Tim Ross Has An Unfiltered Conversation With Lecrae

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Deep End with Lecrae

Episode: Tim Ross Has An Unfiltered Conversation With Lecrae
Date: May 14, 2026
Host: Lecrae
Guest: Tim Ross

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Episode Overview

This episode of "The Deep End With Lecrae" brings together Lecrae and Tim Ross for a raw, vulnerable conversation about authenticity, controversy, faith, trauma, and healing. Both men—seasoned pastors, cultural figures, and unfiltered thinkers—pull back the curtain on their personal lives and public ministries. They confront head-on the tension between church expectations and real, messy humanity, exploring cancel culture, grace, personal growth, and how their faith informs their response to pain, both their own and others’.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Finding Peace Amidst Public Scrutiny

• (04:14–05:03)

  • Lecrae describes being in a "season of uncanny peace," marked by quiet, calm, and being "unbothered."
  • Not everyone wants to see that peace, and public perception frequently conflicts with their personal reality.

• Quote:

  • “I'm in a season of uncanny peace... I will not trade it for anything else.” – Lecrae (04:14)

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2. Cancel Culture & Authenticity in Ministry

• (05:32–12:21)

  • Tim and Lecrae discuss how authenticity—sharing flaws, cussing, or expressing frustration—costs pastors their acceptance in polite Christian company.
  • Pastors are sometimes only welcomed if they curate an image that’s acceptable to all, a “side of the diamond” people want to see.
  • Lecrae affirms he won’t hide his humanity, referencing biblical figures whose stories show darkness and redemption.

• Quote:

  • “What I won't do is hide my dial and present this perfectly curated image that I know is not the truth. And I'm not hiding sin... This is my personality. This is my humanity.” – Tim Ross (11:41)

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3. The Stripper Sermon & Virality

• (13:18–18:13)

  • Tim addresses the infamous viral moment where he likened Jesus to a "stripper" (stripped naked on the cross), leading to widespread condemnation.
  • He explains it was a metaphor meant for a particular cultural audience, rooted in biblical language and cultural exegesis.
  • Both reflect on how moments like this are judged harshly online with little contextual understanding.

• Quote:

  • "The only stripper I’m in love with is the one that took off glory, which is... the most vulnerable you can ever be if you've always been God and choose not to be." – Tim Ross (16:32)

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4. Online Criticism, Mission Drift & Christian Cancel Culture

• (19:47–24:51)

  • Tim and Lecrae dissect the toxic tendency among Christians to expose and criticize rather than build up and stay focused on their mission.
  • They distinguish between online nitpicking and real discipleship, emphasizing personal relationships and positive examples.

• Quote:

  • "We're online because we're not on mission. ...The way I've always dealt with false teachers as a pastor is to just keep giving people the truth." – Tim Ross (20:05–22:40)

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5. Boundaries, Relationships, and Stepping Down from Leadership

• (25:46–29:24)

  • Lecrae explains why he stepped down from being a lead pastor: to protect his congregation from being caught in controversies due to his public persona.
  • The decision to speak authentically online led to being "canceled" in some circles and even losing certain friendships, but he frames it as following God's lead for his life.

• Quote:

  • “For me to talk like I talk at home and still be their pastor... that’s too much of a distraction. I think that’s why the Lord had me give up leading a congregation.” – Tim Ross (26:24)

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6. Cultural Double-Standards and Racialized Respectability Politics

• (29:40–31:00)

  • Both address how “acceptable” forms of Christian expression are often read through a cultural and racial lens—white “country” expressions are embraced; Black urban expressions are policed.

• Quote:

  • "You want me to have a fade. My braids scare you. Maybe it's not even what I say or the way I say it. Maybe it's my cultural ethnic lens. You like a good country boy, but you can't handle a nigga from the hood... Just say that." – Tim Ross (30:00)

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7. Vulnerability, Community, and Transformation in Digital Ministry

• (31:16–33:07)

  • Tim’s podcast community, “The Basement,” has become a powerful force for transformation—more so than traditional ministry ever was.
  • People experience life change through candor and authenticity, not perfectly scripted sermons.

• Quote:

  • "I've reached more people in the last four years of doing this podcast than I reached in 27 years preaching." – Tim Ross (31:44)

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8. The Robert Morris Scandal: Processing Abuse, Justice, and Grace

• (34:04–46:43)

  • Lecrae and Tim address the sexual abuse confession and incarceration of prominent pastor Robert Morris, who was also a spiritual father to Tim.
  • Tim openly grapples with anger, betrayal, and how to hold space for both victim and perpetrator—a tension most people avoid.
  • They discuss the difference between grace and excusing behavior, emphasizing biblical ideas of holding tension and letting God be the ultimate judge.

• Quotes:

  • “Whatever anger you feel for him, you need to process that privately. Don't do that publicly.” – Tim Ross (35:44)
  • “And is the conjunction that most Western Christians are too lazy to use... We don't live in a culture that wants to hold tension. We want to relieve it.” – Lecrae (40:22)
  • “Vengeance is mine, says the Lord. ...On our best day as a human, we're not righteous enough to exact vengeance justly. So the Lord says, I know what happened to you was offensive. ...Leave that to me.” – Tim Ross (44:43)

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9. The B Side & Hearing God in Leadership Decisions

• (46:49–50:44)

  • Reflection on a failed business/ministry project (“the B Side”): both admit they hadn’t prayed through all partnership decisions.
  • Tim cautions that financial provision isn’t the same as divine confirmation.

• Quote:

  • "Man’s provision is not confirmation of God’s voice." – Tim Ross (50:29)
  • “They are not Jehovah Jireh. He is.” – Lecrae (50:44)

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10. The Missing Piece, Trauma, and the Need for True Peace

• (51:04–58:47)

  • Lecrae discusses his new book, "The Missing Piece," born from 30 years of faith and 28 years in therapy.
  • He argues society’s lack of emotional vocabulary causes people to act out rather than heal, and that Jesus left peace—not power or wisdom—as the essential gift.
  • True peace is permanent and rooted in Christ, not found in numbing or self-distraction.
  • Healing is a communal process—"bleeding together is better than bleeding alone.”

• Quotes:

  • “If you're not ready to face yourself, you will not make it through the first five chapters.” – Lecrae (56:22)
  • “If we got hurt in community, are we going to heal alone? No, right? But guess what—a different community wants to heal what this community hurt.” – Lecrae (57:33)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “We're online because we're not on mission.” – Tim Ross (20:05)
• “If you're not ready to face yourself, you will not make it through the first five chapters.” – Lecrae (56:22)
• "Man's provision is not God's voice." – Tim Ross (50:29)
• "Bleeding together is better than bleeding alone." – Lecrae (56:55)
• “Vengeance is mine, says the Lord... you don’t have enough righteousness and justice to execute vengeance properly. Leave that to me.” – Tim Ross (44:43)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Season of Peace & Cancel Culture: 04:14–06:26
• Viral Stripper Sermon Explained: 13:18–18:13
• Online Culture vs. Mission: 19:47–24:51
• Leaving Pastoral Leadership: 25:46–29:24
• Cultural Critique: 29:40–31:00
• Transformation through The Basement: 31:16–33:07
• Robert Morris Abuse Scandal & Grace: 34:04–46:43
• The B Side & Hearing God: 46:49–50:44
• The Missing Piece, Trauma, and Healing: 51:04–58:47

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Final Reflection

This episode exemplifies "The Deep End's" core theme: ditching perfectionism for vulnerability, and embracing the discomfort of honesty—even when it invites controversy, misunderstanding, or backlash. Lecrae and Tim Ross champion a Christianity rooted in love, real accountability, healing in community, and letting God, not critics, have the final say. The candid conversation offers hope and language for those grappling with trauma, faith, and the messiness of being human.

