Google’s Third-Party Cookie U-Turn + WTF are JBPs with Exverus Media’s Hillary Kupferberg

Summary

The Digiday Podcast: In-Depth Summary of "Google’s Third-Party Cookie U-Turn + WTF are JBPs with Exverus Media’s Hillary Kupferberg"

Release Date: April 29, 2025
Hosts: Kamika McCoy & Tim Peterson
Guest: Hillary Kupferberg, VP of Performance Marketing at Exverus Media

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Introduction

In this episode of The Digiday Podcast, hosts Kamika McCoy and Tim Peterson delve into two pivotal topics shaping the media and marketing landscape: Google's unexpected reversal on third-party cookies and the evolving role of Joint Business Plans (JBPs) in retail media. The conversation provides listeners with insightful analysis, expert opinions, and actionable takeaways relevant to brands, agencies, and publishers navigating the digital age.

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Google’s Third-Party Cookie U-Turn: A Game Changer

Overview of the U-Turn

The episode opens with a significant announcement from Google: after years of stating the deprecation of third-party cookies in its Chrome browser, the tech giant has reversed its stance, allowing these cookies to persist indefinitely. This reversal marks a critical shift in digital advertising strategies worldwide.

Tim Peterson [03:25]: "Google said, actually no, never mind, forget it, we're not going to do it."

Implications for the Industry

The hosts discuss the far-reaching implications of this decision. For five-plus years, the marketing industry had been preparing for a cookieless future, developing alternative ID solutions and exploring non-first-party data opportunities. Google's U-turn disrupts these plans, creating both confusion and opportunities.

Kamika McCoy [03:45]: "Could you imagine spending five years building out alternative ID solutions... to my point, earlier retail media, that's like one of their huge talking points of like we've got, you know, treasure trove data only for Google to then turn around and be like, actually."

Impact on Ad Tech and Publishers

The reversal affects various stakeholders differently. Ad tech companies that invested heavily in cookieless solutions may face setbacks, while publishers that saw reduced CPMs due to cookies being disabled in browsers like Safari and Firefox might experience a slight recovery.

Tim Peterson [06:31]: "There's still a need for cookieless solutions in the marketplace... It becomes this big question of like is the industry just going to revert back to 2019?"

Google's Position and Potential Losses

Despite the anticipated benefits for some, the conversation highlights potential downsides for Google. Maintaining third-party cookies amidst internal and external pressures could tarnish Google's reputation and entangle it further in antitrust issues.

Kamika McCoy [07:33]: "The biggest loser may very well here be Google because they're left holding the bag and bad PR and legal headaches."

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Antitrust Concerns and Potential Buyers for Chrome

Antitrust Litigation and Remedies

The discussion transitions to ongoing antitrust lawsuits against Google, specifically focusing on its dominance in the search and ad tech sectors. A recent verdict found Google liable, prompting the U.S. Justice Department to consider remedies, including the potential sale or spin-off of Chrome.

Tim Peterson [07:33]: "Google has lost both, as we talked about last week on the ad tech side... Google has to sell off or spin off its Chrome browser."

Interested Buyers Enter the Arena

Notable suitors like OpenAI and Perplexity have expressed interest in acquiring Chrome. These companies, leaders in AI-driven search technologies, see browser ownership as a strategic move to integrate their platforms deeper into users' digital experiences.

Tim Peterson [09:02]: "These AI platforms are already kind of heirs to the throne of search... OpenAI and Perplexity see a path for a similar, similar playbook."

Valuation and Market Impact

Estimations suggest Chrome could be valued at up to $50 billion, as per Gabriel Weinberg, CEO of DuckDuckGo. This potential sale underscores the browser's significant role in the digital ecosystem and its influence on internet usage patterns.

Tim Peterson [10:03]: "...Chrome could be worth up to $50 billion. So a lot of money."

Future Outlook

The hosts ponder the future of Google's involvement in the open web. Even with the reversal on third-party cookies, Google's dominance in the browser market continues to pose challenges for competitors and regulators alike.

Kamika McCoy [12:21]: "Google just made this whole mess and now the rest of the industry is going to have to clean it up."

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Live Stream Announcement: Discussing the Fallout

Kamika and Tim announce an upcoming live stream titled "Bold Call," scheduled for April 30 at 1 PM Eastern on Digiday's LinkedIn page. The session will feature Seb Joseph, Digiday's Executive News Editor, and Ronan Shields, Senior Ad Tech Reporter, as they dissect the fallout from Google's cookie reversal and explore the future of Chrome.

Tim Peterson [13:28]: "We'll be doing the bold call live stream on LinkedIn on the Digiday LinkedIn page at 1pm Eastern on April 30th."

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Understanding Joint Business Plans (JBPs) in Retail Media

Introduction to JBPs with Hillary Kupferberg

In the latter half of the episode, Kamika interviews Hillary Kupferberg, VP of Performance Marketing at Exverus Media, to shed light on JBPs—a critical yet often misunderstood component in retail media strategies.

Kamika McCoy [19:38]: "We're talking about JBPs, which I felt needed to be defined."

