How Pinterest went from selling views to selling clicks and conversions, with CRO Bill Watkins

Summary

The Digiday Podcast: How Pinterest Went from Selling Views to Selling Clicks and Conversions, with CRO Bill Watkins

Release Date: March 11, 2025

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Industry Updates: Juicy Scoops

Before diving into the main interview, hosts Tim Peterson and Kamika McCoy discuss several pivotal developments in the digital advertising and technology sectors.

1. Publicis Group's Strategic Acquisitions

• Publicis Group Acquires Loadomy: Publicis Group has acquired Loadomy, enhancing its data capabilities within its programmatic arm, Publicis Epsilon Group. Marty Swan highlights that this acquisition significantly boosts Publicis' data assets, facilitating the development of more robust AI systems for clients. Kamika notes, “Publicis is aiming to federate identity, shifting from centralized data management to client-side handling” (03:56).

• T-Mobile Expands in AdTech: T-Mobile has recently acquired Bliss, a UK-based adtech startup, for $175 million, and Vistar Media, a digital out-of-home company. This move positions T-Mobile as a late entrant into the advertising sector, contrasting previous attempts by Verizon and AT&T, which eventually exited the ad business (04:50). Tim reflects, “T-Mobile is determined to succeed where others have not,” underscoring the company's commitment (06:30).

• RGA's Transition to Private Ownership: RGA, after 23 years under IPG, is reverting to a privately owned entity. This shift is part of a broader trend where private equity firms are increasingly acquiring adtech companies. Kamika raises concerns about potential downsizing, a common practice post-acquisition (06:50).

2. Retail Media Networks on the Rise

• Target's Retail Media Performance: Target reported flat overall revenue for Q4 but saw growth in its retail media arm, Roundel, which generated $649 million. In comparison, Amazon leads with $17 billion, and Walmart follows with $4.4 billion in ad revenue. Despite the stiff competition, Kamika notes Target's potential to double Roundel's size, though it remains a fraction of Walmart's scale (07:29; 08:52).

3. TikTok's Uncertain Future in the US

With less than a month before the 75-day deadline for a decision on TikTok's status in the US, President Trump has indicated four potential bidders for a TikTok deal, though specifics remain undisclosed. Potential buyers from earlier reports include Elon Musk, Mr. Beast, Kevin O'Leary, Larry Ellison, Steve Mnuchin, Perplexity, Microsoft, and Serena Williams. Kamika compares the ongoing uncertainty to Google's third-party cookie deprecation, emphasizing the prolonged ambiguity surrounding TikTok's fate (10:06; 12:26).

4. YouTube Introduces Premium Lite

YouTube has launched a new subscription tier, Premium Lite, priced at $7.99 per month. This tier allows users to watch most videos without ads, excluding music videos and shorts. There is speculation about its potential success given the crowded subscription market. Tim expresses surprise at YouTube not including podcasts in the ad-free offering, considering their significant consumption on the platform (13:16; 15:36).

5. Promotion: Work Life's New Podcast

Kamika and Tim promote Work Life’s new podcast, "Moms at Work," hosted by Jess Davis. The podcast explores the challenges faced by working mothers and offers insights for employers to support them better. Both hosts commend the podcast's blend of personal stories and expert interviews, encouraging listeners to check it out (16:23; 17:37).

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Interview: Bill Watkins on Pinterest’s Transformation

The centerpiece of this episode is an in-depth conversation with Bill Watkins, Chief Revenue Officer at Pinterest. They explore Pinterest's strategic shift from a view-centric platform to one focused on clicks and conversions, driven by significant investments in artificial intelligence (AI) and enhanced data utilization.

1. Pinterest's Evolution and Recent Success

Bill Watkins shares insights into Pinterest’s journey over the past decade. Initially focused on building a strong foundation, Pinterest is now in its "third chapter," emphasizing performance advertising. This strategic pivot has culminated in Pinterest achieving its first-ever billion-dollar quarter in Q4 2024.

"We have an end-to-end AI solution across creative, bidding, budgets, targeting... driving better results for our advertisers." (24:18)

2. Transition from Views to Conversions

Five years ago, Pinterest primarily sold views. Today, two-thirds of its ad revenue is derived from lower funnel activities like clicks and conversions. This shift is attributed to:

• Data Expansion: Scaling from hundreds of thousands to billions of SKUs, enhancing product selection and relevance.
• AI Integration: Leveraging AI to utilize Pinterest’s unique data asset of organized pins and boards, enabling more effective ad targeting and performance.
• Measurement Enhancements: Implementing robust measurement solutions, including Conversion API (CAPI) and partnerships with nearly 100 measurement partners, ensuring accurate tracking of ad performance.

"The combination of investment in shopping, more SKUs, more auction density, and utilizing our unique data with AI has propelled us to a $1.2 billion Q4." (21:43)

3. Balancing Ad Load with User Experience

Bill emphasizes Pinterest’s commitment to its mission: inspiring users while facilitating their shopping journey. To balance increased ad load without compromising user experience, Pinterest employs:

• AI-Driven Relevance: Ads are treated as content, ensuring they align with users' interests and aspirations.
• User Engagement Metrics: Monitoring user return rates, engagement, and time spent on-site to gauge ad tolerance.
• Positive Environment: Maintaining a brand-safe, positive platform by banning political and anti-vaccine ads and investing in diversity and inclusion through AI (27:39; 31:49).

"Ads on Pinterest are content, and with our AI-driven solutions, we're seeing both ad load and ad relevancy increase in tandem without sacrificing user growth." (36:42)

4. AI Investments and Transparency

Pinterest’s AI investments are central to its advertising strategy. Bill outlines:

• Data Utilization: Pinterest’s extensive data, with over 500 billion pins organized into 10 billion boards, provides a rich foundation for AI training.
• AI Enhancements: Significant investments in GPUs and large language models have amplified AI capabilities, driving double-digit growth in user engagement and ad relevance.
• Transparency with Advertisers: Pinterest offers advertisers flexibility in using bundled AI solutions or testing individual features. Additionally, the platform maintains transparency by allowing advertisers to understand and measure AI-driven outcomes.

"We’re the antidote to the toxicity of social media, engineering the most positive app on the Internet." (48:55)

5. Pinterest’s Unique Positioning

Pinterest positions itself at the intersection of search, social, and commerce. This unique blend allows it to serve as an inspirational hub where users not only discover new ideas but also seamlessly transition into shopping those inspirations.