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For anyone wrestling with authenticity and faith amid a judgmental culture, this episode is essential listening—raw, redemptive, and deeply real.

Transcript

[Lecrae]

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[Lecrae]

don't make it rain on booty cheeks. We don't make it rain on strippers. The only stripper I'm in love with is she. Did you hear the Tim Ross clip?

[Tim Ross]

When he compares Jesus to a stripper, the world hears it and says, this is the type of sermons that this man give.

[Lecrae]

I don't even understand how we got on the top 10 list of, like, worst people for all of Christianity. That's your pastor? Yeah, right. He says, that's your pastor. He called Jesus stripper. That's your pastor. He dropped the F bomb. That's your pastor. Now, is the language I use at my house appropriate for a pulpit? No. Can we keep it a buck? Yeah.

[Tim Ross]

A woman has come forward accusing the

[Advertisement Voice]

pastor of Gateway Church, Robert Morris, of sexual abuse beginning when she was just 12 years old.

[Lecrae]

When the details came out about what Robert did, I was angry. He's one of my spiritual fathers, right? I only got two. He's one of them. What happened to Cindy was atrocious. There is no excusing any of that. And this is the deep end with Lecrae.

[Tim Ross]

All right, ladies and gentlemen, you seen this man before. You seen him on my podcast. You've seen him on his podcast. You've seen his books. You've seen the controversies that he's gotten himself into. You've seen all these things. Let me tell y' all something, though, just to be fair. Fair and factual. There would be no deep end podcast if it was not for this man forcing me to do a podcast. He saw something I did not even see myself he took a chance on me and invited me to become a part of something that has now got legs of its own. And he planted a seed that has been sprouting ever since. And, man, I hope that great is his reward in heaven for that. I don't know how you know him. You may know him as a comedian or a rapper. You may know him as a lead pastor. But a lot of people know him as the founder of the Basement, which is a podcast that is all over the world. I have none other than my blood relative, Tim Ross, here with us today on the Deep End.

[Lecrae]

I love you, bro.

[Tim Ross]

What's up, man?

[Lecrae]

I'm happy to be here, Cuzzo, man. Love you, man.

[Tim Ross]

There's so much to talk about. Like, I'm. I'm like. When I was thinking about this, I was like, man, where do we even begin? Because the last time we talked, I was coming off a Grammy win. I remember being at your house, and, yeah, I was. I was kind of, like, processing what that meant, because I didn't really know what that meant. And I guess now I'm just thinking like, you. You know, that was a season for me, and I've had multiple different types of seasons. You're having multiple different types of seasons. What season are you in now? What is this season that you're in? What are you processing? What's going on?

[Lecrae]

That's a good question. I'm in a season of uncanny peace. A.

[Tim Ross]

A.

[Lecrae]

A piece that I'm so aware of at this point in my life. Lecrae. I will not trade it for anything else.

[Tim Ross]

Yeah.

[Lecrae]

And what that looks like and feels like is a lot of quiet, a lot of calm, and a lot of unbotheredness, if I could use the term. I'm just not bothered by much.

[Tim Ross]

Yeah.

[Lecrae]

Because I'm at peace.

[Tim Ross]

That's good. I love that. Yeah. I think for. I think some people don't want you to be at peace for sure.

[Lecrae]

Facts. Yeah.

[Tim Ross]

Some people have prayed for your peace. So bless the prayers of the saints. Pray for your peace for sure. You know, I feel like we were just. We were talking about it beforehand. We were. We were just talking about the reality of people getting canceled.

[Lecrae]

Right.

[Tim Ross]

And I was. And I was saying, like, man, I've been canceled, like, so many times.

[Lecrae]

Right.

[Tim Ross]

And having to process the idea of being canceled and what that looks like. So I'm like, man, let's just go there. You've always. You've always been the person that you are now.

[Lecrae]

Right.

[Tim Ross]

I think. I think people got exposed to the Person that you are now, facts.

[Lecrae]

And we're like, yeah, that's accurate.

[Tim Ross]

They touched their pearls.

[Lecrae]

Absolutely correct. Absolutely correct. Yeah, for sure.

[Tim Ross]

But who you are now put you in a position where you are a pastor for nearly 30 years. Yep. Large congregation, very successful ministry, successful podcasts, all of those particular things. And the very same thing that put you on this platform allowed other people outside of your spaces to see who you are.

[Lecrae]

Correct.

[Tim Ross]

So we saw one side of the diamond. I want people to see the full thing, because some people only know you as the stripper pastor.

[Lecrae]

Right, right, right. Exactly right. I don't even remember 30 years of pre. He called Jesus the stripper.

[Tim Ross]

He called Jesus the stripper. Only pose we own is the cross.

[Lecrae]

Right, right, right, right, right, right, right.

[Tim Ross]

Like, first, I want you to, like, talk me through, like, who you are, who the person is that. That had. That gets to that moment, and then what's. Who the person is in that moment, and then now.

[Lecrae]

Yeah. So I guess the person that gets me to that moment is shaped and formed by being born and raised in Inglewood, California. Hip hop being my first cousin. He was born in 73, and I was born in 75. And growing up in a culture where, really, Gen X was the first to bring the reality of real life to television. Real World Season 1, Puck and Pedro. That was on our.

[Tim Ross]

I loved Puck.

[Lecrae]

Right? That was our. That was on our watch, bro. Yeah, that was on our watch. And so coming, Coming. Two generations after. Silent, right? Silent. Then baby boomer than us. And baby boomers had their flower child moment, right? In sex and drugs and rock and roll and let peace live. And we don't want war. Make love, not war. But we were the ones to be like, but this is the way I feel, though. And we don't care if you know it. Right? And so that has informed my whole life. My mom caught me watching porn when I was 19, penis in hand, remote in another.

[Tim Ross]

Sheesh.

[Lecrae]

Box. TV, VHS and a VCR. Yikes. And then love me enough through it that I was able to tell her about my sexual abuse when I was 8 by the older teenage boy that lived across the street. So when you got that much stuff that should shame you was contained. And then through love, was like, I see you. I know you're not what you did. I know who you are. That was all before I gave my life to Jesus. Yeah, I had all those experiences. So my first dead body when I was nine. You know, homies getting shot, bullets whizzing past, guns in my face, knife Held at knife point by some essays. All the things you go through. But this is all before I. I say yes to Jesus. So when I say yes to Jesus, all of that, all those experiences have already shaped me. They come with me. Then I read the text. The Texas is gangster is where I grew up.

