← The Digiday Podcast
The Digiday Podcast
How Kalen Allen navigates brand safety and cultural polarization in the creator economy
00:55:31
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- [00:00]
A
Foreign hello, hello and welcome to the Digiday Podcast, a show about the business of media and marketing. I'm Kamika McCoy, senior marketing reporter here at Digiday and Tim is out this week, but we are so lucky to have Digiday Senior editor of Media Buying and Planning, Michael Bergey. Join the show. Bergey, welcome.
- [00:27]
B
Hi Kimiko, Good to be back. Thanks for asking me. I'm, I'm flattered and honored.
- [00:31]
A
Listen, we've, we've got a lot to chat about, a lot of juicy scoops. I feel like I have not been employing that word nearly as much as I used to. But later on in this episode we'll have our full time creator and show host, Kaylin Allen, who's going to join me to talk about the creator economy last year, Starbucks fiasco, if you guys remember that, and how he's navigating exactly what brand safety looks like as a creator in our highly political and politicized landscape. But first, back to our juicy scoops. WPP is rolling out its own White Glove AI service. There's lawsuits now against more AI companies and one major media company is going up for sale. So let's start with the White Glove service. This is an area that you've been covering along with our reporter Sam Bradley, and I think it's super interesting. So last Thursday, WPP launched WPP Open Pro. Say that three times fast, right?
- [01:25]
B
Exactly.
- [01:26]
A
It's AI marketing platform that allows brands to plan, create and publish campaigns directly. In plain terms, I'm kind of thinking of this as like a white glove self service where WPP clients can plan, create and like I said, publish their own campaigns all within the same ecosystem. Like giving clients a tool. Right. But wrapped inside WPP's infrastructure. What do you make of all this right now? And it's happening at an interesting time right before their earnings.
- [01:52]
B
There's a couple of interesting elements to this. For one, I think WPP is trying to get ahead of its competition with this. This by what they're doing essentially is letting clients, and possibly even non clients, but certainly their smaller end of clients to play with. What is WPPP open, its AI infrastructure themselves? I think you're going to pay a license to kind of get in there and have access to it. And you probably pay more the more you use it. But what they're doing is, and this is the interesting thing to me, unlike other holding companies, this feels like the first effort to look down the scale of their client base to the smaller ones. Because as we've been talking about and Digiday has been writing about for a couple of months now. As the holding companies get bigger, it feels like they're focusing only on the largest of clients. This seems to be opening the back door to smaller clients to say, hey, we're going to let you play in our AI sandbox here and you're going to have to pay for it. But you get to kind of control your own destiny a little bit. We'll help you as much or as little as you, as you want. And this feels like a different offering than the other hold gos. So I, I, I give them props for trying something different and trying to get ahead of others. Where all the other holding companies have made such huge investments in AI, but in this kind of like structural, kind of evil empire kind of way. And this is like letting the rebels in the back door a little bit. Sorry my Star wars analogies. I, I can't help myself. I'm such a dork.
- [03:30]
A
I love that it helps people like me understand all of the moving parts here. But to some extent like WPP has to do something like this, right? They've been kind of taken a good walloping in in comparison to like, like publish has been eating their lunch.
- [03:45]
B
Publicist has been eating everybody's lunch. To be fair, I mean I, I don't know, I don't understand how they're not as big as, to go back to my Star wars analogy, Jabba the Hut, but, and I promise that's my last one, but you know, yeah, Publicis has been just on this incredible tear and they're, you know, they were like the first to kind of talk AI with their whole Marcel offering back in, was it 2018 when they said we're not sending anybody to can, we're taking all that money savings from not sending everybody to Cannes to build Marcel, which was like the first AI driven operating platform within them. They've worked that to extreme success and they've been kind of laughing all the way to the bank. So yes, WPP has to do this and the other holding companies have to do whatever they can to keep up with Public as well. Omnicom's way of doing that is to go buy ipg. But so yes, WPP is in a position where they have to do this. I give them credit for not only spending the hundreds of millions of dollars to really implement AI across the board, but now through Open Pro, letting the little guys use it a little bit, it could end up being a decent source of revenue. I think revenue generation isn't as far as I understand is not what the, you know, the modus or what, what the motivation is here, but it is certainly a way to, you know, let clients control their own destiny, but also to let smaller clients who might otherwise feel disaffected or disenchanted by WPP's focus on the big guys to have a chance to play with those same big tools.
- [05:25]
A
Well, this is also kind of like, would you consider this to be Cindy Rose as the new president's kind of first stamp? Right. Because part of like bringing her into the fold was about AI ambitions to make WPP better, to compete.
- [05:40]
B
It may be coincidental just because she's literally only been on the job for a month. Oh no. I guess. No. Is it two months now? Two months now. She started September 1st. This could have a little bit of her imprimatur on it. And we're going to find out more about her imprimatur with the, with WPP's earnings results which come up. I think they're announcing Thursday morning on October 30th and it'll be interesting to see if there's any change. But yeah, she is there to turn this company around. Whether it's turning it around to prepare it for a sale or to actually beef up the company remains to be seen. She's made a lot of leadership changes. She's done a little bit of streamlining of leadership where there's fewer individual brand CEOs and more of a streamlined structure. So it's hard to tell whether this is a direct result of Cindy's ascendancy to the CEO spot or if this was already in the works. But I think what, what I would say is pretty indisputable though is it's a smart move.
