Creators vs. influencers: Inside the divide (RERUN)

Summary

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The Digiday Podcast – June 30, 2026

Episode Title: Creators vs. Influencers: Inside the Divide (RERUN)
Hosts/Panel: Tim Peterson (Executive Editor, Video & Audio), Kimiko McCoy (Co-host), Sarah Jerdy (Managing Editor), Seb Joseph (Executive Editor of News)

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Episode Overview

This episode of The Digiday Podcast spotlights a lively, debate-style discussion about a surprisingly heated issue in digital media: Is there a real difference between “creators” and “influencers”—or is it mostly semantics? Tim Peterson and Sarah Jerdy argue that the two are effectively the same. Kimiko McCoy and Seb Joseph contend that the distinction is meaningful, especially for marketers. The conversation covers industry language, the evolution of digital talent, business models, and the practicalities of influencer marketing.

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Key Discussion Points

Introduction to the Debate

[01:29–02:44]

• Tim Peterson sets up the episode as a "Semantic Showdown—the Ali-Frazier of influencer marketing," describing the “conflict that’s tearing the creator economy apart.”
• The debate format is announced: Peterson & Jerdy (no real difference) vs. McCoy & Joseph (there is a difference).

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Defining “Creators” vs. “Influencers”

[03:38–05:45]
Kimiko McCoy’s Position:

• Influencers: Primarily focus on themselves and product promotion; “point and shoot,” centered on sponsorships, e.g., beauty, clothing, affiliate links.
• Creators: More expansive in content and skillset; use social media as a vehicle for various creative forms (video, podcasts).

  "Influencers are mostly, in my imagination, point and shoot. The focal point is mainly themselves... A creator is a lot more expansive." (Kimiko, [03:38])

Seb Joseph’s Position:

• Creators remain so even without brand deals—motivated by creation and expression.

• Influencers’ output is tied to partnerships and commercial intent.

  "If you take away a creator's brand deals, they're still a creator... that's not the same for influencers." (Seb, [04:15])

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Arguments: The Terms are Intertwined

[05:45–07:23]
Tim Peterson’s Position:

• Most “creators” monetize influence over an audience, regardless of income method.

• Professionals in either category are “creating content that cultivates an audience and then monetizes their influence.”

  “What we're talking about here is a person who creates content that cultivates an audience and then monetizes their influence over that audience. This person is a creator and an influencer. They're intertwined.” (Tim, [06:56])

Sarah Jerdy’s Perspective:

• Industry terms are fluid, and intent might matter more than transaction.

• “Creator” and “influencer” often speak more to standing than income.

  "...when you bundle... the definition of creator and influencer as one, you're speaking more to their standing... perhaps it's more about intent than it is theoretical dollars moved for me." (Sarah, [07:23])

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The Marketer’s Take: Does the Distinction Matter?

[08:54–13:18]
Seb Joseph & Kimiko McCoy:

• The distinction is more relevant to marketers than the general public.

• Influencer marketing leans on performance/hard sales (short-term ROI); creators more aligned with brand awareness and long-term partnerships.

• Marketers’ approaches, budgets, and expectations are shaped by these definitions.

  "Influencer marketing is more about the paid media aspect... creators... feels a lot more closer to kind of how [marketers] would be transacting working with a media company." (Seb, [09:50])
  "If I'm looking for a performance play, I'm going to influencers... Creators... may be more of a brand awareness play." (Kimiko, [11:24])

Sarah Jerdy’s Counterpoint:

• The industry has matured; the distinction is less meaningful as it once was.
• Both creators and influencers are now effective at moving dollars and building relationships.

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Examples and Edge Cases

[13:23–14:41]

• Drew Ski cited as a creator who has transcended the influencer label.
• Platforms like YouTube (with creators represented by agents) and influencer marketing platforms reflect different market treatments.

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Mid-Episode Sponsored Segment on Mobile App Discovery

[15:05–19:06] (Skip if focused solely on the creator/influencer debate)
See episode transcript for discussion with Patrick Callanan (T-Mobile) and Lee London (Unity) on app discovery and install experience.

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Further Parsing the Divide

[19:26–31:40] Tim Peterson:

• “Influencer” is a context—when talking about deals and brand partnerships.

• Draws a parallel to how “celebrity” is to actor/athlete/musician—the business aspect.

  "Influencer is the context in which we're talking about content creators doing deals with brands... what celebrity... is to a traditional actor... is what an influencer is to a professional content creator." (Tim, [19:26])

Seb Joseph:

• Still insists: Not every creator is an influencer; the distinction is real when brands seek different deliverables and outcomes.

  “Every influencer is a creator, not every creator is an influencer.” (Seb, [20:53])

Kimiko McCoy:

• Influencers: Social platform-specific, tied to hard-sell content.

• Creators: Possess broader mediums; their content could live outside any given platform.

  “If your work lives beyond social media, that's a creator and like social media just again becomes the vehicle for your work.” (Kimiko, [27:12])

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The Limits of Definition and Industry Semantics

[28:00–34:03]

• The group struggles to settle on clear dividing lines (e.g., is YouTube social media or not?).

