B (2:46)

Yeah, I think that's a good take. And we talk about this also, like the structure of agencies with AI and how they kind of go about like charging and things like that. I think, needless to say, there's a lot that we have to get through in this year and we try our best to summarize it in this podcast episode, but we'll see how it goes. I imagine CES will tap into some of those things that we've already talked about, but we'll see.

A (3:15)

Yeah, it'll be a year, but that's what the show is for, to figure these things out as we go. And so, yeah, let's get into the conversation with Sarah and Seb talking about what we can expect in 2026.

B (3:42)

Seb, Sarah, welcome back to the show.

C (3:45)

Hi.

D (3:46)

Good to be back.

B (3:47)

I hope you guys had a lovely hiatus. I know last time we had you guys, we talked about everything that was 2025. I think the way that Tim ended it was either unsettling, unnerving, unraveled. One of the words to describe 2025. And I think that sets us up for this year to have a lot in store. You've got a lot of mergers and acquisitions that happen. Consolidation, you've got WPP, not got a new CEO, you've got Omnicom and IfG. You've got Netflix and Warner Brothers and a slew of other things. As we get into what is probably going to be another chaotic year, what trends and stories are you guys keeping an eye. An eye out for? So start with you. What's kind of going to be the thing that you're going to keep your eye out for?

D (4:30)

The thing, maybe this thing, maybe things. Yeah, yeah. There's so many. Right. I think the big one is, is open AI and their long just stay in advertising kind of plans will be, will be interesting to see if they're too late on that, given that, you know, kind of Google is kind of set to launch their own sort of play at some point this year too. And unlike OpenAI, they have a playbook that is kind of tried and tested, battle hardened. So that will kind of be the big thing. And then I did separate to that, you know, the story that really sort.

B (5:15)

Of.

D (5:17)

Kind of concluded last year was last month, sorry, was the, the Omnicom deal for IPG looking at the kind of second order effects of that? You know, I think all kind of standards in good stead for at least the first half of the year, both in terms of the, the impact that the deal will have for existing kind of clients, but also what that means for new ones. I think clients have kind of talked a good game about why the agency model doesn't work for them. So given this year is set to be a year where a lot of pitches happen, particularly in the integrated sort of fashion. So not just kind of media, not just creative, but kind of they'll be doing them in sort of tandem. Will be interesting to see how the omnicom souped up sort of proposition fares through that. I kind of feel like it'll be given a real stress test kind of earlier than maybe many people sort of anticipated. And then within that kind of how does WPP fare? You know, I think that business is in a precarious kind of spot. CEO sort of changed last year. Some big clients kind of walked away from the business. It dropped out of the kind of FTSE 100. What this year means for kind of WPP will be really interesting because I think if it does turn out kind of badly and they do end up being bought by someone, it'll be the kind of the kind of death knell, right, for that kind of Hulko model and a thing for people to sort of point to and say, wow, this is really not kind of fit for purpose anymore and what other kind of alternatives can we look toward? Whether that be so platforms who are automating more sort of advertising, whether it's kind of doing more in house or it's thinking more about user generated content, given so many of the platforms now are putting that power in the hands of kind of people. So I'd say those were the kind of two big ones. But I'm sure we'll get into some of the other kind of big themes of the year throughout this conversation.

A (7:37)

Seb, I'm already tired on your behalf at the things you get to be followed in 2026. Sarah, what about you? What's big on your mind at the start of the year?

C (7:47)

Well, listen, it's a new year. I'm full of excitement and energy to talk and read and write more about advertising. And I know that you all feel the same. I think if last year was the year of a bunch of loose ties, I think this will be the year where the dust settles through all of the stories that Seb mentioned. But I think to speak even more broadly because it has ties in all of them, how AI is going to mature this year is going to be really critical to the success of publishers to media agencies, of course, how OpenAI flirts with all of them through. This will be really interesting to watch. But if the last two years was slow adoption, 2025 was the sort of crash and burn or test and trial phase. This will be the phase where we can sort of see tweaks being made, maybe some layoffs pinned to AI use, whether appropriate or not to do so. So anyway, all that to say I do think this will be the year where the dust settles a little bit and maybe we can end 2026 with firmer, maybe a firmer thesis about what 2027 would look like than we did perhaps at the start of this year.