[Tim Ross]

The lenses you see it through.

[Lecrae]

Oh, like, like, oh, yeah. And that was just Genesis.

[Tim Ross]

Yeah.

[Lecrae]

I didn't have to get to Exodus, numbers, Leviticus, do the right, right? So I read through Scripture and I'm like, okay, well, the Bible has zero chill on showing us the totality. You talk about that prism and that diamond. We know that Abraham is the father of many nations, right? We know he's the father of our faith. Homie has his own song, right? Homie got his father, Abraham, that man, he sound like he's dope. And he lied about his wife, had

[Tim Ross]

a side piece, right? Yeah.

[Lecrae]

And his wife told him to sleep with her handmaid and he did it, right. Prisms. David is a man after God's own heart, but he has Uriah killed, sleeps with Bathsheba, Mercs, 200 Philistines when his king only asked for a hundred. Brought back 200 foreskins. That so? You talking about 200 murders and then 200 foreskins, right? Moses mercs a dude, buries him in the sand, and becomes the. The leader of a nation, Right? Joshua almost has a pristine record, but he doesn't consult with God before he goes into covenant with the Midianites, with the Gibeonites. We can go on and on and on and on and on, right?

[Tim Ross]

Yeah.

[Lecrae]

We can get to the New Testament, talk about Peter and how inconsistent he is, and Jesus is cooking him breakfast.

[Tim Ross]

Yep.

[Lecrae]

Right? Talk about a restoration plan. Where's the two years? So we can get you back in ministry on that, right?

[Tim Ross]

Yeah.

[Lecrae]

Dude cuts off somebody's ear, he cusses out some girls. I can go on and on. Paul is happy to see Stephen with his head busted open to the white meat shows. And then God calls that dude to

[Tim Ross]

be

[Lecrae]

conveyor of the gospel of the same person that he endorsed to had his head busted open to the white meat show. So I read all of that and I'm like, well, if we get to see all of that, and then these are still called the heroes of our faith.

[Tim Ross]

They in the faith hall of fame.

[Lecrae]

What I won't do is hide my dial and present this perfectly curated image that I know is not the truth. And I'm not hiding sin.

[Tim Ross]

Yeah, right.

[Lecrae]

I'm not even talking about There is no side piece.

[Tim Ross]

Yeah. You're saying this is my personality.

[Lecrae]

This is my personality. This is my humanity. These are where my convictions lie. They might not lie where yours lie, but when did your convictions become commandments?

[Tim Ross]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Lecrae]

So I know too many pastors that retreat once a year to an undisclosed location to have cigars and whiskey. I know they're not going to Instagram it.

[Tim Ross]

Yeah.

[Lecrae]

But don't act like you don't drink cigars and whiskey and don't act like that. I don't act surprised that I cuss.

[Tim Ross]

Yeah.

[Lecrae]

On my. On my podcast, in my house, when I did it in front of you after church when we went to go eat.

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[Tim Ross]

Okay. Some people hear this and say, this is just evidence of whatever preconceived idea they have of you. That's negative. Right. So.

[Lecrae]

Yes.

[Tim Ross]

So I guess. Let me. Well, let me give you my vantage point. My vantage point is when I'm just in that moment. Because that moment is silly to me now, but I get it. This is the age we live in.

[Lecrae]

Right. For sure.

[Tim Ross]

We live in the age of is clipped. And it's the. It's who you are defined.

[Lecrae]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Tim Ross]

So. So fine. Let's look at it from that vantage point. What I saw was, oh, he in the zone. I was like, he in the zone. It's almost like a rapper freestyling, for sure. And words are popping off. And you like.

[Lecrae]

Yeah.

[Tim Ross]

And you know what I'm saying? You know, oh, I'm in love with a stripper, too.

[Lecrae]

Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

[Tim Ross]

Hey, y' all probably don't know that Jesus was naked on the cross. Cause y' all only got the pictures when he got the little towel on him. Nah, he was stripped naked and he was on the pole. Oh, that's a bar. That's a metaphor. And I just spit that like that. But then the world hears it and says, this is the type of sermons that this man gives.

[Lecrae]

He's a false teacher. This is. This is his whole 30 years of ministry. He's a blasphemous heretic. Crucify him. Stone him. That's the. That's the. Yeah.

[Tim Ross]

The room was on fire when you there in that moment.

[Lecrae]

Yeah, for sure.

[Tim Ross]

And everyone's excited. When did you realize, oh, shoot, this has become a thing?

[Lecrae]

I think. I think it was like a month later. Okay. Because you preach it and. And it goes out to the people that we know.

[Tim Ross]

Yeah.

[Lecrae]

Right. And then whoever sees the clip and decides to clip that.

[Tim Ross]

That part.

[Lecrae]

Yeah. That goes. It's nuclear viral. Right. Like it goes viral more than the truth about Jesus that I've preached. The.

[Tim Ross]

The 27 years of sermons.

[Lecrae]

Right.

[Tim Ross]

Catalog where you broke down the text.

[Lecrae]

Right, Exactly. And people got saved and wept and everything. But. But you know me saying that I. I. The only man, the only strip I'm in love with is the one that took off glory, which is. Strip means to take off.

[Tim Ross]

You're not inconsistent.

[Lecrae]

I just.

[Tim Ross]

Yeah.

[Lecrae]

By definition.

[Tim Ross]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're not inconsistent there. Yes.

[Lecrae]

Strip means to take off. So if I would have said, I'm in love with a taker offer.

[Tim Ross]

Yeah.

[Lecrae]

Right. But the fact that I put him on the same plane as a stripper, when. If you look at Paul's writings, Paul is always looking for what's being said in culture and then putting Jesus above it. So the fact that we say Jesus is Lord, this didn't come from. This wasn't birthed in the prayer room of believers. They called Caesar Lord. They called Caesar a savior.

[Tim Ross]

Yeah.

[Lecrae]

So Jesus just looks at whoever's in culture and says, no, it's not Caesar, it's Jesus.

[Tim Ross]

Right.

[Lecrae]

He's always just redeeming whatever you've put out in culture and slapping Jesus above it.

[Tim Ross]

Right.

[Lecrae]

I'm sure it might have been upsetting to Pharisees to see that cultural mix. Right. So as. As. As as much of a image that has been made of that statement that. That the only stripper I'm in love with is Jesus. Well, if you. If your imagination is. There's a nude woman on a pole and I've put Jesus there. No, I've put a man who took off glory, which is the most vulnerable you can ever be if you've always been God and choose not to be. Forget death. That alone is already vulnerability personified. But then to be completely stripped of your dignity, of your. Your identity, and mocked and put on a cross, but naked.

