Tariffs, a retail media reckoning, Meta v. FTC + TikTok creator Alyssa McKay on the latest ban delay

Summary

The Digiday Podcast: Episode Summary Release Date: April 15, 2025

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Introduction In this episode of The Digiday Podcast, hosts Kamika McCoy and Tim Peterson delve into pressing issues affecting the media and marketing landscape. They explore the ongoing fluctuations in tariffs, the rapid expansion and subsequent challenges within retail media, the high-stakes antitrust trial between Meta and the FTC, and the latest developments surrounding the potential TikTok ban. The episode features insights from Alyssa McKay, a prominent TikTok creator, who provides a nuanced perspective on navigating these turbulent times.

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1. Navigating Economic Uncertainty: Tariffs and Their Impact The conversation begins with a discussion on the unpredictable nature of tariffs and their widespread implications across various sectors.

• Kamika McCoy (00:26): Highlights the chaos reporters face amid the volatile economic climate.

• Alyssa McKay (03:29): Explains the current state of tariffs, noting a "90 day pause" with a persistent 10% tax on imports from multiple countries. She elaborates on recent developments, such as the temporary exemption for smartphones and computers, which sparked a tech stock rally. However, President Trump’s reversal of this decision added to the uncertainty.

  "There are still tariffs in place. They're just not as dramatic as the Liberation Day tariffs." (03:16)

• The uncertainty surrounding tariffs is causing ripple effects, especially in the advertising market. With auto tariffs still active, industries reliant on consumer spending, like advertising, are experiencing significant strain.

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2. The Boom and Challenges of Retail Media Retail media is experiencing unprecedented growth, but this expansion brings its own set of challenges.

• Alyssa McKay (06:18): Discusses the surge in retail media, particularly how retailers like Walmart are capitalizing on first-party data to enhance their advertising offerings. However, she points out the increasing demands from retailers for higher annual ad spends—up to a 25% increase, as reported by Adweek.

  "If Walmart had asked you to spend $10 million last year, this year they're for your GPP, they're coming back this year with, like, $14 million." (08:13)

• Kamika McCoy (09:31): Emphasizes concerns among media buyers regarding the lack of standardized measurement in retail media, making it difficult to justify increased ad spends amidst economic uncertainty.

• The conversation highlights Walmart's aggressive push for higher ad commitments, placing brands in a precarious position where they must balance increased investment with uncertain returns.

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3. Meta vs. FTC: The Antitrust Battle The episode shifts focus to the Federal Trade Commission's antitrust trial against Meta, accusing the company of monopolistic practices through the acquisitions of WhatsApp and Instagram.

• Alyssa McKay (11:10): Provides an overview of the trial, arguing that Meta's strategy of acquiring rising platforms effectively eliminates competition.

  "Meta bought Instagram in 2012 for a billion, and they bought WhatsApp in 2014 for 19 billion." (12:20)

• Kamika McCoy (13:00): Notes that if Meta is forced to divest its acquisitions, it could significantly disrupt the advertising ecosystem, particularly affecting smaller businesses reliant on Meta's integrated ad platforms.

• The hosts speculate on the potential outcomes of the trial and its broader implications for the digital advertising landscape, drawing parallels with Google's antitrust issues.

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4. TikTok Ban Delay: Implications for Creators and Brands With TikTok facing another potential ban, Alyssa McKay shares her experiences and strategies to mitigate the platform's instability.

• Alyssa McKay (16:20): Discusses her proactive approach to diversification, maintaining a presence across multiple platforms like Snapchat and Instagram to safeguard her career against TikTok’s uncertainty.

  "The best time to start was 10 years ago. The second best time is now." (02:39)

• Eliza (guest, 17:11): Reflects on the 75-day extension of TikTok's ban and her relatively calm reaction, emphasizing that her diversified presence ensures she remains unaffected if TikTok were to disappear.

  "I really don't know what would happen if that [TikTok] were to go away. Eventually, I think that we would all gravitate towards a platform." (19:14)

• The discussion covers how dominance in TikTok’s algorithm has made it a critical testing ground for content, and how creators like Eliza are leveraging features like Instagram Reels and Snapchat Spotlights as alternatives.

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5. Diversification Strategies: Building Resilient Brands A significant portion of the episode underscores the importance of diversification for creators and brands in an unpredictable digital landscape.

• Eliza (28:55): Explains her preference for Snapchat over TikTok for brand deals, citing higher engagement rates despite a smaller follower base.

  "Smaller platforms like Snapchat provide more natural integration into creators' stories, making them more effective for brand promotions." (32:23)

• Kamika McCoy (34:37): Inquires about content ownership and audience management amidst platform instability.

• Eliza (34:44): Shares her experiences with account bans and the importance of cultivating independent audiences beyond any single platform to ensure content ownership and audience retention.

  "Your social media is like your resume." (48:22)

• The hosts and guests discuss the operational challenges of managing multiple platforms, the varying engagement metrics, and the necessity of maintaining authentic connections with audiences across different media.

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6. Future Projections and Creator Advice Looking ahead, the podcast explores potential shifts in the social media landscape and offers advice for creators navigating these changes.

• Eliza (40:00): Emphasizes the need for continuous content testing and adaptation, particularly focusing on Instagram’s trial reels as a viable alternative to TikTok’s algorithm.

• Alyssa McKay (47:18): Advises creators to diversify their presence to mitigate risks associated with platform bans, reinforcing that reliance on a single platform can jeopardize their careers.

  "Diversify. Post everywhere even if it flops. Your social media is like your resume." (48:22)

• The episode concludes with reflections on how creators can build resilient brands by leveraging multiple platforms, maintaining direct audience connections, and staying adaptable amidst regulatory and economic uncertainties.

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Notable Quotes

• Kamika McCoy (00:26): "It's rough as it has been to be a reporter trying to navigate everything that's happening right now."

• Alyssa McKay (02:43): "The best time to start was 10 years ago. The second best time is now."

• Eliza (19:14): "If TikTok were to go away, that kind of is where we derive a lot of the content that we do see elsewhere."

• Eliza (34:44): "Your social media is like your resume."

• Alyssa McKay (48:22): "Diversify. Post everywhere even if it flops."