B (9:04)

Yeah. Tim, what are you watching?

A (9:08)

First, I want to take off the veil of we're recording this on Thursday, December 11th busting. I have no idea what the hell is going to happen.

C (9:17)

What is smarter this year.

A (9:19)

That's going to change everything for me when it comes to thinking about the TV and streaming industry. I mean it's Netflix, Warners. But that's also why I felt like I need to timestamp my comments here because this week alone we had Paramount get back in the game with its hostile takeover attempt of War Brothers Discovery. I don't know what's going to transpire by the end of this year. Bob Iger might come off the top rope and try to make a play for Warner Brothers Discovery. I doubt that'll happen because Disney owns abc, which is a broadcast network which has to answer to the Federal Communications Commission. And the Federal Communications Commission would love to have Bob Iger have to answer for what's going to happen with Warner Brothers Discovery, especially cnn. Even just today President Trump has come out saying I need to see CNN get sold or spun off. I need something to happen. Cnn, which I kind of take to mean he wants to be able to have the Justice Department intervene or whatever powers he can have intervene to dictate CNN's coverage. No idea what's going to transpire about that. If I am sounding like a madman because I can't make sense of things, yes, that's absolutely the case. Because Netflix, Warner Bros. Discovery, that's going to be the big story of 2026. Does that happen and what are the knock on effects of this? If Paramount's hostile takeover attempt falls, what does Paramount then do? Do they make a play to merge with NBC Universal because Comcast owns NBC Universal and they made kind of like half bid for Warner Brothers Discovery. They've even admitted Comcast President Mike Kavanaugh said as much. We didn't really think we were going to end up with it. But we felt like we should make this kind of bid. I'm sure the teams at the business development team at Comcast loved that they had to do that exercise. But what's Comcast going to do? What's Disney going to do? Especially Disney 2026 supposedly is going to be when Disney appoints a new CEO, a successor to Bob Iger, like Google with the third party cookie. They tried this before, it didn't stick. So does it stick this time? And if so, who's it going to be? The two front runners are Josh Tomorrow, who oversees parks, and then Dana Walden, who oversees TV and streaming. The studio entertainment business. Will it be one of those two? If so, if it's Josh Tomorrow, for example, does D. Dana Walden stay over there? Does she leave? Which then creates kind of a leadership vacuum when it comes to Disney's TV and streaming entertainment programming, which is a massive position, especially given the state of streaming. You know, so a lot like something.

B (12:30)

Else that we didn't touch on because I feel like it's just been everything happening everywhere all at once. Right. But also how much of these mergers, acquisitions moves that these players are making are kind of at the mercy not just of the government, but of Trump himself. Right. Which I feel like is a knock on effect that we only have really kind of scratched the surface of here as to how that all plays out. So to your point of like kind of the unknown knockoff and effects, I think that's one of them. Heavy breath.

A (13:03)

Yeah. I mean, we talked about 2025 being a year with a lot of loose ends, as Sarah put it. Are we going to see any of those loose ends get tied together this year? Are they going to create new knots?

B (13:17)

Yeah.

A (13:17)

Are they. Am I going to be able to continue this analogy?

C (13:21)

No one knows you got one more in yet.

A (13:25)

That was the best that I got. I don't know. Aren't they laceless shoes?

B (13:30)

Velcro? Yeah.

A (13:32)

Yeah. Do we upgrade to Velcro? I guess AI would be the Velcro here because it's a space technology. Right.

B (13:42)

And well also maybe, you know, AI is kind of the. It's the gift that keeps on giving at the end of. I don't know how I should be referring to this since you outed us, Tim, about recording this in December.

