Why retail media is still grappling with definition and spending uncertainties

Summary

Summary of "Why Retail Media is Still Grappling with Definition and Spending Uncertainties" – The Digiday Podcast

Release Date: April 8, 2025
Host/Author: Digiday
Episode Title: Why Retail Media is Still Grappling with Definition and Spending Uncertainties

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Introduction and Context

In this episode of The Digiday Podcast, hosts Kameka McCoy and Tim Peterson delve into the evolving landscape of retail media amidst economic uncertainties. They explore how factors like tariffs, the TikTok ban, and the exponential growth of retail media networks are reshaping strategies for brands, agencies, and publishers in the digital age.

Economic Uncertainty: Tariffs and TikTok Ban

The discussion opens with the impact of recent economic headwinds, including the extension of the TikTok ban and new tariffs imposed on Chinese goods. Kameka comments on the lack of April Fool's jokes from brands, attributing it to the prevailing economic tensions.

Kameka McCoy [00:23]: "Speaking of economic uncertainty, TikTok bans and tariffs, those are actually three of the things that we'll be talking about in today's juicy scoops."

Tim adds insights into the political maneuvering surrounding TikTok, highlighting how attempts to stabilize the platform through potential deals have been derailed by reciprocal tariffs.

Tim Peterson [05:07]: "Wall Street Journal reported that Oracle was leading a group of US investors to acquire TikTok, but tariffs led China to reject the deal, pushing us back into what we’re calling 'TikTok Ellipse.'"

The hosts underscore the broader economic implications, noting that tariffs are affecting a wide range of products and industries, complicating media buying and marketing strategies.

Growth and Definition of Retail Media Networks

Kameka introduces the guest, Amy Owen, Chief Commerce Officer at Canesso, to discuss the burgeoning number of retail media networks, which have surged from around 200 to over 250 in recent years. Amy provides a historical perspective on retail media, tracing its roots back to in-store promotions and evolving into a complex digital ecosystem.

Amy Owen [19:24]: "Retail media is unique because it's entirely tied to the store or merchandise. Everything, whether it's advertising or merchandising, revolves around selling a product either online or in-store."

Amy differentiates between various categories within retail media, including commerce media and aggregators, emphasizing the importance of understanding these distinctions for effective budget allocation.

Joint Business Planning (JBP) and Flexibility in Partnerships

A significant portion of the episode focuses on Joint Business Planning (JBP), a strategic approach akin to upfront deals, where brands and retailers collaborate closely to optimize media spend amidst economic challenges. The conversation highlights the necessity of flexibility in these agreements to navigate uncertainties like rising tariffs and fluctuating consumer behaviors.

Kameka McCoy [33:10]: "If we bring in third-party measurement platforms and there's no standardization in definitions, how do I measure the impact of my ad spend?"

Amy responds by outlining strategies for harmonizing metrics and establishing common standards to evaluate the effectiveness of retail media investments.

Amy Owen [46:21]: "We've created a tool that integrates the retail landscape, allowing us to harmonize media spend with actual sales data, providing a standardized view of effectiveness."

Acquisition of Infosum by WPP

Tim shifts the conversation to recent industry developments, notably WPP's acquisition of Infosum, a data technology provider. This move, along with similar acquisitions by Publicis and Omnicom, signifies a strategic push by major agency holding companies to strengthen their data capabilities and secure long-term client relationships.

Tim Peterson [12:50]: "Having more access to clients' data gives agencies more security and enables smarter ad spend decisions, fostering more sticky, enterprise-level relationships."

Amy explains that Infosum's approach to federating data, as opposed to centralizing it, offers a distinctive advantage in managing client data securely and effectively.

Amy Owen [13:00]: "Infosum's federated data model allows clients to maintain control over their data, which differentiates it from other data-centric acquisitions."

Standardization and Measurement Challenges

The lack of standardization in measuring retail media effectiveness poses significant challenges for marketers. Amy emphasizes the need for a common dictionary and standardized metrics to assess return on ad spend (ROAS) accurately.

Amy Owen [25:08]: "Retailers each have their own definitions and methodologies for metrics like incremental ROAS, making it difficult to compare performance across different networks."

Kameka highlights the frustration among marketers trying to justify increased spending without clear, standardized measurement frameworks.

Kameka McCoy [43:23]: "If we bring in third-party measurement platforms and there's no standardization in definitions, how do I measure the impact of my ad spend?"

Amy suggests that agencies can develop their own harmonized metrics or work directly with retailers to understand their specific methodologies, thereby creating a more unified approach to measurement.

Strategic Partnerships and Future Outlook

The episode concludes with a focus on the importance of strategic partnerships over transactional relationships in the retail media space. Amy advocates for holistic approaches that consider not just media spend but also merchandising, content, and technology to drive comprehensive growth.

Amy Owen [39:24]: "We want to look at total commerce, not just media. This means integrating content, merchandising, and technology to ensure all aspects work together to drive sales."

The hosts and guest agree that continuous adaptation and strategic collaboration are essential for navigating the dynamic and often inconsistent landscape of retail media.

Conclusion

The Digiday Podcast wraps up by reinforcing the ongoing challenges and opportunities within retail media. As brands and agencies grapple with economic uncertainties, regulatory changes, and a rapidly expanding array of retail media networks, the need for clear definitions, standardized measurements, and flexible, strategic partnerships remains paramount.

Kameka McCoy [48:25]: "Constant change is the only consistency in this industry."

Amy echoes this sentiment, emphasizing the enduring evolution of retail media and the necessity for stakeholders to remain agile and collaborative.

Amy Owen [48:32]: "Retail media has been around for decades and continues to evolve. We're always adapting to stay effective."

