← The Deep End With Lecrae
Loading summary
Transcript38 lines
- [00:00]
Lecrae
When you need to send the perfect rose bouquet, only one brand can say they've been the floral authority for 50 years. 1-800-Flowers. Why should you trust 1-800-Flowers? They hand select every stem to ensure top quality and with nationwide delivery, smiles and satisfaction are 100% guaranteed. And right now, when you order a dozen multicolored roses, we'll double it at no extra cost. Don't miss out on this limited time offer. Order today at 1-800-FLowers.com podcast. That's 1-800-FLowers.COM podcast. Some days you just want to amplify your everyday look. Like when you want the look of false lashes without the extra effort. Reach for Thrive Cosmetics Liquid Lash Volumizer Mascara. Or when you want all eyes on your smile. Keep Empower Gloss Ultra Glossy Lip Serum in your bag. It's a burst of 24 hour hydration that smooths like a serum, shines like a gloss, and can be worn sheer or layered. You'll always look and feel your best with Thrive Cosmetics. Plus, every product is 100% vegan, cruelty free, and made with clean skin loving ingredients that work with your skin, not against. Amplify your everyday. Go to thrivecosmetics.com shine26 for an exclusive offer of 20% off your first order. That's thrive Cosmetics. C A U S E M E t I c s.com shine26 all right,
- [01:17]
Host/Commentator
so let me be honest with y'. All. When I heard about the conflict in Iran, I didn't know what the heck was going on. And I don't think most people do. They think he might be dead. There's a bunch of idios. Israel is released clearly. AI the Bible says that this attack will come on Israel from the north and the south, and then that will be the final war to end all wars that will usher in the end of time.
- [01:40]
Expert/Guest (possibly a theologian or analyst)
When these things line up, the end of the world will happen. And if it's not happening fast enough, then it's on me to make it happen. At the surface, that's evil.
- [01:50]
Lecrae
US Military commanders have reportedly been invoking extremist Christian rhetoric about biblical end times, selling the conflicts as a holy war.
- [01:59]
Host/Commentator
It's the epitome of the Crusades. And how did that fare? Scroll through social media right now and you're gonna find Christians quoting script to support the war. You're gonna find Christians quoting scripture to oppose the war. But here's where it gets a little tricky for me. This is the deep end with Lecrae. All right, so let me be honest with y' all When I heard about the conflict in Iran, I didn't know what the heck was going on. And I don't think most people do. Like, depending on who you listen to, you're probably getting completely different stories. There's sides saying this war is, is very necessary, it's about stopping a real threat. And there's another side that's saying this is reckless and it did not have to happen. And if you're just a regular person trying to make sense of it all, you're probably like, wait, what? What is actually true? I think there's a lot that's being hidden from us. Now. Here's what we do know. The whole thing escalated at the end of February. The US and Israel launched major strikes inside Iran. Iran responded with missiles and drones across the region. And, and now it's not just Iran and Israel and the us. It's affecting the entire Middle East. I mean, we're talking oil, shipping, global markets, all of it. Now, at one point in time, Iran basically held on to the world's most important oil route in the world. It's almost impassable. So this, this isn't just a war or something happening over there. This hits gas prices, this hits economy, this hits global stability. I mean, it hits everything. But here's where it gets a little tricky for me. The why behind all of this? Depends on who you ask. Because some people are saying Iran was becoming too dangerous, it's a nuclear threat, there's military expansion, and all this has to be stopped. And other people are saying this is an immediate threat. This could create something way bigger than we're trying to prevent. And let me tell you guys something, if I'm honest, I don't know how the average person is supposed to soar through all that. And this is where I start asking deeper questions. Because anytime something is this big, this fast, this costly, there's usually more layers than what we're hearing on the surface. I mean, what really pushed this tension in a full on war? Were there other options that were more diplomatic that didn't even get explored? Who benefits from this escalating and who actually pays the price? There's a lot that the media's not telling us. There's a lot that we don't know. And I've had to do some digging, I've had to ask questions, I've had to do some research to get perspectives from all over the place. Now let me give you a couple facts. In just the first week, the US spent $11 billion on this war. And that's not a small decision. That's a massive one. And while this is all happening at a global level, there's real people on the ground. Families, kids, communities. Literally over a thousand people have already died across Iran, Israel, and all the neighboring regions. So this isn't just strategy. This is human lives. I'm not coming to you as some sort of expert on geopolitics. I'm coming to somebody who's trying to be thoughtful, trying to be honest, and not just swept up in whatever narrative is the loudest. Because as believers, as people trying to walk with wisdom, we can't just react. We gotta wrestle. So what I want to do in this episode is not tell you what to think, but walk you through the different ways that Christians are actually approaching this war. The tensions between justice, peace and power, and how we can think about this without losing our souls in the process. Whenever we start talking about war, especially something like Iran, people immediately split into different sides. Some people are like, we gotta protect ourselves. If that means war, so be it. And others are like, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah. As Christians, we should never support violence, ever. And then there's a whole group of people in the middle who are just confused, like me. We're like, we love Jesus and we live in America, but I don't know what the heck I'm supposed to think about this. So instead of telling you what to think, I want to give you some framework so you can actually understand why you may feel the way you feel and then take that and submit it to Jesus. So here's the issue. Most Christians don't actually have a theology of war, right? We got reactions, we got political opinions, we got cultural instincts, but we have not slowed ourselves down to ask, what does it actually mean to follow Jesus in a world full of violence? Because, I mean, let's be honest, you can scroll through social media right now, and you're gonna find Christians quoting scripture to support the war. You're gonna find Christians quoting scripture to oppose the war. And everybody is convinced that God sees things the way they do. I think that should bother