• All agree these questions are less relevant to most audiences but matter to marketers and industry professionals.

• The creator/influencer split is also influenced by perception and self-identification.

  "Ultimately, yes, you know, everyone will start off as a creator, right, because... they don't know how this is going to sort of blow up." (Seb, [29:17])
  "Sometimes you have to trust your sources to say, I identify as such, and we then have to say... you are a content creator and they're an influencer." (Sarah, [31:52])

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Industry History and Language Evolution

[34:03–38:21]

• “Creator” became the favored label among YouTubers to distinguish from early Instagram “influencers,” whose content was perceived as lower-effort.

• Tim Peterson notes: This undersells influencers’ creativity and production work.

• Suggestion: “Influencer” is best used in a business context, “creator” in a creative context.

  "...the olive branch I would like to extend... Influencer is the term we use when the context we're referring to these people is discussing the creator's business. Creator is the term we use when the context is discussing the creator's content." (Tim, [38:06])

Kimiko’s Response:

“I can allow that. You’re better than me.” (Kimiko, [38:21])

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Endgame: Gray Areas and Ongoing Debate

[38:29–41:34]

• Both sides acknowledge gray areas.

• Seb questions whether the business/creative split sufficiently captures where the industry is now, especially for large creators with entrepreneurial ventures.

• They agree to “agree to disagree”—the line, if it exists, is blurry and in constant flux.

  "I feel like this is a conversation that could, as we've seen, go in circles... it is fair to say that there is a gray area that exists here. Hence the need for this conversation. That I will allow. Except. Not convinced." (Kimiko, [38:33])
  "We never left square one." (Tim, [40:00])

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Audience Call-to-Action

[41:34–42:00]

• Kimiko encourages listeners (especially marketers and advertisers) to weigh in on who won the debate and how they define creators and influencers.

  “Please do email us... who do you think won... and then to how you define what is a creator and what is an influencer. We'd love to hear from you.” (Kimiko, [41:34])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the fluidity of definitions:

  “Influencer is a context in which we talk about creators, for sure. But ultimately, the profession is content creator.” (Tim, [19:26])

• On the marketing distinction:

  "When you think about what's happening in the market at the moment, influencer marketing is more about the paid media aspect... creators... are treated more like long-term partners." (Seb, [09:50])

• On the gray area:

  "I feel like the fact that we have to agree to disagree confirms that there is no difference between the two. But that's just me trying to get in the last words there." (Tim, [41:01])

• Historic context:

  “The term creator really originated with YouTube stars because this was when... influencer really originated with Instagram... YouTubers didn’t want to be grouped under... influencers.” (Tim, [34:34])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:29] – Debate setup and team introductions
• [03:38] – Kimiko and Seb’s position: There is a distinction
• [05:45] – Tim and Sarah’s position: Terms are interchangeable
• [08:54] – Marketer perspective: Why it matters (or not)
• [13:23] – Creator examples, Drew Ski, and market realities
• [19:26] – “Influencer” as business context, “creator” as content context
• [27:34] – Platform-by-platform gray areas and dividing lines
• [34:03] – Evolution of industry language
• [38:29] – Agreement on gray areas and the debate’s unresolved status
• [41:34] – Audience call for opinions

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Conclusion

This episode highlights the ongoing turbulence around defining “creator” vs. “influencer.” The debate exposes just how porous the boundary is—and how essential, yet frustratingly subjective, the distinction remains for marketers and industry insiders. The panelists ultimately agree there’s plenty of overlap, with practical distinctions mostly concerning business context and marketer intent. The question remains very much open, with no absolute definitions—just plenty of passion, anecdotes, and ongoing industry evolution.

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Want to contribute your thoughts on the creator vs. influencer divide? Email [e-mail] or comment on the Digiday website.

Transcript

[Patrick Callanan]

What's intrusive is I'm trying to make a phone call and there's an ad that pops up between me and being able to make my phone call or trying to send a text message. So I think that realistically, like carriers, OEMs, any partners in the space like Unity, we just have to think of our own device experience and we always have to ask that question, do we want this on our phone? Would this be a good experience for us? And if the answer is no, we shouldn't pursue it. And again, I think that that's where we go back to like the app install suite that we've been running with Unity for a number of years. That typically is about a 30 to a 40 second experience on your device as you're unboxing your new phone and it cuts out a lot of time that you would have to go into the Google Play store and download individual apps one by one. So there is a clear value to that.

[Christina Koh]

That's Patrick Callanan, TR General Manager of Mobile Monetization at T Mobile Advertising Solutions, our sponsor on this episode of the Digiday Podcast. Later in the show, Custom Intelligence talks with Patrick and Lee London, head of Aura US at Unity, about mobile changing consumer preferences and maximizing the app install experience.

[Kimiko McCoy]

Foreign.

