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- [00:00]
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- [00:22]
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- [00:52]
Marcus Rogers
knows that if he wants to talk to me, we can have a conversation. It can be private. Nobody has to know. I want to say this from the beginning. This isn't about clicks. It isn't about views. As you guys know, me and Lecrae, we kind of have a history now that's probably going over 10 years. And when I say history, yes, I've been making videos. I think he only responded one time. I think he went live on ig. He was like, I don't care what Marcus Rogers be talking about. It's genuinely because it's not about just doing it because, oh, I don't like Lecrae. I think that Lecrae, I don't think he's a bad person. I think he just doesn't know better. The kind of people that he's around, the ones that are holding him accountable. I think maybe he just doesn't know better. Maybe Philip Anthony Mitchell, you know, can talk to him, have a conversation. But I genuinely just, you know, praying for him. My issue has always been number one. I felt things were off in my spirit. So if you've been following me since my army days, you'll remember, you know, where I was like, ah, some ain't right with the craze, some ain't sitting right in my spirit. And then what? You know, people gave me a lot of grief for it. But then 10 years later, he's confessing that, you know, he was getting high, that he was drinking, that he was going to diddy parties. And so what I felt way back then was the main reason why I'm like, something is off. And there's something that is off with a lot of these people in the Christian music industry.
- [02:10]
Lecrae
What's going on everybody. I'd like to welcome you to another episode of the Deep End. And you've heard or seen a clip. And honestly, before I respond to that, I want to ask you something first. So. So somebody in your life right now, you think they're walking crooked, right? You think something's off with their faith, their character, how they treat people. And you haven't said a word to them. And it's not because you don't care or because no one's watching. And there's no clip in it, and there's no thumbnail, and there's no story that's gonna break loose because you finally told your cousin or your co worker or somebody at your church what you really think about how they're living. But somebody can write a paragraph about the state of my soul and never once sit across the table from me and it'll get more views than a lot of the things they post that month. So let's just be honest about what's actually happening before we get into what's true and what's not true. Cause part of this, not all of it, but part of it is never really about me, right? It's about the fact that I am a big enough name to be worth the post. And I get the argument people make back to me on that, right? I've heard it a hundred times. Lecrae, you got hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people listening to you. And if you're off, then that's hundreds of thousands or millions of people that you could be leading in the wrong direction. And you know, my pastor down the street is only speaking to 200 people and nobody's writing about him. But the stakes aren't the same. And so I get it. I get the logic. Bigger platform, bigger potential for damage, bigger responsibility. And so I'm not going to sit here and pretend like me. Having a public voice does not carry public weight. It does. But watch where that logic takes you if you follow it all the way out, right? Because the Bible never actually hands out a bigger microphone to go after somebody just because their microphone is bigger. A lot of people bring up Matthew 18. Matthew 18 does not have a clause that says unless the person's famous. And if they're famous, then you get to skip steps, you know, 1, 2. And then you can go straight to public exposure. The process that Jesus lays out is go to your brother privately first, just the two of you. And if that doesn't work, then you bring in two others. And if that doesn't work, then it goes to the church. And that process doesn't scale up or down based on your follower count. It scales based on relationship. And that's the part that I think gets skipped over every time. So is there biblical grounds for judging another believer at all? Absolutely, yes. And I'm not going to stand here and pretend that the answer is never judge ever. Because that's not, you know, that's not what the Bible says. Bible doesn't say that either. I mean, you look at first John. It tells us to test the spirits to see if they're from God first. Timothy tells Titus to be able to identify sound doctrine from unsound doctrine. Right. There's real commanded discernment ministry in the church for testing what's taught or watching for wolves, being sober minded about who's actually shaping people's theology. Okay, that's not gossip, that's stewardship. And I'll be honest, I'm guilty.
- [05:46]
Marcus Rogers
Right?
- [05:47]
Lecrae
I've done this. I have a quick story right. There was an artist years ago named Canton Jones. He's still an artist to this day, but Christian, kind of R and B, did a little rap. And I loved his music. But the more I listened to his music, the more I began to question his theology. And then I learned about who his pastor was. And his pastor was somebody that my circle had already decided was a false prophet. And so because of that, my judgment was harsh toward Ken Jones. Right? Like he's a false prophet. And, you know, I threw subtle jabs in songs. If you go listen to a song called Got Paper from my Rebel album, there was some subtle jabs thrown in there. But here's the thing. I had never met this man. I had never sat across the table from Ken Jones. I didn't know anything about him, but I felt comfortable throwing jabs. I felt comfortable with my opinion of him. I did not know him. I didn't know his heart. I didn't know anything about him. And then I meet him. Not only do I come to find out this is a godly man who loves the Lord, who's discipling people, who is a leader. I began to ask him questions about his theological convictions. And he said, oh, I'd never heard this before. Then I talked to him about his pastor. He's like, yo, I never heard this before. He had never heard some of the things that I brought up. He was moving in a direction that he felt made sense. And I had already prejudged this man. I had already casted him aside. I'd already written him off without spending any time getting to know him. After we got to know each other, we got to talk about, he said, man, this is actually convicting. It's giving me a lot to process. And that's the thing, y'.
- [07:39]
Jonathan
All.
- [07:39]
Lecrae
You can't unwind a person's perspective in a second. You can't just chastise them online or throw a jab at them in a song and expect their whole worldview to shift. That's a process. It's a process of being in connection with somebody, working with them, talking through things with them, allowing them to see that you genuinely care about them and you're not just trying to blast them or embarrass them. There's a difference. So there's a difference between testing what somebody teaches, which is public, and that's fair game. I put it out into the world on purpose. And there's a difference between testing what they say and pronouncing on the condition of somebody's heart, like judging their heart, their salvation, whether they're really saved. You look at first Samuel, you know, says that man looks at the outside appearance, but God looks at the heart. You know, Paul's telling the Corinthians. This is one of my favorite. In Corinthians, Paul says not to pronounce judgment before the time. Why? Because the Lord is going to bring to light what's hidden. That's not my judgment to hand out. Right. It's not yours either. You can disagree with what I said, you can disagree with the decision I made. But what you can't do from a distance off of a clip or a song, is tell your audience, you know where I stand with God. When Paul confronts Peter publicly, it's important to know the why. It wasn't because Peter had a big platform. It was because Peter's hypocrisy was happening in public and in front of people, and it was bending the gospel for everybody watching so that confrontation matched the sin. It wasn't some conjured up, manufactured thing because Peter was famous enough to be worth the content. It was legit because he knew Peter. He saw what Peter was doing. And so here's where I land on this specifically. And I'm not. I'm not going to pretend that the person who you saw in the clip, Marcus Rogers, is like some singular villain in my story, because honestly, he's not right. He's not a villain in my story. He's one of a long line of people who've said something like this about me over the last 20 years. I mean, if I literally had a dollar for every person who has built a segment around whether I'm the real deal, whether I'm legit, I could retire off that money. So I'm using his name name here because it's the one you already know. It's the one that has traction. It's not because I've got something unique against Marcus Rogers. That's actually part of my answer for why him and I have never sat down and talked. It was never an issue for me to sit down and talk with him because it was never personal enough. Right. It was never like, I don't know him. So on my end, it's not that deep that I need to sit down with Marcus and isolate a conversation.
- [10:40]
Jonathan
I.