Defining JBPs

Hillary explains that JBPs, or Joint Business Plans, are strategic agreements between brands (or agencies) and media partners aimed at aligning on mutual business growth objectives. These agreements go beyond mere ad spend commitments, encompassing broader strategic collaborations.

Hillary Kupferberg [19:48]: "JBP is a joint business partnership... a contract between brands, sometimes agencies, and our media partners to align on our strategic partnerships."

JBPs in Retail Media Networks (RMNs) vs. Traditional Media

The conversation highlights the unique aspects of JBPs within RMNs compared to traditional media agreements. In retail media, JBPs often integrate product distribution, shelf placement, and promotional activities alongside media investments, making them more complex and multi-faceted.

Hillary Kupferberg [22:50]: "The true difference... spans multiple stakeholders and is especially for those endemic brands who are sold in those retailers."

Key Components and Negotiables in JBPs

Hillary outlines the various elements that can be negotiated within a JBP, including spend commitments, preferred access to new products or data, measurement tools, and flexibility clauses. She emphasizes the importance of adaptability and transparency in these agreements.

Hillary Kupferberg [27:19]: "But the benefits and insider ideas of what can be added is preferred access... priority... added value in terms of measurement."

Flexibility and Agility in Agreements

Given the volatile market conditions, flexibility within JBPs is paramount. Hillary discusses strategies for incorporating flexibility, such as tiered spend levels that unlock additional benefits as investment grows, allowing brands to adapt to changing economic landscapes without being overly constrained.

Hillary Kupferberg [32:18]: "This is top priority for so many brands and media buyers and marketers today... structuring around unlocks at different spend tiers."

Maximizing Value Through Creative Investments

To maximize the benefits of JBPs, Hillary advises brands to adopt a holistic approach to their media investments, leveraging existing budgets across different channels and platforms. This "double dipping" strategy ensures that every dollar spent contributes to multiple facets of the partnership's growth objectives.

Hillary Kupferberg [34:44]: "We have to get creative... double dipping... immense opportunity."

Ensuring Accountability and Mutual Growth

Effective JBPs hinge on mutual accountability and a shared vision for growth. Hillary stresses the importance of aligning business objectives from both sides and maintaining open communication channels to navigate uncertainties collaboratively.

Hillary Kupferberg [41:14]: "There has been a lot of openness and understanding of why different flexibility is needed... ensuring there is accountability and commitments for joint benefits."

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Conclusion

This episode of The Digiday Podcast offers a comprehensive exploration of two critical areas impacting the media and marketing sectors: the unforeseen reversal of Google's third-party cookie policy and the nuanced role of JBPs in retail media networks. With expert insights from Hillary Kupferberg and thoughtful analysis from hosts Kamika McCoy and Tim Peterson, listeners gain a deeper understanding of these dynamic developments and their implications for the future of digital marketing.

For further discussions and real-time analysis, be sure to tune into the upcoming "Bold Call" live stream on April 30th, where the hosts and industry experts will continue to dissect these evolving stories.

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Notable Quotes:

• Tim Peterson [03:25]: "Google said, actually no, never mind, forget it, we're not going to do it."
• Kamika McCoy [03:45]: "Could you imagine spending five years building out alternative ID solutions... treasure trove data only for Google to then turn around and be like, actually."
• Hillary Kupferberg [19:48]: "JBP is a joint business partnership... a contract between brands, sometimes agencies, and our media partners to align on our strategic partnerships."
• Hillary Kupferberg [27:19]: "But the benefits and insider ideas of what can be added is preferred access... priority... added value in terms of measurement."
• Hillary Kupferberg [34:44]: "We have to get creative... double dipping... immense opportunity."

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Stay informed and ahead of the curve with The Digiday Podcast, your weekly source for the big stories and issues that matter to brands, agencies, and publishers in the digital landscape.

Transcript

[Kamika McCoy]

Foreign. Hello, hello, and welcome to another episode of the Digiday Podcast, a show about the business of media and marketing. I'm Kamika McCoy, senior marketing reporter here at Digiday.

[Tim Peterson]

And I'm Tim Peterson, executive editor of video and audio Digiday Media.

[Kamika McCoy]

Tim, this time next week, we'll be in Palm Springs, California, fighting for our life in the weather, but also having some really interesting conversations about programmatic Marketing. What are you most excited about? Are you ready? Have you packed?

[Tim Peterson]

I'm weirdly excited for the cookie conversation because it finally feels like something new to talk about, which is the cookies, doggon oil, which we're going to be getting to talking about in just a bit in the Juicy scoop section because that's really the biggest story of the past week, it feels like. But, yeah, I'm excited to be in Palm Springs for the DJ Programmatic Marketing Summit. So we're going to have a lot of folks from brand and agency executives who are interested, interested in Programmatics. So again, the cookie's gonna come up, but it'll also just be hopefully nice to be in, you know, the warm weather out in the desert. I'm not the biggest desert person. I prefer the ocean. But it'll be a nice change of scenery. It'll be fun to see you. We haven't seen each other since what DPMS last year would have been last year.

