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Musa is a sociologist and writer. He’s an assistant professor in the School of Communication and Journalism at Stony Brook University. His first book is We Have Never Been Woke: The Cultural Contradictions of a New Elite. He also has a great substack, Symbolic Capital(ism).

For two clips of our convo (recorded on October 9) — how “elite overproduction” fuels wokeness, and the myth of Trump’s support from white voters — head to our YouTube page.

Other topics: raised in a military family; a twin brother who died in Afghanistan; wanting to be priest; his stint as an atheist; converting to Islam; how constraints can fuel freedom; liquid modernity; going to community college before his PhD at Columbia; becoming an expert on the Middle East; getting canceled as a professor because of Fox News; his non-embittered response to it; engaging his critics on the right; my firing from NY Mag; the meaning of “symbolic capitalism”; how “white privilege” justifies the belittling of poor whites; deaths of despair; the dilution of terms like “patriarchy” and “transphobe”; suicide scare tactics; fairness in sports; books on wokeness by Rufo, Kaufmann, Caldwell, and Hanania — and how Musa’s is different; Prohibition and moralism; Orwell’s take on cancel culture; the careerism of cancelers; the bureaucratic bloat of DEI; “defund the police”; crime spiking after June 2020; the belief that minorities are inherently more moral; victim culture; imposter syndrome and affirmative action; Jay Caspian Kang’s The Loneliest Americans; Coates and Dokoupil; Hispanic and black males becoming anti-woke; Thomas Sowell; and the biggest multi-racial coalition for the GOP since Nixon.

Browse the Dishcast archive for an episode you might enjoy (the first 102 are free in their entirety — subscribe to get everything else). Coming up: Damon Linker on the election results, Anderson Cooper on grief, David Greenberg on his new bio of John Lewis, Christine Rosen on humanness in a digital world, and Mary Matalin on anything but politics. Sadly Peggy Noonan can’t make it on the pod this year after all. We tried! And a listener asks:

Is Van Jones still coming on the show? You said he was going to, and now his upcoming interview hasn’t been spoken about for the last few episodes.

He said he would but his PR team put the kibosh on it. Please send any guest recs, dissents, and other comments to dish@andrewsullivan.com.

Our episode with Sam Harris last week was a smash hit, driving more new subs than any other guest in a while. A fan writes:

I always really like your conversations with Sam Harris. You always seem to bring out the best in each other.

A listener dissents:

On your episode with Sam Harris — besides the fact that it was an “interview” of you, not him — your insistence that Harris and Biden haven’t done anything about immigration needs more investigation. For example, see this new piece in the NYT:

The Opinion video above tells the little-known story of how Mr. Biden and Ms. Harris worked behind the scenes to get the border crisis under control. I found that they acted strategically, out of the spotlight, since the earliest days of the administration. They even bucked their own party and fulfilled Republican wishes, though they’ve gotten little credit for it. Their hard work finally paid off when illegal crossings dropped significantly this year.

Sam said toward the end of the episode, “I hope we haven’t broken the Ming vase here. … We both want a Harris presidency. … It’s the least bad option.” I listen to Kamala all the time, and your rants against her are warranted and should be done, but honestly, the two of you have done more to smash the bloody vase than carry it!

I tried to make it through that NYT op-ed video. It’s an absurdist piece of administration spin. There was nothing to stop Biden enforcing his 2024 executive order in 2021. He didn’t because his core policy is expediting mass migration, not controlling it. As for Harris, it’s not my job to be her campaign spokesman. I know a lot of legacy journalists seem to think it’s their job to push her over the finishing line. But that has never been my thinking. I’d like both Trump and Harris to lose. But if I had to pick one, it would be Trump. The idea of four years of Harris is soul-sucking.

Sam is also putting the episode on his own podcast, so the conversation was intended to be a two-way “interview” — though the Dishcast in general is always meant to be a conversation. On the following clip, a listener writes:

You’re absolutely right. But this is so obvious, and the fact that Harris can’t articulate what would clearly be advantageous to her indicates she is incapable of clearly articulating positions. She’s turned out to be the same horrid candidate she was in 2019. Unfortunately.

Another writes about that clip, “As a prosecutor she makes a great case against voting for Trump, but she doesn’t have the defense attorney skills needed to make the case for herself.” This next listener has an idea for a Sister Souljah moment:

Sam asked you what Harris could do in the final stretch, and you both agreed that she needed to show some independence from Biden and also distance herself from the craziness of the woke left. I want to point you to my latest Substack post, which points out an opportunity she currently has to do both in one press conference.

In the past couple of weeks, the Biden Justice Department has sued the Maryland State Police, the Durham Fire Department, and the South Bend Police Department over “racially disparate” employment tests. They are testing skills such as literacy, basic math, and the ability to communicate, all in the context of doing the actual job. The DOJ is calling it discrimination because black people do worse on the test than white people. There is also a physical test where you have to prove you have the minimum level of fitness to do the job, and the DOJ calls that sexist because fewer women are able to pass.

This is obviously complete insanity. Anyone but the wokest of the left understand that these jobs require standards, and that implementing any objective standards is likely to have a disproportionate impact on race and gender.

While Maryland and Durham quickly settled the suits and signed consent decrees, South Bend is fighting it. South Bend is, of course, the hometown of former mayor Pete Buttigieg. Harris could schedule a campaign event in South Bend with Mayor Pete where she defends the South Bend police and pledges that a Harris administration will drop this suit and not prosecute any similar cases. This could be a “Sister Souljah moment,” as Sam called for. It would also show independence from Biden, since his DOJ has been filing these suits. It could bring the last few undecideds over to her side.

Dream on, I’m afraid. This kind of race discrimination and abandonment of objective standards in hiring is at the heart of Harris’ leftism. She hasn’t renounced it. Au contraire.

Here’s another clip from the Sam pod:

Another listener writes:

I happen to subscribe to both the Dishcast and Sam’s podcast, so I know you both well. I’m so surprised that you two can’t understand the appeal of Trump to one half of the country. Let’s be honest and clear: Trump voters care LESS about preserving the system as-is (the peaceful transfer of power) than about RESCUING the nation from the cancer of woke. It is almost completely cultural.

Trump supporters despise the anti-white, anti-male, anti-Christian hatred that has been so deeply ingrained into our daily lives. We all live in terror for wrong thought and wrong speech. We feel disgust for being called racist, misogynist, xenophobic — with the knowledge that woke progressives control the apparatus of power in our media, corporations, entertainment, and education. It is cancer when our entire body politic has been so thoroughly invaded by this malignant force.

We are sick of this cancer. Sick. Sick. Sick. Kamala is a shill of this force. Her tepid disavowals (and convenient pivot to the center) are not genuine. We know who she is. She protects and metastasizes this cancer into every touchpoint of our lives. Sam says she is “no woke Manchurian candidate,” but he is wrong. Even if he IS right, why should we trust her when she so clearly made her wokeness clear in 2019? We shouldn’t.

The left is cancer. Trump is radiation. No one wants cancer and no one wants the radiation, but that’s where we are.

I feel you. I do. It’s what makes this election so painful for me.

Another listener comments on “the subject of why the Democrats and Harris can’t say what the majority of Americans want to hear on issue after issue”:

Isn’t the fundamental problem very simply that the Overton window of the Democratic Party doesn’t allow it? Harris may know that Americans...

Musa al-Gharbi On Elites And Wokeness