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- [00:02]
Patrick Callanan
What's intrusive is I'm trying to make a phone call and there's an ad that pops up between me and being able to make my phone call or trying to send a text message. So I think that realistically, like carriers, OEMs, any partners in this space like Unity, we just have to think of our own device experience and we always have to ask that question, do we want this on our phone? Would this be a good experience for us? And if the answer is no, we shouldn't pursue it. And again, I think that that's where we go back to like the app install suite that we've been running with Unity for a number of years. That typically is about a 30 to a 40 second experience on your device as you're unboxing your new phone. And it cuts out a lot of time that you would have to go into the Google Play store and download individual apps one by one. So there is a clear value to that.
- [00:51]
Narrator
That's Patrick Callanan, TR general manager of mobile monetization at T Mobile Advertising Solutions, our sponsor on this episode of the Digiday Podcast. Later in the show, Custom Intelligence talks with Patrick and Lee London, head of Aura US at Unity, about mobile changing consumer preferences and maximizing the app install experience.
- [01:18]
Kimiko McCoy
Foreign. Hello. Hello and welcome to another episode of the Digiday Podcast, a show for human people and not their digital twins. I'm Kimiko McCoy, senior marketing reporter here at Digiday.
- [01:39]
Tim Peterson
I'm Tim Peterson, executive editor of Video and Audio Digiday Media. Kamika, I guess. Should we disclose that this isn't in fact our actual human persons, not our digital twins talking? Right, right now?
- [01:51]
Kimiko McCoy
Absolutely. You are on a podcast, trapped with me and my thoughts. The human one.
- [01:57]
Tim Peterson
The human thoughts, yeah. So digital twins. I feel like digital twin is quietly the most dystopic term that's come about since the rise of ChatGPT and generative AI.
- [02:12]
Kimiko McCoy
Yeah, I would say so. And there's so many different definitions of digital twins, which is why I feel like it's probably a good thing that we spend some time like, defining this. My interpretation is similar to like an AI clone is how I've seen it mostly described where someone takes my likeness, my face, and creates a. It's literally a clone of me. Now, I don't know who wants that, but that's how I interpret it.
- [02:39]
Tim Peterson
Oh yeah. And I don't think it's even just your likeness, your voice, but also your thought patterns in a way, because I feel like a lot of digital twins it's the process seems to be okay. We're going to bring you in, we're going to have a bunch of cameras around you and we're going to take some like really high res photos of your entire self, either your entire like head or upper body or your just entire body in general. And then we're going to bring you into an audio recording studio. We're going to have you read a bunch of words so that we can then capture your voice, your inflection, your accent, all of that. And then we're also going to go through, let's say you're a podcast host, your entire podcast library to hear not only your speech patterns but also understand like your thinking patterns, your communication patterns maybe if you're a writer. We're also going to go through your entire, you know, written archive to understand like how you think too. We're going to then process all this data and effectively create the like ChatGPT version of you, but also give that a digital face and a digital voice. And that's just right now because we don't have physical robots just yet. But when I think of digital twins, I think of those sci fi movies where someone creates a clone of themselves so that that clone can go to work or do the stuff that they don't want to do. And then the human person can just stay at home. But then at some point the clone becomes sentient and decides, actually, I want my own life and I'm going to now trap you.
- [04:23]
Kimiko McCoy
So the process that you're describing happened actually earlier this month with Real Madrid coach Jose Mourinho and Coca Cola. So Coca Cola, they've been pushing the envelope when it comes to their AI a lot here recently over the past two years.
- [04:36]
Tim Peterson
Pushing the envelope, this is a putting
- [04:38]
Kimiko McCoy
it lately pissing people off with the use of a. But earlier this month they did some work with Mourinho where essentially he came in to produce this spot that'll happen around the World cup. Right. It was like a debate style piece of content that'll live on social where Marino after each World cup play is like debating himself on how it should have gone. So the digital twin thing is starting to pick up. Mourinho actually did this similar something with Snickers a couple years ago. You've seen it from Avocados of Mexico with Rob Riggle. So digital twin is becoming more popular here is what I'm seeing.
- [05:15]
Tim Peterson
Yeah, and this seems like a departure from kind of some of the digital likeness stuff we've seen in the past where there's like the digital likeness in terms of, you know, the movie the Irishman, where Martin Scorsese used to.
- [05:30]
Patrick Callanan
I think.
