Digiday editors on Trump administration picks and the impact on the ad industry

Summary

The Digiday Podcast: Editors on Trump Administration Picks and the Impact on the Ad Industry

Release Date: November 19, 2024

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Introduction

In this episode of The Digiday Podcast, hosts Kameka McCoy and Tim Pedersen engage in a comprehensive discussion about the implications of the Trump administration's appointments on the advertising industry. Joined by Digiday's senior marketing editor Christina Monlos and senior media reporter Sara Guaglioni, the conversation delves into post-election dynamics, streaming service challenges, platform competition, and the evolving landscape for marketers and media companies.

Key Topics Discussed

1. Post-Election Impact on Media and Marketing

• Traffic Trends and Subscriber Growth:
  Sara Guaglioni highlights the differences between the 2020 and 2024 elections, noting a [16:29] "bit less of a bump and definitely less of a sustained traffic surge" compared to 2020. Despite an earlier election call, some publishers like NBC News experienced increased traffic, while others saw declines in traditional TV viewership, exemplified by Rachel Maddow's show experiencing "a million fewer viewers than she averaged in October" [21:27].

• Subscription and Membership Increases:
  Post-election, several news outlets reported significant increases in subscriptions and memberships. Sara mentions that The Guardian hit their $2 million fundraising goal within three weeks by leveraging the election outcome [19:20], and Vox saw their biggest membership day since launch [19:41].

• Challenges in Sustaining Audience Engagement:
  With declining traditional TV viewership, especially among younger audiences, Sara emphasizes the difficulty for traditional news outlets to retain reader interest beyond the election news cycle [22:55].

2. Streaming Services and Live Events

• Tyson vs. Jake Paul Fight Challenges:
  The hosts discuss Netflix's handling of the Mike Tyson vs. Jake Paul fight, citing technical issues like buffering and sound problems [02:24]. Tim draws parallels to streaming difficulties faced by other major events, emphasizing the critical need for robust infrastructure as live sports increasingly migrate to streaming platforms [03:56].

• Financial Implications for Streaming Platforms:
  Tim notes that streaming services like Disney and Netflix are becoming increasingly profitable and are expected to surpass traditional cable in audience reach. However, the shift from dual revenue streams (subscriptions and ads) in traditional TV to primarily subscription-based models in streaming poses challenges for monetization [05:32].

• Expansion into Video by Traditional Audio Platforms:
  Kameka points out Spotify's venture into video podcasts, aiming to diversify revenue streams by offering ad-free subscription rev shares [07:14]. This move places Spotify in direct competition with platforms like YouTube, which has become a dominant podcasting platform [08:41].

3. Platform Competition and Social Media Dynamics

• Emerging Social Platforms:
  The conversation shifts to the competitive landscape among social platforms, discussing the rise of Threads surpassing Bluesky in signups and the impending introduction of ads on Threads [10:00]. Kameka likens the fragmentation of social media platforms to a "Rolodex," highlighting the complexity brands face in navigating multiple channels [14:27].

• Advertiser Shifts and Platform Reliability:
  Concerns are raised about streaming platforms' ability to handle high traffic during major events, referencing past issues with HBO GO and emphasizing the necessity for seamless user experiences to attract significant ad dollars [03:56].

• Influence of Trump on Platform Policies:
  Tim discusses the potential influence of Trump's administration on platform policies, particularly regarding advertising regulations. The appointment of Robert F. Kennedy Jr. as Health and Human Services Secretary could lead to significant changes, such as banning pharmaceutical advertising on TV [38:17].

4. Brand Strategies in a Polarized Environment

• Apolitical Stance vs. Purpose-Driven Branding:
  Christina Monlos and Sara Guaglioni explore how brands are navigating political landscapes. While some brands adopt a humorous or neutral stance to avoid alienation, others with strong ethical foundations continue to take definitive stands on social issues [24:40].

• Impact of Political Appointments on Advertising Decisions:
  Brands are re-evaluating their advertising strategies in light of new administration policies. For instance, potential restrictions on pharmaceutical ads could lead to a reallocation of advertising budgets [38:53].

• Consumer Behavior and Brand Alignment:
  The hosts discuss the growing trend of consumers preferring brands that align with their values. However, Christina notes a counter-trend where consumers prefer to stay uninformed about brands' political stances to avoid alienation [34:02].

Notable Quotes

• Kameka McCoy:
  “But how exciting is it, right? We have a Rolodex, youth.” [14:53]

• Tim Pedersen:
  “It's going to be interesting because like, again, that's a lot of money that gets taken off the table.” [40:34]

• Christina Monlos:
  “I don't think we're going to see that again. That's not happening again.” [25:08]

• Sara Guaglioni:
  “I think what we've heard is like, okay, we're trying to figure out who in the new administration, you know, has these points of view and, like, what does that mean for my brand and how should I be thinking about this?” [34:57]

Conclusion

The episode provides a nuanced exploration of the intersection between political developments and the advertising industry. As the Trump administration's appointments take shape, brands and media companies are grappling with strategic decisions to navigate a fragmented and politically charged environment. The discussions underscore the importance of adaptability, understanding consumer sentiment, and the continual evolution of media consumption habits in shaping future advertising and marketing strategies.

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For more insights and detailed analyses, tune into The Digiday Podcast and stay updated with the latest trends in digital media and marketing.