- [10:41]
Lecrae
Because there's so many people who feel this way about me. So it's about a pattern, not a person. And I know what some of y' all are already thinking, because people are probably going to say it to me directly. If Matthew 18 is your standard, then why don't you just call Marcus, get in a room with him, handle it privately like you're telling the rest of us to do? And I hear that, and that is a fair question, and I'm not going to dodge it. All right, here's my honest answer. Okay? Matthew 18 was written for a relationship, not a broadcast. So Matthew 18 assumes that you know the person or you're at least in position to reach the person. I do not have a private line to every person who has built some kind of argument around me. If I try to sit down with everybody who's made a claim about my walk with God, that's gonna be my whole job. Like, I would not have time to actually do the work they're accusing me of not doing if I'm addressing everything they're saying. So I'm not gonna pretend that I can personally have that conversation with everybody. I can't, and I won't. But I do think there's a standard that I can actually ask for. I can ask this from Marcus, and I can ask it for anybody doing this kind of content. I'm sure he's gonna make a response video. That's his prerogative. It's fine. But here's what I would say. It's not never say anything about a public figure or me. It's this, disagree with our actions. Don't diagnose me. Don't diagnose anybody. You can say I think their decision was wrong. You can say I think that partnership sends the wrong message. You can say I don't agree with how he handled that. That is fair. That is public. That is on the table. I put my life in the public, and I don't get to act like it's off limits. But what's not fair is skipping past the action or the decision and going straight to a verdict on my heart or my salvation or whether I'm really saved or whether anybody's really saved. Because, you know, at the end of the day, one of those, you can actually see the other one. Nobody watching a clip has access to. Not you, not me. Like, I don't have access to know about your position, your salvation, your heart. Nobody except God. And so I want to say this plainly, because I don't think it cost me anything to say it. I think. And I hope that his heart in all this is to protect people. I don't think that most people who do this kind of content are waking up, trying to destroy folks. I really don't. I don't think Marcus Rogers gets up and he's like, oh, I'm gonna destroy this person. I think, honestly, a lot of them genuinely believe they're standing guard over the flock. I think they're trying to protect people. And honestly, I praise God for that instinct. Cause it should be a thing. We should have people who are like, hold on, hold on, hold on. The church needs people who care enough to say something when they see danger. I just think it's wrong about me being honest, wrong about what he's seeing. I think he's wrong about the conclusion. And wrong doesn't mean he's malicious or evil or vindictive or we're against each other. I don't think that. Matter of fact, I'd rather assume the best of somebody's motive and be wrong about that, then assume the worst and be wrong about that. So that's what I want to get into today. That's my long kind of opening, you know, not just. Here's what Marcus said, and here's my defense. I want to ask what.
- [14:29]
Jonathan
What.
- [14:29]
Lecrae
What we even think we're doing when we do this to each other. And. And honestly, whether it's discernment or whether it's just gotten really, you know, good at dressing it up like discernment. Because I can say, man, the spirit of God told me this. The spirit of God is.
- [14:43]
Jonathan
Is.
- [14:44]
Lecrae
Is telling me this. And it's like, no one can fight that. Well, was that the spirit of God? Was it? Or was that your assumption of the spirit's leading? Right. Because if you're blaming it on the Spirit. And the Spirit is not being endorsed by the scripture. Come on now, fam. Come on now. You know, you walk up to a married woman and you say, the Holy Spirit told me that you're my wife. I'm telling you the Holy Spirit. Was that the Holy Spirit? She's already married, right? You can't blame that on the Spirit. And now it's like, we can't push back on that because you said the Spirit of God said it. So, you know, again, I just think that that's kind of where I wanted to begin this conversation.
- [15:32]
Progressive Insurance Announcer
This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? Well, with the name your price tool from Progressive, you can find options that fit your budget and potentially lower your bills. Try it@progressive.com Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Price and coverage match limited by state law. Not available in all states.
- [15:54]
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- [16:25]
Lecrae
You know, I actually, if I'm being honest, I appreciate when people approach me in public and tell me their issues. That's actually my favorite thing when they come up to me specifically, not when they tell everybody else or tell somebody behind my back. I actually can't stand when people have issues with me and they never tell me I can't stand it. But. But a lot of times people have issues with me publicly, but they've never talked to me privately. And I'm not saying they're against talking to me privately, but they're just like, they want to address my heart and my motives. One of the biggest things I can't stand is when people assume motive when they say, I know why you're doing this. You just want to be famous. You just want to be accepted. How can you know the motive of man? You can't, and I can't. So some people want me to say, Marcus Rogers or anyone like Marcus Rogers is just doing this for clicks. They're just doing this for clicks. I can't say that for a fact. I Don't know his motive. What I'm going to assume is that he genuinely wants to protect people, and that's his passion. That's why he does it. Right. People who come to my defense are like, man, these dudes just using your name for clickbait. I mean, using my name will generate more views for sure. But can I say for certainty that's why he's doing it? I can't. I can't. I'm sure it's been done by people, but I have no insight into their heart or their motive to be able to make that assumption. So what I want to assume is that man, Marcus Rogers cares about the flock. He loves people. He wants to protect people, and he feels like it is his mission and it is his job to speak up on things that he sees inconsistent with scripture. I'm okay with that. I support that. I actually struggle when it turns into, you know, why someone is doing the things they're doing.
- [18:21]
Jonathan
You are.
- [18:22]
Lecrae
You know, we can judge the fruit, but we can't judge the heart. You know what I'm saying? So, yeah, I think there's legitimate reason for that. So I want to look at. I want to look at some clips and then I want to, like, address them, right? Let's. Let's just say what it is. And if he's right, I will own it. I will admit it. If it's off, I will say it's off. If there's something I can learn from it, I'm down. If not, I'm going to push back. And it's not anything anti with him. It's just. It's where my headspace is at. All right? So here's the thing, man. I have been the type of person that learned truth and wanted to make sure that I protected people from hearing false truth. I've been the type person that has watched a person judge their heart, judge their character, and told people to stay away from them. Not stay away from their teaching, not stay away from their type of interpretation of scripture, but from them because they're evil. You know, when I think about. I remember I was at a church and I was asked to perform and I did my performance for the youth group. And this was in the Virginia area, Maryland, Virginia area. I did my performance for the youth group. This is decades ago. And I wanted to go to the main service because the youth group event was on a Saturday night, and I woke up in the morning to go to main service. You know, it was a pretty prominent church in the DMV area. And I go to the service. And I mean, what I heard the pastor preaching to me was heretical. I mean, it was just. It was heretical. It was health, wealth, prosperity. You know, if you trust in Jesus, he's going to bless you tenfold, give your money. And I think it was wrong. Now, was it wrong because he was evil and self seeking and was money grubbing, or was it wrong because he misinterpreted the scriptures and really believed that God wanted to bless people financially for their trust in him? I don't know. And that's the I don't know. But let me tell you what I did in my young twenties. I wrote him a scathing letter, Scathing letter. I told him he was a wolf. I told him he was a wolf in sheep's clothing, he's out to destroy the flock, that what he's doing is terrible. And I did not have the courage to walk up to this man and ask him questions. What I did was I wrote him this scathing note. I shook his hand and put it in his hand and I walked out the door like, yeah, take that, buddy. What did I suppose was gonna happen? Honestly, if I'm being honest, when the scripture talks about gently restoring people, that's the opposite of what that was, right? Like, number one, I don't think it was about him at all. I think it was about me. I think it was about me feeling justified, like I stood my ground for Jesus. It was about my own self righteousness. It wasn't about him. It wasn't about, how do I help change, address, attack, any of those things. It was, I want to feel like a soldier for Jesus. So I'm going to put this joke on blast and hand him this, this 95th theses. I'm going to nail it to his church wall. And honestly, if it was about him, I think it could have went like this. I think I could have said, hey, Pastor, would you mind if I got a word with you? So I listened to your sermon and I don't know your heart or what you've learned or any of those things. I just know some of the things I heard were concerning to me. And I don't know if you have the time to help me understand point A, B, C. Here's some notes I took. You said this. How does that coincide with what scripture says here? And then let him speak. Now, what could have happened in that conversation is he could have said, well, young man, this is what the scripture says. And he goes into an apologetic for his theology and then we have a little back and forth, and then I walk away feeling like, okay, he just doesn't get it. He's not. But more than the scathing letter, I guarantee you he'll probably feel a sense of, like, man, that young man knew his scriptures. He was polite, he was gentle. He was kind. He challenged me on some stuff. I never thought about it. And that's. That's how it changes. So back to the Canton Jones conversation, right? Like, Canton and I became really good friends because he appreciated me addressing him and talking to him about his views and his beliefs. And then we became friends. We even, like, from then, it was like, well, we can collaborate. We can work on stuff together. Now we. And then it turned into me even thinking like, oh, shoot, maybe his pastor is not malicious at all. Maybe his pastor is not some kind of wolf. Maybe his pastor legitimately believes the things that he's saying now, they're wrong. And I'll just tell you, one of the things he said, to be clear, is that Jesus was a man. Like, we're all men, and we're all little Jesuses, and essentially, he doesn't have any extra power that we can't access, right? He had the spirit. We got the spirit. We can do everything that Jesus did. Him being the son of God, we're all sons of God, so we're on equal playing field with Jesus. He is not like, messianic.