[Kamika McCoy]

Yeah, we have a annual coming together on stage at D. @ DPMS. That's that.

[Tim Peterson]

How about you? What are you excited about with DPMs?

[Kamika McCoy]

Yeah, I feel. I mean, to your point, I feel like we finally got something new to talk about. And then on my end, you know, I've been covering retail media and there's, you know, a bigger conversation about programmatic showing up in that space. So I'm excited to have some conversations about what's new happening here. Not that we need anything new happening. Please slow the news cycle down. But you get what I'm saying, right?

[Tim Peterson]

And retail media, I mean, that comes up in the conversation you had for this episode for the featured segment, right?

[Kamika McCoy]

Yes, yes. So later on in this episode, I actually had the chance to talk to Hillary Kupferberg, who is the VP of Performance Marketing at X for US Media, about jbps. That godforsaken acronym has come up in my reporting a lot. So it's a term that I felt needed to be defined. It stands for Joint Business Plan. And Hillary has a ton of experience in that space and did a really good job of walking us through and Giving us the rundown, answering all the ins and outs of what marketers need to know here. So excited to have that conversation. But first, to your point, we do have a couple of big news items on the Google front.

[Tim Peterson]

Yeah. So first one, what was it last Tuesday? So hours after the last episode went out, Google announces. Hey everyone, I know we've been talking about deprecating third party cookies in Chrome since January 2020. I know we pushed back that timeline a couple times and then I know last year we said actually we're not going to fully deprecate third party cookies, but we are going to give people the choice to disable third party cookies in our Chrome browser. Fast Forward now to April 2025. Google said, actually no, never mind, forget it, we're not going to do that. I know there's been a lot of hemming and hawing for going on five plus years now. A lot of preparations for this cookie less world everything. Psych. We're not gonna do it.

[Kamika McCoy]

Could you imagine spending five years building out alternative ID solutions looking for, you know, non first party data opportunities. To my point, earlier retail media, that's like one of their huge talking points of like we've got, you know, treasure trove data only for Google to then turn around and be like, actually.

[Hillary Kupferberg]

We.

[Tim Peterson]

Don'T have to imagine we're gonna be with a bunch of people next week at DPMS who that was their reality for the past five years. Now I imagine a good number of those people are going to be like, nah, I was kind of expecting Google to do this the whole time. That's why we were kind of half assing our cookie list preparations. All of those people, they were right. They were, a lot of folks were right. I remember at, I think it was our December 2023 Programmatic Marketing Summit for Digiday in New Orleans and Carell Cooper specifically I asked a bunch of people the question like do you think Google's gonna, you know, go through with this? Because at that point it was December 2024 was like the deadline or is by the end of 2024 and he's like no, it's not happening.

[Kamika McCoy]

Yeah.

[Tim Peterson]

Karel, if you're listening to this shout out to you because you're dead on.

[Kamika McCoy]

Yeah. To your point, like I almost wonder if the same way that we're seeing like TikTok ban fatigue set in, right? If the fatigue for Google Chromes, will they or won't they third party cookies, if that fatigue set in a long time ago because even like last July there was the announcement that they wouldn't be deprecating the third party cookie. And to your point, leave it up to choice. And when I would talk to marketers about it, if I had to take a shot for every time they sighed at me asking them that question, I'd be obliterated because there was just so much apathy around it. Because there have been this back and forth for so long. Do you think that we have finally marked the end of the saga?

[Tim Peterson]

Oh God, I would love that. But no, absolutely, absolutely freaking not. Because here's the thing, what happens now is third party cookie gets to stick around. In Chrome, Safari, Firefox, those are still cookieless environments. Also, you've had enough people at this point who have adopted whether it's alternative IDs like LiveRamp's RAMP ID, the Trade Desk, Unified ID 2.0 or Cookieless Solutions. Like Meredith has built a whole business around decipher its contextual targeting tool, which is, I don't know that it's entirely cookieless, but it's cookieless in a way. So there's still a need for cookieless solutions in the marketplace, if only because the there's such an issue on the Safari and Firefox side where like in Safari because you don't have third party cookies, what publishers have seen is the CPMs they're getting for their inventory there are 30% lower than what they're getting in Chrome where third party cookies do exist. And so it becomes this big question of like is the industry just going to Revert back to 2019?

[Kamika McCoy]

Exactly.

[Tim Peterson]

Where you have cookies in some places, don't have cookies in others and there is very much a divide in halves or have not. It just, it feels like Google just made this whole mess and now the rest of the industry is going to have to clean it up.

[Kamika McCoy]

Yeah, I will say we had our executive news editor Seb Joseph and other editors from Digiday staff put together a really good look at kind of the winners and the losers of the third party reversal. While there were losers by way of like publishers and some of the ad tech, like alternative id, ad tech cottage that had been built, built itself out around this, right? The biggest loser may very well here be Google because they're left holding the bag and bad PR and legal headaches and like their privacy sandbox that never really went anywhere. You know, it's not a great look on Google's behalf here. And then you know, they're still in the position of having to sell off Chrome in all of this potentially potentially Potentially.