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This episode provides a comprehensive exploration of the current state of retail media, highlighting the complexities and strategic necessities for navigating an increasingly digital and economically volatile environment.

Transcript

[Tim Peterson]

Foreign.

[Amy Owen]

Hello.

[Kameka McCoy]

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Digita Podcast, a show about the business of media and marketing. I'm Kameka McCoy, senior marketing reporter here at Digiday.

[Tim Peterson]

And I'm Tim Peterson, executive editor of video and audio Digiday Media.

[Kameka McCoy]

Tim, welcome back. I want to say something interesting to first start off, which leads us to our juicy scoops for this week. Because all of it is tied together. I actually did not see a lot of April fool strokes from brands and I wonder how much of that is because of the tariffs, the TikTok ban and economic uncertainty. No one's in the mood for a prank.

[Tim Peterson]

I mean, I've never been in the mood for the April Fool's stuff, but yeah, it feels like, especially these days where any April Fool's joke seems way more conceivable than in the past, where it's just like, how do we know this is actually an April Fool's joke? Exactly. Yeah, I got some in my inbox. Some April Fool's like pitches, same and immediately blocked contact.

[Kameka McCoy]

There was one of them that they sent the pitch and then maybe like 45 minutes later they were like, you know what? Actually on second thought, we will not be moving forward with this activation. I said, yeah, good. I don't need to eat chicken flavored toothpaste right now. Please, now is not the time.

[Tim Peterson]

It's too early for chicken flavored toothpaste. I mean, a gag.

[Kameka McCoy]

Well, speaking of economic uncertainty, TikTok bans and tariffs, those are actually three of the things that we'll be talking about in today's juicy scoops, in addition to some holding company news.

[Tim Peterson]

Yeah, and speaking of holding companies, you have the guest this week. Who'd you speak to?

[Kameka McCoy]

Oh, yeah, I talked to Amy Owen, a chief commerce officer at Canesso. We've talked several times about retail media before. This time we did like a high level overview looking at the state of retail media networks. I think last time I had a conversation about the state of retail media networks, that was with Walmart Rich Larfield. And at that time there was like maybe 200 retail media networks. Now there's over 250. So I felt maybe it's time for a check in. Right. So we talked a little bit about how economic headwinds are expected to impact the negotiation process and the, the JBP deals, which is like their version of like upfronts, essentially locking in those deals, how economic headwinds are expected to impact those things, why there's so much executive dysfunction when it comes to media buying. In this space and kind of, you know what this all means for her role in her clients. So it was an interesting conversation.

[Tim Peterson]

And you got a new acronym for me in there, jbp, which. What's that one?

[Kameka McCoy]

Oh, Joint Business Planning. Joint Business Planning. I thought you were going to ask about Home Depot's return on marketing objective. I got a lot of acronyms for you when it comes to retail media.

[Tim Peterson]

No, my antenna always up anytime there's a new acronym, especially if like. Is this acronym necessary? Like that term joint business play. Feels like there could have been a way simpler way to term that, like.

[Kameka McCoy]

Negotiations, because that's essentially what it is.

[Tim Peterson]

Upfront deals. Like deal.

[Kameka McCoy]

Why use a phrase we're already familiar with when we can have a new one?

[Tim Peterson]

Yeah, well, maybe fodder for our WTF series, but indeed, yeah. So speaking of uncertainty, which I think is going to be the theme of a lot of this episode, we weren't necessarily expecting there to be some certainty with regard to TikTok's future coming out of this weekend, but there was hope. There's always hope. Even if hope feels like a far distant from reality. We didn't get it. Instead, we got another extension of this deadline. Now it's June 21st is the new deadline, which is interesting timing because VidCon, which is like the annual comic con for the digital video industry, TikTok had sponsored VidCon a few years back. That is happening June 19th and 20th, if I'm not mistaken. Can is going on that same week, if I'm not mistaken. So interesting. 75 days, you know, being the deadline and that being the end of it. And I guess we'll just do all this all over again in a couple months.

[Kameka McCoy]

Yeah, long story short, TikTok purgatory continues. What did we call it last time? TikTok Ellipse. TikTok pocalypse.

[Tim Peterson]

TikTok Ellipse.

[Kameka McCoy]

TikTok Ellipse continues. So T Day is now June 21st, as you mentioned. And no to your point, nobody should be surprised by this. I know back in January there was talks about like Microsoft and a handful of other companies most recently reported that like Oracle was in talks to buy it. But long story short, we are now in a tariff tit for tat, if you will, with China, which now because of those tariffs, the breaks have been hit. And until that is resolved, which who's to say, we will remain in TikTok purgatory.

[Tim Peterson]

Yeah, yeah. Because, you know, last Tuesday, Wall Street Journal reports. Oh, looks like there's, you Know, a deal in place, it's going to be finalized on Wednesday. You know, Wall Street Journal reported that Oracle was the one kind of leading the group of US Investors that would come out. And with the majority ownership of TikTok Wednesday comes and goes, that doesn't come to pass. Reuters ends up coming out with a story, I believe on Friday, right around the time that Trump announced the extension of the TikTok ban, Reuters comes out saying, yeah, there was a deal, it was, you know, getting finalized. But then because of the tariffs that were announced on last Wednesday, China decided, nah, we're not going to agree to that. Whereas it seemed like it was also reported that Trump was hoping that the tariffs would be kind of the stick to push China to agree to a deal for TikTok that completely backfired. And then, you know, just this morning as we're talking, Trump announced new tariffs on China. So to the point where I think, like, there was a story that I saw where the total amount of tariffs on Chinese goods will be 104%. So you'll be paying a little more than double for anything imported from China because of all of these tariffs adding up.

[Kameka McCoy]

And we thought we were suffering.

[Tim Peterson]

You won't be paying for TikTok.