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Conclusion This episode of The Digiday Podcast offers a comprehensive exploration of current challenges and strategic responses within the digital media and marketing spheres. From the volatility of international tariffs to the high-stakes antitrust battles and the ever-present uncertainty surrounding TikTok, the hosts and guest Alyssa McKay provide valuable insights into building resilient, adaptable brands. Their emphasis on diversification, authentic audience engagement, and strategic content distribution serves as a guiding framework for creators and marketers navigating an increasingly complex digital landscape.

Transcript

[Kamika McCoy]

Foreign. Hello. Hello and welcome to another episode of the Digiday Podcast, the show about the business of media and marketing. I'm your co host, Kamika McCoy, senior marketing reporter here at Digiday.

[Tim Peterson]

And I'm Tim Peterson, executive editor of video and audio Digiday Media. How's it going, Kamiko?

[Kamika McCoy]

It. It's, it's going. I will say I. As as rough as it has been to be a reporter trying to navigate everything that's happening right now, I couldn't imagine having to be a marketer, advertiser, media buyer, small business owner, supplier, or anybody else, to be honest with you. What about you?

[Alyssa McKay]

So a person.

[Eliza]

Yeah.

[Kamika McCoy]

Or at least an adult, a functioning human in society. Yes.

[Alyssa McKay]

Yeah, no, about the same. I spent my weekend doing Taxes do not work well. Yes. Pay your taxes, people, because apparently there's reasons for that. But God, tax. I'm glad I'm almost on the other side of it. I'll be very glad to be on the other side of it.

[Kamika McCoy]

Yeah, adulthood, man. Yeah, nobody, nobody enjoys that. But I hope that our listeners get a short break by hanging out with us for the the next bit later on. In this episode. We've got a really timely guest coming to come join us for the Digiday podcast. Tim, who'd we talk to?

[Alyssa McKay]

Yeah, so you and I did the interview together this week, which was a lot of fun. And we had Alyssa McKay, who's a big creator on TikTok, which is why we wanted to talk with her, because we did this a few days after the latest ban extension came out. And so we want to talk with her about just her reaction kind of what now for creators? Coming off yet another extension of the TikTok divest or die deadline. Yeah, but then I thought it was a really interesting conversation because we talk obviously a good amount about TikTok, but also about Snapchat and what she's seeing over there. And she has some really interesting big numbers to share on the Snapchat site as well as Instagram and why she sees Instagram as a potentially big beneficiary of TikTok going away, which I don't think will surprise more most people listening to this, but she substantiates why she thinks that is the case with some numbers in terms of what she's seen with Instagram reels.

[Kamika McCoy]

Yeah. Which reconfirmed that I should have really started my creator journey back in 2020 instead of committing myself to being a media media girly again. I really should have explored what's that saying?

[Alyssa McKay]

Like the Best time to start was 10 years ago. The second best time is now.

[Kamika McCoy]

You're right, you're right. This is where, this is where I start my creator journey. But but first, this week's juicy scoops, including where we're at right now with tariffs, Walmart making some really big ask of their retail media network clients, and of course Meta's antitrust trial, which is right now kicking off. So you filed your taxes at the same time that tariffs are overlooming to backtrack? There's been a back and forth with tariffs. So all there continues to be a.

[Alyssa McKay]

Back and forth with tariffs.

[Kamika McCoy]

We were told the tariffs are in place for, you know, several countries. And then there was Liberation Day and they said tariffs for everyone. Then reciprocal tariffs. Now we're at a 90 day pause and who knows what the hell is going on.

[Alyssa McKay]

90 day pause for some tariffs, although there's still a 10 tariff on imports from all of these different countries. So there are still tariffs in place. They're just not as dramatic as the Liberation Day tariffs. China tariffs are still in effect, although on Friday you had I believe is U.S. customs and Border Protection saying, hey, actually we're going to pause tariffs or like have an exemption for smartphones and computers and chips, which is a very big deal for companies like Apple. And so I think there was like a tech stock rally on that news. It was kind of like the saving grace for companies like Apple. And then over the weekend, I think it was on Sunday, Trump, I believe on Truth Social says, nah, we're not doing that. And then like it kind of got walked back a bit where it's only a temporary exemption. So everything just kind of keeps changing when it comes to the tariffs of like, yes, there are tariffs, but no one seems to really know what tariffs are and aren't in effect or for how long they will or won't be in effect. Auto tariffs are still in effect. So that's going to have a big impact on not just the consumer market, but then the advertising market for one, because auto is a big spending category. And that seems to be really the thing about all of this is even with all the back and forth on the tariffs in which tariffs aren't in effect for whatever period of time, that uncertainty is certainly having an impact. You had Jamie Dimon last week, the CEO of JPMorgan Chase, talk about the potential threat of a recession. And all of this is happening. It's going to affect all parts of the economy. But we write a lot about the ad market. The ad market is Certainly getting affected because I've been doing my pre upfront reporting. There's a lot of concern about how much money is going to be on the table and a lot of the conversation right now is around flexibility. Last week for the future of TV briefing, it was all about how the flexibility conversation is part of the upfront conversation all over again. Like it was three, four, five years ago, certainly five years ago, but has continued to be the case, though to a lesser degree where there was one TV network executive I talked to too actually who said they're already starting to hear from buyers that they want like much greater flexibility concerns. I have the details in the future people can sign up to read that it's digital membership, so go check it out. But you've also been reporting on the need for flexibility or kind of the demand for flexibility from retail media advertisers as well, right?