us because God is not a mascot for our opinions, so we should be submitting our thoughts to him. Historically, Christians have always wrestled with this. And what I found is that there are four lenses that people generally see this through. Okay, I'm going to interrupt you for a second because I need to put you on to something now. If you notice how we know the story of Jesus, we don't always feel it. You know what I mean? Experience it like you heard it so many times that it starts to lose some weight. Well, I came across something that kind of pulled me back in a fresh way, is called the Christ. And this isn't your typical Bible podcast. The Christ podcast is a cinematic four part audio drama that tells the story of Jesus from his birth to his resurrection with like real storytelling, real emotion and film level sound design. The cast is crazy. Tom Pelfrey plays Jesus. David Oyewolo plays Pontius Pilate. Then you got Paul Walter Houser and Courtney Hope up in that mix too. Narrated by John Rhys Davies. And if you've seen Lord of the Rings or Indiana Jones, you know that voice. And it's hosted by Patricia Heaton. So the whole story unfolds across like four episodes during Holy Week leading up to Easter. And go ahead and open your podcast app. All right, I want you to search the Christ and then follow it now, because when it drops, you will be ready. And it's a powerful way to experience the greatest story ever told in a way that might actually hit you different this time. Now I have to take a pause because the irony is I would not have been able to navigate this episode if I had not gotten a good night's sleep before this. And in this episode you can obviously tell the difference. The reason why I'm sleeping good in this particular situation is because I changed my mattress. The mattress company that I went with was Brooklyn Bedding Sleep is not a one size fits all thing. So that's why they offer their mattresses for everybody, every sleep style, even the hard to find sizes. So no matter which mattress is right for you, all you gotta do is take the Brooklyn Bedding Sleep quiz, find out your perfect match. Takes less than two minutes. Brooklyn Bedding is gonna offer 120 night comfort trial sleep on this for 120 nights. Love it. Or they'll help you return or swap it hassle free. All right, so go to BrooklynBetting.com, use my promo code LECRAE at checkout and get their 30% off site wide offer. This offer is not available anywhere else. All right. BrooklynBetting.com promo code LECRAE. You get 30% off site wide. And listen, support our show. Let them know we sent you, all right? Please. BrooklynBetting.com promo code LECRAE. Now, the first lens is what we call pacifism. And this is the belief that if you follow Jesus, you reject violence completely. You are a pacifist. Let me tell you what Jesus says in the scriptures. Jesus says, turn the other cheek. He says, love your Enemies. And then there's a moment where Peter's pulling out a sword to defend Jesus, and Jesus tells him, hey, man, put your sword back. Because those who live by the sword die by the sword. So think about that. Like, Jesus is being unjustly arrested. He still refuses violence. And when he's on the cross, he doesn't call down angels. He absorbs all that violence, right? So the idea there is that if Jesus laid his life down, how can we take someone else's? I respect it. I do. I respect it because it takes this view, takes Jesus word seriously. But here's my tension. What do you do when the evil is real? I mean, what do you do when innocent people are literally being harmed? How do you defend them? And that's the tension. The second perspective people have is a just war perspective. Like, this war is justified, right? This is where I feel like most Christians land, even if they don't even know the name. Because the idea is this, like, war is tragic, but it's sometimes necessary. And you see hints of this in Scripture, too. Like in Romans 13, it talks about governing authorities bearing the sword to restrain evil. Or you think about the soldiers who came to John the Baptist. And John doesn't tell them to quit being soldiers, right? He tells them to act justly. And even Jesus, when he encounters that Roman centurion, he doesn't rebuke him for being in the military. He's not like, hey, bro, by the way, drop out the military. It's ungodly. What he does is he actually praises his faith. So the idea becomes, if force is used, it's got to be restrained, it's got to be just, and it's got to be necessary. But here's the problem for me with that. Every nation thinks their war is justified. Like, there's nobody thinking we're the bad guys. We probably shouldn't do this, but we are, right? So now it takes deep discernment and not blind trust to think through. Is this actually justified? And then third, this is real popular right now. The third perspective is Christian nationalism. And this is where faith and country get blended together. It's where people start thinking, if we're doing it, it must be right because God is on our side. But Scripture actually gives us a lot of warnings about this, right? I want you to think about Jonah, right? You familiar with Jonah? He gets on the boat and goes to Nineveh. So God tells Jonah to go to Nineveh, which is an enemy nation, and he tells Jonah to call them to repentance. And because Jonah is a nationalist, he doesn't want to go. And the reason why is because he. He doesn't want his enemy nation to be shown the mercy of God. He would rather see them judged than redeemed. Because Israel's the good guys, right? And every other nation is the bad guys. I mean, that's the perspective that Jonah has. And he doesn't want to see the bad guys actually get redeemed. He wants to see him judged. This is nationalism, and that's drawing the hard line between the US and the them and forgetting that God cares about both. And God confronts Jonah, he basically says, hey, you care about your comfort, but I care about an entire city full of people. I want you to think about that. Like, think about when Israel demanded a king in First Samuel. They wanted to be like all the other nations. They wanted power, they wanted identity, they wanted security. And God warned them, all right, this is going to lead to oppression. But what did they do? They still chose it. So when we stop questioning our nation and we just start assuming it's righteous, now we're stepping into dangerous territory because America is not the kingdom of God, right? The kingdom of God is not a nation state. Jesus said, my kingdom is not of this world. So if our loyalty to a country becomes unquestioned, then we're not thinking like disciples. We're not thinking like followers of God. And fourth and last is the perspective of peacemaking. Now, this is a completely different posture because the goal is not just trying to avoid war or justify war. It's actively pursuing peace. Jesus in Matthew 5 says, Blessed are the peacemakers, not the peacekeepers. The peacemakers. Think about that. Those who are trying to. To make peace. And then you got Jesus in Samaria, right? The