- [06:44]
A
Yeah. And I wonder if you'll see. Well, you kind of looked at this before and kind of like cataloging this in the reporting is like how you're seeing other agencies also start to do something like this. Almost thinking about it from like early days of like publishers rolling out their own CMS systems. Right. These white glove tool tech tools for, for companies to buy. And I wonder if you're going to see agencies kind of doing the same thing. Is that what we're seeing?
- [07:09]
B
Well, sir, there's, to me, to me there's two different things going on. You've got the holding companies, evil empire building the Death Star. Oh dear, I'm sorry. I went back there. I apologize. Building these kind of large scale AI enterprise solutions. And then what I'm, what I'm seeing among the Independents and I've writt about this in the last few weeks. Whether it's Mission One Media, which is the new Barclay OKRP media agency spinoff or RX Machina, they're building these small narrower AI implementations that go deep in kind of a subtopic. For example, what Ars X Machina and to Some Degree Mission 1 media have done in the last few weeks is basically improving marketing mix modeling through the application of AI on it. The knock on mmm which has been very effective but in a long term sense the knock on MMM is that it takes too long to get the results. AI completely compresses that process. So we're seeing independence go deep and long on these kind of individual subsets whereas the holding companies are building these kind of enterprise solutions across everything that they do. But yeah, I think it's interesting that AI is really kind of ultimately democratizing a lot of technological advances that an agency can do. You don't have to have hundreds of millions of dollars anymore to invest and build your own solutions. It's just the independents are I think wisely choosing like a specific path where they can be a deep seeded expertise. We've seen it also in kind of audience research and creating synthetic audiences and stuff. The independents are doing a lot of stuff like that. So that, that's the difference that I see.
- [08:59]
A
It'll be interesting to see how this plays out and I think you'll start to see that in earnings which WPP to your point has their, their latest one coming up here pretty soon. But you'll start to see if because there's such a big investment in AI to see if these tools are paying off will be kind of showing up in you know, the reports that, that come out around their earnings.
- [09:19]
B
Well, Publicis recent earnings. Our colleague Seb Joseph did a great story just looking at how AI permeated every corner of Publicis results. I think he said something like Arthur Sedun. He quoted Arthur sedun as saying 80% of our revenue was touched in some way by AI and that like three years ago we were barely talking about AI and now it's like it touched 80% of the dollars that they brought in. That I find a little bit insane. And I do think that there's, there's a real just over swinging in the direction of AI across everything that we're touching these days. But you know, that's the pendulum swinging towards where the momentum is. It'll eventually find its middle ground. But yeah, there's a lot out there right now.
- [10:06]
A
Well on the business side of things. It's starting to kind of the dust is. Well, the dust is being kicked up and settled at the same time because they're starting to be some questions that are being answered around efficacy and usage and things like that. On the legal and reg front though, the picture, the picture is a little bit more muddy, a little bit more complicated and a lot more contentious. So last week Reddit became the latest platform slash company to make a lawsuit against an AI company. Right. So Reddit sued Perplexity AI, you know, according to Reuters and whatnot, accusing it and several other companies of unlawfully scraping Reddit data to train its AI based search engine. That suddenly just the latest in a growing wave of like IP and data and copyright lawsuits. Think New York Times, Disney, Universal, all of which have also taken aim at AI companies. The thing here that's interesting to me is that there is, I wonder if we're going to start to see the precedent set right of some type of like legal framework. I know I've reported on this before and several others at our company have of like, you know, who does the onus fall on for, for this? I know back in September California Governor Gavin Newsom signed into law a new set of rules to ensure safe development of AI per New York Times. And if that will kind of create like a knock on effect is to be determined. You know what I mean?
- [11:28]
B
Yeah. Well, I mean as, as I think we talked about earlier, you know California has been very precedent setting in a lot of different areas of government regulation. Whether it's like the, was it the, the, was it the CAFE standards that the auto automobile automobile mileage standards standards and stuff like that. What's. Look, one thing I'll just agree with you completely about right now is the lack of AI regulation is creating somewhat of a wild west. There's a lot of stuff going on that we're seeing that probably needs some degree of guardrails around it and those guardrails don't really exist yet. I think a lot which, that, which is what's leading to a lot of these lawsuits because AI companies are hungry for ingesting as much information to make their systems as smart as possible. I understand that but if you're, if you're eating IP you gotta pay the bill at some point and those bills are kind of not being paid. And that's why the Reddit's and the New York Times are suing. Whether California is able to continue to be precedent setting in the AI laws that it's trying to implement and their possible Effect on kind of some sort of national regulation or other states following suit, I think remains to be seen. And the main reason I say that is because right now California is becoming more of an outlier with the current presidential administration. We have the fact that California is very much in opposition to kind of the way, the direction that the White House wants to see things going. So I think there's no doubt we need the regulation, we need guardrails. There needs to be some degree of better control over this, especially given that it's AI. And AI in an unfettered potential marketplace can kind of go crazy and haywire. We've already seen small examples of that. And, and also, you know, media companies need to be paid for their ip. So I there, boy, there's a, there's a lot of stuff that's got to get figured out here, and it's going to be messier before it gets cleaner, I think.