[Kamika McCoy]

Yeah, Retail media has been booming just so quickly and there's there, you know, as it's growing faster, you're starting to see some media buyers and advertisers poke some holes. So essentially why retail media is getting so big is this notion that it's the closest to the point of sale with first party data being upended. Retailers probably have the trove of it, right? So get in there. But the thing about retail media is like, if you want to continue to be in the store, you've got to spend in that commitment. I've written about how retail media media buyers have kind of walked away, not kind of have walked away from the negotiation table because of the fear of being, having to commit, you know, an increased spend year over year. And now you've got the tariffs on top of that where now the question becomes like, can I commit to spending this money? So I did that story, Adweek also did that story in which talking about Walmart specifically and when I say when I'm writing these stories, Walmart catches the, the most of the flogging when it comes to how media buyers and executives are feeling about the investment, these commitments. But essentially when, when Adweek wrote about it, there's, they mentioned that retailers are asking brands to boost their annual retail media spend by 25% and that is on an annual basis. So for instance, I talked to one media buyer and they said that if, if Walmart had asked you to spend $10 million last year, right, this year they're for your GPP, they're coming back this year with, you know, easily up to like $14 million or something like that, which, you know, it, it in A time when there's tariffs and economic uncertainty that makes that hard. Some are making the increase because how do you manage visibility on the shelves if you don't meet those. Walmart doesn't recall them requirements but if you don't meet that investment. Right. So it's a not enviable place for these people to be right now. Again, when you're talking about economic uncertainty and having to make a commitment to where your media spend is.

[Tim Peterson]

Right.

[Alyssa McKay]

Plus I mean 25% hike, like I would. I'm imagining it in the context of like rent, like a 25% hike in rent. Yeah, that's big. I would expect a 10% hike and yeah, especially at this time it seems, I guess I can understand Walmart seeing an opportunity here. If there's a lot of concern on behalf of CPG advertisers of are people going to be buying my product? How do I make sure people buy my product? Walmart being like, well we can help to make sure people buy your product. It's going to cost you but we can get you there.

[Kamika McCoy]

Yeah.

[Alyssa McKay]

At the same time. So like ideal time for Walmart, horrible time for CPG advertisers.

[Kamika McCoy]

And the thing is, and I've had this conversation at length ad nauseam. Right where read people that are the people, media buyers that are investing in this space still say that there's no standardization in the measurement, there's no. That clues them into like am I getting the return on this ad spend that still has not figured out yet and on top of that, like am I seeing my sales increase because of this? If you can't contribute those ad sales and where they're coming from, it's hard to make the justification to continue spending more money year over year. Can you tell I'm passionate about the topic to spend more money here over here?

[Alyssa McKay]

Well, yeah, because I mean it's seems like it would be tricky because who are you counting on for that information? I would think Walmart because Walmart owns the point of sale. And maybe you have a Nielsen Catalina Solutions involved. But Nielsen catches enough flack for its measurements. I cover the TV industry.

[Kamika McCoy]

So yeah, that is a situation. There's a looming question about what this means for retail media on a grand scale. Like I said, Walmart I think catches a lot of flack because they're behind Amazon, the second biggest retail media network network that there, there is in terms of ad revenue. Some media buyers that I've talked to said this presents an opportunity for some of the smaller players if they're willing to play nice, you know, like Kroger and Albertsons and some of those other ones. Especially if you're a CPG or a grocery retailer, if you're able to be a little bit more keen on the measurement and flexible in your media buying and your JPP process, it's to be determined how this all shakes out. Because, you know, to your point earlier, we don't even know how the tariffs are going to shake out, let alone a JBP commitment.

[Alyssa McKay]

Right. Plus, even with those smaller ones, it's like, okay, but are they delivering the sales that the advertisers would want? Because it feels like the Amazon Walmart dynamic in retail media is very similar to the Google Meta dynamic in digital media.

[Kamika McCoy]

Yeah, I 100% agree. Which that dynamic for Meta specifically may be facing a similar fate as Google. The FTC is on the hunt yet again.

[Alyssa McKay]

Yep, yep. So on the day we're recording this April 14th, first day of the Federal Trade Commission's antitrust trial against Meta over its acquisitions of WhatsApp and Instagram, FTC is alleging that Meta, you know, broke competition law by acquiring Instagram and WhatsApp and effectively eliminating the competition that was there in the market. This, I feel like, got a fair amount of attention at the time when Meta, then Facebook acquired Instagram because Instagram was the ascendant social platform at that time. You had Facebook and Twitter, but Instagram was kind of its own thing in that it was a dominant mobile social platform at a time when the knock on Facebook was that it was having a hard time pivoting to mobile. And then, lo and behold, it goes public, it acquires Instagram for, I believe it was, a billion dollars. And that really helped Facebook to sidestep this whole mobile problem. And in fact, mobile ended up becoming kind of Facebook's lifeblood to a very large extent.

[Kamika McCoy]

I would 100% agree. But also, like, you know, even looking at Facebook's Meta now's history, like, you know, when Snapchat got big, they created or Instagram stories, and then when TikTok got big, there were reels. So I think there's been this like, you either get buried or bought strategy for a while that the FTC is trying to prove. I'm not sure how this is, you know, in reading some of the headlines, I'm not sure how that's going to shake out because it's been over a decade at this point that this is now being brought up. Meta bought Instagram in 2012 for a billion, to your point, and they bought WhatsApp in 2014 for 19 billion and.

[Alyssa McKay]

They had tried to buy Snapchat.

[Kamika McCoy]

Oh my God, you're right.

[Alyssa McKay]

And then they ended up just copying stories and I mean, they haven't buried Snapchat again. We'll talk more about Snapchat with Alyssa when we get to the interview. But certainly like, it did feel like they put a ceiling on Snapchat's growth.

[Kamika McCoy]

Yeah, yeah. I think the trial is expected to last like seven to eight weeks, so nowhere near as long as, you know, that the Google trial, that drug out for God knows how long. But if this proceeds the way that the FTC would like, then that means that Meta would be required to divest from Instagram and WhatsApp, which is a similar scenario to what we say with DOJ and Google asking them to divest from Chrome. So it's to be determined, I think, if anything, if that does go through, it's going to send some pretty significant shockwaves to advertisers, especially smaller businesses that utilize the one stop shop advertising ecosystem that Meta has built out.