- [24:37]
Marcus Rogers
We don't.
- [24:38]
Lecrae
You know, the scripture says we kneel before him like he's the Savior, that we're not on the same level as him. We're co heirs because of him, but he's to be worshiped. We're not whole nother conversation, end of the day. Because I realized and had this discussion with Cannon man, we were able to dialogue better, and we've been friends to this day. And also I was leading a small group, and I had a young girl in my small group, and the young girl in my small group came from this particular church, and she was like, I don't know if he's wrong or not. I just know when I heard you speak and this pastor that you're under speak, I connected with this more. And over time when we got to unpack some of the false views that she had that her pastor giving us. But if I would have just ripped that bandage off and said, everything he teaches is false, he's evil, he's terrible. I mean, I could have said, man, his teaching is false, right? But to go against his character, when she's seen this man feed folks Care for folks, take care of folks. It makes all difference in the world. And she became a faithful member of my small group. Watched my kids, just an incredible young lady in the faith. And then here's the kicker. The kicker is, years later, this particular pastor has repented for some of his teachings. He said, I came to see that what I believe was wrong. Well, now, now, again, I'm not saying that it's all that this is a fraud or it's not a fraud and whatever. I'm just saying if what he's saying is true, then he had misinterpreted things the whole time. He wasn't malicious, he wasn't evil. He wasn't trying to manipulate people out of money. He really had a false perspective on the scriptures. And Satan uses that to mislead folks. So I just think that, man, I didn't have access to this pastor. I could not have addressed this pastor, couldn't have said anything to him. But I was able to connect with people in his flock and have conversations with them instead of ripping the bandage off and telling them that he's false and they're false for preaching, for pushing him. It just changed the whole narrative and the relationships were better because of it. So I've been here, I've been in this place, and I understand it. I understand that passion to. Another thing I think is I used to think it was youthful zeal. A lot of times when you're young in your faith. I'm going to go on a limb here. This is where I get in trouble. When you're zealous and you're passionate, you want to kick down doors for Jesus, right? That's the way you think. You're supposed to operate for Christ. And as you mature, as you grow, you begin to realize more fruit is gained by knocking on doors in asking, do they need anything? And can you bring them something instead of kicking their door down. More is gained by saying, hey, how you doing? I'm your neighbor, and da, da, da, da, if there's anything I can do for you, watch your kids, blah, blah. More is gained there. People say, lecrae, why are you doing these songs with secular artists and killer Mike? And he hasn't ti and look at their posts and look at the stuff that they do. And man, I'm in LA at the Grammys with, with Mike and his wife. And you know, Shay says, his wife, Shay, she says Mike ain't been to church in a while, but he said if he ever go back, it's going to be with you lecrae like, to me, that's fruit to me, that's fruit to me. It's not like I kicked his door down and I told him, mike, you're a sinner in the hands of an angry God and he's going to crush you if you don't repent right now. Like, I think people really believe that that is the way to be aggressive for the kingdom. And I'm not saying there's no place for that ever. That's not what I'm saying. I'm just saying in general, I see Jesus reserve a lot of that energy for the religious community, the folks who think they already got it figured out. For those who are like far, he's very gentle, very kind, like prostitute about to be stoned, he goes and protects her. He doesn't say, hey, you know why they got these stones, right? Because you wiling, you know, you better repent. That's why they got the stones. No, he challenges the religious community and then he grabs her up and is like, yo, you good? You straight? Hey, listen, you don't want this life. Go and sin no more. There's a difference. Hey, tax collector, you want to roll with us?
- [30:14]
Jonathan
What?
- [30:15]
Lecrae
What is that? It wasn't a blast. So he does blast the religious community for sure. And I do think there's a place for critique. I just think that walking in love is necessary. People get tired of getting beat up. They get tired of it, right? I think there's a season for certain styles of communication and truth bearing. There's a season for it for everybody, right? Like some of us need to hear that we are wilding and God has been too good and we got to cut it out. And some of us need to hear like, hey man, I love you, I'm with you, and let me walk with you. There's a, there's a thin line. Not even thin line. To me it's a thick line between being led by the spirit and just trying to be right and just trying to look self righteous. And to me it feels, again, I can't judge the motives and the hearts of people, but to me it feels very self righteous to want to put someone on blast versus like offer to pray for them. Say that you don't agree with their actions. Say that you don't agree with their stances, with what they preached or what they said or with what they did. But to say like, you know, oh, I see Kirk, you know, grinding on stage and doing a dance. Now we saying he's carnal and he's worldly, and he wants to be accepted by the world. And it's like, that's. I know Kirk, and I've had plenty private conversations with him. The man is in love with Jesus. Like, he has moments, like we all do, of, like, oh, okay, maybe. Maybe my fun crossed the line. Doesn't mean I don't love God. Maybe me having a good time, you know, went a little too far. And you wouldn't have done that. Well, you can say that, say, hey, Kirk, I don't think I would have done that, and that's fine. But you can't judge the man's character and his heart and his salvation off of that. I think that's crazy, especially when I know him. And I've had plenty private conversations with Kirk to know. This is a man after God's own heart. This is a man who lays on line. Now, he's not perfect. He got his struggles like we all do, but he owns them. He admits them, and then he makes decisions that you may not agree with. You know, he's made decisions that I didn't agree with. And guess what? I got a relationship with him. I called him, I said, yo, my man, what are we doing with this? What's this? I think a lot of times we're afraid of losing a relationship, especially with somebody that is prominent or powerful or we can benefit from, or they seem like they won't hear us anyway because we're just small. The way I felt about that Pastor. So it's better to address people in love or just find a way to just be like, hey, man, here's my thoughts. You know, people want to have these exclusive, private conversations. Send a dm, send a message in love. Not some scathing, hey, I don't know you, but I think you're wrong here. I've gotten plenty of messages, and I'll be honest with you, I've gotten plenty of messages from people over the years who had very kind things to say and challenged me as well. And I heard those far more than I heard any of the scathing ones that said something like, you're a wolf. You need to repent. There were others that said, man, I really appreciate this about you.