[Tim Ross]

That's right.

[Lecrae]

You did that for me. You're the only one I'm in love with.

[Tim Ross]

Which, I mean, if we were to have a conversation and you said it. We would probably laugh and be like, that's kind of dope, though, right? You know what I mean?

[Lecrae]

Yeah. To a certain audience.

[Tim Ross]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Lecrae]

To a certain urban audience, to a certain hip hop audience. If, you know, metaphor entendre and double entendre, you're all over that.

[Tim Ross]

Yeah.

[Lecrae]

If you're in the suburbs. Right. And you. You still singing hymns.

[Tim Ross]

Yeah.

[Lecrae]

This is upsetting, and I understand that.

[Tim Ross]

Right.

[Lecrae]

I'm cool with you being upset, but to then say my entire ministry is.

[Tim Ross]

Is. Is illegitimate. It's crazy.

[Lecrae]

Wild.

[Tim Ross]

It's crazy. Yeah. Like,

[Lecrae]

I.

[Tim Ross]

Knowing you, I'm like, yo, this dude is tripping. He crazy. And that was it. I was like, yo, he crazy. Like, yo, man, what are you talking about? Like, you are wilding right now.

[Lecrae]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Tim Ross]

I didn't expect it to be like. But then I. I understood people are gonna take stuff out of context. So I've. I'm currently dealing with something similar. Okay. And while, you know, we just signed the worship team from 2819 Church in Atlanta, and I saw that for whatever reason.

[Lecrae]

I know the reason.

[Tim Ross]

Whatever reasons people have with them and with me, they don't like this Union.

[Lecrae]

No. They. 2819 is sold out, and Lecrae is

[Tim Ross]

sold out on the other side.

[Lecrae]

Right, Right.

[Tim Ross]

Sold my soul.

[Lecrae]

Yeah. You're part of the Illuminati, and now Pam has somehow been duped by you.

[Tim Ross]

Yes.

[Lecrae]

And you are over there. You're. You're. What was Inspector Gadget's enemy that used to just have the cat?

[Tim Ross]

Asriel.

[Lecrae]

No, Asriel, I think, was the cat. I can't remember what you're talking about. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Tim Ross]

Smurfs, maybe. Yeah, but.

[Lecrae]

Yeah, that was a Smurfs. That was Garden Bells. But. But we are old. But whoever. Whoever. That. That's how I feel. Like, when I saw that, I literally thought, come on. I chuckled because I don't even understand how we got on, like, the top 10 list of worst people for all of Christianity.

[Tim Ross]

I don't know. I don't. But that's the question I was gonna ask you, though. I'm curious your perspective of why are we like that as Christians? Why is that our online culture? Like, why are we like, ah, I need to expose, like, oh, can I

[Lecrae]

just tell you what the Holy Spirit just told me as soon as you said that?

[Tim Ross]

Come on.

[Lecrae]

We're online because we're not on mission

[Tim Ross]

bars.

[Lecrae]

I never said it in my life, never thought about it in my life, but we're online because we're not on mission. And so. Oh, now he's cooking. Okay. Because now he's giving me Bible to back it up. So. So acts chapter number 118 is, and you shall receive power after the Holy Spirit comes upon you. And you should be my disciples to Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, and the uttermost parts of the earth. And then nine through the rest. He ascends on a cloud. He ascends on the cloud. The disciples are just. They're in awe. Right. The resurrection is dope. But to see your homie leave on a cloud. We don't talk about that enough. Right. And they're just staring so long. It's like letting go of a balloon and trying to just keep your eyes on it until your eyes get fuzzy. They stare at it so long, Lecrae. That two angels appear and they don't notice them, and they're still standing there so long that the angels have to say, why do you stand here gazing? The same Messiah that you saw rise shall descend again. But the implication was you can't stand here until he comes back.

[Tim Ross]

Yep.

[Lecrae]

Get to work.

[Tim Ross]

Get busy.

[Lecrae]

Well, that's the equivalent of being online. I'm just waiting for Jesus to get back and deal with Lecrae and Tim and whoever else I don't like and who. Ah, ah. You're the problem. And if we could stop you, we would be okay. And so now I'm about to curate the list of the worst sermons I ever heard in my whole life. And this is the reason why this is bad. And can't believe that. And can't believe that. But you won't curate the best sermons you heard.

[Tim Ross]

Yeah.

[Lecrae]

You won't give me the top 10 pastors to listen to.

[Tim Ross]

Sheesh.

[Lecrae]

When the FBI trains people how to find a counterfeit currency, they leave him with real bills for four months. And then after four months of real bills, they introduce one counterfeit. And they've been with the truth so long that when one false comes through, they don't even know why, but they like.

[Tim Ross]

Yeah.

[Lecrae]

Something off here.

[Tim Ross]

Yeah.

[Lecrae]

So the way I've always dealt with false teachers as a pastor is to just keep giving people the truth.

[Tim Ross]

They'll recognize the false when it comes.

[Lecrae]

Why would I bring attention to. Or why would I expose my platform.

[Tim Ross]

Yeah.

[Lecrae]

To a person that I know is not telling the truth. I'm not going to even tell you the restaurant.

[Tim Ross]

Yeah.

[Lecrae]

I don't want you to get curious.

[Tim Ross]

Yeah. I think the other tragedy in all of that is the slander takes people off mission who are on mission. Because where do you go if you have dropped the ball? Where do you go if there's not a people who wanna see you restored facts or when are you restored? I got people telling me to repent for stuff they think I did 10 years ago. So when, like, how does that work? Like, am I. Is this still, like, did I not turn. It was supposed to make an announcement,

[Lecrae]

like who's governing body. Yeah, right. Like, I don't. Who's in. Who's arbitrarily responsible for this restoration. It can't happen outside of relationship. Right, right. And so there's been enough that I. When you talk as much as we do, you're going to wind up saying something that you don't mean to say or that you regret saying.

[Tim Ross]

Proverbs says that.

[Lecrae]

Yes, right.

[Tim Ross]

That's right.

[Lecrae]

And so there's been a lot of stuff that I've had to take down and stuff that I had to apologize for. But it was my mentors, my wife and my closest friends that said, you've gone too far.

[Tim Ross]

Yep.

[Lecrae]

To make butterfly 909. That's. That's the hashtag I give to every stranger online. Butterfly 909.

[Tim Ross]

So I was like, is this a song? I don't know.

[Lecrae]

No, no, no. Butterfly 909 represents every commenter in the comment section that I've ever. Right. So for butterfly909 to say you need to repent.

[Tim Ross]

Yeah.

[Lecrae]

No. You don't even have a profile pic.

[Tim Ross]

Sheesh.

[Lecrae]

And you wouldn't say it to my face?

[Tim Ross]

No more than that. I don't think they want a healthy version of you either. Right. Like, let's imagine you were unhealthy. Their desire is not to see you healthy. Their desires see you crushed, destroyed.

[Lecrae]

Right. Crush, kill, destroy, flesh. Crush, kill, destroy.