[Alyssa McKay]

Yeah, but similarly to, you know, Google Chrome or especially like those who have called for Google to divest its search business or its ad tech business, which is another antitrust case that Google's been dealing with. Some of these businesses have been so intertwined into the core business, like Meta has really brought Instagram and Facebook together when it comes to its ad business, I imagine to a degree. Also WhatsApp, I'm less familiar with like the workings of, you know, that business, but that seems like it would be really complicated to do. Not to say that that's like an argument on why this shouldn't happen. It is an argument for like, why it may take a long time for it to actually be executed. But there's also just the question of Meta. CEO Mark Zuckerberg has gotten very cozy with the Trump administration, made the donations. Was that Inauguration Day? To what extent does that help Meta's case at all? Obviously, you know, this is Meta. Meta is going to make the most vociferous case it can. It already has been doing as much, so they're definitely not going to go down without a fight. But the timing for the end of this trial, seven, eight weeks from now is interesting because that's right around the time when the TikTok deadline is supposed to be up. And so for these two things to be happening somewhat in parallel could make things really interesting because that's going to have an effect, like you said, on just about everyone, advertisers, audiences, Creators.

[Kamika McCoy]

Yeah.

[Alyssa McKay]

And so it was. We didn't get into this meta trial with Alyssa, but we did talk a lot about Instagram in this conversation.

[Kamika McCoy]

We did. And that is going to be a real juicy one because, you know, to your point earlier, Alyssa's diversification approach to how this all looks kind of really gives you a good lay of the land. So, really excited to get into that conversation with Alyssa.

[Tim Peterson]

Eliza, welcome to the podcast. Thanks for joining us.

[Eliza]

Thanks for having me again.

[Tim Peterson]

Yeah, again, I should say, welcome back to the podcast. We talked two years ago about what you were doing at the time with Snap. This time around we're talking about a different platform.

[Alyssa McKay]

TikTok is.

[Tim Peterson]

So I feel like anytime Kimiko and I are talking about TikTok on the show, we always have to like timestamp the conversations because things change so much. So we were talking on Wednesday, April 9th. Last Friday was when the news came out that TikTok is not being banned just yet. There's another 75 day extension, which I don't know that anyone was necessarily surprised by the news, but at the same time, given how things have been going, anything seemed to be on the table. Alyssa, what was your first reaction? Like, walk me through how you found out about the extension and what your reaction was.

[Eliza]

I mean, for me, I feel like personally I've been pretty desensitized to, you know, whether TikTok is going to be banned, whether it's not. So when I found out about the extension, my team just sent me a text and they were like, hey, another 75 days. But I don't know, I just, I don't feel like it's going to go away. I know we have, you know, like Amazon put a bid in on it, like we have some American, you know, investors looking to, to invest in it. So I just feel like I'm. I'm a little less afraid of losing it now.

[Kamika McCoy]

What do you think? That, that. Because the last time that you guys had a conversation, it was focused on Snap. Right. So obviously that shows signs of like wanting to diversify beyond just tick tock. So talk to me a little bit about kind of what, you know, that means in terms of your presence on other platforms. Are you getting pitches from them, you know, walk this way style or kind of how is that shaping up?

[Eliza]

So ever since I started working with my management team, which we've been working together probably since I want to say like 2019, their number one thing that they trained me to do was diversify. And this was well before there was any TikTok ban or threat of one. And so I've been spending my entire career online building my platforms elsewhere. So I've been very lucky in that sense. I'm very established everywhere else. So it. If TikTok were to go away, I wouldn't be out of a career, thankfully.

[Kamika McCoy]

I think the thing that's interesting here, I've had other conversations and what works about TikTok is its algorithm, right. That's kind of like its secret sauce, the ability to take. Take a. A video on there and it goes viral just based on the. The for you page. It served as like really good testing ground for some brands. I don't know if it's the same for you, but you can post a video there, see how, and then kind of carry it onto other platforms, build on top of that. Right. Again, kind of talk to me a little bit about, you know, with there being so much uncertainty, if you will, around the platform, kind of, what does that mean for that testing ground that, you know, creators like yourself have?

[Eliza]

Yeah, so I definitely agree that if TikTok were to go away, that kind of is where we derive a lot of the content that we do see elsewhere. I mean, a lot of like Instagram Reels and YouTube Shorts and Snapchat spotlights there, a lot of them are repurposed TikToks. So that is what I have been saying too, is that, I mean, I really don't know what would happen if that were to go away. I mean, eventually I think that we would all gravitate towards a platform. If I had to take a guess, I would guess that that would be Instagram reels, you know, because short form isn't going away. Right? So it's more. So if TikTok were to go away, where are we all going to go for, you know, where are we going to film our content? Because most people film it like natively in the TikTok and edit within TikTok. TikTok or use Cap Cut, which is also owned by ByteDance. And when TikTok went away for 12 hours, I also didn't have access to Cap Cut, which was like horrendous for me. But yeah, I mean, it really is a good question. I mean, me personally, I think that people would start to gravitate towards Instagram reels and I. You can kind of see that, you know, Zuckerberg definitely wants to champion reels in midst of the TikTok ban. So we'll see.

[Tim Peterson]

Are you still using Capcut for your TikToks? What's your workflow, like.

[Eliza]

Oh yeah, I was using Capcut earlier today. I use it for like everything, even my auditions that I send in my self tapes. I use CapCut to edit every piece of video and audio content that I, that I make.

[Tim Peterson]

Is it something where like you're thinking about having to diversify your editing software too? And like you mentioned reels, they have edits that's going to be coming out. I don't know if you've been able to get your hands on that at all.

[Eliza]

Yeah, yeah, I'm in the, the test, the beta for it. So I've been, I've been playing around with that as well. I mean it's similar to capca. It still does not have all of the features, but it is, it is a good alternative. I've been playing around with it. So I think that they kind of want to, you know, create like a cap cut 2.0, which I'm not opposed to, especially if that is on the table to be taken away as well. So.

[Alyssa McKay]

Yeah.

[Tim Peterson]

What are the features you wish were in there that aren't yet?

[Eliza]

I mean, probably like auto. I mean I could be wrong. Maybe they do have it. Maybe I wasn't able to navigate it very well, but I like auto captioning on capcut. Admittedly, I like the beauty filter. Sue me. I like that you can put a beauty filter on capcut. Okay. Yeah. All the font styles, the animations, just, you know, things like that you can really do like everything you need to do in capcut versus going to multiple. Like when I edit photos and stuff. Like I have one, you know, one app for filters, one app for this, one app for that. Whereas Cap cuts kind of all encompassing for video. So I think it's kind of hard to compete with it.

