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This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? Well, with the name your price tool from Progressive, you can find options that fit your budget and potentially lower your bills. Try it@progressive.com Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates Price and coverage match limited by state law. Not available in all states.
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You want to get your backyard summer ready, but you don't want to break the bank. Wayfair gets it. Planning on dining al fresco or relaxing poolside? Wayfair has everything you need to prep your space. Shop now and save up to 70% off during Wayfair's 4th of July clearance Score huge deals on outdoor furniture, area rugs, and more. We're talking thousands of products for every style and budget, plus surprise flash deals. July 6th don't wait. Shop Wayfair's 4th of July clearance now through July 6th at Wayfair.com Wayfair every style, every home, y'. All. I've met Michael Jordan. I've met Jay Z. I've met Beyonce. I've met the last three presidents. I'd have met them all. None of them created the sense of, like, awe that was created when I met John Piper. You said something so powerful. Also, ooh, do I want to be dishonest? Yeah, I'll be dishonest. I made an idol out of John Piper. His words became truth. I'm not realizing. I see him as like a father figure. I think that's healthy in some senses, but it's also unhealthy. It's unhealthy because today is not a day of criticism, but it is a day of investigation. This. This is the deep end with Lecrae. I was on the brink of divorce, making money, but still didn't understand how to build wealth. Especially. I was empty, and nobody around me knew because success is really easy to hide behind. You know, from the outside, everything looked like it was working, but then behind the scenes, I was stuck. But let me tell you, what stuck actually looks like is when you keep having the same conversations in your relationships and nothing really changes when you make money, but it disappears just as fast as it comes. It's when you feel disconnected spiritually, but you don't know how to get back. It's when you tell yourself this year is going to be different, but it ends up looking the same. Now, that's not failure, but what it is is drift. And drift is dangerous because your life can look fine while slowly losing direction. And that's where I was and what I had to Learn was more effort wasn't fixing it, because effort wasn't a problem. I was living on autopilot. Something in me had to change. That change started when I used my network to gain access to a community of exper financial leaders, spiritual leaders, therapists and counselors who showed me what I couldn't see. These people helped me rethink money, rebuild my marriage, and reconnect my faith to real life. So here's what this is. Reconstruct you the space where I'm giving you access to these leaders and their guidance. The people inside this community are called architects because rebuilding your life takes design. Inside, we walk through a process called framework. Simple, practical way to rebuild your faith, your relationships, your money, your purpose. This isn't something you just watch. It's something you walk through with me and side by side with people who are serious about changing. So if your life feels like it's moving but not growing, this is your moment. You can keep drifting or you can rebuild. Click the link, step inside. Start building your life on purpose. In a year from now, let's see what we got. Mark Driscoll, John Piper, Timothy Keller. These are to many of you, mega pastors, influencers, leaders, theologians of the early to mid 2000s and even before. Regardless of your views on them or their perspectives, you know their names. I know more than their names. I know these men personally. I have spent time with these men. I have sat with these men. I have been to these men's churches, some of their homes, and I'll be honest, they shaped a portion of my life. Where am I with these men now and what are my thoughts and how do I view who they are now is something that I want to discuss because I know there's so much to say about them. John Piper, a theologian of an era who taught people about Christian hedonism and desiring God, A very passionate Reformed Christian. Tim Keller, one of the leading theologians of the this century, another Reformed thinker and author and cultural expert. Mark Driscoll, a another Reformed pastor who was extremely famous in the early 2000s. I'm not sure if he's still a Reformed pastor. I'm not sure much about where he stands anymore. But these are not just three pastors and leaders. These are three men who I've had the pleasure of knowing personally. Three men who I've sat with countless times. I've been to some of their homes. They had a profound influence on me at a particular stage in my life. Where am I now with them? Who are they to you? Who are they to the culture, who are they to me? I want to talk about it. And this is not an episode about famous pastors. It's actually a story about how I found them, how I learned from them, how I was disappointed in some ways, and how I've grown and ultimately discovered that Jesus was never asking me to build my identity around any human leader. So today is not a day of criticism, but it is a day of investigation. It is a day of understanding what God taught me through each of those relationships. So why am I talking about this now? Because I think that there's been a lot of questions about where I stand now, what my views are now, how I think about things theologically. Some people are curious, like, if my theology has changed, then do I dislike these people, or do I not subscribe to their views, or are they done with me? I mean, God bless Tim Keller. He's no longer with us. But what is their perspective on who I am? Why have I never talked about my journey with them publicly? Well, because I was processing it myself. And some things you keep to yourself because you're trying to understand it, you're trying to make sense of it. You're trying to deal with a reality. There's a lot of hurt, there's a lot of pain that I've experienced, a lot of trauma. And I was trying to figure out where their story is in the midst of it all. Also, ooh, do I want to be dishonest? Yeah, I'll be dishonest. Also. I think for a season, I was afraid of people thinking that I had somehow