[Tim Peterson]

Hello and welcome to the Digiday Podcast. I'm Tim Peterson, Executive Editor of Video and Audio at Digiday Media, and I have a question for you. Creators, Influencers, are these the same thing to you or are you able to articulate some difference between the two? It's a question my co host Kimiko McCoy and I put to Digiday's managing editor Sarah Jerdy and Executive editor of News, Seb Joseph in an episode earlier this year. And it's the episode we've received the most feedback on with a whole mix of arguments and I think the argument or conversation Kimiko, Sarah, Seb and I had has held up pretty well because the more I think about it, the more my own thoughts have evolved. But maybe, maybe we'll save that for a future episode. Please enjoy this re airing of the creator versus Influencer debate and after a short summer break, we'll be back with new episodes starting on July 14th. Happy summer, Kumiko. I'm really excited for this week's episode. This is the Semantic Showdown, the Ali Frazier of influencer marketing. The conflict that's tearing the creator economy apart.

[Kimiko McCoy]

Correct?

[Tim Peterson]

What the hell is the difference between influencers and creators? And so we're gonna do this debate style. So you're on One side, I'm on the other side. You have a teammate. I have a teammate. Do you wanna introduce your teammate?

[Kimiko McCoy]

Yes.

[Tim Peterson]

And your side?

[Kimiko McCoy]

My side is on the. There is a difference. And luckily for me, I've got the ever so smart executive news editor, Seb Joseph, working with me to prove our case that there's difference between creators and influencers. Who's on your team, Tim?

[Tim Peterson]

I've got Sarah Jeudy, our managing editor at Digiday, and our side is arguing that, no, there is no difference. You and Seb are. And anyone else who believes there's a difference between influencers and creators, at least a difference that's easily defined, are wrong.

[Kimiko McCoy]

Yes? Yes. So, all right, here's my rationale, and then Seb, please jump in here to back me up. There's a difference between creators and influencers. Influencers are mostly, in my imagination, point and shoot. The focal point is mainly themselves. In addition to whatever their hard sell is, whether it be a beauty brand, clothing, affiliate shopping on Amazon, that type of deal, a creator is a lot more expansive. They've got more tools in their tool belt. And then they. I would say that they're using social media as the vehicle for their content, whether it be podcasts, that type of deal. Seb, where are you at?

[Seb Joseph]

I think creators and influencers are. They're related, but they're not the same. And the reason I say that is because if you think about it, if you take away a creator's brand deals, they're still a creator, right? They're still going to be doing the live streams, you know, posting that kind of funny video, you know, that's not the same for influencers, Right. Without the, you know, kind of the brand deals there, there's not going to be that video of them wearing those outfits that were sent to them by that brand because it wanted to influence kind of their audience. So, you know, while I understand the kind of confusion, you know, why the terms are used interchangeably, they're both post. They both post videos to a dedicated audience that they're both trying to build businesses on the back of. You know, I think that's where the similarities kind of stop. Right. People are watching creators to be entertained and informed, whereas they're turning to influencers with a. With a tacit knowledge that, you know, someone is going to try and influence them to do something at some point. And I think that's evident in, you know, the content that these personalities make. Right. Drew Ski, you know, he's not going to be doing an outfit of the Day video. Lydia Tomlinson is going to be, you know, going viral for parodying megachurch preachers.

[Tim Peterson]

Okay, so there is the case that there is a difference between influencers, creators. I obviously do not think it is a strong case because I think, you know, Seb, to your point of creators are going to be creating content whether they're making money from it or not. I don't know that I agree with that. Some will, but they won't be doing so on a regular basis. Also, then those people are hobbyists, not professional creators. And I believe we are talking when we talk about creators, professional creators, just like we would be talking about professional musicians or professional athletes, not people who are playing pickup basketball. As great as that is for fitness. Those are not people who are going to be on Wheaties boxes necessarily. And we're also assuming that an influencer is only posting because they have brand deals. Now, a large share of what they're posting is because of those brand deals, but they didn't get those brand deals without posting in the first place. Usually there are some exceptions which I'm sure we will get to in this. My summation of my argument and then I want Jody to chime in. What we're talking about here is a person who creates content that cultivates an audience and then monetizes their influence over that audience. This person is a creator and an influencer. They're intertwined. Is there anything you want to add?

[Sarah Jerdy]

Yes, so much. And I think we need to back up a little and just say that because we work and cover a part of the industry that has so many acronyms and so many different definitions for every single thing, it's really important to get on the same page both as a newsroom and for this conversation. And I will also caveat this by saying that I live and breathe by AP style and I love when language develops faster than we can write it. And this is a great example of that. I mean no one is going to argue that, you know, love em, but that the Associated Press is on the precipice of change when it comes to accurately describing what we should be writing about. Anyway, I'm glad we're having this conversation. All of that to say, not to push back on Yasseb, but I feel like your argument is built around potential. Know, like an influencer and or creator have the potential to sell something and that exchange of money is what makes them an influencer and a creator. And I feel like that's too soft. Whereas I think when you bundle rightly so the Definition of creator and influencer as one, you're speaking more to their standing, their like, you know, know, social standing versus their ability to move dollars. It's more about perhaps it's more about intent than it is theoretical dollars moved for me.

[Tim Peterson]

So, Kumiko Sub, have we convinced you to our side?

[Seb Joseph]

No. Kumiko caught some straights there. Boy.

[Patrick Callanan]

What?