A (13:55)

But I'm just trying to give us cover because we have no idea what's.

B (14:00)

Because even going back to, you know, just like a couple minutes ago, as the recording of this you've got. OpenAI has released Chachi Beat has released GPT 5.2, which is their more professional model, as they say. And then also Disney a couple hours ago, Disney and OpenAI struck a deal which kind of, I mean, I've already said this, but OpenAI has really made a play for itself in terms of like the platform that will upend what we have known as Silicon Valley's tech platform behemoths. Right. It's a really strong player here.

A (14:40)

Yeah, kind of the quadruply idea. Isn't that it, Seb?

D (14:44)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, the quadruply. Just building on that point now. I think one of the things I am looking at in parallel to everything you just talked about, Kimiko, is I think last year we saw AI dramatically kind of lower the barrier to, of entry to creating content. Right? Not necessarily good content, but content which is kind of watchable enough that it holds people's kind of attention. I think Tim did a really good piece on this on, on the back of kind of the Vibes tab launching. And for me this year I'll be really looking to see who benefits from that barrier being kind of lowered on the sort of tech platform kind of side. Because their major barrier to entry when it comes to taking big pots of ad money, particularly in tv, has been that neither the economics of producing TV style kind of content works in most markets, nor do they have the kind of internal infrastructure, muscle memory to kind of support such an effort. But if they can kind of shift that overtone window when it comes to AI generated content, which ultimately is a commodity that benefits from the economies of scale of those sort of platforms, then that barrier to entry drops away and then becomes a vector that they can then to shift more money over to their businesses. So that just kind of building on your point because it just sort of jogged my memory. That is sort of one we'll be paying close attention to this year as those video powered propositions really start to kind of coalesce in market.

C (16:36)

To your point, Seb, about trying to discern who's winning and who's losing, I think an important responsibility that the industry has, all players involved, is to get on the same page and be consistent about how we're defining each step of the way. I mean, to pick up this sort of conversation last time we chatted, there are varying definitions from GEO to AEO to agentic AI. I mean there is a bunch of new acronyms that have come out of the. I mean, how long did it take us to decide that a lot of generative AI use was being mislabeled as machine learning and vice versa. So you know, I think this year is going to be important. Step one, to put together a playbook of what all these terms mean and determine what the measures of success are going to be before we can even then evaluate to see who is winning. We have to provide some consistency to all of this.

A (17:29)

So are you saying we're going to get a definition to the term AI agent this year? Are you promising this?

C (17:34)

I'll knock on wood again. I'll keep it coming.

A (17:38)

I would love that to be the case. Seb, as you were Talking about the AI of it all, it got me thinking about this OpenAI Disney deal that closed the year that Kimiko mentioned actually just happened a few hours ago as we're recording this. Oh my God, that movie. I don't know that I've left that movie. Or maybe I'm still in Inception. But thinking about that deal for all of the few hours that it's been puts an interesting new question on the Netflix Warners thing. So Disney CEO Bob Iger and its most recent earnings call talked about this idea of incorporating generative AI into Disney people being able to prompt for short form videos within Disney, which is a stepping stone towards hey you know what? I'd really like to watch a new Star wars movie but a ROM com version. Let me prompt Disney for that which is now powered, you know, could be powered by AI. Hafsa to spin that up for me if Netflix were to do something would want to do something similar it. Now if this deal goes through and all of the caveats asterisks ifs on that statement but then I could fire up Netflix and be like you know what, I'm interested in a new Batman movie but set in space and prompt for that. And I wonder if that then changes the nature of acquisitions which are already like pretty IP oriented anyways but also leads to more of these Disney open AI type deals like Amazon owns MGM already they have Rufus. To my knowledge Amazon doesn't have a image model or a video model, but I'm sure they would be working on it if they aren't already spin something up like that does you know nbcu which has all the universal properties do something similar like kind of this become the new I guess it's not battleground marketplace maybe.