- [13:37]
A
Yeah. The official title of this one put forth by, by Newsom is the Transparency and Frontier Artificial Intelligence Act. Say that times fast and requires the most advanced AI companies to report. Right. Their safety protocols that are used in building these technologies and report like, the risks to your point that are, that are posed by these technologies. It also creates some protections against, for, excuse me, for whistleblowers, for employees who warn about the, the public about these potential dangers. But I think it's really interesting because as I reported, you know, not too long ago, the White House is in kind of direct opposition. And you're seeing these tech CEOs and executives kind of align themselves with like, less regulation, less scrutiny and things like that, which is in direct opposition with some of the, you know, where states are going. And then also. So you're also seeing like this, like, patchwork of like, lawsuits, state by state regulations that I think may start to set the, the framework right for some regulation.
- [14:41]
B
Yeah, it's, it's at least going to probably create a blueprint for where, where the guardrails need to be built. I don't think it guarantees those guardrails being built. To me, the irony is, you know, if California is not paid more attention to. The fact is, so much of this innovation is happening in California, last I checked, Silicon Valley is there. So it would make sense for it to be heated. But a lot of those tech billionaires that all sat in a row behind President Trump at his inauguration and have made sure that they tip the hat or some would say bend the knee, they're gonna make sure that the white. Or they're gonna do everything they can to make sure that the White House keeps those guardrails as loosely defined as possible so that unfettered growth can continue. And a lot of Wall street analysts are basically pointing out that what's really kind of propping up the economy and the stock market right now is the, the heat being thrown off by a lot of AI companies and the growth potential there. So you can make the argument that you don't want to stifle, you know, kind of stock growth and, you know, the wealth that that throws off. But right now that wealth seems to be going more into the pockets of the 1%. And I don't know. Yeah, my 401k is doing okay, but I don't know, it's. I'm not sure it's all worth it, especially if, you know, again, if media companies don't get paid for the value of their intellectual property, AI is having such an impact across everything that we write about, whether it's zero, click, search, and, you know, things like that. So I really do think that, you know, there has to be, there's going to have to be some degree of guardrails. And right now, to your point, we're at the blueprint stage, not actually building, you know, sinking fence poles into the ground.
- [16:32]
A
Well, the last thing that I want to note here is because, like, on the one end you're seeing, I think you've seen media companies and now like platforms like Reddit and whatnot, people with content at companies with content at stake are kind of putting their stake in the ground, drawing their line in the sand. Agencies, however, are kind of on the opposite side of this, like, really leaning in. You're seeing a lot of merger and acquisition, you know, in this space. But when you and I were talking earlier, you mentioned that agencies are actually beefing up their legal departments, you know, kind of cautious around what this looks like for their clients. Talk to a little about that.
- [17:01]
B
Yeah, that, that and our colleague Sam Bradley did a really great story on this a few weeks ago. Agencies are almost becoming like AI whisperers in that their legal teams are helping brands wend their way through, you know, where to play with AI and where not to play with AI so that they don't get into trouble. And I think that is very much the result of this absence of regulation and guardrails. You know, it's on the good side for agencies. It's helping them prove their worth to clients by making sure they can kind of lead the way through the minefield so that no one blows their leg off. So to speak. Sorry. Bad. I'm full of terrible analogies today. I'm sorry. But, you know, but that is an invaluable service, because I don't know if brands and marketers have the time or the efforts to be able to do that themselves. And that's why you have an agency. You know, they're supposed to be looking out for you in a lot of ways, guiding you through your media selections or your creative process. But now, with AI overlaid on everything, and with agencies doing everything they can to become experts in AI, they can apply that knowledge to guiding brands through that. That kind of. That minefield.
- [18:14]
A
Absolutely. Then while the AI world is full of lawsuits and legislation and minefields, then nobody wants to end up like. What's the character from Forrest Gump? Is it Captain Dave? Captain what's his name?
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B
Oh, is it?
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A
No.
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B
Captain Ron? No, no, that's. Oh, that's a different movie.
- [18:32]
A
Oh, my God.
- [18:32]
B
Lieutenant Dan. Lieutenant Dan.
- [18:34]
A
Lieutenant Dan. Nobody wants to end up like Lieutenant Dan.
- [18:37]
C
Yes.
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B
God almighty.
- [18:39]
A
Over in media land, there's a different type of shakeup that's maybe brewing. We finally got some more information about the Warner Brothers Discovery sale. Right. So last week, Warner Brothers Discovery said it's weighing a possible sale. The company, which is the owner of CNN and HBO and Warner Brothers, the media movie studio. Right. Revealed that it's got interest from multiple suitors. That. That's Amazon, that's Apple, that's Netflix and Comcast. They're weighing a variety of deals here. Right. But, Fergie, this has been bubbling for months. I feel like I've been talking about this, you know, for a while. You mentioned that. I can't. Is this shaping up, in your opinion, to be like a strategic sale or a fire sale?