[Kamika McCoy]

Yeah, I could imagine. I want to, I want to go back to, you know, when the, when this edition of the TikTok ban happened last Friday. Right. You said your team had text you. But I'm curious, kind of like, you know, with other creators, what has the conversation looked like? Is there a concern? Has everybody, you know, everyone been like, screw it, we're going to diversify or kind of what have those conversations looked like with other peers?

[Eliza]

I mean, the conversations that I'm having with other people, it almost seems like no one, no one's talking about it. In my experience. I have not heard people talking about it. I mean people in my close circle will kind of talk about it, but I'm always the friend that's like, you need to be doing this And I've been preaching to all my friends diversification since the beginning, specifically Snapchat. You guys know I love Snapchat. I do see a lot of creators moving over there, but I do think that it's more so because of the monetary aspect versus, oh, TikTok might be getting banned. So let me move over. And then of course people pushing to their Instagram, which we've all been doing since the beginning of time, you know, get my Instagram number up. But, but I don't know, I don't, I don't hear as much discourse within the creator community as I am outside of it.

[Tim Peterson]

What about from like TikTok reps?

[Eliza]

Oh, TikTok like representatives. Like people that work at TikTok.

[Tim Peterson]

Have you been hearing from them? Like have any of their creator reps reached out?

[Eliza]

No, I mean I've never had like a close relationship with anybody working at TikTok. It's actually probably one of the only platforms. It's like the hardest platform to reach out to people with like, you know, it's easy to get like a meta rep or a rep at Snap or whatever. But TikTok is historically very hard to snag one.

[Tim Peterson]

So that's so surprising that they would like. Cause it feels like there's such a strong history of YouTube started this whole thing and then it felt like all the other platforms kind of copied of like you need a strong partner up program for creators that TikTok would ally that especially at this point when it feels like they would need strong relationships with the creators if only for the future of the platform.

[Eliza]

I feel like TikTok kind of like views itself as the number one. So they're kind of like creators are going to be on TikTok no matter what. Which I also do think is true. But also like when I have had reps at Tick Tock, they like suddenly don't work there anymore and then you just don't get reassigned is kind of the pattern I, I've noticed.

[Kamika McCoy]

That's interesting. We actually had our colleague Crystal Scanlon who has reported that like there's been a lot of reshuffling on the executive level. So I do wonder if that's kind of a trickle down effect that you're seeing on the representative level. But I also wonder if there's just like a fatigue right. Of the never ending Tick Tock band the longest kiss good night I have ever in my life seen. Because you know, talk to me a little bit about kind of what your sentiments were when the tick tock band was first announced, I think, what, 2024? Even back to 2020. And then up until now, kind of like through all of those iterations, you know, what were you thinking? How were you feeling?

[Eliza]

I mean, I was kind of the same way as some of my friends. I was just very indifferent to it. I just kind of thought, you know, and I still uphold this belief that I think that, you know, TikTok is not just an app. I know it sounds like kind of corny, but I do think it really is like an integral part of our culture and especially Gen Z culture. And it's such a huge catalyst for not only content creators. That's the other thing is there's so much discourse about like, what's going to happen to the, to the TikTokers when this goes away, but like what's going to happen to, you know, the people that launched a business, you know, because of TikTok or, you know, people were afforded, you know, the ability to do that, you know, and that's one of the things that TikTok can deliver that I feel like other apps aren't necessarily able to do because of the algorithm and because, you know, anyone can really go viral. So many people are able to, you know, start businesses or sell things or whatever. Even people using TikTok shop, you know, people are making a lot of money doing that, like the everyday person. So sorry, I think I sidebarred a little bit, but I kind of forgot the question.

[Tim Peterson]

No, but you raised an interesting point because I mean, you have your own brand, you have a clothing brand. Like, to what extent have you used TikTok shop from that perspective?

[Eliza]

So we have, we did do a trial run on TikTok shop, but since it was our first time doing it, we actually kind of like broke the system a little bit. You're only supposed to be able to like sell a certain amount of units and we oversold, which we had the products for. But like TikTok shop just couldn't allow us to like make so many sales in one go our first time. So it is a success story. It was very, we were like, whoa.

[Tim Peterson]

People like this nice problem to have.

[Eliza]

You know, but we do use TikTok for marketing here and there. Same thing with Instagram. But most of our, I mean we, we grossed a million bucks off of $0 advertising budget. We just used my social media, my Snapchat and then of course we have the beyond lost TikTok and Instagram and stuff that we lightly use. But I don't think we're getting customers from it. It's more so of a, you know, we need to have a social presence and you know, even I'm a content creator and I'm diversified, but our brand should be as well. So we take the same approach with, with Beyond Lost.

[Tim Peterson]

Okay, so tick tock, shop going away. Not the end of the world by any means.

[Eliza]

No, no, not at all.

[Kamika McCoy]

That's interesting. I, I want to excuse my corporate speak here, but double click into like, into like brand deals, right? Because like again they're to your point about like small businesses and things like that kind of finding their niche on the platform. Talk to me a little bit about how the uncertainty around TikTok going or coming, what that means for brand deals, like how does that shape up in contracts and things like that.

[Eliza]

The way that we like to approach brand deals when, you know, when we get them is we like to do or we like to push for long term partnerships. That includes posting over all of our, my social media platforms. So you know, a lot of the times a brand will be like, hey, we would like you to do one TikTok video for us. And we're like, well, you know, you will get better bang for your buck if we put some, you know, panels up on Snap and do an Instagram reels and you know, whatever. So I feel like it's so weird because, you know, TikTok is where I have the most followers. Like that 10 million number is. It's large and larger than anywhere else I have. But I feel like it's almost like, like when a brand asked to do a TikTok. I would rather do a Snapchat where I have 2 million followers there. And I think that they're going to get a million times more exposure. And that just comes from me knowing my audience because I've diversified. I think that everyone's situation is different, but I think that now brands are starting to see some, you know, sooner than others, that, you know, TikTok isn't always the best place to spend your advertising dollars. I also think that even if TikTok weren't to go away, it's so incredibly over saturated with, you know, TikTok shop and like out of five videos, one will be an actual piece of content and the rest are ads.