sacrificed my views on the dignity of people of color in order to stay approved by white evangelical leaders. And I didn't want people to think that me quoting Tim Keller in some kind of way meant I had sold out, which isn't the case. I think two things can be true. I think you can love black and brown people and also think that a white Presbyterian pastor is brilliant and want to quote him. But I wasn't in a place to admit that for a period of time. And so what am I trying to do here? Is this an expose? Am I trying to put them on blast? I'm not. I'm just trying to be honest. I'm trying to be honest about how I saw them, how I connected with them. And honestly, this is healing for me. I need to talk about this. It's cathartic for me. I think people have different perspectives on John Piper, on Tim Keller, on Mark Driscoll. And I think there's some fair and Unfair assessments, and I've heard them all. I've actually been chastised and scrutinized for associating with them at different points in my life. I also want to be honest. I'm very grateful for them for different periods and points. And I know some people are going to struggle with that. Some people are going to be upset that I'm grateful that I honor the work that they have done. In some senses, I can't speak to everybody's motives. These are three different men, right? So they're not the same. They're not in the same categories. And one person's honor is not another person's honor. And also want to be honest about some of the things that some of them have done that were, yeah, hurtful or harmful. But heroes don't have to become villains. You know, God uses imperfect people and also uses them to disciple folks. I mean, people look at me all the time. They're like, lecrae can't be authentic. He can't be real. But God has used me in my brokenness to help other people. And so I just think to understand why these relationships with these men matter so much, you got to understand who I was before I met him. So I'm going to talk to you about the three of them separately. But before I do that, I want to paint you a picture so you understand, like, why I looked up to them so much during a period of my life and who they were to me. So. So first thing you got to understand is me as a young believer man. I. I was. I. I came to Faith in a college ministry. I was a skeptic. My mother grew up in the church of God in Christ, like a holiness Pentecostal movement. She had a lot of issues with it and struggled, and. And because of that, she kind of backed away and didn't raise me in church. So I didn't have a lot of church upbringing outside of my grandmother. But her walking with my grandmother, it was like. It was like. It was for adults. There was not a youth group. There was nothing that really spoke to me. So I just assumed church was for older people. So I never engaged in it, really. So I get saved at this campus outreach, and, you know, I end up going to a black Pentecostal church. And that was the. The. The perspective that I had on God. And theology was like, okay, well, God is real. He's changed my life, and now I'm going to go to this church, because this is the expression that I understood God to the context that he lived. In. And so I'm at this Pentecostal church, and the campus leader was going there with me, and then he begins to go to a dispensational church, a Bible church, right? From Dallas Theological Seminary. So he goes to this church and he gets discipled and transformed, and he starts to think more robust theologically. And here's what I'll say. A lot of times the Pentecostal churches, specifically in a black context, but I'll just say the Assemblies of God, black, black Pentecostal churches are strong in the supernatural, the spiritual realm, and very strong there. And the reformed or the dispensational churches oftentimes are very strong in their understanding of scripture in hermeneutics, biblical context, right? Just studious. And sometimes they fight each other, right? They say, well, you're not strong in the spirit, you're not strong in the Bible. And they say that each other are wrong. I've since learned a lot and grown in that particular place. So I say all that. I set the scene up so that you can understand where I was coming from theologically. And. And I. I was kind of this spiritual, like, person who was trying to figure out, well, what makes sense. On top of that, I'm growing up in a fatherless home, so I don't have my dad at home. I don't have a man to tell me, I. I think you're doing a good job. This is how you are supposed to function as a man. I grew up with my dad addicted to drugs, not in my life at all. I grew up with, you know, my mom having some different boyfriends that were in. And I liked them. But then they were gone. They broke up, or my mom, you know, I had a stepdad, but he grew up very traumatized, and he didn't know how to be a father. So he wasn't warm and he wasn't caring. He didn't give me advice. It was just kind of like I just tried to stay out of his way for the most part. So I. I longed for belonging, for approval. I longed for a man to say, you're doing a good job. I long for a man to say, this is what it looks like to be a man. And so I say all that to say, like, for a lot of us, especially my 116 crew, when I think of, you know, Fizzle and Jason and Tadashi and bj, a lot of us were, we're looking for theology, but underneath that, we're really looking for a family. We're trying to figure out who can be the family that we've all been looking for.
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This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? Well, with the name your price tool from Progressive, you can find options that fit your budget and potentially lower your bills. Try it@progressive.com Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates Price and coverage match, limited by state law. Not available in all states.
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You want to get your backyard summer ready, but you don't want to break the bank. Wayfair gets it. Planning on dining al fresco or relaxing poolside? Wayfair has everything you need to prep your space. Shop now and save up to 70% off during Wayfair's 4th of July clearance. Score huge deals on outdoor furniture, area rugs and more. We're talking thousands of products for every style and budget. Plus surprise flash deals. July 6th.
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Don't wait.