Transcript

[Kameka McCoy]

Hello. Hello and welcome to another episode of the Digiday Podcast. I'm your co host, Kameka McCoy, senior marketing reporter here at Digiday.

[Tim Pedersen]

And I'm Tim Pedersen, executive editor of Video and Audio.

[Kameka McCoy]

Tim, how are you?

[Tim Pedersen]

I'm good. I'm ready for Thanksgiving, I think now. I think this weekend was when things turned for me where it's just like, got some eggnog, getting started, listening to the music, and like, I think I'm ready for the holidays. How are you doing?

[Kameka McCoy]

I am in the same boat. Although Mariah Carey's gonna have to stay caged up just a little longer. We're not busting out the Christmas tunes just yet. I gotta get past the stuffing and Thanksgiving turkey, you know what I mean?

[Tim Pedersen]

Okay. See, I live in a Christmas in January and Christmas in July household. There was a few years ago, I think we had a fake tree that stayed up until March, if I'm not mistaken. I think I made a video for Digiday where I had to acknowledge in the video that, yes, there is in fact a Christmas tree in this room, but this was not recorded last year. So, yeah, it's definitely. That's how I think. Also the conversation we had for this week's episode. So we had senior marketing editor Christina Monlos and senior media reporter Sara Guaglioni on the podcast to talk more about the post election implications for marketers, media companies, all the industries that we cover. And as much as we make clear in our conversation, there's still so much uncertainty. It also felt like a conversation that helped me kind of come to terms with what's going on and kind of get. Feel more grounded, I think, in a way. I don't know. How did you feel about it?

[Kameka McCoy]

Yeah, I think it's. I think it got a little bit easier to see the tea leaves and the ripple effects or read the tea leaves and see the ripple effects of what a Trump presidency could look like for those in the industry. But before we get to that, we do have this week's juicy scoops. I am going to copyright that phrase. Including Q4 earnings, Spotify's plans for video podcast, and of course, post election bumps for ex competitors. So let's get to it.

[Tim Pedersen]

Yeah. So let's start with the Tyson. Mike Tyson, Jake Paul fight. Kamika. Did you tune into this fight on Netflix, Netflix's arguably biggest live event to date.

[Kameka McCoy]

You know, typically I only either tune in or show up to a sporting event if there's beer and chicken wings involved. But given Mike Tyson, a living legend, was Going head to head with Jake Paul. I could not miss it. So I did sit through buffering issues, sound issues and other things and also waiting until midnight Eastern time to see these two people go at each other. But yes, I did view. What about you?

[Tim Pedersen]

I did not. But you along with 60 million other people in the world did, which I mean that's a big. Granted that's a self reported number by Netflix, they didn't have a third party measurement firm measuring that or at least not reporting any measurements for that. But that's still a good size audience and it's very clear that this was a big deal because there was a lot made of the buffering issues that I guess people ran into for that. Did you run it? You ran into those?

[Kameka McCoy]

Yeah, a couple, I think through the first fight. Right. At some point like the sound just completely shut off. You couldn't hear anything. I had to exit out of the app and come back to get it to kind of pick back up where it left off. It was weird. And if I'm not mistaken, Netflix has had these issues before with A Love is Blind Live Live premiere a couple years ago or maybe last year.

[Tim Pedersen]

Yeah, yeah. And there's also like fairly long history of streaming services struggling with a lot of concurrent viewership. Like there was, I think it was Game of Thrones and this is before Max. I think this was when the HBO GO days where there were struggles there. So it's not the newest thing in the world, but it's super important for there to not be these kinds of issues because people obviously, as we saw this weekend, get loud about these things. Also, with live sports more and more going to streaming, there's also just kind of that bar from the sports leagues that the NFL has been very vocal in the past. As we go into streaming, we expect whoever is distributing us on streaming to have the technology to be able to deliver to tens of millions of people concurrently. The super bowl, more than 100 million people concurrently. So it'll be interesting to see in December. Netflix has NFL Christmas Day game. They just announced Beyonce is going to do the halftime show. Imagine good amount of people are going to be tuning in for that. So we'll see how Netflix's Christmas goes.

[Kameka McCoy]

I'll be there. No chicken wings, no beer, doesn't matter. I'll be there front and center. But I think all that points to the idea that there is money on the line here. Right. And when you start looking at earnings and things like that, those things need to be the live viewing events need to be up to bar for them to compete for those live sports ad dollars.

[Tim Pedersen]

Well, especially because what we continue to see in these quarterly earnings reports from TV companies and from streaming service owners is streaming is growing. Disney just turned in a profit again for its streaming business, which a year ago was not the case, two years ago was not the case. And it's also growing signups when it comes to the ad support side of things. And Netflix has also at this point been profitable on streaming for years and as we've been talking about, has a huge audience there. But at the same time, all of the traditional TV network side of the businesses are struggling across the board. And so it feels like obviously it's inevitable that at some point streaming is going to become, well, it seems to be inevitable that streaming will become a bigger business than cable tv. It's definitely going to become a bigger audience base than cable tv. But the business side is where things get tricky. Because you, in traditional tv, you have this dual revenue stream. People pay their monthly subscriptions to Charter Comcast or whoever and all the TV network owners get a cut of that money. On top of that, they get to sell ads. In streaming, historically you haven't had that. It's just been the paid subscriptions. Increasingly more and more there are these ad supported tiers that have popped up and these ad supported tiers are becoming more and more popular. Like Disney reported, 37% of the US signups for Disney in the most recent quarter were for the ad supported tier. Now that's 37%. That's not 63% who signed up for the ad frees here. But still not insignificant.

