Touré Roberts Has a REAL Convo on Marriage, Sarah Jakes Roberts, & TD Jakes

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Deep End With Lecrae

Episode: Touré Roberts Has a REAL Convo on Marriage, Sarah Jakes Roberts, & TD Jakes
Host: Lecrae
Guest: Touré Roberts
Date: May 21, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this deeply honest and wide-ranging conversation, Lecrae sits down with Pastor, entrepreneur, and author Touré Roberts. The two men discuss overcoming trauma, navigating success while holding onto spiritual integrity, reframing poverty and prosperity in the church, and balancing marriage, family, and public ministry. They go beneath the surface of Touré’s upbringing, business career, and marriage to Sarah Jakes Roberts, offering practical wisdom for anyone "picking up the pieces" of life.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Overcoming Adversity and Building Identity (03:33–09:40)

• Touré’s Youth in Watts: Grew up around gangs but was shielded from direct involvement by older mentors who saw his potential. His mother provided exposure to different worlds by sending him to private school.
  • "I've always had favor, like ever since I can remember...The real ones was like, dude, what are you doing, man? Like, don't be hanging out with these knuckleheads right here. Go. You got a shot. So...there's integrity in the hood." (05:00–06:11)
• Near-Death Trauma: Shot at age 16; considered it a dark turning point, but later reframed it as a day of deliverance after surviving miraculously.
  • "That wasn't a dark day. That was a day of your deliverance. And I need you to reframe how you're seeing it." (09:03–09:40)

2. Formative Family & Black Panther Influence (10:10–12:26)

• Family Background: Both parents were Black Panthers—his mother motivated by service, his father a Vietnam vet and revolutionary. This shaped his approach to disruption and challenging the status quo, which later influenced his ministry style.
  • "I was literally conceived in the context of revolution...the context of saying, status quo is not it." (11:00–11:30)

3. The Power of Access, Exposure & Personal Growth (06:33–17:17)

• Exposure: Being exposed to “more” changes what one sees as possible. Both Touré and Lecrae emphasize how seeing different ways of living can be life-changing.
• On Success: Success emerges from relentless growth and refusing to be complacent. Touré remains “suspicious” of his current level, always leaning into what’s next.
  • "I'm suspicious of this level because if I'm still alive, if I still got breath in my body, God ain't finished with me." (17:17–18:16)

4. Reconciling Wealth, Ambition, and Faith (19:47–32:43)

• Poverty Mindset in the Church: Both discuss the stigma against wealth and ambition among Christians, and how it's abused and misunderstood.
  • "It's a poverty contest." (23:50, Touré)
• God’s View of Prosperity: Touré distinguishes between business and spiritual anointing, discusses biblical precedent for stewardship, and challenges the misuse of "wealth of the wicked" scripture.
  • "Who ever said that wealth was evil? ...We see business, or at least a business mindset, in creation." (25:00–26:30)
• Correcting Misinterpretation: Roberts dissects Proverbs 13:22, arguing for active stewardship and generational inheritance, not passive waiting.
  • "The sinner is the one that doesn't leave an inheritance for his children's children." (30:13–30:16)
• Influence and Calling in Non-Church Spaces: Roberts stresses that ministry can—and should—extend into business, culture, and other “secular” realms.
  • "When I put my business hat on, I'm able to sit at tables that Torre the pastor would never be able to sit at." (27:25–28:34)

5. Marriage, Vulnerability, and Navigating Public Life (35:17–65:35)

• Sarah Jakes Roberts’ Recent Accident: Touré shares openly about his wife’s traumatic injury, his emotional response, and the importance of vulnerability—even as a leader.
  • "I didn't have time to address the trauma that that whole scenario brought onto me...I cried this morning." (40:10–41:55)
• Origin Story with Sarah: Their relationship began at a time of personal reset after divorces. Roberts is candid about preconceived misconceptions, public scrutiny over their age gap, and critical voices who questioned motives.
  • "I'm expecting some church girl...she comes in here with some jeans on, some thigh high boots...well, this is peculiar." (45:34–45:48)
• Meeting Bishop T.D. Jakes: Shares the nerve-wracking experience of meeting his legendary father-in-law, who directly confronted him:
  • "'You know, you got my daughter's heart in your hands.' He looked like a wild man…I'll kill him. I'm hugging him...but I'll kill him." (54:00–54:30 and 01:16–01:40)
  • "I know what's right with you—tell me what's wrong with you." (58:13)
• Navigating Dual Leadership/Public Marriage: Both spouses are prominent public figures. Touré emphasizes the value of high self-esteem, lack of competition in their marriage, and the respect for each other's strengths and roles.
  • "My makeup is to make people great...I'm not intimidated by anyone else's greatness at all." (59:54–61:41)
  • On business tension: Negotiates how his business instincts sometimes differ from Sarah’s creative nurturing, but honors her instincts and vision. (61:41–62:40)

6. Succession and Stewardship at The Potter’s House (65:35–68:51)

• Taking the Baton from Bishop Jakes: Touré recognizes the immense responsibility of leading one of America’s largest churches and remains committed to preserving his marriage, identity, and family through the process.
  • "It was very important...to not lose Torre in the process of taking over The Potter's House." (66:12–68:51)

7. Spiritual Instincts, Stillness, and the New Book (68:51–78:12)

• On “Knowing”—His New Book: Inspired by his daughter Ella writing the foreword, Touré describes “knowing” as an innate, God-given sense akin to a spiritual organ of perception that can be traced, trained, and trusted.
  • "We have to trace it...train it...trust it." (73:21–75:17)
• Strategy for Clarity and Stillness: In a noisy culture, success depends on practicing stillness—only in stillness does he trust himself to move.
  • "I can only move because I'm still. I don't even trust running unless I'm still. I am afraid of running hard in the wrong direction." (77:41–78:00)
• Legacy and Purpose: Touré aims to "market the gift of God" on his life for the benefit of others, pushing through misperceptions and surface judgments to impact the world.
  • "I'm trying to get what God put in me out of me, I'm trying to market the gift of God that's on my life to the effect that other people's lives will be changed." (79:07–80:19)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Reframing Trauma:
  "God corrected me. He's like, man, that wasn't a dark day. That was a day of your deliverance...the weapon was formed, but it didn't prosper..." (09:03–09:40)

• On Generational Wealth:
  "A good man leaves an inheritance with his children's children. And the wealth of the sinner is stored up for the righteous...the sinner is the one that doesn't leave an inheritance for his children's children." (30:13–30:16)

• On Public Scrutiny in Marriage:
  "Sometimes the reason why you hear stuff is that you're flying too low...I'd have to bring my plane from 40,000 down to 4,000 to even be able to pick up the signal of people who don't matter. So I keep my plane high." (50:27–52:47)

• On Stillness in Leadership:
  "I can only move because I’m still...I am afraid of running hard in the wrong direction." (77:41–78:00)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Touré’s life growing up in Watts: 03:33–05:41
• Being shot at 16 and reframing trauma: 06:57–09:40
• Influence of the Black Panthers on his worldview: 10:10–12:26
• Reconciling faith and ambition/wealth: 19:47–32:43
• Marriage to Sarah Jakes Roberts and navigating criticism: 35:17–54:30
• Meeting Bishop Jakes (“I’ll kill him.”): 54:00–54:30 and 01:16–01:40
• Public marriage, partnership, and family dynamics: 59:10–62:40
• Taking over The Potter’s House: 65:35–68:51
• Touré’s book “Knowing” and cultivating spiritual instinct: 68:51–78:12
• Closing thoughts on legacy, purpose, and impact: 78:12–80:19

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Tone & Takeaways

The conversation is raw, candid, and deeply practical without glossing over pain or difficulty. Both Lecrae and Touré model vulnerability and back their spiritual leadership with real-world experience—equally at home discussing bullet wounds, corporate exits, scriptural exegesis, and family trauma. The episode encourages listeners to pursue healing, embrace their unique callings, move beyond poverty mindsets, and cultivate an inner sense of spiritual knowing—while unapologetically pursuing impact, legacy, and abundance, both in faith and business.