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Shop Wayfair's 4th of July clearance now through July 6th at Wayfair.com Wayfair Every style, every home. And so in steps. John Piper, right? At this point in my life, I don't. I'm arriving at manhood. I'm like 19, 20. I don't have, like a spiritual father. I do have a mentor who's like a big brother, you know, helped me find Jesus. He introduces me to dispensationalism. I start going to this church based out of dts. And though a lot of these dispensationalists would not call themselves Reformed, some would, some wouldn't, right? They were still more open to reading, to reading these Reformed thinkers. So I'm at this Bible study, and ours is like the black Bible study. And then it's connected to another ministry with a group of white college students. And we were trying to foster, like, community, like, bringing each other together. And I've always been a thinker, a processor, a skeptic, a reader. And, you know, I just, I didn't know that there was much to learn or read theologically. I just wanted to experience the spirit and read my Bible. I didn't think about extra biblical commentary. I didn't know that existed. Intellectualism was for, like, sociology, anthropology, not for God. And I meet a guy, and his name, his name is John. And. And John is reading a book at this meetup that we're at. And the book is called Knowing God by J.I. packer. Great book, by the way. Highly recommended. So I'm like, whoa, what, what is this book you're reading? Knowing God. And I'm thinking it's going to be like some spiritual book, like you know, you got to pray longer or whatever. And he was breaking down what the book was about. And I was like, wait, we can know God like this? This is like an intellectual unpacking of who God is. And. And I was like, whoa, what is this? So I went and got the book and devoured it. JI Packer is a reformed thinker, a reformed theologian. Brilliant man. Well, now I'm hooked. I'm like, I didn't know we could think like this. So I go back to John and I'm like, what else do you have? This was amazing. I need more. The intellectualism was great. He gave me a book called Desiring God by John Piper. You would have thought that I had met the second coming of Christ. The way my eyes popped out of my head reading this book. Like, it was as if it was revelatory. You got to think I'm like a little masochist in a sense. I just want to give everything I have for God. I'm passionate. I want to prove to God in the same way I wanted to prove to my father that I'm worthy, that I. Please love me, God. I'll do anything for you to love me. And he did love me. He did not love me because I obeyed. I didn't learn until years later that I obey because he loves me not. Obey to get his love. But John Piper, in desiring God, it was articulating that, you know, this joy should be fought for. And Christian hedonism was like, man, go hard after chasing the joy in knowing God. And God's greatest gift is giving us himself. And the goal of the gospel is to get God. And I was like, I was blown away. So now I'm hooked. I'm reading John Piper's books. I'm. I'm finding sermons. This is like back in the. This is date myself to the, like Napster. Not even Napsters, past Napster, like Kaza or whatever. Anyway, I'm just burning sermons offline and putting them on CD and just listening to John Piper all the time. So now I'm a fan. You hit the fast forward button. I have now become a little more prominent. I'm on my second album after the music stops and we got this thing called the 116 clique. It's a bunch of ragtag dudes from different hoods around America, St. Louis and Texas, and we rap together and we love God and we're all passing each other these books and these sermons and ideas and we're just growing and we all get hooked on John Piper's stuff. We all slowly become hooked on reformed theology, right? And you just get this bunch of little hood dudes. We were like aspiring hood scholars. And so we load up our backpacks because we heard about a conference called the Desiring God Conference. And we load up our. Load up our cards and whatever and we, we book it to the Desiring God Conference. This is probably, I don't know, 07 maybe somewhere. 06 maybe. So we all roll up to the Desiring God Conference. All we would do, we just want to hear from John Piper and some of these other thinkers that we've been hearing about. And I mean, we stood out like chocolate chips in a bowl of milk. Like it was just this group of like six or seven black dudes in baggy clothes and extra long T shirts, caps on and do rags at this conservative older white conference. And we had to look, people had to be like, what is happening? Who are these guys? You know, group of little hood dudes. And. And it was like, yo, we're here. We're at the Desiring God Conference. And we're just sitting and we're just taking it all in. And we're listening to John Piper and we're talking about the sermons. And I mean, and it just swept us, man. It just took over us. And there was a guy, part of our crew, his name is Miguel. And Miguel was from the Bronx, New York. And he was like our resident theologian, you know, and he, he would always give us sermons and find new books and stuff for us. And. And so Miguel connects us with a guy who works for John Piper's organization. His name is Lucas. Great brother, great friend. Lucas is a part of a ministry called Don't Waste youe Life, which was in an arm of John Piper's ministry that connected with young people. So we meet Lucas and now it's like I get to look inside the brain of John Piper's world. And I'm asking Lucas questions. What does he eat for breakfast? What does he think about this? And how does John Piper do this and how does John Piper do that? And Lucas and I, we're close in age. We all become good friends, such good friends that I'm just like excited about everything. And I'm reading John Piper's book, Don't Waste youe Life. And I decided to write a song called Don't Waste your Life. And I remember writing a song and it was based off of a sermon that I heard from John Piper. And I'm letting Lucas listen to it. And Lucas is like this is amazing. And he's like a group of friends and I who work for Don't Waste youe Life, John Piper's sister or partner organization. We want to direct the music video. So I go up to Minnesota, Minneapolis, and we do the music video. And I go to Angola Prison. And if you watch the music video now, you'll see, like, I'm literally in a prison. Some of it is shot in Minnesota, some in Memphis, and some in Angola Prison. And I am just all in. And we name that the song Don't Waste youe Life music video Don't Waste youe Life, like an ode to everything John Piper's taught us. And then the moment comes, and I say, let's do a tour called the Don't Waste youe Life Tour.
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And.
