The Sora-TikTok U.S. era of short-form video

Summary

The Digiday Podcast
Episode: The Sora-TikTok U.S. Era of Short-Form Video
Date: October 14, 2025
Host(s): Kimeka McCoy, Tim Peterson, guest Crystal Scanlon

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Episode Overview

This episode dives into the rapidly shifting landscape of short-form video, focusing on the U.S.-specific evolution of TikTok, the rise of OpenAI’s Sora app, Meta’s new Vibes feed, and what these trends mean for creators, brands, and advertisers. The discussion explores platform experimentation, the blending of AI and user content, advertising business models, regulatory anxieties, and the future for marketers and creators facing an ever-crowded, tech-driven content ecosystem.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Instagram’s Connected TV App: Why the Push to the Big Screen?

[01:48–06:47]

• News Recap: Instagram, according to boss Adam Mosseri, is exploring a connected TV app, following similar exploratory moves from TikTok.
• Hosts’ Skepticism:
  • Kimiko is blunt: “Do you want to watch reels on your TV? Is this something you’ve been craving?” Kimiko: “No. Hard no.” [02:35]
  • Tim draws the Quibi comparison, highlighting historic failures in blending small and big screen formats.
• Industry Trends:
  • Microdramas (60-second episodes) are trending in Asia and being eyed by U.S. companies (e.g., TelevisaUnivision’s push on VIX).
  • Tim is dubious about consumer demand, especially given format misalignments (vertical video on horizontal TVs).
• Advertiser Perspective:
  • “Kamika, you know how I’d love to see brands stand out? Lower prices, better product. That’s it. I don’t need your version of Chicken Shop Date.” — Tim [05:23]

2. Perplexity’s Advertising Pause: Canary in the Coal Mine?

[07:25–12:14]

• News Recap: Perplexity pauses ad sales; their head of ad sales departs after meager initial performance.
• Host Discussion:
  • $20k in ad sales in the fourth quarter (“nothing” at scale), calling into question the viability of AI-native ads for smaller platforms.
  • Kimiko: “I feel like it costs you more to build out the ad infrastructure than what you made.” [08:33]
  • Lack of user scale and advertiser ROI are core challenges.
• Broader AI Platform Implications:
  • OpenAI’s ChatGPT dwarfs Perplexity (800 million vs. 22 million users); “scale” rules for advertisers.
  • Tim: “Maybe Perplexity becomes the Friendster or MySpace of ad-supported AI platforms.” [11:02]
• Advertiser Demands:
  • Without scale, platforms need differentiation—tight tech stacks or niche audiences.
  • Questions linger about brand suitability in “answer feeds” compared to more traditional content feeds.

3. The TikTok U.S. Transition and the Rise of Sora & Vibes

[13:14–41:47]
(With guest Crystal Scanlon)

• State of TikTok:

  • Looming court-mandated U.S. spinoff and algorithm recreation; anxiety about whether 170M U.S. users will migrate.
  • Crystal notes: “If they’re expecting 170 million users to migrate… that’s a lot of reliance on those users actually doing it and not falling by the wayside.” [16:45]
  • Smaller user pool & content volume likely to impact TikTok's algorithmic effectiveness in the U.S.

• Advertiser and Marketer Sentiment:

  • Still strong ROI on TikTok; most marketers in wait-and-see mode rather than jumping to new platforms.
  • AI-generated feeds (Sora, Vibes) elicit curiosity, but brands remain loyal to tried-and-true platforms (Google, Meta):
    • “Tried and true is always the typical Google, Meta. If anyone gets scared, they run back to Google and Meta. That seems to always just be the default.” — Crystal [19:06]
  • Risk appetites vary; brand safety and suitability concerns are amplified with AI content.

• App Fatigue & User/Creator Attitudes:

  • Kimiko: "There are already so many apps that exist, I can’t be bothered to download another app, make another username and engage…" [22:24]
  • A segment of creators sees new platforms as first-mover opportunities; others feel overwhelmed.
  • Sora requires users to generate a cameo before engaging, pushing participatory dynamics reminiscent of BeReal. [24:29–25:31]
  • Concerns about privacy, likeness/IP theft, and misuse abound—though technical guardrails are being developed.

• Brand Safety & Disinformation:

  • Disinformation risks persist across platforms, regardless of moderation efforts. Sora’s “AI fiction zone” might ironically make fakery more transparent:
    • Tim: “I actually welcome something like Sora… it’s like going into the fiction section at a bookstore. Whatever I’m going to read I know isn’t real.” [26:02]

• Ad Formats & Monetization Futures:

  • Nascent (or nonexistent) ad products in AI-generated environments pose creative opportunities and dilemmas:
    • How will ads manifest if everything is AI-generated? Seamless product placement or “virtual influencer” campaigns may dominate:
      • Crystal: “This could be their [virtual influencers’] home that other people are stepping in.” [30:27]
  • “If everything else is fake, how would people know they can click on that? …Everything becomes clickable.” — Crystal & Tim [34:04–34:44]
  • Discusses the potential for dynamic, programmatic brand integrations (e.g., Nike-branded AI basketballs auto-inserted).