[Seb Joseph]

Just. Just to kind of come back on that front, I will say that like when we're trying to talk about this perceived difference between the two, I don't think it matters to normal people. Right. I think really this thing only matters to marketers in the main because there is so much fluidity between the two. Ultimately these, you know, as sort of Tim and Sarah have rightly kind of outlined, we are talking about a kind of group of people that are ultimately doing the same thing. That said, you know, I will say

[Tim Peterson]

just leave it there.

[Seb Joseph]

It sounded like you were agreeing with us.

[Tim Peterson]

That's fantastic.

[Seb Joseph]

That said, I will say the difference does matter for marketers because when you think about what's happening in the market at the moment, you know, influencer marketing is, is more about the paid media aspect of all of this. Right. Whereas the creative businesses, at least in terms of how marketers are engaging with them, you know, that feels a lot more closer to kind of how they would be transacting working with a media company. And you know, I think that distinction, you know, when you kind of think it through, sort of changes kind of everything about how marketers are moving into the creative economy. Right. Influencers kind of get treated essentially like advice, whereas the creators kind of get treated more like long term partners. Yes. I know you're both going to come back and sort of talk about, you know, the fact that that can be interchangeable and you're right, but I think that fluidity exists more at the edges and the basic divide, at least, you know, as we see it in the reporting that we do, kind of shapes everything from budgets to expectations to relationships in the space.

[Tim Peterson]

Sorry, Sarah. I think all I heard there was Seb saying that we're right multiple times.

[Sarah Jerdy]

Yeah, agreed.

[Kimiko McCoy]

I do think there's something to be said though, doubling down on that space, that it is important to marketers.

[Seb Joseph]

Right.

[Kimiko McCoy]

If I'm spending what little ad dollars that I am allotted in this life, it's gonna make a difference. Right. Because if I'm looking for a performance play, I'm going to influencers that are going to go with a hard sell if I want creators, like to your point, a Drewski or something. Like that there's not a hard sell there. And that may be more of a brand awareness play. I may be looking for a point to start conversation and things like that.

[Tim Peterson]

The ROI is TV commercials.

[Kimiko McCoy]

He is, but I would give him as a creator as opposed to being an influencer, because there's a distinction.

[Tim Peterson]

Sarah, please.

[Sarah Jerdy]

Well, I just feel like this conversation, the arguments that you're making could have been more valid maybe 5 years ago when it was still early days and there wasn't so much competition. Oh, come on, come on, we're having fun.

[Tim Peterson]

Journey off the top rope.

[Sarah Jerdy]

No, I just feel like, you know, we have matured as an industry. You guys are selling marketers short, too, for not understanding and embracing the power of creators and influencers. And I'm sitting here talking and I'm thinking, like, what argument is a quote unquote influencer making to move these dollars? Not approaching it as a creator. You know, I just don't. I don't know what that would look like, you know, if you were to untwine the two, what would that conversation be?

[Kimiko McCoy]

Going back to your point about pricing, right. And things like this, if I'm looking for a shorter term, smaller buy, they're just kind of like budding breading influencers and things like this. To be able to amplify what my creator is, the main focal point of my message, then, yes, smaller, smaller influencers that are doing hard sales is who I'm going to go to to amplify what my creator, my Drew Ski, my Drew Fuel, my Caleb Horan is saying in that sense.

[Sarah Jerdy]

I just think it's too big now to go off of vibes in the way that it was, you know, again, five years ago.

[Seb Joseph]

I wouldn't say it's. I wouldn't say it's kind of vibes, but I think it would be silly to compare someone like Drew Ski, who has arguably kind of transcended being a typical creator. But if we're just using him, for example, given he's being talked about at the moment, it would be silly to compare him to what a traditional. Not even a traditional. To what an influencer does these days, right? From. In terms of product recommendations and, and sort of reviews and those things.

[Lee London]

He.

[Seb Joseph]

That's not what he does. He is in the business of entertaining. And I think, you know, again, coming back to why we're having this conversation, if I'm a marketer, despite all of the nuances, you know, that are kind of baked into the market, you need to start somewhere. And having a clear ish divide between what a creator does and what an influencer does is. Is essential. Right? You know, I think you see that in the market as well. Why we have all of these influencer marketing platforms that will connect influencer A with brand B. And then you have, you know, creators at least some of the sort of the medium to larger sized ones that will kind of have agents and agencies that will kind of work on their behalf.

[Christina Koh]

I'm Christina Koh, senior editor at Custom Intelligence, Digiday Media's in house agency. In this podcast, Interstitial story sponsored by T Mobile Advertising Solutions, we speak with Patrick Callanan, the company's general manager of mobile monetization, and Lee London, head of Aura Us at Unity, about mobile changing consumer preferences and maximizing the app install experience.

[Patrick Callanan]

Yeah, I mean, I think most of the mobile disconnect comes with the way investments are typically made on user acquisition and that's about it. So just getting the app on the device is incredibly important. It's incredibly important for your retargeting efforts in order to make the journey much easier for the user to convert. But what's also important is retention and engagement. And that's what I think we've really seen over the last couple of years. AT T ads is the ability to drive individuals into an app, often, which helps with any app that's generating ad revenue. It helps with any app that's trying to generate a cost per order. But at the end of the day, if you're spending money to get an app on the device, you should also spend just as much money, if not more, to get users to engage with it.