D (19:56)

Yeah I think so much of it is predicated on how brave IP owners are at kind of putting their valuable kind of assets brands into the hands of, you know, the consumer. Right. Because It's a complete 180 on how they've gone about these things before you look at something like the Bond franchise that Amazon now owns, and look at how hands on the broccolis have been with that brand for years and years and years and years to then all of a sudden say, you know what, guys kind of feel your boots. Like, you know, you can do whatever you want with it. I find it kind of a real hard kind of circle to square, like, whatever the analogy is. So I don't know, even the Disney deal kind of threw me given, like, they are probably the most controlling when it comes to all of that. So, you know, I wonder if this is kind of like the next brand safety sort of crisis in sort of many respects and how the guardrails around this protect the kind of ip. Because people will always find a way to sort of do something dodgy when they're. When they're given the tools to do it right. Like, we've seen it time and again. Like, there was even the people doing the Coca Cola advert where, you know, you've got people actually sniffing Coke.

A (21:16)

So I wonder the Winnie the Pooh horror movie when the cop thread on that came out.

D (21:21)

Yeah, yeah, well, yeah, right.

A (21:23)

So.

D (21:26)

I love the idea of kind of being able to personalize, like, you know, some of your most kind of favorite characters and brands, like Blade Runner for me or something like that. That'd be amazing. But I do wonder how much they'd be willing to. To go and. Or if we'll get some real kind of simplistic versions of that. Almost like the sort of choose your own adventure type kind of versions of it, where you are really limited as to kind of the scenarios that you can put the characters in.

C (21:55)

Seb, you used the word brave, and I wonder if the word is actually delusional, because I can't imagine a scenario.

A (22:02)

Is there a difference?

C (22:05)

But, like, I actually think personalization is going to be the death of us. I think it's going to be the death of creativity because we are staying in the silos that are comfortable to us. And we've seen this in terms of social fragmentation and we've seen this in terms of the rise of news influencers versus trained journalists, et cetera, et cetera. So for me, the idea of sitting on my couch watching Wally and Lilo of Lilo and Stitch Interact is a nightmare for me. And I don't understand. And perhaps they do embody this feeling. But, you know, philosophically, this is, to your point, like a brand safety issue and a content quality issue. And if there's so much bad content associated with these brands. And if users are creating themselves exactly what they want to see, then what could Disney then possibly offer me that I don't already have? You know what I mean? Does that make sense?

D (23:01)

Yeah. The thing is though, there is. There is an abundance of bad content already. Like, we can choose to avoid it if we want to, and I'm sure they're not going to just kind of force it on us because that would be a surefire way to turn people off of your platform, right? I'm guessing there will be. It will be partitioned off in some way. And if people want to see some random videos of characters doing weird shit, then, you know, kind of fill your boots. You can kind of do it. But if you want the premium stuff that you know has been created by the very best in the business, then you can kind of access it. I kind of feel like there is a way for both to exist. And I don't know if I'm kind of all in on this idea of the death of creative because it's hard, right? It's hard to do what Ryan Coogler does. It's hard to. To bring those stories to life in a real distinctive fashion. I don't think AI really changes that. It just means that there's a lot more shit for that great stuff to be sort of compared to. And in some respects you just reinforce that like where. That. How good that other stuff is.

B (24:18)

Right.

D (24:18)

So I kind of feel like there is probably a way for both to exist. And I think the Vibes tab is an example of that. And as long as you know what your appetite for that slop is, then, you know, I don't know, like, maybe. Maybe there is a place kind of for it. I'm. I'm. Yeah, that would be where I am at this moment in time anyway. I'm sure in a year's time that have changed.

B (24:41)

But you'll need something to watch if TikTok is eventually banned here, right? If. If the doom scrolling goes away on the clocky app.