• Competitive Dynamics: Meta vs. OpenAI vs. YouTube vs. Creators

  • Meta’s iterative playbook is challenged by the unique technical hurdles of AI video generation.
  • Sora’s leadership benefits from ex-Meta hires (e.g., Fiji Simo).
  • YouTube remains the “king” of monetization and may wait, watching others’ mistakes, before decisive action.
    • “YouTube could do something. … Maybe they’re being the most cautious, actually waiting to see who does what, so then they can … have a really decent product.” — Crystal [40:48]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Instagram TV App:

  • Kimiko: “A flat, no.” [02:38]
  • “Why am I paying restaurant prices for a lunch spot? That doesn’t make any sense to me.” — Tim [05:23]

• Perplexity’s Ad Business:

  • “It costs you more to build out the ad infrastructure than what you made.” — Kimiko [08:33]
  • “Maybe Perplexity becomes the Friendster or MySpace of ad-supported AI platforms.” — Tim [11:02]

• Sora’s Onboarding Experience:

  • “The first thing it asks you to do is to create your own cameo. …You have to go in and partake in it, otherwise you can’t just watch other people’s…” — Crystal [24:29]

• On Brand Safety/Disinformation:

  • “If I see that [deepfake video] in Sora, then I know it’s fake because it’s… purely an app for AI generated videos. If I see that on TikTok or on X or on Instagram, then it’s an actual question of is this real or is this fake?” — Tim [26:02]

• On App Fatigue and Creator Resistance:

  • “Some creators… can’t be bothered to do this yet again.” — Kimiko [22:24]
  • “That was the same when TikTok was musically. …New platform, new opportunity, I’m there, blew up during the pandemic and now have become big creators in their own right.” — Tim [22:59]

• What Does AI Advertising Look Like?

  • “Does that mean that the CEO of Nike films himself for the cameo, does he put up a shoe to get on the app or what does that even look like?” — Kimiko [29:44]

• Virtual Influencers’ Growth:

  • “The conversation about virtual influencers… is more apparent to everybody else except for human influencers.” — Kimiko [30:41]

• Meta’s Copycat Challenges:

  • “Mark Zuckerberg is the king of it…taking all those features and things that work really well.” — Crystal [37:47]
  • “To what extent can Meta copy Sora, because a lot of this comes down to how good the AI model is at creating video.” — Tim [39:16]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Instagram TV App Debate: [01:48–06:47]
• Perplexity’s Ad Pullback: [07:25–12:14]
• Crystal Scanlon Joins—Short-form Arms Race & AI Content: [13:14–41:47]
  • TikTok U.S. Algorithm & Scale Issues: [16:45–18:38]
  • Marketer Interest in Sora/Vibes: [19:06–20:26]
  • App fatigue & Creator Attitudes: [22:24–24:29]
  • Sora’s Cameo and Technical Guardrails: [24:29–27:44]
  • Disinformation & Brand Safety: [26:02–27:59]
  • Imagining Advertising in AI-first Environments: [29:44–36:09]
  • Meta & YouTube’s Response: [37:47–41:47]

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Conclusion

The episode paints a lively, skeptical, and occasionally humorous portrait of a media business in flux, where platform experiments, user skepticism, and AI’s creative chaos all intermingle. The short-form video “arms race” is unfolding under the shadow of TikTok’s uncertain U.S. future. Marketers contemplate where audiences—and ad dollars—will flow next, as the early stages of AI-native content platforms like Sora and Vibes provoke equal parts excitement, unease, and curiosity. While traditional players like Meta and YouTube strategize their responses, advertisers remain watchful, chasing the ever-elusive blend of scale, safety, and innovation.

Transcript

[A]

Foreign.

[B]

Hello, hello, and welcome to another episode of the Digiday Podcast, a show about the business of media and marketing. I'm Kameka McCoy, senior marketing reporter here at Digiday.

[A]

And I'm Tim Peterson, executive editor of video and audio at Digiday Media. What's up, Kamiko?

[B]

Tim, how are you feeling?

[A]

I'm doing all right. How's your advertising week been?

[B]

I have been watching from afar. First of all, every time someone sends me a message being like, how are you enjoying Advertising Week? I'm not there on the ground. Please don't remind me. But it's been interesting kind of seeing the movement that's coming out of there. I heard horror stories from some folks about long wait times in lines like 30 minutes to get in the tour. So goodness gracious.

[A]

Oh, so people turned up for it because the thing. So like you, I didn't make the trip to New York for advertisement week. I haven't felt like I've missed a damn thing. It doesn't. I Nothing's popped off from Advertising Week other than maybe a panel session in which Perplexity's head of publisher partnerships spoke and divulged some information around its ads business that we're going to get to. But other than that, it's felt really quiet.

[B]

It has. But the good thing for us is that there is no shortage of news. Even though it didn't come out of the advertising week this week, we've still got a lot on our plate to cover, including perplexities at business. Later on in this episode, we are going to have our platforms reporter Crystal Scanlon join us, talk about meta vibes and some of the other things happening in the social media space. But first, we've got some real juicy scoops happening, including Perplexity and also Instagram. So very on theme.

[A]

Yeah. Should we start with maybe Instagram first? Because I feel like that was. I have somewhat less to say about Instagram exploring launching a connected TV app. At the same time, I feel like I have plenty to say. I just feel like it all comes back to, like, why would you do this? Why would anyone use this? So Bloomberg had its screen time event in Los Angeles this week and Instagram boss Adam Mosseri spoke there and said on stage that Instagram is exploring launching a connected TV app, which confirms a report that the information published over the summer that both Instagram and TikTok were looking to get onto the connected TV screen. Kimiko, do you want to watch reels on your tv? Is this something you've been craving no.