[Christina Koh]

And some of these efforts are going toward discoverability beyond the app stores, especially as consumer behavior evolves. And as Lee London from Unity explains, updating app store listings doesn't bring in new users.

[Lee London]

Yeah, so finding a new app today is really hard. So discovery and discoverability, there are new applications and games being released every single day. And knowing what's quality, what's going to work for me is incredibly hard to stand out for any app. So discovery is really moving off the App Store itself and more into experiences and devices that users are just using on the mobile device. So we see that it's like some brands are optimizing their store listings and it's just capturing demand that was already existing. So it's like, hey, you're going to go into the App Store and you're going to search for something and that demand is here. But to create growth in discovery, it's surfacing experiences at the right time when users are looking for new apps. So it's like a great example of this is an onboarding. You have a context window where I turn on a device and I'm setting up my device and right now it's like, I have a new device, maybe I'll get a new app, we'll have a new game, we'll have a new something and this is the right time to present this to users. This is really the Unity T Mobile partnership of what we've built is finding that discoverability window when users are looking for something new. And then it's like having the right on device placement to provide the app installs.

[Christina Koh]

App installs can be an aspect of mobile advertising that many brands overlook, but it's been successful for both T Mobile and Unity, as Patrick expands on, while offering many benefits to users over the years.

[Patrick Callanan]

Yeah, I see our partnership with Unity to be really focused on discovery. We partner with Unity on the app install suite, which is really focused on the unboxing of a new phone. Our goal there is to get the apps that you want on your phone on the device as quickly as possible and also as efficiently as possible. But we also want to enable you to discover new apps that are going to make your device experience significantly better.

[Christina Koh]

As brands increasingly seek the attention of younger audiences, understanding how they interact with their phones is crucial to delivering their desired experiences.

[Lee London]

Yeah, I think of this as really, it's like mobile native audiences of just the phone isn't a channel, it's the default storefront phone. Everything they do in their lives. So discovery is happening on these devices in a flow for what they're already doing. They're not just opening the store, they're not going and searching. It's just how they find things is just through using their device and everything that they're doing in a given day. And for brands like the bar is really high. The stat we all hear is like, you have eight seconds to grab attention before it's like a. It's like a mobile native is already moving on to the next. The next thing. So you have to quickly provide the value and that value, it can't interrupt the experience and it needs to be. It's like relevant to a user and that's really creating these experiences where you're on an application, you're in a flow and a user can quickly skip to the next if it's not relevant, but also trying to get it in front of a user when it makes sense.

[Christina Koh]

You've been listening to Lee London, head of Aura us at Unity and Patrick Callanan, general manager of mobile monetization at T Mobile Advertising Solutions, our sponsor on this episode. And now back to the Digiday podcast.

[Tim Peterson]

I agree with a point that you made back when Seb, you were saying how right Sarah and I are. But I feel like influencer is a context in which we talk about creators, for sure. But ultimately, like the profession is content creator. Influencer is the context in which we're talking about content creators doing deals with brands or on behalf, you know, posting content on behalf of brands. But in that case, it's not so different from traditional actors, professional athletes, professional musicians, who we talk about, you know, in those occupations. But when they're doing spokespeople deals or when their attention, the attention they cultivate is being traded upon either by them in the form of spokesperson deals or by tabloids in the form of selling photos for paparazzi or what have you, then we're talking about those people as celebrities, and they can be both the same thing. I feel like what celebrity, the term celebrity is to a traditional actor, professional athlete, a professional musician is what an influencer is to a professional content creator.

[Seb Joseph]

Of course, and I wouldn't dispute that.

[Tim Peterson]

Again, Seb's saying we're right.

[Seb Joseph]

You know, I definitely think the influencer part is part of the broader credit business. But, you know, every influence is a creator, not every creator is an influencer. And I think you, I think you see that in the market now. And I think as marketers, there is a. I keep sort of going back to this point, and so Kimiko sort of touched on it earlier, but I think you see that in how these, these, these, these deals are done. Like the process in which a brand will go and do a typical influencer deal is very different to how they will work with a creator. At least as we're thinking about it in the clearest way that we can think about it in the current sort of context. Right. Like, we have to start somewhere. I think if we sort of talk about it, you know, out the gate as this kind of nuanced, amorphous thing, then we're just never going to make any sort of progress in terms of like, talking about the differences between the two and how, what's the word? How. Not fragmented, fragment, the right word, vast. I guess the kind of market has become. And on one hand, you do have creators that are out there. Do creators, influences that are out there, you know, doing a very specific, chose

[Tim Peterson]

the right term there. The terms perhaps be synonymous, but like

[Seb Joseph]

to my, to my point, I think that that kind of touches on it though. Right. The fact that even I'm getting confused at this moment in time gets back to the thrust of why Kimiko and I feel like A, there is a difference, but B, why we probably need to be doing a better job at sort of talking about it. Because, you know, when I'm talking to, you know, kind of sources, there is a kind of subtle shift, you know, in, in conversation, how they talk about things when they're talking about influencers versus creators.