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To hear the full conversation, tune into “The Deep End With Lecrae: Touré Roberts Has a REAL Convo on Marriage, Sarah Jakes Roberts, & TD Jakes” (May 21, 2026).

Transcript

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[Lecrae]

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[Toure Roberts]

I wasn't expecting her to look like she looked. I'm expecting some church girl. She's the daughter of the bishop. Yeah, that girl comes in here with some jeans on, some thigh high boots in la and I'm like, well, this is peculiar.

[Lecrae]

What is this age gap? Is he just trying to get into the Jake's family?

[Toure Roberts]

And now I'm gonna be honest with you. I remember I was going to meet Bishop concerning Sarah. He's in la. And I was like, hey, Bishop. Yeah, I'm ture. And he was like, you know, you got my daughter's heart in your hands. He looked like a wild man. I kill him. I'm hugging him. I'm taking his vision, but I'll kill him.

[Lecrae]

I want to switch it up a little bit. The circles that I ran in were very critical of Bishop Jakes. And I'm like, why would we not want to go in and redeem the way business is done.

[Toure Roberts]

I'm going to get in trouble. I'm going to just say it.

[Lecrae]

Yeah.

[Toure Roberts]

And I love everybody. You always hear this scripture, the wealth of the wicked is stood up for the righteous and broke. Church people be like, yes, no. If you don't work, nobody's coming to save you. This is the deep end with Lecrae.

[Lecrae]

All right. So today I have the pleasure of talking with somebody who actually is far

[Toure Roberts]

more

[Lecrae]

complex than you would ever expect. There are many facets to his diamond. This man is a pastor, a best selling author, an entrepreneur, a producer. Founded a church and built it into one of the fastest growing multi congregational, multicultural congregations in the city of Los Angeles. And then merged it with into the Potter's house brand in 2017. And then not too long ago, the one and only Bishop T.D. jakes announced that this man and his wife would become the senior pastors of the Potter's House Church in Dallas, one of the largest, most influential megachurches in America. I have the pleasure of sitting with the one and the only Torre Roberts, man.

[Toure Roberts]

The honor's mine.

[Lecrae]

Yeah, man.

[Toure Roberts]

I got taken to green room. I was listening to your album.

[Lecrae]

Oh, wow.

[Toure Roberts]

I text you when it first came out, like, and it just popped up in my, like new music stuff. Yeah. And I was like, man, this is good.

[Lecrae]

Oh, man, I appreciate that.

[Toure Roberts]

And there was some LA stuff in there.

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Are you from la?

[Toure Roberts]

Of course.

[Lecrae]

I sold San Diego. Yeah, there you go. But I spent a lot of time in la. I got cousins from Inglewood, so I would go visit them in Inglewood and visit them. I had some other family in Compton, so I would go visit Compton as well, which I did not know you were from Watts.

[Toure Roberts]

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

[Lecrae]

You wouldn't. This is not giving Watts.

[Toure Roberts]

Yeah.

[Lecrae]

So you've come a long way.

[Toure Roberts]

I have, I have. But believe it or not, the, the instincts, okay, that, that, that I amassed in Watts, the strength, the courage, the, the perception, the discernment. Believe it or not, all God found a way to bring that into creating the person who can look like this. If that makes sense.

[Lecrae]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely.

[Toure Roberts]

Yeah.

[Lecrae]

No, I mean, again, you know, it's a lot of times it's not about whether or not people are gifted or have the acumen, it's that they don't have the access.

[Toure Roberts]

Yes.

[Lecrae]

And so you were in a place where you didn't have the access, but you had the acumen.

[Toure Roberts]

Yes.

[Lecrae]

And people saw that.

[Toure Roberts]

Yes.

[Lecrae]

So even the gang members, they said, we don't want you in the gang because you talk. Tell me about that, man.

[Toure Roberts]

It was crazy. So I had. I've always had favor, like ever since I can remember. And so where I grew up, it wasn't a matter of whether or not you were in a gang, it's what gang are you in it? Literally. That's the culture, as you know. And. And so I gravitated toward a particular group and all of. And it was one of the most active groups. Active clubs, active fraternities. Yes.

[Lecrae]

Active country. Active country clubs.

[Toure Roberts]

Yes, yes. Yes. The most active in the. In the region. And I gravitated because I was always precocious. I was a little. You know, I always had an edge, an older, more mature edge. And so the older guys always gravitated toward me.

[Lecrae]

Okay.

[Toure Roberts]

And. And so one. They protected me from the younger guys. The young guys were kind of jealous, you know what I mean? Because I had a lot of stuff going on. But the real ones was like, dude, what are you doing, man? Like, don't be hanging out with these knuckleheads right here. Go. You got a shot. Yeah. So I had. And so that's what people don't realize. There's integrity in the hood. There's a lot more integrity than people think. Like, they're good people in the neighborhood in a challenging situation that lacked that access that you and I are talking about.

[Lecrae]

Right, right.

[Toure Roberts]

But my mom, recognizing the power of access, sent me to private school. And that was the game changer, because I got over there, I saw how these cats were living. I went to a guy's house who had the full family package, and I was like, I can do that. I want that. I be that. Once you're exposed, you're never the same.

[Lecrae]

That's what it is. It's the exposure that changes. A product of that myself, growing up in a. Definitely an environment didn't have a lot of access, but my mother scraped and saved, fought hard to put me in better school district, so I totally understand it now. Am I wrong? You got shot or shot at?

[Toure Roberts]

I got shot at, too. But no, I got shot when I was 16 years old.

[Lecrae]

Wow.

[Toure Roberts]

I got shot, almost died. The bullet went in kind of the back of my shoulder here, lodged itself in my esophagus. I'm on the ground on 103rd in McKinley in Watts, spitting up blood. 16. Thought it was over, you know, and. And called on the Lord, prepared myself to go. It was so bad that when I got to the hospital, I was in the emergency room, and my mom beat me there. And I looked at her, and I was like, mom, I'm sorry. I'm sorry that I got myself into this trouble. I said, but don't worry. If I die, I'm going to heaven. I told my mom this, and I knew it, and I meant it. I had a conviction about salvation. I didn't know anything about walking in the spirit. I didn't have any of that. I went to or. I was exposed to a very traditional church, which basically put all the emphasis on salvation. So I had a conviction that out yeah, I'm going. But, mama, don't you worry. I said I'm sorry. And. And my mom, she didn't. Those roll. Those words roll right off her back. She had this focused look in her eyes, and she prayed. My body shook. Literally on the table, my body shook. They took X rays again, and the bullet which had lodged itself in my esophagus had moved down into a. An open area. Not an open area, but an area in my chest cavity, which made. Basically was a healing. Because two reasons. One, they didn't know what to do with this. Your throat. Like, what, do I move it? Do it. Does it take your. You know, and then it goes down here, but it doesn't. It doesn't tear up anything. How do you. How does a bullet.357 Magnum.

[Lecrae]

Wow.

[Toure Roberts]

How does it go from your throat to the lower part of your chest cavity without you? That's packed with organs.

[Lecrae]

Yeah.

[Toure Roberts]

Hits nothing. And so we saw a miracle in real time.

[Lecrae]

Wow.

[Toure Roberts]

And it's funny, you know, you bring that up. I used to actually share this recently at church. I used to look at the day that. That happened as a very dark day. And so much so was December 28th. So much so that I would. On. If I would look on the calendar December 28th, I would want to go home. Like, be. Be, you know, in the safe place. But God corrected me. He's like, man, that wasn't a dark day. That was a day of your deliverance. And I need you to reframe how you're seeing it. That's the day I saved you. The weapon was formed, but it didn't prosper, which meant that this was a day of my salvation. And it shifted everything for me.

[Lecrae]

Wow. I mean, that. That. That in of itself is, like, enough for a whole trajectory of a person's life. Like, that can shape and change a person's life. Your life has many, many, many things. In that moment alone, one of the things that, you know, we actually have in common is, well, I'll say slightly different. My mother was raised by the Black Panthers.

[Toure Roberts]

Oh, wow.

[Lecrae]

They fed her breakfast every morning.

[Toure Roberts]

Wow. The feeding program.