- [33:45]
Marcus Rogers
This.
- [33:46]
Lecrae
I think you're doing this, this. And I don't know your motive, and I don't know this. This concerned me. I don't know why you did this or what was the thought behind this. Can you. You know, here's what I'm looking at in Scripture, and this is what I think, man. It was helpful it was helpful for me and I grew from it.
- [34:04]
Progressive Insurance Announcer
So this episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? Well, with the name your price tool from Progressive, you can find options that fit your budget and potentially lower your bills. Try it@progressive.com progressive casualty insurance company and affiliates price and coverage match limited by state law. Not available in all states.
- [34:27]
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- [34:56]
Lecrae
under license Anyway, let's look at some of these critiques.
- [35:01]
Jonathan
Showcase and a text went out to all of us was like, hey, tonight we really want to focus on our music just kind of being at the forefront in between songs. Let's not get real preachy. Let's not do the whole make some noise for Jesus kind of thing. If you really want to be impactful, get on the ground and talk to people. That's what I've been doing all week. So I got this text and I was in the car with Trip and Andy Mineo and I said, how do y' all feel about this? Trip? He had some struggles with it and he said he wanted some clarity and I said, I don't like this. To me, it feels like now we have people from outside of our normal Christian space in front of us and I feel like we're acting as if we don't know how to talk to nonbelievers. Like we never done it before. I think we're overthinking it and I think that we have an opportunity tonight with a room full of non believers to be even more explicit about the gospel, because that's what we want to reach them. We had a meeting and we all around the table. Ben was there too, and I think you said, does anybody have an issue with the strategy that we want to do tonight? My beloved brother Andy Mineo literally said, KB has an issue with it.
- [36:16]
Lecrae
I looked at this man and said,
- [36:18]
Jonathan
bro, we went and did the concert and two things happened. Number one, there was nothing but Christians in the room.
- [36:26]
Lecrae
Nothing but Christians in that blood. Wasn't a single non Believer in the room, who is KB And Lecrae. I ain't going to see them.
- [36:33]
Marcus Rogers
So, you know, you could go listen to the whole interview for yourself. But what my point is with showing you that right is two things, right? And you can kind of sum up the video with this is in the beginning, it was never about, hey, you know, I wasn't even. I didn't even have a platform. But I felt something was off in the spirit. I felt like, okay, I feel like this guy is ministering, but there's sin and there's compromise. So several years later, over a decade later, he's coming out and he's confessing. Like, yeah, man, I was drunk. Yeah, man. I think he says in my Pill Diddy parties, a lot of different things. Cool. Glad he confessed. But the point is, what the Holy Spirit was showing me back then was true. Okay? And then that's one reason why we didn't want to have a conversation. So people like, oh, you're crazy. You're crazy. The Holy Spirit didn't tell you that? No, it was true. And then the other thing that I was seeing is like, man, it seems like these guys are watering down, right? And they're not being bold. You're supposed to be unashamed. But every time y' all get a chance on the red carpet, Andy Minnie on Fox News, right? The Grammys, it's like, y' all not bold.
- [37:36]
Lecrae
So there's a lot there. One of the things that he says is that he says, the Spirit was telling me something was off. And then he later comes out and says he was drunk and so on and so forth. The timeline between that south by Southwest show and me, kind of. Not kind of, but me departing and going astray from my walk is about. Let's see, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16 is about seven years. So I hadn't gone astray for seven years after that moment. Whatever he assumed the Spirit was telling him was not true. Because, as a matter of fact, I was more evangelistic, more passionate in that moment, in that time period than I ever was. What was going on was it wasn't a watering down. If you listen to what KB said, he said that I've said, hey, get on the ground and talk to people if you want to be evangelistic. That's what I've been doing all week. What I was doing was on the ground praying with people, passing out church clothes, CDs. I had a long conversation with Bob and his drummer. That's what sparked all this, is because, man, I was Able to have a convo about Jesus with Bob, which led to us further doing some stuff down the line. But the reality was I was trying to test the theory, right? I've been reading Nancy Pearcey's Total Truth. I have been trying to wrestle with man, how do I navigate drawing people in with the art and allowing them to get a. To enjoy and appreciate the art and then later being impacted by the truth in the art. Maybe the songs in and of themselves do enough talking to where we don't have to have many sermonettes in between every song, because that's what we used to do. We used to have many sermonettes. I also heard a Tim Keller sermon, and he said, men always speak as if there's nonbelievers in the room. I was not. And I mean, just being candid, I wasn't convinced that some of my brothers could do that. I wasn't convinced that some of my brothers could address a room full of non believers. I think they felt confident that they could. But you also have to remember I was the one being put in positions and places and still have been on stages at bet on stages at all these different places where I was navigating these places and spaces. And so I'm having, like, real missiology understanding. I'm a missionary on the ground now. I'm having conversations about the Lord for sure. But when I'm on a stage, I'm giving them the music and the art so they can appreciate it and say, dang, this is dope versus having an areopagus moment, a Mars Hill moment, every time on the stage. I'm not saying either one is wrong. I'm just saying this is the route that I was saying. I think this is the route we should take, y'.
- [40:44]
Podcast Guest
All.