- [05:31]
Tim Peterson
I don't remember if it was like AI was part of it. I think machine learning was part of it, which is subset of AI. We're not going down that path, but basically to create younger versions of Robert De Niro, Al Pacino, Joe Pesci. And then there's the like, AI light version of the. I don't even know that this is AI, but the digital likeness version where it's. We're going to create a digital replica of a person, but we're going to feed that digital replica like an actual script or like give it preset options of what it can say in response to people's messages. Whereas what you're talking about with Jose Mourinho, it seems like this is AI in the sense of ChatGPT, generative AI where it's able to craft entirely new in quotes, because AI, nothing is actually new, everything's recycling. But is able to, again quotes, air quotes, think in real time.
- [06:33]
Kimiko McCoy
That's exactly it. Now, I will say when I had the opportunity to talk to talk to Coke and if you haven't read the story on DJ Day site, please do. But when I had the opportunity to talk to them, one of the big themes here was that it took a while to put together because there was so much sign off needed from Mourinho's team to ensure that the likeness was in line with what he wanted and what he'd actually say and like, within brand safety guidelines here. So as much as it's progressed, there's still this process of, like, we cannot allow it to become a sentient being, as you said earlier, and kind of make its own decisions without having that final approval, which has really been a theme here in our conversations around AI, without having that final approval from a human. And I think that's the difference between a digital twin and an AI clone, if you will, to the point you were making earlier, where the twin kind of has the ability of the AI layer to talk and be based on you, the likeness. Whereas the AI clone to me, kind of. Do you remember the Xfinity commercial from earlier this year with Jurassic park, where they essentially took the actors and, like, made them the age that they would have been during the show, during the time of the premiere of Jurassic Park? I'll explain.
- [07:47]
Tim Peterson
Okay, so the digital likeness stuff we were talking about.
- [07:50]
Kimiko McCoy
Exactly. But as opposed to, like, AI, like allowing them to act in real time it was like a scripted series, obviously. Right. So to me, that's the difference between the two.
- [07:58]
Tim Peterson
Okay, but that's not an AI clone, that's just digital replica.
- [08:04]
Kimiko McCoy
This is me getting caught up in the AI is everything blanket statement. Excuse me?
- [08:09]
Tim Peterson
Yeah, because I think of like digital twin and AI clone as synonymous. Because in both cases I think like the AI component, the ability, specifically generative AI for the AI to come up with words for the digital twin to say or actions for the digital twin to perform. That's the difference between this and the digital replica stuff of. Here's young Jeff Goldblum in this.
- [08:39]
Kimiko McCoy
That's what I was thinking of.
- [08:40]
Tim Peterson
I have no memory of. But with the. So you mentioned with Jose Mourinho. So Coke is having Jose Mourinho debate himself or is it going to be what, two AI versions of Jose Mourinho debating each other?
- [08:56]
Kimiko McCoy
Exactly. This is something, I think that Serena Williams had something similar with Nike maybe two or three years ago where they made this AI generated Serena Williams where she like played herself. I think it was like the, what was it, 1997 version versus, you know, 2017. Don't quote me on things. But essentially. And so this is kind of the same thing where the, I think it was football company Coca Cola Grail and Google Tools kind of all working together to be able to produce this AI version of Mourinho who he sits down after the game and AI allows him to say what they think he would have said in this situation versus another AI version of what Mario would have said and he just debates himself. At one point, one of the clones walks off stage. It's insane.
- [09:46]
Tim Peterson
Okay, what was their process of creating this digital twin of Mourinho?
- [09:51]
Kimiko McCoy
That was really interesting because when I had the opportunity to conversate, to have a conversation with them about it, the traditional turnaround time versus how long it took to create this AI clone, the clone took longer to do because there were so many sign offs that were needed to keep the AI within the parameters that were set to make sure as opposed to, to, you know, if the whole intent is to have the AI speed up the process and make, you know, quotes and things like that ready to go. They've actually got a war room built to ensure that each of Mourinho's, you know, plays, debates, yada, yada, yada, are signed off on. So on the front end, it seemed like a really, really heavy lift here to kind of get this all into place to do.
- [10:37]
Tim Peterson
So what's the point of doing it then
- [10:41]
Kimiko McCoy
from my understanding, it's a precedent. Precedent, excuse me, that's set now. Right. That kind of creates a processes for later on down the road. So if you go to do something like this again, the processes are already in place to be able to do.