[Lecrae]

That's right. So she grew up with an aspiration to become one of them. She was raised. She was taught the principles. She sat in all the classes and so very militant and raised me with that kind of mindset. And so when I embraced Christianity, there was some tension.

[Toure Roberts]

Yeah.

[Lecrae]

Yeah. So I'm just curious because both of your parents were Black Panthers.

[Toure Roberts]

Yeah. Yeah, they were. So my. My parents met in the party My mom was from la. My dad was from Texas.

[Lecrae]

Okay.

[Toure Roberts]

They ended up in the Bay Area, Oakland, where we had the Oakland Community School there for kids. We had a, like a house where all of the Panther kids would, would, would live because the parents were out doing various things, working the community. My mom was drawn to the Black Panther Party because of her humanitarian aspect. She's got a massive heart, and so the feeding program that you're talking about is. And other things that we were doing in the community. She's a servant at heart, so that's what drew her there. My dad is ex military, Vietnam vet. You know, what's up? And so they got together. And when I think about what shaped me, I was literally conceived in the context of revolution, like the context of saying, status quo is not it. And, and, and, and we have the power to shift structures and systems. That is the zeitgeist that I was literally conceived into. My mom is a radical lover, Radical lover of people. My dad is a radical fighter. I have the best of both worlds. I love people like crazy, and yet I'll fight like crazy. And I am very suspicious of the limitations that people put on systems, on structures. And so, like, even as it relates to starting a church, I don't come from a long lineage of preachers, and I didn't have any of that. God touched me, and I said, you know what? I feel like I can do it in a way that will touch people like me. And that's how the church was started.

[Lecrae]

Yeah. I think people who come from these, these unconventional means and on the margins usually have a unique call and unique gifting and pull in a different type of person. And just looking at your story, it's like God was shaping you from the onset for some of the spaces and places that He's. That he's brought you into here.

[Toure Roberts]

It's crazy, but then not so crazy when you consider the brilliant, strategic nature of God. Like, he sees the end from the beginning. And that's why I tell people, like, you got to try hard not to give up before you grow up. Like, because your life is truly an unfolding. Like, it's, it's me. I've been through some, Some seasons in my life where if I would have, like, stopped in that moment and there was good reason to stop, to say, it's over, game over. If I would have stopped, I would have missed the next fold, you know, which was leading to the next fold. And so life just continues to unfold. And to your point, it's because God is A strategist. And so all of the pieces, maybe separately, they don't make sense. Separately, they are discouraging. But, but he is a master weaver of situations because he's looking at the blueprint. God is staring literally at the blueprint. And all we're looking at is little pieces, you know, on the diagram, and we're making decisions and even definitions based on those little pieces. But I've learned, man, that, that if you just stick with God and you just, you know, again, don't give up before you grow up, but you stay in the fight if you don't get weary, you know, in your well doing, in due season, you're gonna reap if you don't give up.

[Lecrae]

I love that. And I think some, you know, for some people, it's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, easy coming from you, Pastor Torre. You got all these amazing feats and things going on in your life, but, you know, as. As been going backwards in your life. Yeah, we can see like. No, there was some formation that was taking place and I'm, we were talking a little bit earlier about just some of your, your business acumen. Yeah, I think a lot of people, you know, they just, they think if you have the, the ability to speak well, then you, you, you know, you can do all of the things that you've been doing, you know, oh, you're just good communicator, so you can do all this. But when I go back into your, your, your history, I'm looking at you in your 20s, building data centers and, you know, working for Fortune 500 companies and doing that kind of work.

[Toure Roberts]

Who were you then? Man, that's, that's incredible. To your point, it is very easy to make assumptions when you see someone standing on what you perceive as a mountain. And what most people don't realize is most of the development that went into the people that you see standing on a mountain, you will never be able to perceive unless you went through that same process. So I am very, very reluctant to desire the life of the great because I can't have the life of the great without learning the lessons that they've learned. The hell that they've been through, all of that. But to your point, or to your question, rather, man, I was a young man who believed that there was more available to me than what was currently around me. So you got to remember, I was in Watts, but my mom messed around and, and showed me private school, showed me suburban life. So. And then I, and I was bused there, and then I had to come back To Watts. So what that did was that told me that where I. That there's more available to me than where I am. That's right. Right. So I was able to live in the tension between, you know, because I would get on that. But I will leave Watts, weed smell everywhere, you know, throwing up signs, you know, you name it. Police having people jacked up on the side of the road. I will leave all of that cat slanging on the corner, lowriders, you know, bandanas, you know, all of that kind of stuff. I will leave that. And then the further out I would go, there'd be less of that. More greenery, more shrubbery, nicer homes, less police. You know what I mean? Just, like, really chill. So every day that I went to school, I was witnessing the reality of more. And even though I didn't get to stay in it, I would be able to visit it.

[Lecrae]

You were exposed.

[Toure Roberts]

I was exposed. So as that young man that you're talking about, I became very suspicious of my current circumstances. I was very. Even to this day, like, people look at me and they might feel like, man, you. You're like, sitting on the top of a mountain or some mountain. Some people might think you on a mo, I don't know. But. But some people could look at some of the things that have happened and what I'm experiencing and say, man, he's there. But I'm suspicious of this level. I'm suspicious of it because if I'm still alive, if I still got breath in my body, God ain't finished with me. So, so, so, so my life is a lean. It's not a layback. Maybe one day it will be. Maybe one day I'll be an old man. And I've seen so much. But you know what? It's still not gonna be. Because you know what? I'm gonna be leaning into the next generation pushing them towards theirs. So that young man was one who believed that there was more. And I still feel that way.

[Lecrae]

Yeah.

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[Lecrae]

I. I think there's this misconception and, you know, we.

[Toure Roberts]

You've.

[Lecrae]

You've walked in a lot of worlds, right? So there's this misconception that success is selfish or worldly, right? And so this pursuit of success is not a. Is not a godly thing. And I get why people feel that way because they've seen successful people abuse it and take advantage of people. We've seen the charlatans on television and some people. I've been called a charlatan. I'm sure you've been called a charlatan as well.

[Toure Roberts]

Yes, sir.

[Lecrae]

But as you were talking, you were talking about some of the things that you've gotten to experience and what you were pushing for and what you were seeking. I don't think people. What I heard you just say is, and I'm suspicious.

[Toure Roberts]

I'm leaning in.

[Lecrae]

I'm interested to hear you talk about the moments where you realized the pursuit of selfish gain was in conflict with my spiritual growth.

[Toure Roberts]

Oh, man. Wow. That's what got me to surrender to God in 2000. I was prospering in every way that a man could prosper. I was prospering financially, I was prospering in my. In my entrepreneurial endeavors. I was prospering in socially, but I was withering spiritually. And I knew it. And I knew it. And I came to a moment where I felt like if I did not reconnect with the God of my youth, then everything that missed me by the grace of God was going to catch me in real time. And that was just a knowing, that was just a sensing in my spirit. Like if I didn't. If I didn't yield to God in this moment, something was going to happen. And a lot of people, you know, it doesn't matter where you find God, but a lot of people find God when they're on the bottom of the mountain, when they're deep in the valley, when they're drowning. I didn't find them when I was drowning in the ways that a lot of people are drowning. I found them when I had something to sacrifice. I had something to surrender in order to walk with God. And so that was me. I was hungry and aggressive, but I was hungry and aggressive. It was fueled by pride and, you know, and just in competition and fear, which is a whole nother thing. But when I sought the God of my youth and I found him, man, it was free. And I gotta tell you, for a minute, I actually walked away. I exited my company and I walked away from corporate America because in my mind, I didn't feel like I could be truly sold out for God and successful. And so I felt like, let's just go there. I felt like wealth and, you know, you know, any sort of economic advancement was somehow evil. And. And some of that false thinking was reinforced in some of the church environments. That. That was. They would all. First of all, that's when everybody was attacking, quote, unquote, prosperity preachers. And some earned it. I. Look, I. Some earned it. I'm not sure, you know, they. They earned that, you know, but. But everybody who had any aspiration toward building something, doing well, prospering, thriving, got lumped into this. And so I used to hide my wealth. I would park down the street, I roll up in there, and they'd be like, you know, how you doing, man? I'd be like, man, if I had your hand. You know, the stuff we say, man, you know, and. And God had to deliver me from that, you know, because it was bad thinking.