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And we get all our. We partner up with Don't Waste youe Life Ministries, and we got pamphlets, and we're passing them out. We. We just partner up. I still haven't met John Piper, but I'm doing all this work with his organization that connects with young people. In a sense, I'm like an echo chamber for everything John Piper preaches. I couldn't get enough of his teaching and his preaching, and I had to be an echo chamber for everything that I heard. Now I'm not processing, nor are my brothers processing our trauma of being, like. From these dysfunctional backgrounds and our need to be affirmed in family. We're our. We're each other's family. I'm not processing that. I have no older man in my life to give me insight and wisdom. So in many ways, John Piper, from afar, was becoming this. The first older man, in a sense, who was dousing me with theological truths that were changing the trajectory of my life. And we go on this Don't Waste your Life tour. And we have a stop in Minneapolis, Minnesota, and the. And we get to go to John Piper's church. And not only that, I get to meet John Piper. So much happened. I could just go down the line of all the things that have happened. But I'm trying to, for the sake of time, hit some of the. The marks, the key marks. I meet John Piper at his offices. I am shaking y' all like, y'. All. I've met Michael Jordan. I've met Jay Z. I've met Beyonce. I've met Kendrick. I don't met them all. None of them created the sense of, like, awe that was created when I met John Piper. The only other person I met that. That shook me up like that. I've met Mo I've met presidents. I've met the last three presidents. None of them. The only other person that shook me up was Tim Keller. But. But I met John Piper. I'm literally shaking. I'm shaking because I'm just like, I'm in awe. And because man has changed my life so tremendously through his words. And I just get to talking with him, and through that time period, we just begin to talk, and he's like, pleasure to meet you. And he gives us information and insight, and he talks to me about what my ministry could be and what hip hop music could be. And I get invited to do video with him and tell my story. And I am just like, I can't believe this. At this point in time, there's nothing. I thought he could do no wrong. I thought he was the manifestation of Jesus incarnate. That's just where my headspace was. And so I'm not scrutinizing anything he says or anything he does ever, ever. What that relationship does, because it continues to foster. I meet his family. His daughter and I have remained good for the last few years. She's a sweet young lady. His. You know, I've met his family, and it's just been like this relationship where I know this guy. I'm not realizing. I see him as like a father figure now. I think that's healthy in some senses, but it's also unhealthy. It's unhealthy because I have this trauma that I'm dealing with that wants to be affirmed by somebody, specifically a man. I have this part of me that unknowingly believes that because the theologians that I'm listening to are older white men, that somehow white men are smarter and better. Unknowingly, I'm believing this. And another problem that I'm processing is I don't realize or believe that there's anything I could teach them, that there's any mutual exchange of information. I'm also not scrutinizing their theology either. So all of this stuff is happening at one time, and I'm not realizing it. And I be. I. I really am honored to be married to the ministry of desiring God and don't waste your life. And so y', all, as the years have unfolded and I. And I face some trauma and some racial trauma and some theological trauma and some church hurt. Where do I stand with John Piper? What. What. What has that looked like? Well, here's what I'll say. John piper is a 5.9% Calvinist, like Calvinist to the Core, theologically, the man is brilliant. The man can unpack the Scriptures, and like none other, but John Piper, like many of us, lives in the vacuum of the context and culture that he was raised in. I mean, this is a man who was raised in the segregated south and has had to process life through the lens of, like, okay, what does God say and how do I process? This is a man who has heralded and championed Jonathan Edwards. Jonathan Edwards is a brilliant theologian. He also had slaves. He had slaves. I haven't heard a critique. Now, maybe Piper has made a critique on Jonathan Edwards having slaves. I don't know. I haven't heard it, but I didn't hear that as much as I heard how much he admired Jonathan Edwards. So, John Piper, what I realized is that man. This is a man who is also a product of his environment, and he's fighting to be the best version of a Christian he can be, despite being a product of his own environment. And over the years, what I. What. What I. I've learned is that he is not perfect. He doesn't see everything perfectly. But I don't doubt he fights to be all that God has called him to be. And. And what I've learned is that there's John Piper. He. He stopped me at a Passion conference in Atlanta, and he told me that, man, the culture needs you. He didn't say, I'm proud of you. I wanted him to say, I'm proud of you. I wanted him to say that because I deeply wanted the affirmation of an older man. But he didn't say that because he saw me as a whole human being who was already affirmed, already walking in his purpose and path. I didn't see myself that way. And when he said that, I began to think, like, wait a minute. Maybe. Maybe he knows something about me that I don't know. That same conference, Francis Chan said, can I pick your brain? Can I get some advice from you? I was like, francis Chan wants advice from me? What could I tell this man? But then I began to realize, man, God has given us all gifts and wirings and understandings and context because we're a body. And if I don't have confidence and belief in what God has instilled in me, I can't be helpful for. For anybody else if I'm only looking at them as well. You have all the answers, and I don't, then what role do I play in this relationship anyway? Sorry. Racial trauma hits. Theological trauma hits. In the. Late. In the 2000 teens, John Piper goes to bat for Me online when reformed and white evangelicals were busting my head wide open for talking about the killing of unarmed black people, critiquing me for being political, which I wasn't. I was just. This is the context where I grew up. These are my cousins. These are my. My family members when they were destroying me. John Piper puts a post up, and I might misquote it, but he essentially says, like, you all should be grateful. Lecrae hasn't left the faith super encouraging to my soul, because I just assumed that no one was gonna stand up for me. No one was gonna say, hey, hey, hey, y', all, chill. Hey. Or you. No one called me. Now, that. And that's what I would say, man. I. I think I had an expectation of some of these men that they did not expect me to have. Specifically, John Piper. I think I expected him to reach out and call me and say, hey, Lecrae, how are you doing? What's going on with you? Let me talk to you. I think I wanted that, but again, I assumed the dynamic of our relationship. He sees me as somebody who's already affirmed and full and walking in his calling. I see myself as this incomplete person who needs the affirmation of this older white man. And so I've. You watched me and KB's interview. KB was waiting for me to put my arm around him and say, hey, man, come on, what do you need? And I never did it because I didn't realize he needed that. And I'm sure John Piper didn't realize that's what I was looking for. It's helped me because I've grown to see and appreciate him. And to see, like, man, we're not gonna agree on everything, and that's okay. I don't think me subscribing to everything John Piper subscribes to makes me a better Christian. I think it's safe for a lot of us, though, because he's smarter than us, because he's lived longer than us. He's got a lot of wisdom. It's safe to just say I'm just going to blindly follow everything he says because it's safer for me to not have to think for myself. But what God has taught me in that dynamic, in that relationship, there's things that I know that he doesn't. There are experience that I've had that have transformed me in ways that I haven't heard him articulate. And there are things he can learn from me as a believer in the same way I learned so much from him as a believer. There was a season. I'm now at a place where I love that man. I've never publicly said that. I'm now at a place where I love that man. I'm grateful for that man. I deeply appreciate that man, and I'm not ashamed of that. But there was a season in my life where people were saying, john Piper's not saying enough. And folks are going to talk about me for saying that. They're going to call me like Uncle Tom or a token or whatever they want to call me. I know what I am. I know where I stand. I don't care what you say, but here's what I'll say. They critiqued him so bad, to me, they'd say, man, I didn't want to deal with you because you were one of Piper's guys. And I think they just thought they didn't like him. Not because they understood his theology, but because they felt like he was against them because of what he stood for, what he believed, or he was dogmatic about particular things, and they just felt like he was unapproachable and all these. Or. I don't like reformed Christians because they're mean. They're the frozen chosen, and I can't live my life based off of their perspectives of folks. I know the man. I know the man. I've met the man, Godly man, and I'm grateful for that man. My passion, my hunger for Jesus is different. Because of him. I. I have nothing negative to say about our relationship and our dynamic. Did I want more from him? I did. But it wasn't because. But it wasn't. I think he did what he knew to do. I don't think he was anticipating or expecting Lecrae to need that call. I was a grown man and, you know, do I have critiques? Sure. Plenty critiques, but they're cultural and contextual critiques about things. Because we grew up, we're existing in two different spaces. My son, when I tell him about NBA young boy, he's like, nah, dad, you're wrong. You're wrong. That's not the case. Well, he knows more than I do because he's closer to that context than I am. And I think that's the. That's the case for John Piper.