[Kameka McCoy]

No, we thought we were suffering from high prices with salmon and eggs. And the tariff said, hold my beer, I got something worse.

[Tim Peterson]

Yeah, it's. Yeah, everything. So, yeah. And so, I mean, with TikTok, it feels like there's not that much more to say at this point. It seems like we're all in very much a holding pattern. We will have an episode coming out next week in which you and I are going to explore the what now? Question for TikTok a bit more. So we can, I guess, save some of that conversation.

[Kameka McCoy]

Yeah.

[Tim Peterson]

For next week and instead of focus on, like, what really overshadowed the TikTok news this past week, which was tariffs.

[Kameka McCoy]

Which was tariffs. Yeah, I know. What did Trump call it on? It was our last Liberation Day. Liberation Day, yes. And that is sure to send. It's already sent ripple effects. You know, the first bout of terrorists, which were, you know, auto and CP drains, CPG brands, excuse me, that were the most likely to be affected from that first bout, which have now been affected. I know Jaguar, another brand, have stopped shipping over here at this point because of said tariffs. But. But fashion retailers like Shein and Timu will also be impacted by this. I do not envy any media buyer right now, any marketer right now.

[Tim Peterson]

No, I mean, one thing that's going to be Interesting. So, yeah, as part of Liberation Day and all the latest rounds of tariffs that just seem to be ongoing, the de minimis loophole, which is what she and Timu have been able to exploit to import goods for, I believe $800 is the threshold to like stay under any tariffs that's getting closed up on May 2nd. So I mean, everyone can do their fast fashion shopping for a few more weeks. But what's going to be interesting with that is what kind of pullback that leads to in spending from Shein and Teemu, because they've been big spenders on Metis properties for one thing.

[Kameka McCoy]

Exactly.

[Tim Peterson]

And so does that free up inventory for advertisers? Like, there's this interesting tension with the tariffs and the economic headwinds in general, where a lot of the conventional wisdom is, oh, advertisers are going to be pulling back some budget, which makes a lot of sense. There's a lot of economic uncertainty. You want to kind of hold on to your money in those times. But if there is a pullback, and especially with, you know, the size of the budgets that she and Timu have been spending, does that lead prices to drop so much that actually it's kind of in some brands best interest to be spending because inventory is going to be cheap? It's kind of that idea similar like with stocks. Like, yeah, okay, if you're holding stocks, it's a terrible time right now, but it's a great time to be buying stocks.

[Kameka McCoy]

Correct? Not for me, but for others, absolutely. But I, I think this has been a question that's kind of been in the works for a while because our marketing editor Christina Monmlose reported on this way back in September when it was first kind of proposed this concept of like, should we strike walletot if those CPMs go down, if it goes down with Shein and Teemu, what does that then mean for how much I'm able to spend? But also I think that's interesting right now is like there's a, a back and forth when it comes to like performance versus branding and like how much of that is going to be relevant when ad dollars start to be, you know, at risk, if you will.

[Tim Peterson]

Right. Which is always kind of the tension. I mean, it feels like we've been going through this cycle too much in recent history. I would like cycles to be more like 20 year cycles as opposed to what feels like two year cycles. But okay. During economic downturns, should advertisers still be investing in brand building just to like make sure their brands are still out there that people are still thinking of them to the extent people are still spending. And in the event that people start spending again, or should they just focus on that lower funnel performance and just getting the people who have a propensity to buy to buy, because then the brand's going to get more revenue off of that investment. And it seems, it never seems like there's an easy formula to this. And I imagine we talk to buyers, they're all going to say, well, it depends on the client, blah, blah, blah, all their conditions. But it is interesting timing because we have the upfronts coming up in a little over a month where all the major TV networks and streaming services are going to be pitching for these annual commitments from advertisers. I'm already hearing from some buyers as well as sellers that there is concern about like how soft the market would be at this point. It seems like they still all expect like advertisers to commit a bit more money this year than they had last year. But everything could change within the next month and a half, let alone next two months as deals like really get going. Especially like the question of, okay, how much appetite there's going to be for live sports and how that drives up pricing, but how much appetite is there going to be on the behalf of advertisers for really high CPMs if there is so much demand for just a tranche of the inventory that'll be on offer?

[Kameka McCoy]

Yeah, I love how we're gonna end that bit as we always end, which is. We'll see.

[Tim Peterson]

Yeah, as, as usual. But it's, yeah, it's gonna be interesting because also just what impact this has on agency businesses at a time when agencies are pretty active businesses. And so another news story we had this past week is WPP announced it's acquiring Infosum, which is the data tech provider that the global CEO of Group M, Brian Lesser, had been CEO of before coming back to Group M in the past year. And this follows Publicist Group acquiring Lotamy. And then of course Omnicom and IPG announcing their Omnicom announcing its acquisition of IPG back in December. And so we're seeing the big three agency holding companies really look to bolster their respective data businesses.

[Kameka McCoy]

Interesting. I'm curious, what, what do you think this kind of means for the industry? Like why is it that all these agencies want to kind of harness all this data now?

[Tim Peterson]

I think it's because like having more of a line into clients data will give more security to the agencies. Because it's one thing to Manage creative for clients. But that kind of just keeps the relationship on a campaign to campaign basis. It's another thing to manage a client's media spend their media budget. But that still kind of keeps you at like an annual budget level in terms of stickiness managing the data or providing the technology to manage their data. That seems to be a lot stickier business. It's more of an enterprise level relationship. And you know, enterprise level relationships are notorious for being very sticky. You know you get on Microsoft or Google Workspace or IBM and you're kind of like in that for the long haul. This part of this seems to be like getting involved in clients data gets you in that business with that client for the long haul. In addition to just the benefits of you want to have that data to be able to be smarter with how ad dollars are being spent, to be smarter about what the return on those investments are. One thing that's interesting about the WPP Infosum one is Infosum approaches things a bit differently than the other data businesses. It's more about federating the data. It's about data clean rooms and really having letting the clients maintain their data as opposed to centralizing it, which has been what axiom, which is part of IPG and then Lotamy which is being acquired by Publicis, what those have done. So we are seeing a bit of a different philosophical approach here with WPP Infosome.