Jews and the Samaritans were in a war. They had this deep hostility. But then Jesus crosses that line and he goes and engages the woman at the well. And then you got Paul, who talks about a ministry of reconciliation, that. That God is making peace through Christ and calling us to carry that message. I mean, you got Abraham, who allows lot to choose the land first in order to avoid conflict. So this posture that says we're gonna fight for peace before we ever pick up a fight, that's a posture of peacemaking. And it's uncomfortable because it doesn't give you easy answers. But what it does do is it forces you to wrestle. So bring all this into something real, like this current conflict with Iran. And instead of asking, should we go to war or shouldn't we? I think a Better question to ask is, what lens am I using right now? How am I seeing this? Because if you're a pacifist, you're saying no violence at all. It's wrong. If you're thinking in a justifiable, just war terms, you're asking, is this truly necessary, or are we just getting pulled into something we don't need to be getting pulled into? If you're leaning nationalistic, probably don't even have any questions. And if you're thinking as a peacemaker, you're asking, is there another way before we escalate this? But here's what we cannot forget. The Iranian people are made in the image of God. They are mothers, they are fathers, they are children, just like you. And if our perspective on God in the Bible, if our theology allows us to ignore that, something's off. All right, so what I will tell you is this. I want to look at some of the responses and the things that are being said out there. We can kind of filter what perspective these people may have and what we can take away from from their perspectives. Now, I'm be clear again, I am not a geopolitical expert, but I have realized in my time of learning and researching that there is a lot that we're not being told. There's a lot being said about this war, but there are things they just aren't telling you. Let's take a look at some stuff. What did you ask me, Prime Minister? People are saying online that you're actually dead. I'm crazy about coffee. You know what? I'm crazy about my people, the way they're behaving. Fantastic. Do you want to count the number of fingers? Can you show us? You were very nice. Cheers. The Prime Minister's message to people who are going out to get some air. Go out to get some air, but stay near a protected space. And your resilience is amazing. It gives strength to me, to the government, to the idf, to the Mossad. We are doing things. I can't share at the moment, but we are doing things striking Iran very hard, even today, and in Lebanon as well. Continuing. I'm telling all of you, you keep going too. Keep following the instructions of the home front command. Always follow the home front command's instructions and also those of the mayors. Always stay near a protected space. We will ease things as much as possible. And thank you for the coffee. So Benjamin Netanyahu, the Prime Minister of Israel, is dead. Maybe depending on who you believe. So here's the situation. Earlier this month, Netanyahu reportedly had A high level security meeting with his defense minister, the IDF chief of staff and the head of the Mossad. And the meeting location was bombed. So reports from Iran claim that Netanyahu was killed. And since then, Netanyahu's reportedly missed eight consecutive cabinet security meetings. He had never missed one of those meetings ever before. So all these rumors started picking up steam and the official account, the X account for Netanyahu, started releasing videos that were showing him to be alive. So the result is been people scrutinizing and screenshotting these videos, claiming that they are AI videos. And the responses are just tons of screenshots that supposedly prove that the videos are AI generated. And the truth after watching the videos is I have no idea what to believe, right? Even Grok, you know, the AI built in the X can't even tell. Like sometimes Grok is saying the video's AI, other times Grok is saying that it's real. What I do know about all this is that we are definitely in an era of uncertainty and deception and we just genuinely cannot tell what is real and what is fake online. So my question is, are we spiritually equipped to navigate a world where we genuinely cannot tell what's real? Because if we can't verify what's real online, and we increasingly can't, you know what I mean, what do we do to anchor ourselves? And I love what Hebrews 6:19 calls hope, an anchor for the soul, right? If hope is an anchor for the soul, it's not the right news source, it's not the right political team winning, it's Christ, right? You can engage these questions with curiosity now if you believe in hope instead of anxiety. So I don't know if that video is real and I'm not going to fall apart. My citizenship is not determined by what happens in Tel Aviv, Israel. My identity is not threatened by what happens in Tehran. I am hidden in Christ. I'm hidden with Christ, in God. And listen, that's, that's not a video that can be faked. You know what I mean? My Life in Jesus, you can't fake that, right? And so that's how I look at the whole thing. So a lot of us, when we go to war, we tend to start pulling out our end times theology, right? We get out our left behind books, we start quoting that there will be wars and rumors of wars, which, you know, I can understand and I've been that person. But I also wanna submit a different perspective as well. Just because war is happening and we're involved does not signal like the end times, because there's wars that have happened all over the place, conflicts that have happened all over the place. But I don't, we don't start preaching, oh, God is coming back when, like, I don't know, North Korea and South Korea have a conflict or when, you know, Ukraine and Russia. I didn't hear a lot of Americans saying, this is the end of the world. It's generally when your life is in peril or your country's in the midst of it, you think it's the end. And I just would challenge that. I would challenge us to say, hey, this is a global thing, a global perspective, not just a national perspective. And this isn't about whether or not you are a Trump supporter or you're not a Trump supporter. I just would say I hope that we treat all angles and all sides with the same amount of perspective and respect. So let's look at some perspectives that are currently out here right now. The Secretary of War is apparently connected to Christian nationalism, allegedly, I guess. A new church has quietly opened here in Washington, just three blocks from the nation's capital. The Defense Secretary, Pete Hexseth, attended the service. The church is part of the communion of reformed evangelical churches, and its aim is global Christian domination under a strict interpretation of the Bible. I'd like to see the town be a Christian town. I'd like to see the state be a Christian state. I'd like to see the nation be a Christian nation. I'd like to see the world be a Christian world.