"In 30 years, I’ll tell my kids I worked for a company whose sole aim was to inspire the world." (53:14)

6. Success Stories and Performance Metrics

Bill shares notable success stories showcasing Pinterest’s performance advertising effectiveness:

• Pandora: Achieved a 73% increase in ROAS, a 79% rise in checkout volumes, and a 44% reduction in CPA.
• Prada: Experienced a 64% decrease in CPA and a 30% increase in conversion rates.
• Overall Impact: Since launching Pinterest Performance Plus, advertisers have seen an average 20% gain in efficiency across various metrics.

"Our ability to drive better performance metrics underscores our AI investments and data utilization." (44:43)

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Conclusion

This episode of The Digiday Podcast offers a comprehensive look into Pinterest’s strategic evolution under the leadership of Bill Watkins. By prioritizing AI and leveraging its vast data assets, Pinterest has successfully transformed its advertising approach, resulting in significant revenue growth and enhanced advertiser performance. The discussion also highlights broader industry trends in adtech acquisitions, retail media expansion, and the ongoing uncertainties surrounding TikTok’s future in the US.

For those interested in the intersection of digital advertising, AI, and user experience, this episode provides valuable insights into how Pinterest is navigating and leading within this dynamic landscape.

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Timestamp References:

• 03:56 – Publicis Group Acquisition Discussion
• 04:50 – T-Mobile's AdTech Moves
• 06:30 – T-Mobile’s Determination
• 06:50 – RGA's Privatization Concerns
• 07:29 – Target’s Retail Media Comparisons
• 08:52 – Target’s Growth Potential
• 10:06 – TikTok Deadline and Speculations
• 12:26 – Comparison to Google’s Cookie Deprecation
• 13:16 – YouTube Premium Lite Launch
• 15:36 – Potential Subscriber Reactions
• 16:23 – Promotion of "Moms at Work" Podcast
• 17:37 – Host Endorsement of New Podcast
• 21:43 – Pinterest's Revenue Shift Explanation
• 24:18 – AI Solutions Driving Ad Performance
• 27:39 – Balancing Ad Load and User Experience
• 31:49 – Metrics for User Tolerance
• 36:42 – AI and Ad Relevancy Success
• 43:26 – AI Investments and Data Utilization
• 44:43 – Transparency and Ad Flexibility
• 48:55 – AI Transparency with Advertisers
• 53:14 – Pinterest’s Unique Positioning
• 55:31 – Closing Remarks

Transcript

[Kamika McCoy]

Discover the future of AI powered digital experiences. Adobe Summit returns to Las Vegas March 17th through 20th. Learn from global brand leaders like Coca Cola, Unilever, eli Lely, Marriott, JP Morgan Chase and more. Plus, choose from more than 250 expert led sessions and hands on labs including a generative AI learning track. Use code digidaypod for $200 off a full conference pass. For more information, visit adobe.com google.

[Tim Peterson]

Hello and welcome to the Digiday Podcast. My name is Tim Peterson. I'm the executive editor of Video and Audio at Digide.

[Kamika McCoy]

And I'm Kamika McCoy, senior marketing reporter here at Digiday.

[Tim Peterson]

What's up Kameka? How's your weekend?

[Kamika McCoy]

It was pretty good, no complaints. How was yours?

[Tim Peterson]

Yeah, no complaints. I wasn't at south by, so I am more than happy I've been to South By. I got that out of my system. Christina Manlos, our senior marketing editor, is at south by, so God love her for doing that, but she's put out some nice coverage. She had the marketing briefing this week that came out yesterday. Talking about South By.

[Kamika McCoy]

Absolutely, yeah. If you're on the ground, I hope you're in Austin eating all of the good Tex Mex and barbecue that you can and enjoying south by Southwest and Godspeed to you. But we do have Christina Monos on the ground there. Today's briefing or yesterday's briefing, excuse me, did focus on the creator economy and how the creators are showing up in a bigger way there. So if you have not already read that coverage, I encourage you to do so later on in this episode. We've also got an interview with. I say we by meaning I have an interview with Bill Watkins, the chief revenue officer at Pinterest. Love we. Language.

[Tim Peterson]

The royal we.

[Kamika McCoy]

We talked about Pinterest latest earnings and talked a little bit about, I guess Pinterest has quietly been pitching and battling for ad dollars, you know, against behemoths like Meta and Whatnot, even other tertiary players like Snap and Whatnot. And they've been making that batter cry a little bit louder. I guess if that's how you want to pitch it. Focusing on some lower funnel activities and AI to. To pull in some more ad dollars.

[Tim Peterson]

Gotta have AI on the pitch deck. It's not a pitch deck in 2025 without AI.

[Kamika McCoy]

Exactly, exactly. But before we get to the interview with Watkins, we've got some. Drumroll please. Juicy scoops.

[Tim Peterson]

And AI does figure into them because one of the big news pieces of the past week is Publicist Group acquiring loadamy and a lot of that seems to have to do with AI. It also seems to have to do with Interpublic Group and Omnicom Media Group coming together. So Marty Swan led our coverage of this acquisition and lo2me brings a lot of data into Publicis Group and it'll be part of Publicis Epsilon Group, which is its data kind of programmatic arm. And so much of Marty's coverage focused on how much data Publicis is going to have and how it's going to be able to use that for its know, AI systems on behalf of clients, yada yada yada. It just, it felt very of a piece with how Omnicom and IPG have talked about that acquisition, how I think it was Brian Lesser from Group M had talked about, you know, Group M wanting to kind of federate Identity. It seems like that's sort of the idea here with Publicis and load me is they want to kind of in a way federate Identity to have all of that be handled more at the client side side of things as opposed to being centralized inside of Publicis as it sounds like it's been currently.

[Kamika McCoy]

Yeah, you could almost pitch this as like merger and acquisition season, especially within the ad tech space. Right. Because publicist Lomy is one. But you've also got T Mobile, which recently confirmed its acquisition of Bliss, which is a UK adtech startup for $175 million. They've also since acquired Vistar Media which is a digital out of home company. All of this kind of speaks to the idea of wanting. Well, all of this kind of speaks to the idea, in my opinion about how the industry is kind of fueling this narrative of everything is an ad network. Right. If the last couple of years was them building out these technologies as an offering in the first place, now I think there's like more than 200 retail media networks themselves and that doesn't even talk about like the other ad offerings like the Trade Desk and things like this, where there's just a bigger play to stand out amongst the competition. And that seems to be kind of what's. What's being flicked at here.