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This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? Well, with the name your price tool from Progressive, you can find options that fit your budget and potentially lower your bills. Try it@progressive.com Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates, price and coverage Match limited by state law. Not available in all states.
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A burst pipe, a dead water heater, the AC calling it quits. Who do you call? HomeServe is an easy way to handle unexpected home repairs with plans covering stuff basic homeowners insurance usually won't. Instead of scrambling for a contractor, you make one call to get the repair process started. Join the millions of customers who trust HomeServe right now. Go to HomeServe.com podcast for 50% less your first year. That's HomeServe.com podcast savings compared to renewal price void in Florida. A lot of people don't. A lot of people have not liked John Piper's perspective on like racism on both sides, right? He can't please either side. And I don't think people know. And maybe I'm telling his business, I don't know, maybe I'm not. Maybe it's not a big deal. But I don't think people know that his daughter that he adopted, an African American girl, Talitha, who's become like a great friend, a little sister. And I don't think people know that like his sons have had vastly varying. This is a man. So you know, one of his sons is like been making wild tiktoks that are literally like very anti biblical and. But he's a brilliant mind. This is a kid that was raised with Piper and he would probably say he was browbeat. He'd probably say it was, it was dogmatic and too much. He's got another son who's a leader and a Christian leader. And so it's like I don't think he's a perfect man. You know what I'm saying? Like, I remember sitting with him eating and just like, you know, I'm wearing my $200 Jordans and my durag and like he's wearing his $30 Payless shoes he's probably wearing for six years. And I'm like, I think he believes that everyone should do as he does. I think he believed that. I think he thought he was doing the righteous thing. But here's the other thing I think about John. Everyone's sermon on the Mount is their struggle. Whatever you're preaching all the time, that's what you've had to struggle through. John has struggled through Joy. It's not the happiest person you'll ever meet. He's not like, oh my gosh, what's up brother? Like you. The reason why he's always preaching Joy is because Joy is not his friend. He's got to fight for Joy. I And that's what he pushes, is fighting for joy. And so that dogmatic perspective, I think has rubbed people the wrong way. So I remember Pentecostal friend of mine, pastor friend of mine, we weren't friends at the time. And he was like, hey man, I was on tour. So I'm on tour and Andy Mineo is on tour with me and him and Andy are friends. And he invites Andy, he invites the tour, really, Andy and somebody else to go hang out with him on a boat and take a little boat ride. And I was a little offended. I was like, yo, man, why you didn't ask me to come? And literally his thought was, well, I knew you were Piper's guy, so I just felt like you didn't want to be around us because you probably were against us and what we believed. And I don't know how, I'm not sure why or how that vantage point of like John Piper's like the Christian police or the fun police came about, but I think that's the perspective was like, he's the fun police. And so I was like, oh, shoot. So is that how they look at me? Because they're like, yeah, you don't want to come out on. We don't want. You're not going to be fun to have on this boat with us. You're not going to just enjoy the water. You're going to be sitting there like talking about, man, we're wasting our lives. We shouldn't be out here on this boat having a good time. We should be preaching the gospel somewhere. And you know, I, that's an interesting dynamic, man. So people thought I just wasn't a well rounded human being. And I, I can't say that that's, I've only seen John as an intense person. I haven't seen Dr. Piper as a not intense person. I mean, he jokes and he laughs, but I mean, but I mean intense. So I do wonder if that's been some of the pushback or the blowback of some of those relationships. And then I also a great friend of mine, great sister of mine, you know, she said, I'm just not a fan of John Piper. He, he, he, he, he frustrates me. And I know him, but she doesn't know him, but she's like, he frustrates me. And I was like, what is it? And, and she's like, he's arrogant. He thinks he knows all the answers. He thinks he's got God's perspective down pat down to a science. And I'm like, wow, is that the perspective that people have from the outside looking in is dogmatic and arrogant and knows it all. And I was like, very interesting, because that's. Those are the critiques that I had gotten during that series and session of my life. And I think I wore that as a badge of honor, like being the fun police or whatever. You know, What I can say is I think that sometimes you need that in a season of your life in the same way people need Philip Anthony Mitchell some folks. He's for a type of person in a type of season. And if he's not for you, that's okay. It doesn't mean he's not good. Means he's not for you in this season of your life, that's okay. Like, there's a season in my child's life where I'm more of a. I don't know, I'm more of a cop. I'm more like, hey, put that down. Don't do that. Drop that. Get away from that. Let that go. And then I move from being a cop to a counselor. You know, like, hey, come here, let me explain to you why I wouldn't do this. And this is this, and this is that. And then you move from counselor to consultant, Like, I'm here for you if you got thoughts or questions. And I think some people are in consultant phase of life in their journey. And Piper felt like a cop, you know, And I. And I think that's what it was. And I don't. I don't think that was intentional. I just think that he's operating in the gift mix that he knew and that he had. So. So even me, I don't feel guilty because some of those sermons don't hit the way they used to. Because in the season of my life I was in, I needed that. I needed that. That's why I was putting it in my songs. That's why you heard it in my. Because that's what it was revelatory to me. Some of his sermons, you know, it's like there's things that he said that were revelatory that I needed in that season. There's some things he said that are revelatory and needed in every season. One of the things he says, you never know what prayer is for until you know that life is war. That's revelatory. You know, there's a chapter in his book, Bitzer was a banker. He talks about a