[Kameka McCoy]

The last thing that I wanted to ask about that is like what is the relationship of this movement on behalf of holding companies and agencies in relation to the fallout or not fallout depending on who you ask from Google's third party cookies. Right. And kind of like the third party tech companies that have been built around data. What does this mean for those things?

[Tim Peterson]

Yeah, Google still has to decide if it's going to go through with killing off the third party cookie or not. So a lot of that remains to be seen. But I think kind of regardless of the third party cookie, first party data is still very important because it's the strongest signal available. It's a direct signal as opposed to something that's more of a predicted type signal or probabilistic type signal. And then really I think it's even more important from a measurement and attribution standpoint. You want to know if I showed someone an ad, did they end up purchasing a product? The best way to know that is to have that first party data on who that person is and what they ended up doing across all of the different places they may have been exposed to an ad. Or may have transacted and that's where the first party data comes in.

[Kameka McCoy]

Got it. So this is a matter of job security on behalf of the holding companies and agencies in a time of economic uncertainty is what I'm getting from the bulk of this conversation.

[Tim Peterson]

That's a lot of it like job security and also just like a focus on performance and ROI which also ties into the economics uncertainty.

[Kameka McCoy]

Love that, love that. Well, those are our juicy scoops.

[Tim Peterson]

Yeah, it seems like tees up our conversation for this week's episode pretty nicely. So before we get to that, Kimiko, remind me who do you you speak to for this episode?

[Kameka McCoy]

Yeah, we've got on the pod this week, Amy Owen, who again chief commerce officer at canneso. The main theme of we talked about is like a check in of like the state of retail media networks which again there are more hundred, more than 250 of them at this point. But a lot of the conversation kind of focused on like the media buying aspect of this and what, what the negotiations mean with economic headwinds and are agencies willing to commit, spend on behalf of clients and things like this kind of going forward when you know things are quite literally on fire in terms of the economy. So it was a really good conversation. So hope you guys enjoy.

[Tim Peterson]

Yeah, it sounds really timely. I'm looking forward to hearing it.

[Kameka McCoy]

Thanks so much.

[Tim Peterson]

Thanks Mika.

[Kameka McCoy]

Hello. Hello and welcome to the Digiday podcast. Amy, how are you?

[Amy Owen]

I'm good. Thank you so much for having me. I'm super excited to talk to you.

[Kameka McCoy]

About my favorite topic today about retail media networks. I know last time I reported there was like 250. Last year there was 200. I don't even want to know what that number is going to look like by the end of year.

[Amy Owen]

I've lost count. I, I stopped counting. And it's kind of funny because there's conversations that are happening that there is going to be potentially even more. So I'll follow your account, I'll read your articles.

[Kameka McCoy]

I think that's, I think that's a good idea. We can both be in this together. I like to start all of my conversations with a fun question. So here's my fun question to you. If your life was made into a movie, who would you want to play you?

[Amy Owen]

Oh wow. Jennifer Lawrence.

[Kameka McCoy]

I think you answered that quick. I love that. Okay. Why Jennifer?

[Amy Owen]

Do you know why? Because I. So I'm all about like the unfiltered response and that was the first actor that popped in my head or actress. And so the Reason being is because she knows what she does, she's good at what she does, but she's funny and quirky, and I feel like sometimes I trip up the stairs. And so that was the image that popped in my face when you asked me that question. So, yeah, I think it's. It's what you see is what you get. And that's kind of how I am. And I speak manner of factly, and she does too. And so that's kind of how I relate to her in a way.

[Kameka McCoy]

I love that. I love that. And we'll be speaking matter of factly about retail media, no less. So that's perfect. One of the things that I think is so interesting right now, going back to the idea of, like, there being more than 250 retail media networks. Right. The space is booming, obviously, but it's full of, like, retail media networks at the same time, ad platforms and at the same time data brokers that are just kind of cosplaying as retail media networks. Right. So kind of talk to me about how do we determine what is a true retail media network? How do we explain that to clients so they can best divvy up their dollars?

[Amy Owen]

Right, Yeah. I mean, I'll give you a little bit of a history. And so retail media has been around for decades. And so I've been in the space for about 20 years, but it started about 1972. And so there was one retail media network that that had come out and it was all about in store. And it was, you know, like the coupons and the floor graphics and things like that that you could actually do in store and drive people to your overall product. And so that has evolved with digital technology, the access to data. And so it really has put a number on how we look at any sort of what we're calling retail media. And so the way that we actually look at it and define it is, is retail media really is unique in the sense of that it's everything tied to the store or tied to merch. So you are selling a product, and you're what we call an endemic partner of that retailer. And so everything that you do, whether it's advertising or having conversations about merchandising or stock or shelving, has to do with selling a product either online or in store. And so that is the unique piece of retail media. Then there's another, I guess, category that I've really deemed is commerce media. And so commerce media taps into data and technology, but it doesn't necessarily have that unique piece where you're tying everything to the retailer. So for example, like United and Delta and Chase and so they have access to the data and they're great networks but they're not beholden to a retailer. And then there's kind of like a third like category if you will, and that's more of like the aggregators. And so that to me is like the trade desk of the world or like a critio or even like an instacart. Right. So you're looking into aggregation of retailers. And then the fourth to your point is like the technology partners, like they're the ones that are building the infrastructure. And so I actually need to from my standpoint, need to categorize things in order to explain them to people. And so that's kind of how we look at it. And it's grown over time. So it's always started with the retail media and then it has become a commerce media and now it's become, is it just media aspect of you know, like the 250 and so if you were to give me 250 and we play like kind of a little a game, I could probably tell you which ones would fall into which bucket just based on my perspective. But the industry is looking at that too because at the end of the day where you're putting your dollar, especially with the retail media, it matters because you're having that relationship with that retailer versus a commerce media network or a media network and, or like a technology partner.