- [19:22]
B
I lean towards the latter only because I think it's clear that the merger of Warner Brothers and Discovery didn't turn out to be what a lot of people, including David Zaslav, the CEO of Warner Brothers Discovery, thought it would be. They're saddled with a lot of debt. There have been some missteps. Well, first there's the macro situation, and that is traditional and linear media just does not command the value that it used to. Okay. What used to be really invaluable, cable networks in TNT and CNN are no longer as valuable because between cord cutting and the rise of streaming, and then when you get to streaming, HBO created HBO Max, and then they changed the name, and then they changed the name back. There's been a lot of ins and outs of their IP in terms of what's available there. And that's created some confusion in the marketplace. And then you put it together with the Discovery Network's properties, which were, you know, tlc, the Discovery Channel, Animal Planet. It just was never a very good organization. Organic fit. I think it was driven more by, dare I say, the ego of David Zaslav to be a big time titan. And I think whether he likes it or not, we're kind of finding out that maybe he just wasn't the visionary that he thought he was. And so to come around to what's happening right now, you've got the Ellisons who just bought Paramount, have now made, I think, their third sweetened offer for the assets. And Zaslav and Warner Brothers Discovery keep turning it down, even though, according to some Wall street analysts, that offering is actually overpriced. And that's what kind of leads me to thinking that what used to be really valuable assets are going to probably be sold for less value than their CEO thinks they should be sold at.
- [21:25]
A
Yeah, the question, because like I said, like, this is not the first time that we've, that this has been reported on and like, it's like how much of the onus is like macro environment, right. With linear and like traditional media kind of taking a hit here, but also like how much of this is on Zaslav for kind of holding, holding up the, the train.
- [21:44]
B
I, you know, I, I followed David Zaslav's career pretty closely for, for the better part of 20, 25 years since he kind of became a big shot on the scene. He rose up the ranks in Discovery and you know, he, the man has very big ambitions. Yeah, I think ultimately his ambitions were larger than what he's been able to pull off. I don't necessarily blame him for that. You know, aim high and if you don't make it, well, at least you tried. And I guess he can say that. But what, what have been very good quality content assets over the last 30 years are probably going to end up not getting the value that they, that I would argue they may deserve. But others would argue that the, the, the time of that intellectual property has kind of come and gone and it's going to be great as a kind of back library that could inform some of the streaming services out there that might be vying to buy Warner Brothers Discovery. But that feels more like an aftermarket than commanding real value. Now granted, Warner Brothers as a studio is still spitting out content in the form of movies and TV shows, so there might be value there we'll see whether the company gets broken up into pieces. But then you look at things like TNT and CNN and they just, they just don't command the value they used to. And as an old school media guy, I got to admit I shed a tear or two. But that's just the way things have gone and got to accept it and move on and get as much, they'll try to get as much value as they can.
- [23:33]
A
Yeah. And you know, which billionaire, whether it be, you know, Apple, Amazon, Netflix, you know, or the, or this sky dance, Paramount overlords will be determined who actually makes a play or a stab at this. Now, I will say one thing that my grandmother told me when I was growing up is you choose. Choose to. You choose ship. And that essentially just means you can only be so picky with the choices that are put in front of you. But it'll be interesting to see how, how that kind of shakes out. But either way, I think, you know, the, the, the traditional television landscape is changing. Not necessarily for the better, but while that's kind of taking a hit, there's the booming creat. And like I said this week, we've got Kailyn Allen on the show to talk to us a little bit about his experience as a creator, what brand safety looks like today for him, and kind of navigating this really tricky space of being a creator slash thought leader slash everything else to your audience while also kind of toeing the line with brand deals. But Fergie, can't thank you enough for stopping by and hashing this all out with me.
- [24:40]
B
I always enjoy these conversations.
- [24:41]
A
Thanks. Kimiko Kaylin, welcome to the show. It's so nice to talk to you again. How are you?
- [24:58]
C
I'm wonderful. How you doing? Last time I think I talked to you, I was in my car. Luckily, I am in a actual seat now. I was getting ready to leave Jersey City to come back to Los Angeles.
- [25:09]
A
Are y' all settled in now?
- [25:11]
C
Somewhat. You know, we, we working on it. It's hard. I've been busier than ever, kind of, and work has really just kind of really stacked on top of each other. And so it's been hard trying to get settled while also working, but we doing the best we can.
- [25:28]
A
You know, I'm so excited to have you on the show today because one of the things that we've been talking about and I've been reporting on is kind of like how the creator economy is changing. And to your point about having so many projects, you're, you're busy and it the kind of expectations and the creator economy and how it's changing. You've just moved to California. You've also just got your journalism degree. You've launched a Fox reality check show, talk show. You've got a lot going on. But I want to ask, like, how are you making sense of your business? What's your business strategy? There's so much happening here.
- [26:04]
C
Well, I think this is the thing and I, and this is really the real t of it. When I came back here, I made the decision that I am not an influencer. I don't claim myself to be that I don't go places and think of how to record it or what am I going to do. Like, I think people misunderstand what I do because they look at my social platforms and they see all these followers. But what they aren't realizing is a lot of those followers have been built because of the work that I have done on television. So like when I was at Ellen, that then gained me a lot of followers then going to do Food Network, like all these different places in movies and TV shows and being visible in all these different places, which is a marketing thing, has then equipped myself to have this large following. And. But I think the difference is because creators are able to just show up authentically, you know, straight to camera. Well, a lot of the work that I was doing at Ellen was very much like that. You know, it was just kind of me being me. So that's kind of how that was all built. But. But I made the decision that when I got back to la, I was like, if I don't wanna be considered an influencer, then I need to stop doing influencer stuff. And I was like, I wanna talk show, I wanna work on tv. I said, and even I don't necessarily think TV is a dying art. I think it's just changing. Just like everything else changes in the way that we use it and it evolves. And so I'm more so like, what does a talk show look like in today's day and age with streamers and TikToks and all those things and really just sinking into that. So the business strategy is more so making now that I've gotten the degree and I've done all these other things is being more aligned towards the end goal, which is the talk show. So that's why there's the Fox Reality Check, you know. And then also I have a game show that I'm hosting for Amazon called Pick youk Prize that that premieres next month. So it's like I'm like, I. And also it was not so much specifically like theater specific shows that I was like, this is going to be it. But it was more so I wanted people, I wanted production companies, I wanted these executives to be able to see what I'm able to do on my own.