[Tim Peterson]

Right. Although it's interesting because with T Mobile and this was called out in the story that I think it was Ronan Shields and Seb Joseph wrote for Digiday. But they called out T Mobile's kind of the last of the cell phone companies, cell service companies to be in advertising at. And T tried that back in the day with back in the day 2018, 2019 timeframe with advertising AppNexus as well as with WarnerMedia, decided, Nah, that's not really going to work for us. Got out of that business that they renamed Xander. Verizon had tried this as well with the AOL Yahoo roll up. Didn't really work out. Got out of that business. But here's T Mobile saying, well, let's give us a shot. Although the timing does make sense because since Verizon and AT&T tried this out and exited those businesses, the retail media networks were ascend in, which was basically just like companies that have customer data for normal reasons of having customer data, actually service customers as opposed to serve customers with ads all over the Internet. And now T Mobile saying, yeah, let's do effectively our own retail media network by doing these roll ups with Vistar and now with Bliss.

[Kamika McCoy]

Exactly. I imagine T Mobile's thinking here is like, there's a children's story about this is the sword of Excalibur where everybody else tries to pull out the rock and T Mobile's like, you know what? I see others have tried before, but we are going to be the ones that pulls this sword out of this godforsaken rock. So we'll see.

[Tim Peterson]

Sure, yeah, leave it to T Mobile. But like you mentioned, there's been a lot of M and A recently, even just last week, because then last week also RGA is going back to being a privately owned company after 23 years being part of IPG, which feels notable.

[Kamika McCoy]

Yeah, I would say so. That also speaks toward the greater landscape of private equities buying things up. You do have to question how that kind of lands. Historically we've seen a private equity firm come in and immediately things go on the chopping block. So that is what the immediate question that gets raised for. For rga, there's.

[Tim Peterson]

Yeah, yeah. And then on, you know, the other side of things is like we were talking about with T Mobile, of everything's an ad network, retail media networks being ascendant. Target had their earnings report and you were the one who called this out as being particularly notable in light of everything else we've been talking about here.

[Kamika McCoy]

Yeah, man. My favorite topic, retail media and everything is an ad network. So Target released their Q4 earnings and the numbers for the business was largely flat. But their retail media business showed some growth. Right. So they made $649 million in revenue. And I do want to note that Cara Sylvester, their chief guest, guest experience officer, excuse me, said Target sees a path forward for Roundel to kind of double in size here. I want to put these numbers into perspective, though. Walmart has been really giving retail media networks a run for their money. Not so much Amazon, because Amazon is retail media kingpin and kingpin and a lot of other areas, especially retail media. They recently reported ad revenues of 17 billion. Meanwhile, Walmart's ad business grew and they raked in 4.4 billion. Right. So you've got Amazon with 17 billion and then you've got Walmart with 4 billion and then you've got Target which had 649 million. So not to say that it's not shaping itself up, but it's got some stiff competition from the likes of Walmart and Amazon. It's still listed across the top five. I've talked to media buyers in the past who have kind of critiqued its offering, saying it's been slow to roll out tools, self service and things like that. So maybe Target is listening and making some changes and that's being reflected in its most recent earnings.

[Tim Peterson]

But yes, well, yeah, because I mean even if it doubles in five years and let's say Walmart's ad business doesn't grow whatsoever, Targets would still be like a third the size of Walmart's.

[Kamika McCoy]

Yeah.

[Tim Peterson]

Business. So that's still. And maybe the goal isn't to be as big as Walmart's business, but these are major retailers. That doesn't seem like being a large, being a large business is part of the business for Target and Walmart. You don't sell groceries and electronics and diapers and birthday cards without trying to just be. Make as much money as you can.

[Kamika McCoy]

That is exactly it. We'll see how this shakes out because Target has recently, like I mentioned with the numbers been on the up and up. But it's to be seen how much of, how much of that is sustainable one and how much of it really, you know, if it stands to take any ad dollars away from the likes of Amazon and Walmart or if it's kind of taking from those longer tail players.

[Tim Peterson]

Right. Or like to what extent the longer tail players start to take from the shorter tail players. There isn't really a term for like the other end of the long tail, the head.

[Kamika McCoy]

Just been calling them top. The range from top three to top five, I think it's Amazon, Walmart, Kroger, Albertsons and Target. Sometimes Instacart is in there. They fluctuate depending on who you're talking to. But yeah, big five and then longer tail players.

[Tim Peterson]

So speaking of things to be seen, the TikTok ban or divestment or some third option that is unforeseen at the moment, but then again, everything's unforeseen at the moment. So we're what, less than a month at this point before the 70 day deadline? 75 day deadline is up and it doesn't feel like there's been a ton of movement. Right.

[Kamika McCoy]

Movement nor urgency to get this done. As of this morning, it has been reported that President Trump says there are four bidders in play for a TikTok deal, quote, unquote, soon. No details, just four players and we'll see.

[Tim Peterson]

Yeah, yeah. And like Alexis Ohanian, I think is one of the latest to be part of one of those four groups. At least we assume he's one of the four groups.

[Kamika McCoy]

Yeah.

[Tim Peterson]

That Trump was referring to. But Trump didn't specify who those four groups are, so it's kind of anyone's guess. Maybe anyone with billions of dollars at their disposal could be in one of those groups.

[Kamika McCoy]

So back in January, the buyers that were reported Interested Elon Musk, Mr. Beast, Kevin O'Leary from Shark Tank, Larry Ellison from Oracle, Steve Mnuchin, former US Treasury Secretary, Perplexity as well, and Microsoft. Those were some of the bigger contenders that were reported back in January, in addition to Mr. Serena Williams, if you will.

[Tim Peterson]

Yeah. And so, I mean, again, less than a month before this deadline, but this deadline is kind of arbitrary in the first place. So for all we know, it seems like we could just run back the January 19th experience all over again. Right. Or do you, do you think this could go a different way this time?

[Kamika McCoy]

No, I'm not confident that it goes a different way. We've been talking about a TikTok ban since even Biden's presidency.

[Tim Peterson]

Well, since Trump's first term.

[Kamika McCoy]

Oh my God, you're right. Yeah. So it's. I almost, it's been years at this point. I'm, I'm giving it the similar treatment to like Google's third party cookie deprecation. Again, the worst will they or won't they movie plot I've ever seen in my life.