[Kimiko McCoy]

No, I back up my partner here. I do. I stand by the idea that there's a difference between the two. Not to say that an influencer cannot be creative and not to say a creator cannot have influence. Right. But to me, it doesn't make the two professions interchangeable. I think even going based off of like their rankings. If you were to ask me to name five influencers off the top of my head, where it's just, like I said, catego categorized as a hard sale regardless of how many followers they have. If there's nothing that exists outside of their get ready with me hard sales, you know, Amazon affiliate links and things like this, I don't know these people. Creators. I know, and I feel like that is because there's something that exists outside of the hard sale on social media. Even when marketers talk about it. Right. They identify the difference between the two. Because if there is a ROI that's attached to it, influencers are going to get me a quick hit because there's a hard sale attached to it. Creators are a little bit more of, like I said, a brand awareness play.

[Tim Peterson]

You've.

[Kimiko McCoy]

I mean, I've seen conversations where creators play like Alex Earl helping Poppy create like a new soda brand and things like that. Are you going to go to an influencer for that?

[Tim Peterson]

Alex Earle is an influencer.

[Kimiko McCoy]

A creator, apparently, yes.

[Tim Peterson]

So what's the. What's the. The a creator who is not an influencer. What's an example of that person? What makes it that they're a creator but not an influencer?

[Kimiko McCoy]

Somebody who works. So to your point, somebody who works with. And they could still have influence. Right. But they may not necessarily be an

[Tim Peterson]

influencer, which could make them an influencer. Interesting.

[Kimiko McCoy]

If we're arguing on your side. Yes. If we're arguing on my side.

[Tim Peterson]

No, it feels like you and Seb are arguing on my side. You just don't want to come over here. But it's if really nice. Sarah and I don't bite. Although Sarah, a Second ago, kind of.

[Sarah Jerdy]

Oh, give me a break. We moved on.

[Kimiko McCoy]

If you're thinking about like an artist, somebody who works with like meet like, I don't know if you're like a claymation artist or something like that. I can't give you a name right now. But in that sense, if there's like art is your medium. Social media is just the vehicle. Right. Your creator. That's how I would identify.

[Tim Peterson]

How do they make their money?

[Kimiko McCoy]

I don't. They may not necessarily make money from brand deals.

[Tim Peterson]

So then they're not a professional.

[Kimiko McCoy]

I said from brand deals. What if they're like a podcaster and things like that?

[Tim Peterson]

How does their podcast make money? Ads, which is a form of brand deal if I'm not mistaken.

[Kimiko McCoy]

But the pla. I don't know. I limit influencers to social media, whereas creators have more mediums.

[Tim Peterson]

Define social media. Is YouTube social media?

[Kimiko McCoy]

No, I don't even. It's video at this point.

[Tim Peterson]

Okay, so now we're drawing a line. Which YouTube will love that? Because YouTube hates when it gets grouped under social media. If you talk to any YouTube executive, they bristle visibly when you describe YouTube as a social platform. But then, so then we're eliminating everyone who's a YouTube creator who has made YouTube their primary platform.

[Kimiko McCoy]

Say that again.

[Tim Peterson]

Is that right? If you're someone who's a YouTube star, let's set aside creator and influencer first.

[Kimiko McCoy]

So like a Michelle Khari.

[Sarah Jerdy]

Uh huh.

[Kimiko McCoy]

Okay.

[Tim Peterson]

A Michelle Carre, a Casey Neistat, Marquis Brown. These people are not influencers.

[Kimiko McCoy]

I would call them creators.

[Tim Peterson]

Okay.

[Kimiko McCoy]

I would call them creators.

[Tim Peterson]

What's the difference between like someone who makes videos on YouTube and someone who makes videos on TikTok.

[Kimiko McCoy]

I think if you were to transfer a Marquis, if you were to transfer a Michelle or any of the other people that we talked to, their content would still live outside of YouTube. If they were to make their own video channel, that content would still exist, which makes them a creator. If you were to take that vehicle of that platform away from the influencer, there's the influence. Doesn't. There's no influence anymore.

[Tim Peterson]

What.

[Kimiko McCoy]

The term is more expansive in my opinion. Right. It's not limited to a brand deal on social media. To me, you are an influencer if it's limited to a brand deal on social media. If your work lives beyond social media, that's a creator and like social media just again becomes the vehicle for your work.

[Tim Peterson]

But if that brand deal is just on YouTube, then it's okay.

[Kimiko McCoy]

You're trying to get Me, Tim?

[Tim Peterson]

Well, I'm just trying to understand, especially, I mean, even within YouTube, like, are we making a distinction between YouTube proper and YouTube shorts?

[Kimiko McCoy]

Hmm. Now, now, I've got to think, because with YouTube shorts, you could be an influencer, and it could strictly be an influencer if it's YouTube shorts.

[Tim Peterson]

Because I think for Sarah and I, our argument that creator and influencer is the same largely boils down to. There is no clear delineation. If we were going to treat these things as different, we would be able to define that difference very cleanly and explicitly. As this conversation is showing. That's not possible because they're not a different.