- [28:17]
A
Yeah, that's interesting. I've labeled this like the Mr. Beast route, where you start, right, Your platform, social media and whatnot, and kind of move beyond that. But last time you and I talked, we talked a little bit about this transition that you're, that you're making right now. But. But brand deals were still kind of an important part of your monetization strategy, right? I think you said like it was like 90% of your income. How has that shaped up this year? Especially with like all of the changes and like measurement expectations and things like this. How is brand deal shaped up for you?
- [28:48]
C
I think they're, I think there's still a big part of that. But luckily when you do have a job, like if you're working a show, you're getting a paycheck. You know what I mean? So I probably say, I probably say now it's maybe. I mean, it's still not that big of a difference. I'll probably take down to 80% now. You know, I'm like maybe 80%. But I think my relationships with the brands have gone back to what I think worked for me before. I think while I was in New York, I was kind of waiting for brands to reach out to me. And in, in success. What has always worked for me is if I create a, a video about a certain brand and that does popular, then chances are then that brand circles back to me to do an ad down the line, you know what I mean? I think I am more now instead of just doing jobs to do them just for the sake of a paycheck. I think I've become a little bit more intentional to be like, how does this fit into my world? Cause I think I'm taking more of like, what's the story here? You know what I mean? Like, for instance, I made a very shocking video the other day about going on vacation that people were shocked at. But that's because I already knew the vacation was coming up and I knew I had to make content for the vacation. But I need a good story for this that's gonna make people wanna be invested in it. Otherwise it's like, I mean, what's different than anybody else going on vacation? You know what I mean? Like, so I think that's more so and so maybe even to your first question about how has things changed for me as far as like, business plan? I think now maybe it's a little. Just a little bit more strategic. I think I'm zoning in. I'm zeroing in on what the actual goal is, and anything that doesn't align with that goal just isn't going to exist.
- [30:40]
A
That's interesting. Do you get the sense that brands are kind of on the same wavelength here? Right? Because in the conversations that I'm having, there's more pressure for, you know, there to be a return on ad spend when working with creators. There's more pressure to kind of control the messaging. There's more pressure to ensure that, you know, content is syndicated across several different platforms outside of just, you know, Instagram, TikTok and YouTube and things like that. How are you seeing the requests that come from the brands kind of change?
- [31:09]
C
I think the hard part, like, for instance, I had a brand reach out and they wanted me to work with them and they. And basically the rate was kind of low. And so my. My agent had responded me and like, well, this is right. But they tried to say that the rate was low because they said that my ads don't perform as well as my organic content. And I was like, well, that's kind of everybody's story, but okay. But not realizing that you're not only paying for, like, for like, just views, but like all these, like, exclusivity and usage and if you can run an ad and that's how it really starts to add up, you know what I mean? And I felt like that was just an excuse to just trying to get me to do it for cheaper because I was also like, this is also related to something that already exists in my world, so you already know that's gonna perform better. You know what I mean? And I think, I think especially when you're working on an ad, I think a lot of times these brands come in with these briefs that are so specific, you know, And I don't know about anybody else, but when I'm presented a brief, then I become, okay, this is my client, right? You know, and so now I need to make sure I stay on this. And sometimes some of that stuff just isn't going to perform well. Like when you and everybody has, like, these different rules as far as, like, what you can do. Like, sometimes in the bae, you have to say, I'm partnering with somebody right from the jump. And I'll be like, well, that's already gonna make me Swipe, you know, like, I'm already not going to pay attention to that, you know, so I'm always like, how do you find an organic way of implementing the brand into your day?
- [32:43]
A
Do you, do you have a. I'm curious what this looks like as like, what creators are talking about behind closed doors, right? When you get something like that, a low ball offer, or they're like super strict or whatever, do you go to a group chat to other creators and be like, have y' all worked with this brand before? Have they low balled y' all before?
- [33:01]
C
Sometimes it depends if it's a brand that, you know, somebody else has worked with. There have been times that I've been on stuff that I've gone to for, like, free and found out that other people were paid for it, you know, And I think that's really. I think that's the most frustrating thing about it all. Cause I'm like, do you not think that we talk? Do you not think that we don't discuss this stuff? And that's the quickest way to turn me off from something. Like, if I come and I know that you aren't treating us equally or equitable, you know, then I'm like, mm. Cause I'm like, why did they get that? But I didn't. But yet my, my content's performing better or I have more access to a bigger audience, but yet you not giving me the same. And I'm like, all right, see, now, now I can't, I can't be messing with you, you know?