- [40:46]
Lecrae
Because typically we would get up there and we would say, man, unashamed. And then we would get into Romans, and then we would so on and so forth and give sermons. And I think that's effective. I think that'. Sy. But at the same time, I was processing. Well, if you got a group of non believers who are coming in off the street like, yo, I just want to go to this show tonight, and then they get a sermon that doesn't speak to them culturally, is it effective? Now, I'm not saying I was right. I'm just saying that my motive was not. I wasn't off. I wasn't drunk. The spirit did not tell you that I was off. And that's what I want to. It's like you've assumed it wasn't the spirit. I don't know how else to address it. Like, it's just not true. Now, if in 2017, 2016, the spirit of God was telling you, man, Craig tripping, then I would have been like, man, come holler at me. Pray for me, because you would have been right. Matter of fact, I had a friend who had a dream about me in that time period, and he reached out, and I was like, oh, shoot. He was dead on. But in 2011, 2012, no, it's just not the case. So I think that that is where I begin to wrestle is like, man, I don't know what the motive is there. I don't know. I think he's sincere. I don't think he would just sit there and lie. Right. I think he believes that that's what the spirit of God was telling him. I assume it is, but it's just not the case. So now people want to say, water down. It wasn't a watering down. It wasn't a I want to be accepted by the world, so let me water this down. It was, what does strategy look like? People don't understand. I was doing Tim Keller's courses in New York, you know, Gospel in Life and studying with actors and ballerinas who are on Broadway and in major movies and just trying to process how. How do we function and live out our faith amongst the modern world. You know, I think of, you know, Andy Crouch, culture making, and, you know, praxis, and some of those people that I was in conversation with during this time period that were opening my eyes to new ways of doing things, and that was important to me was, wait, am I an explicit Christian artist? Or I'm an implicit Christian artist? And I'm trying to process that, but I have to process it in front of the world. So what my motive was was to reach the world. What you're seeing is a muddy, messy processing of all of that. What would accountability have looked like for us at that point in time? Well, if you notice, KB said Andy had to kind of push him to say what he needed to say. So even he didn't feel comfortable publicly challenging my vantage point or my perspective. I think what would have been helpful is for there to be voices who could challenge my vantage point, who felt comfortable doing it and not just going with the flow. I never said, hey, I'm the leader. What I say goes, y'. All. I think that was perceived. You know, I definitely was a leader. I definitely was gonna make a decision, and you could disagree or agree with it, right? We could dialogue about it, and I would debate and probably argue with you through it to get clarity, but it doesn't mean my way or the highway. There's been plenty of times where people have wrestle with me about my perspective. I also think the church just never embraced Christian hip hop. That was always a part of the problem. We were always like, this side project for the church. So the church felt like, oh, these gospel artists, they sing at our church. They're part of our flock. We got to take care of them. We got to lead them, we got to guide them, give them instruction. And for Christian hip hop, we were like parachurch members. It was kind of like, oh, yeah, cool. Salvation army, do whatever you guys want to do out there. The church never put their arms around us and says, hey, y', all, if y' all are gonna do this, here's what I need you to process. So that's why I was actively looking for ministries and churches who had an arm that sent people out into the
- [45:27]
Podcast Guest
world
- [45:29]
Lecrae
as workplace marketplace missionaries, because the church didn't really care. So a lot of the accountability that we wanted wasn't offered. We wanted it. Matter of fact, we moved Reach Records to Atlanta to be connected to a church because that was so important for us. We didn't want to be rogue ministers and missionaries. So I just think the church can do a better job of embracing young content creators, artists, and saying, hey, these are people who have a voice out there in society, and I need to make sure that I've got shepherding in place for them. Right? Like, they have a unique opportunity here. This person has 50,000 followers on social media. Do I. Am I speaking to them in a way to help them shepherd and steward what they have? And I think the church can do a better job at that instead of just being like, man, it's crazy out here. Content creators, artists, singers, you know, it's like, no. Like, some special care needs to be taken place because these people have a voice in society. So what does that look like? Let's check out this clip here and see what we got going on.
- [46:48]
Podcast Guest
I'm probably gonna make somebody mad with this one, but is it Bible, though?
- [46:53]
Jonathan
Yes.
- [46:53]
Lecrae
You and your wife.
- [46:56]
Podcast Guest
A man recently stopped a famous gospel artist, Kirk Franklin, simply to let him know that he's a false prophet and that Kirk and his wife are probably on their way to hell. Now, as a man, I have my own opinions about how this whole thing could went down. But as a man of God, is he Bible, though? And actually, the answer is not as simple as Christians normally try to make it because the Bible absolutely includes public confrontation. Nathan confronted David, Paul confronted Peter, and Jesus was always letting the Pharisees have it. Public rebuke is Bible, but now who's doing the confronting? The New Testament consistently pictures correction as one done in the context of relationship accountability and restoration. Not random strangers just walking up to celebrities. What community are you even going to restore Kirk to now? Could God send a stranger? Absolutely. But if somebody says God sent me, the Bible tells us not to automatically just take that. It says test that. Test everything. Hold fast to what is good. But as someone who is a public figure themselves, I do want to say to all of my future public rebukers, Jesus said, first remove the log out of your own eye. Then you will see clearly how to remove the speck from your brothers. Now, first off, brother again points to more intimate relationship knowledge and accountability structure. Sometimes the phenomenon of celebrity makes us think we really know somebody, that we somehow see the fruit of their love and the totality of their walk and the sincerity in their prayers. And I don't care what you say, you cannot adequately discern a person's full life, heart and warfare from your phone. You don't know the man. But it also says, then you will see clearly. Maybe the mark of spiritual maturity is not that you confront people more, but that you confront people better. If my approach consistently leaves people feeling hardened and not helped, then maybe I need to ask myself if I'm seeing as clearly as I think I am. There is Holy Spirit courage to confront, but also Holy Spirit wisdom to actually help. And you can be the judge whether my man's approach to this exuded wisdom or just enthusiasm and opportunity. So is it Bible, though? On one side, correction is biblical. On the other side, discernment is biblical. On both sides, humility is biblical.
- [49:31]
Lecrae
The podcast is over. That's. Jonathan said everything that I would, I would have said. I mean, end of the day, like, confronting people, biblical, confronting them better, you know, I mean, that's it. Like, if I, like, I went to a concert and I saw a guy outside rebuking people, telling them they're going to hell. I interrupted the conversation and I said, do you know this man? He's like, no. And I said, I talked to the guy who he was arguing with, and I said, what's your name? He tells me his name. And then I began to say, well, my brother, if I invite you to dinner to have a conversation about your faith and lack thereof, are you down? And he's like, absolutely. And I Said, I talked to the street preacher. I said, you see how easy that was? I didn't have to tell him he's going to hell and repent. I just said, hey, man, can I buy you a meal and talk to you about what you believe? And he was down, right? We could have went to IHOP instead of screaming at him. And that's, I mean, that's really what it comes down to. And I think people would disagree with Jonathan, which is crazy. But we do feel like social media allows us to skip steps. We think because people have more followers that there's a. We don't have to follow Matthew 18. Let's get a little biblical. Okay, Let me teach for a second. Matthew 18, you look at it starts with, talk to your brother. Go talk to him privately. Right? Don't embarrass him. Hey, man, I think you wilding. I don't agree with what you did. If he's like, I don't agree with you, okay? That's why in the Old Testament it gives descriptors for one on one confrontation. It's like, hey, be careful, you know, like, look at the speck in your eye. Because if you judge him in your wrong, whatever was coming to him is coming to you. So if the punishment is death for his sin and you accuse him of it, but come to find out you're wrong, you die. So the Bible's actually telling us like, hey, be sure you know what you're saying when you say it, because you're going to incur the same judgment. So now Matthew 18 is really trying to get us to like, not. It's trying to get us to slow this process down. What social media is trying to get us to speed it up. Matthew 18 is trying to get us to say, hey, start with your brother. He doesn't listen if you say, hey, man, you know, the way you're treating your wife is not okay. He's like, man, bump, you stay out of my business. This is my marriage. All right, cool. Let's go get the homies. Come back with two brothers. Hey, man, we all agree the way you're treating your wife is disrespectful. And he's like, man, y' all stay out of my business, okay? We tried to do it this way. Let's go get the church. Now we got different members of the community.
- [52:42]
Marcus Rogers
And back.
- [52:42]
Lecrae
You gotta remember when the time of this is written, the churches are not 2,000 member congregations. Right. They're small communities. Right, Right. So now we got the whole community. These are people that you're eating with consistently, you're walking with consistently. This is your community. This is your tribe. This is your social network, so to speak. That's another issue today because we are so isolated. We don't even feel the effects of this because we're not doing community right. Whole nother conversation. Now the whole community comes to you, says, yo, my man, you not treating her right. If you tell your friend, the two others and now the whole community, y' all stay out of my business. Oh, let him go. He's a heathen. He ain't trying to hear nothing. We the. The point of this community is for us to lean on each other to be integrated. He don't want to be integrated. He don't want to lean on. He don't want to be the eyes or the arm of the body. He want to do rogue stuff. Let him go. He doing his heathen movement. It doesn't say embarrass the man. It says, yo, he wilding yo congregation, community. We know what he own now. The goal is for him to be restored to the community. So if he don't feel ostracized, he's not going to want to be restored. So now there's these layers of challenge or rebuke to this individual so that they don't get it wrong. It's not a write them off today. It's a one layer, two layer, three layer. And then it says, if he can be, then we hope that he's gently restored, not violently or embarrassingly restored like we said. All right, you want some heathen stuff, we gonna move away from you. But we want you back. We want you. That's the goal. Not to embarrass you, not to put you on blast, not to shame you.