guy who was a banker who became a theologian. Like, just because you're not working in full time ministry does not Mean, don't need to know your Bible. Revelatory. Good for me now, good for me. Then there's other things, you know, I don't know. Tadashi has a song where Murmur, murmur, murmur. He's talking about make war, make war against sin. We do need to make war. You make war against sin. I think in that younger season of my life, when we wrote those songs, make war was like, make war, war against your sin necessary. In this season of my life, it's. Counselor, come here, man. I know it's been hard. I know you've been trying to make war and you've been losing. What do you think you need? Where are you struggling? Right? It's a different, it's a different countenance, a different approach. And then you just got some people who like, bro, what you talking about, make war. I don't even understand the concept. So you got it's context. One of the things that I really appreciated was Christian hedonism. His desire to just like say, throw it all away, chase after God. It was very crucial for somebody in my position who was pursuing this, this mission of using art to showcase my faith and getting famous in the process. It grounded me because I, I believe that my rewards were not on earth, they were in heaven. What John Piper would say is that God is the gospel, right? You, Jesus died so we could get God, not so we could get this arbitrary idea of heaven. Heaven's only amazing because God is there. And, and, and the idea of reward, the reward was John Piper would, the last I've heard him articulate was like, what is our, our heavenly rewards? Well, not sure. But what he believes is that it is the enjoyment of God more than others. So it's kind of like if you study, if you love basketball and you go to a basketball game, you have a deeper appreciation of it than someone who doesn't study basketball. And so what he's saying is, man, your burden and desire and your, your reward for living for God on earth is that you're going to get to heaven, have a deeper appreciation of God and, and who he is than those who just barely made it in. And I needed that. I needed that especially as I was getting famous and people were loving me. It kept me ground. I never wanted to be a star. I was never pursuing it. Being a celebrity was antithetical to everything that John Piper was instilling in me. Right? Christian hedonism, God is the gospel. It's not about me. The reward is heaven. I don't care about this earthly stuff, but Here was the problem, y'. All. I won't say the problem here was the conflict. Conflict was, I was living in the hood. One of the worst neighborhoods in America, in Memphis, Tennessee, impoverished. Drugs, murder, violence. Thirteen people got killed in three years while I was there. My neighbor's throat cut. She was unalived, Drugs rampant. Like, this is the world I'm living in. And when I you, I can't go talk to these people in dire circumstances and say, you know, sorry, brother, I'm not able to feed you, but God is the gospel. I'm not saying that's what John was, was teaching, but it was the, the, the mindset that people who followed him, including myself, were taking was like, well, I wrote a song called God is Enough. God is Enough, but feed that man. Teach this kid how to read. There were things I was running into that weren't making sense with what I was learning. I'm trying to teach them Christian hedonism. They don't even know what hedonism is. I'm trying to teach them, you know, to be students of theology. They can't read. So I needed a practical theology for the environment that I was in. The other problem or conflict that I was running into was don't waste your life. Like, I believed it. Like, don't waste your life. Now John's context are old white retired men who are on a beach playing golf thinking like, well, that's it for me. I'm done. And don't waste your life. Give your money away. Like John is, God bless him, giving away probably 95, maybe 100% of his royalties for those books that he's written. God bless him. It's amazing. I'm dealing in a context where people are multi generationally impoverished. And do I teach them this mindset so that they stay there, or do I teach them how to build and be financially sustainable so that they can provide for. The Bible also says a good man leaves an inheritance to his children's children. We haven't even gotten to a place where we can throw our lives away. We haven't even got to a place where we can consider retirement and golf. Because we're not even first generation middle class, right? We're not even first generation working class. So there were just these conflicts that it wasn't an equal carryover. And then I'm trying to teach these kids eschatology and soteriology and they don't know biology, you know, so it was, it was just a conflict. And that's where I wrestled and I, and I And that's where I didn't realize I have something that I can contribute to this conversation. I have something that I can teach John. I have some thoughts that I can express. And I'm not saying soteriology and eschatology are wrong or we don't need them. I'm just saying there was no emphasis on people who didn't have access to that level of education and articulation. This is why the Reformed community and the evangelical community love me, was because I was able to articulate and express these things that they were learning in seminary, in rap songs. And they were like, yes, these kids are going to get it. But what wasn't the reality was that the folks who I was leading to Jesus, they weren't going to go to seminary. They barely got through high school. They weren't getting college degrees. And so, you know, some people will say, oh, man, y' all are dumbing it down. It's not intellectual enough. I'm not saying that people cannot rise and people cannot grow and learn more and be able to process deep, intellectual thoughts. What I am saying is that everybody's not there, and you got to have a recipe for the folks who are not there. And I think many times some of the evangelical circles that I ran in looked at me as, you know, well, you go get them. Go. Go get them, Lecrae. You take what we got and figure out how to make it accessible for them. And I was like, no, we're in this together. I'm telling you where a need is. Alter your perspective to help meet a need. Right? Give me the tools. Or at least we started a nonprofit. At least finance our nonprofit to do the work that you don't want to do. You know what I mean? And that wasn't even the case. So when I go and I start doing the research and the digging and the looking of what some of these nonprofits are making, and I'm like, $40 million a year. We're busting our head to get 50 grand a year to support these kids in the hood, and you're patting me on the back for