[Tim Peterson]

So how do you get brands to go with you on that? Because I can imagine a brand or their agency would still be like, okay, alyssa, but still 10 million is more than 2 million. So let's do TikTok. How do you get them to see like actually There could be better value for them with the 2 million Snapchat followers.

[Eliza]

Well, because followers doesn't equal, like, conversion, right? Like, I mean, anyone could go and buy themselves a million Instagram followers, but if they're getting 20 likes per picture, it's kind of like, do you know what I'm saying? Like, I feel like with Snapchat, I mean, I just show them my numbers. I mean, I'm still getting 250 million to a billion views every 28 days. I'm not getting that on TikTok, even with 10 million followers, you know what I mean? So it's all about how active your audience is as well. And the higher your following number go up, the less engagement you're going to have. That's why you see people with like 50 million TikTok followers that don't even break 100k a video. So I think the analytics sort of speak for themselves. And oftentimes we're able to get them to see and they're like, oh, yes, this is a better way for us to spend our money, you know, but sometimes they still want to pay me for the TikTok. And listen, I'll do it for the TikTok.

[Tim Peterson]

How often are you getting. How often are you getting a billion views a month on Snapchat?

[Eliza]

I mean, it just depends on the month. It really depends on, like, what I did that month. So, I mean, on like an average month, if I'm just kind of at home, that number will be closer to 2. 50 million, 300 million.

[Tim Peterson]

Casual.

[Eliza]

Yeah, very casual. You know, but like, I'm going to Tokyo this month with Amazon and I know that my numbers are going to be higher because I take people with me through, like, every aspect of. Of, you know, when I go on trips and stuff like that.

[Tim Peterson]

So what are you going to Tokyo for with Amazon?

[Eliza]

For just a fun little trip. They invited me to. To go to Tokyo for five days. Very excited.

[Tim Peterson]

Tokyo is a cool town. Very cool town.

[Eliza]

Yeah. We eat lots of sushi.

[Kamika McCoy]

I love that for you, for the brand deals and whatnot. I'm curious if, when, you know, to Tim's point, about them going along with you, things like that, are you seeing there any shift in those things as there's uncertainty? Right? Like, is there a. Like, oh, well, let's prioritize Snapchat or is there still very much, let's tick tock is what we want. We're still living in the promised land over there.

[Eliza]

A lot of brands are still living in the promised land. I. I think Some of them see the value in Snapchat. But I think that also the other problem is, is that there aren't a lot of creators that see the potential in Snapchat themselves. And so, you know, if a brand is pitching to 10 influencers and only one of them is talking about Snapchat and everyone else is like, yeah, you know, let's do TikTok. TikTok's great. We love TikTok. I can see why they would look at me and be like, what are you talking about? So I think that there's just a little bit of a, of a disconnect there. I think that people look to like, you know, at Instagram and they're like, oh, Instagram is the old school way of promotion, you know, which it kind of is. But I feel like TikTok is kind of become that as well, and only because of the oversaturation. I think that if, like TikTok shop didn't exist, it wouldn't be so, so advertised. But, you know, it's very. The entire app is kind of like a walking advertisement now. Even when you open the app, there's an ad that plays before you even get to content. So it's kind of, I don't know, I think it's like the new Instagram in that sense. I love TikTok. I do. But you know what it costs, like brand deals. I don't think it's the best place to promote.

[Tim Peterson]

That's what is the best place to promote right now.

[Eliza]

I would say Snapchat. I mean, even if you're not like promoting creators, there's ads that play in creators stories, like every 10, 10 panels or seven panels or something like that. And the ads, I don't know, I just think that that's the best place to do it. It's less over saturated as well. And also it's natural integration into creators stories and stuff. So, like, you know, if my favorite influencer is talking about their favorite sunscreen on Snapchat, I'm more inclined to buy it when I watch them talk about it there. Even if it's an ad versus a TikTok video ad that says paid partnership and all the hashtags and all that.

[Tim Peterson]

How's Snap doing from a monetization standpoint? Like last time we had you on, you said on the show how you had made more than a million dollars from Snapchat through the monetization program at that point, which was just in testing. What's the number now?

[Eliza]

I don't know the exact number that I've made from Snapchat this year. But I mean, it's, it's still high. It's still my main source of income.

[Tim Peterson]

Would you say it's higher than that million dollars that it was before?

[Eliza]

I would say. I mean, I'm still making over a million a year. I can't say a good portion of that is from Snap. At least over half a million has to be from, from Snapchat. But I don't have a number. I'm in the process of doing my taxes. Email me in a few weeks. I can let you know.

[Kamika McCoy]

Yeah, that Good, good deadline is looming over all of us. One thing that I think is interesting to know, and we've had this conversation with other creators before, it's just like Tick Tock is just kind of maybe the focus point of a broader issue about ownership, IP and where you're allowed to, to show up. That's like yours, right? So talk to me a little bit about, like, what that means to you. Like, with TikTok uncertainty and like Instagram's algorithm being, you know, Instagram's algorithm and whatnot, like, what does that then mean for ownership of your content, your audience, as opposed to having to shift from place to place to place every time something happens? How do you think about, you know, the ownership of your, of your audience? Like, some creators have gone to launch, like, newsletters where I know that I control the going and the coming of the newsletter. Right. Or I don't, I don't know if everybody's capable of pulling off like a Mr. Beast type deal where, you know, they have their own channels and things like that. But.

[Eliza]

Right.

[Kamika McCoy]

You know, again, how are you thinking about, like, ownership given there's instability when it comes to the social media platforms?