[Lecrae]

And it's a poverty contest.

[Toure Roberts]

It was a poverty contest. And although the head, the leader, didn't seem to be doing so bad. He was winning. He was. He was on top of it, you know, but. But I had to shift it. And. And God said, no, I made you a businessman. You know, I called you to do business. You're like, you're called to it, and that's Why I even started the call for people who are not called into the church world, but they're called to impact through culture in other ways.

[Lecrae]

Yeah, no, I think that's, that's, that's powerful, man. I mean, I, again, I, I know exactly where you're coming from. I, I came from those same kind of circles where it was like, it was a poverty competition and it was like, you know, the thought of amassing wealth was like, don't you never want to do that?

[Toure Roberts]

Yeah.

[Lecrae]

And it, but no one ever considered like, how, you know, these, these organizations, like the Billy Graham foundation was pouring money into all these things around the world. Like, they had to make a lot of money to pour all that money into these things going on. And so, you know, a lot of people don't think about it from that vantage point and that perspective. So I appreciate you, you sharing that.

[Toure Roberts]

Yeah. And what, and what. Who ever said that wealth was evil? See, once when I really started reading the Bible for myself, I was like, your theology is actually off. You go back and you go all the way back. I mean, we can go to the garden, you know, I mean, be fruitful and multiply. All, all of this is yours.

[Lecrae]

That's right.

[Toure Roberts]

Right. And, and, you know, I don't want to go too deep into it, but, but you see business philosophy and business strategy and in creation, you know, if God is a CEO, he creates the universes and then he creates a system. For this is not only the sustaining of that universe, but the perpetuation of it, the seed within itself. Then he sits down. That's a CEO. A CEO creates, builds systems and structures in place, not just to maintain it, but to multiply. And then they sit down because there's a system in place to keep it flowing in perpetuity, you know, so we see, we see business, or at least a business mindset. In creation, Adam and Eve had everything they wanted and things got a little tricky. To your point, Abraham, the Bible says. The Bible didn't say he was rich. The Bible says he was very rich.

[Lecrae]

Right.

[Toure Roberts]

You know, David, now this is where

[Lecrae]

they're going to call you a prosperity

[Toure Roberts]

God preacher right here. Which is. And I'll take it, I'll take it. I'm a gospel preacher, which by the way, means good news.

[Lecrae]

That's right.

[Toure Roberts]

I mean, but there's so much in the Bible, Jesus do business until I return. One of his whole parables is about business, like, and, and man, I wish I had about 2 hours, 45 minutes with. 2 hours 45. That's all I need, man. One of the parables he was talking about doing business trading. And the reward for trading was cities. So business gives you the ability to literally take territories that sometimes the church can't get into. Yeah. When I put my business hat on, I'm able to sit at tables that torre the pastor would never be able to sit at. But ture the investor, ture the entrepreneur, ture that can scale your idea. Ture that is right now staring at a crazy exit that'll change the trajectory of every Everybody around me and can talk the language of culture. You can shift culture.

[Lecrae]

That's good.

[Toure Roberts]

So anyway, I think it's so I had to get delivered. Now I'm going to be honest with you. It is hard when the scripture says that it's hard for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of heaven. That is actually true. Because even me, like, I have to pause and be regulated enough to not make spiritual decisions with my business hat. Watch this. And not make business decisions with my spiritual hat. But to know when to put what hat on, because both are an anointing. I have a business anointing and I have a church anointing. Right. And I have to know how to flow into them because they're different anointings, but same God, you know? And so it is hard. A lot of heart check. But when you have done the work inside and you know that your mission is not to just 10x your life.

[Lecrae]

Right.

[Toure Roberts]

But your mission is to advance. Advance the kingdom of God. And can we go just a little bit further?

[Lecrae]

Go ahead.

[Toure Roberts]

The Bible says. Okay, okay, okay, okay. You always hear this scripture. The wealth of the wicked is stood up for the righteous. And I'm gonna get in trouble and I'm gonna just say it. Yeah. And I love everybody and broke church people be like, yes, yes. The wealth of the wicked is stored up for the righteous. And so I'm just going to keep looking at my bank account and I'm just going to believe in Jesus name that, that, that, that there's going to be a shift. There's going to be a shift and there's going to be a wire that leaves Jeff Bezos account. That Shabbo. I feel it right now. There's going to be a wire of $75 billion that leaves, you know, Larry over at Oracle that leaves his account and comes into my hallelujah. That's what's coming. No, it's not. And you're misinterpreting that passage of scripture. See that passage of scripture about the wealth of the wicked, all that kind of stuff which they take out. It starts with, a good man leaves an inheritance with his children's children. And then the second part of that says, and the wealth of the sinner is stored up for the righteous. So the question becomes, who's the good man and who is the sinner? In the text. In the text, the sinner is the one that doesn't leave an inheritance for his children's children.

[Lecrae]

Yo.

[Toure Roberts]

That's the sinner.

[Lecrae]

Context is crazy.

[Toure Roberts]

That's the sinner. So, so, so. But that poverty mentality. Well, have you thinking that we just going to sit back and all of a sudden there's going to be a shift? No. If you don't work, if you don't build, if you don't invest, if you don't strategize, if you're not a good steward, over your resources, if you don't invest in the kingdom, it is not coming. Nobody's coming to save you. Nobody's coming to you, you mean?

[Lecrae]

I can't just blab it and grab it? I can't just name it and it's going to be mine? I can't. That's not how that works.

[Toure Roberts]

Got to do business.

[Lecrae]

I love that. The reason why I love that is because to me, the struggle I have often is that because I, you know, I'm a businessman as well.

[Toure Roberts]

Yeah.

[Lecrae]

If you leave the business world and say, no, no, no, that's secular. That's. I'm. I'm. I'm operating in my pastoral role. I'm not touching that. Well, then you just left that for Satan.

[Toure Roberts]

Ooh.

[Lecrae]

Here, Satan, you can have all of that. I don't. We're not touching it. And I'm like, why would we not want to go in and redeem the way business is done?

[Toure Roberts]

Yeah.

[Lecrae]

Redeem the way money is spent. Redeem the way people see that and that. So anyway, fear.

[Toure Roberts]

Yeah, fear. See, I'm not. See, I. I passed in Hollywood, people told me I had beautiful church. People with good intentions say, hell, you go, you know, this Sodom and Gomorrah. You know what I mean? And, you know, they. It ain't chew up preachers and spit them out, you know, And I appreciated the caution, but I'm like, why are you so fearful? Like. Like Jesus. I'm thinking about this passage in Matthew where Jesus is overwhelmed by compassion for the multitudes that are coming in his direction. And he looks out there at the crowds of people who need him, and he says, the harvest is plenteous. But the laborers are few. This is what Jesus says right in that crowd. Everything was in that crowd. If they were in need of Jesus, everything that you can imagine, every type of everything was in that crowd. And where church people would call that crowd a crowd of heathens, Jesus said harvest. Jesus looks at them and he says, the harvest is plenteous, but the laborers are few. And that's the issue and the challenge with church people. We're too afraid. We see heathens where God sees harvest, and we don't want to do the work. And to me to go, you know what I mean?

[Lecrae]

I got to get up.

[Toure Roberts]

We don't want to do the work. So. So I don't. So I went into Hollywood and people were scared of Hollywood or talking trash about Hollywood. And listen, I understand there's some dark stuff there. I'm not oblivious to that. But I saw harvest, and guess what? I found harvest there. That. That church. I saw people getting saved, filled with the Holy Spirit. I didn't have to water nothing down. I just had to be real and have language, have love and language. And I treated them like harvest, not heathens. And man, they packed that church out and we went to multiple service and we had to keep on moving and watch this. The church is still going. Yeah, I'm in Texas most of the time. It's still going because we built it recognizing. First of all, we didn't build it in fear. We felt greater was he who was in us than he was in the world. And we really feel like we can make a difference. And so sometimes it's fear, man. Church folk, not all church folk, but a lot of Christians be afraid.

[Lecrae]

You drop some bars.

