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- [00:00]
Tim Peterson
Foreign.
- [00:10]
Sarah Jerty
Hello.
- [00:10]
Kameka McCoy
Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Digiday Podcast, a show for anyone who's ever wondered the difference between Mr. Beast and Libby Dunn. I'm Kameka McCoy, senior marketing reporter here at Digiday.
- [00:22]
Tim Peterson
And I'm Tim Peterson, executive editor of video and audio at Digital Media. Kamika, I'm gonna be honest with you. It feels really hard right now to talk or even think about anything other than the Alex Preddy killing this weekend in Minneapolis. It feels hard to, like, even know what to say about it, let alone in the context of a podcast that centers on, like, media and marketing businesses. That said, one thing that has really resonated with me is the comments made by Minnesota Governor Tim Waltz where he said, thank God there's video, or thank God there are videos of this. And, like, obviously, it's a horrible thing and a horrible thing to have documented on video, but given the disinformation and misinformation that can be spread during tragedies like this, 100%, I agree with Tim Waltz. Like, thank God there are videos of this. And I think one of the reasons that resonated so much with me is because this happened right after the launch of TikTok US. And we've talked about on the show, like, one of certainly my big concerns and I feel like a good number of people's concerns with TikTok U.S. is there's a new algorithm and that the U.S. government has a hand in TikTok U.S. and by extension, in that algorithm. Oracle is one of the new owners of TikTok US. And, you know, Oracle founder Larry Ellison is buddy buddy with Donald Trump. And so, like, the potential for this new algorithm to suppress videos, like the videos of Alex Preddy. And so that's where my head is at right now is just like, thank God there are videos of this. And hopefully, I mean, obviously, hopefully, things like this never happen again. I don't think we live in that world where that's a real possibility, but hopefully, at least when tragic events like this do happen, there will be videos, and those videos will reach people.
- [02:55]
Kameka McCoy
We are living through. I hate to dub them as unprecedented times, because I feel like we have not left unprecedented times since those six years ago or even 10 years ago, if you want to go all the way back. I share the same sentiments, and I do hope that TikTok will continue to be a place where information is spread, shared, and, you know, there's community found there.
- [03:23]
Tim Peterson
Yep. Yeah. And I mean, also to an extent, like, thank God there are and will be reporters at Digiday but also elsewhere who are going to be reporting on, like if there is suppression at TikTok US or you know, ideally if there's suppression on any other platform. So also thank God for that. All that being said, I don't really have, I don't know, like, what else to say on either of these topics right now. So I feel like we just kind of make a hard pivot towards what this week's episode is. I really enjoyed the conversation we had in this week's episode. So hopefully, as tough as things feel at the moment, listeners will get some entertainment, a bit of a kick, maybe some good insights out of the episode. So we had Digiday's executive editor of news, Seb Joseph and Digiday's managing editor, Sarah Jerty on the show and we had a bit of debate.
- [04:30]
Kameka McCoy
We did. I think this is the first time that we've done a debate style podcast episode. So really excited to kind of bring that to the push and hopefully that's something that we can explore further. You'll have to listen to find out our arguments for full out arguments. But Seb, executive news editor and I, Seb Joseph took the stance that there is a difference between a creator and an influencer. You and our managing editor, Sarah Durdy took the opposite stance. So we both presented our arguing the great debater style. So it'll be a real juicy listen.
- [05:03]
Tim Peterson
Yeah. And I think, yeah, I think it's actually a really meaningful topic within our niche to be exploring and debating because I feel like it is a very real conversation and an important one because it kind of gets to the question of what's the value of influencer or creator, whatever we want to call them. At the same time, it's kind of a really stupid question and a very like, dumb conversation to be having, which I think makes it a lot of fun. And I feel like we, the four of us really had a lot of fun in engaging in this debate in the episode. So I'm excited for people to listen.
- [05:48]
Kameka McCoy
Agree. Well, with no further ado.