[Kameka McCoy]

Right. And I would also imagine that it impacts like, you know, what are the marketing goals around this by you know, having a retail media network versus a commerce media network and whatnot determines like what bucket it comes out and what expectations I put around that.

[Amy Owen]

Right. It's different. Yeah, it's, it, it varies. And so we look at media metrics and we also look at, I'll call return on retail relationship. So we look at how we're actually working with the retailer and at the end of the day we always want to be strategic with our partners. We don't want to be transactional. And so there is, there's a lot that we look at that it's not just media driven that unlocks the partnership and how we're investing across all of the different platforms.

[Kameka McCoy]

I think that's interesting. I also going back to the idea of like the, the buckets and whatnot. Right. So many of these retail media networks and even commerce media networks and the aggregators to an extent all of them are positioning themselves to, to be a bigger player in Media, Right. Partnering with off site channels and third party platforms to like reach parts of the digital ecosystem that they themselves may not be able to mean. What does that then mean for how retail media networks are funded? Right. Are this media players or is it marketing or is it sales or, you know, how does that come into play?

[Amy Owen]

Yeah, it's, it's super interesting that you asked that because I've heard the phrase of if retail media partners want to be media, then they should act like media. But that's coming from the perspective of just looking at media. Right. And so you would think that the default is working with media partners at the client. So like either it's a media arm or a budget owner of a brand or even like when it comes to like shopper marketing who owns the budget of just focusing on media. But the reality is, and I'll be a little provocative here, but the reality is that it is truly a form of trade if you think about it, because in the past, like we would have circulars and we would have direct mailers, go to your house and things of that nature. And it's just more of a digital component of that. So it depends on who's looking at it, who's having the conversation. But yeah, you're right, it's all over the place when it comes to budgets because there are, you know, like the sales teams at our clients that are having the relationship with the retailer and the retailer wants us to do good work with them and to actually increase our sales year over year. What does that look like? Right. And then you have the shopper marketing folks too, where from their standpoint they want to appease from the media side, but then also the merchandising side. And then the brand teams are going, what's the roas, what's the incremental return? And how does that actually work on our side too? So like it's a little bit of how the clients are set up and how they actually approach it and what's their mantra when it comes to retail media. And I will tell you, it's different depending on the category and depending on how long the client has been playing in the space.

[Kameka McCoy]

I am curious, and forgive me if this is a rudimentary question in sorting through these 250 retail media networks and their cousins. But curious like, does that look different for a commerce media network or a travel media network or just an ad platform backed by, you know, a company's data?

[Amy Owen]

Yeah, I mean it's interesting. So I'll just answer your question and I'll forgive you because it is a simple question. It's very complex too.

[Kameka McCoy]

Thank you.

[Amy Owen]

But it's dependent on how that exact client looks at the network and where they play. So for example, like if we actually have a travel company that is a client that is going to be their bread and butter when they're working with United. I'll bring up United again. United or Delta and. Right. So they actually look at that network a lot more as a partner and a strategic player versus say like a grocery shopping network or whatever it may be. And then the other piece of it too is because they don't have necessarily the tie to retail. I feel like a lot of brands just assume like, hey, it's another network that I could tap into that has unique data that could reach my audience in a different place. So for example, like if it's someone who might not actually be functioning in the travel space, I'll call it they are actually working with these partners to reach people that are on planes that you might not have been able to do in the past. So it's, it's places and spaces, but it's also based on the category itself.

[Kameka McCoy]

At the same time, all of them are like, as we talked about, like with the off site and pushing into like I guess make themselves more full funnel, not to use marketing terms here, but full funnel marketing channels. Right. Where they can tackle lower funnel performance, direct response, sales conversions, clicks, but at the same time brand awareness and consideration. Right. Again, what does that mean for budgets? Last I reported there was consideration for those things. Like yes, I know retail media networks are capable of them, but am I ready to divvy up those brand marketing dollars to these retail media networks? I'm not sure. What does that look like for you guys?

[Amy Owen]

Yeah, we're trying to actually change that narrative. So I remember like, oh God, I don't know the year, so don't quote me, but I remember like Google came out with the phrase zmont0 moment of truth. And I want to say it was like 2012 that I had it in a presentation and when I actually started here over 12 years ago, it was all about where is our consumer and where is our audience. And it doesn't necessarily matter where they are in the funnel, but where they are in their purchase journey. And so that's a little bit different. So when we do pitch clients and or talk to our clients, we are talking about the audience and what their media behaviors are and we always start with the data and what the data tells and then we trigger that tactic where they are in their specific journey. So we are utilizing, for example, if someone was going to the grocery store, are they passing a billboard, Are they listening to the radio, are they surfing the web on their phone, are they, you know, stopping for gas? Like, so what are they actually doing? And then they're in the parking lot, are they in the store? That's actually triggering the tactic that we use. And then based on their behavior and their interaction, so they're spending a lot of time on their phone and on the app. So we wanna make sure that we're actually messaging them when they are actually in that shopping mindset. So it's not necessarily, at least from our perspective, it's not necessarily the funnel, but it's more of the journey. And so when we talk to our clients, they actually look at it a little bit differently. And we've actually had some clients be able to look at where their P and L sit and then actually combine their P and L and. Or have one person overseeing different budgets. And what. What I mean by that is that it's very hard to work with a client that has six different budget owners that have six different perspectives, six different tasks and goals from a client perspective to align and be on the same page. But if you go from a journey perspective, then you're untriggering the journey aspect of the audience and then you're aligning the media to that. And so it unlocks the idea of, oh, it's just the journey. I probably should shift all of my dollars into this P and L for the audience. And then you're triggering that tactic and. Or like that media consumption along that journey. So it's a little bit different, but it all starts with data throughout, like their. Their specific journey. And then our clients are starting to talk the talk too, which is really nice to see because it's not necessarily just running TV because it's an awareness play or being on a mobile app because someone is on the go. It truly is. My audience is sitting there and consuming five hours of football on Black Friday. I should actually put a shoppable component within my CTV space because I want to drive a sale because that's where they are and that's where they're consuming the most.