[Kameka McCoy]

It's something, I think what's also interesting, which kind of carries us into our next part of the conversation, is that there are more players getting into the video space. Right. You're seeing Spotify, which is traditionally a audio platform, getting into video and creating some platform opportunities for creators to get some revenue share and things like that.

[Tim Pedersen]

Yeah, and Spotify kind of has been trying to break into video for years at this point. Previously, Spotify had hired Don Ostroff who ran the CW network. She's since left, but that was part of their push. They had Courtney Holt over there who had done Maker Studios and I believe was at Viacom before that. So they've been trying at this and their latest attempt is to open up more monetization opportunities for video podcasters. So previously you could get a cut of advertising revenue. Now they're going to enable a rev share for ad free subscriptions, which also means as Someone who has the ad free tier of Spotify means I'm not going to have to sit through dynamically insert ads. Um, which is great for me because they get really annoying when they're inserted in the middle of someone saying something.

[Kameka McCoy]

Oh, my God. Have you ever listened to a true crime podcast that lasts for an hour and there's like four ads inserted into that bad boy? Insane.

[Tim Pedersen]

I listen to a lot of ringer podcasts and there's probably more than four ad breaks in those. I know I'm pressing the like skip 15 a lot when I'm listening to those. But what's gonna be interesting with what Spotify's doing here is to what extent will this extend beyond just video podcasts, just any kinds of videos? Because at the same time as Spotify's been trying to make this Foray into video, YouTube has very much become a podcasting platform. There was even a story this morning from the Wall Street Journal where they cited some research of a survey of people saying that YouTube's their preferred platform for listening to podcasts, more so than Spotify or Apple podcasts, which really surprised me to see that it overtook both of those.

[Kameka McCoy]

Yeah, it's really interesting to see YouTube kind of corner the market for again, what's supposed to be an audio platform. They've really kind of taken it with. You've got like, call her Daddy and things like that. Being in Joe Rogan's podcast. If I'm not mistaken, Joe Rogan started on YouTube before moving over to Spotify and signing that deal. So which kind of speaks to the idea that, you know how embedded video is becoming in podcasts. So maybe this is a bet that works out for them. I think we'll see as this kind of shakes out.

[Tim Pedersen]

Yeah, yeah. And I know, like for the Digital A podcast and for the other podcasts that we have here at Digital A Media, video for the podcast is something we're exploring more and more. We've started doing it with our sibling publication, Glossy. We're going to be doing it with this podcast in the future, modern retail. So we'll be able to have a much better idea moving forward. But it's also part of this kind of like these little platform wars that are popping up right now. Like as we've been talking about, you have Spotify versus YouTube pretty much. But then on the non video side of things, on the text front, you have X vs Bluesky vs Threads, which has been going on for a while, but seems to have reached a new plateau since the election with we have Threads reporting it had 15 million signups in November, which is a good amount of signups. And it's also an interesting number because Bluesky had reported that it reached the 15 million user mark. So at the same time as Bluesky finally can say it has 15 million users, Threads is saying, eh, we added that in just this month, so we're obviously far surpassed that. But at the same time, Threads announced ads are coming next year and so the monetization possibilities, Meta will be making money. Is Threads going to try to use that as a way to cut some sort of rough shares with creators to incentivize people to be posting Threads more often? Who knows? X has tried that kind of thing.

[Kameka McCoy]

Yeah.

[Tim Pedersen]

What do you make of this, the next Twitter war?

[Kameka McCoy]

It's really been interesting to kind of watch how this plays out, right. Because I would almost give it like a ping pong effect. That's been happening ever since Elon Musk bought X. Twitter, whatever you want to call it, where, you know, something happens with X, advertisers leave, content creators leave. You know, users leave and they explore threads, blue sky, spill, Mastodon, what have you. But I think this is probably the first time that we've seen these kind of numbers just steadily up ticking, you know, throughout the course where it seems like X may, I don't want to say another nail in the coffin, not the final nail in the coffin by any means, but yet another one. Right. Just with all of this happening and it seems like you've got part of the issue, I think with the staying power of these platforms is getting big name content creators, you know, journalists think, thought leaders and things like that, to move to these platforms to get the audience to follow them. I think this is the first time that we've seen some of those people like Don Lemon, Gabrielle Union, a handful of others. The Guardian, like we talked about last week, announcing their departure from X to move to these other platforms, which I think once that starts to happen more frequently, you'll see the audience continue to shift with them.

[Tim Pedersen]

Right. And then the question becomes, do advertisers make that shift to when do they make that shift? And that was a lot of the conversation that we had with Christina and Sarah about this. The post election landscape for marketers and media companies is you have, as you mentioned, the Guardian leaving X. There was a Financial Times story last week in which some ad buyers were saying, talking about clients coming back to X coming out of the election because there's an audience there, as we mentioned, ads coming to Threads next year. So it was just really interesting with all of that as a backdrop, having this conversation with Christina and Sarah and hearing what they're hearing from their sources.

[Kameka McCoy]

Absolutely. Have you set up shop on any of the competing platforms yet?

[Tim Pedersen]

I think I'm on threads just by virtue of having an Instagram account and having clicked one of the threads pop ups and feed once. BlueSky I haven't touched. I've been on X since 2009, but I don't think I've tweeted in three or four years.