- [05:57]
Tim Peterson
Here we go. I'm really excited for this week's episode. This is the semantics showdown, the Ali Frazier of influencer marketing. The conflict that's tearing the creator economy apart.
- [06:10]
Kameka McCoy
Correct.
- [06:11]
Tim Peterson
What the hell is the difference between influencers and creators? And so we're going to do this debate style. So you're on one side, I'm on the other side. You have a teammate, I have a teammate. Do you want to introduce your teammate?
- [06:25]
Kameka McCoy
Yes. And your side, my side is on the. There is a difference. And luckily for me, I've got the ever so smart executive news editor, Seb Joseph, working with me to prove our case that there's a difference between creators and influencers. Who's on your team, Tim?
- [06:45]
Tim Peterson
I've got Sarah Jeudy, our managing editor at Digiday, and our side is arguing that, no, there is no difference. You and Seb are. And anyone else who believes there is a difference between influencers and creators, at least a difference that's easily defined, are wrong.
- [07:04]
Kameka McCoy
Yes. Yes. So, all right, here's my rationale and then, Seb, please jump in here to back me up. There's a difference between creators and influencers. Influencers are mostly, in my imagination, point and shoot. The focal point is mainly themselves. In addition to whatever they hard sell is, whether it be a beauty brand, clothing, affiliate shopping on Amazon, that type of deal. A creator is a lot more expansive. They've got more tools in their tool belt. And then they. I would say that they're using social media as the vehicle for their content, whether it be podcasts, that type of deal. Seb, where are you at?
- [07:41]
Seb Joseph
I think creators and influencers are. They're related, but they're not the same. And the reason I say that is because if you think about it, if you take away a creator's brand deals, they're still a creator, right? They're still going to be doing the live streams, you know, posting that kind of funny video. You know, that's not the same for influencers, right. Without the, you know, kind of the brand deals, there, there's not going to be that video of them wearing those outfits that were sent to them by that brand because it wanted to influence kind of their audience. So, you know, while I understand the kind of confusion, you know, why the terms are used interchangeably, they both post. They both post videos to a dedicated audience that they're both trying to build businesses on the back of. You know, I think that's where the similarities kind of stop. Right? People are watching creators to be entertained and informed, whereas they're turning to influencers with a. With a tacit knowledge that, you know, someone is going to try and influence them to do something at some point. And I think that's evident in, you know, the content that these personalities make. Right. Drewski, you know, he's not going to be doing an outfit of the day video. Lydia Tomlinson is going to be, you know, going viral for parodying megachurch preachers.
- [09:10]
Tim Peterson
Okay? So there is the case that there is a difference between influencers, creators. I obviously do not think it is a strong case because I think, Seb, to your point of creators are going to be creating content whether they're making money from it or not. I don't know that I agree with that. Some will, but they won't be doing so on a regular basis. Also then those people are hobbyists, not professional creators. And I believe we are talking when we talk about creators, professional creators, just like we would be talking about professional musicians or professional athletes, not people who are playing pickup basketball, as great as that is for fitness. Those are not people who are going to be on Wheaties boxes necessarily. And we're also assuming that an influencer is only posting because they have brand deals. Now, a large share of what they're posting is because of those brand deals, but they didn't get those brand deals without posting in the first place. Usually there are some exceptions which I'm sure we will get to in this my summation of my argument and then I want Jody to chime in. What we're talking about here is a person who creates content that cultivates an audience and then monetizes their influence over that audience. This person is a creator and an influencer. They're intertwined. Is there anything you want to add?