[Tim Ross]

How? How? For somebody like you, who you said when we started, you're. You're. You're at peace.

[Lecrae]

Right.

[Tim Ross]

You're at peace. You go home to your wife, your.

[Lecrae]

Your.

[Tim Ross]

Your kids, your family loves you. You're constantly at peace. Are you able to see the people who have pulled back in light of the hoopla that goes on online? Are you able to see that?

[Lecrae]

Yeah. Some are dear friends and there's levels to this. Okay. So some have had to pull back because it's just too. It's a tension that their congregations aren't ready to deal with and they don't have the bandwidth to deal with it.

[Tim Ross]

Okay.

[Lecrae]

So I still love them. We still rock. It's just like, I'm not going to come to the reason why I feel like God told me to step down from being a lead pastor is because it would have been too much congregation for. For too much tension for my congregation to try to steward.

[Tim Ross]

Okay.

[Lecrae]

For me to talk like I talk at home and still come be their pastor.

[Tim Ross]

Yep.

[Lecrae]

That's too much of a distraction. I think that's why the Lord had me give up leading a congregation.

[Tim Ross]

Yeah.

[Lecrae]

So that my congregation wouldn't have to be always answering the question of, that's your pastor.

[Tim Ross]

Yeah.

[Lecrae]

Right. He says, that's your pastor.

[Tim Ross]

Okay.

[Lecrae]

He called Jesus stripper. That's your pastor. He dropped the F bump. That's your pastor.

[Tim Ross]

Yeah.

[Lecrae]

Right?

[Tim Ross]

Yeah. You're relieving him of that.

[Lecrae]

So God is smart. I didn't know the podcast was going to even be nothing, dog. I was hype if we got a thousand people. Lrae.

[Tim Ross]

Yeah.

[Lecrae]

When we first started that pod on a YouTube channel that never existed, I was like, man, if we get a thousand people, we gonna be balling.

[Tim Ross]

Yeah.

[Lecrae]

I never saw it being nothing. Right. So when it became something, I was like, okay, Lord. But it was the Holy Spirit that told me the way that you've always mentored and discipled people privately is the way I now need you to talk publicly. My response was, I'm gonna get canceled. And he said, go ahead and get canceled. And then when I did, I was like, why did I get canceled? Cause my feelings was hurt. Right. So the levels were, I got homies that were just like, you already know I rock with you, but I can't have you come no more. Cause it's just too much. And I'm like, salute. I get you. Then I had people that were like, I don't know why you're doing that, but we believe in you, so we still gonna pay you, but you can't come.

[Tim Ross]

Woo.

[Lecrae]

Woo. I cashed the check, but then I was like, I don't. I'm not sure. I think you want to be me and Kent. Now, is the language I use at my house appropriate for a pulpit? No, but can we keep it a buck?

[Tim Ross]

Yeah.

[Lecrae]

Okay. Whoever doesn't believe Barack Obama says, nigga is crazy. Cray cray. He listens to J. Cole. He gives a. He gives a playlist every year. He was born and raised on the south side of Chicago. Craig, stop. Are we going to act like Obama? Yo has never been talking to Michelle in the middle of the night and be like, michelle, I'm just letting you know these niggas are crazy. I have to do the public. I Have to talk to the nation tomorrow. Oh, shoot. And I know that Russia's probably thinking about doing some stuff that they shouldn't be doing, but I'm gonna deal with it.

[Tim Ross]

Yeah.

[Lecrae]

When he gets up, my fellow Americans, because the State of the Union is a pulpit.

[Tim Ross]

Yeah, yeah.

[Lecrae]

Nobody's ever heard me use a strong word in the pulpit.

[Tim Ross]

Yeah.

[Lecrae]

I wouldn't say nigga in the pulpit.

[Tim Ross]

Right.

[Lecrae]

It's a sacred desk.

[Tim Ross]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Lecrae]

Even stripper.

[Tim Ross]

You wouldn't intentionally say anything that you felt like was.

[Lecrae]

No, I'm not trying to cause controversy. I am being a human who is in love with Jesus.

[Tim Ross]

Yeah.

[Lecrae]

And it's crazy to me that the Duck Dynasty people got to be as country bumpkin as they wanted to be, and they was good old Christians, and they got to come preach at churches with camo on.

[Tim Ross]

Yeah, yeah.

[Lecrae]

But you want me to have a fade.

[Tim Ross]

Yeah.

[Lecrae]

My braids scare you, right? So maybe it's not even what I say or the way I say it. Maybe it's my cultural ethnic lens. You like a good country boy, but you can't handle a nigga from the hood and just say that. Yeah, just say that.

[Tim Ross]

Sometimes I embrace the reality that I'm here to till hard soil and move rocks.

[Lecrae]

Right.

[Tim Ross]

Or to plant seeds in soil that nobody else wants to plant seeds in. Sometimes I embrace that because I realize that some people are only used to gathering the harvest that somebody like. Like you don't. You're. You are dealing with the person who came to church on Sunday and was broken down and says, I want to accept Jesus, but I met that person when they were a stripper. I met them when they were a stripper. And then was planting seeds.

[Lecrae]

Correct.

[Tim Ross]

In that.

[Lecrae]

While they were still going back to Magic City.

[Tim Ross]

Exactly.

[Lecrae]

Exactly.

[Tim Ross]

And now they've gotten to this place where you got the harvest. But. But I'm okay with that.

[Lecrae]

Right.

[Tim Ross]

That's why I'm just like, yeah, yeah, One man.

[Lecrae]

One man plants. Other man waters. God gets the increase.

[Tim Ross]

That's right.

[Lecrae]

I'm not tripping.

[Tim Ross]

Yeah.

[Lecrae]

Yeah. For sure.

[Tim Ross]

So I just think that. And I not think I know, because I've seen the basement community, which they are, like, rabid. Like, it's a. Like, someone could do a case study on building community based off of your basement community. Like, they are serious.

[Lecrae]

Yes, sir.

[Tim Ross]

But I've seen their lives transformed. I've seen them get tattoos.

[Lecrae]

Yes, sir.

[Tim Ross]

Of the basement on them because of the transformation that's happened. But it would not have happened if you weren't the version of you that you are correct.

[Lecrae]

I've reached more people in the, in the last almost four years of doing this podcast than I reached in 27 years preaching. If I never did this podcast and I was still in that preaching arc, there was nothing in me that was restless about, I want to reach more souls. I was happy with whatever assignment God gave me. Yeah, he told me to do this right. And wisdom has proven to be right by its results. A lot of times in real time, when you're pioneering something that few have seen, you're gonna be misunderstood. I hate being misunderstood, so I had to even die to that. But now, almost four years in, I'm like, you don't have to understand till later or you never have to get it. But like, lesbians are getting divorced from each other because I was talking about a pod that had nothing to do with the LGBTQIA plus community. Husbands are going to. Going home to confess to their wives. I've been living a double life, and they're experiencing freedom in a way they never have. And I never had an explicit pod that was like, today I'm going to address men living double lives, but just by being vulnerable and authentic. Me going first is giving people permission to go second.