[Kameka McCoy]

That's a long time, Tim.

[Tim Pedersen]

Def. I definitely don't think I've tweeted since. Well, I'll be able to fact check myself, but I know I did that like Twitter delete thing where it deletes all the old tweets like that are more than a year old. So I imagine my Twitter profile looks like a bot at this point.

[Kameka McCoy]

I think, you know, as we, as we talk about that movement back and forth and again, this will be brought up in the conversation with Christina and Sarah later in the episode, but I don't know how much longer people are going to hang on for another platform that's being pushed in front of them at this point. You've got a Rolodex, youth. Stay with me here. A Rolodex is something that you twisted for names. It's like a yellow pages. I know you don't know what that is either, but anyways, it's like the.

[Tim Pedersen]

Contacts app on your phone, but you've.

[Kameka McCoy]

Got a plethora of apps to go through. But it'll be a good chat and I'm excited for people to listen to this one.

[Tim Pedersen]

Absolutely. Christina and Sarah, welcome to the podcast. Thanks for joining us.

[Christina Monlos]

Thanks for having us.

[Sara Guaglioni]

Yeah, thank you.

[Tim Pedersen]

Absolutely. We kind of have to have you because last week Kimiko and I had a conversation with Seb Joseph, our executive editor of news. Kind of the initial reaction to the election and what that means for media companies, marketers, agencies, all the companies we cover. It's been a little over a week now and so I think we're hoping, wondering to what extent there's been any new clarity that's kind of come up. Obviously it's still super early. There's still a lot of pieces to fall into place. There's still a whole inauguration a few months from now away, two months from now, away. But Sarah, I'll start with you because you've done some reporting for media companies and just looking at to what extent has there been a Trump bump 2.0 first, Trump administration news sites in particular saw a lot of traffic. And the question with Trump now coming back into power is, is that going to happen again, or is there a bit of burnout? What have you found out so far?

[Sara Guaglioni]

It was obviously a really big traffic day for news sites. In particular for a number of news publishers. It was the most traffic they saw this year the day after the election, which makes sense. Oh, the day of the election. The day after the election, too. Yeah. And I think that's notable to be expected, too. And it sounds like a lot of news publishers were hoping for that, and that did happen. But what's interesting is if you compare it to the election day and the day after the election in 2020, for some of those top news publishers that attracted, like, the most traffic, it was less this time around, this presidential election, than it was in 2020. You know, that's not the case across the board. Like, some publishers, I think, like NBC News, a few others, they actually saw more traffic in 2024 than in 2020. But, yeah, in general, there was a bit less of a bump and definitely less of a sustained traffic surge. There are a number of reasons for that. I think one of the most obvious ones is that the election was called much earlier this time around. If you remember, in 2020, I think the winner of the presidential election wasn't called until, I believe, Saturday. Whereas this time around, by Wednesday morning, we all knew that Donald Trump would be president. And so in some ways, I think that's a bit disappointing for some publishers. Cause there was less of that just crazy news cycle where I remember in 2020, all of us were just constantly checking the needle and all the votes coming in and what that meant. And that just wasn't the case this time, you know, but there's still, obviously, it's going to be a wild news cycle for the next four years, I can imagine. So there's still a lot more to cover. And what's really interesting, something that I noticed was that even though the presidency was called, you know, Donald Trump was named the president a lot earlier this time around, a lot of publishers were using that moment as sort of like marketing. So I noticed in a lot of email outreach communication to readers, like banners on news sites and things like that, asking for readers to subscribe or to donate, join memberships, a lot of that language was about supporting these news outlets at a time when Trump was about to take office. And the language was like, give us money so that you're supporting free speech, which I think is really interesting. And it sounds like it's worked, at.

[Tim Pedersen]

Least for some, because, what was it Slate reported the day after the election? A big jump in subscribers, Paid subscribers?

[Sara Guaglioni]

A few, actually. The Philadelphia Inquirer said it was a really big day for them, too. Vox recently told me the day after the election was the biggest day for new memberships since their membership launch, which.

[Tim Pedersen]

Was only a few months ago.

[Sara Guaglioni]

It just launched in May. Yeah, it did just launch in May. So I guess, again, that should be accepted. But, you know, I think it's interesting. The Journal said it was Election Day, was four times their monthly average in registrations. Yeah, the Guardian, they had this goal to bring in $2 million by the end of the year. They have this like, end of year fundraiser, basically from readers, and they hit that goal within three weeks. They actually moved up the fundraiser so that it was before the election this year, usually it's a little bit later in November, and they hit their 2 million goal within a couple weeks. And so they doubled it to 4 million now. So, yeah, it seems to be working for some publishers for sure.

[Tim Pedersen]

I'm curious how long that keeps up because you mentioned MSNBC seeing really high traffic the day after the election. But then this week, MDSNBC for its traditional TV news broadcasts, viewership's actually been down for them. New York Times has the story up where they cite numbers from Nielsen showing that for the Rachel Maddow show, her show on this most recent Monday. So the Monday after the election was actually lower. A million fewer viewers than she averaged in October. And the least watched edition of the show among viewers under the age of 54 since April 2022, to quote the article. So not a great sign. Also, we're talking about traditional tv, so maybe there's some of that, but that seems like a pretty drastic drop already.