- [54:38]
Marcus Rogers
Right?
- [54:40]
Lecrae
So what we've done is we skipped a step. We skipped all the steps. We said, hey, the Bible wants us to slow this process down, but social media tells us, speed it up. Yo, saw Kirk yell at a dude on the street. He's worldly. Get rid of him. Wait a minute. We skipped all the steps. The Bible telling you, slow down, you might be wrong. We don't have full context. We got a clip of the video, and look at us. Wrote him off. He's done. We're doing the very opposite of what God has called us to do. And in doing so, we become divided. And now we're not walking unified. Were using division as clickbait again. I'm assuming people are not doing it as clickbait, but it is. It's clickbait I mean, if we think about it, we are in a space and time where we're desensitized to gossip, right? There's accounts that we follow that specialize in gossip. Like, that's the goal. And I. You know, I'll be candid. I follow some of them not because I want the gossip, but because there's. There's also, like, every so often, there's also cultural insight that I gather from this. I try not to feed into the gossip or the slander. It's the cultural insight that I'm looking for. Like, why are people thinking this way? Why are they responding this way? How are they processing this way? But I'm also looking at it, understanding that this is a worldly way of navigating life, that negativity. Like, we're always asking, where's the positive news? People are creating accounts, social media accounts, just for positive things because the negativity fuels our insight in our. In our dopamine. And we're. We're all rubbernecking on the social media highway to see how bad the accident is. Ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh. And. And it's sad because we've literally begun to copy the world. You want to know what carnality is? What worldliness is, is emulating the world's obsession with negative news, emulating their obsession with, let me tell something negative or slanderous. Let me find the most chaotic, terrible thing to put before folks so I can talk about it and disturb folks, not to encourage people. I mean, we can do it in the name of we want to warn folks or so on and so forth, but a lot of it is gossip. It's glorified Christian gossip. It's glorified Christian negativity for those of us who are drama and trauma junkies. And we're feeding off of this, and we. We want to know. And we're desensitized to it because it's become commonplace, right? We don't even realize it's commonplace. And I'm talking to myself as well, right? Like. Like, we're not grieved. I'm gonna say we're not. But people are not grieved at the crumbling of Maverick City. They're like, ooh, what?
- [58:12]
Jonathan
Look at this.
- [58:12]
Lecrae
What's going on over there? Why did this happen? What did happen over here? We're not. We're not like, man, Lord, these people were using their gifts to encourage souls around the world. And Satan just came in and divided that thing up and scattered it. Like, we're not grieved at that. We're wondering like we're trying to exploit all the chaos around it. I on the other hand, and this is not a self righteous moment because I'm just as simple. I am, I'm the chief of sinners, but I crave nuance, understanding and clear narratives. And so that's one of the reasons why I started the deep end is because there wasn't a lot of that. And so for me it's like, hey, how can I did an episode with Naomi Rain? Let's, let's. We're not looking for gotcha moments. We're not looking for the T. We're looking for the humanity, for the spirit, for the truth, for the hurt in all of it and help us to understand how to be more faithful with what we have going on. We don't look at David's failure and misfortune and as tea. We look at it as insight as to how we can grow and not make the same mistakes. We look at it as insight and wisdom to warn people about no matter how high you are, you can fall. And I just think, man, we are becoming carnal and worldly by trying to emulate the drama and the tea. Now I'm definitely going to address things that happen in culture and society, but not because I got some, I got the inside scoop. Wait till you hear this. But more so because I'm like, man, y' all are all talking about this, but have you considered you've heard it said. But I say to you, right, you've heard it said that Drake and Kendrick, boom bop bing. But what's really happening behind the scenes? I did an episode on that. Watch it. It's great. So yeah, I do think that there's
- [60:31]
Marcus Rogers
some
- [60:34]
Lecrae
claims that become just slanderous for the sake of slander.
- [60:39]
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- [61:01]
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- [61:31]
Lecrae
And speaking of claims, let's look at a couple more from my brother, Marcus Rogers.
- [61:39]
Marcus Rogers
You look at this podcast of, you know, Lecrae and Will Smith, and it's like, people are just cool. Oh, you know, I've. I've read the Quran, I've read this, and I've read all that. And, you know, I'm just, you know, just kind of, like, just blurring the lines. And. And then for you to sit there and not be like, no, there's one God, there's one way, and give him the gospel, you know? Now, I do understand that people move differently. Me and Lecrae come from two completely different worlds. And I remember. I remember seeing Lecrae do this video many years ago. He was like, if you guys could heal people, why are you still wearing glasses? You know, like, mocking healing ministry. And I took issue with that. I remember, you know, when they were talking about, we're unashamed, we're unashamed. But then they kept folding, you know, on the red carpet. I'm like, these guys aren't really unashamed. Like, you're saying something that you're not really practicing.