- [10:49]
Sarah Jerty
Yes, so much. And I think we need to back up a little and just say that because we work and cover a part of the industry that has so many acronyms and so many different definitions for every single thing, it's really important to get on the same page both as a newsroom and for this conversation. And I will also caveat this by saying that I live and breathe by AP style and I love when language develops faster than we can write it. And this is a great example of that. I mean no one is going to argue that, you know, love em but that the Associated Press is on the precipice of change when it comes to accurately describing what we should be writing about. Anyway, I'm glad we're having this conversation. All of that to say not to push back on Yasseb, but I feel like your argument is built around potential. You know, like an influencer and or creator have the potential to sell something and that exchange of money is what makes them an influencer and a creator. And I feel like that's too soft. Whereas I think when you bundle rightly so the definition of creator and influencer as one, you're speaking more to their standing, their like, you know, social standing versus their ability to move dollars. It's more about perhaps it's more about intent than it is theoretical dollars moved for me.
- [12:20]
Tim Peterson
So Kumiko, Seb, have we convinced you to our side?
- [12:23]
Seb Joseph
No, Kumiko caught some strays there. Boy. Just to kind of come back on that front, I will say that when we're trying to talk about this perceived difference between the two, I don't think it matters to normal people. Right. I think really this thing only matters to marketers in the main because there is so much fluidity between the two. Ultimately these, you know, as sort of Tim and Sarah have rightly kind of outlined, we are talking about a kind of group of people that are ultimately doing the same thing. That said, you know, I will say.
- [13:11]
Tim Peterson
Just leave it there.
- [13:13]
Seb Joseph
It sounded like you were agreeing with us.
- [13:14]
Tim Peterson
That's fantastic.
- [13:16]
Seb Joseph
That said, I will say the difference does matter for marketers because when you think about what's happening in the market at the moment, you know, influencer marketing is, is more about the paid media aspect of all of this. Right. Whereas the creative businesses, at least in terms of how marketers are engaging with them, you know, that feels a lot more closer to kind of how they would be transacting working with a media company. And you know, I think that distinction, you know, when you kind of think it through, sort of changes kind of everything about how marketers are moving into the creative economy. Right. Influencers kind of get treated essentially like advise, whereas the creators kind of get treated more like long term partners.
- [14:12]
Kameka McCoy
Yes.
- [14:13]
Seb Joseph
I know you're both going to come back and sort of talk about, you know, the fact that that can be interchangeable and you're right, but I think that fluidity exists more at the edges and the basic divide at least, you know, as we see it in the reporting that we do kind of shapes everything from budgets to expectations to relationships in the space.
- [14:35]
Tim Peterson
Sorry, Sarah, I think all I heard there was Seb saying that we're right multiple times.
- [14:40]
Sarah Jerty
Yeah, agreed.
- [14:44]
Kameka McCoy
I do think there's something to be said though, doubling down on that space, that it is important to marketers. Right. If I'm spending what little ad dollars that I am allotted in this life, it's going to make a difference. Right. Because if I'm looking for a performance play, I'm going to influencers that are going to go with a hard sell if I want creators, like to your point, a Drew Ski or something like that, there's not a hard sell there. And that may be more of a brand awareness play. I may be looking for a point to start conversation and things like that.
- [15:14]
Tim Peterson
The ROI is a lot of TV commercials.
- [15:17]
Kameka McCoy
He is, but I would give him as a creator as opposed to being an influencer, because there's a distinction.
- [15:27]
Tim Peterson
Sarah, please.
- [15:28]
Sarah Jerty
Well, I just feel like this conversation, the arguments that you're making could have been more valid maybe 5 years ago when it was still early days and there wasn't so much competition. Oh, come on. Come on, we're having fun, Sarah.
- [15:41]
Tim Peterson
Journey off the top rope.
- [15:44]
Sarah Jerty
No, I just feel like, you know, we have matured as an industry. You guys are selling marketers short, too, for not understanding and embracing the power of creators and influencers. And I'm sitting here talking and I'm thinking, like, what argument is a quote unquote influencer making to move these dollars? Not approaching it as a creator. You know, I just don't. I don't know what that would look like. You know, if you were to untwine the two, what would that conversation be?