- [10:55]
Tim Peterson
Okay, so they know the steps. So if they want to rope in another athlete or celebrity to do some sort of digital twin campaign, they know the steps, what they need to do, what the contracts would look like, all that.
- [11:08]
Kimiko McCoy
Exactly. And mind you, as we said at the beginning of this podcast, Coca Cola doesn't seem to be slowing its horses at all when it comes to what they want to do with AI. So I could absolutely see something like this happening again.
- [11:21]
Tim Peterson
Yeah. And so what were the guardrails or the boundaries or the third rails in this case when it came to the creation of digital Mourinho?
- [11:31]
Kimiko McCoy
So they didn't give me specifics on what the guardrails were. What they told me is that there was just an approval process that happened. So every time that, you know, the process is they have Mourinho sit down, they study his likeness, they study his movements and things like this. But in that war room after, you know, the play has happened, the World cup match has happened, or whatever that is then digested by the humans in the war room, they work with the AI and then after the AI kind of cues up what it thinks this debate should look like, there's another approval process to ensure that before this content goes out to go live on Football coast channels that has been approved by a human. So again, slog of a process, but sets a precedent for if they want to move forward.
- [12:14]
Tim Peterson
So they ran through the process with real Jose Mourinho, recorded all his actions, speech patterns, everything like that. But then when they run this process after a World cup game to have him react, they're going to have the AI generate this video debate, but they're going to review that before the debate actually gets posted in case, like, he's, I don't know, picking his nose or something. Hey, I'm a reading is picking his nose.
- [12:39]
Kimiko McCoy
Yes, precisely. I think there, you know, there's a lot of concern to ensure that because you're working with a celebrity talent here, right. And even though it's AI, their reputation is still on the line. So I think there's a big concern to ensure that even though this is supposed to exit out the process, you don't want to risk the AI going off, you know, the handles and becoming, I don't know, picking this nose like
- [13:01]
Tim Peterson
you said, okay, Because I feel like so often when generative AI gets invoked for marketing, the two big reasons for it, or the benefits of it are we're going to be able to do something quicker and cheaper than we could otherwise do it. This doesn't seem to have been quicker, at least in this kind of pilot of the process. Was it cheaper? Did Coke save money? Are they paying Mourinho less money than they would be paying him if he had to do actually perform each of these debates?
- [13:35]
Kimiko McCoy
So the argument that Coke is making, and I actually had the opportunity to talk to someone who heads up AI at an agency and one of the things, and the things that they mentioned essentially is like, while they can't speak to like the cost savings, nobody seems to have a very good grasp on that in my reporting. But what they can speak to, because
- [13:55]
Tim Peterson
that's not important money, what they can
- [13:58]
Kimiko McCoy
speak to is this idea of like, if I had two weeks, right, to put this shoot together and I, and I only had a finite amount of time with the talent that I've got, and that kind of puts a parameters on how much content you can get out of this. So maybe you got your 32nd spot, a couple of trims down for social and some photos, right? But that content is finite. What the AI allows you to do, or the digital twin, if you will, the AI clone is I can now make infinite versions with approval, of course, infinite versions of this, this talent that I've got here. So that is the argument for like what cost savings and production costs and things like that look like. So less of like we save $20,000 and more. So I can make this content last for years and years because I've got endless amounts of content thanks to the AI clone.
- [14:51]
Tim Peterson
But that gets into the rights conversation, which gets interesting here because does Coke have the rights to this digital twin of Jose Mourinho in perpetuity or is it limited to just this campaign?
- [15:04]
Kimiko McCoy
Now, this was made. That's a good question. And I don't know, they didn't say. But this was made in, in partnership with Football Co's editorial team, right? And then there was Grail, which is a entertainment studio and management company as well as Google. So the process of divvying that all up, I'm assuming that it's Grail, which is the management studio and Mourinho's team who would have the rights to this.