[Tim Peterson]

Yeah. There are kindergarteners who have never lived a day without there being a question of TikTok's future in the US not that a four and a half year old would necessarily care about that, but maybe.

[Kamika McCoy]

Yeah. I even think you're seeing it with like media buyers and marketers where there is a continuation of spending on TikTok because, you know, it's up in the air. Not to say that they're not using meta platforms as well, but everyone that I've talked to been like, yeah, well, if they actually ban it. We'll see. But until then, it's working.

[Tim Peterson]

Yeah, yeah, it's kind of. Everyone seems to have that same. Well, we'll just see if it ever happens at this point. Kind of like Google and the cookie. Although that is not one of our news stories this week, thank God. But we do have a Google related news story for our third item and that is YouTube. So last week YouTube announced a new tier of its subscription service called Premium lite. It'll cost $7.99 per month and it'll allow subscribers to watch most videos on YouTube without ads. Not all videos, music videos and shorts will still carry ads, but that's still a lot of YouTube that people will be able to watch without ads.

[Kamika McCoy]

You're going to have to carry me on that one because I still don't know what you guys are watching on YouTube. If anybody has any recommendations as to what people are watching, please let me know. But do you think that this will be, I guess, are people going to pay for this? There are already so many subscriptions.

[Tim Peterson]

Yeah, I wonder. It's a weird strategy for YouTube to do this because usually if you're introducing the mid tier, it's more of an ads tier as opposed to being more of an ad free tier. But in this case it's more of an ad free tier except with those kind of relatively small exceptions. Although I think it does speak to. A lot of people use YouTube to listen to music and that's where like it being part of music videos makes sense. What I was surprised about is that they didn't call out like podcasts as being another content type that would be carrying ads on this tier. Maybe that'll happen at some point in the future. Maybe YouTube hasn't been able to make enough of a distinction on like what are the podcast videos. That said, YouTube does talk a lot of. We talked about it last week how YouTube was saying it had a billion people that have watched or listened to a video podcast on the platform before. So it is able to make that distinction. But yeah, it's, it's. I was surprised at like the parameters for this premium light tier because it's not the same as like Netflix or Disney plus where they have the. Their version of a premium light tier which is their ad supported tier.

[Kamika McCoy]

Yeah, I think, I think it's to be seen if this converts even more subscribers. I also like how we leave every juicy scoop with a we'll see ending.

[Tim Peterson]

That's always the case. But yeah, I mean that is the case though. Like we'll see because we don't know if this is designed to get people who are on the free tier to start paying for YouTube or if it's for people who are on the high end tier, like the fully ad free tier where YouTube has been raising the price over the past few years to still be paying for YouTube but just like be able to kind of settle down to a lower price tier as opposed to churning out altogether.

[Kamika McCoy]

Yeah, yeah, save those coins. Especially in this economy. Before we get into the interview, Quick Note DJ sibling publication Work Life has a new podcast out now. Work Life presents Moms at Work, which is hosted by worklife Founding Editor and Digital Senior Media Editor Jess Davis. It takes a look at the challenges the working moms face and the choices employers can make to better support them. With a mix of Jess's personal story interviews and other working moms and interviews, experts and HR professionals. You can find it wherever you get your podcast. You can also find it on worklife news and digiday.com we'll link to it in the show Notes.

[Tim Peterson]

Yeah, I had a chance to listen to it over the weekend, the first episode being out and it's really solid. Obviously biased because Sarah Patterson, our producer, also worked on this Jess, who's now part of the media team here at Digiday, but they put a lot of really great work into this and it has a really nice, interesting balance between really solid reporting, solid journalism, but also a really personal feel. And it's very much a personal story for Jess. So I, I got a lot out of listening to it. I think our listeners will get a lot out of listening to it as well.

[Kamika McCoy]

Fantastic. So excited for that.

[Tim Peterson]

Now let's kick it over to the interview. But Kamika, remind me, who did you talk to this week?

[Kamika McCoy]

Yeah, of course. So this week we talked to Pinterest Chief Revenue Officer Bill Watkins. Pinterest had a pretty big heyday when it came to their most recent earnings, so we talked to them about how that's going, how their ad business is shaping up, and how they've converted themselves from selling views to selling clicks and conversions to gobble up some more ad dollars. So boosting ad load while not pissing off users was a big point of conversation between Bill and I. So hope you guys like it.

[Tim Peterson]

Seems to dovetail nicely with what we talked about between everything being an out network and then YouTube's new premium lights here. So I'm excited to hear the conversation.

[Kamika McCoy]

Thank you so much.

[Tim Peterson]

Discover The Future of AI Powered Digital Experiences Adobe Summit returns to Las Vegas, March 17th through 20th. Learn from global brand leaders like Coca Cola, Unilever, eli Lilly, Marriott, JPMorgan Chase and more. Plus, choose from more than 250 expert led sessions and hands on labs, including a generative AI learning track. Use code digidaypod for $200 off a full conference pass. For more information, visit adobe.com go digita.

[Kamika McCoy]

Hello. Hello Bill. Welcome to the podcast. So glad to have you here.

[Bill Watkins]

Miko. Thank you so much for having me. It's a thrill.

[Kamika McCoy]

Fantastic. So we're here obviously to talk about Pinterest, latest earnings, how we've built out some of our lower funnel activities and ad offerings. But I always like to start my conversations with a fun question that cool?

[Bill Watkins]

Of course.

[Kamika McCoy]

So for my fun question, I'm going to have you name a Pinterest board that you have. I have one for kitchen renovation. My most interesting one is called Foods that I'll Never make. That's dedicated to recipes that I have indeed made. So you tell me yours.

[Bill Watkins]

You know, the example I give all the time. It's actually one of the first boards that I've, I've ever created. It's just called Our Home. And I think it speaks to the journey that my family's been on in just, you know, the turning the house that we've purchased into truly the Watkins home. And fun fact, almost every piece of furniture that you see in there now we've purchased along the line. So it's truly Pinterest coming to life and really proud of that.

[Kamika McCoy]

Did you get that through the shopping pins on Pinterest?

[Bill Watkins]

You know what, way back when we actually had commerce enabled on Pinterest with viable pins that actually we ended up deprecating it because we didn't know what we didn't know. And we had a lot to learn along our shopping journey. But I have, yes, some of them I have actually purchased through the old buyable or shoppable pins, but most of them here, especially in the last two years, as we've seen our shopping capability improve dramatically, have just had such a fun opportunity to have great experiences with merchants, home merchants, big and small, be it from furniture or decor. So yeah, it's been a lot of fun.