- [23:00]
Lecrae
And now Wilson's controversial views as a Christian nationalist are gaining sway in the nation's center of power with the recent opening of his new church and high profile parishioners like Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth. Wilson is part of a broader Christian nationalist movement making inroads with the Trump administration, with a newly created faith office led by evangelical pastor Paula White Cain and people seen right outside the White House entrance praying and speaking in tongues. We are standing on the soil of the White House and we are declaring your word.
- [23:32]
Host/Commentator
CNN, by the way, reached out to the U.S. defense Department to inquire about Secretary Hegseth's relationship with Doug Wilson. A spokesperson said Hegseth is, quote, a proud member of the network of churches founded by Wilson and that the secretary, quote, very much appreciates many of Mr. Wilson's writings and teachings, end quote. There's a lot there. The idea of wanting a Christian nation, I think, man, we have to process what that means when we say that, like, I want a global Christianity. Like, what are we saying. When we say that. Because I think oftentimes what we don't take into consideration is that when people say they want Christian nation, a Christian world, is that they are also subconsciously talking about imposing their culture onto other cultures as well. Right. Because here's the thing. It's fine if you have this ancient Near Eastern biblical perspective of love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, self control, guiding the leadership, principally. Right. That there are Christian leaders who are fleshing this out and we are wanting this to be a reality. But at the end of the day, you can't have a Christian nation if people's hearts aren't changed. Right. You can impose things that are biblical within society, which I'm not against, actually. I think that's great in some ways. Not saying we legislate everything, but I do think there are some things that should, like thou should not kill. That's great. Let's legislate that. I think that's biblical. That is wonderful. I don't have a problem with that. I think it gets sticky or it's a slippery slope when it sounds like. And again, the news clip said it. You know, they said global Christian domination. I don't know if that's the terminology that they would use. I don't like that term. I don't like domination because it feels forced. It feels like the Crusades. It feels less like missionaries coming in to love people and set precedents with love and more like Shri Allah, like, hey, this is the way things are going to go. And. And I'm not for that. You can't force a person to love their neighbor. You can't force a person to, you know, give with a cheerful heart. Those are not things you can force upon people. And so Jesus says the greatest of commandments is to love your. Is to, you know, to love the Lord God with all your heart, my soul and strength and to love your neighbor as yourself. Those are commands. I think he does a great job of making the bar so high that we can't achieve it without the power of the Spirit, without transformation. Right. And so I think there's Christian principles that can be employed globally and nationally. But what are we saying when we say we want a Christian nation? I also don't know how I feel about. I just would hope that the people praying in front of the White House, praying for the soil of America, are praying just as hard for the soil of Iran of any other country. I pray that they want heart change and transformation in those places just as much as they want it here. Because God is not standing behind America like, there they go. Those are for God, so love the nation that he gave his only son for God. So love the world. Right? That. I mean, I think the world is. Is. Should be considered. I want to take a second to address something because there's. There are Christians out there who spend years thinking that they're broken or thinking that they're failing God because they're struggling with unwanted or distressing thoughts. And that is not a spiritual failure. Right. It could be due to a common but overlooked condition that's called religious ocd, which is also known as scrupulosity ocd. Now, this is a form of OCD that can turn your faith into a source of constant guilt, doubt, fear. But what you have to understand is that OCD is not about just being neat or organized. Those are the stereotypes. OCD latches on to what you care about most, and it causes this cycle of distressing and intrusive thoughts and behaviors that you do to get rid of the anxiety. And a lot of people are silently struggling with religious ocd, thinking that is some sort of personal failure or a lack of faith. That's not true. And that is where no CD comes in. So no CD is the world's leading OCD treatment provider. All their licensed therapists are trained in erp, or exposure and response prevention therapy. In live virtual sessions, they help you break free from OCD's grip while still honoring your faith. If you think you might be struggling with religious OCD, do not wait. Okay? Head over to nocd.com, book a free 15 minute call with their team today, and start recovering your faith from OCD. That's nocd.com. all right, as you're listening to this episode, I gotta interrupt and tell you something interesting, a quick story. When I filmed this episode, recorded this episode, I had been traveling extensively. I get back home and my son looks at me and he's like, dad, what's for dinner? But I realized that my wife was out of town and it was on me. And y' all do not understand how grateful I was at that moment. For every plate. To think about going to the grocery store to deal with the grocery prices and then to have to figure out what I'm going to cook and then to have to clean all of that up is too much for me. This is why every plate makes the biggest difference in my life. They've got a rotating selection of good food. You got 35 weekly choices that you can tailor to your family's preference. And it's going to be cheaper than a grocery store, I'm telling you. Try Every Plate and get 2.99per meal on your first box plus 10% off for a month. Just go to EveryPlate.com podcast and use code LECRAE299 to claim your offer. That's code LECRAE299. At EveryPlate.com podcast you get $2.99 per meal on your first box, plus 10% off for a month. So ditch the dinnertime dilemmas with every plate. Reminds me I gotta order some more food.