- [62:36]
Lecrae
I will be honest with you, man. It's difficult to. It's difficult to parse the. I guess, like, the accusatory language he uses, and then at the same time, say, but he means well. The accusatory language is like. It's like, you failed. You weren't unashamed. You're not living that. You know, you got Will here, why you didn't do this? And it's less inquiry and more assumption, more accusation. So here's what I will say, though. Have I been in spaces and places where, man, I dropped the ball in terms of what I could have done for the kingdom? Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, every day. Literally every day, you know, like, Will Smith. Bump Will Smith. Like, let's talk about the Chipotle worker. Let's talk about the person sitting next to me on a flight. I drop that ball all the time, right? But that is where God is so patient and gracious. And I'm not saying abuse that or say, well, God's patient. Keep it pushing. But I'm saying, is that, man,
- [64:20]
Advertisement Voice
what
- [64:20]
Lecrae
a. I would live in legalism and condemnation if I just judged myself for every time I did not do the thing that I felt like I could have done, right? I lean on the reality that there's new mercy every day. I lean on the reality that, man, I could have done or I should have done or I should have said, but I didn't. I can't beat myself up for those particular things. I can grow from them, I can learn from them and I can employ different strategy next time around. But what I think is happening for Marcus in this particular context is that there is a philosophy of ministry that we differ on. And because we differ, he's saying there's an assumption that his perspective is the right one. And I'm sure he's saying, no, my perspective is scripture. And because his worldview is that the way he's seeing this is right. If something is done that does not line up with the way he thinks it should be, they're wrong. They're wrong. And in certain cases that's true, right? Like some things are sin. They just, they're wrong. Like, it is wrong, wrong, wrong to get into an argument with your spouse and hit them in the face. There's no argument about that. There's no, like, well, no, it's sin. It's wrong, it's wrong. It's wrong to be upset and pop off on somebody and call them out their name. It's wrong. It's sin. It is not sin to have a conversation with a non Christian, listen to their worldview and then not tell them that Jesus died and resurrected for their sins. That's not sin, now is it? Was that the wisest decision? Maybe not. Maybe it was in that moment. What's the broader context? Also, Will and I have spent hours together. Will invited me to his house to work on music with him. There are so many layers and components to the dynamic. Will's son and I text consistently, right? Like there's so many dynamics and components there. One is, I'll just be candid. Like one is, this is not a, this is not a seal the deal dynamic. This is a relationship here. This is a relational play, I should say, not a relationship. Not like me and Will talk every day. But I think oftentimes we think of the gospel as like, I got to seal the deal. To me, that's more self righteous than it is care for that particular person. Like, care for that person is not like, I'm about to jab you up real quick. That conversation from my vantage point was more about inquiry. It was more about understanding him and getting him comfortable. That man's an actor. It took. You don't know it, but I know it because I've had conversations with him. And now he may never want to meet again. But it took a while for him to become his real self in that conversation. He is so skilled at turning it on. It took a while for his guard to be let down. Do you not think he'd have been able to just navigate? Or like, it wasn't. We were not having a interpersonal conversation. He's well aware there's cameras everywhere. Well aware there's a whole crew of people just sitting around the whole situation. Like, it took a while for his guard to go down and realize, man, I can trust this person. He's not trying to jab me. He's not trying to embarrass me. He's not just trying to proselytize me. He really wants to know me. And I did. I wasn't enamored. I wasn't like Will Smith sitting right here, this crazy. I was like, man, let's get to the root of it. Let's talk about it. He knows where I stand. He knows I'm a Christian. His ex wife has proselytized this man for years, and he wrote a song called Holy Roller because he was so mad at how much she was talking about Jesus to him. So it's not as if he's unaware. You know, his grandmother's proselytized him. It's not as if he's unaware now. Could I have. Was there a moment and opportunity that I missed? Maybe. Maybe doesn't make me less. Doesn't make me not unashamed of the gospel. It just means, oh, there may have been a window I missed. Shows my humanity. But what about the windows I don't miss? What about those? I'm not gonna sit here and talk about them all because I don't want my right hand to know my left hand is doing. But what about the windows I don't miss? What about the opportunities that I. The shots I take and they go in. What about those? The other thing that really bothered me about what he said, what Marcus said was, and it's not just a Marcus thing, again, y', all, like, it's about the pattern, not the person. He's just one person of many who feel this way. But other thing he said is, like, I seen them fold on the red carpet. What does fold mean? I think fold means we didn't do it. What? We didn't do what you felt we should have done. But you do what you feel like needs to be done. You do it because we're clearly letting you down. I'm clearly letting you down. And brother, that's why there is a diversity in the body. You have all the opportunity to do the thing that you feel like I should be doing. Have you done an entire podcast and not share the gospel at the end? But there's hundreds of thousands of views. I'm not sitting here saying, oh, you missed your shot, Marcus, or whoever. Whole podcast went through 30 minutes long and you talked about everything under the sun, but you didn't share the gospel at the end. You missed your window, you blew it. I do not see celebrities as more important than, you know, caterers or, you know, Uber drivers. They're all equally important in God's eyes. So I don't look at one opportunity as like, ah, this is the shot I gotta take. No, I'm talking to anybody and everybody about what I believe. But there also is a difference in philosophy. I'm not trying to seal the deal. I'm not walking around like a door to door salesman with the gospel. That's not the philosophy of ministry that I have. And just being honest with you, like, Jesus preached the kingdom, right? He preached the kingdom. Jesus. When a man said, how, you know, what must I do to be saved? Jesus didn't say, you have to trust and believe that I was sent by the Father, I'm going to live, I'm going to die, I'm going to resurrect, and then you've got to trust that and confess your mouth and believe in your heart and then you'll be saved. Why didn't he say that? Did he miss the window? I don't think so. I think he was communicating something bigger. He's communicating the kingdom. And what is the kingdom of God? The kingdom is what Jesus was inaugurating. He's saying, man, sell everything you have and come follow me. Following Jesus is ultimately where salvation comes from. It comes from trusting and following in the person and the work of Jesus and man. I'm doing that every day. Every day I am demonstrating what it looks like to follow Jesus. I am pointing people to the reality of following Jesus. I am telling people that the kingdom is not just about getting into heaven. The kingdom breaks through here and now on earth. And every day I'm exemplifying that. I'm demonstrating that every day seeds are planted. A seed got planted in me by a woman who just said, I told her I was an atheist and then she said, there's a God that you can trust and you don't have to worry about having everything figured out on your own. And as an atheist, you have to have it all figured out. But there's a God you can trust. That's all she said. Seed planted rocked me still remember to this day, God functions in that way. I think we think, like, there's a lever on the spirit of God, and if we just pull this lever, bow, the lights are going to come on, man. We are not in control. So I just think there's a philosophy of ministry, and it's okay. Again, man, I think if what he believes is legit, he's doing what he's supposed to be doing by saying, man, you guys, we got to do this. But I think it should be more out of a burden and less out of accusatory. Like, man, y' all failing. Y' all failing. It should be like, man, I love y'.
- [73:29]
Marcus Rogers
All.
- [73:29]
Lecrae
I want to see y' all do this, man. Like, here's what I want for y'.
- [73:32]
Marcus Rogers
All.
- [73:32]
Lecrae
Here's what I'm praying for, y'.
- [73:33]
Marcus Rogers
All.
- [73:33]
Lecrae
Here's what I'm hoping for. Y' all less of, man. Y' all failing. Y' all fake. Y' all fell off. That's not grace. It's not loving. It doesn't help anybody grow.
- [73:46]
Marcus Rogers
I'm down, Lecrae, like I said on the Instagram post, I'm down to have a conversation. Nobody has to know. We could talk. I've talked to many people, and people have no idea, you know, that I've talked to them, got on the phone with them. I just think, to be honest, y' all be, y' all be scared to have a phone conversation, you know, I'm saying, like, what's the worst that's gonna happen? Ain't gonna hurt nobody but the devil. If we disagree, we disagree. You know, we keep it moving. But I hit, I hit your dm. You got my number. You got all that? Up to you, bro. God bless. Praying for you.
- [74:21]
Lecrae
I, I've never seen that. This is the first time I've ever seen that. But here's the thing, man. I would be having private conversations with people every day if I did that. I, I'm, I'm not sure why he feels like I need to have a private convo with him specifically. I, I, I don't know if he feels like, man, he has insight that nobody else has, that he sees things differently than some of my close friends or my pastors or people that don't have my perspective but I have relationship with, you know, I get challenged by people who I have relationships with that don't share my perspective, but they lovingly challenge Me, right? So he had mentioned about me wrestling with, like, well, if they can heal, then why are they still wearing glasses? So I have a friend who does, like, you know, deliverance. Deliverance, ministry and healing all the time. And he loves me, and he doesn't rebuke me for my lack of perspective that he has. He invites me on the journey. He sends me book recommendations. He sends me sermons, podcasts. He walks with me. He invites me to stuff. I've gone places with him. I've met people. We had Michael Miller on the podcast because of him. But that's relationship. I have a relationship with him, and that's why I talk to him. I don't know Marcus. I don't know any of these people who have differing opinions or philosophies than me. And so I don't know why there's always this, like, hey, just call me. Just reach out to me. I'm just like, what?
- [76:08]
Podcast Guest
Why?