[Tim Ross]

Yeah.

[Lecrae]

And if I were to talk to my target audience now, the way I preach to my congregation, then we wouldn't have the success that we have.

[Tim Ross]

Right? That's good. Yeah, it's good. I kind of want to talk about something sensitive, as if we haven't been talking about sensitive stuff already. But, you know, you, you have this somewhat, some would say apostolic call, right. To go from place to place. And some may not know this, but, you know, I mean, you, you talked about it a little today here is like, you walked away from, you know, pastors and leaders. You walked away from being a pastor at a very prominent church, you know, prominent in the Dallas Fort Worth area. A church that was in many ways handed to you.

[Lecrae]

Right.

[Tim Ross]

By Robert Morris, who, you know, was accused of sexually assaulting a 12 year old girl. Well, who not accused, like confessed.

[Lecrae]

Yeah, for sure.

[Tim Ross]

Was charged with it. Yeah. You know, when you look at, because you know this man, who you didn't. You saw one side of him, the side of him that says, man, I want to, you know, bless you, I want to invest in you, so on and so forth. But now looking back as a, as a man who's been molested.

[Lecrae]

Yeah, for sure.

[Tim Ross]

As an 8 year old child, like, how do you process all of that?

[Lecrae]

Yeah, it's a great Question you asked. So obviously, when the details came out about what Robert did, I was angry. Like, just a lot of my childhood trauma came up knowing about it and not coming up in a way that left me dysregulated, but just the reminder of the injustice that had happened to me. And then when you're doing the math on. Okay, if you were 21, 22, and she was 12, and then it went on for five years.

[Tim Ross]

Damn.

[Lecrae]

You know what I'm saying? Like, when you do the math on it, you like, ooh, okay. So. And when you're that type of a prominent figure and you've been leading the church with that much influence, and you got ties to the White House and all kind of stuff, I'm just a very basic person. So I'm like. When that came out, I'm like, bro, you're out of here. Like, step down. Right?

[Tim Ross]

Yeah.

[Lecrae]

And it didn't happen fast enough for me. I don't know what needed to happen behind the scenes or whatever, but it didn't happen fast enough for me. So I was angry. And then when he finally did step down, I was relieved. And then I had to process it on my pod. Like, that's. He's one of my spiritual fathers. Right. I only got two. He's one of them. Right. And in many ways, he's been Mr. Drummond. If I'm Willis, that's Mr. Drummond. You know what I mean? Like, so I was in a Different Strokes world. Yeah, bro. So I remember. I processed it with our community. I. I remember being the Holy Spirit. Letting me know that you can talk about this in a way that is going to help victims, but whatever anger you feel for him, you need to process that privately. Don't do that publicly. And so I did. I. I was like, hey, I want to help other people that are survivors if this has triggered you, whatever. So we held space for that. We talked very candidly about that, but. But then Robert wound up having to do time for it. And this is a man that I still love. Right. This is something that happened 40 something years ago that should have been handed in the. Handled in a different way. It wasn't handled in a different way. So an unprecedented Oklahoma law.

[Tim Ross]

Yeah.

[Lecrae]

Means that he has to do jail time for this. Right. For six months. Does that undo everything he did for me? No. And he owned the whole thing.

[Tim Ross]

Yeah.

[Lecrae]

So we're not dealing with a man who has tried to challenge the truth, tried to downplay it, tried to spin it. He was like, I did that. And I thought at the time I handled it the way the people in my life at that season, in that season told me to handle it.

[Tim Ross]

Yeah.

[Lecrae]

Clearly, that wasn't the advice or what I was told wasn't all that needed to be done. So I own it. I've always owned it. Now I got to own it again, and I got to do the jail time for it. At that point, it was like, there's no way my brother did 11 years. Ain't no way homie's going to jail, and I'm not writing him. Ain't no way homie's going to jail, and I'm not going to see him. And so I set up what I needed to set up so I could video call him and so I could stay in touch with him while he was in there for them six months.

[Tim Ross]

Now, some people are going to say, you're bugging right now, right? Because you scathed over what it takes people a lifetime to process, which is grace.

[Lecrae]

Right.

[Tim Ross]

Like, you're bugging that man need to be under a cell still. How can you go see him after what he's done to a child? And on and on goes the pattern. We visit people in prison.

[Lecrae]

Right.

[Tim Ross]

We have sat with the worst of the worst, people who've done terrible things. It's a little easier to understand the concept of grace and understand, like, Jesus died for the worst of the worst, and we're walking in his shoes. But for the person who's saying, you bugging? Yeah. Like, what do you. How do you help them process? Like, because what I think people think is we're a culture of excusing things like.

[Lecrae]

No.

[Tim Ross]

Like, it's moving on.

[Lecrae]

Yeah.

[Tim Ross]

You know? But that's not what you're saying.

[Lecrae]

No. So, again, my mother worked for the LAPD for 30 years. I wanted to be in law enforcement. I'm not a lawyer, but I know enough of the law to know that the law is gonna prosecute you based on what they can actually win. What happened to Cindy was atrocious. It happened in her own home under her father's roof. There is no excusing any of that. And.

[Tim Ross]

And.

[Lecrae]

And is the conjunction that most Western Christians are too lazy to use in their vocabulary because we don't live in a culture that wants to hold tension. We live in a culture that wants to relieve it. So I can't hold this. I got to put. I want to put it down. And it's like the Olden Testament is meant to be held, not resolved. It's meant to be held in tension. Jesus being fully man and fully divine is meant to be held in tension.

[Tim Ross]

Yeah.

[Lecrae]

Us being sinners, saved by grace, that makes us righteous. But we still have sinful nature is meant to be held in tension. For you to try to resolve it is. You're just too lazy. Your shoulder caps burn. Just say that. Just say your shoulder caps burn. Say you're. Say you're trembling because I don't want to hold this anymore.

[Tim Ross]

Yeah.

[Lecrae]

If Robert Morris could have been prosecuted and done 50 years, it wouldn't have been enough for somebody. They could only prosecute him. And based on what he pled to, he got six months and he did it. He's registered as a sex offender for the rest of his life.

[Tim Ross]

Yeah.

[Lecrae]

You won't hear him again. Preach. What do you want? Cindy's healing.

[Tim Ross]

I think that's the question I'm always wanting to ask people is what do you want? Because I think they want punitive justice.

[Lecrae]

Of course they want it based on. Which is why we're not God. Yeah, right. I tell people all the time, I couldn't have been Jesus because you think I'm a die on cross for you to have an option to choose me.

[Tim Ross]

Yeah.

[Lecrae]

If I die for you, I am Freddy Krueger. I am Jason. I am Michael Myers. I'm saw 1, 2 and 3. I am that clown in it. Mash up all the horror movies. You're going to serve me, dog.

[Tim Ross]

Oh, my God.