[B]

And I'm going to be completely hard. No.

[A]

Flat, no.

[B]

Because the thing is like there's big screen activity, right? Which is like your television, your proper viewing of programming and then like your small screen activity. And I feel like what has been the poster child for why we do not blend those things has been Quibi. I don't know where that case study went, but I feel like it should be brought back up.

[A]

Yeah, I, I feel like it is being brought back up because have you heard of these micro dramas?

[B]

Microdramas.

[A]

Microdramas. So this is, this is a new term that has popped into my lexicon in 20. So I believe it's in Asia. I don't remember if it's Japan specifically or Korea or China or maybe all of the above. Microdramas have gotten really popular. These are basically like 60 second soap operas or telenovelas, effectively like 60 second episodes on short form video platforms gotten super popular over there and so people are trying to bring them to the US There's a contingent of traditional Hollywood power players who just like Katzenberg with Quibi, are forming a company to try to bring microdramas to the US Televisa. Univision @ its upfront in May announced that it's, I believe it's on its VIX streaming platform. They're going to have micro dramas there. So people are still trying to do Quibi. Quibi is not as cautionary. It's of a tip as you would think. And people. Yeah, I mean my big question with Instagram or I mean TikTok had launched a CTV app before Axios reported earlier in the year that it was taken off TVs. When that ban happened, I don't know to what extent it ever got put back on TVs. I don't know to what extent anyone installed it or why they would have done that. Unless they're a sociopath like me who just needs to stay up on this stuff.

[B]

Yeah. To your point about the, the, the micro dramas I've actually been hearing from U.S. brands, right. A push to have like more like sitcom style short shows and things like that. So it, I feel like there's a case to be made. Like we've played this game, we've seen this play before. I'm not sure what the indicator is that it's going to work out this time. A lot of the rhetoric that I'm hearing around the cause for wanting to put together like a chicken shop style, chicken shop date, excuse me, style programming on social is like we've got to stand out we need an organic way to kind of break through the noise in, like, social and entertainment are, like, blurring. But are they? Because, like I said, big screen activity, little screen activity.

[A]

Kamika, you know how I'd love to see brands stand out? Lower prices, better product. That's. That's it. I don't need your version of Chicken Shop Date. If you're a fast, casual food restaurant, give me my food at cheaper prices. Why am I paying restaurant prices for a lunch spot? That doesn't make any sense to me. Give me better food, give me better portions. If I say double, I want double.

[B]

Yeah, stop being so stingy.

[A]

Exactly. So I'm just clearly very skeptical of this, especially because Mosseri said Instagram isn't looking to license sports programming. And so if they're just looking to take existing Instagram videos and have people watch them on tv, I just don't know why anyone would be sitting down for dinner or looking to relax after work and think, let's fire up Instagram and see what reels are out there. That's not what you watch on a tv. Especially, like the TV is a horizontal screen. Reels are vertical. Yeah, that's so much negative space on the screen too, that just. I don't know. YouTube talks about people watching YouTube shorts on TV and I do believe those people exist. I don't know why people. I still have yet to meet someone who's actually watching YouTube shorts on TV, though, to explain to me why they're doing that.

[B]

Yeah, I'd also be curious, like, how this even works. Like, do I just, like, use my remote to click through to the next piece of content if I'm not enjoying this 22nd video? I think the thing that Instagram and Meta in general is like infamous for, and I use infamous purposefully, is that derogatory? Is that they are willing to throw a noodle at the wall and as soon as it doesn't work, they will peel it off. So I don't, you know, regardless of how this pans out, if. If it doesn't pan out in the way that they want it to, you can count on it immediately coming back down.

[A]

Yeah. At least I assume they still have the trademark on igtv, so it's not like they have to come up with new branding.

[B]

Lord have mercy. That was a time. And then. Yeah. I don't know. I don't know how impressed consumers would be with something like that, because there's more questions than answers. But advertisers I know are not impressed with perplexity because they have paused their ad sales, according to Adweek, which, you know, the question is, is this a canary in the coal mine situation, or is this kind of indicative of all AI and their ad ambitions?

[A]

Yep. Yeah. So Adweek reported on this. Perplexity's head of publisher partnerships said as much on stage during an Advertising Week panel that Perplexity isn't taking any new advertisers and ads aren't planned for its Comet browser. This comes after Adweek had also reported in August that Perplexity's head of ad sales, Taz Patel, had stepped down. At that same time, Adweek reported that Perplexity had only sold $20,000 worth of ads in the fourth quarter of last year, which, granted, was its first quarter selling ads, but $20,000 is nothing when it comes to.

[B]

I feel like it costs you more to build out the ad infrastructure than what you made.

[A]

Yeah. So this all feels like despite it being a short time, it's been less than a year since Perplexity launched ads. Still a long time coming for Perplexity to. It seems like we can say Perplexity's ad business failed.