[Kameka McCoy]

Two questions there. One, six teams, six budgets, a lot of work. Talk to me a little bit about how do we streamline that? Who is the onus on to streamline that product process? That seems like a lot.

[Amy Owen]

It's a little bit of both. So we have a lot of clients where commerce is usually the glue that ties everything together or drives the integration between, I'll call it brand and retail, or national and shopper, or, you know, they all have different terms, but it's also the client. So we, we have a conversation with them and like really want to be strategic with them as well. And so I'm all, I mentioned this earlier, but I'm all about strategic relationships and I don't want to be transactional with a client either. And so we actually make recommendations or work with, if they're working with like a third party consultant or something along those lines to figure out the best way to actually approach media. And it's changed. Right. And I know a lot of clients are looking at how they are actually set up. Do you need six different teams, for example? I'll keep riding that wave. Or do you need three? Or do you need one team that has six different functions? And so there's a lot of conversation around how to actually simplify in the space. And so sometimes we just make it a little bit more complicated for ourselves when we don't need to.

[Kameka McCoy]

Yeah.

[Amy Owen]

And it's all about understanding all the different tactics and how the evolution was, was actually, you know, building itself. And you always needed an expert for the next best thing. It's like, what if you have an expert that knows a little bit of everything, then that changes the game.

[Kameka McCoy]

Fair, Fair, fair. I would also imagine, like how quickly the space is growing with all of these, you know, different moving tentacles all at the same time would also create, like, it'd be hard to create some standardization, which is another topic that I think is, you know, hot in the retail media network space right now is the lack of standardization.

[Amy Owen]

I mean, yes, we could go in so many different places with standardization, but I think the one that I talk about the most is looking at retailers in a silo only helps to understand how well those retailer tactics are performing with our audience. It's hard to look at a retailer side by side without having a proper definition or like a dictionary to, to understand what those retailers were saying. So I got a report yesterday from a given retailer that said, hey, this program did really well and we measured it and here you go and we saw incremental roas and you should invest more. Well, the retailer created their own homework. They called it incremental return, which like, they didn't tell us like what the methodology was and they called it roas and incremental. And the industry as a whole has five or six definitions of what that actually means. So it's interesting and it opens up conversation to have with this retailer and say, as I'm looking at it for one particular client, this is how they look at your metrics. And it doesn't mean that it didn't not perform. It's just one of those things where it's, you got to take a step and it almost adds different pieces and process to the overall like did it work or did it not work equation. And so that's what we're dealing with essentially. And so it's, it's more of like if we had a dictionary. And I know that there are third party companies that have created it, but like we gotta put our money where our mouth is. Like we're talking about it a lot, but we're not necessarily doing it. And so like even like within our walls, we've created tools and technology that we could actually look at it and find a common denominator. But that's how we look at it. Right. And so we look at it from a third party and we're subjective because we're not gradering our own homework. But I'm sure there's another agency that might look at it a different way. So there's not like one actual standard way to look at everything across. So there's a lot of analytical conversations, a lot of methodology conversations. And is this approved, Is this not approved? And so it kind of goes down that hallway of, you know, this is like really complicated or is it complicated or just maybe making it complicated.

[Kameka McCoy]

Million dollar question there. One of the conversations that I've been having with marketers, media buyers and experts in this space is like there's a push to spend more and more, to your point, more and more on these retail medium networks every year. Right. To make commitments to the JBP process, joint business planning upfront and whatnot. But it's hard sometimes to justify when there is no clear definition of what that incrementality or that return on spend looks like. Right. The elephant in the room right now is that there is talk of recession, there's tariffs and whatnot. So if these companies, these retailers are asking for more and more money up front, you know, how are you guys navigating that space with the economic background?

[Amy Owen]

Yeah, I mean, we're always entertaining it, we're always looking at it, we're always talking to the client. To your point, it's hard to drive you incremental investment year over year when the bar is already so high. So being strategic and understanding what they're delivering for us as a client versus Maybe for them as a retailer to benefit all parties is definitely a topic of conversation. I think the other piece that has come up has come up in the past, probably around like Covid years. And I can't believe I'm saying that like five years ago, but that was five years ago is flexibility. And so how do we actually commit to you, Mr. Retailer? Because we really want to invest in, in your media, we believe in it, we want to be strategic with you, but you need to give us a little bit of flexibility. If for some reason we're not seeing the sales that we need to because pricing is a little bit of a nightmare. To your point, like recession is potentially coming. Eggs are now going to be like $100, like a carton. And so it's one of those things where I think you have to be real. And we kicked off this conversation saying we're going to get to the real deal and talk unfiltered. There needs to be that conversation with the retailer. It can't be like all like bells and whistles and shiny rose colored glasses because the reality is that it's not going to be that way. And you need a partner that goes along with you for the ride. Not that just says it's my way or the highway. And I will say that we are seeing that flexibility from the retailers because they get it and they also get the conversation of like how high is too high? Because like how, how are we going to continue to invest in you? What else are you giving us in return? And so the conversations that we're having now for next year and that we've just kind of finalized for 20, 25 calendar year, have been a lot more open with that because again like, and I've been here for 12 years, but I feel like every agency should take that onus of really understanding all of the economic pressures and all of the different, you know, things that are going on in the world and not just one retailer is asking for media dollars and you should just commit to them.