teaching them eschatology? Brother, we need tables, we need books. We need reading programs. So, anyway, that is not an indictment against John Piper. It's just that's the context in the world that he was existing in. And I was neglecting. I was. I was becoming. I was stressing myself out, being this bridge to translate this information to my community. And it was. It was tough. But I got to give Piper credit. He always supported me, always at least Lucas did. Lucas was, you know, worked for Piper. And I mean, Lucas, who worked for Don't Waste youe Life, went above and beyond to make sure we were good. I mean, Lucas, this man, hired people from our community, sponsored them to come and get teaching, taught people how to become entrepreneurs and feed themselves and do incredible things. And so I think that. I think John's heart was in the right place, and he put people in the right places to make things happen. I. I do think he was dogmatic. I do think that unintentionally, you could feel guilty because you paid $120 for your. Your Jordans. And he's like, he's been wearing the same shoes for the last 30 years. I'm not telling you to feel guilty, but I. You could feel judged, but at the same time, I'm like, man, we come from different contexts. And I get it, man, I get it. You know, I had a line in a song that I'd rather have a dollar in my pocket than a million. I got that from John Piper because I didn't want to worship money, which is great and we shouldn't. And yet at the same time, so many people in my context don't understand money, don't understand finances, have never had the opportunity for that to even be a struggle. Never had the opportunity to struggle with. I got too much money, and I worship it. Now the people I'm dealing with are trying to figure out how they're going to pay their bills. So I think that's where there was a conflict in that relational dynamic. Not a conflict relationally, but just a conflict in understanding that I was afraid to bring up because I was so enamored with his theology and his perspective. I just. I didn't think to bring it up. I. The. The. John doesn't owe me anything. And I think a lot of times. And now that I'm in a position that I'm in where people have looked up to me greatly and I've inspired them and encouraged them, they may feel like, man, I got close to you, Lecrae. And now we're supposed to. Because I have this perspective of you. We're supposed to be tight. I think I felt that for a season, like, no, Jon, because I've been in close proximity with you and eight meals with you that were supposed to be tight. And. And I. And I honestly don't know how he thought of me. You know, I was a young guy trying to be affirmed, wanting somebody to say, well done, son. Nobody ever told me I'M proud of you. No man in my life ever said, man, I'm really proud of you. You did it right or good job or this is the way you do it. John piper was the first person that I, as a 20 year old that I read his perspective on life and I said, I want to follow this. And I followed it to the T, to the point to where I got to be in his inner circle and, and I don't think he knew that I was looking for someone to say, I'm proud of you, son. Good job.
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This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? Well, with the name your price tool from Progressive, you can find options that fit your budget and potentially lower your bills. Try it@progressive.com Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates Price and coverage match limited by state law. Not available in all states.
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A burst pipe, A dead water heater, the AC calling it quits. Who do you call? HomeServe is an easy way to handle unexpected home repairs with plans covering stuff basic homeowners insurance usually won't. Instead of scrambling for a contractor, you make one call to get the repair process started. Join the millions of customers who trust HomeServe. Right now. Go to HomeServe.com podcast for 50% less your first year. That's HomeServe.com podcast savings compared to renewal price void in Florida and I do think that there is some problems oftentimes with young black men needing to be affirmed by older white men. I do think that in my generation, the younger generation doesn't struggle with this as much. In my generation who are coming from the crack era and our dads are in prison or not in our lives, black fathers are way more present than they've ever been. But at that the era I grew up in, I do think a lot of us were looking at older white men as the well, y' all know better than I do. Y' all are the, y' all got this whole thing figured out. It's, it's not that. It's that they, they have more times around the Monopoly board than we had. It's not that they were smarter or better or their water was colder or wetter, is that they have more exposure and experience than you or your predecessors have had. But you know, when you adopt that mindset in the way that I did, though, subconsciously, you want them to advocate for you. And when I wanted to advocate for unarmed black people, I felt like that those voices did not come and grab me and walk with me through the pain. It wasn't their responsibility to. But I think I was hurt because it didn't happen. So. I don't think in this season of my life that. I don't think in this season of my life that the principles of desiring God and don't waste your life are not helpful or good. I don't think that I've arrived at some place where those things are unnecessary. I just think that they were a part of my journey, but not a part of my journey that I need to. He is not the exclusive place where I can receive those particular ideas and lessons. I'm saying a lot here. This is a. This might be overshare. This might be, like, a lot of vulnerability. And a lot of it is. To be honest, I'm hesitant because I've said so many things in the past. I think the more you talk this. The proverb says this, the more you talk, the higher the chances go of you saying something stupid. Right? Like. Like folly is bound up in the hearts of men. Like, you know, so it's going to come out. I think I've been scrutinized so much, I'm scarred. And I'm almost like. I'm trying to, like, walk on eggshells, but not because I think y' all are old honesty. But there's, like, two worlds that I've existed in that I'm trying to hold intention, and they don't understand each other and they're at odds. And so there's. There's this reformed evangelical world that I'm like, yo, y' all really did bless me. Y' all gave me a lot. I don't hate you. I don't paint you with the broad brush and throw you away. But. But a lot of you dropped the ball. And then there's this, like, people of color who have been so hurt by evangelicals that I'm like, I know your plight, and