[B]

Yeah. I wonder if this, like, to our point earlier, if this is indicative of how advertisers are seeing AI shape up their ad platforms. Because right now it's kind of like a race to the bottom right. You've got. Again, I feel like I bring this up every week with these AI ambitions of having everything automated by the end of 2026. And then you've also got OpenAI, which is released. I have lost count of everything at this point, instant checkout and a slew of other things. So I don't. And those platforms are much bigger than Perplexity, which also kind of calls that into question of like, do you even have the user base to kind of justify advertisers spend.

[A]

Yeah, I think that's the biggest reason why it's hard to take Perplexity struggles in building an ad business and project that onto other AI platforms. Like definitely at ChatGPT, perplexity as of June of this year said it had 22 million active users, which still a good number of people. But OpenAI announced just this week that ChatGPT has 800 million weekly active users. So we're talking orders of magnitude different when it comes to scale. And that's always the thing that matters most to advertisers. Ultimately, they're looking to reach a lot of people in their target audience. If you don't have the scale for that, they're not going to be as willing to accept other drawbacks or limitations of your ad platform. It sounds like Perplexity had a whole number of limitations when it comes to its ad platform.

[B]

Yeah, we had Crystal report on this. Was it earlier this year? Because just kind of, I think it.

[A]

Was May of this year.

[B]

The, the pushback that Perplexity was getting at the launch of its ads where you know, there wasn't enough, there wasn't enough scale that they needed to see the ROI and the brand safety consideration, CPM efficiency. I think right now you're really seeing advertisers new platform, old platform, doesn't matter, they need the insights. And I feel like Perplexity was not immune to that and that's how that kind of shook out.

[A]

Yeah. And so it kind of raises this question of because OpenAI is reportedly building out its ad business, you know, Fiji Sema, OpenAI's head of apps is talking with folks about building up some sort of paid growth division within there. I think adweek has also reported on they're looking to build some sort of ad platform. So I don't think Perplexity necessarily is going to put OpenAI at a disadvantage here. If anything it's probably going to be helpful for OpenAI to see like okay, so this is what not to do when building an ads business. And maybe Perplexity becomes the Friendster or MySpace of Ad supported AI platform.

[B]

You truly do hate to see it because like if you can't offer the scale and this is the same thing like in my reporting with like retail media networks, right. If you can't offer the scale like an Amazon or a Walmart, then you've got to go niche and like you've got to have like a tool set or an ad tech stack that's like really, really tight. If you can't offer any of those or either of those, you find yourself in a real precarious predicament.

[A]

Yeah. And I mean there is still the question though like with Perplexity of do advertisers want to be appearing in kind of these answer like the AI generated answer feeds as opposed to something like a Sora or a Vibes where it's a content feed. And so that seems more, I was about to say natural. I'm going to catch myself because there's nothing natural about any of this but more of an analog to where advertisers are used to appearing. Whereas an Answer's feed is a completely new and different environment, especially when you're introduce hallucinations. But even with advertisers appearing in something like a Sora or Vibes, there are questions around that, which, you know, Crystal gets to in our featured segment.

[B]

Yeah, I would say this is a definitely juicy segment and I'm super excited to get to it. A lot of questions answered, shout out to Crystal. So with no further ado, let's get to it.

[A]

Foreign.

[B]

Welcome to the show. Glad to have you.

[C]

Thanks for having me back.

[B]

Are you tick tocked out at this point?

[C]

I mean, TikTok keeps me tick tocking and going. It's about all I can say at this stage.

[B]

Tim and I have been for the last couple of weeks. At this point I feel like we've been trapped in like TikTok purgatory and it has now expanded to other social media platforms. Given like can we go weeks? Yeah, well, years, eternity. That's why it's Purgatory. Well, yeah, we've been in the, we've been in the Sunken place talking about TikTok ban and kind of what that means for other competitors. Obviously there's been some recent news around Meta releasing vibes its own TikTok, another TikTok competitor with Lisa Frank style dogs and cars and things like that. And then you've got OpenAI getting into the space as well. Have you, have you done any AI? AI content dives. Doom scrolling. Vibe scrolling, that's what I want to call it.

[C]

So in the uk, definitely can't get on SORA yet, albeit cbd. We'll get back to you on the actually seeing it. I'm just speaking to a lot of people that use it. As far as Meta's Vibes being on, it looks a lot like Instagram. Can't lie outside of that. I mean I'm an Instagram at heart if I'm honest, but that's just personal preference.

[B]

Tim, what about you? I know you mentioned your speed bump videos.

[A]

Yeah, I mean I've been on Vibes. Well, I was on Vibes once for a column I wrote for the Future TV Briefing. That was the only time I was on Vibes. It feels like I got enough there where it's like, okay, I saw the dogs, I saw the elephants, I saw to Crystal's point, a lot of posts that look like regular ass Instagram posts. But obviously AI generated It felt very empty, but empty in a different way that TikTok often feels empty of. Just like I didn't get anything out of this. Even like the enjoyment of the doom scroller. The vibe scroll wasn't there. It just felt forced. So Krystal, we wanted to have this conversation because it feels like right now there's a big question about the future of short form video. And the question may be bigger than it's been that I can remember. Even more so than when Instagram launched reels and YouTube launched shorts, because when that happened, TikTok was still around as we all know it. Now, assuming China actually signs it's part of this deal to create TikTok US, but if and when TikTok US launches, it's going to be a new TikTok like yes, the Oracle and everyone else who's part of the joint venture, including the U.S. which government, which I guess has supervision over the creation of the new algorithm. They're going to get a copy of the existing TikTok algorithm, but they're going to have to recreate it, which indicates it's not going to be the same thing. Even if they clone it well enough, it's not going to be a one to one as the old algorithm. So we're going to have a new TikTok at the same time as we're getting these new versions of short form video apps with OpenAI Sora and Meta's vibes. So Krystal, as you're talking to folks, are you getting the sense that people are expecting there to be a change with TikTok US?