D (24:50)

Well, like, look, here's an example, right? Like, of kind of. I guess what's informed me a little bit. So I'm using Gemini at the moment to animate like our elf on the shelf for the kids, right? So like I will have it in certain things and I'll show them that it's on a security camera and it's doing stuff like it's nonsense, right. But like the joy it gives them something quite arbitrary. So like that's. So I think that's where like where my thing is kind of informed. Like if you get to sort of bring. Deliver those kind of micro sort of dopamine hits of joy, like based on this stuff, then, you know, kind of fine. Like, I think there is a way to democratize that in a. In a cool way that doesn't have to be like all doom and sort of gloom and sort of, you know, sort of disintermediate or what's the word? Run creatives out of a kind of job in that respect.

A (25:47)

So yeah, it makes me wonder if like Seb, what you're also doing is like media literacy training for 2030 and beyond. I assume they're like thinking this is real at this moment, but I'm sure it also could be helping them to detect what's fake or not. Like Kimiko and I both got doomed and duped in 2025 by the Bunnies on the trampoline.

D (26:14)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think like, that is really what I was trying to say before in a far more eloquent way. Tim. So thank you for saving my bacon. Appreciate you as always.

A (26:26)

I will always save people's bacon and hoard it for myself here I was.

B (26:31)

Wondering if OpenAI was going to release ads this year and now I'm worried about the uncanny valley approaching much sooner than I thought it, than I thought it would at the hands of my own creativity.

A (26:43)

Both could be true. Like, you don't know what that ad product is going to look like, which is, I mean, another thing that I'm really interested to find out in 2026 if this is the year that OpenAI in fact rolls out ads. Now there could be the like super boring version where ChatGPT ads and Google AI mode ads just kind of look like traditional search ads, but with things like Sora, like Vibes. Is there a new style of ad product there? One thing that we had talked about in 2025 was with Sora having cameos, the potential for there to be branded cameos, kind of branded product placements. The opening at Disney deal seems like it would pave the path to that somehow. We don't have understanding of all the financial terms of that, but there was the Wall street journal article about OpenAI really wants McDonald's to put Ronald McDonald on Sora. If I'm making videos featuring Ronald McDonald and not having Ronald McDonald do unsavory things, you can see McDonald's wanting that if it's going to help them sell Big Macs.

D (27:54)

Yeah, maybe UGC becomes like one of the big components of these ad businesses moving forward. Like it isn't necessarily about a typical kind of format, particularly on the video side. It's more about that bit.

A (28:09)

And I mean it already is because 2025 was the year when wasn't it? WPP Media said advertisers were spending more on ugc, on creators than on traditional tv. So like that Rubicon has been crossed. And how does that get built upon in 2026? Like how does the nature of creator brand deals change? You know, IB they had a virtual event, I guess you could call it, in November of 2025 where they kind of raised this idea of does the pricing model for brand and creator deals need to change? Does it make sense to be paying a flat rate or a CPM based on like reach or views? Or does it need to be something like. I think it was Jiyoung Kim from WPP Media who like floated out engagement metrics or like completed views as something more in line with that. Also 2026, YouTube's going to start testing dynamic brand insertions with some creators, which I am just endlessly fascinated by ever since Kamika. You and I did an episode where we talked about creator and brand deals and got to talking about dynamic brand insertions. But the idea of Mr. Beast, Michelle Carre could then have their like traditional sponsored reads in their videos, but swap those and if there's an ability to swap out inventory that gives them an ability to sell based on Windows, you can buy out my entire channel for this month. Kind of like tv. And so we had creator attempts at Creator upfronts in 2025 with spotters up front in the spring. And then YouTube had like a kind of upfront style presentation in November where it showed off like some new shows from creators like Cleo Abram, Mark Robert. But do we see actual upfront style deals with creators in 2026? If and when this YouTube dynamic brand insertion rolls out fully to creators or at least to like the top 1% of creators.

