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David is a historian, a journalist, and an old friend. He was managing editor and acting editor of The New Republic, a history columnist in the early days of Slate, and a contributing editor to Politico Magazine. He’s currently a professor of History and of Journalism & Media Studies at Rutgers. The author of many books, including Republic of Spin and Nixon’s Shadow, his new one is John Lewis: A Life.

For two clips of our convo — on Lewis defending MLK from a sucker-punch by a white thug, and Lewis getting into an ugly political race against a friend — pop over to our YouTube page.

Other topics: David and me in the old TNR days; Rick Hertzberg; Freud’s theories on homosexuality; conversion therapy and Bill Kristol’s conference on it; how David’s new book isn’t a hagiography; Lewis’ poor upbringing in rural Alabama; his boyhood obsession with books and religion; preaching to chickens; inspired by a radio sermon by MLK; experiencing Jim Crow up-close; respectability politics; the CRA of 1964; Lewis as head of SNCC; getting to know JFK, RFK, and LBJ at a young age; non-violence as a core value; the voting rights campaign in Selma; the violent clash with cops at the bridge; the Voting Rights Act of 1965; the Black Power movement; BLM and George Floyd; Lewis’ wife giving him the confidence to run for office; Marion Barry; Julian Bond and his cocaine habit; colorism; how Lewis was “shockingly early” to support gay rights; his bond with Bayard Rustin; staying vigilant on voting rights in the 1990s; their evolving nature in the 21st Century; his campaign for the African-American History Museum; skepticism toward the Congressional Black Caucus; the flawed documentary Good Trouble; AOC and Ayanna Pressley; Lewis the Big Tent Democrat; switching his ‘08 support from Hillary to Barack; his viral moments of dancing and crowd-surfing; and keeping his integrity over a long career in politics.

Browse the Dishcast archive for an episode you might enjoy (the first 102 are free in their entirety — subscribe to get everything else). Coming up: Christine Rosen on humanness in a digital world, Brianna Wu on trans lives and politics, Mary Matalin on anything but politics, Nick Denton, Adam Kirsch on his book On Settler Colonialism, and John Gray on the state of liberal democracy. Please send any guest recs, dissents, and other comments to dish@andrewsullivan.com.