[Kamika McCoy]

Perfect. I love a good transition because that's exactly what we're here to talk about. Dig deeper into that now. I think what, what is most exciting about this conversation is that Pinterest has been reshaping itself, right, as a performance marketing platform for years. And it looks like that bet is finally paying off the platform Posted its first ever billion dollar quarter recently. And I want to talk about how that happened, bypassing the obvious answer, which is right ad, right person, right place, right time, right. And have you kind of walk me through how your team was able to get that performance to play off in a $1.2 billion Q4 revenue. How did we make the FL upper funnel to lower funnel revenue?

[Bill Watkins]

Well, it's been a journey, you know, and I've been at Pinterest for quite some time. I've been at Pinterest for over a decade, 11 years now. And two things have been universally true that entire time. Nine out of 10 users want to come to get inspired and discover new things. And also a majority of our users want to shop that which they discover, but kind of through the arc of Pinterest. You know, I'd say, you know, we're in our third chapter as a company. That first chapter was all about getting the foundations and the basics right. In our second chapter, I feel like we laid the foundations for our performance advertising suite, but we kind of lost our way a bit on the core product side. And we were really taking a look at what other platforms were doing. And I think what we were really missing was really underscoring, celebrating and investing in that which makes Pinterest unique. And different folks are coming into one app that has both feed and search. Users that want to discover, be inspired, but also shop. And also a place where our users are saving products into boards or otherwise known shopping lists of things that they're going to go plan, do and buy in their own lives. I would say since the middle of 2022, every investment that we are making in the company is into those things that makes Pinterest unique, indifferent. And one of the largest bits of investment has been into shopping. You know, we've gone from hundreds of thousands to billions of SKUs. We've invested heavily in artificial intelligence. We're not just seeing our users grow, but we're seeing our engagement grow just on the core product side because of, you know, the greater relevancy, the greater product selection, but relevancy that the product has. And then in turn, how do you use the unique data asset that we have of pins organized into boards and the AI technology that we have to build a better AI driven ad solution. And of course, that's Pinterest performance plus. And I would say just the combination of the investment in shopping, having more SKUs, more auction density, and really leveraging the signal that we have to have an AI first solution. The results that we're seeing from Pinterest Performance plus, they're astounding. I think it's the mixture kimiko of multiple things that have really propelled us to where we are. The last thing I would say is, you know, this is in this, in this most recent chapter of Pinterest. We're just getting going. We're so thrilled with the results that we posted in Q4. But you know, from what we see now and what we're planning for this year, we're excited to keep the momentum going.

[Kamika McCoy]

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I do want to have you kind of walk me through the, the, you know, given that you've been at Pinterest for as long as you've been through, you know, and seeing it through these iterations, like what did the ad products look like, the ad offerings look like when we're mostly upper funnel revenue versus what they look like now? Right. How did we kind of flip that switch and what did the build out of ad offerings look like around that.

[Bill Watkins]

You know, five years ago we were predominantly selling views. I think that's the headline. And to, to transform the company to your point where a third of our revenue was in the lower funnel, where today two thirds of our revenue is in the lower funnel. And to do that with the incredible growth that we've been seeing on the ad revenue side, I think it speaks to the products that we're building and the performance that it drives for our advertisers. But as I was mentioning earlier, first, it starts with getting the right demand in the system and going out and making sure that we've ingested the right volume of SKUs from the right volume of merchants, trusted merchants, and these are merchants that are, that are big and small and making sure that we're listening to our advertising partners, that we know what their goals are, that we're very clear on their measurement, source of truth. And with every single product iteration that we're understanding how we're performing and we're using that, those fast feedback loops as signal to making sure that we're always making the product offering smarter, better, more efficient and you know, from going from selling views to selling clicks and ultimately selling conversions for advertisers to be where we are now with, with, with P. With Pinterest Performance plus. And we have an end to end AI solution across. If it's, you know, creative bidding, budgets, targeting and so forth, you can do that in a bundled fashion or you can do that in a feature by feature fashion as well. We want to make sure that we're giving optionality to our partners and how they're buying us as well as how they're measuring us. And that would be my second point. The measurement solutions that we have today versus what we had five years ago, it's changed tremendously. So clearly we have our conversion API or CAPI solution and a majority of our lower funnel revenue is covered with capi or if not capi, with a privacy resilient measurement solution. So we understand how we're performing for our partners, but we're using that signal to further invest in the product, to make the performance of P or any of our ad products up and down the funnel perform better. But we now have nearly 100 measurement partners onboarded at Pinterest and we want to make sure that however you as an advertiser measure success, we have the right solution for you. Clearly we have. If it's conversion API or other first party measurement solutions, we're very proud of those. But we understand oftentimes advertisers are triangulating measurement across multiple solutions and we want to make sure that we have all the solutions for advertising partners. So I would say that's the primary difference. It's going from selling views to selling clicks and conversions with a fully end to end AI automated solution number one. And number two, just the diversity of measurement partners to make sure that we have not just visibility into how we perform, but we can use that to make our products better.

[Kamika McCoy]

Yeah, I think we talked a little bit about kind of the what this means for advertisers. Obviously we know what this means for Pinterest, but I would be interested in also talking about what this means for the users. Right. Pinterest experimenting with with ad load to determine kind of what people's tolerance are and kind of how you can serve those things up for the clicks and conversions and whatnot. So talk to me a little bit about what that experimentation looks like with, you know, increased decrease ad load. How do you guys kind of experiment with that again?