B (30:24)

I think it'll be interesting to see how that all plays out with creators. I think last year you saw a lot of them start to have conversations about the lifespan of a creator and this kind of feeds into that. Like how do you monetize yourself beyond like brand deals given like launching agencies and products and things like that? Something that I've kind of dubbed like the Mr. Beast route here by like, do you start your own platform and end up on like Amazon prime or something like that? But they've got to figure out a way to, you know, once that, what do you call it, the viral moment has passed. Right. What then becomes of, of, of your business? And I think the dynamic insertion and things like that in the upfront is a better way to lock in deals for those that are thinking more long term and what this looks like for them as a monetization route so they can set up that good, good retirement plan for a 1K.

D (31:16)

Yeah. And I kind of wonder how on top of that, the kind of. More like that kind of real focus on the commercial aspect of these deals kind of almost starts to really create that distinction between what an influencer and a creator actually is. Because I feel like we use that word, we use those terms interchangeably when ultimately they are different things. Right.

A (31:43)

What is the difference? I've never understood the difference. I've had multiple people try to argue there being a difference and every time I'm just like, nope, not buying it.

D (31:51)

I think arguably the influencer is more about, you know, kind of the reach a more traditional sort of media buy. And the creator would be something a brand would do, would really sort of do something in partnership with. I'm trying to think of a good analogy for it, but like, that would be how I'd sort of. The influence is more of a commoditized version of what a creator is like in my mind. I can tell you're not buying it, Tim, but that's. I'm sticking with that.

A (32:18)

I love you. Yeah, I'm not buying it. I don't know. Like, like, because in both cases it's a brand paying an individual to create some kind of content. And so I don't. That seems to be like the foundational element in both respects. I don't know at what point the nature of the deal diverges, where. And this is what makes it a creator deal and this is what makes it an influencer deal. Because ultimately it's still the person making, whether it's a video or photo or whatever content on behalf of the brand. Right.

D (32:56)

I, Yeah, I would say that the influencer is fully dependent on that type of thing, whereas the creator has a lot more irons in the fire. But I get your point. Can agree to disagree. We're past.

A (33:12)

I am interested though in like how the nature of those deals evolve because. So what was it? IB just put out a study where talking about all the money being spent on creators from advertisers, what stood out most to me with that is more of. Because they also broke down. Like, where is that money going? How much of it is going to the creators. How much of it is going to paid media to promote the content the creator is making more of it's going towards the paid media promotions than to the creators themselves. Now creators get some of that money in a way because there are usage rights as part of these deals. If you know, brand supreme creator for to make an Instagram video and the brand wants to run that as ads, run it on its own accounts, that's where the usage terms come in. And generally with that there's a time limit to it, whether it's a month, three months, six months, a year. One thing I'll probably have a future of TV briefing on this, maybe the second week of January. But one thing that's starting to become more commonplace is for there to be pre negotiated renewal terms to that and extension terms to that because the creators and their representatives are getting more savvy of more of the money is going towards that paid promotion. So we need to make sure that like if that's where so much of the value is for the brands, that we're getting a proportional piece of that value. Also like, it raises the question. There was someone I was talking to on the creator talent management side of things recently who was saying they don't have a good way of policing for that. If a brand takes a creator's content and puts it up on the brand's own Instagram or TikTok, then it's easy enough to check for that. If they're running it as ads across Instagram, TikTok or CTV. Maybe someone close to that creator or their team sees the ad and says yo, I didn't realize you're still like doing this with this brand. It's been a year, but otherwise the creator's gonna have no idea. And the person I was talking to was making the point like meta at that point didn't have any like really take down tools for this kind of things or way to police it. That may be changing. I need to like check back in on that. But I think usage rights is going to be a big focal point when it comes to influencer marketing or creator marketing, whatever we want to call it. Tomato, tomato, tomato, potato.

B (35:56)

Exactly, exactly. I think that will be one to watch. I've already heard that influencers and creators are starting to charge more. Just like acknowledging how usage rights are kind of the silver ticket, they're charging more around that as that becomes a greater point of not contention but tension between brands and, and creators.