- [16:15]
Kameka McCoy
Going back to your point about pricing, right. And things like this, if I'm looking for a shorter term, smaller buy, they're just kind of like budding breading influencers and things like this. To be able to amplify what my creator is, the main focal point of my message, then, yes, smaller, smaller influencers that are doing hard sales is who I'm going to go to to amplify what my creator, my Drew Ski, my Drew Fuello, my Caleb Huron is saying in that sense.
- [16:44]
Sarah Jerty
I just think it's too big now to go off of vibes in the way that it was, you know, again, five years ago.
- [16:49]
Seb Joseph
I wouldn't say it's. I wouldn't say it's kind of vibes, but I think it would be silly to compare someone like Drewski, who's arguably kind of transcended being a typical creator. But if we're just using him, for example, given he's being talked about at the moment, it would be silly to compare him to what a traditional. Not even a traditional. To what an influencer does these days, right? From. In terms of product recommendations and, and sort of reviews and those things. That's not what he does. He is in the business of entertaining. And I think, you know, again, coming back to why we're having this conversation, if I'm a marketer, despite all of the nuances, you know, that are kind of baked into the market, you need to start somewhere. And having a clear, ish divide between what a creator does and what an influencer does is, Is essential. Right. You know, I think you see that in the market as well. Why we have all of these influencer marketing platforms that will connect influencer A with brand B. And then you have, you know, creators, at least some of the sort of the medium to larger sized ones that will kind of have agents and agencies that will kind of work on their behalf.
- [18:05]
Tim Peterson
I agree with the point that you made back when Seb, you were saying how right Sarah and I are. But I feel like influencer is a context in which we talk about creators for sure. But ultimately, like the profession is content creator. Influencer is the context in which we're talking about content creators doing deals with brands or on, you know, posting content on behalf of brands. But in that case, it's not so different from traditional actors, professional athletes, professional musicians, who we talk about, you know, in those occupations. But when they're doing spokespeople deals or when their attention, the attention they cultivate is being traded upon either by them in the form of spokesperson deals or by tabloids in the form of selling photos for paparazzi or what have you, then we're talking about those people as celebrities and they can be both the same thing. I feel like what celebrity, the term celebrity is to a traditional actor, professional athlete, a professional musician is what an influencer is to a professional content creator.
- [19:24]
Seb Joseph
Of course. And I wouldn't dispute that.
- [19:27]
Tim Peterson
Again, Seb's saying we're right.
- [19:28]
Kameka McCoy
I love it.
- [19:32]
Seb Joseph
You know, I definitely think the influencer part is part of the broader creative business. But, you know, every influence is a creator, not every creator is an influencer. And I think you, I think you see that in the market now. And I think as marketers, there is a. I keep sort of going back to this point and so Kimiko sort of touched on it earlier, but I think you see that in how these deals are done. The process in which a brand will go and do a typical influencer deal is very different to how they will work with a creator. At least as we're thinking about it in the clearest way that we can think about it in the current sort of context. Right. Like we have to start somewhere. I think if we sort of talk about it, you know, out the gate as this kind of nuanced, amorphous thing, then we're just never going to make any sort of progress in terms of like talking about the differences between the two and how, what's the word? How. Not fragmented, fragment, the right word, vast, I guess the kind of market has become. And on one hand you do have creators that are out there. Do creators, influences that are out there. You know, doing a very specific.
- [20:52]
Tim Peterson
Are you sure you chose the right term there? The terms perhaps be synonymous, but like, to my.
- [20:59]
Seb Joseph
To. To my point of. I think that that kind of touches on it though. Right. The fact that even I'm getting confused at this moment in time gets back to the thrust of why Kimiko and I feel like, A, there is a difference, but B, why we probably need to be doing a better job at sort of talking about it. Because, you know, when I'm talking to, you know, kind of sources, there is a kind of subtle shift, you know, in conversation, how they talk about things when they're talking about influences versus creators.