- [15:32]
Tim Peterson
Okay, yeah. One of the reasons I ask is because, like, so when the Screen Actors Guild, sag, AFTRA had their Big AI. AI was like the big focal point of its. So you remember the Hollywood work stoppage from a few years ago where the writers went on strike, the directors or the actors went on strike. So as part of that renegotiation, SAG AFTRA renegotiated with the film and TV studios around the use of AI to create AI replicas of actors. And one of the stipulations in that was that a film or TV production would need an actor's consent to use their AI, their digital twin, in a production, but also that the consent was limited to that given project. So let's say Disney's doing a movie with Scarlett Johansson, who's been very much at the forefront of the AI conversation in Hollywood, and they create an AI replica of Scarlett Johansson for a movie. Let's say it's a new Black Widow movie, she would have to give consent for that. They could then use it for that movie. But if they want to do a sequel, they would have to get her consent all over again for, for that sequel, which would also create an opportunity for her or her team to renegotiate payment for that sequel so that it's not a one and done deal where she's getting a one time payment and Disney gets to use her likeness in perpetuity.
- [17:03]
Kimiko McCoy
Which kind of takes me back to. In theory, I see the benefits of having an AI clone or a digital twin. Right? Because the hypothesis is I can make infinite amounts of content.
- [17:15]
Lee London
But.
- [17:15]
Kimiko McCoy
But if there are so many stopgaps where I've got to get approval and pay out every time I'm using this, I can't help but wonder but like, what is the actual efficiency that's being found here? And can you put a dollar amount to it? If I've got to pay out every time I use this and I've got to go through the red tape every time, you know, before allowing this to go live.
- [17:38]
Narrator
I'm Christina Koh, senior editor at Custom Intelligence, Digital Media's in house agency. In this podcast interstitial story sponsored by T Mobile Advertising Solutions, we speak with Patrick Callanan, the company's general manager of mobile monetization and Lee London, head of Aura US at Unity, about mobile changing consumer preferences and maximizing the app install experience.
- [18:02]
Patrick Callanan
Yeah, I mean I think most of the mobile disconnect comes with the way investments are typically made on user acquisition and that's about it. So just getting the app on the device is incredibly important. It's incredibly important for your retargeting efforts in order to make the journey much easier for the user to convert. But what's also important is retention and engagement. And that's what I think we've really seen over the last couple years. AT T ads is the ability to drive individuals into an app, often, which helps with any app that's generating ad revenue. It helps with any app that's trying to generate a cost per order. But at the end of the day, if you're spending money to get an app on the device, you should also spend just as much money, if not more, to get users to engage with it.
- [18:53]
Narrator
And some of these efforts are going toward discoverability beyond the app stores, especially as consumer behavior evolves. And as Lee London from Unity explains, updating App Store listings doesn't bring in new users.
- [19:08]
Lee London
Yeah, so finding a new app today is really hard. So discovery and discoverability, there are new applications and games being released every single day. And knowing what's quality, what's going to work for me is incredibly hard to stand out for any app. So Discovery is really moving off the App Store itself and more into experiences and devices that users are just using on the mobile device. So we see that it's like some brands are optimizing their store listings and it's just capturing demand that was already existing. So it's like, hey, you're going to go into the App Store and you're going to search for something and that demand is here. But to create growth in discovery, it's surfacing experiences at the right time when users are looking for new apps. So it's like a great example of this is an onboarding. You have a context window where I turn on a device and I'm setting up my device and right now it's like, I have a new device, maybe I'll get a new app, we'll have a new game, we'll have a new something, and this is the right time to present this to users. This is really the Unity T Mobile partnership of what we've built is finding that discoverability window when users are looking for something new. And then it's like having the right on device placement to provide the app install.
- [20:24]
Narrator
App installs can be an aspect of mobile advertising that many brands overlook, but it's been successful for both T Mobile and Unity as Patrick expands on, while offering many benefits to users over the years.
- [20:36]
Patrick Callanan
Yeah, I see our partnership with Unity to be really focused on discovery. We partner with Unity on the app install suite, which is really focused on the unboxing of a new phone. And our goal there is to get the apps that you want on your phone on the device as quickly as possible and also as efficiently as possible. But we also want to enable you to discover new apps that are going to make your device experience significantly better.
- [21:00]
Narrator
As brands increasingly seek the attention of younger audiences, understanding how they interact with their phones is crucial to delivering their desired experiences.
- [21:08]
Lee London
Yeah, I think of this as really. It's like mobile native audiences of just the phone isn't a channel, it's the default storefront for everything they do in their lives. So discovery is happening on these devices in a flow for what they're already doing. They're not just opening the store, they're not going and searching. It's just how they find things is just through using their device and everything that they're doing in a given day. And for brands like the bar is really high. The stat we all hear is like, you have eight seconds to grab attention before it's like a. It's like a mobile native is already moving on to the next. The next thing. So you have to quickly provide the value. And that value, it can't interrupt the experience and it needs to be. It's like relevant to a user and that's really creating these experiences where you're on an application, you're in a flow, and a user can quickly skip to the next if it's not relevant, but also trying to get it in front of a user when it makes sense.