[Sara Guaglioni]

Yeah, no, I think that's a great point. Especially you mentioned traditional tv. Traditional news outlets, I think one of their biggest challenges now is to keep people interested because it was a huge breaking news. Who was gonna be the president of the U.S. obviously, people who don't even really read news would be following that story. I think now the biggest challenge is how to keep that audience, and especially how to track people who just don't want to read the news anymore. I think they did it before, and I think maybe even more so now. When Trump was president, before the news cycle was wild, there were all kinds of stories coming out. And I knew even back then a lot of very smart people who were like, I just don't read the news anymore. I can't take it. It's too much. The tone of it is bad. The way that we're talking about each other is just toxic. I can't engage. And I can imagine that that's going to be a really big challenge this time around. The whole trend of news avoidance, especially among younger audiences, has already been a big challenge. And I think with all the craziness that we can kind of expect from both sides of the aisle, I think it's going to be really, really challenging to try to sort of thread the needle there.

[Tim Pedersen]

Yeah. Well, it's also going to be interesting to see how audience behaviors shift even just beyond news consumption. Since the election, there's been a number of people who have deleted their X accounts, including publishers like the Guardian. But Blue sky, which is one of the ex rivals, has seen signups soar since the election. And so, Christina, you talk with a lot of marketers and agency side of things. Are they already trying to adapt to any shifts in audience behavior?

[Christina Monlos]

Yeah, I think there's trying to understand consumer sentiment and there's also like the biggest thing that I've heard from people so far is they're curious if they got it wrong understanding their consumers and if they should be investing in more research and all that sort of thing in the way that a lot of publishers got it wrong. And a lot of, you know, cable.

[Tim Pedersen]

News, the idea that it's going to be a prolonged election result.

[Christina Monlos]

Yeah. And it's like, okay, if they got it wrong in that way, are we getting it wrong in this other way? And I don't think there's anything just yet because it's been a little over a week of like, we're going to move our budget this way or that way just yet. But there is this sense of like, okay, where are we getting it wrong? Where should we be? Who should we be talking to and how should we be talking to them? So I think it's a lot of trying to understand if there's anything they need to change and then we'll see those changes probably in the next couple of weeks.

[Kameka McCoy]

Also, I think what's an interesting play here is that while publishers are kind of leaning into that marketing moment. Right. And wanting to show up in that space, the conversations and wonder if it's the same on your end. Christina from Brands is taking a different approach on the other end of the spectrum, where some of them are looking to tap into humor and be more politically neutral, which is a huge pendulum string from what we saw back in 2020. 2021, right?

[Christina Monlos]

Yeah, for sure. And it's like if they address things at all, it had been like, you know, that calm ad that played on Santa. Yeah, yeah. On CNN that you guys had talked about last time with Seb. And you know, that's like as close as we're going to see for a little while, I think. Unless there are brands that are maybe a little bolder and feel like they can, I don't know, make. Make a lot of those statements. I think. I think as we've seen this pull back in, we're purpose led brands and we care about this. And also the pullback in being so vocal about De and I, what you're going to see and what we've heard is that the brands that have made it, this is part of our DNA, this is part of our ethos, The Patagonias, the Ben and Jerry's of the world, those are the ones that are going to continue and maybe they'll address things in certain ways. I don't know. I mean, you see that Ben and Jerry is in the middle of fighting with Unilever right now, so maybe not. But I think that it's those brands, those few brands that we might see some sort of statements from. But I don't think we're going to see the sort of like 2016 of it. All of these brands being like, oh, you know, we have to come in and we have to take a stand and be this kind of brand because the government is moving this way and we're gonna move that way to really, we're not gonna see that again. That's not happening again.

[Sara Guaglioni]

I feel like what's really interesting about this time around compared to previous presidential elections that involve Trump. Is that exactly what you were just saying, Christina? Which is, I feel like there's more of a hesitancy, I think, for some people to really dive into this in the same way that they did in previous elections. And I think that's because we know now that if you do something like that, you're gonna alienate yourself from a lot of people. I mean, Trump, what, he won the popular vote, right?

[Christina Monlos]

He did, yeah.

[Sara Guaglioni]

And so, yeah, by doing that, I think back then it was like you're taking a stance against something that you don't, you know, support. But now if you were to do that, yeah, you're alienating yourself from so many people. And is it worth the risk? That's why, honestly, I was really surprised when I saw from the publisher side that a lot of publishers were still very vocal in the way, remember the Washington Post hole, democracy dies in darkness, like that kind of language. I was surprised that publishers, a lot of publishers were doing that this time around because I think the risk there is that then it's easy for people to say that this publication, this news outlet in particular, is taking a stand against something political, which the argument is news outlets shouldn't be doing that. And then I think the question is, where do brands stand on that stuff too? Is it worth taking the risk of having this kind of strong language? If you're going to alienate all these.

[Kameka McCoy]

People, well, then don't branch. But for publishers, I think they're going back to Christina's point about the ethos. Right. You're supposed to be part of the free press and, you know, the democracy dies in darkness, I feel like applies not just to WaPo, but a slew of other publications. That's kind of the stance that as a journalist you're supposed to take as a brand. If that's not your ethos, I don't know who wouldn't be a brand. With a democracy dies in darkness ethos. As a brand, I think the bigger ethos is to make money. Right. Which, you know, from the conversations that I'm having, the play is to be to show up in the white space of news programming. Right. As a kind of like, you need a break from the news. Here, here, here we are, right? Spend your money with us. Be happy. Forget about the world's troubles.