[Tim Peterson]

Potentially, yeah. So that's like part of the thing is Google's decided, okay, we're going to keep third party cookies in Chrome. But the other big news story of the past week is is Google going to actually keep Chrome though? So there was. For anyone who, you know, maybe needs a quick refresher, last year there was the verdict in the Justice Department's search antitrust lawsuit against Google. Yes. There are two antitrust lawsuits that have been filed against Google. One on the search front, one on the ad tech front. Google has lost both, as we talked about last week on the ad tech side as part of the. So last Monday the like, hearing started about, okay, what should be the remedies? Like, Google lost the antitrust search antitrust lawsuit. What now, how does this get fixed? One of the remedies that the Justice Department, the US Justice Department is looking for is for Google to have to sell off or spin off its Chrome browser, which is not significant. Part of its business out Chrome browser is free, but it's also has a majority market share of the browser market, I believe globally. Obviously it plays a big role in the ad market because of this cookie stuff that we just talked about. So it's a pretty valuable property. And this past week we've seen a couple suitors step up and being like, look, Google, if you got to get rid of Chrome, like, we could take it off your hands for you.

[Kamika McCoy]

Which I guess to your point, the saga's not over. It just enters us into a new chapter.

[Tim Peterson]

Yep. Yeah. Because, I mean, so the two that were the most vocal this past week were OpenAI and Perplexity. So the owner of ChatGPT and then Perplexity, which, you know, has its own AI platform and these AI platforms are already kind of heirs to the throne of search in a way where, like the idea of people using ChatGPT to search for information like they would have previously on Google, using Perplexity to similarly search for information, especially news information or, you know, recipes, content information, things like that. So given that Google started in search, eventually got into the browser market, it seems like OpenAI and Perplexity see a path for a similar, similar playbook.

[Kamika McCoy]

I don't know if you've heard anything, but I'd be curious. I, I imagine that this is going to be a pricey deal given how significant Chrome is. You know, should a deal be struck. How, how much do you think we're talking here?

[Tim Peterson]

I see in our show Notes, our producer Sarah Patterson put Gabriel Weinberg, who's the CEO of DuckDuckGo which is another search engine that launched its own browser, testified that he believes Chrome could be worth up to $50 billion. So a lot of money. OpenAI and perplexity may need to raise another couple funding rounds to afford that. Maybe they have that money, but they're. As far as I know, neither of those companies are profitable. But this could help with the path to profitability depending on what revenue they would look to reap from Chrome. Because that's the thing is like Google doesn't really get direct revenue from Chrome. It's just Chrome puts it in a very advantageous position for the rest of its businesses, which is, you know, tying is kind of the legal term for that, which is where Google has run into these issues of tying its various businesses together and then effectively inviting these antitrust lawsuits for anti competitive practices. And so OpenAI could just make ChatGPT like the default search engine.

[Kamika McCoy]

Yeah.

[Tim Peterson]

Inside of Chrome, I don't know how advantageous that would actually be. But having a browser, as both Google and Apple have shown with some of Apple's changes like Intelligent tracking Prevention, which was its move to remove third party cookies from its browser. Browsers are really powerful central entities in the particularly web industry obviously because that's how people access the web. So even if there isn't a direct line to revenue, it seems there's a lot of financial upside. Which I guess would be why Gabriel Weinberg from DuckDuckGo would say Chrome. Yeah, I put it at $50 billion. Not a. Not a small chump.

[Kamika McCoy]

Not a small chump. A change at all. But it'll be interesting to see kind of how that shakes out. You know, we've kind of sunset for now, one talking point when it comes to what Google's going to do with Chrome's emphasis on the. What Google's going to do with third party cookies. Emphasis on the word for now.

[Tim Peterson]

Yeah, yeah. I don't know that it's sunset so much as halftime because that was always the thing of okay, Google was going to get rid of third party cookies in Chrome. Then what happens once Google finally does that? Now it's not doing that. It's still this question of what happens, what's the fallout. And so that's going to be something where it. You mentioned Seb Joseph, our executive editor of news, as well as Ronan Shields, senior ad tech reporter at dj. So the three of us are going to have do a live stream, one of our bold call live streams on Wednesday, April 30 on LinkedIn where we're going to be talking about the fallout from Google's cookie reversal, of course, and as well as the potential for what's going to happen with Chrome and kind of this idea of are we seeing Google exiting the open web as part of these things? And so that'll be live streamed on the Digiday LinkedIn page. And for anyone who can't tune into the live stream, It'll be at 1pm Eastern on April 30th. If you aren't able to tune in, we'll have the recording up on the Digiday YouTube channel shortly thereafter.

[Kamika McCoy]

I'm sure this is one of the things that you guys are going to hit on in your conversation, but you know, just us shooting the shit now. Who do you think is the biggest loser from this fallout with Google's reversal and its third party cookies?