[C]

I think it definitely depends on who you speak to. With some people, they're definitely still completely in denial that none of this is even happening. Like literally the whole, I mean, all through the courts, everything people were telling me it's not happening. I mean, we saw January, it's all kind of, it's a thing. But even as far as like marketers playing a potential, some are playing quite a cautious approach in the sense of up until, while, while it is in the stance that it is, they'll stay where it is because the performance is great, ads performing great. They can't fault it in that regard. The moment that there is some form of transition, no one knows how that transition is going to play out because naturally, if they're expecting 170 million users to transfer and migrate over to a new app, that's a lot of reliance on those users actually doing it and not falling by the wayside or just going elsewhere because it just seems like a lot of hassle. There's also the element of I'm assuming it's not going to be an empty box, they're going to have to bring all of that content over, but it's. You're going to such a smaller app in the sense of 170 million users versus currently, TikTok's reach is like over a billion. So it's already like the algorithm. The reason it's as strong as it is currently is because it has all of that content constantly churning throughout the entire globe from people doing it every single hour. I assume that's what's made it so strong in its current form. But then if you literally only have a tiny portion of that with 170 million users, and to be honest, not every single user is necessarily going to create content, you've already got a much, much smaller pool of content to work with to build that algorithm out. So I think in that sense there's going to be changes regardless. The question is, I guess, how big are those changes going to be rather than if there's going to be changes.

[B]

Yeah, I could see why marketers would want to keep their head in the sand here and are probably hoping that the can is once again kicked down the road. Do you get the sense that there's any interest in any of these other apps? I know one thing that we've, you know, we've said a lot on this podcast is that Zuckerberg would like for all AI to be automated by the end of next year. Kind of. What's the interest that you're hearing from marketers for something like, you know, advertising on Sora or Vibes or any type of like AI generated video feed?

[C]

I suppose in terms of, I guess at the moment, because these are such newer feeds and newer apps, there's a lot of interest from like a consumer or user perspective. Just because advertising on them is so far away right now, because we've seen it play out with every single platform for the longest time. Even the ones that say they don't love advertising, give them about however long, whether it's a year, six months down the line and then suddenly that view starts changing and then they realize they need a sustainable business model to fund what they're doing going forward. That's why advertising tends to always come back in. But in terms of when I've asked them anyone so far about like, would you be interested in that? It's still kind of taking that very cautious approach of it looks great, but it's still not a tried and true platform. Tried and true is always the typical Google meta. So that's naturally, if anyone gets scared, they run back to Google and meta, that seems to always just be the default, like no matter who I ask in any capacity and even with these, it's just again, like it depends how risky a brand is prepared to be. Because when you have AI content, there's a whole new facet of concerns or questions or whether it's brand safety or brand suitability. And depending on how they're set up with their guardrails and anything like that will depend on how conservative or how risky a brand's willing to play it.

[A]

And that's absolutely true for like, big brands, traditional advertisers, but for like small and medium sized advertisers, it's kind of like where's the audience? Where's the, where are my ads going to work? Where's. Where's Chi for me? And so that's like one thing that's going to be really like. I feel like the moment right now for TikTok isn't so dissimilar from the moment a few years back for X or what was then, Twitter. Because we're getting a new app at the same time we're getting new competitors. And it feels like, feels like at least Sora has a better chance of rivaling TikTok than like necessarily. I guess Threads has been the biggest rival to X, but I don't know like how successful Threads has necessarily been at overtaking X versus just kind of leveling the market a little bit. But it feels like if people start flocking to Sora in droves, advertisers are going to follow because that's advertisers mo 100%.

[C]

Like in any scenario, like as much as whether they agree with it or not, whether there's like morals involved or not, ultimately their whole obligation is spending their clients money and they just need it to get in front of as many eyeballs as possible. So whether they like same with X. I've even spoken to people even more recently that have said, do you know what, I actually spend more there than I do on Snapchat. Never thought I'd hear that these days, but I mean, that's even a thing now. So it literally just goes to show that it doesn't matter what scenario an app may be in. If the eyeballs are there, marketers aren't really far behind.

[A]

So then I guess it becomes a question of how willing are people going to be to go to a Sora or a Vibes. Kimiko, I feel like you're probably a good litmus test for this. How likely are you to start using a Sora or a Vibes compared to a TikTok?

[B]

Listen, I am all for doom scrolling, but I Don't see myself looking for like a slop, to be honest with you. And then also like, there are already so many apps that exist, I can't be bothered to download another app, make another username and engage with, you know, yet another audience. I've talked to some creators and they kind of had the same, you know, ideology here where I can't be bothered to do this yet again. So I don't know if the, if the audience will kind of make the transition to make the case for advertisers to start throwing ad spend at it.