[Christina Monlos]

Yeah. I think it's also the thing is with 2016 and how a lot of brands reacted, how a lot of news publishers reacted. When Trump was initially elected, it was okay. We think this is worst case scenario. This is going to go, how this is going to go. I think there was a lot of really reactionary responses that we saw that were appealing to one slice of the nation this time around. It's these marketers, they have been through it before. They know what a Trump presidency looks like. They have something to look back on, to be like, oh, okay, here's how things went for us. Here's how whatever was successful with targeting and speaking to consumers in this sort of way. And so they can look back on that. And that is the sentiment I've gotten from people, from talking to people. It's like, there are a lot of questions. There are a lot of, like, oh, what does this mean for TikTok? Like, you know, as we'll address, should I be investing in X again? Like, there's, there are a lot of those questions, but there isn't the like, oh my gosh, like what will happen then? Like, I mean, there's still a lot of questions, but it's like, you know, they've been through it before. They have that to look back on.

[Tim Pedersen]

I think reactionary is a really good word for what's going on. And reactionary in kind of a different sense of the word of brands going back to being apolitical entities. Because I think a lot of it is they don't want to alienate potential customers. These are companies in the business of making money. It's the whole Michael Jordan quote of Republicans buy shoes to. But then I think there's also a concern of not wanting to poke the bear because Trump, based on his nominations that he's made this week for Cabinet, seems like he could get very aggressive with this new administration. So Disney had their earnings call and on all these companies earnings calls right now, obviously the new administration's coming up and what does that mean for the company? Because investors and investor analysts want to make their stock picks based on future earnings potential. Bob Iger, CEO of Disney, who has been very vocal of Trump and very pro liberal, Disney's been pretty liberal in its dealings, dodged all of that in the Disney earnings call, which seems to indicate, okay, Disney doesn't want to poke the bear. Disney doesn't want to say anything that's going to get this new administration and its various departments coming after companies to effectively penalize them for taking political stances. I imagine that's carrying out across the board right now or at least leading to a lot of brands just not taking any sort of stance.

[Christina Monlos]

Yeah, absolutely. And it's also for the few brands that may have poked the bear last time, it's like, you know, I think those are all, I don't know, it's like there's a fear of what could happen and it's not. Some of that fear is not even tied to what happened during the Trump administration, but what's been happening during the Biden administration. I think everyone is sick of talking about Bud Light and that like one influencer post. But I do think that for a lot of brands where it was like, oh, you know, this one small thing that we did, it can have a massive impact on us and it can, you know, trickle down to people even harassing the people who work on our marketing. I don't know, a lot of brands have turtle shelled and that's, I guess it also brings up the question of like, okay, we had this moment of a lot of like purpose led brands where they were taking a stand and they were doing a thing and like, did that even do much for them? Do people want that kind of thing from brands? Like, say what you will about, you know, these brands and like, the way that they went about it or anything like that, but I think you do have to step back and be like, do people even want to hear any of that stuff from brands? And it seems like the answer to that question is no.

[Tim Pedersen]

Or at least not enough. Or answering yes to it.

[Christina Monlos]

Yeah, yeah. Or at least like, you know, I think it's like you alienate some people who don't want that from brands. And then the people who you are trying to appeal to are like, well, you're a brand. Like, the way that you're showing up is clearly not enough. And like, you know, we exist in a capitalist society and like, you're a brand and that's terrible. So.

[Tim Pedersen]

Or it's just like, you have your brand, you have a purpose, but your product is still up, you know, 50% in price four years ago. So, like, right now.

[Sara Guaglioni]

Yeah. Or even as a consumer, I mean, it's so disappointing when you like, find out that the company of like the can of beans you really like is, you know, doesn't align with your politics. You're like, man, I just really like those beans. Like, I almost wish I didn't know. Can of know. I just want to buy my beans.

[Christina Monlos]

I think that's the funny thing is like, you know, the talking point out of this election has been like, low information voter, blah, blah, blah. But I guess there is a part of like existing as a human being in this, this time period where we're all inundated with so much information where it's like, okay, yes. Do you even want to know if your can of beans are like messed up in some way? Like, I don't know. I don't know. I think there's maybe with brands sometimes people are going to be more. I want to be low information.

[Kameka McCoy]

Yeah. I also wonder if some bland. Blands. Some brands are playing it straight because.

[Christina Monlos]

Blands is good.

[Kameka McCoy]

I wonder if some bland slash brands stand up, stand to benefit because a new administration that may be lax on corporate regulations and things like that, you start talking about mergers and accusation. I'm tongue twisted today. Murders and acquisitions, there will be accusations. That's because I'm thinking about beans.

[Tim Pedersen]

Kamika, I think you're just like extremely on point at the moment between bland and mergers and accusations.

[Kameka McCoy]

Mergers and acquisitions. Excuse me. If you've got an administration that's lacks on that type of thing. Right. I would imagine that again, you'd have a brand that would want to be quiet because they stand to benefit from being in that space. And there's a, there's a handful of them that are on the table. Earlier in March, Campbell's closed the deal with Sovos and Rails. We just wrote about that. Kalanova and Mars and I think there's one more coming up with. How do you pronounce their C and PepsiCo. I'm going to butcher that name.

[Christina Monlos]

Yeah, yeah. C Foods.