- [33:48]
A
Yeah, that's. It's interesting that you have a group chat. Cause, like, even me, so, you know, for journalism and things like that, I'll have somebody reach out and say, hey, can you do this book review or whatever? And I'll go to my homegirls in the group chat who are also journalists, and be like, have y' all been pitched by this company before? Did they pay you on time? Yada, yada, yada. What else happens in Yalls, In Yalls group chat?
- [34:10]
C
Well, you just said it. Pay on time. I listen. I think it's kind of crazy that a brand will hound you and they will be on your back about turning in your content at a certain time at a certain date, but then want to take years to pay you that. Net 30, net 90. Whoever came up with that? Nah, it's a mess. That's a mess. Because what do you mean? Like, I have bills and also listen, and this is really how they get new people that are creators and especially these Big companies, they try to sell you on this thing of, you have a seat at the table. The thing about me, I've been doing this now close to 10 years. I'm not just happy to be in the room anymore. This is a career. I said, I don't care what the opportunity, unless it is really remarkable, I'm not doing it. And sometimes you gotta look at stuff to be like, even if the offer is low, to be able to look at it and be like, okay, well, yes, this is low, but this will benefit me in these other ways, you know? So every opportunity. You know what I mean? So you really have to gauge. And that's what I tell. And I always listen. I always tell anybody I know that's a creator. I say, if a brand cannot match your rate, then ask for the rest of it in product.
- [35:30]
A
Mm.
- [35:31]
C
That's how I got my mama a stove and a refrigerator.
- [35:36]
A
A stove and a refrigerator. That's a good deal.
- [35:38]
C
Yes. You gotta make the system work for you. Cause at the end of the day, it's a business transaction, right? So it's like, okay, well, this all you got and you want all this? Well, then this is what I need.
- [35:51]
A
How do you go about, like, the vetting process here, right? Because on the one end, you have your group chat, but on the other hand, like, how do you vet them? Not just in terms of, like, paying on time, but, like, this is a brand that is true to their word, kind of aligns with your brand, with your values and whatnot.
- [36:08]
C
Well, usually the brands that come to me are usually big brands that I already am aware of or that I know it's very. It's not likely that I get smaller brands or stuff like that, but if it is, it's kind of like a gifting kind of situation. So. And there have been times also, I've done partnerships with brands that were a little bit new, but I kind of like their. Their message or what they were working on. And so I've. I've worked with them as well. I had a conversation this morning with a brand that I already knew didn't have much money because it was based in education and stuff like that. But I felt that because of the state of the world, that I felt like it was necessary for us to work together, because I felt like. I felt like that it would benefit them more for me to. To help amplify their mission and their message. And it's not necessarily for the money. You know what I mean? Now, when we talking about, like, a food place, so Good. Like, you know, like, who. Who cares? You know? So it's like, I gauge it based off of that. And I think another thing about me is that regardless if you're paying my rate or you're paying below my rate, I'm still gonna give you the same quality of. Of. Of content and performance, you know, the.
- [37:18]
A
State of the world. I want to hone in on that, right? Because I would imagine that that also makes brand deals striking brand deals kind of tricky. One of the things that you and I have talked to in the past is kind of navigating these things as somebody is inherently political by being a black, queer person, navigating the right of the world. So talk to me about, like, how does that impact. Impact, you know, who you strike, your brand deals and your negotiation terms and things like that?
- [37:41]
C
I. It's very difficult. And the reason why it's very difficult is that because for us, it is literally our jobs. We're. We're doing. We're going to work just like everybody else. You know what I mean? And I think sometimes it's hard because it's like one. I think people forget. Like, for instance, when people were talking about the Jimmy Kimmel situation, right? And that was a big thing as somebody that experienced something similar, but not exactly the same as far as, like, the actual subject, like at Ellen, you know, of a show going off the air, I'm like. And everybody's like, well, Jimmy Kimmel will be just fine. There are more people that work at the Jimmy Kimmel show other than Jimmy Kimmel, you know, And I say. I used to say that all the time about Ellen. It's like, y' all don't realize. It's like, yes, Ellen will be fine. These executives will be fine, but the people that are actually going to hurt from this are the hundreds of people that work on the show. Especially in a time where Hollywood is really struggling, where there are not a lot of opportunities, there are not a lot of jobs. You know, it's like, well, where are they supposed to go? How are they supposed to make a living? How are they supposed to live now? You know what I mean? But I think that's the hard part about this job, because not only do you live in this space where, yes, it's just your career, but you also are being consumed by everyday people that see what you do as just like, as being a hobby, which somebody could say, could argue that's true. I'm not arguing about the importance of it or how much impact it has or any of that. But at the end of the day, a job is a job.
- [39:16]
A
Yeah.
- [39:17]
C
Regardless of how you get it. You know what I mean? And it's like. So sometimes it's like people were mad at Quinta for not saying anything during the whole. I was like, why would she? I said, she's also under contract, which means that she probably cannot say anything legally. That happened to me when I was at Ellen, when everything. Everybody was like, you aren't talking out. You aren't saying anything. You aren't defending anybody. And I'm like, we are all. This is a legal thing for us. Like, we actually cannot talk about these things to the public. And I think that's what people don't understand. Like, there's public and then there's actually like, no, this is our real lives. You know, like, we are actually living in and breathing this on a daily basis.