[A]

It. But isn't that always the conversation among some people? I feel like that was the same when TikTok was musically. And then TikTok became TikTok, which was then true for some people, but then you had other people who are just like, new platform, new opportunity, I'm there, blew up during the pandemic and now have become big creators in their own right. So I feel like, sure, there's going to be some share of people who are just like, nah, I don't need another platform. I'm going to stick with what I know. But I feel like there are also going to be others who are just like, okay, I wanted to be a creator. TikTok's gotten too crowded, YouTube's gotten too crowded. So is this new thing. Here's a new opportunity for me to blow up on a new platform.

[B]

You bring up something interesting here because like, so for instance, I think to your point about X earlier, like what happened with Threads, it leveled the playing field. There were other, you could have gone to Blue sky, threads, Mastodon, the list goes on and on. TikTok got big because there weren't a lot of short form videos in the way with the algorithm that TikTok had. Reels didn't exist yet, you know, that type of thing. And now with meta vibes and mostly Sora, you don't have an AI based platform. So that's kind of like the first move or advantage there. So to your point, yes. No, that does make it. I won't be joining, but I could absolutely see, I could absolutely see the case being made for creators and you know, some brands that are a little bit more adventurous to show up on that platform to be a first mover.

[C]

One thing I did actually hear about Sora, apparently when you've like got your code and then you managed to get in, the first thing it asks you to do is to create your own cameo. It kind of gives me bereal vibes because, like, to be able to actually use it, you have to go in and like partake in it, otherwise you can't just watch other people's bereal. So I was like, okay, so there's clearly. That's the social element they're trying to bring into it.

[B]

Explain this cameo to me. So, like, you recreate yourself before you can start watching videos?

[C]

Yeah, apparently, from what I've been told, literally once you log in and like you've, I guess, made your username and things, then literally it asks you to kind of do a short video of yourself and you've got to say, I don't know whether it's either like three numbers or three words. So it's basically, it can create a likeness of you physically and visually and then it can also have like some form of element of your voice. And then once it's done that, that's then stored and that's used to then basically when you want to create other videos with your likeness. So your cameo, that's what it uses to be able to do that is.

[B]

Anybody's like nervous about this. Tim, before the mics got hot, you brought up a really good point of like, if this all lived within Sora app, right, that'd be one thing. But it's kind of breaking the fourth wall here because then that same content shows up in places like Facebook and Twitter or X, however you want to call it, Reels. So now you've got like misinformation and disinformation propensities. You've also got IP infringement. I know that they've got the opt out model now, but, you know, things happen.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, my. So a lot of the pushback on Sora has been about the potential for disinformation. For. I mean, there was, you know, an OpenAI employee who created a Sora video in which Sam Altman. It's like a CCTV style clip of Sam Altman shoplifting at, I think it is a Target store. And so a lot of people took something like that of, oh, you could use Sora to create videos to implicate people in crimes, which is true, I get the concern. But if I see that in Sora, then I know it's fake because it's, you know, purely an app for AI generated videos. If I see that on TikTok or on X or on Instagram, then it's an actual question of is this real or is this fake? And so my thing with like this pushback on Sora is this disinformation is a risk anywhere. AI generated videos are popping up in feeds anyways. They're popping up on TikTok. Sometimes they're labeled as AI generated, sometimes they're not. We talked about the bunnies on the trampoline example over the summer that wasn't labeled as AI generated. We had no idea. We even documented you live on the podcast, watching the video. And so that's where I actually welcome something like Sora, where I can go into Sora and I know everything here is going to be fake and I can just kind of. It's like going into the fiction section at a bookstore. Whatever I'm going to read I know isn't real. And so I can just enjoy it for what it is as opposed to having to think, am I getting got right now?

[B]

Yeah. I was going to ask if there were any like, if advertisers that you're talking to, Krystal, have any concerns about that same thing. But I feel like I'm going to answer my own question here and that, you know, wherever there's eyeballs, the, the brand safety kind of takes a backseat.

[C]

Here, I suppose, at the moment because it's in, it's like early doors, like hype period right now. It's so new. Everyone's just in that excitable mode about the app. But then the one thing I have heard like, is that with your cameo, what you can do and granted, like, I don't know how like how like robust these are, they have an option where you can toggle. So say for example, if you were happy just for yourself to create your own videos with you in them, but you didn't want anyone else to do that, you can toggle it. So only you can create videos with your likeness, you can also do it. So say, for example, if you and I, Kimiko, were following each other then, if I wanted, then Mutual Follows could be able to make them make videos on their Sora app with my likeness and vice versa because I've set it. Or I could set it alternatively where everyone could do it or anyone that's on the app that sees it. And then apparently there's also additional guardrails where if, say you didn't want to be part of certain types of videos, like, I don't know, like say if you hated fishing. I don't know if, say, I don't want to have anything to do with fishing. If someone tried to do that, it just wouldn't allow you to do it. So I think they've done that probably for the likes of, say, public figures, celebrities, because you've seen the typical deepfakes, even about Taylor Swift and all the big people. But at the same time, I mean, no matter what guardrails are in place, people that are wanting to do not very nice things regardless will find a way to do it. Because technology evolves so quickly. We've seen it happen on every single platform.

[A]

I love it. Like the, the non verbal, purely instinctive reaction to everything Crystal said. There's a guttural noise coming from.