- [21:33]
Kameka McCoy
No, I back up my partner here. I do. I stand by the idea that there's a difference between the two. Not to say that an influencer cannot be creative and not to say a creator cannot have influence. Right. But to me, it doesn't make the two professions interchangeable. I think even going based off of, like, their rankings. If you were to ask me to name five influencers off the top of my head, where it's just, like I said, categorized as a hard sale regardless of how many followers they have. If there's nothing that exists outside of their get ready with me, hard sales, you know, Amazon affiliate links and things like this, I don't know these people. Creators. I know, and I feel like that is because there's something that exists outside of the hard sale on social media. Even when marketers talk about it. Right. They identify the difference between the two. Because if there is a ROI that's attached to it, influencers are going to get me a quick hit because there's a hard sale attached to it. Creators are a little bit more of, like I said, a brand awareness play. You. I mean, I've seen conversations where creators play like Alex Earl helping Poppy create, like a new soda brand and things like that. Are you going to go to an influencer for that?
- [22:45]
Tim Peterson
Alex Earl is an influencer. A creator, apparently, yes. So what's the. What's the. A creator who is not an influencer. What's an example of that person? What makes it that they're a creator but not an influencer?
- [23:02]
Kameka McCoy
Somebody who works. So to your point, somebody who works with. And they could still have influence. Right. But they may not necessarily be an influencer.
- [23:09]
Tim Peterson
Could make them an influencer. Interesting.
- [23:12]
Kameka McCoy
If we're arguing on your side. Yes. If we're arguing on my side.
- [23:15]
Tim Peterson
No, it feels like you and Sab are arguing on my side. You just don't want to come over here. But it's really nice. Sarah and I don't fight. Although Sarah, a second ago kind of.
- [23:25]
Sarah Jerty
Oh, give me a break. We've moved on.
- [23:29]
Kameka McCoy
If you're thinking about like an artist, somebody who works with like meet like, I don't know if you're like a claymation artist or something like that. I can't give you a name right now. But in that sense, if there's like art is your medium. Social media is just the vehicle. Right. Your creator. That's how I would identify.
- [23:44]
Tim Peterson
How do they make their money?
- [23:47]
Kameka McCoy
I don't. They may not necessarily make money from brand deals.
- [23:50]
Tim Peterson
So then they're not a professional.
- [23:52]
Kameka McCoy
I said from brand deals. What if they're like a podcaster and things like that?
- [23:58]
Tim Peterson
How does their podcast make money? Ads, which is a form of brand deal if I'm not mistaken.
- [24:05]
Kameka McCoy
But the pla. I don't know. I limit influencers to social media, whereas creators have more mediums.
- [24:13]
Tim Peterson
Define social media. Is YouTube social media?
- [24:18]
Kameka McCoy
No, I don't even. It's video at this point.
- [24:22]
Tim Peterson
Okay, so now we're drawing a line. Which YouTube will love that because YouTube hates when it gets grouped under social media. If you talk to any YouTube executive, they bristle visibly when you describe YouTube as a social platform. But then, so then we're eliminating everyone who's a YouTube creator who has made YouTube their primary platform.
- [24:46]
Kameka McCoy
Say that again.
- [24:46]
Tim Peterson
Is that right? If you're someone who's a YouTube star, let's set aside creator and influencer first.
- [24:57]
Kameka McCoy
So like a Michelle Khari. Uhuh, Okay.
- [25:00]
Tim Peterson
A Michelle Carre, a Casey Neistat Marquis Brown. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. These people are not influencers.
- [25:09]
Kameka McCoy
I would call them creators.
- [25:11]
Tim Peterson
Okay. I would call them creators. Difference between like someone who makes videos on YouTube and someone who makes videos on TikTok.
- [25:23]
Kameka McCoy
I think if you were to transfer a Marquis, if you were to transfer a Michelle or any of the other people that we talked to, their content would still live outside of YouTube. If they were to make their own video channel, that content would still exist, which makes them a creator. If you were to take that vehicle of that platform away from the influencer, there's the influence, doesn't. There's no influence anymore.
- [25:51]
Tim Peterson
What.