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[Lecrae]

I want to switch it up a little bit and you know, before we get into the segment, I want to acknowledge that you, you did, you came in the room with some trepidation because you know, your, your, your wife, Sarah, Sarah Jakes Roberts, for all those who

[Toure Roberts]

don't know,

[Lecrae]

just had a pretty severe accident. Yeah, I mean it was traumatic for you all. I guess you know, you know the story better than I do. So I don't know if you.

[Toure Roberts]

Yeah, it was. Well, I appreciated coming into this space because it's a safe space. I know it is. And yeah, just two days ago my wife was playing with my daughter Ella jumping on the trampoline in our backyard and came down on her neck and she heard several pops and nearly blacked out and was nauseous. My 10 year old daughter Ella calls me calm, but she's like dad, I think she starts explaining and I think that something might be going on with mom. And I walk out there and my wife, who is my universe, that's my, I don't know what type of marriages people be having, but brother, that's my part. That's my girl. And she is on the ground, won't really look up and I'm like, hey, what happened? She tells me what happened to the best of her ability. But she's out of it. She can't get up. I call our doctor, our doctor tells us call 911. I'm there with just my daughter Ella. Earlier there was a house full of people because my 16 year old had a prom. But now it's just me, Ella and, and Sarah in the backyard. Her neck pops, she's nauseous. She has A splitting headache and she can't move or it will be uncomfortable for her to move. I'm trying to keep it together, man, because I don't know what's going on, but I know my wife is the strongest woman I know. And paramedics come, we go to the first hospital, they take X rays, they come back and they say, we've got some, some not so great news. Your wife's neck is fractured in three places. We all know the neck and the spine is all. It's all, it's one, one unit. And so then we called the chief of staff. We have a relation, a very high level relationship in the medical world. And he said, you need to get her down here right away. We've got the resources, I've got surgeons on call. So I drive her down to the hospital and they get in there and they run an mri. And the prognosis prior to that is very, very bleak. We're probably going to have to do emergency surgery. I'm in the middle of a book tour. I just got back from the first leg. The second leg is coming up, but I care nothing about that. It's her. We pray by the grace of God. By the grace of God. When they actually did the mri, there was indeed a fracture, but it was in a safe place. And everything else was just the herniated disc. In other places. No surgery.

[Lecrae]

Thank God.

[Toure Roberts]

The crazy part, thank God. And she's home now, recovering. She's got to wear the neck brace. But I mean, for me, I didn't have time to address the trauma that that whole scenario brought onto me. I've lost a lot of people in my life. I lost my best friend when I was 12, again when I was 18. I lost good friends in the neighborhood. I lost my cousin. I've had a lot of loss and an unexpected loss. And so all of my trauma rushing in rose at this threat, and so we got her to good. But I've been a wreck, man. I'll be honest with you. So coming here, I knew I was safe here.

[Lecrae]

Yeah.

[Toure Roberts]

You know, I knew it wasn't gonna be no gotcha or somebody trying to pull something out of me or exploit that moment. And I needed the camaraderie, I needed the brotherhood. But. But it was, it was, it was a big deal. And I'll be honest with you, man, I cried this morning. You know, she's home. You know, she can't, you know, she can't really get around. You know, I have a team of people around her right now. She Won't let me stay back. She insists that I go and. Which is crazy. And I try to push up against it, like, I'm gonna go buy the house one more time before I go to airport.

[Lecrae]

You're a strong woman.

[Toure Roberts]

You're not gonna, man, you know, she's like, no, you're on mission. This attack may have come because you're on mission. And. And you got to finish it. And so I just appreciate this environment, man. But what's crazy is my, My daughter Ella, who's 10, like, you know, she wrote the foreword of the book that I wrote. And, and she had a. Knowing her mother wasn't going to call me. And Ella didn't. I don't think that she knew all of what had happened to her mom, but she knew in her little knower that I need to call my dad because something is out of alignment, literally. And. And so she was literally the impetus of potentially saving Sarah's life because she would have just gone on, I know my wife, and there. That was too dangerous. And so, man, I'm really thankful, but I break down, man, at least twice a day.

[Lecrae]

Yeah, I appreciate you. I'm. I'm glad you're here. We going to continue to cover her in prayer.

[Toure Roberts]

Thank you.

[Lecrae]

And hopefully anybody who's hearing this is. Is led to pray as well. And, and man, much love to her as well. Just for letting you come. You know what I mean? For telling you, you better come.

[Toure Roberts]

She told me. I meant it.

[Lecrae]

Yeah, I have some, I've had some great, you know, interactions with her woman evolve and, you know, got to see one of your daughters who, you know, wanted to take a picture. I was like, you with me? Okay.

[Toure Roberts]

Hey, she loves you. We all love you.

[Lecrae]

And yeah, man, so I, I appreciate it. And you know, a lot of family's sacred, you know, family's a sacred space. And a lot of times, you know, I've kept my wife this. I just had her on my podcast for the first time ever. She doesn't come forward facing because family's a sacred space and she just knows people misconstrue stuff. And she's like, I don't know if I can handle that. Y' all didn't have the choice to keep anything in the background. Both of you are public facing and powerful individuals in the kingdom of God. How, like, you know, people look at the two of you and are like, oh, is there just some kind of like, super Christian meeting that these people find each other at? Like, how. You know what I mean? Like, do you do. You slide into Sarah Jake's dms. Is that how this works? So people, I mean. Yeah, you know, how do you meet someone like that?

[Toure Roberts]

Yeah, I think for us, we both was. So we met in 2014. February 25th. February 225. Yeah, wait, 226. February 26th, 2014. And we both were in the same space and that was. We both had gone through divorces and we both had decided that if God wasn't doing it, we weren't going to do it. So we stopped dating. Because I was, you know, I went through my divorce and I dated a little bit. And I'm like, this is a joke. Because you know, almost immediately, particularly if you're a man or a person of God, you know, when oil, when the oil is on something and when it's not right.

[Lecrae]

And you'd already, you'd already been married, so I've been married, so I know.

[Toure Roberts]

Yeah, yeah. You know, so. So we both were in that same place, you know. You know, when you first get out of a marriage, you know, first of all you're vulnerable. You really, that you really need to take time to just be to yourself, to be honest with you. But you, you ain't never been by yourself, you know, so you want company, you know what I mean? And so I think we both kind of went through that process and stage and we found ourselves both in a place where we were serious about purpose and we just didn't want no drama. So Derrick Williams, who ran all of Bishop Jake's entertainment stuff, who had a relationship, he's from LA or he lived in la. He reached out, he's like, hey man, Bishop Jake's daughter is coming to town and I, I want you to meet her. She's got a book. I want you to meet her. So I'm like, cool. So I'm like, you know, I'll take this meeting. I wasn't expecting her to look like she looked, you know, I love my father. My father in law is smooth and swag. I mean, he's my father. He's my, My dad died six months after I left, after I met Bishop Jakes. So he's my guy. You know, Sarah came and I'm like, that's not what I was. I'm expecting some church girl, like some, you know, some holier than thou, like, you know, church. She's the daughter of the bishop. Yeah, that girl comes in here with some jeans on, some thigh high boots in la. Fly, fly. And I'm like, well, this is peculiar. This is Peculiar.

[Lecrae]

Not what I was expecting.