[Eliza]

I mean, I think, like, in this industry, even more so than traditional entertainment because it's so new. I think that diversification, you just have to prioritize diversification because I mean, the reality is, is that you really don't have full ownership over your platform. You know what I mean? Like, it can be taken away at any second. I had, I had a secondary TikTok account actually that had over a million followers and it was just like a backup account and that had gotten banned for impersonation of myself. So, you know, I had a TikTok rep at the time and I'm like, here's all the information. Here is my username, here's my login, here's everything. And they were never able to recover that, even though it's like you know, it was a system error and I had someone on the inside helping me. So even like. And that's really when I was like my 10 million to me, I mean, I don't wanna say it means nothing, but it doesn't feel, it's not tangible. Right. Like, I feel like it could just go away any second. And so I try to cultivate audiences elsewhere and I don't do that by like posting on TikTok, go, follow me here, go follow me there. It's about actually building audiences, you know, I don't wanna say from the ground up, cause obviously you're gonna have people that go over on their own and stuff like that, but I think that you're kind of, you have to really work at cultivating audiences and relationships with those audiences on other platforms and do that work. I mean, because even like the content I post, yeah, I repurpose content, but I don't repurpose everything. Like, there is some pieces of content that only go to certain platforms because I know they perform and I know my audience on different platforms are different. I don't know if that, that helps, but.

[Tim Peterson]

Well, and correct me if I'm wrong, but you have done some things to that like created more of a direct connection with your audience. Like I remember talking to your managers, Brian Nelson, Brian Mandler, last summer and this was, I think specific to Beyond Loss, but obviously that's your brand. So the two are intertwined. But like having a text message thread, if I'm not mistaken, or like a text message group where people would be able to find out about like new clothing drops through text message, which seemed like it gave you that direct connection.

[Eliza]

Yeah, we have like an early access list and we also do like giveaways and things like that. And like with specific to the clothing brand and my audience and bridging that gap. Like even because, you know, a lot of brands do the whole like, oh, sign up for text and you get perks. But like, even now I'm working on a few designs for the summer and I was choosing between two different colorways and so I put them on Snapchat with polls and I was like, what color do you want me to make in this set? Because we're only going to do one and I'm stuck. And everyone told me which one and then I asked them, okay, do you want this to be a pullover hoodie or do you want it to be a zip up? And whatever people vote for the most or I get the most feedback on, like, that's what we do. And then they see that product, and then they're more inclined to buy also because they feel like I helped with this design, you know, and it's just a good way to deepen your connection personally with your audience, but also bridge the gap between your brands and your audience.

[Kamika McCoy]

That's a lot. I would imagine that you have to have, like, a different approach for each platform. Like, I feel like. Like, when I hear creators say that it registers, but, like, it also does register, like, just how. How much work that is. Right. So talk to me a little bit about maintaining those relationships, because I would imagine each audience also kind of operates differently per platform and whatnot. So, like, how do you manage those things?

[Eliza]

Like, how I manage just like.

[Kamika McCoy]

Like, the approach to strategy to each platform. Like, is it based on the platform, based on the audience, that type of deal?

[Eliza]

Yeah. Well, now it feels more innate, so it doesn't feel like, you know, it's like. Like, you know your pet's names, and you look at them, you know their name, you never, like, think, like, what's. What's this one's name again? Like, that's kind of like the way I feel about each thing, which I've been working at for years. So it didn't just, like, come to me, but, I mean, it was a lot of trial and error. Like, I've had a lot of flops, you know, on my platforms and whatever. But I also think that, like, not fearing the flop is an important aspect of building that connection and seeing what your audience likes. I think for me, it's. It's really just about pushing myself every day and pushing myself outside of my comfort zone. I mean, I woke up today, and the first thing I read was that somebody said that I was ugly. That's the first thing I read today. And I was like, damn. You know what I mean? So I get up, and I'm like, whatever. I guess I'll, you know, put on a little bit more makeup today, but I'm still gonna create content, you know? Like, it's just kind of like you just got to push yourself and work every day. And also, like, there's no. You don't have a boss. You are your own boss. And, you know, you don't have someone holding you accountable to certain things. And so you really have to put in the work yourself and see what's working and see what's not. And you also have to consume content almost as much as you create as well.

[Kamika McCoy]

So honestly, never feel the flop. I feel like that should be on A T shirt. I'd wear it.

[Eliza]

Don't you?

[Tim Peterson]

That'll be the next beyond Lost drop. Speaking of like staying on top of what's working, what's not working. So this, we're inside this next 75 day period. Is there anything that like you're gonna be keeping an eye on over the next couple months or exploring and kind of preparation for whatever the hell happens in mid June when this next deadline comes up?

[Eliza]

I honestly think just posting as much as possible. I mean I have two accounts. I have, I haven't. I have another second account that I created after my other one got banned and I couldn't get it back. And that's kind of where I just like, I don't know, shitpost. I just like post whatever I want and see what sticks. And that's also like a good, you know, like you said, like TikTok is kind of like the testing ground. That's kind of where I test all my content. So for me over the next few months, it's really gonna be about testing as much as possible. Actually, while we're on the subject of, you know, testing grounds, Instagram has trial reels. I don't know if you guys are familiar or if there's. It's a feature. They've had it for a few months. I've been utilizing the hell out of it and it's, it's so good. If TikTok were to go away, this is like my next favorite thing is when you post a trial reel, your reel gets pushed out into the metaverse and only non followers see it. So right now my analytics, I get like 50 million views a month on my Instagram right now and 98% are from non followers, which is insanely good because it's huge reach so that, that you know, testing on TikTok until the day, you know, comes or doesn't come that I can't anymore. But it's. Instagram trial reels is perfect for doing that as well.

[Tim Peterson]

Geez. Are you able to generate any revenue? Because like they kind of have a Rev Share program. Not really have a Rev Share program.

[Eliza]

You could qualify for bonuses still. I personally don't monetize on Instagram really, but it's more so just about like building that number up and getting my followers and you know, obviously when you show like brands, hey, I'm getting this many organic views on my page, they're inclined to pay you more too. So you know, it all comes around.

[Tim Peterson]

Why don't you monetize on Instagram like directly from the platform.

[Eliza]

To be quite honest, I don't fully understand it. I just got a new meta rep that's kind of helping me understand it. But it is different because as a creator, you have to be personally invited to certain bonus things when they're running bonus programs. And you have to, you know, once you accept a bonus, you have to like, like right now I'm in a bonus where it's like Post, you know, 2020 Instagram Reels and 10 Facebook Reels natively to Facebook. Because when you have cross posting on for your Facebook and your Instagram, the only thing that doesn't cross post surprisingly are Instagram reels. So those you have to upload natively into Facebook, which I just learned and I'm starting to do. But yeah, and it's also just different because it's not like TikTok where it's like anybody who posts a video over a minute has the potential to earn revenue off of that. It's a bonus and you have to be meeting certain requirements and, and stuff. And there's a cap of course, so.