[B]

Yeah, I guess advertise, you know, they'll. If I don't know that that conversation, it makes sense because at the end of the day, you know, they're trying to get in front of eyeballs. I do question what even ads would look like on this platform. I know we're in like super nascent stages here, but like, you know, with the idea of like, okay, so the cameo thing has to happen. So like, does that mean that the CEO of, of, of Nike, like films himself for the cameo, does he put up a shoe to, to get on the app or what does that even look like, you think?

[A]

Or if they like do a deal with, I think Caitlin Clark's a Nike athlete, if I'm not mistaken. Like a likeness deal with Caitlin Clark. And so then you could have Caitlin Clark decked out in Nike in your Sora video.

[C]

Or even maybe just the home for virtual influencers because they've seemed to like they get backlash in. Some of them get backlash if they're on Instagram or whatever because, you know, the idea of they're taking work away from humans. This could be their home that other people are stepping in.

[B]

It's so crazy because I feel like the conversation about virtual influencers kind of eating human influencers lunch is starting to be more apparent to everybody else except for human influencers, as the conversations that I've had, AI is not showing up in there. And this is with influencers, talent management agencies and creator agencies. AI has not shown up in their contracts yet, even with the launch of something like Sora, which is kind of like a direct path for virtual influencers here, which is really curious that, you know, it's kind of taking so long to, to catch up.

[C]

I mean, I, I kind of probably liken it more to the way regulation works. Like people start out with not having a clue what' something is or how it's working. And until they figure it out, they're not prepared to put things into contracts or into black and white until it's more solid so they understand what they're dealing with because it's sort of like if you don't know how something could work, how could, how could you put that in somewhere?

[B]

And then the timing of all of this is really interesting as well because like, you know, again on the horizon we've got the upteenth version of the tick tock ban. If this deal with China doesn't pan. Pan out.

[C]

Yeah, there's definitely been talk of the idea that, I mean whether or not all of those 170 million users definitely transfer over is still TBD because even if you think of a general like subscription model, if you change from one platform to another, you naturally lose some subscribers probably because they've not uploaded their new card details or something like it's just, you naturally just do lose them. But when it comes to TikTok at the moment, there's obviously the, some people that are just with it till it. I want to say, I don't want to say die, but they're with it until it's not there kind of thing. So they're kind of just, they're just, they're complete followers for it. There's the others that are just tired of this whole back and forth situation. So therefore they're just, well, they've already made their bed, they're like they've moved on elsewhere. Plus a lot of, I guess creators, none of them are just exclusive to one platform anymore. So it's kind of like deja vu, let's just keep it moving. But there's also, if you've got an idea of say a Sora app, which was the most downloaded app recently, if that's taking all the attention right now, it's taking attention from somewhere. So really and truthfully, that's probably the one problem with having a new app that's actually a potential front runner. Because yes, it's getting attention that's great for Sora, but what does that mean from like where is that attention coming from? Because it's not like you can invent more hours in a day. So the users are going to have to come from somewhere. So if they're spending more time on Sora, they're spending less time elsewhere.

[A]

And then it becomes a question of like how tolerable will Sora users be of ads? Because I mean this is yet another content feed. So the most natural way to insert ads is just slot in an AI generated ad between some Sora videos. And you have the possible advantage of if everything's AI generated, then everything's going to look more or less the same. It's not going to be the issue that you had with TikTok and other social platforms before where the ads looked very professionally shot and traditional and were appearing alongside videos people shot on their smudgy phones, in their cars. Now everything could look like an ad or not an ad on Sora.

[C]

Yeah, there's definitely like, I mean even just if I think even from like when I was even scrolling through like meta vibes which I can access in the uk. I agree in terms of like it felt empty like because it's not just people uploading it like their own, like videos, pictures, whatever. So it felt empty in that, but it was just, it kind of. I guess I don't want to, I don't necessarily want to use the word happier, but it just felt like a very kind of flat kind of tone going through it. On Sora, if you have ads there, I mean, granted I neither here nor there on it in the sense of, well, you get ads everywhere, but if everything else is fake, how would people know that they can click on that? And if everything else is fake unless.

[A]

Everything becomes clickable, Unless whatever the ad product is gets extended to the. It'd be weird to call it an organic product on Sora, but kind of the non ad version of videos, which feels like there's an opportunity here for product placement. Yeah, the idea kind of like what we were talking about with the cameos example. But if you're creating a video on Sora of someone playing basketball having Nike do some sort of deal with OpenAI where like anytime a basketball is created in a video on Sora for a certain period of time it's a Nike branded basketball and then there's some way for people to like click or swipe on that or otherwise interact with it to get sent a Nike coupon. Or there's just like because everything's AI and ChatGPT just rolled out like instant checkout and the new apps, if then you go into ChatGPT later and buy a Nike basketball through checkout, that's how the attribution happens. Maybe it's just a brand awareness plays, but it feels like with a lot of these, with any AI generated content, there's an ability for the company responsible for the model to have the, to put a finger on the scale to have the model create a Nike branded basketball anytime it's creating a basketball.