[Bill Watkins]

First bring it back to the mission of the company to bring everyone the inspiration to go create a life they love. So it starts with inspiration and discovery of things like new products. But that's only half of the mission. And the other half of the mission is to go create, do buy these things in your life to make your life better. And in the context of ad load, I think this first starts with the values that we have that underpin that mission and the number one value that we have had at Pinterest. Since I've joined the company over 11 years. AGO is how we put our user, we call our user our pinner, how we put our pinner first in everything that we do. We will never be shortsighted for revenue and we will always put our user first. But given the difference of who Pinterest is, folks are coming to get inspired, but they're coming to shop. The commercial intent that we have, it's fundamentally different than our competitors. Moreover, the data asset that we have is fundamentally different than our competitors. Folks have saved a half a trillion 500 billion pins into around 5 billion boards over the last decade. That data construct is completely unique and different. And I think that's important also in the context of the signal that we have and how we use that to ensure that we're driving the best experience, be it on the core product side or on the advertising side. So with that as a little bit of context, as we experiment with ad load, I think it's also important to note we view ads on Pinterest as content. A shopping feed from Amazon or from a Shopify merchant that can be shown organically or that can be shown through a paid ad. But with the data asset that we have, what we know about our users, we're surprising and delighting. We're having our users discover that be it in home feed or in traditional search or related search, when you tap on a pin and scroll up everything underneath that, that's visual discovery. And what we're finding is even as we're increasing ad load in certain pockets of the surface, at the exact same time, the relevancy of our ads is going up. Lastly, of course, we're using systems and tools, but also human intervention to ensure not just as ad load goes up, that ad relevance goes up, but of course, that we need our users and our user engagement to go up. And I'm proud to report that across all four dimensions, as we experiment with ad load increases, it would never trade off on those other three. So to be able to sit here and say we are seeing ad load increases, double digit increase in ad load increases, we're also seeing double digit increases in ad relevancy, while we're also seeing double digit increases in user growth and user engagement gains. And I think again, this just really underscores and supports the point. Ads on Pinterest are content in the ads that we have and the shopping capability that we have, that's what our users want and how that then translates into performance. Especially when you take all that signal and you're harnessing the power of our AI solution and Pinterest performance. Plus it's driving better results for advertisers. And it's doing that not just in the lower funnel with merchants, but up and down the stack. And I think that's what gets us really excited for the future.

[Kamika McCoy]

You've mentioned signals and I want to kind of, you know, double down on that there. I think with any company that's pursuing growth, any platform, excuse me, that's performing growth, there's a point of contention between striking the right balance with ads while also maintaining the user experience. Right. So talk to me a little bit about how, what, what are the signals that helps Pinterest determine what a user's tolerance is? Right. Kind of. What are we looking at to determine that?

[Bill Watkins]

Yeah, I think one, how often is that user coming back to the service? How often are they pinning, what are they clicking on when they click out, how much time are they spending off site? And ultimately especially through conversion API, can we see that we're helping to lead them to a high quality conversion. Those are just a sampling of what I would call a basket of metrics that we review diligently on a daily basis, again in a machine learning and systems based way, but also with human intervention to make sure that everything we are doing on Pinterest, it is in the best service of our users and helping our users fulfill the mission that we have as a company. Help them to inspire and discover, but also to go create this life that they love. And oftentimes this is now on Pinterest, all about shopping. And I talked about this earlier. We've gone from hundreds of thousands of SKUs to billions of SKUs on the platform and a majority of our users are coming to shop. In particular, our Gen Z users are coming to shop. Our Gen Z users, they are our largest audience now. They are our fastest growing audience on the platform. They're also 2 and a half x more engaged than other generational cohorts on the platform. When you talk to Gen Z and you ask them why are they coming to Pinterest, they'll tell you two things. One, they'll tell you they're coming to Pinterest to shop. The second thing that they'll tell you about Pinterest is they truly value who we are as a platform. We haven't talked about this that much, but at Pinterest we take our approach to inspiration, positivity and specifically engineering the most positive app on the Internet that really helps to deliver strong mental health for our users. We take that incredibly seriously. Gen Z notices that and they actually call that out as a primary reason why they use the platform. So whether it be for Gen Z or for any audience on the platform, we want to make sure that we're just delivering the absolute best experience for them throughout their entire consumer journey, whatever it is that they're coming to the platform that day. We take the privacy of their data, we take the user experience incredibly, incredibly seriously. We are monitoring this frequently to make sure that we're creating that best experience and obviously everything on the ad side that it's helping to deliver against their needs based off of what we see and based off of what we know they're interested in.

[Kamika McCoy]

Yeah. Does ad placement feed into that at all?

[Bill Watkins]

What we're finding it's interesting with performance plus, you know, it's interesting. There was a recent case study with Pandora. I can give two one Pandora and one Prada, but I think the headline for both is the same. With Pandora we saw a 73% increase in ROAS, a 79% increase in checkout volumes and a 44% increase in efficiency in their CPAs. Driving those sorts of results. We are seeing the ability to do that, be that in a retargeted ad in our home feed or in a search text query ad in our search inventory area as well as within related search. When you tap on a pin and scroll up, that's our visual search surface area. We're seeing the ability with increased shopping behavior on the platform as well as just more skewed density and our end to end solution with P, the ability, regardless of ad format or ad placement to be able to drive these incredibly strong results. And you know, with Prada it's been very similar with Prada we've been able I think to drive very impressive results for them up and down the stack. But in particular with p seen a 64% decrease in their CPA so far, more efficient CPA and a 30% increase in their conversion rate. These are just two specific advertiser examples. But on average what we're seeing since launching P in about the middle of last year, we've been seeing our ability to drive about at minimum around a 20% efficiency gain across the board. The last thing I would say is most recently we launched P Creative. When it comes to dynamic creative optimization and the ability based off of the audience to serve the most relevant shoppable, high performant ad, we're thrilled to see the very early results there. On average we're seeing around a 14% increase in conversion rate and about a 10% decrease in CPA. Or we're seeing significant gains in CPA efficiency to be able to do that, be it across Home Feed search or related search in the platform. I think just speaks to the commercial intent of our users and how those ads are content.

[Kamika McCoy]

Yeah, I know I'm harping on this a lot, but I do want to just kind of, I guess, wrap my head around it. What, you know, going back to the idea of, like, signals and whatnot, what are the signals to Pinterest that a user has moved down the funnel and is ready for that increased ad load. Right. Talk to me a little bit about that.