[Tim Peterson]

I mean, Seb Ronin and I have spent a lot of time reporting on all these cookie list solutions. What you know, will Google or won't Google? Reading through all this documentation about privacy sandbox, you know, Ronan and I put together, I want to say multiple video WTF videos explaining privacy sandbox proposals. That feels like it's a waste of time now, but obviously I'm being glib when it comes to loser.

[Kamika McCoy]

The biggest loser is the time that I wasted.

[Tim Peterson]

I would love to have that time back. But I think like a lot of people feel similarly. A lot of people have spent a lot of time working on cookie list solutions or figuring out whether to what extent they need to adopt cookie list solutions. And now that time could still be very much worthwhile because those kinds of things, as we mentioned, are needed in Safari and Firefox. But this could also just nullify a lot of that. If you have the people we're going to be spending time with next week in Palm Springs, maybe not them, maybe more so their clients who aren't as invested in the ins and outs of programmatic, who just say like, all right, well third party cookies are sticking around. So like, why do we have to worry about any of these cookie solutions? Like, let's just stick with what we've been doing because that's been working fine. So I think there are, there are a lot of losers.

[Kamika McCoy]

Yeah, there are.

[Tim Peterson]

It's, it's harder to see who the winners are.

[Kamika McCoy]

The only winners that I think here are the people who procrastinated and waited until the very last minute to find, to invest and really take seriously any alternative IDs or test any clean rooms or anything like that, just off the basis of, well you know, Google has been back and forth. Why make myself up in arms about it? I know those people feel very vindicated right now.

[Tim Peterson]

Yeah. No, I would also imagine knowing ad tech folks, the, the ad tech bros, if you will, there have to be some of them that placed like fairly significant bets with one another on whether this was going to happen or not. Now I don't. These people, these are smart people. I don't know to what extent anyone, if someone said, like, hey, I'll bet you $50,000 that Google won't. Yeah, get rid of third party cookies. I don't know that anyone's dumb enough to have taken that bet because that was always very much a possibility. But maybe. And those people would have won out.

[Kamika McCoy]

Yeah. Now that I'm thinking here, even for our own teams, we. We usually do betting on like, is it March Madness that we do? Maybe. I think this is what our bet should have would have been for Digiday. I think this. I probably would have lost, but I do think that we should have made bets on this. Somebody and digiday staff would have made out. Well, someone.

[Tim Peterson]

I'm sure there's some ethical considerations there that we would have had to consider. But yeah, it would have been funny to have like, it would have been very digitized to have an office pool on Google getting rid of third party cookies when or when not.

[Kamika McCoy]

Well, we won't have to end this on a. We'll see because we have now seen, for now, for now, how this shakes out. And you know, for other burning questions, you guys will be on LinkedIn live with a bold call not too far from now. Remind us of when that date and time is.

[Tim Peterson]

Yeah, so we'll be doing the bold call live stream on LinkedIn on the Digiday LinkedIn page at 1pm Eastern on April 30, and then it'll be up on the Digiday YouTube channel shortly thereafter.

[Kamika McCoy]

Fantastic. We'll see you guys there. I know we usually say juicy scoops. We only had a juicy scoop this time, but it was juicy.

[Tim Peterson]

Yeah, we did too, because the cookie change and then like the suitor stepping up for Chrome. So, okay, a couple of juicy scoops. But it also sounds like you have a fairly juicy conversation. Nerdy but juicy conversation about what are you. What is it that you're talking about? Joint business plan.

[Kamika McCoy]

Business plan. It is a very nerdy conversation, but an important one to have. So again, I'm talking later this episode with Hillary Kupferberg, who is the VP of Performance marketing at Express about joint business plans. Really, it's just an explainer and a breakdown of what the hell it is, why we're using it in retail media. And it's essentially it's negotiation process. Right. To be able to strike these retail media deals between agencies, clients or slash marketers and the retail media networks themselves. We talk about what's on the table, what can be negotiated. You know, do you have to sign this in blood or can you put it on a napkin and do a gentleman shake and call it a day? So it was a really, really good conversation. I'm excited for you guys to listen to it.

[Tim Peterson]

Yeah, I'm excited to listen to it because I'm also curious, like to what extent are there force majeure clauses or tariff related clauses? But I'm sure you both get into that in the conversation, so looking forward to it.

[Kamika McCoy]

Thank you. Hello. Hello. And thanks so much for joining the Digiday podcast. Hillary, how are you?

[Hillary Kupferberg]

I'm great. How are you?

[Kamika McCoy]

I'm doing all right. I'm so glad. We've talked many times before and I like to say that we've been in the retail media trenches together. Given it's your full time job, I'm just reporting on it. So I'm really glad that you were able to join me to do our WTF series. I won't repeat what the acronym stands for, but essentially it's the Explainer. And we'll talk a little bit about what the hell JBPs are, how they apply to retail media networks. There's so much happening in the retail media space. I think we are due for an explainer. So thank you so much for joining us for that.

[Hillary Kupferberg]

Of course. And thank you.

[Kamika McCoy]

So I guess we just start at a high level and. Tell me we use the acronym all the time. At least I do in my reporting. But what does it stand for and what is it?