[Tim Pedersen]

There's also like Wall Street Journal just had an event where they had, I think it was like primarily marketing execs speaking. And so like the president of JetBlue was talking there. Trump administration naturally came up and the president of JetBlue was saying, well, if there's more lax regulation, that'll be good for us. And they were talking about how, I guess Biden's policies, being pro consumer, were more burdensome for airlines like JetBlue. And so then the idea being more lax regulation than JetBlue can be more customer friendly. The idea that pro consumer regulations made a company less customer friendly and could like those pro consumer protections going away, making the company more customer friendly doesn't quite add up in my mind. But this was an executive who basically was acknowledging like less regulation, better for the business. So we're going to take it.

[Kameka McCoy]

Did Boeing happen to be in that room? I think there may have been a lesson learned there had they been.

[Christina Monlos]

I love when executives are able to make those points where it's like, wait, what, what do you actually mean? How, how are you so media trained that you're able to get there and like put those sentences together? It's, it's kind of lovely.

[Tim Pedersen]

But it does seem like businesses are very much operating at least at the moment of there's an opportunity here for our businesses to benefit from the new administration. Let's not rock the boat. That being said, there are businesses who seem like they're about to have their boats rocked. Trump has nominated Robert F. Kennedy Jr. To be Health and Human Services Secretary. RFK Jr. In the past has said he wants to ban pharmaceutical brands from being able to advertise on tv. That's a lot of money that would get eliminated from the TV ad market.

[Christina Monlos]

It's a lot of money not only for, as you were saying, for the networks, but it's also a lot of money for ad agencies and holding companies in their various healthcare units and for these pharmaceutical companies. I think the thing that I've heard from people so far because I've been trying to talk to people about this for potential marketing briefing and what I've heard so far, other than the no, we will not touch that with a ten foot pole, not even off the record has been okay. So much of the pharmaceutical advertising in recent years hasn't really addressed any of the like the push back against like Big Pharma and like hasn't found a way to thread that needle or have that brand narrative or any of that sort of stuff. And so, you know, the people I've talked to have been like, they need to do more storytelling. Which is like, do they? I mean, is that really. But you know, I think it's an interesting point where if you are letting a lot of this skepticism about whether or not this, you know, vaccine or whatever it is is effective or you know, a lot of these things that people are really scared of and you know, there's been a lot of conversation about Big Pharma that Big Pharma doesn't really address. So should they be trying to address that in some way while they can? I don't know.

[Tim Pedersen]

It's going to be interesting because like, again, that's a lot of money that gets taken off the table. To your point, like does is that money that gets taken away from agencies as well or is it money that just gets redirected? Where could it get redirected? As someone who covers TV streaming and video, and this is the dumbest thing I could possibly say, but it will get really interesting what becomes the definition of TV in that point? Does that include connected TV? Does that include YouTube? Will I finally get my answer to whether YouTube is TV or is not TV because of RFK Jr. Banning pharmaceutical advertisers on TV, which would be so stupid, but there are plenty of stupid things going on.

[Kameka McCoy]

No, it's a really good point because even when you think about from like the publisher point of view, right, how platforms and Zuckerberg just refuses to title themselves as a publisher for those same reasons.

[Christina Monlos]

Everything's too murky.

[Tim Pedersen]

It's too murky and just going to get murkier, right?

[Christina Monlos]

Absolutely.

[Sara Guaglioni]

Exactly.

[Tim Pedersen]

Yeah. Because it's like, okay, if you ban pharmaceutical advertisers from advertising on tv, it feels like there's some line to then be drawn from forcing advertisers to advertise on X and the whole Garm lawsuit and all of that. Like it just. Not that like contradictions can exist because they obviously very much do exist, but those seem so directly contradictory that I have to imagine there will be lawsuits. Then again, Matt Gaetz is going to be Attorney General, so I don't know where that gets you.

[Christina Monlos]

I guess I just wonder if it ends up where Big Pharma is. It's not just tv, but it ends up in the same way of Big Tobacco, where that advertising is just not anywhere anymore. And then what does that really mean?

[Tim Pedersen]

Yeah, if you have platforms preemptively, then saying, okay, we're also going to ban pharma because we don't want to catch the ire of RFK Jr. Or other parts of the administration for allowing pharma advertisers or being the new home.

[Christina Monlos]

The one thing that we have heard so far that seems pretty consistent is that CMOs and agency execs are trying to figure out, okay, we're seeing who Trump is appointing in these positions. What should we be doing? How should we be thinking about this to maybe like, you know, get them to like us a little more, not or not have issue with us in some way. And I think that's where, as you were saying, like, you know, the potential for advertisers to go back to X because of Elon Musk's connection to. To Trump. I did speak to one CMO who was like, oh, because of the results of the election and because of the way that Trump campaign was run, I'm interested in advertising on X. And it was less about getting favor with the administration and more about how that campaign was run was interesting to me because they had a lot of ads on X. And he was thinking about the audiences to target and who he should be going after and saying he might, you know, try a little bit of a test on X because of that, which I don't know, was interesting. It might be an anomaly, it might not be. I haven't heard it from anyone else so far. But, yeah, I guess it's like the. The one thing we have heard from people is like, okay, we're trying to figure out who in the new administration, you know, has these points of view and, like, what does that mean for my brand and how should I be thinking about this? I mean, aside from the pharmaceutical stuff, there has been this sense of, like, RFK is really against seed oils. If my brand has seed oils in it, should I be thinking about that? Beef tallows, real big, raw milk. What could all of that mean? It's all very speculative, but people are asking those questions about some, you know, some of some of these things, and it's. I don't know that Seems different this time.