[Bill Watkins]

Yeah, I would just cite a typical user journey on the platform coming in through the Home Feed, what they're closing up on, what they're clicking on, what they're engaging with when they're in that headspace in feed, but also what they're searching on. We have about 7 billion text queries every single month. We have a massive search platform. Interestingly enough, a third of the user experience on Pinterest takes place in Feed. Two thirds takes place in Search Search or related search. When you tap on a pin and scroll up, we view that as a visual search query and as a visual search result, similar to when you're typing something into just our traditional text query search bar. And when it comes to signals like what is someone searching on? Or what is someone tapping on? And then from there, maybe within the pin, we have our lens technology where you can literally search within a pin and close up on different items. If it's something within the roomscape that you're within and you like this vase here, and you want to just zoom in on a particular item, we'll then render to that visual search query relevant results that are very, very shoppable. But we're clearly taking a look at the activity on the service and we're using that to make sure, hey, are we improving that user experience? Are we driving an increase in user engagement? Something else that's very important again, because we sit on a mountain of Data signal over 500 billion pins that have been organized into 10 billion boards or shopping lists over the last decade. We know oftentimes what you're interested in and what you're going to be interested in. So we'll also measure if someone comes in with an affinity for one interest. There's lateral exploration on Pinterest, where they're going to discover interest in different categories. How are we doing in that area? Are we doing well? Are there opportunities to improve? What can we do to make the experience better? But bringing it all the way back to, as it pertains to monetization. We will always put our user first. We'll never be shortsighted for revenue. We are taking a look at specifically ad relevance as well as user growth and user engagement growth. And the thought is these things all need to be growing in parallel to drive the best experience. And I'm really, really proud of the results that we're able to drive and to be able to say that, you know, that's something that we're doing day in and day out.

[Kamika McCoy]

We talked about the user experience and I want to flip back to the advertiser. Right. I think the first thing, if I was advertiser hearing this pitch or thinking about this, the first thing that would come to my head is like for these lower funnel activities and the performance driven activities, right. And the increased ad loads, the first thing that come to my mind is like on the surface, yeah, more ads, more clicks, more revenue. No brainer, right. So as you're talking, kind of like what, how do you square that from your pov?

[Bill Watkins]

Well, what I think we've seen over the last two and a half years, we have seen it in an evolving ad market and what we have seen in that ad market very clear. It doesn't matter if you are advertising in the upper funnel and you do not have conversion visibility or if you're a merchant advertising in the lower funnel and you own the transaction. The focus on performance up and down the funnel has been overwhelmingly clear. Advertisers are voting with their dollars. And along those lines, as we've invested in our ads AI capability, we've also invested heavily, as we were saying, into our measurement capability. With nearly 100 measurement partners, we have our conversion API and are there first party solutions. But we want to make sure, however you as an advertiser measures success up and down the funnel, that we have that measurement partner. We also know your goals, we're tracking performance against your goals and we're optimizing to ensure that we're meeting or exceeding your goals. I guess where I'm going with this is the landscape has never been more focused on performance. And for me to be able to sit here today and say that in 2024 we more than doubled our advertising revenue year over year growth rates and specifically in Q4 we had our first ever billion dollar quarter and we grew 18% in Q4. That's, that's, that's, that's based off of the results that we're able to drive for our partners to Be able to sit here and say we had the largest holiday season that we have ever had on Pinterest, specifically during the Cyber5. We had the largest Cyber5 that we've ever had at the company. Not just in the revenue that we realized on the platform, but the conversions that we drove during that time for our advertisers. It just comes back to the investments that we're making in the company. We're investing a lot right now in visual search and visual discovery and we talked to, and we're investing heavily in AI to drive better, better relevancy for our users on the core product side, but also to drive better results on the advertising side. But at the end of the day, you know, what we're able to do is due to the results we're able to drive for our advertising partners. So that's something that, you know, we don't take, we don't take lightly. That's something that we study on a daily basis. And you know, we have a hunger, we have this passion to constantly improve the service and in this context, the results for advertisers. And again, it doesn't matter if you're buying video from us in the upper funnel and our ability to perform in media mix models or if you're buying search from us in the lower funnel and we're performing on a three day last click attribution model, we gotta be laser focused on having the right solutions, having those solutions be AI enabled and automated, knowing your goals and exceeding your goals. And I think if we do those things, we're set up well for success. And, and that's a primary input into what I think is driving our momentum now, but gets me really excited for the future.

[Kamika McCoy]

Absolutely. The other half of this which we've touched on but we haven't really hunkered down on, is the concept of AI. Right. It's a big space right now. So talk to me a little bit about the investment in AI, generative AI from a ad perspective. Right. And kind of how that's helped boost with the lower funnel ad loads and things like this.

[Bill Watkins]

Well, AI is only as good as the data set that it trains on. So I'll start there. And again, we have 500 billion pins that have been organized into over 10 billion boards. These boards are collections of things that folks have found on the web and within Pinterest. I view them as shopping lists, but they're such a high intent, high commercial intent surface for us, telling us, you know, what a user is planning to go do in their lives. Experiences that they're going to take, products that they're going to buy. These are kind of the inputs into helping us on the second half of our mission. The first half being to go bring everyone the inspiration, but to go create a life they love. And again, when we've seen so many gains in SKU ingestion, from hundreds of thousands to billions of SKUs in the platform, and be it a product pin or any pin on the platform, to see brands and merchants be saved into boards, our users are saving those brands into the fabric of their own lives. That is a very unique data signal. It's a very unique data asset. So our AI and any AI investment that we make, it gets to train on that very unique data signal.

[Kamika McCoy]

Okay.

[Bill Watkins]

And that's one thing I would say. The second thing, like any tech company, we've been investing in AI for a decade. And on Pinterest, our AI investments, they really manifest in a couple of different ways, but the first is just the gains that we're seeing in user growth but relevancy. On Pinterest, we invest heavily in GPUs and our large language models. They're 100 times larger today than they were just 12 months ago. But you're seeing that show up in our ability consistent consistently over the last many quarters, not just in Q4, the last many quarters, we're driving double digit growth in users. We're also driving double digit growth in engagement, user engagement. That tells us that the users that we have, they're staying longer and they're coming back more often. And they would only do that if the experience that they're having is more relevant to them. And it is a more relevant experience for them because of the AI enabled discovery that we create on Pinterest. So that's one thing I would say with our AI investments. Secondarily, that data asset that we have, that I mentioned, the PIN board construct, that is a primary data construct as well, that Pinterest Performance plus or P really harnesses to drive better results. And again, on average, ultimately the lagging indicator of success there is our ability to drive better performance metrics. And when you take a look at it, while we do see that ad impressions are increasing because ads on Pinterest are content and they're doing so in a double digit fashion, we're seeing double digit growth in ad relevance. Again, typically you don't see that. You might think that as ad load goes up, ad relevancy would go down. They might be in conflict with one another. Not on Pinterest, we are seeing ad impressions and ad relevancy grow in tandem and at the same time we're seeing user growth and engagement gains as well. And I think again that just underscores the fact that ads on Pinterest are content, but those ads, we have the ability to serve those ads on a very unique data asset that now leverages our ads AI solution, Pinterest Performance Plus. And on average if we're seeing about a 20% gain in efficiency and really regardless of the partner we're seeing those numbers hold, that tells me that our investments in AI, they're driving better results, better returns for our advertisers. And ultimately that's my responsibility to make sure that my teams know our clients goals, we're matching the right solution set against it such that we are meeting and exceeding the goals for all of our partners. And the last thing I would say is insofar as our AI investment, if you go back and take a look at when we really started investing heavily in our performance advertising solution and going from selling views to clicks and conversions and to then also investing in not just the AI based ad server, but having Pinterest performance plus, it's unsurprising then that during that exact same time we've seen 2/3 of our revenue go from being in the upper funnel to now 2/3 of our revenue being in the lower funnel. I think that's the ultimate KPI for is AI driving better performance for advertisers. I don't think you see that mix shift. While Pinterest revenue has grown significantly, you don't see that unless the AI is working as intended. And oh by the way, the more data that we have, the better and the stronger that AI solution will be. So really excited for the momentum that we have, but for where we're going and the direction that we're headed there.