[Hillary Kupferberg]

Definitely we love our acronyms and abbreviations in media. JBP is a joint business partnership. Sometimes it's called a jbpa Joint Business Partnership Agreement. And essentially it is a contract between brands, sometimes agencies, and our media partners to align on our strategic partnerships.

[Kamika McCoy]

Perfect for someone who has never met this acronym. How would you kind of lay that out? In layman's terms, is it just like, you know, a negotiation process?

[Hillary Kupferberg]

Absolutely. A JBP is an overarching term that can encompass many different types of agreements, but most commonly it is either a commitment or an endeavor to spend and invest in media.

[Kamika McCoy]

Got it. So I know that we use JVPs in retail media network deals. Right. I've been reporting on it for a while now. But I mean, are they necessary in retail media networks, deal making or kind of, how are these showing up in deal making? It exclusive to rmns.

[Hillary Kupferberg]

It is not exclusive to rmns. And these are essentially a strategic agreement. And this is something that different parties have over many, many years have had different iterations. So you can think of it as any strategic agreement between two parties in terms of how this comes to life for retail media networks and why it's important and why you may want your media agency in the room for these conversations is it really is about making sure that there is alignment, accountability and a strategic vision for a partnership. And retail media networks are newer in this space and there have for many, many years always been typically with brands, especially endemic brands, retail agreements, sales agreements that has to do with shelf space and distribution and promotion in store. Now it's evolving. And now your media investment with these partners is all part of those negotiations and should be part of those negotiations. Because there are so many benefits from connecting the dots internally within organizations, with your media agencies and for the retailers themselves in terms of evolving and maximizing the partnerships that they're, they're engaging in.

[Kamika McCoy]

You laid out a good lay of the land there, but it begs more questions, right? If JVP deals are struck in other parts of the media business, how is it different when it comes to retail media networks? You touched on it a little bit, but expand on that for me.

[Hillary Kupferberg]

So the true difference and how this is specific to retail media networks versus any other media agreement is there is an element of product on shelf and distribution and two entities that are coming to an agreement around investment and what that investment means needs to align with business growth goals for both sides. So whereas typically a media only JBP is only within a media or a marketing lens, this actually spans multiple stakeholders and is especially for those endemic brands who are sold in those retailers. It's really core to the business. And so JBPs can be structured in many different ways. Sometimes there is hard commitments to spend and invest and partner, and sometimes it's an endeavor to spend. And how each of these agreements is structured is so nuanced to the business and the advertisers and the agencies involved, which I think is the fundamental difference between just a media only jbp.

[Kamika McCoy]

That goes back to your point about the stakeholders, Right? I would imagine that the stakeholders in the room for a JBP process can be varied. So talk to me a little about who's Signing these deals, who's in the room when these deals are being made, who gets a seat at the table?

[Hillary Kupferberg]

Again, it's nuanced. It depends. These can be agency led jbps by media agencies who are connecting and creating new opportunities for additional value from advertiser investment. Or it can be very legacy JBP agreements between brands themselves and the retailers in which their products are distributed in. And then there's the hybrid in the middle where maybe it's an evolution. And in the past, one part of an organization has an agreement with a retailer and the other part of the organization, usually marketing or media, has another investment structure and partnership. And the benefit and a huge opportunity that I see and our clients are benefiting from is when all of those people start to talk to each other and the JBPs are negotiated from multiple stakeholder lenses. We are actually seeing so much value, added value, I should say brought forth in these agreements. And it takes what you know, there some negative, I would say connotations around jbps, especially in the retail space because a lot of them fall under that legacy lens or a have to spend.

[Kamika McCoy]

Yeah.

[Hillary Kupferberg]

And now it's shifting into a benefit and a more positive accelerator of growth. So moving from that transactional, you know, deal with the same parties year over year, it's really thinking about those relationships differently and using those as growth accelerators from a lens of joint strategic goals.

[Kamika McCoy]

I want to, and you have to forgive my corporate speak here, but double click into some of those unlocks and things like that that you were kind of mentioning earlier. I'm almost envisioning this as like everybody dressed in businesswear walking into a big giant boardroom, sitting down at one of those beautiful oak tables. Right. Everybody getting a JVP document to kind of go over. Talk to me about what are the negotiables here? Like what can be negotiated? Is it spend commitments, is it ad offerings? You know, that type of deal?

[Hillary Kupferberg]

I would say everything's on the table. And especially in this world where retail media is constantly evolving and changing. Of course there's the dollars and cents and baseline. Call it table stakes, if you will.

[Kamika McCoy]

Yeah.