- [25:53]
Kameka McCoy
The term is more expansive in my opinion. Right. It's not limited to a brand deal on social media. To me, you are an influencer. If it's limited to a brand deal on social media. If your work lives beyond social media, that's a creator. And like social media just again, becomes the vehicle for your work.
- [26:14]
Tim Peterson
But if that Brand deal is just on YouTube, then it's okay.
- [26:18]
Kameka McCoy
You're trying to get me, Tim?
- [26:20]
Tim Peterson
Well, I'm just trying to understand, especially, I mean, even within YouTube, like, are we making a distinction between YouTube proper and YouTube shorts?
- [26:30]
Kameka McCoy
Hmm. Now, now I've got to think, because with YouTube shorts, you could be an influencer, and it could strictly be an influencer if it's YouTube shorts.
- [26:39]
Tim Peterson
Because I think for Sarah and I, our argument that creator and influencer is the same largely boils down to there is no clear delineation. If we were going to treat these things as different, we would be able to define that difference very cleanly and explicitly. As this conversation is showing. That's not possible because they're not a different.
- [27:08]
Seb Joseph
I think you can define anything cleanly and efficiently in media these days. But I think when we're talking about influencers, you know that they are in a business of like, yes, they are creating content, but that content is being used to influence, elicit some sort of action on behalf of another company. Like, yes, originally, they might have started out as a creator just doing product demos because they love the tech. But ultimately, at some point, the brand comes in and the entire sort of content strategy that they lock into is built around that dynamic. If you're a creator, it doesn't necessarily end there. Like, you know, those brand deals are part of a greater or just. Or. And sometimes they're not. Sometimes the brand deals come in, sometimes they don't. But you're creating the content because, you know, like, that's you. You want to entertain people, you want to make them laugh, or, you know, you really like video games or anime or whatever it may be. It's, it's, it's. It. There's more of a. I don't want to say emotional attachment to it, but there's an interest in there that you're looking to sort of build an audience on the back of and not necessarily try and monetize it as along strict kind of guardrails. Like, kind of brand deals. Not necessarily. Yeah, like, brand deals. I think that's where we kind of start this debate. And then anything off the back of that is where the nuance sort of comes in. But as a baseline, that is how marketers would be thinking about it. And then, you know, that will kind of change by platform, by vertical, and kind of so on, as you guys have already outlined. But at least coming out the gate, that's where you start. Because ultimately, yes, you know, everyone will start off as a creator, right, because they're not necessarily. They don't know how this is going to sort of blow up. You know, not everyone's going to be a Drew Ski. Not everyone's going to be a Lydia Tomlinson and so on. So, you know, that comes. The more adept you get as a creator and your ability to serve, fashion.
- [29:36]
Sarah Jerty
An audience just to push back. You know, I feel like you guys are trying to attack this. Not attack this, but approach this conversation in terms of quality of work.
- [29:45]
Kameka McCoy
Such harsh words.
- [29:48]
Sarah Jerty
I know. They're really sharp as they're coming out, too.
- [29:50]
Kameka McCoy
I heard.
- [29:51]
Tim Peterson
I was wondering if Sarah was gonna come in for like a DDT or a body slam. Like, I'm trying to go through all the wrestling moves that she's got in stores for this conversation.
- [30:01]
Sarah Jerty
What is going on?
- [30:03]
Seb Joseph
People's elbow to finish.
- [30:05]
Sarah Jerty
I'm being attacked.
- [30:10]
Tim Peterson
I think you are attacking. And as your teammate, I am all for it in supporting you. Get him. Get him.
- [30:19]
Sarah Jerty
You, Kimiko and Seb are approaching this conversation by attaching meeting to the word influencer creator to quality of work. It seems like in terms of the amount of money you're able to attract.
- [30:31]
Seb Joseph
Not quality of work. Type. I'd say type not. Definitely not quality.