A (36:15)

What about publishers in 2026? Like so much of the Conversation around publishers always is what a difficult business it is to be in. I don't imagine that's going to change. I imagine, you know, at the Digiday Publishing Summit in Vail in March, probably a lot of that conversation is going to be like, God, what do we do about AI platforms siphoning traffic or taking our content? How do we preserve our money from that which has been the conversation at both publishing summits in 2025? Answers are farther and fewer between. Fewer and farther between.

B (36:57)

Do you think that this becomes a situation where media once again puts its faith in tech overlords? The pivot to Facebook, the pivot to video becomes the pivot to AI and publishers are once again left with the short end of the stick. I almost wonder if it's like a history repeating itself here, just with different players.

C (37:15)

I also wonder whether, you know, do you develop your AI tools internally and then you face possibly over indexing and becoming too much of a tech company like we've seen happen before. Do you try and float these licensing agreements? You know what, what we haven't seen so much of this year was speaking of IP but sort of the like Netflix series spun out that we really saw those like Netflix deals or some streaming deals from publishers that were really buzzy three years ago at this point, I don't know. So what, what IP looks like for publishers in terms of not only AI, but in terms of how that plays out in this streaming wars I think is going to be interesting too.

B (38:07)

I think when the dust settles around some of these lawsuits, we'll have better clarity on who gets to be the ultimate victor and maintain their I. P. Right now, authors, media companies, publishers, I think have kind of seen the short end of the stick. But to your point, and the days running together here. But at, at some point in the conversation, sir, you made the point like it'll take a matter of publishers coming together to band a strong enough front to really make a case for themselves to I guess be able to, to get their, our share of the pie when it comes to like IP usage rights and things like this.

A (38:50)

Yeah, yeah. I mean publishers are having to adapt to AI, agencies are having to adapt to AI. You know, I think one thing all of us are probably very Interested in in 2026 is what's this strategic plan that WPP and it's still new ish CEO Cindy Rose are going to unveil? I believe they said early in 2026, whatever. Early can be any time. It really.

B (39:19)

Yeah, they've had a, a hell of a 2025. And it'll be interesting to see because I think there's a lot of two things that I think that people are watching and putting a lot of bets on. Right. Is Cindy Rose and what she'll do to kind of turn the business around. And if it's AI products, it's white service. White label products will be enough to drum up interest to again, turn the, turn the ship around. That'll be a really, really big one to watch. Especially since, like, in light of Omnicom and ipg, where it's just become Omnicom, IPG and everybody else.

D (39:54)

I think just as worryingly, though, it doesn't seem like they have a strategy yet. Right. Given they brought in McKinsey to help them concoct one. So I think that's. That's pretty.

B (40:03)

That's never a good sign.

D (40:04)

Well, like, if you, if I'm a client, I pay WPP to get me out of jams like this, and they can't even get themselves out of jam. It's not a good look, really, is it? Like, so it will be interesting to see how different the plan is compared to what they've been trying to do for what seems like a decade now, I'll say that.

A (40:29)

And we've been talking about like all of these big things, so much of which revolve around AI. One of the big things that in some ways feels quaint by comparison at the same time is going to potentially have a massive impact is what happens on the ad tech side of things in 2026, and not just the question of AI agents getting involved in things like Ad Context protocol and the Agentic RTB framework, which is a terrible name because it's not really what it refers to. But we can have that conversation another time. But not just like AI agents getting into programmatic workflows, but I mean, I guess potential big one is this Google Ad tech antitrust case and the remedies. Now, the search antitrust case, the remedies came out in 2025 and they were a womp.

B (41:27)

Womp.

A (41:27)

Like not huge changes from it. Seb, any reason to believe. How consequential are you expecting the remedies in the Google Ad tech antitrust case.

D (41:39)

To be not very consequential. I think the case is like, what, several years, a decade too late at this point.

A (41:49)

So.

D (41:53)

The remedies don't really sound like they're going to kind of do much to change the dynamics in the market. Right. Particularly given that happening at a period of time when Google is essentially transitioning to a newer version of that kind of system. So yeah, it's a bit of a one month and I can't. These are all. And I think the thing is these are all remedies that kind of Google has already sort of kind of put forward anyway. Right. So I think that tells you everything you need to know it as to kind of how serious they're, they're they're going to be. And then you know, to some respects Google.