[Lecrae]

I'm not bleeding out on the cross for you to have an option. You gonna serve me, right? So I can't beat Jesus just off that strength. I'm too petty, right? I'm too petty. You're haunted, right? You are haunted. I. I will. Do you, like, remember that first Matrix when Neo was getting interrogated by Agent Smith and he's like, I'm gonna do this and this. And he said, with what mouth? And then it just yammed up. I would do that to people all the time and be like, oh, you don't like the life I gave you? Yeah, breathe, don't breathe. I'm too petty. So thank you, Holy Spirit. Okay, so I'm walking in a park one day and I'm on the phone with somebody. And I know you've had this moment where the Holy Spirit says something out of your mouth that you've never said before or thought. And but since it came out of your mouth, the person listening thinks you're dope. And you're like, that actually was me. That was not me. Right. So. So I'm walking. I'M walking on this trail, 7 o' clock in the morning, talking to my friend, and he's telling me about a situation that's very offensive, and he wants to retaliate. And I said, you can't retaliate. I said, scripture says that vengeance is the Lord's and he shall repay. I said, do you want to know why the Lord is so possessive of vengeance? Why does he say, it's mine? Vengeance is mine. I'm the only one that can repay. The Lord couldn't keep us from feeling it, but he keeps us from executing it. Why? Because on our best day as a human, we're not righteous enough to exact vengeance justly. So the Lord says, I know what happened to you was offensive. I know what happened to you was an injustice. But you don't have enough righteousness and justice to execute vengeance properly. Leave that to me.

[Tim Ross]

That's good.

[Lecrae]

Let me repay it. Because you don't know how I can get at him. You might want him in prison for 50 years. And the way I might want to do it is just not a way that you would ever let me do this.

[Tim Ross]

And praise God for that.

[Lecrae]

Praise God.

[Tim Ross]

I need restorative justice.

[Lecrae]

Hey, bro.

[Tim Ross]

Cause I done done some things that I'm like, lord, thank you for restoring me.

[Lecrae]

Oh, for sure.

[Tim Ross]

And not punitive.

[Lecrae]

Oh, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So I just think that, you know, Robert Morris is a. Is a good man. Here's what I'm tired of, Lecrae. I'm tired of. The only people being known for everything that they've done and still being beloved are dead people. In our canonized book. With 2000 years that has passed.

[Tim Ross]

That's good. You're right.

[Lecrae]

Ain't nobody mad at Peter for denying Jesus.

[Tim Ross]

Nah. David would be clipped and canceled. But yet. And still we don't do that at all.

[Lecrae]

We don't do it for. For none of them. And so, you know, Robert Morris is a good man who did something that hurt a woman and altered the trajectory of his life. Of her life.

[Tim Ross]

And there's consequences for our actions.

[Lecrae]

And there's consequences for our actions.

[Tim Ross]

Two things can be true.

[Lecrae]

Two. But you got to hold tension to hold two things.

[Tim Ross]

Martin Luther King was an amazing leader.

[Lecrae]

Yes.

[Tim Ross]

An amazing man. And the FBI got them tapes.

[Lecrae]

Yes. Two things came. And them tapes got some things on it. Huh? Got some things on them tapes. Right. But are we gonna take down the I have a Dream speech?

[Tim Ross]

No.

[Lecrae]

You think I'm gonna stop reading the Blessed Life? Yeah.

[Tim Ross]

No.

[Lecrae]

Stop playing with me. That's not Happening.

[Tim Ross]

All right, so before we get into this book, the missing piece. I want to talk about a missing piece really quick.

[Lecrae]

Got it.

[Tim Ross]

Not P A, but P. I. Yeah. A lot of people don't know. Some do that. We were a part of something called the B side.

[Lecrae]

We were. Right. We were.

[Tim Ross]

You know, and, you know, I never really publicly said that. I'm not a part of it anymore.

[Lecrae]

Yep.

[Tim Ross]

I never made any statements. You did, though.

[Lecrae]

I had to.

[Tim Ross]

You did.

[Lecrae]

Yeah.

[Tim Ross]

And you were. You were pretty vulnerable about why the. The B side was no longer. You. You actually went so far as to say, like, you thought you heard from God and maybe you missed it.

[Lecrae]

Yeah, right.

[Tim Ross]

Like, maybe I missed it.

[Lecrae]

Yeah.

[Tim Ross]

But what I find interesting is that you feel like, man, maybe I missed it because I didn't hear from God, but if there was no B side, we wouldn't be sitting here right now.

[Lecrae]

Facts. Absolutely. So you and Carl have helped me with this, man.

[Tim Ross]

Yeah.

[Lecrae]

Yeah. I do feel like the Holy Spirit told me that I did not consult the Lord before going into business with my co founder.

[Tim Ross]

That's good.

[Lecrae]

It doesn't mean the company was bad. I didn't consult the Lord before I went into business with this person. We already had a relationship, but we hadn't worked together. And sometimes you can be in connection with somebody and it, like, you can be good friends with somebody. Don't date them.

[Tim Ross]

That's right.

[Lecrae]

You can have, like, a dope, platonic relationship with old girls, but then y' all date, and it's like, no, we should have never done this. Like, you know what I mean? We were better off staying friends. And so that's what it was for. He and I, we. We did some good collaborations together. And he. He was a avid supporter for what I was doing. But the moment we worked together.

[Tim Ross]

Yeah, it was the dynamic.

[Lecrae]

It changed the dynamic.

[Tim Ross]

I got friends like that.

[Lecrae]

Yeah, right?

[Tim Ross]

I got friends. I'm like, yo, yo, we only gonna be friends, bro.

[Lecrae]

Right? We should never work together. I got family members like that. Right. It's like. It's like, yo, I love you, but you can't work here. Yeah, like, I can't. Yeah, you can't work over here. Right. So. So that's what it was. I do not regret the fruit of that season.

[Tim Ross]

Yeah.

[Lecrae]

I just had to repent for what the Lord showed me.

[Tim Ross]

That's good.

[Lecrae]

I did not consult the Lord before going into business.

[Tim Ross]

That's actually challenging because I don't think a lot of people consult the Lord before they make those types of decisions.

[Lecrae]

Yeah, yeah, for sure.

[Tim Ross]

That's actually really challenging.

[Lecrae]

I made it and. Because that's like my norm.

[Tim Ross]

Yeah.

[Lecrae]

What I realized was this was that subtle assumption that. Because that I. Here's what the equation. Well, that worked and that worked. So this will surely work. Yeah, we work like this. It was cool. Yeah, like this was cool. If we work like that, it'll be cool. And that subtle assumption is not the voice of the Lord.

[Tim Ross]

That's good, man.

[Lecrae]

Okay. Okay, here's another part. Thank you, Holy Spirit. This is a big detail. I grew up in a Pentecostal culture that had phrases like this, where there's. Where God gives you vision, there's provision, Right? Amen. When God gives you a big vision for something, he gonna always support the vision. He gonna always bring people to support the vision. And this person had the means to support the vision that I had. And the valuable lesson I learned is that man's provision is not God's voice.