- [30:35]
Sarah Jerty
Okay, fair. That still sort of like leaves it where I want it to say that sometimes we're able to report on things and say objectively because they are doing X in the industry, they equal. Yeah. And then sometimes you have to trust your sources to say, I identify as such. And we then have to say, because you are operating in this environment, because you are in a place that you are working with intent to create content, and even though you have an influencer of your direct family of five who really give a shit about what you say, you still do have influence among the community. You are a content creator and they're an influencer, and you trust your source to represent themselves fairly, and you give them the space and the platform to do so. And so for me, I think that this is an issue that's less of. There's nothing hard to measure here. There's no. I don't agree with type of work influencing whether you use influencer creator. That feels squishy to me. I think this is a case where you have to trust your source to speak to the level of intent and motivation they have to operate in the industry that they want to. And by the way, the creator economy has matured so much that you're not really going to have a leg to stand on, because some people view influencer more squishy than Content creator. So then it.
- [31:59]
Seb Joseph
But has it matured though? Because there still isn't tangible measurements around it and no real kind of standard. So, you know, we talk about maturity, but it's, I find that really subjective. Like yes, there's a lot of money moving into it, but it feels, it still feels to me like the Wild West. And you know, conversation is, is indicative of, of that in many respects.
- [32:27]
Sarah Jerty
I mean, I think part of the issue that all of this is subjective, that we are having fewer collective lived experiences. So how you define creators versus influencers ultimately is like, you know, what does it matter? What else do we have to relate to?
- [32:42]
Seb Joseph
No, of course, I think, no. But I think we sort of teed this up before. I don't think it matters to most people, but I think it does to marketers. Hence why, you know, like Unilever will talk about its influencer team, but Nike will talk about a creator team. I think every brand will see it differently because they are going into it with slightly different kind of goals and objectives. But I don't think that that, that negates that, that there is a, a different type of, of kind of creator kind of out there. And why we shouldn't sort of be having this conversation because I think it's needed. I think every couple of years it's probably a needed sort of temperature check on just the kind of state of the industry, right, to kind of see how far we've come and how far we've kind of still to go. And it sounds like, you know, from the kind of stalemate we're at, that there's still a long way to go. Because I don't know about you, Kimiko, but I'm definitely not convinced by what SJ and Tim have said.
- [33:48]
Kameka McCoy
I am absolutely not convinced. I stand still on this side.
- [33:54]
Sarah Jerty
My flippant comment about what does it matter is not about this conversation, which I deeply appreciate. I love talking about words. I'm a freakin nerd. It's more about what it was a flippant comment about what does it matter between influencer and content creator. In which case it doesn't because they're the same as the rest of that.
- [34:11]
Seb Joseph
Ooh, they're not.
- [34:13]
Tim Peterson
I feel like there's a lot of posturing when it comes to how these terms get used by people in the industry, but also just people in the world. You know, like the term creator really originated with YouTube stars because this was when an influencer really originated with Instagram. And it was around the same time frame in that like 2010 to 2014 time where YouTubers didn't want to be grouped into, under, like, influencers alongside Instagram people. Because at that time, being an Instagram influencer really just meant you took a nice photo of your breakfast or your outfit for that day, put a nice filter on it, and people liked it. And Brand said, hey, you know, take my product, post that. And YouTubers were thinking, well, shit, I'm editing video, I'm filming, I'm doing all of these things. My content is more than just an Instagram photo. I need more of a. I need a stronger term that reflects everything that goes into my content. I think there's validity to that, but at the same time, it undersells what would go into a lot of those Instagram posts, because those people were acting like photographers in a way. They were thinking about layout, they were thinking about lighting, they were thinking about composition, they were thinking, you know, about filters, they were thinking about captions. There's a lot of thought that went into the creation of their content. And so as much as you had YouTube creators and YouTube itself wanting to distinguish YouTube stars from Instagram stars, I think ultimately influencers get shortchanged for their creative chops and the production and the thought that goes into the content that they are creating, whether that content is a Get ready with me or a travel vlog or a Day in the Life video, there's a lot that can go into that. And so the olive branch I would like to extend to Team Kimiko and Seb, maybe it's a life raft, is influencer is the term we use when the context we're referring to these people is discussing the creator's business. Creator is the term we use when the context is discussing the creator's content.