- [76:09]
Lecrae
We don't know each other. We have no relationship. We're not friends, we're not peers. We're brothers in the faith. But, man, there's so many people who I have different perspectives than. And I'm like, I can't spend all day talking to these people. And, you know, it's like, trying to get them to. I think there's an assumption that I'm not inquisitive, that I'm not, you know, working to make sure my salvin and election is legit. You know what I'm saying? Like, that I'm not, like, wrestling with my own views and convictions like that. I'm just like. Just la, la, la, la. Just echo chamber of everybody who agrees with me. The reason why I have this podcast is so I can sit with people who have differing perspectives than I do, and we can wrestle and talk through things. But I'm not interested in theological debates. I'm interested in people who genuinely care for the body and want to. I mean, some people you have to debate with, of course, right? Like, they. They have vantage points that they're serious about. But I'm a. I'm a sojourner. I'm actually wandering, constantly, growing and trying to understand. I'm not really interested in, like, somebody. Let me tell you, what you don't know, you need. And then to me, it's like, why say, I told him to call me.
- [77:45]
Marcus Rogers
What?
- [77:45]
Lecrae
Why are you telling people that? In my mind, if I can't speak for Marcus, I'm gonna assume he is. Here's the thing. I think dude is. I think he wants Truth to prevail. I think he is passionate about truth. I don't watch enough of his content to know. I see clips here and there. I'm not, like, I'm not gonna sit here and act like I'm well versed on him in his world, because I'm not. But I think that there's an assumption that I'm anti him or against him. And I don't know if he's against me. I just know that every so often I see clips where they're, like, kind of accusatory, and I. You just got to wonder, like, what. What is his aim? Is his aim to, like, hey, man, I'm praying for you. I want you to see truth. Like, what's the aim of anyone who's doing that? Like, I don't know, right? Like, but here's what I'll say. I'm not void of people who are concerned for my soul. I'm not void of people who have differing perspectives and philosophies of ministry. I'm not void of relationships with folks who challenge me on the way that I see things. I'm not. And I have conversations and relationships with them. I don't build an echo chamber around me of people who disagree with me. I, like, I wrestle with folks who have different perspectives, you know, So I welcome that. But I don't like motives assumed. There's just way more depth to the methodology that I employ. It's not just like, we sell outs. We ain't finna talk about Jesus on this red carpet. We wanna be accepted by the world. Yeah, world. Like, if only people knew the nuance and the, like, thinking quick on your feet when you're standing there and trying to think, like, okay, what do I say here? And then, like, it's just interesting to me. Never are those moments where you just killed it highlighted according to them. Right? Killed it according to their standard or their rules, the critics. Those moments where, you know, whoo, you said that thing. You held that down, the Grammy speech, when you pointed to Jesus, or when you. Like, the interview when you gave a full gospel prayer. Like, those things are never highlighted. It's always the moments where it's like, yep, see, that's where he failed. And that's where I feel like, man, we get into this, like, negativity culture, this slander culture, where we're here to just pick people apart. And I. I pray that it's not for content or views. I pray that it's, like, sincere. Like, man, this bothers my spirit. But I would Just challenge folks like Marcus or anyone else to pray for those people that are outside of your reach or con connection work on the people who are within your reach. Right. And then also, Yeah, man. I guess I would say love people like lead in love. And probably folks like him think love is being a truth teller. I'd say I think compassion and love is probably all truth telling. Understood. I've been there. I think lead in being relational. Cause I don't think anybody wants to have a phone call with somebody who's always accusatory toward them. But I think if you're like, hey, man, I just want to get to know you. What do you do for fun? What are you interested in? What's this? What's that? Well, yeah, of course. Maybe there's some mutual connectivity. Maybe that, you know, truth. I was in Chicago on a family trip.
- [81:51]
Podcast Guest
We were.
- [81:52]
Lecrae
I did a mission trip in Chicago. I brought my family to do some mission work in the city. And I saw this group of Christians outside downtown, and they were singing 2819 Christ alone. And I was like, this is dope. My daughter was like, this is dope. And we were just, like, Riding in upon a crowd. Plow eyes will see it. So we was just in the zone, right? And then one dude walks up to me, and I was like, yo, what is this? What's going on? And I think it was an event that Marcus Rogers was. I don't know if he put it on or he was preaching at it, but he was involved with it. And he was like, look, man, I know y' all got beef. And I was like, I don't have no beef with him. I don't know that, man. I got nothing but love for him, man.
- [82:39]
Jonathan
Keep.
- [82:39]
Lecrae
This is what. What I'm seeing out here. If he doing this, this would need to be done. I support and salute this. This is dope. I'm out here doing kingdom work. This is kingdom work.
- [82:51]
Marcus Rogers
I'm doing.
- [82:51]
Lecrae
This is great. I don't got no beef with him, but it's like, why did he assume that it's not for me? Because I've never said anything negative, but I do think it is, like, the accusatory nature of the dynamic that has made people who support him think that there's tension. And honestly, man, there's no tension. There's no smoke. It's just. I think it's. It's a difference of approach and a lot of assumption. And so that's what I would say. So I just want to bring this back to something that's bigger than Marcus, man. Because if this episode is only about him, I kind of wasted your time, right again. Matthew 18. People quote half of it, but they don't get to the part that you go to your brother privately, tell them, you know, we talked about this. You know, they kind of treat it like a flowchart on how to escalate a call out. But that's not how the chapter starts. It's not where the chapter ends. It starts with disciples. You know, they're arguing about who's the greatest. And then what does Jesus do? He puts a kid in the middle of the room and he says, whoever wants to matter in the kingdom has to look like this. Small, independent, and. And no leverage at all. And then he tells a story about a shepherd who leaves the 99 that are fine, but then he goes and he chases down the one that wandered off. And then he gets to the part that everybody quotes, go to your brother one on one first. Then it ends with a servant who got forgiven of an impossible debt and immediately went and choked out somebody who owed him some pocket change. And the thing is, Jesus isn't gentle about how the story ends. So the whole chapter from top to bottom is not really about how to expose somebody. It's about how far God's going to go to keep from losing somebody. So every step in that whole process, from the private to the witnesses to
- [84:44]
Podcast Guest
the community,
- [84:46]
Lecrae
it's just another attempt to not lose your brother. You know, it's not a rung on the ladder toward how to humiliate him. And that witness part matters more than a lot of people realize, because in the Old Testament, in Deuteronomy, you can't convict somebody off of one person's word. You got. You need two or three witnesses. And if you lied on somebody, then you got hit with the same penalty. We talked about that, right? The law existed because a public accusation could end somebody's whole life. So by design, we're trying to slow accusations down and hold accusers accountable. So if you flip that to right now, I mean, online witnesses don't slow anything down. They speed it up. One clip, thousand comments. Now's a headline. Now is nobody in that chain has even talked to the person or even verified the claim. So now this person has to answer for being wrong. And as I said before, Scripture built that friction in there on purpose, right?
- [85:49]
Podcast Guest
We.
- [85:50]
Lecrae
We built a machine that just removes it all. And so man, Paul just told the Corinthians not to pronounce judgment before the time because the Lord is the one who's going to bring the light that's hidden in the heart. So that's not Paul saying, don't ever call somebody wrong. He calls, you know, or calls something wrong. Right. He calls plenty of things wrong by name and in the letters. But, you know, there's a difference between drawing a line, between a wrong action and what's going on inside of a person's heart and where they stand with God. I think the first one we're allowed to do, the second one was never ours to begin with. So let's just focus on restoring people, loving people, and not becoming like the world in what we do online. Love y'. All.