- [30:25]
Lecrae
As the U. S. Israeli war on Iran rages on, US Military commanders have reportedly been invoking extremist Christian rhetoric about biblical end times, selling the conflict to American troops as a holy war. The watchdog Military Religious Freedom foundation says it's been inundated with more than 200 complaints from members across all branches of the US military regarding these comments. One combat unit commander report reportedly said the war is part of God's divine plan and that quote, president Trump has been anointed by Jesus to light the signal fire in Iran to cause Armageddon and mark his return to earth, unquote.
- [31:07]
Expert/Guest (possibly a theologian or analyst)
Our main purpose is to protect the wall separating church and state in the technologically most lethal organization ever created by our species, which is the US Military. As soon as the war began last Saturday, a week ago this past Saturday, we started getting inundated by calls from members of the military indicating that supervisors and commanders across the branches, both in the conus, which is the continental United States and internationally, were invoking the fact that this was great news. They were gleeful, they were joyful, they were euphoric, because this was a signal that pursuant to the Christian eschatological aspects of the end times in the Book of Revelation, that all of this was serving as, if you will, an accelerant or lubricant to bring their version of weaponized Jesus back, which I will also make it clear includes a metric of a 200 mile long river, four and a half feet deep, Amy, filled with nothing but the human blood of those that their version of Jesus has slaughtered at the Battle of Armageddon. But it's terrifying when you try to put a, you know, a theological perspective from Christian extremism with what's happening right now. I'm reminded of the second inaugural speech by Abraham Lincoln when he chastised both sides in the Civil War for trying to say that God was on their side, which exacerbated the violence, the bloodshed, the injuries and the death.
- [32:25]
Host/Commentator
So I used to play basketball. And I used to pray that we would win. And then I remember when I got older and somebody was like, what if there's a person on the opposite team praying the same prayer? And I was like, well, surely God doesn't hear them. He hears my prayers because I'm his child, you know? And I think that's what we're looking at here, is we're looking at people who are saying, no, we're God's people. And it's. There are. You just move in a dangerous territory when you start proclaiming that, you know, God wants us to go to war and defeat these people, to bring forward the kingdom. Right. The kingdom being pushed forward is, you know, what Jesus would represent. Right. It has nothing to do with global dominance. It has everything to do with demonstrating the power of the gospel. And that's not a hunger to murder. That's not a thirst for blood. The fact that. And again, I don't know if this is true. I just know what I just heard. The fact that there are military people coming in saying, hey, they're telling us that we're fighting God's war in order to rev up the machine and get people to believe that they're in some sort of holy war is the epitome of the Crusades. And look, how did that fare? Literally, there were soldiers who were being baptized with their sword out of the water. So that in order to say, hey, everything can be baptized but your sword. Your sword's got to kill. Everything else can be renewed but this sword. No, no, no, no, no. This is. This is still a tool of worldliness that needs to be wielded. And I think that it's a very similar thing when you're promising people that they're. They're fighting on God's side. And then on top of that, there are literally Iranian pastors and preachers and believers and women and children who, you know, don't share this worldview that are the. The bystanders and the victims of. Of death because we believe we're fighting in a. A holy altercation. Now, I'm not saying there are not casualties of war, even if we are on the right side, because that's biblical as well. It's happened. Joshua 6. Joshua storms around Jericho. The walls fall down, the women, the children, the donkeys die. Everybody dies. So it's not to say that you can't find biblical precedents for this. I just. We are not. God did not come speak to us as he spoke to Joshua. God has not told America, you are my chosen nation. You are my people. The people of God are the people who have accepted Christ and are walking forward in building his kingdom. And so, and then I just, I question. Yeah, just like, what are we reading the same Bible? Bible says that this attack at the end of time will come on Israel from the north and the south, and then that will be the final war, the war to end all wars that will usher in the end of time.
- [35:51]
Another Expert/Guest (possibly a biblical scholar or commentator)
All right, let's see it.
- [35:53]
Host/Commentator
Now, here's the question. Are we entering into that war right now?
- [35:57]
Another Expert/Guest (possibly a biblical scholar or commentator)
No.
- [35:58]
Host/Commentator
In Ezekiel 38 and 39 it mentions nations Gog and Magog. That's. That would be like modern day Russia. No, it also mentions persia in Ezekiel 38 and 39. That corresponds to modern day Iran.