[Sara Guaglioni]

Yeah. It also makes me think about sort of where audiences are going to go too. Right. Like, we saw sort of a pullback from X over the years, even from publishers like npr, the Guardian. But, you know, with Trump coming into office, with Elon Musk's sort of role in politics these days, is X going to see a boost in users coming onto the platform, an engagement on the platform? Is Trump going to use X in the way that he did during his presidency last time, where, you know, it was really his way to communicate with the nation in a lot of ways. Right. Very directly. Are we going to see that again? What does that mean for news publishers, too? The Guardian took one way of handling it, which was to say that it's a toxic place. We want nothing to do with it, though.

[Tim Pedersen]

It didn't delete its account. Right. Which I thought was interesting.

[Sara Guaglioni]

Interesting, yeah. And I think it's. Reporters are still there. Right. I think at the end of the day, it's still useful for some journalists. But I'm curious about other, you know, I've reached out to, oh, I don't know, maybe like two dozen publishers at this point to ask them if they're thinking about leaving the platform too, for similar reasons that the Guardian outlined. Still kind of waiting to work on that story. I haven't heard much yet. I think, you know, everyone very much is saying it's still early days. I think there are a lot of conversations happening behind the scenes as to how publishers are going to cover this administration, what kind of distribution platforms and channels are going to be really putting resources into. And I think a lot of that will sort of come to light as we see where people are going.

[Kameka McCoy]

Right.

[Sara Guaglioni]

Which platforms they're going to. We already kind of saw that during this election. I mean, the fact that traditional news outlets weren't getting the same kind of traffic. A big reason for that, at least people have told me, is because people are getting their news from different places. Right. We know the story, social media, video, audio, you know, it's just a very different time than it was in 2016. Right.

[Kameka McCoy]

I think it'll be interesting to see how brands follow audiences for, like, social listening purposes and things like that. Because, like, fragmentation was already happening pre this election and I feel like it's increasing even further. Right. And then in January, you've got the, you know, the TikTok ban back on the table. So if X, the town square, you know, is no longer considered a brand safe space and then. And people have flocked away from it. And then on top of that, you've got TikTok, which is potentially getting banned, you know, lawsuits and whatnot. It'll take a while, but that also was a town square that's no longer on the table. Where then do you find your audiences? If you go to Blue sky, that may be a very different audience than what you found on Thread. So how do you then create, you know, a compelling narrative to God knows how many audiences across platforms?

[Tim Pedersen]

Yeah. Although it's interesting because it seems like a lot of the reports in the past week have been that Trump is going to try to reverse the divestment order against TikTok, so that TikTok is cool. And there was even a story in the information about how TikTok's been trying to court conservatives over the past year, which would obviously help its case. And now with the X thing, it's just like. I think there was something I saw speculative, but just, like, does X acquire Truth Social?

[Christina Monlos]

And, like, I see that Truth Social. Yeah. And I think that's really funny. But it's also, I guess with the, like, Truth Social Twitter thing, you know, the one thing I'm thinking about with, like, 2016 and, you know, to 2020 was how quickly Trump would have someone in office working with him, make it seem like this person's really important, and then they were gone so fast. And I guess I just wonder with, like, this time around making all of these, like, investments or thoughts about, you know, how these different particular people who are, you know, potentially part of the administration, are feeling about different things, like, how long will they actually be around? How long will Elon Musk be Trump's buddy and have that and have X be important? I don't know. I don't think we can assume it'll be the full term. I'll be surprised if it is. But, you know, I don't know. It would definitely be interesting if Truth Social and X were to merge. For sure.

[Tim Pedersen]

Interesting is a word for, well, all of this.

[Christina Monlos]

I mean. I mean, I don't know. It's like if you. If you still spend time on X, which I do. I don't know. It feels like you're served a lot of maybe what would still be on? Or, like, what would be more likely to be on Truth Social sometimes, Which may be a bold statement, but I don't know. Yeah. I will say on the TikTok front of things, one CMO I was talking to last week said that it did have them thinking about, okay, what does this mean for TikTok is this a little more breather for TikTok? Should we be investing a little bit more there? So, again, all speculative.

[Tim Pedersen]

Yeah, everything's up in the air as it feels like it's been for a very long time anyways, so. But Christina, you both coming on the show to help Kimiko and I wrap our heads around what's going on and what may go on as we head into the new year.

[Kameka McCoy]

Yeah.

[Sara Guaglioni]

Thanks so much for having us.

[Christina Monlos]

Yeah, thanks for having us. Yeah. Sorry to have an American accent be part of things. I was listening to last week's episode and I was like, oh man, yes. Seb's accent is so nice and such a breather. And I was like, ah, well, I'll be an American coming back.

[Sara Guaglioni]

It's fine.

[Tim Pedersen]

I can't help it.

[Sara Guaglioni]

Everything sounds smarter with a British accent, right?

[Christina Monlos]

Absolutely.

[Tim Pedersen]

Thanks for listening to this episode of the Digiday Podcast. If you enjoyed it, please leave us a rating and a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you're listening. Get more from Digiday with our daily newsletters sent out each weekday morning. Visit digidaire.comnewsletters to sign up.