[Toure Roberts]

Yeah. But even in the midst of that, I was shielded from being, like, attracted to her in that way. What I was attracted to or what stood out to me was her articulation of God. Now, Sarah, everyone knows Sarah Jakes Roberts. Very few people know that Sarah Jakes. She was a blogger. She wasn't preaching. She was a blogger and just wrote her first book. So even when I introduced her to one, people didn't know. They knew. Some of them knew of her father, but they didn't know her because she wasn't in that space like that. Yeah, but she was articulate. I remember, you know, we had breakfast. She was articulate. And I was like, you're special. And I thought to myself, craig, I thought, the church world is going to kill her. Because, you remember, I've been pastoring in Hollywood, and so I see how sometimes the church doesn't have grace for people who are finding their way or who don't subscribe or fit into church box. And I'm thinking to myself, you're Bishop Jake's daughter. They are going to. And she's kind of just getting started with it. They're going to kill you. And I knew how to encourage people. I'd done it in Hollywood, encourage people who had a unique anointing on their lives and to shield them. So I was like, hey, take my number, you know, like, and let's stay in touch. Because I'm thinking to myself, because you gonna need me, because they gonna kill you. You know, And. And we didn't talk. She. See, now. She tweeted. That's when Twitter was hidden. She tweeted. Just had, you know, breakfast with Jerry Roberts. Brilliant mind. I said, all right, now you don't. Don't. You know. And I always tease her about that because that was. That was her first little shot, you know. But anyway, she shot a shot on Twitter. But. But she. She was. She'll just. She'll claim that that was just, you know, just. He was being kind. But. But when we. We were at a conference together about a month later, and that's when I think God started opening my eyes to, like, okay, this. This girl's special. Yeah. The last day of the conference. Somehow, 10,000 people in this conference, we end up sitting together next to each other in the front row. And I'm like, that's interesting. And then Bishop is closing out this session, and he's like, I need you to grab the hand of the person who's standing next to you. And we're Standing. We're standing right in front of Bishop, and Sarah's next to me. So I grab her hand and this is crazy. I've never felt this before. I grabbed her hand just in prayer. First of all, a little nervous because Bishop, it seemed like he was looking right at me. Who is this uncircumcised Philistine holding my daughter? No, he didn't. Of course he said it. But, you know, I'm nervous. Yeah. I grab her hand.

[Lecrae]

Yes, you should be.

[Toure Roberts]

I grab her hand, and I am not holding the hand of a stranger. I'm like, what in the world is this? Like, our hands literally fit together. Bishop closes out the prayer. Sarah turns to me and says, I'm coming to LA in three weeks and you are taking me to dinner. That little Negro just. And if you know her, that's not her personality. Yeah, Sarah's an introvert. No one would ever know that, but she's a straight out introvert. And so she came to la and guess what?

[Lecrae]

You took her to dinner.

[Toure Roberts]

I took her to dinner. We shut the restaurant down, and the rest literally was history. And from that next morning on, and this was over 12 years ago, I have never doubted that she's the one for me. We married nine months later, and. And we've had an incredible friendship, marriage, partnership, amazing family. We. It was almost like we were separated at birth. But. But God knew, because we have a little age gap. God couldn't do it early. He had to wait until. Come on, somebody. He had to wait until we grew up a little bit to come together. But.

[Lecrae]

But, yo, that's actually a good segue because you brought up the age gap.

[Toure Roberts]

Yeah.

[Lecrae]

Okay.

[Toure Roberts]

Yep.

[Lecrae]

Now, you know, this is. Y' all have been together 12 years now, so all this kind of gets shut down at this point in time. But. Yep, Initially there was a lot of online chatter.

[Toure Roberts]

Yeah.

[Lecrae]

Like, what is his age gap? Is he just trying to get into the Jake's family and what's going on here? You know, how did. Like, how did you navigate all of the naysay and the criticism that was coming yalls way at the beginning of yalls relationship?

[Toure Roberts]

First of all, I think that most people project onto you who they are, not who you are. So that's one, two. Bishop, with all due respect, had money. Sarah did not. I'm just. She wasn't broke, you know, she. She bought her own house. She was doing well. Nor does she have torre money at the time. Sheesh. She got to ray money now, you know, but she didn't have it at the time. So. So you know, and we're, you know, 12 inch years into the relationship and. And now really our financial equals. So it's not a. And then you gotta. You have to know who I am. One church wasn't no punk church. Right? Now you can go around the world and know about one church and pt. What God did in that church inspired a lot of the churches that you see now. We were the first using technology. We were one of the first churches streaming all of this. People just took what we did and did it better. Which is wonderful because that's actually what I want you to do. That's the whole purpose. And so I think for me, and honestly I didn't see a lot of that stuff. I saw a little, but not a lot because I fly at a higher level. You know, sometimes the reason why you hear stuff is that you're flying too low, you know, and so you can't lower. I'd have to lower my plane. I'd have to bring my plane from 40,000 down to 4,000 to even be able to pick up the signal of people who don't matter. So I keep my plane high. And then also you have to have a witness within yourself. If you know who you are, then you are to a certain degree, somewhat immune from the thoughts and the opinions of others. Now you, you don't. You don't like it. You see stuff and it's unfair because you're being misrepresented and miscategorized. But you know, and then as it relates to the. You gotta remember I'm not a church dude. So my father in law is the most brilliant person I know. But I wasn't following preachers back then.

[Lecrae]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Toure Roberts]

I was following business people back then.

[Lecrae]

What I heard too is. I mean, you probably similar to me is the circles that I ran in were very critical of Bishop Jakes.

[Toure Roberts]

Exactly.

[Lecrae]

And so it was kind of like, I don't know how I even feel, you know?

[Toure Roberts]

No, it was the same way. And. And so it's kind of like. So again it comes down to. I remember. So one of my best friends in the whole world is Devon Franklin. Yeah, Devon is. He's quality. I. I love him with all my heart. I remember I was when I was going to meet Bishop concerning Sarah, and that's a whole. I wish we had five hours. That was a very, very beautiful but scary conversation.

[Lecrae]

Oh, no.

[Toure Roberts]

We going there after this?

[Lecrae]

All right, we'll get there, but we want to talk about everything else.

[Toure Roberts]

It's a Good segue. So. So I'm telling Devon, like, I'm going to meet, meet, meet the Bishop. He's like, well, just be yourself. You know, you're. You're not here. This is not a come up. You know what I mean? Like, this is, you know, first of all, you're already up. How do you. How is it to come up if you're already up? You know, so just, just be truthful with him. Yeah. You know, and so that's how it was. So I met with the Bishop and actually wasn't. I wasn't nervous in that meeting, okay. I didn't know what to expect.

[Lecrae]

Now this is like yalls first, like he's filling you out type of meeting.

[Toure Roberts]

So I'm gonna give you. I'm gonna get. There are two meetings, okay? The first meeting he's in LA at a book signing for his book. I think it was instincts and, and we had been trying to connect because by now I've been dating Sarah for three or four months. And, and I wanted to honor him by, you know, saying, hey, I'm. I'm the guy that your daughter loves. So, so I'm, I. So I go to this, this book signing. I'm at the end of the line, right? And I get up to him and I was like, hey, Bishop. Yeah, I'm ture. And he was like, oh. He said, you know, you got my daughter's heart in your hands, right? And the man looked at me. It was a sinister, sinister giggle. And he looks at me and I can read in his eyes, you know, you got my daughter's heart in your hands. He looked like a wild man. And I actually still had that picture of me and him taking the picture at that photo shoot. And even in his eyes you can just see like, I kill him. I'm hugging him. I'm taking this picture, but I'll kill him. And so that was the first meeting. And then the second meeting is when we actually sat down and had a talk. I gotta just set this up for you real quick, okay?

[Lecrae]

Okay.

[Toure Roberts]

So Sarah and I walk into the house. Now this is a few months after that moment. He sees her. She's. They don't live together. Sarah lives in another place in Dallas. We both walk in the house. He sees her. Hey. And grabs her picture. You ever see Meet the Parents?

[Lecrae]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Toure Roberts]

There's a scene in Robert De Niro. Robert De Niro. There's a scene when he. He sees his daughter. The fiance is coming in. He hugs the daughter. Ben Stiller is just standing in the cold, looking around. This was me. He holds her. He embraces her. About 45 seconds a minute. I'm just standing there like. And then once that happens, he's like. He looks at me. He says, follow me.

[Lecrae]

Oh, no, Bishop. Jake's looking at you. Said, follow me.

[Toure Roberts]

Follow me. And so he walks me through his house, and there's a little private indoor lanai area. And he sits down, and I sit down. He tells me where to sit. He sits down. He gets comfortable in his chair. He looks at me and he says, so tell me what's going on. I said, well, this is who I am. This is what happened. And it was all honest. You know, I figured if I were him, I would want to know who this guy is. Didn't realize that he did his extensive background on me. I didn't know that, but I would do the same if I were him.

[Lecrae]

Oh, and TD Jakes do a background check?