[Tim Peterson]

Okay, so just not as simple and straightforward as you would hope, right?

[Eliza]

Yeah, exactly.

[Kamika McCoy]

Interesting. Yeah. That's not the first time that I've heard that about Instagram or Meta because if I'm not mistaken, they like had bonus reels, got rid of bonus reels for a little while. Is it this is it set up that like, it changes frequently as to like what the requirements are to be part of this program.

[Eliza]

I mean all of that stuff is like internal backend stuff. So I know that like different calibers of creators that are like in different tiers, what they base that off of. I don't know if they base it off of follower count, if they base it off of like monthly views or engagement or how much that person posts. I have no insight into that. But I do know that they tier creators based off of some metric and those certain creators will get offered different bonuses. So you know, like maybe like Mr. Beast is in a meta bonus that I'm not anywhere near being eligible for, but I would have no idea.

[Kamika McCoy]

So that makes sense.

[Tim Peterson]

Wow. Okay. Yeah, because I mean with. Now that you have a partner rep over at Meta that you're working with, have you heard anything from them about like, okay, let's stay close with us over these next two months because we're gonna, we're gonna figure out these monetization things. We're, we're. You even are going to have this new program or you know, edits. We already talked about. But like anything that you're hearing from the meta side of things in terms of how they're looking to shore up their relationship with creators and their value.

[Eliza]

To creators, I know that when I just had my introductory call with the rep, she was super nice and super helpful and basically just said, yep, lots of creators give us the exact same feedback and we are working on it. So, you know, I'm assuming they are. I think that they also know that, you know, even though, like, Instagram and Facebook are kind of like the OG social media apps, like, there needs to be some sort of incentive for creators. And if you're not going to incentivize creators by, you know, blowing their page up and getting them a ton of views, then, you know, monetary is probably the next way to go. And since TikTok kind of has not only the money making aspect, but also the virality aspect to it, and Snapchat has the monetization aspect, it's kind of like, what are they going to bring to the table to get creators to prioritize Meta and Instagram? So I don't know what their next move is, but I'm watching.

[Tim Peterson]

It sounds like Rev show program should be the next move.

[Eliza]

Right? That's what I would vote for.

[Kamika McCoy]

I want to ask. This may be a dumb question, but a lot of the conversation that we're having revolves around platforms that have existed for, you know, since the dawn of social media. I'm curious if there's been any curiosity on your end to build up a presence on some of the newer ones like Lemonade and that type of deal.

[Eliza]

No dumb questions. I. I actually did make a Lemonade account, but correct me if I'm wrong, I'm pretty sure that it's also ran by TikTok. Like when you open it, it's powered by TikTok. So I made a Lemonade account because everyone was like, oh, like join Lemonade just in case TikTok goes away and I open it and I'm like, well, it's powered by TikTok, so if TikTok goes away, so is Lemonade. So, you know, and I joined RedNote as well. Oh yeah, everybody. It was like the trend to go on RedNote. I made an account and I was like, what the heck is this? You know, I keep an eye out on kind of, you know, what's happening. And as a creator, you always have to be willing to evolve and go with the flow. But it's interesting because I haven't seen another social media platform really, like, integrate itself and put itself up, you know, in the same playing field as Instagram and Snapchat and stuff, because they've been around forever, and TikTok, you know, hasn't been around for as long as the. As these platforms. So I have not seen another app, social media app, do that. I'd be interested to see if there ever will be another one.

[Tim Peterson]

Yeah, when you mentioned lemonade, pour one out for Bereal.

[Eliza]

Oh, yeah. Well, you see, that's the thing. Bereal, that was so popular for so long, and I just saw a TikTok about it the other day, and I was like, damn, I forgot about Bereal.

[Kamika McCoy]

Do you just have, like, a file on your phone of just, like, a graveyard of social media ads?

[Eliza]

I honestly, I never delete anything ever. I have, like, 40,000 things in my camera roll I don't delete. My phone is, like, everyone's worst nightmare. It's terrible.

[Alyssa McKay]

Oh, my God.

[Tim Peterson]

Yeah, that's your inbox alone would give me nightmares.

[Alyssa McKay]

Awesome.

[Tim Peterson]

Well, it sounds like whatever happens with TikTok, we'll find out in a couple months. Whatever Instagram, Snapchat, and the others do, we'll have to see. But seems like you're gonna be just fine regardless of what happens.

[Eliza]

I know sometimes I do these interviews and I'm like, do they want me to, like, say I'm gonna crash and burn if TikTok? Because they're always. Everyone's just like, oh, so you're gonna be fine then. Okay, thanks for chatting with us.

[Tim Peterson]

I mean, that's kind of like the value of the whole diversification thing is like. Or kind of one of the examples of, like, if you're diversified, things are gonna be okay. As opposed to anyone who may be freaking out may have been freaking out because all their eggs are in the TikTok basket.

[Eliza]

Well, now they have another 75 days to do it. I did an interview a few weeks ago, and the guy asked me. He was like, what is your advice to creators who have not yet diversified in loom of the impending TikTok ban? I'm like, diversify. I don't know, make an Instagram account. You know, start posting everywhere. So I tell everyone, I'm like, post everywhere even if it flops. If you have a YouTube channel with a thousand followers and none of your videos are getting views, it literally doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. Like, just build your. Build your resume up. That's what it is. Your social media is like your resume, you know?

[Kamika McCoy]

Yeah. In addition to Beyond Lost, Alyssa's also got a side ministry of diversification.

[Eliza]

Dude, this is why I have one friend. I give advice too hard sometimes.

[Tim Peterson]

This is fantastic. Elizabeth, thanks so much for coming back on the show. As always, it was really great talking with you.

[Eliza]

Yeah, thank you. Likewise.

[Tim Peterson]

Thanks for listening to this episode of the Digiday Podcast. If you enjoyed it, please leave us a rating and review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you're listening. Get more from Digiday with our daily newsletter sent out each weekday morning morning. Visit digitaire.comnewsletters to sign up.