[C]

I guess to be fair, I mean it could even open up the idea for like a lot more engagement of like, I mean, putting it out there. Like say if there was like Porsche for example, and if they wanted to, they could have say, like, if the 10 people that create the 10 best AI videos of this Porsche, they get one. I mean, I don't know how, if they'd want to go down that road, but it could definitely get. Generate a hell of a lot more interest in that respect and potentially even bring in more users. But I guess the whole point of AI is it doesn't just limit you to just this world. And that's probably why they're enjoying it, because it's. It takes you be. It's beyond just this 3D world at this point.

[A]

Yeah. Kamiko, is this giving you flashbacks to, like, when Snapchat branded filters were all the rage? Oh, God.

[B]

And we all had rainbow throw up coming out of our mouths? Yeah. I think it's interesting because there seems to be more of a case made for Sora than there is for Meta Vibes, at least for now. And I wonder how much this is keeping Mark Zuckerberg up at night, because typically his approach is, you know, if you can't beat him by him. I don't know if this. I don't know if this is gonna work this time or how much is kind of like being like a wait and see vibe. Right? Because at the same time, that source got a lot going for it in terms of what it could do. I think that also opens up a lot of doors for questions around like regulations and content moderation, IP and things like this. So it'll be curious to kind of see if Meta waits and sees, you know, if they'll mimic what OpenAI is doing with humans versus Lisa Frank dogs or, you know, if they'll just kind of hop in bed with them and figure out the consequences later.

[C]

I mean, when it comes to Zuckerberg, like, I would say, chances are he's already got a crew in his, like, wherever. He has his, like, most important crew sitting outside of his office already working on their version of it. Obviously, like making Vibes better, seeing what they're doing, what can they take? Because when you think as well with Sora, it wasn't that long ago that OpenAI hired an ex Meta employee, correct? Fiji Simo. And even when I was having conversations this week, they were literally saying, you can literally see her fingerprints all over this, that she is someone that is an ex Meta employee, that she has taken all her learnings from that to literally encompass it in this new Sora app. So it's kind of, I guess there's nothing new in the sense of every platform, to an extent copies each other. So this is no different. But I guess Mark Zuckerberg is the king of it when it comes to being that front runner, taking all those features and things that work really well.

[B]

I'm just envisioning him in his Benson Boone costume being like, hey, stop. We've actually got some real business to solve right now. We've got competition. I can't be performing and jumping off of pianos at this moment. I've got real shit to handle.

[C]

What was it There was only. Wasn't it only in the summer when. Because of every time they used to copy Snapchat. That's why Evan Spiegel from Snapchat, that CEO, that's why he put on his LinkedIn profile like VP of product @ Meta.

[A]

It's going to be interesting to see to what extent Meta can copy Sora, because it feels like a lot of this comes down to how good the AI model is at creating video Meta's, working with Bit Journey. And that seems to be why so many of the Vibes videos look like midjourney images of just like too polished to a large extent. Whereas the Sora stuff, like the Sam Altman example, seems to be good at kind of recreating normal videos or videos that don't look so AI generated. I think one of the shoes that still needs to drop on this is how does YouTube respond? Because YouTube just had their big September product event, but that was so much about live streaming. There was some AI stuff in there, some stuff about product placement. But does YouTube feel compelled to roll out a separate app for AI generated shorts or something like it, like a, you know, a VO or a flow only video app? Or do they try to put it into regular YouTube, which feels risky because you have creators like Hank Green who are already railing against the likes of Sora. It feels like there's a lot to lose for YouTube when it comes to this. That said, I don't think YouTube can afford to sit on its hands given the Sora and Vibes.

[C]

Didn't they also as well have new updates to their policies about AI and the usage of it and certain things will be pulled down? If so, it's kind of almost if they then did this, it's not like going back on themselves, but they're kind of sitting on both sides of the fence with it. But I mean, I guess even with shorts that took a while to get some momentum around it. I wouldn't be surprised they're such a massive beast. Regardless, YouTube could do something. It's probably just figuring out what's the best way? So maybe they're the ones not necessarily being the most cautious, but actually waiting to see who does what, what are the mistakes to actually so then they can just come out and actually have a really decent product because they're still recognized as being like the king of monetization for creators. Still. The king of like long form shorts is now obviously having a lot of momentum, especially this year because of the whole situation with TikTok. So it's taken a while to get here, but they are getting here, I think.

[B]

In summary, what we've concluded or my takeaway from this is that we have reached a new front of the short form video arms race with AI being interjected here and also my new personal hell.

[C]

So you're not wrong. I'd say it's definitely like this. I kind of, I'll be liking it to back when Tick Tock was huge, during I guess Covid like everyone was indoors, we all had a lot of time like literally that Tick Tock went massive at least over here in the UK and that whole era that obviously Tick Tock then, because of Tick Tock is why we now have short form video everywhere. This is like the next era of that, except you're not following people anymore. You're looking at videos and things that people have done.

[B]

Well, I guess we'll keep pace and then when the next thing breaks we'll be sure to have you back. But in the meantime, thank you so much for joining us, Crystal, and walking us, walking us through the changes.

[C]

Thanks very much for having me.

[B]

Well, that brings us to the end of this episode of the Digiday Podcast. Thank you to everyone for listening. And please don't forget to share this episode with someone who you think would enjoy it. You can even rate us and leave us a comment on Apple Podcasts. We'll be back next week with another episode of the Digiday Podcast. Thank you so much for joining us.