[Kameka McCoy]

Yeah. What does flexibility in A J. Well, actually let me back up because we actually had to do an explainer on the JVPs because it's not. They're different for every industry. They're different for every, every, you know, brand and retailer. So what role do JBP's joint business planning, which I liken to like upfront in front, new fronts. Every other front negotiation process that happened.

[Amy Owen]

See there's the complication right there. Like there's like 15 different ways to actually call it one thing. And it's. I mean, if we wanted to make it more simple for, you know, like, the people that are listening to this, it's really like three or four different, again, categories. The first category is, is a true joint business partnership. So if you're actually committing, what are you getting in return? And you document that. So it's really like a. It's not just a handshake, it's a document that each side is getting something to go into the partnership with. It's strategic and you're both winning from that. Then there's something, another category, which I call, like, a letter of intent. And so there are a lot of retail media partners out there and even commerce media partners that want you to commit, but there's no penalty and not committing to working with them. And so there's a little bit of a difference. And sometimes our clients may feel that they're not necessarily getting something or the retailer. Retailer will be like, hey, I don't think I'm getting as much as you're getting from that regard. So it gets a little bit less. And then I'll call it like the retailer relationship, where, like, we're just testing, we're doing discovery work, we're trying to figure out what's going on with the retailer. So some of the newer players out there or the commerce media networks, and there may be a piece of paper, but it's also potentially an email or a handshake saying, like, hey, we're going to test this and then see, like, how that's. How that's panning out. And then it's like the newbies that are just, like, coming out of the woodwork and, like, we just want to have conversations with them. So it goes from something that's, like, very strategic that you're getting both to a little bit less to a little bit less to a, like, let's just discover it. And we've done that with a lot of our clients because in the past, retailers had a lot of the power to really go forth and say, this is how much I want, like, take it or leave it. And now we're approaching them and we're not saying no, but we're saying, well, if we're going to go by those rules, like, what are we getting in return? So then we all win because at the end of the day, the retailer wants to grow their category. They don't want to just grow a specific brand. So if we're helping grow the category or leaning into a different event or a test or a tent pole, that Actually grows, you know, tenfold versus just one brand that's growing and all ships rise. So that's kind of the approach that we're taking by looking at all of these different types of agreements to understand what are the levers that we can pull to just better the conversation that we're having and be again, be more strategic. And I feel like I keep saying that, but it's all about being strategic and thinking and being a partner versus the transaction. Because if you have a transaction even with a client, like it's never going to work, it's not long term. And you really need to have trust in both sides or all sides of what the retailer is doing with the. What the client really wants to really make sure that you are having the right conversations in the right room with the right people. People.

[Kameka McCoy]

That kind of takes us full circle when you talk about kind of like the wanting to create a situation where everybody wins, right. And strategic partnership and whatnot. Because again, the economic backdrop means more flexibility. So what does more flexibility look like in a jbp? Whether that be cancellation policy, you know, add, you know, I don't know. I know there's like tiers and things like that that you can access depending on spend. But what does that flexibility look like?

[Amy Owen]

Ideally, I could talk about it from like a generic perspective, but it's more to your point. It's the flexibility to get out of committing dollars for media, but it also opens the door to look at non media aspects of commerce. So looking at content and how content is repurposed on a site, looking at shelving and like where actually are you placed on the shelf? Looking at technology and making things shoppable from a brand perspective and also retail readiness. So how are you showing up within the category? So we've done a lot of conversation around like if we don't put necessarily our dollars into the media, can we put our dollars into something else? Can you help us actually shape up how we're showing up on your site or what other placements can we help you create with a roadmap? So again, it's thinking a little bit of outside the box, but it's really just not media specifically. And then to your point, also it's the flexibility of if you don't have the dollars right now, potentially do you have access to spend them later on down the road? I know that we've extended contracts in the past, but we're more about trying to approach commerce from a holistic standpoint. And so I'm sure you've heard Me say this before, but total commerce. And so it's not just media that helps you win, it's all the aspects. And so what I had mentioned with the content creative and all of those pieces. And so we have that conversation with them and we try to actually tell them that up front as we're negotiating because again, we don't want to just say, here's a blank check and thank you for the media. It worked. Have a good day. Like we want to actually look at everything in its entirety and really make sure that we're all winning together.

[Kameka McCoy]

I do want to double click into that. Look at me using corporate terms. But before, before I do, the last thing that I want to ask about the flexibility, especially with like, you know, economic headwinds and whatnot. Is there a standard that's already baked in to these JBPs, right, where it's like, you know, it comes with a 30 day cancellation policy or whatever the case may be and then we're asking for more on top of that or are we kind of like newly navigating what flexibility looks like?

[Amy Owen]

It used to be in the past where it was like very standard and it was standardized. And I, I hate to say this to you because I'm going to be like, so like PC right now. Be like, it depends. Because it does. Because it does depend. It depends on the category, it depends on the retailer. But the reality is that when we approach a JVP conversation, we want to start from scratch. We don't want to look at a paper and edit it and say, okay, how can we change this contract to make it work for both parties? It's more so like let's have a working session, understand what both parties want to get and then we'll have someone draft that. I mean, you could even use AI to draft what you're saying in the room and they build something together and then you have legal, legal look at it and you make it into an actual contract. So that's what we're doing more so now. And that's where the flexibility comes versus like when they first started, I remember seeing like the same presentation over and over again for all of our clients. And then it was like the same standard contract. And I'm talking like pre Covid. So like that, that was something where retail media networks were just kind of finding their footing. Because I always say like right now they're in middle school, they're trying to figure out their way. But like they were, I mean like kindergartners at that point or like in their infancy, like really, really trying to figure out their way. So not only do they now have a swim lane, but they're just trying to figure out what's their unique proposition. And then also like how they could actually help different clients whether or not they're in the specific categories.