[Hillary Kupferberg]

But the benefits and call it insider ideas of what can be added is preferred access. What's new, what's exciting, what's coming down the pipeline, whether that's a format, a data, anything preferred access to those, hand raising for beta opportunities in a similar vein and then addition, it's priority. So it's not just access to it. But do we have first look, are we guaranteed anything? Does this unlock added value in terms of a dollar amount? Does it unlock added value in terms of measurement? There's so many different types of ways that these deals and really it is so nuanced, so it is a little hard to speak broadly about it. But I would say if I was a first timer going into one of these negotiations and it typically is not so formal anymore and it is very much based on evolving relationships and willingness from both sides to level up and to engage in some really important conversations about how to grow business and grow businesses together. So I would say the things that I would always and that I do always negotiate for is flexibility as much as possible. It's really hard in these annual agreements sometimes to commit up front. So any place that there is flexibility to make sure that there is agility throughout the year is always important. Pushing for transparency. So in terms of everything, I would say transparency everywhere is really important. Internal alignment in terms of, you know, structuring the deals to really make sure it is delivering on business and brand objectives and the other thing, I mean I come at this from a media lens and a marketing.

[Kamika McCoy]

Yeah, of course.

[Hillary Kupferberg]

Perspective. So what I say is it, it shouldn't just be media and so connecting the dots, engaging different stakeholders to things. I, I don't know. I think there's a big piece of asking a ton of questions to really understand what the value beyond the dollars in a JVP are and what, what's the bigger goal? Why are we doing this?

[Kamika McCoy]

It almost seems like as I'm listening to you talk, it almost seems like if you look at the legacy JVPs versus how JVPs are showing up now, especially in retail media, is that there's more of a power balance being struck. Right. Versus in the retailers or the media companies as they're kind of positioning themselves to be now, versus the media buyers and the agencies and the brands. Would that be kind of fair to say?

[Hillary Kupferberg]

Definitely. And some of this is being propelled by actual evolution in reporting and the measures in which these legacy gbps are now able to evolve. And in terms of unlocks, it's added areas to accelerate and to differentiate what brands and media partners have been able to come to the table with for many years. Yeah, there are more options, there are more innovative, there are more betas to participate in. The data they can access is more accessible. How we measure, there's more optionality there. So I think the trend will be that it will continue to evolve based on the fundamental evolution of the industries and what brands can commit to and what the media partners are able to bring forth like it really is an ever changing and very much codependent discussion. And I don't think that's always been the case, but there's opportunity to improve.

[Kamika McCoy]

I want to go back to the idea of flexibility. Right. In this idea of like ever changing in retail media networks. I wonder if kind of like we see the next iteration of JBPS becoming more flexible because of economic uncertainty, tariffs and things like that, where you've got advertisers and brands and marketers asking for more flexibility. How flexible Are these JVPs? I know you said they're an annual agreement, but how much flexibility is built in and how much flexibility do you see coming on the. Whenever we get out of this, on the tail end of economic uncertainty in terms of flexibility?

[Hillary Kupferberg]

This is top priority for so many brands and media buyers and marketers today. And I think that's only going to increase in the future given rising and continued uncertainty.

[Kamika McCoy]

Yeah.

[Hillary Kupferberg]

I can't predict the future of what the retail media networks will come back with, but I think they will be responsive to that and can structure agreements in a way that is advantageous and doesn't turn advertisers away from growing these agreements versus being overly cautious. So structuring around unlocks at different spend tiers, that's something that's seen often endeavors to spend. There's really a few different ways in which these agreements can unlock and create incentives to increase the value of these gbps over time without creating fear. And locked in agreements that brands can't grow year over year.

[Kamika McCoy]

If I could backpedal really quickly, you mentioned tiers, explain the tiers to me. Is that like unlocks at different spend levels or what does that mean?

[Hillary Kupferberg]

Exactly. So this is especially helpful when a brand isn't sure what the next year will look like.

[Kamika McCoy]

Okay.

[Hillary Kupferberg]

And if they want to have upfront conversations about added benefits that if they're flat, they're not eligible for in spend, but if they increase by 2%, 5%, 10%, 20%. Right. There is ways to structure the agreements so that that value is unlocked without being on the hook for that spend.

[Kamika McCoy]

Gotcha. Gotcha. In our previous conversations and even, you know, within this conversation, one of the things you talk about is like unlocking and taking advantage of. Talk to me a little bit about how that comes to life. Right. One of the things that I think is like really important that is a hot topic right now is this idea of like retailers are setting themselves up as like full funnel channels. Right. And they're asking for more year over year over year in these JBP deals. So how do you, as an advertiser, as a brand, as a marketer, squeeze that? You've. You're locked in this commitment. How do you squeeze the most out of it?

[Hillary Kupferberg]

It's a challenge. We have to get creative. We have to talk to each other and really look holistically at investment across the board. Something that is a unique opportunity for brands is really understanding the multitude of agreements and investments and seeing where you can combine. And I call it double dipping. But it's actually totally, in this moment, appropriate and almost encouraged because retail media networks are trying to drive adoption and increased investment. So if you run programmatic media with Walmart, that actually can count to your JBP with Walmart. And so now you have two buckets of investment, your retail budgets and your performance budgets that maybe never before spoke to each other or was looked at holistically, but that's one brand spending those dollars. And we're in a moment in which you can garner benefits from Walmart and your programmatic partner trade desk that's powering the Walmart relationship. So there's immense opportunity. And that's just one example. There's a ton of other ways that we can get creative with investments, but thinking holistically about it in a way that organizations are not talking to each other internally about yet is really the opportunity. So another example could be data investment. If I buy Kroger data and I layer Kroger data in our programmatic media buying or display media buying video, however you want to look at it.