- [39:59]
A
There's something to be said about that. Right. Because like, everything is inherently political at this point. Culture has become like a cultural flashpoint. The so called culture wars. Right. While you've got people pushing you on one end, audiences, we want authenticity. We want you to stand on something. What's your take on, you know, X, Y and Z. That's happening. You've also got brands that don't want you to have too much of out to be too outspoken. Right. How. How do you kind of navigate that? How do you strike the balance there?
- [40:30]
C
You really have to just relinquish this idea that everybody's going to like you.
- [40:35]
A
Oh, okay.
- [40:36]
C
I think. I think you have to accept that you have to make decisions that are good for you. Like, I really realized this after I watched. I went to Cowboy Carter and I wrote about this, actually. And I was watching Beyonce and I was thinking about Oprah and I was thinking about these people that have done amazing things. And I was also thinking about controversy that. That surrounds them. And I've thought about how people have had critiques about them. And I said, but you know what I'm realizing? Like, I was thinking, really, when I was watching Beyonce do Cowboy card. No, I just remember all the uproar around it. You know what I mean? And I was just like, the reason why these people are successful is because even through their flaws and their mistakes or whatever you want to call it, they still just show up. They still show up and they do the job every day. And sometimes they address it, sometimes they don't. But they keep marching forward and staying committed to the purpose that they know their life is. And that's kind of what I Had to just accept to be like, there are some people that are not gonna agree with what I gotta say or who I am or what I stand for, think I should be louder in this way or another. And that's perfectly fine. But at the end of the day I'm a human being and to assume that I am going to be pristine and always just at tip top shape and perfect. Unrealistic. Yeah, unrealistic.
- [41:54]
A
And we can't have that conversation without acknowledging last year the kind of fallout with Starbucks. Right. You had an ad spot and people were upset about kind of Starbucks involvement, you know, amid controversy with Gaza and politics and things like this.
- [42:10]
C
Yes.
- [42:11]
A
Did that talk to me about the, the fallout there and kind of how that impacted how you struck your brand deals going forward?
- [42:20]
C
I don't think it necessarily had anything to do with the brand specifically. I think it more so taught me about the way the zeitgeist of social media works. Because I think specifically about that brand, there was just a lot of misinformation and there was a lot of like people confused as to what actually was. Cause I remember, I think there was like a, a page that had like boycott brands and stuff like that. And I remember at one point I went on there and Starbucks wasn't on that list. Then there was a whole conversation on Twitter about how the people were saying, no, we aren't boycotting Starbucks. You know what I mean? So it was just a little all over the place. And really this was not until after all that happened, once I saw the uproar, because I, and I know this is really hard to believe, but I am not chronically online, you know what I mean? But I think that's because since I work in social media, I have to have this separation, you know, so. And also when it all happened, I didn't see it as, as like, oh my gosh, this is terrible. I saw this. Oh, I didn't realize this was this deep. I didn't realize that all this had already been talked about and happening. You know what I mean? But that's cause I don't use social media for pleasure. Like I watch tv, which is why I wanna work on tv, you know, Like, I'm, I'm really old soul over here, you know. But I think my, my main problem, and that's why I say they had nothing to do with the brand, my problem. And I'm actually glad it happened. Cause it really opened my eyes to start being in a place of being like, you know what, I'm just gonna show up as me and do my job. Because what people use that moment to do is then enhance their bigotry, because then it was a lot of homophobia. Then there was a lot of racism coming out. You know what I mean? I remember. I remember right after that, I even had got like, oh, I got like, this real bad dm that was somebody really cussing me out because I had partnered with Ronald McDonald House Charities, and apparently McDonald's was on that list or whatever. That is a charity for kids with cancer. I am out here trying to raise money for kids with cancer. But because you saw Ronald McDonald, you immediately decided that that meant that you needed to curse me. And that was the stuff that I was just like, yeah. I was like, this is all performative.
- [44:52]
A
Yeah.
- [44:52]
C
I was like, like, the critique is fine. Like, I get the critique and I can make the adjustment and I can do what I need to do to do better on the long run. Like, yes, Now I tried to be a little bit more in the know of what's going on or what's happening, but when you start to use that to, like, attack people and. And make it more than it needs to be, then we're doing too much.
- [45:14]
A
Has any of that caused you to kind of like. Because how far back do you go, right, like, when you're vetting a brand to determine, like, if you're going to work with them or not? Like, are you. Because of how fast cultured culture moves? Excuse me. Are you now required to be like, all right, well, what did the CEO say back about the Black Lives Matter back in 2020? Right. What was their take on vaccines back in 2021? Like, how far back do you go to now? Vetta Brand to, you know, to ensure that you're on the right side of where you want to be?
- [45:42]
C
Well, I think the hard part about that is, like, you know, especially when you're a person of color working in this industry, you're already fighting. You're already fighting every day for the same opportunities that they giving to people that haven't done half of what you've done. You know what I mean? So it's like when you're trying to do that, but you're also trying to build your own career and you're trying to thrive. And also you're talking about these brands, and this is capitalism, and it's like, I don't know any brand that truly has, like, a perfect slate. You know what I mean? It's like, I don't think that's even realistic. You know what I mean, so it's more. So you kind of look at it and be like, okay, well, what is like, I think the target thing is a little crazier. You know what I mean? Because that's like, the target thing to me feels a little bit more direct to be like, oh, no, you moving funny. You know, like, that I can pinpoint to be like, yeah, I'm not going in a target. You know what I mean? Yeah, but. Or like, if you want to talk about, like, we talk about Chick Fil A, you know, like that whole, like when they was at protest against the gays and then all them people went to get the chicken the next day, like, those. Like when they specifically have done something to make a statement against something, to me, then that is like, okay. But when it's like, just like a little hearsay or like, for instance, I'll never forget this. Now, you probably knew this. What? Remember for the longest time we was told that Tommy Hilfiger was racist?