[Kamika McCoy]

Absolutely. The last thing that I want to ask is continuing on the AI beat here. There's a lot of, I won't say we're still part of the AI hype cycle. There's obviously AI to an extent has proven itself, but I am curious. It's often criticized as being this black box. No one knows what it is, but it's provocative. So talk to me a little bit about kind of what the transparency look like with advertisers from there. Are they able to kind of get in and see the nuts and bolts or how does that work?

[Bill Watkins]

That's an excellent question. And I think there's a couple of different things that I would say on that. But the first is, as I had mentioned earlier, you can leverage Pinterest Performance plus in a bundled fashion where everything is taking place within that one bundled environment. Or if you're not comfortable with that, or perhaps you might want to test, you know, the viability of each individual feature. Well, we give advertisers that optionality as well. You can unbundle and test feature per feature per feature. You know, so be it for bids or budgets across roas or you know, index based buying, or if it's for the targeting that you're using or the dynamic creative optimization in P Creative, we can measure all of these individually. And ultimately, if you're to use, whether it's the bundle or p, there are 50% less inputs now to buy an ad on Pinterest than there was just a year ago. So we're trying to be efficient whether you're doing the bundle or whether you're doing the feature by feature testing. But we're really, really, I think, proud of how we've engineered what that solution is in the results that it's driving for our partners. The other thing I would say too, just about transparency, but also leading the way, whether it be around AI or whether it be around industry leading policy. We were the first because all of this has to do with the data signal that a platform has and how we're all using our signals to create the best experiences for our users. But you know, when people say that Pinterest is the positive corner of the Internet, when people say that Pinterest is the most brand safe advertising platform that's out there, that is not by accident, that is deliberate and that is by design. You know, before it was en vogue, Pinterest banned political ads, Pinterest banned anti vax. You know, yeah, Pinterest has developed, I think industry leading AI around diversity, inclusion and belonging. These are things that we were doing back in 2016-2017-2018-2019. This isn't something that we've just gone out and have done in the last 24 months. Of course, the AI that we have, be it for the core product or the ad product, it builds upon the data assets that we have that are governed by the policies that we have. Meaning. We've put a lot of effort into not just engineering the best experience, but having the right policies to make sure that when you are on Pinterest you are feeling inspired as you are discovering new things, as you are shopping, you feel safe and secure, that you're in a positive environment. That is something that we take incredibly seriously. Day in and day out, quite frankly, it is a motivating factor for everybody that works at Pinterest. How many times I have heard, be it users or advertisers say, I come to Pinterest as the antidote to the toxicity of social media. And that is a responsibility put upon us. We take that responsibility very seriously. So what we are engineering, the platform that we're engineering, the service that we have, we put a lot of heart and soul as well as a lot of engineering into delivering the best app experience for our users globally. Make sure that we have the right policies in place for what we're creating, what we're engineering, but how our users are using our service. And then of course, the ad policies themselves to make sure that every time a user logs onto Pinterest, they're left with this inspirational, positive and safe feeling while they're having a really fun discovery and shopping experience.

[Kamika McCoy]

You know, this, this one last thing that I want to ask. I know I said last question, but I have nasty habit of following one last question with one last question. Speaking kind of about being like a positive place on the Internet on the one hand, and on the other hand, you're closing the gap between, you know, social and shopping. Does Pinterest still consider itself to be like a social media platform or how do we label ourselves? Now with those things in mind, I.

[Bill Watkins]

Mean, we're at the intersection of search, search, social and commerce. I think effectively a lot of, I would say the industry, be it the ad industry, the analyst community and otherwise, they think about Pinterest as a social media platform. But you gotta just come back to like, what are people doing on the service? You know, and at the end of the day, that's what it is. It really is the intersection of search, social and commerce. And, you know, we, again, I've been at the company for 11 years and these two things have always been true. Nine out of 10 users want to come to get inspired and discover new things. And a majority of those users, that which they discover, they want to shop. And again, we're building this product. We're investing in Pinterest in a way that celebrates just that which makes us unique and different. We're going to go out and bring everybody the inspiration to go create a life they love. We're making sure that you're getting inspired and discovering new things and it's easier to shop them now more than ever. That we're delivering best in class results, know all of our goals, but delivering best in class results for all of our advertising partners and have policies that govern the end to end experience, that ensure that it's an incredibly brand safe and positive experience. It's an absolute joy having the privilege to work at this company because in 30 years I'll get to tell my kids and my grandkids that I worked for a company whose sole aim was to go out and inspire the world. I think in the midst of what social media has become over the last decade, it's a very unique position to stand in, one that we all at the company take very seriously. And I'll tell you, we get really excited for where we see this going because our ability to drive a positive impact in the world, it has never been clearer than it is today. And I think that is that's something that motivates every single person that works at Pinterest.

[Kamika McCoy]

Absolutely, Bill. I could yap your ear off, but I'll avoid doing that. I appreciate you giving me the time to yap it off so far and get into the weeds with me about ad loads, AI and Pinterest path forward. So appreciate you stopping by the pod, Miko.

[Bill Watkins]

Thank you so much. I really enjoy being here. Appreciate it.

[Kamika McCoy]

Well, that brings us to the end of this episode of the Digiday Podcast. Thank you to everyone for listening. And please don't forget to share this episode with someone who you think would enjoy it. You can even rate us and leave us a comment on Apple Podcasts. We'll be back next week with another episode of the Digiday Podcast. Thank you so much for joining us. It.