[Seb Joseph]

I think you can define anything cleanly and efficiently in media these days. But I think when we're talking about influencers, you know that they are in a business of like, yes, they are creating content, but that content is being used to influence, elicit some sort of action on behalf of another company. Like, yes, originally, they might have started out as a creator just doing product demos because they love the tech. But ultimately, at some point, the brand comes in and the entire sort of content strategy that they lock into is built around that dynamic. If you're a creator, it doesn't necessarily end there. Like, you know, those brand deals are part of a great or just. Or. And sometimes they're not. Sometimes the brand deals come in, sometimes they don't. But you're creating the content because, you know, like, that's you. You want to entertain people, you want to make them laugh, or, you know, you really like video games or anime or whatever it may be. It's, it's, it's. It. There's more of a. I don't want to say emotional attachment to it, but there's an interest in there that you're looking to sort of build an audience on the back of and not necessarily try and monetize it as along strict kind of guardrails. Like, kind of brand deals. Not necessarily. Yeah, like brand deals. I think that's where we kind of start this debate. And then anything off the back of that is where the nuance sort of comes in. But as a baseline, that is how marketers would be thinking about it. And then, you know, that will kind of change by platform, by vertical, and kind of so on, as you guys have already outlined. But at least coming out the gate, that's where you start. Because ultimately, yes, you know, everyone will start off as a creator, right, because they're not necessarily. They don't know how this is going to sort of blow up you know, not everyone's going to be a Drew Ski. Not everyone's going to be a Lydia Tomlinson and so on. So, you know, that comes. The more adept you get as a creator and your ability to serve, fashion

[Sarah Jerdy]

an audience just to push back. You know, I feel like you guys are trying to attack this. Not attack this, but approach this conversation in terms of quality of work.

[Kimiko McCoy]

Such harsh words.

[Sarah Jerdy]

I know. They're really sharp as they're coming out, too. I heard.

[Tim Peterson]

I was wondering if Sarah was gonna come in for like a DDT or a body slam. Like, I'm trying to go through all the wrestling moves that she's got in

[Seb Joseph]

stores in this conversation.

[Sarah Jerdy]

What is going on?

[Seb Joseph]

People's elbow to finish.

[Sarah Jerdy]

I'm being attacked.

[Tim Peterson]

I think you are attacking. And as your teammate, I am all for it in supporting you. Get him, get him.

[Sarah Jerdy]

You, Kimiko and Seb are approaching this conversation by attaching meeting to the word influencer creator to quality of work. It seems like in terms of the amount of money you're able to attract.

[Seb Joseph]

Not quality of work. Type. I'd say type not. Definitely not quality.

[Sarah Jerdy]

Okay, fair. That still sort of like leaves it where I want it to say that sometimes we're able to report on things and say objectively, because they are doing X in the industry, they equal. Yeah. And then sometimes you have to trust your sources to say, I identify as such. And we then have to say, because you are operating in this environment, because you are in a place that you are working with intent to create content, and even though you have an influencer of your direct family of five who really give a shit about what you say, you still do have influence among the community. You are a content creator and they're an influencer, and you trust your source to represent themselves fairly and you give them the space and the platform to do so. And so for me, I think that this is an issue that's less of. There's nothing hard to measure here. There's no. I don't agree with type of work influencing whether you use influencer creator. That feels squishy to me. I think this is a case where you have to trust your source to speak to the level of intent and motivation they have to operate in the industry that they want to. And by the way, the creator economy has matured so much that you're not really going to have a leg to stand on, because some people view influencer more squishy than content creator. So then it's another thing.

[Seb Joseph]

But has it matured, though? Because there still isn't tangible measurements sort of around it and no real kind of standard. So, you know, we talk about maturity, but it's. I find that really subjective. Like, yes, there's a lot of money moving into it, but it feels, it still feels to me like the Wild west. And conversation is, is indicative of. Of that in many respects.

[Sarah Jerdy]

I mean, I think part of the issue that all of this is subjective, that we are having fewer collective lived experiences. So how you define creators versus influencers ultimately is like, you know, what does it matter? What else do we have to relate to?

[Seb Joseph]

No, of course, I think. No. But I think we sort of teed this up before. I don't think it matters to most people, but I think it does to marketers. Hence why, you know, like Unilever will talk about its influencer team, but Nike will talk about a creator team. I think every brand will see it differently because they are going into it with slightly different kind of goals and objectives. But I don't think that that, that negates that. That there is a. A different type of. Of kind of creator kind of out there. And why we shouldn't sort of be having this conversation. Because I think it's needed. I think every couple of years it's probably a needed sort of temperature check on just the kind of state of the industry, right, to kind of see how far we've come and how far we've kind of still to go. And it sounds like, you know, from. From the kind of stalemate where there's still a long way to go. Because I don't know about you, Kimiko, but I'm definitely not convinced by what SJ and Tim have said.

[Kimiko McCoy]

I am absolutely not convinced. I stand still on this side.

[Sarah Jerdy]

My flippant comment about what does it matter is not about this conversation, which I deeply appreciate. I love talking about words. I'm a freaking ner. It's more about what it was a flippant comment about what does it matter between influencer and content creator, in which case it doesn't because they're the same as the rest of that.