[Toure Roberts]

But he didn't. Yeah, he. But he didn't say. He didn't say anything. He just let me talk. He didn't interrupt. I talked for about five minutes straight. Seven, eight minutes. This is who I am. This is where I come from. This is how we met. This is what I felt. These are my intentions. Da da da da da da da da da da. He's listening. He doesn't say anything. He doesn't flinch. He's just locked in, watching me. And what I've learned about my father is he is one of the most accurate judges of character and spirit that you will ever want to meet. So he was listening to my words, but what he was really listening to more so was my heart, you know? So he let me finish, and then he said, well, you know, I've. I've asked around about you. He said, I've done my due diligence. And he said, and I must say, everybody has nothing but good things to say about you. And I said, well, that's nice to know. He said, now, this was the one. This was the. This was the kicker. He says, I know what's right with you. Tell me what's wrong with you. Oh, that was money. Oh, my God. That was the. But, see, that's the wisdom of dad. That's like. That's his wisdom.

[Lecrae]

I'm using that.

[Toure Roberts]

Oh. Oh, I've already used it on my. My daughter's boyfriends and stuff like that. And so I told him and I told him what it was. And for me, it was like, just, you know, sometimes I'm just Too caring and too loving. Oh yeah. Yeah. Like a job interview, you know, And I thought about it because I'm like, I'm not gonna lie. Cause he gonna know. Yeah. You know, and I told him what it was and it wasn't anything nefarious or anything like that. It was a real area where I wanted to improve in. And. And he. And we forged a relationship that day we left. We all went together. I went out together for dinner and. And I've been his son ever since.

[Lecrae]

Wow.

[Toure Roberts]

Yeah.

[Lecrae]

That's crazy.

[Toure Roberts]

Yeah.

[Lecrae]

Are you, are you at all? Because I mean you've been married to Sarah for years now. Y' all have, you know, led together, y' all have worked together and now she's a force in her own right.

[Toure Roberts]

Yeah.

[Lecrae]

Is there tension with that? Has that ever become an area where it's like woo. Hold on now. Wait a minute.

[Toure Roberts]

Yeah, that's a great question. Because when Sarah came into my world, she was my wife. Like literally in the industry. She was about in LA. She was PT's wife that they were getting to know. Now as our worlds have gotten bigger, I am her husband in many of those spaces. Right. Which, which was a shift. Never any tension about that. Because my makeup is to make people great.

[Lecrae]

Yeah.

[Toure Roberts]

That literally is who I am. Like I've never, even when I had pastors that were coming up under me, my vision was always to work myself out of a job. Yeah. So that's why it was easy for me to transition to church. I've just never had that. Sarah tells me I used to think it was. I used to wonder if it were. I didn't know how to take it. She would say, you have extremely high self esteem. And at first I was like, you know what you mean by that? Like, you know, and she was like, no, no, no, no. I admire it. You know. And then I thought about it. Yeah. Because what's the alternative to high self esteem, low self esteem. And, and God gave that to me. So I don't, I'm not intimidated by anyone else's greatness at all. If anything, I'm. I'm inspired by it. So there's never tension there. Okay. Where there may, where we may have been. Because I want to be very honest, like where we may have experienced tension, it would never be around that. It would be around. So like a lot of the business stuff behind some of the forward facing things, I have a lot of influence on the business side of what we both do publicly. And I think there. And she creative. She's just forget it like what I am not, she is. And what she's not, I am. And sometimes not. This is not tension, but sometimes not over being overbearing, even on that side of things, like letting some things be.

[Lecrae]

And because as men, we're.

[Toure Roberts]

We.

[Lecrae]

We want to see it come to. We want to like, take it to the next level.

[Toure Roberts]

Yes.

[Lecrae]

And sometimes it's like, hey, just.

[Toure Roberts]

And we can see it. And as a business person, I could see the trouble down the road, whereas she might want to. And I understand it. She wants to keep the cost where they need to be because she wants everyone to feel welcome and for it to be within reach. And I understand that. But I know how to accomplish that. And then also because there's. Anyway, I don't want to get to the details of it.

[Lecrae]

I get it.

[Toure Roberts]

But so I want her to always feel true to what she needs. But then also I'm looking down the road and I'm saying, yeah, but that may not be sustainable. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, and so how do I interject business strategy that conflicts with her desire to keep things at a certain level. And I have to let, I have to just let that go.

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[Lecrae]

Yeah, my wife is really great. She's a nurturer. She's better at nurturing relationships and people than I am. And I'm a conqueror or a catalyzer. And I want to like, push things. And so I'll be thinking, she'll be like, yeah, I want to get the people over and we'll just hang and have a good time. And I'm like, yo, what we could do is we could put that on Zoom. And then she's like, no, no, no, no, no. And I'm like, but you don't understand. You spending all this time doing this.

[Toure Roberts]

We could.

[Lecrae]

And it's like, hey, just, can we chill?

[Toure Roberts]

Yes.

[Lecrae]

So I get it. Yeah, I get it. You know, I'm good friends with Jerry and Priscilla Shire too. So I see what goes on behind the scenes. And it's like, I don't have a public, a forward facing wife, so I don't. That's not my struggle. I don't have to worry about it. But if it was my situation, well, we would probably be at it. Cause I'd be like, nah, we could

[Toure Roberts]

see what we could do.

[Lecrae]

We could 10x this thing, baby.

[Toure Roberts]

I know. I really, I just. We have learned to really respect what the other brings to the table. Like, we really, we have found a great dynamic. You might get over on me, you won't get over on me and her. You might get over on her, you won't get over on both of us.

[Lecrae]

That's power. Yeah, that's powerful.

[Toure Roberts]

It really is.

[Lecrae]

Before we get into the book, I want to. I'm also curious because, you know, Bishop Jakes had a health scare last year. And I'm not saying that that's leading into his new decision making process, but just in general, there has to be a passing of the torch in some regards. And so him entrusting you with being a senior pastor of one of the most prominent churches in America, do you walk into that? Like, how do you walk into that? What do you process?

[Toure Roberts]

Yeah, the weight of the responsibility. To be honest with you. Like, I, I didn't build the Potter's house, but I did build something. And I, I know what it's like to put your blood, sweat, tears, your life into something and the cost of it and the value of it. And so when we were called to walk into that, I think the biggest weight that I felt was the weight of responsibility. This cannot go down. And it took a while. So what most people don't know is that we were in the transition process far longer than people knew. By the time people were beginning to suspect, oh, they might be the successes, we were already in a succession plan. It just wasn't fully public yet. Because Bishop is very strategic and rightfully so. And that's the reason why he's had so much success. One of the reasons. So it took time, to be honest with you, for my insides, my ancestors insides to be developed enough to carry that weight. You know, I remember when we let the staff in on it and I began to work with the staff and I'm thinking, man, this staff is incredible. Like, you know, because they're Bishop staff. So I'm walking in there and I'm like, I gotta grow up in my leadership because in order to lead staff on this level, you know, and I felt like I was a decent leader. I felt like I was a good leader, but I had to level up. So the staff trained me like, they don't know this, but I'm watching them and I'm watching how he moves with them and I'm like, oh, I have to. So we had to grow into it. But what was equally important for me was to not become Bishop Jakes. First of all, to not try to become Bishop Jakes. It was very important from the spirit of the Lord to not lose Torre in the process of taking over the Potter's house. So my wife and I, Sarah, we made, we made a lot of covenants. One, we're not going to lose ourselves. Two, we're not going to lose our marriage. And three, we're not going to lose our family. If we have to sell everything we have and all of us live in a one bedroom apartment, but preserve our marriage, preserve our unique identities and preserve our families, so be it. So we walked into it knowing that the pressure would be there, but already having a strategy for that pressure.

[Lecrae]

That's brilliant, man. I am excited to see the future. I'm excited to see what God does in and through you in that capacity, man. Just even sitting here, I'm only getting a, a snapshot, a drip of the, the, the oil, you know what I mean? And I'm like, oh, some oil over there. But, but let's Talk about this book before. Like you kind of mentioned it earlier. You did mention it earlier. There's a incredible, incredible quote in the foreword that says, if you doubt it, it won't work. Yeah, that your daughter, you know, like, I mean, she's being used before anything happens. So you got heard. What's the thought process in having her a part of this book specifically?