A (42:35)

Let me tell you what my punishment should be exactly.

D (42:38)

And you know, I think Google has kind of over the last what, three or four years anyway managed the decline of that the networks that are part of the business kind of well, so to a point where any commercial kind of hole that would have been caused by a remedy is going to be immaterial now anyway. So yeah, game set a match with Google, I think on that front.

A (43:03)

Do you expect any like carry on effects or developments on the demand side, platform side of things? Because you know, as we talked about in the 2025 recap episode, Amazon DSP versus the Trade Desk was kind of like the ad tech story, at least in my mind of 2025. I wonder if that takes on not just like the two of them, but if these ad tech remedies in the Google case come out and they're somewhat mild or at least like they preserve DV360. Because I wonder if Google is kind of quiet with DV360 in 2025 because it didn't want to draw attention from the judge in this case if then Google starts getting more aggressive with DV360 or if we see something happen with Yahoo DSP, if that gets acquired by maybe OpenAI swoops in or at Netflix, if Netflix is acquiring Warner's and is feeling inquisitive, wants to get in on that. Or even SEB at the Digiti Programmatic Marketing Summit in December earlier this month, since I already timestamped this conversation. You had a conversation with Ellen Savage from Mindgroove where she talked about this meta dsp. Not meta as in Facebook, but a DSP kind of like wrapper where they could be buying using this single interface to be buying through multiple different DSPs.

D (44:34)

Yeah, which I'm not entirely sure what the benefit would be beyond a workflow point given that those platforms are going to be, they're going to be separate. So unless they found a smart way to kind of bridge the gaps between all kind of three or four, I think it was, she said they bid through, I'm not entirely sure. Kind of like the what that type of meta DSP kind of means more structurally, I guess, in the market. I think on the DSP front, yeah, that will be the kind of big ad tech story next year, this year, next year, this year, whenever it is.

A (45:14)

But it's all the same time's the circle.

D (45:18)

But I think it will be a continuation of what we've seen this year. Right. The trade desk under pressure. But I think if it was really just about kind of Amazon making inroads that I, I do think Next we'll see DV360 start to be a bigger force in market given how aggressive Google is now about monetizing Amazon in a bigger way. I think we've sort of talked about that already like at the top of the call, but DV360 is going to be a massive part of that. And so I think things are about to go from bad to really bad for the trade desk because it's going to, it's going to have its sort of USP really sort of chipped away and Amazon and Google cannot just kind of hit it on, on sort of price, but they also have the data that means that it becomes a more performative way to buy the open web in a way that I don't think the traders can really match. And so does it have to get dragged into the kind of price war that the platforms have kind of set? And if that happens, I kind of think there's only going to be two winners in that one. It's not the traders.

A (46:46)

Sarah, do you think we're going to have enough to cover in 2026?

C (46:50)

I don't know, guys. Sounds like a slow year. No, it's. This is. I was being tongue in cheek earlier when I was saying I was excited for 2026, but especially being as a generally unhappy person that I am. But hearing you all talk is very exciting to think about what coverage is going to shape like next year and so many stories to follow. Hopefully you all can take a nice holiday break because we will certainly be hitting the ground running when we come back.

A (47:18)

Yeah, I think as reporters the worst situation is to for things to be boring and they are certainly not that. Kimiko, we are going to have too much to talk about on the show this year.

B (47:30)

Yeah. Well, thank you so much, Seb and Sarah for joining us to yap about 2026 and what is on the horizon for us here at Digiday. Thank you. Thank you. Well, that brings us to the end of this episode of the Digiday Podcast. Thank you to everyone for listening. And please don't forget to share this episode with someone who you think would enjoy it. You can even rate us and leave us a comment on Apple Podcasts. We'll be back next week with another episode of the Digiday Podcast. Thank you so much for joining us.