- [22:03]
Narrator
You've been listening to Lee London, head of Aura Us at Unity, and Patrick Callanan, general manager of mobile monetary monetization at T Mobile Advertising Solutions, our sponsor on this episode. And now back to the Digiday podcast.
- [22:23]
Tim Peterson
Well, and I also wonder, like, at what point and maybe this is already happening and I'm just not aware of it, but, like, it feels like it would make a lot of sense for someone like Jose Mourinho, who, as you mentioned, he's done this campaign now with the digital twin for Coca Cola, but he did one a couple years ago for Snickers. Shouldn't he just create his own digital twin that he could then license to these brands and that he owns the digital likeness?
- [22:51]
Kimiko McCoy
To me, that seems like an obvious next step to just have parameters kind of set in place already so you can just kind of grab it and go off the shelf as opposed to making these stop gaps which would kind of like hold up the timeline and cost more money. If I was Mourinho, I could see absolutely a use case being made here and tons of money being forked over to me for my digital twin, where I don't even have to show up to the studio, right?
- [23:15]
Tim Peterson
Although I guess, like, the balance that needs to be struck there is the scarcity. Because if he's just licensing his digital twin everywhere and anywhere, then it's not as valuable to get Jose Mourinho or even AI Jose Mourinho in a campaign. On the other hand, if I would think, like, a good balance would be a Jose Mourinho gets licensed to local businesses. Like, maybe it's, you know, local businesses in Madrid to go along with his, you know, becoming the coach of Real Madrid. But then if you're clearly not, in this case, a Coca Cola, but if you're a big brand who has the budget, maybe that's where it's just like, okay, you can afford Human Jose Mourinho, but here's the, like, premium we're going to charge you for Human AI Jose
- [24:09]
Kimiko McCoy
Mourinho Ogilvy did something similar with Cadbury, the. The candy confectionary brand. They did something similar back in 2022 with Indian actor Shahrukh Khan, so local businesses could actually use his likeness. So they did it the same way where you studied the AI generated the study the human to make an AI generated version of him, to be able to localize this for businesses. So that's already happened a couple of years ago. And I suspect that as the digital twin concept starts to pick up for bigger brands, that local businesses see the benefit here too.
- [24:42]
Tim Peterson
All right. Do you think the digital twin concept is going to pick up for brands? I imagine it's going to pick up for brands CMOs who are budget conscious, let alone their CFOs. But one thing I worry about is there's such a strong backlash to AI and especially AI generated content that I wonder if Coke's going to get flamed for AI Jose Mourinho and that, like, other brands are similarly going to get flamed for. And not just the brands, but maybe the celebrities themselves for these AI replicas where it's just like, one, what you couldn't afford the actual performer. Two, doesn't this go against that? I. I hate how much of a buzzword this has become in marketing, but, you know, nonetheless, it has been a buzzword in marketing for a reason. Doesn't it go against the whole authenticity trend?
- [25:36]
Kimiko McCoy
That word makes me want to take my ears off and put them in my purse. I think, yes. And you know what? I think there's. There's a lot of backlash to AI but the thing that I find interesting is like, even though there's a discrepancy in like what marketers deem as how people see AI consumers versus how consumers actually see AI, there seems to be an acceptance one. If it's like this tongue in cheek moment and if it is disclosed as much, right. Where it's very clearly like this is a bit and you're allowed to be in on the joke, I think where people start having an issue is where they start to feel duped or if they feel as though, I hate to use the word, that it was inauthentic and you're trying to play my emotions when I had the opportunity to talk to some agency execs about that very thing, that's kind of what they were seeing on their end is if you do it very cheeky, tongue cheek, people are okay with it. They feel like they're in on the joke, otherwise you run the risk of pissing them off.
- [26:35]
Tim Peterson
But how do you do it tongue in cheek with just the AI digital twin? Because I feel like one way you do it tongue in cheek is you have the AI digital twin do the spokesperson thing in the ad and then you have the real person come into frame and be like, what are you doing? That's my line. Or something like that. But then you're still having to pay for the actual person.