[Toure Roberts]

It was not my idea.

[Lecrae]

Okay.

[Toure Roberts]

My daughter came to me and said, dad, I think I'm supposed to write the foreword. My nine year old daughter, this is not her personality. Ella is an introvert. She really, really is. And so my history with Ella is she's always been very accidentally spiritually sensitive, like never trying to be. But she would just like say stuff sometimes that were like, wait, how did you know that? Like, what? So, I mean, Sarah would look at her and say, there's something on her life. Like she, she doesn't really know it, but there's something happening. So. So that's how I view her. So when she came to me and said, dad, I think I'm supposed to write the four. No, I don't even think it was. I think it was dad. Yeah, no, I want to write the four words. What she said, that's crazy. And I looked at her and I looked in her eyes because I wanted to see what spirit, you know, that was saying that. And I looked at her, I was like, oh my God, she's, she's serious. And so I said, okay, okay. And there was something about me that agreed. I didn't have to pray about it. I knew and I knew that she knew. Now selling it to my publisher was a completely different story. And even my. I have an incredible agent. Even my agent was like, terry, I don't know if that's a good idea. But I had a knowing about it, right? And so I said, no, she's, she's gonna write it and. Because, you know, I can have anybody write the forward, but, but so, so I interview her. I said, we were in Greece and I interview her. I'm like, all right, we got to get this forward written. I want to interview. Because that's going to be my process. I'm going to interview you and then we'll take what you said, you know, and we'll write it, right, Man. I started asking her questions and she was just, she was in another place. And. But then it made sense. Knowing we lose. As we age, we lose trusting in our knowing. You know, life starts shaping us. You know, things start, start happening to us. And, and, and there's a childlikeness that is very connected to spiritual insight and instinct that gets lost when we face things. And so then I started thinking about. Even Jesus said, except you are converted and become like a child. You can't see. You can't see and enter the kingdom. And I'm like, so it made sense. And so as I begin to. To. To, you know, I have a whole chapter that. That describes knowing not as your sixth sense, but as your first sense that gets that, you know. You know, there's theology about the garden and the enemy comes as a. Did God really say. He attacks their knowing. They were flowing in their knowing. But on top of that, as you keep living life, the instincts that you used to have, they get buried under trauma and disappointment and letdown and all this kind of stuff, and you lose it, but it's still there. And so the book is about helping you to do three things. To trace that inner faculty that God has given to us all. Biblical trust. Train it. Got to train it. And then trust it. Trace it, find it, train it, and then trust it. Because you got to think about this. If God was wise enough to give you ears to hear, eyes to see, a tongue to taste, a nose to smell.

[Lecrae]

Yeah.

[Toure Roberts]

Why would he not give you the ability to perceive Him? And not through, you know, man? I can go on all day. The scripture, 1 Corinthians 2, 9. Eyes have not seen, ears have not heard. Nor has it entered into the heart of man. Those things that God has prepared for those who love him. Right. We look at that and we shout at the wrong moment. We shout there because we think he's talking about heaven. Hallelujah. Eyes haven't seen. It's going to be something greater than my eyes ever seen, my ears ever heard. That's not even the context. He says, eyes have not seen, ears not hurt. Nor is it into the heart of man. The things that God has prepared for those who love him. Verse 10. But he has revealed them to us through his Spirit. So that passage is basically saying access to what God has for you cannot be seen by eye, cannot be perceived by ear, and you can't even muster it up in your heart. The Spirit reveals to you, and it says, the Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. Then it says that God freely gives those things to us by the Spirit in our knower. And there's. So it's fully biblical, fully theological, and. But we have to trace it. Yeah, I tell you how to trace it. We have to train it. You got to train it, you know, because it's literally, there's a word. Last thing I'm going to say about it. There's a word in Hebrews, and I believe it's in chapter five. But it talks about how our senses have to be exercised by use. And it's a powerful passage to discern both good and evil. That word, senses is a Greek word that is only in the Bible one time. And the literal translation of that Greek word that was translated senses is organ of perception. Organ of perception. So God has given to us an organ of perception that. That verse says you have to exercise it. Wow. Got to train it, right? Trace it, train it, trust it, and it will be your compass and lead you into the unfolding of everything that God has for you.

[Lecrae]

See, I already. I'm out. You answered my question. Because I was like, how do we trace it? You like, yeah, you got to read the book to learn how to trace it. So now I got to. I got to dig deep.

[Toure Roberts]

But I answered a little bit that. Because what if some. I hope they get the book. They should get the book. I think. I don't write books that I don't think people should experience. Especially in the cloudy, crazy time that we're in. So much uncertainty. We got it. We can't move through this blindly. We have to be more accurate and more clear than we ever have before. And the instructions are in the book. But let's talk about it just for a minute. If we have a few minutes, you know, I feel like it's there. The reason why we can't experience it oftentimes or hear it loud enough to even locate it, to train it, is because of the noise that's around us. And listen, we live in an attention economy. Like before you and I get up out of the bed. There is literally a strategy to determine our next move. So before I woke up, Craig, before you woke up, big tech and little tech has already strategized on how they're going to push whatever buttons they need to push in you to get you to respond the way that you. The way that they want you to respond. Which means that if you don't have a strategy for stillness, if you don't have a strategy for clarity, you're already cloudy. And so stillness. Stillness is resistance against that system. It is saying, I'm not going to pick up my phone the first thing in the morning. I'm going to get still. I'm a trust, and I'm going to allow knowing to rise in me. It's hard, but this is our new normal. This is the antidote for the noise that's coming to direct us in someone else's vision.

[Lecrae]

And you know what's funny is you saying that is I don't think people expect that from you. I will say me, I'm people, because I see someone who is this successful entrepreneur, author, I mean, who didn't really have to write a book, but with all the things he's got going on, taking over one of the biggest churches in the nation, I don't imagine your advice is be still. Because I'm just like this man.

[Commercial Announcer]

It has to be moving, moving, moving.

[Lecrae]

But I'm like, of course.

[Toure Roberts]

Right? Of course. I can only move because I'm still. I can only move because I'm still. I don't even trust running unless I'm still. I don't even trust. I am afraid of running hard in the wrong direction.

[Lecrae]

That's so good.

[Toure Roberts]

So I trust my path because I practice stillness that allows me to trace, train, and trust.

[Lecrae]

I don't know what else you can do at this point in time. Only thing you can do is continue to empower people as you've been doing. You're doing an amazing work. I appreciate you. I'm grateful for your voice. I'm grateful for this opportunity just to get to allow people to know more. You know, many people are familiar, but then those people who may have been like, well, I didn't. I don't. I didn't know. You know, I think that's a. It's a benefit to everybody, and also very, very grateful for the Knowing, the journey to certainty in an uncertain world. It's crazy out here, y'.

[Toure Roberts]

All.

[Lecrae]

Trust me. I am excited about it. I'm excited just, you know, to dive in more, because, as you said, you know, there's so much that went into the process of you being who you are today. And so I'm grateful that you gave us an inside view of all of that.

[Toure Roberts]

Thank you, Lecrae. I'm equally grateful for you because, you know, in my humanity, I am. There is a lot to me, and I feel like there's a lot to give. And sometimes I'm hidden by people's perspectives about me, by them being enamored by the shiny things around me that concern me. And you do want to be known, and that's in my humanity. Whether it's godly or not, I don't know. But I do believe that I've got something to give, and that's why I continue to create, whether it's called Leaders. Whether it's writing books, whether it's doing the master classes, preaching and that, wherever I'm trying to get what God put in me out of me, I'm trying to market the gift of God that's on my life to the effect that other people's lives will be changed.

[Lecrae]

It's happening.

[Toure Roberts]

It's working.

[Lecrae]

Like, literally. So we are grateful for you. Our prayers will be with your family and with Sarah. And thank you again, man. It means the world.

[Toure Roberts]

Likewise. Yeah, it's a blessing. Yeah. Booking a verbo vacation rental means you get verbo Care and 247 Life Support. Verified reviews from real guests and top rated homes with the Love by guest filter.

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[Toure Roberts]

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