[Kamika McCoy]

Mm.

[Hillary Kupferberg]

That investment in Kroger data could count to your Kroger endeavor. Oftentimes that may not be in the first iteration of a JBP conversation.

[Kamika McCoy]

I was just gonna ask that. And that's happening.

[Hillary Kupferberg]

Exactly. And everyone needs to talk and know, where are you investing? And there's so many touch points. In media, we call it like a waterfall. You know, there are so many pieces of your dollar that is spent in media, and of that dollar, you have a data cost, you have a media cost, you have all the costs. And we joke about it all the time. But if you're strategic and smart about it and you talk to different parts of organizations, all of a sudden there's opportunity. So when we talk about creative investment and creative ideas within jbps, it doesn't always require incremental investment.

[Kamika McCoy]

Okay.

[Hillary Kupferberg]

Sometimes brands are already spending this money, and it's the question of, are we leveraging the current investment and future investment to the best of our ability.

[Kamika McCoy]

The sense that I'm getting here is that this is a living document, like it's an annual thing, but at the same time, it seems like a living document that can change and be updated and whatnot. Is that a fair assessment of this?

[Hillary Kupferberg]

Typically they're annual and don't change throughout the year, but they're structured and written in ways that are not 100% prescriptive so that throughout the year there are opportunities to. So it could say. It's hard to talk about it big, but it could say you have X dollars in measurement funds as part of a jbp. Yeah, but it doesn't say who the measurement partner is or when that measurement study is taking place, or what product or what region it'll measure. So that creates opportunity later on to strategically think about, okay, we have X dollars in measurement, what are we trying to to measure in that specific piece? And that could change. And when a brand signs that JVP at one point in time, they may not know that information. But it's intentionally a little bit vague to allow for agility throughout the year because sometimes it's annual. I've seen longer ones, I've seen shorter ones. It really depends on the brand and the retailer.

[Kamika McCoy]

Okay, so if that's the case, right, where there is a little bit of vagueness in these JVPs, how official are these documents? Like, what happens if somebody doesn't fulfill their end of the deal?

[Hillary Kupferberg]

So I mean, as, as with any contract, there's termination clauses, there's confidentiality clauses, there's terms of agreements. From a media perspective, it's subject to IAB standards. There's a ton of caveats in there that my legal team could definitely. And all the legal team, I should say, all the legal teams involved in these documents make sure are sufficient and protective of all parties. But for the most part, it's a mutually agreeable document. So the assumption is that both parties are going to carry out what they commit to or even if it's an endeavor. Right. Because it is all about creating growth. I mean, that's really. At the end of the day, why do you have a gbp? It's about creating a relationship. I mean, it's in the word partnership. And there is a leap of faith involved in a partnership. We live in a world of uncertainty. We live in a world of supply chain realities that are beyond. Most of the people making these decisions and having these conversations are not in the factories or completely able to predict what's going to happen next. Not even in the factories, in the legislation. So again, it depends on the product, depends on the brand, depends on the retailers.

[Kamika McCoy]

Right.

[Hillary Kupferberg]

So the optionality or opportunities for gbps to have to get renegotiated exist. I would say that the past few years, where uncertainty is the status quo, that at least from my perspective and what I've seen, there has been a lot of openness and understanding of why different flexibility is needed. And when things are beyond control and kind of normal business operating assumptions, everyone's here to make something work. Right. Because these are long standing relationships, relationships and partnerships that should propel and exist in the future. And so being overly rigid about some of these are not going to be effective. But it's more about making sure there is accountability and commitments so that there's joint benefits as well.

[Kamika McCoy]

Yeah. And because it's a contract, I would assume like any other contract, it holds up in court. And like any other, any other legal.

[Hillary Kupferberg]

Contract, that's for the legal teams. But yes, absolutely and perfect. They're governed by IAB standard terms. Typically there are caveats in terms of termination, confidentiality, all of that, clauses on clauses.

[Kamika McCoy]

So it's not everybody at the table spitting their hand and say, this is an agreement. Good talk. There's an official way to do it. And Hillary, I can't thank you enough for walking us through what that looks like from top to bottom. We appreciate you so much for explaining this to us today.

[Hillary Kupferberg]

Absolutely. And you know, it sounds intimidating, but there's opportunity for everyone to have these types of conversations with partners and think about things from a lens of growth. And even if it's not legally upheld in a court, these are the types of conversations and questions that everyone should be asking of their brands and media partners to really improve the way we all work together.

[Kamika McCoy]

Absolutely, Roger that. Well, that brings us to the end of this episode of the Digiday podcast. Thank you to everyone for listening. And please don't forget to share this episode with someone who you think would enjoy it. You can even rate us and leave us a comment on Apple Podcasts. We'll be back next week with another episode of the Ditch Day podcast. Thanks so much for joining us.