- [37:00]
Kameka McCoy
I can allow that.
- [37:06]
Seb Joseph
You're better than me, Kameka.
- [37:08]
Tim Peterson
Agree. Was agree the word that you wanted.
- [37:10]
Seb Joseph
To use better than me? Kameko?
- [37:12]
Kameka McCoy
I will allow it. I feel like this is a conversation that could, as we've seen, go in circles and circles and circles, and it's hard to define. It has been hard to define for the last couple of years. Even marketers have a tough time making the distinction. Right. So I feel like it is fair to say that there is a gray area that exists here, hence the need for this conversation. That I will allow. Sep's not convinced?
- [37:42]
Seb Joseph
No. I think there is a really valid point about influences being essentially kind of undervalued because of the gap that's been allowed to sort of develop between that term and what sort of creators kind of Are, at least from a kind of perception. What I would say, though, I just wonder if it's right to think about it as, you know, influencers being the kind of business side, you know, and the creators more around the creative side because I don't know. I don't know if some of the larger creators are best described by as using the term influencer. Just don't.
- [38:34]
Tim Peterson
But why?
- [38:36]
Kameka McCoy
Oh, we're back at square one.
- [38:40]
Tim Peterson
We never left square one.
- [38:42]
Seb Joseph
But they're not influencing me in any way. Like, to, like, yeah, I watched their video, but I'm not. I'm not influenced by them in any way. Just like I'm. I'm there for vibes and the laughs and that sort of thing. Like, you know, I'm not.
- [38:55]
Tim Peterson
You've never bought a Feastables or Chamberlain coffee.
- [39:00]
Seb Joseph
But that's. But to that point, that's. That's the kind of boredom business kind of side of things.
- [39:06]
Tim Peterson
Right.
- [39:06]
Seb Joseph
Like, I'm not, you know that. Yeah, I'm not. I'm not convinced.
- [39:11]
Sarah Jerty
Maybe not influenced, but moved. Moved by them to feel joy and to laugh and respond to them.
- [39:17]
Seb Joseph
Then you're a celebrity then, aren't you?
- [39:20]
Tim Peterson
Mm. Which is. Can be the part two of this conversation. What is the celebrity? But for now, I think we need to leave it at Sarah and I are correct and Miko and Seb have their head. I think. I think we'll leave it at agree to disagree. That being said, I feel like the fact that we have to agree to disagree confirms that there is no difference between the two. But that's just me trying to get in the last words there. I don't know if you want to go for, like, the jugular.
- [39:58]
Seb Joseph
Sneaky.
- [39:58]
Tim Peterson
All right, well, this is a really fun conversation. Sarah, Seb, appreciate you both coming in. Sarah, appreciate you bringing the heavy ammunition with you.
- [40:09]
Kameka McCoy
It's been great.
- [40:10]
Tim Peterson
Thank you so much for doing this, everyone.
- [40:14]
Kameka McCoy
We've given our opinions, but I think given that it's a great area for us, I would love to know what marketers and advertisers think about this. So I want to throw it to the audience. Right. Please do email us. Comment. Leave a comment on our. On our page about who do you think won, first of all, this conversation and then to how you define what is a creator and what is an influencer. We'd love to hear from you.
- [40:40]
Tim Peterson
So if you'd like to register your opinion, especially your opinion that agrees with me, you can email me@timidigitalay.com all opinions that don't agree with me. I will read. I will probably respond to with my arguments from this episode, but all opinions are appreciated. Some are more valid than others. Thanks for listening to this episode of the Jjay Podcast. If you enjoyed it, please leave us a rating and a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you're listening. Get more from Digiday with our daily newsletter sent out each weekday morning. Visit digida.comnewsletters to sign up.