[Seb Joseph]

Ooh, they're not.

[Tim Peterson]

I feel like there's a lot of posturing when it comes to how these terms get used by people in the industry, but also just people in the world. You know, like the term creator really originated with YouTube stars because this was when an influencer really originated with Instagram and it was around the same time frame that, like 2010s to 2014 time where YouTubers didn't want to be Grouped into, under, like, influencers alongside Instagram people. Because at that time, being an Instagram influencer really just meant you took a nice photo of your breakfast or your outfit for that day, put a nice filter on it, and people liked it. And Brand said, hey, you know, take my product, post that. And YouTubers were thinking, well, shit, I'm editing video, I'm filming. I'm doing all of these things. My content is more than just an Instagram photo. I need more of a. I need a stronger term that reflects everything that goes into my content. I think there's validity to that, but at the same time, it undersells what would go into a lot of those Instagram posts. Because those people were acting like photographers in a way. They were thinking about layout, they were thinking about lighting, they were thinking about composition, they were thinking, you know, about filters, they were thinking about captions. There's a lot of thought that went into the creation of their content. And so as much as you had YouTube creators and YouTube itself wanting to distinguish YouTube stars from Instagram stars, I think ultimately influencers get shortchanged for their creative chops and the production and the thought that goes into the content that they are creating, whether that content is a Get Ready with me or a travel vlog or a Day in the Life video, there's a lot that can go into that. And so the olive branch I would like to extend to Team Kimiko and Seb, maybe it's a life raft. Is influencer is the term we use when the context we're referring to these people is discussing the creator's business. Creator is the term we use when the context is discussing the creator's content.

[Kimiko McCoy]

I can allow that you're better than me.

[Tim Peterson]

Agree. Was agree the word that you wanted

[Seb Joseph]

to use better than me? Kameko?

[Kimiko McCoy]

I will allow it. I feel like this is a conversation that could, as we've seen, go in circles and circles and circles, and it's hard to define. It has been hard to define for the last couple of years. Even marketers have a tough time making the distinction. Right. So I feel like it is fair to say that there is a gray area that exists here. Hence the need for this conversation. That I will allow. Except. Not convinced.

[Seb Joseph]

No. I think there is a really valid point about influences being essentially kind of undervalued because of the gap that's been allowed to sort of develop between that term and what sort of creators kind of are, at least from a kind of perception. What I would say, though, I just wonder if it's Right. To think about it as, you know, influencers being the kind of business side, you know, and the creators more around the creative side. Because I don't know. I don't know if some of the larger creators are best described by as using the term influencer. Just don't.

[Tim Peterson]

But why?

[Kimiko McCoy]

Oh, we're back at square one.

[Tim Peterson]

We never left square one.

[Seb Joseph]

But they're not influencing me in any way. Like, to, like, yeah, I watched their video, but I'm not, I'm not influenced by them in any way. Just like I'm. I'm there for vibes and the laughs and that sort of thing. Like, you know, I'm not.

[Tim Peterson]

You've never bought a Feastables or Chamberlain coffee.

[Seb Joseph]

But that's. But to that point, that's. That's the kind of boredom, business kind of side of things.

[Tim Peterson]

Right.

[Seb Joseph]

Like, I'm not, you know that. Yeah, I'm not. I'm not convinced.

[Sarah Jerdy]

Maybe not influenced, but moved. Moved by them to feel joy and to laugh and respond to them.

[Seb Joseph]

Then you're a celebrity then, aren't you?

[Tim Peterson]

Mm. Which is. Can be the part two of this conversation. What is the celebrity? But for now, I think we need to leave it at Sarah and I are correct and Miko and Seb have their head also correct. I think. I think we'll leave it at agree to disagree. That being said, I feel like the fact that we have to agree to disagree confirms that there is no difference between the two. But that's just me trying to get in the last words there. I don't know if you want to go for, like, the jugular the end here.

[Seb Joseph]

Sneaky.

[Tim Peterson]

All right, well, this is a really fun conversation. Sarah, Seb, appreciate you both coming in. Sarah, appreciate you bringing the, the, the heavy ammunition with you.

[Kimiko McCoy]

It's been great.

[Tim Peterson]

Thanks so much for doing this, everyone.

[Kimiko McCoy]

We've given our opinions, but I think given that it's a great area for us, I would love to know what marketers and advertisers think about this. So I want to throw it to the audience. Right. Please do email us comment. Leave a comment on our. On our page about who do you think won first of all, this conversation and then to how you define what is a creator and what is an influencer. We'd love to hear from you.

[Tim Peterson]

So if you'd like to register your opinion, especially your opinion that agrees with me, you can email me@tim digiday.com all opinions that don't agree with me, I will read. I will probably respond to. With my arguments from this episode, but all opinions are appreciated. Some are more valid than others. Thanks for listening to this episode of the Jjay Podcast. If you enjoyed it, please leave us a rating and a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you're listening. Get more from Digiday with our daily newsletter sent out each weekday morning. Visit digiday.comnewsletters to sign up.