[Kameka McCoy]

Circling back around to the idea of measurement and how there's no standardization, which makes it hard to justify the increased year over year spend. Right when I'm not clear on how all these partners are shaping up and impacting my dollars. And they're all pushing off at the off site and asking for brand marketing dollars. So the big question in the room is like if we bring in third party measurement, I mean three third party platforms, excuse me, and there's no standardization in what these definitions mean. How the hell do I measure the impact of my ad spend?

[Amy Owen]

Yeah, it's the million dollar question, or one of them because we've had multiple on this call already. But I would say there's a couple of avenues you could take. So one is a client actually sits down with all the retailers and they understand like how they're going to approach it and what their methodology is. If they don't have a methodology, the second avenue is that we actually have one. We've created one as an agency and we use different metrics to trigger different things. So for example, if they're looking at mmm and every single year we're looking at your retail tiers and we really want to understand how you're actually supporting your given retailers. We do an exercise to show you here's all the, here's all the retailers that you should support with your dollars. So that's kind of the metrics we would use. And then we double click into your incremental roas to understand within each ecosystem what actually drove the return. So for example, if you're looking at like Kroger, you're understanding maybe search is driving a little bit more than on site display. So then you could actually make that shift. But you're using their metrics and then the third piece of it is really looking at that altogether. And so we actually created a tool that could look at everything side by side. And so it's really integration of the retail landscape and so there's a common denominator. So we're able to grab retail media attributed dollars and then also take sales from an API perspective and match that back and I'll call it harmonizing because I'm not the smartest when it comes to all the analytics back and forth and what they actually do, but they'll harmonize the media and create that standard on behalf of a lot of our clients. And our clients actually sit and they actually see all of that process. So they are okay with it. It's approved. And so there's different ways that we can go about doing it. But isn't it crazy that there's three or four different ways that we should do it and there should just be one way and everyone should follow the same thing? Because that to me should be simple, like, did it work or did it not work? And we actually can't even answer that. I saw a meme this morning, actually. It was like super funny. It was like Victoria Beckham with David Beckham. And it's like, hey, I ran retail media. And he's like, cool. And then she's like, it worked. And she goes, well, did they say increments of roas? And she's like, yeah. And he goes, well, does it really work? And she's like, I have no idea. And it's like, that's kind of like how sometimes we feel. But like, if you're looking at it in its own ecosystem or looking at it across or trying, trying to build some sort of formulaic standardization you can look at just takes a lot of effort and a lot of work and a lot of behind the scenes to set that up. And honestly, some clients don't necessarily realize that we're doing that sometimes on their behalf to make sure that their media dollars are going further.

[Kameka McCoy]

Yeah. Especially in a time when, I mean, I feel like we've been saying this for a while now, but marketing and media dollars have to work harder than they have in the past. Yep. I do want to expand on that. I know I said last question, but I have a nasty habit of lying and asking. One last question after my question.

[Amy Owen]

I'll take them.

[Kameka McCoy]

Is measurement, like, as this space continues to grow, do you think measurement will be the differentiating factor? Right. I sat in on Home Depot second annual in front, which is their, Their. Their new fronts, playfronts, whatever it is you want to call it, answer for retail media. And one of the things that they got on stage and talked about is this concept of like meas on marketing opportunity as opposed in addition to roas. Right. Which then creates another definition of how we're measuring the return on ad spend and return on. On. On our marketing dollars. But do you think going forward that measurement will be the kind of determining factor for who gets ad dollars?

[Amy Owen]

Yeah, I like that. I actually call it the return on retail relationship factor, because what we're, what we do is we look at roas from the media side and then we look at what did that media unlock on the merchandising side or unlocking the relationship and what is that value? And then we look at the total value of the program. So if for some reason the media metric isn't a seller, but you were able to drive a million dollars more in actual sales because you have an end cap like that actually shows that the media worked. So I actually like that piece of going towards. It's not just the media. I think it's going to take us a long time to get there because there are a lot of clients, a lot of agencies, a lot of even retail media partners that still look as retail as just performance. And it's not just performance. Performance is a sliver of it. So I think with when you're looking at the performance piece, it is all about return and it is all about incremental. So I think the education is going to happen, but it's going to happen a little bit, probably slower than we'd like, transparently. Yeah.

[Kameka McCoy]

And maybe we'll get to have this conversation again.

[Amy Owen]

Yeah, I'm, I listen, I love talking about this and I, I love the fact that retail media is still, like, around and it's been around for decades and it just continues to evolve. But I'm sure next time you chat, there's gonna be something else.

[Kameka McCoy]

And I'm sure there will be. Because if nothing else is a consistency in this industry, it's inconsistency.

[Amy Owen]

Exactly. Exactly.

[Kameka McCoy]

Constant change. Listen, Amy, can't thank you enough for joining us on the podcast this morning. We'll talk to you again soon.

[Amy Owen]

Yeah, thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate the time.

[Kameka McCoy]

Well, that brings us to the end of this episode of the Digiday podcast. Thank you to everyone for listening. And please don't forget to share this episode with someone who you think would enjoy it. You can even rate us and leave us a comment on Apple Podcasts. We'll be back next week with another episode of the Ditch Day podcast. Thanks so much for joining us.