[Tim Ross]

Ooh, ooh.

[Lecrae]

Man's provision is not confirmation of God's voice, of God's voice.

[Tim Ross]

That's very anti prosperity of you.

[Lecrae]

Just because they can write the check doesn't mean that the Lord wanted them to write the check for you.

[Tim Ross]

Ooh wee. That's good.

[Lecrae]

They are not Jehovah Jireh. He is man.

[Tim Ross]

That's a bar.

[Lecrae]

So that's a bar. That's what I learned.

[Tim Ross]

I gotta chew on that. I gotta go back and re. Watch this for that right there. That's. I gotta chew on that.

[Lecrae]

Yeah.

[Tim Ross]

All right, Tell me about the Mississippi. Who is this book for? Why did you write it?

[Lecrae]

I wrote this book because this was the culmination lecrae of 30 years of being saved, 28 years of being in therapy. So, you know, it's only been the last maybe, let's say six to eight years that mental health has been more commonplace in our culture. Yeah, I get tickled sometimes. It's only been in like the last five to seven years, where people even have loose definition definitions of narcissist. Gaslighting triggered the words trauma, you know what I mean? Dysregulation, regulation, all that kind of stuff. They only got like TikTok sound bites of it, Right. I've been. I've been a client of for 28 years. I've been on somebody's couch and. Or chair for 28 years processing my trauma, processing my grief, all the things. Right. And it became a lifestyle. And so what I realized was, especially against this backdrop that we're living in right now, people don't have language for what they're feeling. And whatever doesn't come up and out of your words, whatever doesn't come up and out of your mouth through words is going to come up and out of your. Your body through actions. Oh, and we see a lot of people acting out right now, and they're acting out because they don't have language for the way they feel. So I felt like this book was important because Jesus came to leave us peace. The one out of everything he could have left us. In John 14:27, he said, Shalom, I leave with you. Shalom I give to you, but not as the world gives. Which implies that the world does have a version of peace, but it's temporary. And we can go from the illicit side to the complicit side, right? You got your drugs on this side, your porn, your sex, your. Your violence, whatever, right? Whatever you're doing to numb the pain, distract yourself. That's the illicit side. The complicit side is binge watching, spending stuff that you don't have the resources to actually sustain. I got a retail share. I gotta have the most expensive shoes. I gotta be sane. I gotta live in this house. I gotta drive that car. PS5 yourself to death. Game yourself to death. Entertain yourself to death. Yeah, I'm going on another vacation. I'm going on another cruise. I'm going to see Bruno Mars again in Vegas, right? And both sides are wrong. Both sides numb and distract. One feels better than you, feel a little bit better about yourself over here than you do over here. But you're still numbing and distracting. Jesus said, I don't want to give you a temporary version of peace. I'm giving you a. A peace that's permanent. So neither be thou troubled or afraid. Now, how come he didn't leave his money? How come he didn't leave us wisdom? How come he didn't leave us knowledge or revelation? Why was it peace? Because he knew. I don't care how much power the Holy Spirit comes to give you, if you're dysregulated, you will corrupt it, abuse it and destroy it.

[Tim Ross]

That's good.

[Lecrae]

Everybody that has power in any type of way, right? But no peace. All they do is abuse, corrupt and destroy with it.

[Tim Ross]

That's really good, right?

[Lecrae]

That's from. And I'm not saying this specifically about the current administration that goes. But in our nation, the highest seat of power would be the president's seat, right? The Oval Office. If you're there and you have no peace, you're threatening to open up the nuclear codes. Right. If you have power, influence, but you have no peace, you turn an island into your own illicit playground. Right. If you have power, but you don't have peace, you turn every artist you sign into your sex life.

[Tim Ross]

Yeah.

[Lecrae]

So I think the Messiah was right to live his peace. And because Isaiah said he's the prince of peace, I just assume if that's what you the prince of, that's the only gift you can leave us. But it was meant to literally regulate our nervous system.

[Tim Ross]

Yeah. So this is like the crash out cure.

[Lecrae]

I bet you it is.

[Tim Ross]

Yeah.

[Lecrae]

Dr. Sarai Crane. Shout out to Black Roy. But Dr. Sarai Crane, who wrote the forward to the book, told me, she said if a person reads this book, it's the equivalent of getting two years of therapy.

[Tim Ross]

Therapy.

[Lecrae]

Trauma, informed therapy. Yeah.

[Tim Ross]

So if a person reads this book, it's the equivalent of the thousands of dollars that I have spent.

[Lecrae]

Absolutely. For less than thousands.

[Tim Ross]

A hundred dollars.

[Lecrae]

All caps. Thousands. For less than 50.

[Tim Ross]

Less than 50 bucks.

[Lecrae]

Thousands. Like I, I, if people. First of all, you won't finish this book. If you're not ready to face yourself, you will not make it through the first five chapters. If you're not willing to have that mirror put up in front of you because there's questions you gotta answer at the end of every chapter. If you're not ready to do that work, you will start it and put it down and you probably won't go back.

[Tim Ross]

There's a quote in there where you talk about community and you say bleeding together is better than bleeding alone.

[Lecrae]

For sure.

[Tim Ross]

What do you like? Why is that? I don't wanna bleed at all.

[Lecrae]

Right? For sure. So you know we from the hood, right?

[Tim Ross]

Yeah.

[Lecrae]

So you know, if, if we was on, if we was on Crenshaw on Sunday and Lolo's hopping, right? Lolo's is hopping and the girls is out. And, and we, we feeling ourselves. We good. And we cross the wrong group, right? And they get to dumping. We get hit. We on the floor bleeding out. We got hurt in community.

[Tim Ross]

That's right.

[Lecrae]

Right. Are we going to heal alone? No, you're going to die. That's what you're going to do, Right? But guess what? A community is blaring down the street with sirens. It's a different community than we got hurt in. But this group of people come blaring down the street, they block off, they set up a perimeter, they stabilize us on the spot, throw us in a vehicle and skirt us off to a whole hospital. That has a whole nother community that wants to heal what this community hurt.

[Tim Ross]

That's good.

[Lecrae]

If I'm going to bleed, I need to be bleeding with people that want to see me healed.

[Tim Ross]

Ah, that's good. That's good.

[Lecrae]

Yeah.

[Tim Ross]

That's fire.

[Lecrae]

Yes, sir.

[Tim Ross]

That's in his book.

[Lecrae]

Yeah.

[Tim Ross]

There's a million things that I think the Lord has yet to do with you. You still breathing, so he's not done, brother. Thank you, man.

[Lecrae]

I love you, man.

[Tim Ross]

You a gift for sure. We appreciate you, man.

[Lecrae]

Absolutely, bro.

[Tim Ross]

You know, keep going. And. And thank you for the missing piece for show. Yeah.

[Lecrae]

I love you, bro.

[Tim Ross]

Love you, too, man.

[Lecrae]

All right, man.