I know you've been messed up. And they did drop that ball. And I'm not trying to. What's the word? Cater or placate or be ultra diplomatic. I'm trying to be honest and not use sweeping statements and not live in a place of anger and hate. And I don't want us to live in that place because that doesn't. That doesn't get us anywhere. Love is what God has called us to. And I'm not saying tolerating abuse is love. What I am saying is that it doesn't solve any issues to sit here and just be mad at how you wish somebody would have stepped up. I can't live mad at my father for not being in my. I love the man. He wasn't there. He didn't care for me like he should. I love him, I forgive him. I don't trust him. But if he was to say, hey man, how do we reconcile this? What do I need to do? I'm open for it, I'm here for it. And I, I think that it doesn't. It's not healthy for me to look at the evangelical community and be like, you dropped the ball in 2016 and I'm never dealing with you again. No, them is my brothers, man. My brothers and sisters. I'm going to see them in heaven. We going to be together. I may not trust them. I may see that they don't want to. I'm not going to placate. I'm not going to like go over there and dance and be. Do you like me now? Please love me, Please like me. There's power dynamics at play. They have more of the financial infrastructure but everyone's motive over there is not just to wrong you. It's not a, a group of people who are hell bent on operating in power dynamics and looking down upon you. That's not, you can't paint everyone with that broad stroke. It's just not fair. And that's one of the things I've learned. There's definitely some people like that. I don't think John Piper is one of them. I don't. I think he's. He genuinely loves the Lord, loves people and is operating the best he can from the context that he's experienced and been exposed to. And I've seen him be an active learner. So anyway, I said a lot and I'm going to be scrutinized either way. I always find myself trying to like keep from becoming like, I wish I could be more like Jackie and just be like dig my foot in the sand. I'm so nuanced and I hate being misunderstood. So I'm always over explaining. But if I don't say anything else, here's what I'll say. This is not a story as I, as we go on to Tim Keller because that's a whole nother story. Then there's Mark Driscoll, who nother story. Here's what I'll say. These are not stories of hatred or expose or this is what where you're wrong. These are not gotchas. These are also not like happy fluffy trophy pieces that make everybody look good, profile pieces that make people look good either. These are just realities, my reality. You could have a whole nother experience with these people, and that's okay. This is a man being honest and cathartic with his journey and his experiences, wanting you to grow and learn from them. Shout out to Jamar Tisby, my sister Akimini, Jude 3 Project, who fight to make sure that people of color experience justice and truth and theology and don't have to be in echo chambers. Shout out to them, love them. And I hold that intention with man. I sat across the table from David Platt recently and had an incredible conversation where I was able to be honest and transparent. And I saw the heart of a man who wants to understand and wants to love people well. And that's where I believe John Piper is as well. Tim Keller's a completely different story because I have a different relationship with him as well. Mark Driscoll, put your seatbelt on for that one. Put your seatbelt on. Anyway, I love y'. All. I hope this was in some way helpful. Thank you. Thank you, Lucas. Thank you. Don't waste your life. Thank you. Desiring God. I have nothing ill to say. I thank you all in the lane that you're running in for the people that you have been called to. Well done. Keep going. And so why should you care? Some of you've never heard of John Piper a day in your life. Some of you know exactly who it is. Some of you love him, Some of you don't. Why should you care about this conversation? Well, one, because we all have the tendency to make idols out of men. I think I made an idol out of John Piper. His words became truth, like he was the Mishnah. If you understand what the Mishnah is like, the ancient Jews, the Torah is what God has written. The Mishnah is like what the Jewish culture have written. These ideas and idioms and thoughts that were second to scripture to them. And even to this day, many Israeli people look to the Mishnah more than they look to the Torah. And I think John Piper's words were my Mishnah. I began to hear his words as God's truth instead of a man interpreting God's truth to the best of his abilities. I think he is brilliant historical, game changer. But the reason why I think this is important is because it's important to hold your heroes in the tension of the reality that they're human, of the reality that they will fail. You don't have a monopoly on everything truth, and that if you follow them without any question, you know you will repeat their flaws as well. Jesus was perfect. Following Jesus, you're going to be great. Paul says, follow me as I follow Christ.
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Right?
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Just follow me. I got this. Paul said, I don't even judge myself. He's like, I know I've got some issues. Paul called himself the chief of sinners. It's like a disclaimer. And I don't think we do that with. With our leaders. I don't think I did that with him. I think I looked at him as a guru who had it all figured out and not a man who was doing the best he could. Not a broken stick drawing straight lines, but a guy who had it all together. And I would just tell you, hold your heroes with that tension, y'. All. I don't care who they are. They don't have it together. When you start humanizing people, you're less hurt by them. When you start humanizing them, they cannot be the heroes that you make them out to be. And they can't be the villains either, that you make them out to be. They become human. That is the highest goal for us, is to be human, not to be superhuman, because that's not real. And not to be less than human, because that's horrendous. Be human and humanize people. And I hope that's what you get from this, that I see a hero of mine, historical hero, as a human. And I needed him in that season. So, yeah.
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This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? Well, with the name your price tool from Progressive, you can find options that fit your budget and potentially lower your bills. Try it at progressive. Com. Progressive Casualty Insurance company and affiliates. Price and coverage match limited by state law. Not available in all states.