- [36:13]
Another Expert/Guest (possibly a biblical scholar or commentator)
So Ezekiel 38, 5 says that Gog would go out with Meshec and Tubal and then says Persia, Ethiopia and Libya would be with them. And then it also mentions Gomer and Beth to Marga. Now, if you only mention Persia because Iran is associated with Russia these days, and then ignore that, you're also supposed to have a couple of African nations and Crimea and others fighting over alongside them. You just ignore that, then you actually don't care about this prophecy. You're just trying to cherry pick isolated portions of the prophecy to make it sound like it is accurate and it's just not. This is about the 6th century BCE and these people groups, some of them probably aren't even real, that are supposed to come out against Israel in the 6th century BCE. This has absolutely nothing to do with today.
- [37:14]
Host/Commentator
What we do know is that if Iran enters the war, that Turkey and Russia will probably go with them. Right behind them will be North Korea and China. And if all of the world powers start attacking from the north and the south, start trying to attack Israel, that could be the war to end all wars that ushers in the end of history.
- [37:35]
Another Expert/Guest (possibly a biblical scholar or commentator)
No, it would have absolutely nothing to do with the 6th century BCE prophetic tradition. It would just be an awful war that would destroy millions and millions of lives. Jesus Christ also has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with this 6th century BCE prophecy, because no one would know who Jesus was for over 500 years. Again, this has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the 21st century country. You're just cheering on a war that will destroy millions of lives and you have absolutely no idea how it will end. You're just trying to stoke the fires of your petty and naive identity politics and it's going to hurt people.
- [38:17]
Host/Commentator
Let me say this. I like Josh Howerton. I Don't know if we would agree on everything. But I do like some of his perspectives and I like, you know, a biblical pushback on some things that, vantage points that I typically wouldn't see. And that's, that's the way my mind works too. I'm very open. I don't choose sides. I listen to perspectives and then see where I land. I will say this. I, I'm not fully versed in kind of end times, prophecy and war. So I'm, I'm hearing some clips of Josh kind of cherry pick some stuff, and then I'm hearing this gentleman here say that those are not legitimate. And, and I would have to do some digging to understand, like where Josh is coming from and then also to verify what was told to me by this particular gentleman. But what I do know and what I will say is that I, and personally not of the belief that we're going to be able to look in the scriptures and be able to pinpoint the, the end times that way. I, I, I personally believe Jesus said no one, no man knows the hour or the day, and that, you know, we don't know the time period. Like Paul said, we're in the last days. Thessalonians was a letter about the last day. Like this, he's coming back soon, y'. All. What soon is, is subjective between us and God. Soon could be in 20,000 years, soon could be tomorrow. I think we do ourselves a disservice by trying to meal piece this together, cobble it together, especially in order to defend or justify a national position. Right? I am grateful to be an American. I am honored that I live in a country that I've been all over the world and trust me, this is a much better place. But I am not so nationalistic that I lose my sense of kingdom mindedness. It's always kingdom over nation. It's always kingdom over nation. And I would never try to, I don't know, cobble scriptures together in order to justify a, a war for my nation.
- [40:46]
Expert/Guest (possibly a theologian or analyst)
It seemed the, the idea that there's a prophecy from thousands of years ago that says that when events are appropriate or when these things line up, the end of the world will happen. Fine. But then making that so feels like a cheat code, right? Like trying to bring about the conditions in which the end of the world happens. It feels like you're circumventing natural events. There will be pestilence, there will be these things. It's a prophecy from thousands of years ago. And if it's not happening fast enough, then it's on me to make it happen. Doesn't that. At the surface, that's evil, right? If you are trying to hurt and harm and wreak chaos, then you're the agent of that chaos.
- [41:39]
Lecrae
Yes. God is not. You are.
- [41:43]
Host/Commentator
I don't disagree with the idea that if we are using the scripture to justify violence against other people, to perpetuate that because we want to see it happen, I don't disagree that that's wrong. But at the same time, I also realize there's just a lot of people who genuinely believe what they believe. They're not moving with the thought process of, let me manipulate this scripture in order to get my way. Now, there may be some people do that. I never want to assume the heart or the motive of a person. But I do know people. I have friends currently who fully have that vantage point of like, no war is justifiable right now because God is doing something and we are the agents of change in society. And God is using this as a moment to show us that the end times are now. I think it gets. Listen, people are going to hate me for that. They're going to be like, you're not paying attention to the prophecies and the points. And listen, I am open to God showing. I want him to come back, y'.
- [43:05]
Lecrae
All.