- [26:57]
Kimiko McCoy
I think that I don't know how they square that and I don't know how long that'll stand to be the case where people aren't pissed off about it. Because again, if it's two AI clones talking to one another, you know, the authenticity thing kind of stands to be at risk because there is no real human that's in the room or on your screen that's talking to you. So I think right now it's a novelty, Right? But if that novelty or when that novelty wears off, then that kind of lays bare like what is the authenticity here and how willing are people to accept that.
- [27:34]
Tim Peterson
Yeah, and I just, again, I think, I think it's going to be really difficult for people to accept the digital twins in marketing campaigns or the bar is going to be really high to do it. Well, because even I'm not like a huge soccer fan, but if I were to come across AI Jose Mourinho, you know, doing a post game report on one of these World cup matches and that's properly disclosed and it's clear this is AI Jose Mourinho, I'm immediately discounting whatever he says because I'm just like that's not really Jose Mourinho. That's not really his thoughts. That's like the AI. That's the. The median version of what he may think about this match. Because that's AI. It's the most generic version of anything and everything.
- [28:28]
Kimiko McCoy
That's actually a really good point. The. You know what? I actually talked to some creatives as well about their takes here, and one of the things that they mentioned, first of all, they were not into the idea of digital twin at all when a human is involved. And the rationale was the entire premise of having a person at the helm of your ad campaign. Right. Especially if they're a celebrity, is a thought pattern, is a celebrity has endorsed this product, this message, this, you know, yada, yada, yada, whatever it is. And if the AI clone is now speaking on behalf of the actual person, it waters down the authenticity that's there. So the rationale becomes me as a consumer. If, you know, Hillary Duff is embracing the AI, Hillary Duff is embracing the shampoo. Does Hillary Duff actually use the shampoo? Can I trust it? Why would I buy it if this is not, you know, the actual Hilary Duff? So I think that's a fair point.
- [29:21]
Tim Peterson
Yeah, I feel like it's. It's like so much of the conversations we've had with folks about the use of AI in marketing, where it makes the most sense kind of on the edges of whatever the actual thing is. If it's an ad buy, it makes sense when it comes to the planning and coming up with the brief for the campaign or the, you know, analyzing the reporting after the fact, handling the actual buy, that gets a little trickier in this case. It feels like a digital twin Makes perfect sense. If it's okay, we need to do a location scout and we need to understand how Jose Mourinho would look in this environment or in this costume or whatever. We're not going to waste the time of scheduling actual human Jose Mourinho for that. Let's just get his digital twin to then try on these costumes. Or let's take the script that we have, run it through the digital twin to understand how he would say these things. And. But when it comes to the actual shoot, let's do that with human Jose Mourinho. And then if after the fact, it's like, oh, crap, we didn't get this shot or we flubbed, you know, this line or what have you, we can just do a pickup with digital twin Jose Mourinho and use it to fill in gaps that feels like the safest, cleanest way to go about this.
- [30:49]
Kimiko McCoy
Yeah, I think. I think it's going to be a situation where this hinges on consumer feedback and what they make of it. I can't tell by Instagram comments because they're all bots, but that's a story for another day.
- [31:03]
Tim Peterson
They're all digital twins.
- [31:04]
Kimiko McCoy
Yeah, exactly. But I think it'll hinge on how consumers feel about it. And if they continue to shop with these brands that are using digital twins, that will give the best to me insight as to how consumers actually feel about it and how much they're willing to accept a AI spokesperson or a digital twin as opposed to an authentic, real, living, breathing human.
- [31:27]
Tim Peterson
Yeah. So I guess one good litmus test will be next year's Super Bowl. How many human celebrity spokespeople will there be? How many digital twins of celebrities are there going to be?
- [31:38]
Kimiko McCoy
Exactly. Exactly.
- [31:40]
Tim Peterson
Awesome. Well, Kimiko, really interested in learning about all this. Thanks for walking me through what a digital twin is.
- [31:48]
Kimiko McCoy
And the human version of me, no less. Not my digital twin. You're welcome. Well, that brings us to the end of this episode of the Digiday Podcast. Thank you to everyone for listening. And please don't forget to share this episode with someone who you think would enjoy it. You can even rate us and leave us a comment on Apple Podcasts. We'll be back next week with another episode of the Digiday Podcast. Thank you so much for joining us.