- [47:08]
A
Oh, yeah. Yeah.
- [47:10]
C
Then there was this whole thing, but I think even it may have been on Oprah.
- [47:15]
A
Yeah.
- [47:16]
C
Debunking it and talking about it and unpacking it. But still to this day, people still run with that. And that's what I'm saying. It's like we live in this whole fragmented society, especially when it comes to information.
- [47:29]
A
Yeah.
- [47:30]
C
Nobody knows what's real and what's not. You know, nobody knows, like, well, what. What did they actually do? There's been so many times that I'll do something, they'll be like, well, what about this? And I'll be like, well, what did they do? You know? And so I think it is really looking at what are these. What are these grievances? And what are these things, these opinions and does that. What is your line? What's the line that you're going to draw now?
- [47:54]
A
Is that something that you're also also finding comes up in the group chat at all.
- [48:01]
C
Sometimes? I think it all depends on specifically what the brand is or what the situation is. But I think there are also. I think this also goes into where you exist on the totem pole. You know, like, for instance, even if we go back to Starbucks. Right. I think there were four other people a part of that campaign. I think even T Pain had a. Had a whole commercial. Nobody got the same type of response like that. But me, I was the only person out of that campaign.
- [48:34]
A
How do you square that as your role as a. As a creator slash influencer? That kind of puts you in a precarious Predicament. Precarious predicament.
- [48:42]
C
As in, like, what do you mean?
- [48:44]
A
As in, like, having to straddle that line of I want to, you know, this is my job, but also, I don't want to piss off my audience.
- [48:53]
C
Well, I think. I think specifically about that situation, it was like, it just wasn't clear on what the actual boycott was or why the boycott was happening. And because it was so much mixed information and. And that was also why I got off of Twitter, because I was like, there's so much going on here that I don't know what it is. And it just also just sounds like big old echo chambers, you know. Now, if that would have been a case of something that I was aw. Before I had done it, then that would have been a different conversation, I think, entering to some, like, for instance, like, if I. If Target. Like, I was approached by Target to.
- [49:34]
A
Do ESSENCE Fest, Let it be known I was.
- [49:38]
C
And I said, absolutely not. Like, because I'm aware now, you know, like, I am in full understanding of what is happening. So, no, like, that's crazy. And to me, it's just not worth the check. You know, I think when you are aware then now you're making a deliberate choice, you know, but. But when you are. When you are kind of just like living in a fragmented world where you don't know all the facts and you don't know all the details, and, you know, there may be some type of people feel some type of way about it, but you don't know the extent of it, then that. That's a very different decision making.
- [50:17]
A
It seems like you've had to be a little. Although you describe yourself as somebody who's not chronically online, it seems like you have to be a little bit more online or up to date with how fast culture moves just to determine, okay, yes, this is a quote unquote, safe brand, a brand that I. That I'm willing to work with versus, you know, this brand's a little bit of hot water right now. Let me, you know, wait it out and see.
- [50:39]
C
I guess I treat. So when I was at Ellen every morning, we would do like a. I forgot what it was called then, but it was just like trending topics of what happened in the world, you know, and it would just be like the biggest stories of what's happening. And then after that meeting, then we would go into show, and then we wouldn't do it till the next morning. That's kind of how I operate. So I'll wake up in the morning and I'll get on like, threads or something like that, and I'll check to see, okay, what's happening, what's in the conversation, and I'll be like, okay, got it. And then I'm off of it. And then I. I don't. I'm not back on there until maybe the next morning, you know, but that's not enough time to really take in everything.
- [51:19]
A
Kind of like an all hands meeting.
- [51:22]
C
That's what it feels like.
- [51:23]
A
Are there other people at this meeting or is it just you and threads?
- [51:26]
C
Me and threads. It's me and threads. I mean, yeah, if I worked at a news station, you know, then maybe, you know, yeah, I would have a producer and people to be like, okay, well, these, this is everything that's happening. And I think that's also what people don't understand. It's like when you use social media as just a place for you to be entertained. Yeah. You're gonna know every and every little thing, you know? Or like when people, when a celebrity will say they didn't know about something, they'll be like, do you live under a rock and be like, no, they just don't. It's a different life. It's a different lifestyle. Also what you have access to is different, you know, So I think it's not. It's understanding that. That even though it feels like we live the same world, we actually don't.
- [52:11]
A
Palette. I appreciate you joining us on the show.
- [52:14]
C
Whoa. What a time to be alive.
- [52:20]
A
Well, that brings us to the end of this episode of the Digiday Podcast. Thank you to everyone for listening. And please don't forget to share this episode with someone who you think would enjoy it. You can even rate us and leave us a comment on on Apple Podcasts. We'll be back next week with another episode of the Digiday Podcast. Thank you so much for joining us.