- [43:05]
Host/Commentator
Maranatha, please, Lord, I am more. I'm looking forward to the latter days more than anybody out there. Get me off this ghetto planet, please. But I'm also trying to be bring heaven on earth, you know, on earth as it is in heaven. I'm also here to paint a picture of the kingdom, to pursue love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, self control, goodness. And I'm not going to try to hit the fast forward button on biblical prophecies so that I can kill people, or I'm not going to kill people thinking that it's fast forwarding what God wants. But I do know people who don't feel like they're hitting the fast forward button. They're just like, no, this is what we need to be doing right now because the world is evil. And y' all, let me say this, too. The tension I do have with the pacifist view, right, is that I've been to the Middle east multiple times, right? I've been to places where I've seen women barred up in a window and they had no rights. None. And I thought. And I asked questions like, hey, what? What can you do about this? And they're like, if you protest, you die or you go to prison for Life like it is dark and there's liberation needed. The question becomes, how is that liberation accomplished? So don't hear me saying that there are not, you know, Iran is not a rogue nation that does not submit to the UN or any world organizations like that. And Iran is moving at the beat of its own drum and doing some harmful things. Don't hear me say that that's not the case. Hear me say that there are human beings there, that there are people made in the image of God that we should love and think through how to. Pursue transformation in places like that in the healthiest way possible. And I think where it gets complicated is because you got serious Christians. You've got missionaries, you got people who literally risked their lives for the Iranian people, for Iranian souls. And how do you walk through that underground Iranian church, which is one of the fastest growing churches in the world? Right? There's more Iranians have become Christians in the last 20 years than the previous 13 centuries combined. And now we're bombing a country where the church is the fastest growing in the world. And, you know, what do you do with that? Right? What do you do with that? Like, I again, I wrestle. I wrestle. Because if you break into my house and you try to hurt my children, you will be stopped. Painfully stopped, right? I am not going to say, please don't hurt my kids in the name of Jesus, let's work this out. And then he shoots me in the leg. And I say, shoot the other leg, please, because that's not gonna happen, right? I'm telling you me, now, I think a lot of us will justify our perspective and say, because the way I feel is the way I feel. It's the right way to feel if I die and meet the Lord. And he's like, that's not how you should have handled that, Lecrae. You should not have tried to remove this man's head from his shoulders because he attacked your daughter. Then, you know, I have to deal with that. But where I'm at today, I feel justifiable in stopping this person with force. So if there are real threats, nuclear threats, physical threats, threats against the livelihood of our nation, sure, I. I'm not opposed to stopping that. But is that the first line of defense is, are we at the place where someone has broken into our house and grabbed our daughter? Is that where we are? Or are we at the place where someone is just scoping our house out? And if they're scoping our house out, do I run outside and shoot them? Right? Or do I. Do I find Another means to deal with this problem. So I think there's lots of different perspectives, and I want to read you something from Russell Moore. Russell Moore wrote this, and I think it's an important message because he's not talking about Iran. He's not talking about Donald Trump. He's not talking about nuclear weapons. He's talking about us. And what he says is, he says, wars don't just shape nations. They shape all of us subtly. By redefining what feels normal, our perspective changes. We become something like. Here's another way to look at it. I've done a lot of work in prisons. I got family members who spent tons of time in prison. And your sense of normal changes when you're in prison. All right? Normal in there is not normal out here. Your sense of what is normal just changes completely. You don't sit at certain tables. That's the rule. That's the law. You don't do it. Segregation, especially in California state prisons, is still in place. Segregation is there. Blacks, whites, Hispanics. We do not mix at mealtime. It's a no, no. And is that okay? No, it's not. But the sense of normal changes because of the environment. And what Russell Moore is saying here is that war does the same thing. It changes our sense of what normal is. We begin to acquiesce and become okay with certain things that, you know, we shouldn't be okay with. Wendell Berry says this even just wars become classrooms that prepare us for the next one. You know, even a war that is justifiable has some elements that teach you, like, hey, we know how to do this. We know what to do. I went to Kuwait and did a show there for the US Military, and I heard a lot of interesting perspectives. You know, I heard some gentlemen and women who were like, man, I hope nothing escalates, because I just want to get home to my kids. And I heard some guys who were like, man, I want some action. I'm ready to shoot something up. I was like, yo, my man. Like, that's not healthy. You know what I mean? Like, there's a. That's a human. And I. And I did this simulation where they had me lay on my stomach and shook a target, right, with a. With. It's like a simulated gun. It's all digital, and I was doing pretty good. I was like, bow, bow, bow, bow, bow. I was lighting them up. I was a sharpshooter, y'. All. And I said, that's crazy. And they were like, man, you killed it. You killed it. And I looked to the officer, I said, yeah, that's crazy. I was really doing it. But it's not the same as like a real person though. And he was like, no, it's the exact same. And I was like, whoa, whoa. You know, if you can have the perspective that it's just targets, that you're just eliminating targets, I think there's a new normal that's being created. If you're not grieving the fact that you had to take out an image bearer, whether it was justifiable or not. Right. Even if it's justifiable, I think there's something wrong there. Check out this clip. Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. I don't know if you knew this, but anyone can get the same Premium Wireless for $15 a month plan that I been enjoying. It's not just for celebrities. So do like I did and have one of your assistant's assistants switch you to Mint Mobile today. I'm told it's super easy to do.
- [51:28]
Lecrae
@mintmobile.com Switch upfront payment of $45 for 3 month plan equivalent to $15 per month Required intro rate first 3 months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See full terms@mintmobile.com
- [51:44]
Host/Commentator
I've got Dan Morgan here on the pod. Say hi, Dan. Hey, how's it going today?
- [51:48]
Expert/Guest (possibly a theologian or analyst)
It's going good, man.
- [51:49]
Host/Commentator
Tell us who you are and what you do. I'm Dan Morgan. I'm an attorney and a managing partner at Morgan and Morgan, which is America's largest injury law firm. That's pretty awesome. I think I saw a billboard of yours recently that said 20 billion won. 20 billion is an insane number. Yeah, 20 billion recovered. It's actually, I think somewhere north. Probably closer to 22, 23 after this year. And each year we get bigger and badder and our army grows. So the number will hopefully keep getting bigger and bigger as time goes on. Awesome. So how does someone get in contact with Morgan and Morgan? What would I do if I got into an accident? Probably the easiest way is dialing pound law. That's £529 from your cell phone. We are always open. Our call center is always waiting to take your call. 247 365. Wow. Dan Morgan from Morgan and Morgan, America's large injury law firm. Thanks for coming by the show. Thanks for having me. Visit forthepeople.com for an office near you.
- [52:42]
Lecrae
My name is Mackenzie and I started a GoFundMe for the adoptive mother of
- [52:47]
Host/Commentator
a nonverbal autistic child. The mother had lost her job because she wasn't able to find adequate care
- [52:55]
Lecrae
for this autistic child.
- [52:57]
Host/Commentator
So she really needed some help with living expenses, paying some back bills. So I launched a GoFundMe to help support them during this crisis. And we raised about $10,000 within just a couple of months. I think that the surprising thing was
- [53:17]
Lecrae
by telling a clear story and just
- [53:19]
Host/Commentator
like really being very clear about what we needed, we had some really generous donations from people who were really moved by the situation that this family was struggling with.
- [53:29]
Lecrae
GoFundMe is the world's number one fundraising platform, trusted by over 2,200 million people. Start your GoFundMe today at gofundme.com that's gofundme.com gofundme.com this podcast is supported by GoFundMe.
- [53:42]
Host/Commentator
Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. I don't know if you knew this, but anyone can get the same premium wireless for 15amonth plan that I've been enjoying. It's not just for celebrities. So do like I did and have one of your assistant's assistants switch you to Mint Mobile today.
- [53:57]
Expert/Guest (possibly a theologian or analyst)
I'm told it's super easy to do@mintmobile.com
- [54:00]
Lecrae
Switch upfront payment of $45 for 3 month plan equivalent to 50 DOL. $15 per month required intro rate first 3 months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees, extra fee, full terms@mintmobile.com see what we think about this.
- [54:38]
Host/Commentator
Okay, so for those of you listening, the clip I just watched was the White House posting a video of NFL players getting hit, getting tackled. And then it would be a jump clip to a bomb hitting Iran. And that is numb to me. Right? That is not a healthy vantage point. And I don't know who's behind that White House TikTok account, but you may have thought that you created an awesome clip and I'm sure that revs up the the blood lusty people out there who are like, got him. I don't celebrate death. I don't. I celebrate freedom. I celebrate liberation. I celebrate people being liberated from tyranny and evil dictatorship and rulers. But I don't celebrate death. If someone is killed and it ends a reign of terror, I celebrate the end of the terror. You know, but when women and children are being blown apart, I think it's numb of us to compare bombing a nation to a good sack in the NFL. I think that's sad. It makes me emotional just thinking about it because I can only imagine if the shoe was on the other foot and we're being bombed and I have to pick my little girl up and comfort her as her limbs are hanging off her body. And to know that someone in another nation is cheering because they got us, because they bombed us. Like the anger I would feel toward them, the fight that I would have to execute forgiveness, to execute love your enemies as you love yourself, would be so difficult. And you know, I would see them as a villain, as I'm sure people see us as villains for posting something like that. It's heartless, it's not godly. And to me there's no justification for that type of action. That is nationalism gone numb, right? You can be grateful for your nation, you can be proud of your nation, but you cannot justify sin and lack of empathy and destroying image bearers because of your nation. It's kingdom over nation. Every time. Russell Moore has another quote. He says, even when a war is necessary, war is never good. War is always awful. People end up being killed and destroyed and disrupted in war. If war gives us a charge of delight, even if it's right to do, something is happening in our souls and we ought to watch out for it. War in every case is hell. Let's watch our souls carefully lest it make us hellish. I 1000% agree. You know, I've just seen war affect my family. I have many family members who have served this country who've gone to war. And I've seen the PTSD and the trauma. I've seen the loss of body parts and of my family members from being at war. It is hellish. And I've seen them come back to a nation that they fought so proudly for and were not treated with respect or honor or dignity as well. And so I think that's something to be investigated. As I watch the clips, man, my heart grows sad because I know that even if this is necessary, it ends in the loss of innocent lives. And I know that that's happened for thousands of years, it's happened in the scriptures and that God is ultimately in control and has a plan. But it still breaks my heart. And for me, I'm always wondering, is there a way to avoid conflict? If there is, can we pursue it? I don't pretend to know all the details in this war and if it was avoidable, I've heard various perspectives that say it absolutely was. There could have been other things that we could have done. There's perspectives to say no. We've tried since 1979 and nothing has worked out. This was absolutely necessary in either way, whether it's justifiable or not, I reserve the right to be sad. If I have to take the life of somebody who threatens my family, I would still mourn for the mother of that particular person. It would still break my heart just being honest. So where do I land? Listen, I cannot say I'm certain that Jesus calls us into blind pacifism, right? But I also don't believe he calls us into a blind allegiance to a nation. So I find myself wrestling in that tension. Right? I have a deep skepticism of war, but a high bar for justification. And I have a commitment to human dignity on all sides. Because at the end of the day, war is not something Christians should ever be excited about, even when it is necessary. It's still tragic. It's still broken. It's still a reminder that the world is not as it should be. And our job is not to win arguments. It's not to pick sides like this is a game, but it's to represent a different kingdom. Some people want peace at all costs. Some people want justice at all costs. But the cross shows us a God who's holding on to both. And if we're going to speak on war, we better speak with that kind of weight. Because real people made in the image of God are on both sides of our opinions. I love y', all, man. Russell, Will, this is the deep end with Lecrae.