← The Dr. Gabrielle Lyon Show
The Dr. Gabrielle Lyon Show
Carbs vs. Protein: Which Macronutrient Is Actually More Dangerous to Overconsume?
00:54:39
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- [00:00]
Dr. Lion
The biggest mistakes that people over 40 make when it comes to body composition. Are you ready? Americans, right out the gate have a calorie problem. We are over consuming total calories. The average American consumes about 300 grams of carbs daily. This will distort metabolism. 75% of Americans are either overweight or obese. We are exposed and have access to cheap processed carbohydrates that we haven't had before. How do we structure a meal plan and really understand our bodies and the environment that we're in will allow us to succeed? 95% of Americans are over consuming refined grains. And 80 to 90% of Americans are under consuming fruits and vegetables. Understanding your carbohydrate tolerance is probably one of the most important things that you can do to empower your own nutrition plan. A lot of the information out there is very clear on protein, carbohydrates. There are things that we are beginning to learn that can reframe how we orient ourselves to carbohydrates.
- [01:12]
Nick
Where can you consume the minimum amount of calories to get the maximum amount of protein?
- [01:17]
Dr. Lion
Are you ready?
- [01:17]
Nick
I'm taking notes.
- [01:18]
Dr. Lion
Okay.
- [01:26]
Nick
Based on metabolic science, which one is actually more dangerous for the average person to over consume carbs or protein?
- [01:33]
Dr. Lion
Sounds like a trick question. It's not. It's carbohydrates. And let's talk about why. Let's base this answer in reality versus a theoretical construct. Nick, I think this, this is very important. First of all, Americans right out the gate have a calorie problem. We are over consuming total calories. And 75% of Americans are either overweight or obese, which is staggering. 12%, almost 12% have type 2 diabetes. This is according to the CDC. Obesity is definitely a problem. And it's a problem of excess calories. Thinking about what kind of calories are causing this problem, I would argue it's a disregulation of carbohydrates. And let's just look at what Americans are eating. So the primary source of calories in the US is carbohydrates. And they provide about 50% of daily calories. And of course, we know that it's not fruits and vegetables. Do you know the number one food ingested carbohydrate food?
- [02:41]
Nick
Yeah, I'm gonna go with chips.
- [02:43]
Dr. Lion
Okay, so I've got some numbers here. And this is based on the data set and Hanes. The top food categories for dietary energy are the following. Cookies, cakes, pastries. And this is about. This says here 7.2% of daily calories.
- [03:03]
Nick
I could see that.
- [03:03]
Dr. Lion
Yeast breads, 7.1% sugar added soft drinks. People are still drinking this. 5.4% and 40% from high fructose corn syrup goods like the following. Crackers, pretzels and chips.
- [03:20]
Nick
So chips were down on the list. Cookies beat chips.
- [03:24]
Dr. Lion
The categories of high carbohydrate foods provide nearly 30% of our daily calories, with the majority coming from refined grains. And your original question is, which is more detrimental? Is it carbohydrates or protein? And why now? You and I, right out the gate, were talking about carbohydrate disposal.
- [03:49]
Nick
Yes.
- [03:50]
Dr. Lion
And I made a statement saying that anything above 40 grams of carbohydrates. And to be clear, I'm not talking about fruits and vegetables, I'm talking about those highly. Exactly. These highly processed, highly calorically dense foods. The average American consumes about 300 grams of carbs daily. If we were to break that down into a meal, that would be three oral glucose tolerance tests a day.
- [04:21]
Nick
Yuck.
- [04:21]
Dr. Lion
Carbicide. That is fully carbicide. If we were to think about the average American eating a hundred grams of carbohydrates per meal, this will distort metabolism. And here's why I did not make up this number, despite what you see on social media, because there was some, some situations out there we have to understand. It's being very taken out of context, but glucose is an important fuel for most cells in the body. There's. It's an obligatory fuel for brain, red blood cells and the kidney cortex. We can agree upon that, yes. However, the three tissues combined use approximately. Are you ready for this? I mean, you probably know this 80 to 100 grams of glucose daily, which translates into approximately 4 grams per hour.
- [05:05]
Nick
Sound a lot, no?
- [05:06]
Dr. Lion
And if you have a small brain, if 4 grams per hour, with the brain accounting for the majority of the use, we're in trouble. When you consume more than 40 grams and you are sedentary, then you begin to rely on other mechanisms like insulin which should be not used. Meaning we shouldn't rely on insulin for every meal. Because from my perspective, it's more of a fail safe mechanism. But it is not what we should be doing.
- [05:37]
Nick
Yeah, I haven't thought about that. For every meal, I would think we'd have an insulin response for a meal. It's just if it was chronically throughout the day.
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Dr. Lion
And high.
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Nick
And high.
- [05:47]
Dr. Lion
Right, and high. So if we really think about what the body uses at rest, you can push your body to use whichever fuel over time, right? I mean flexible it is flexible. But I have some numbers here which I think are really important. So at rest, healthy muscle derives most of its energy from fatty acids. But during intense maximal exertion exercise, muscle will then shift to nearly 100% glucose.
- [06:18]
Nick
If.
- [06:20]
Dr. Lion
Most of us are not training intensely, then skeletal muscle at rest is burning primarily fatty acids. And this is important to understand because this is going to be very surprising for people. But the glucose used by skeletal muscle can be as low as 2 grams per hour. In a resting state. The energy used by skeletal muscle is low. 13 calories per kg per day. Your total weight is 80 kg. You don't have 80 kg of muscle. I mean, listen, we can all dream.
- [06:53]
Nick
That was a little hurtful, but. Okay, go on.
- [06:55]
Dr. Lion
But skeletal muscle makes up about 40% of your body weight.
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Nick
Yeah.
- [06:59]
Dr. Lion
Leaving, let's say 30 to 35 kgs of skeletal muscle, and assuming 35 kgs of muscle, the resting energy metabolism or energy expenditure from muscle in just doing Nothing is about 450 calories. That's nothing. No, it's not 450 calories. Eight. If that was. I mean, it's 450 calories.
- [07:21]
Nick
Yeah.
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Dr. Lion
That's 113 grams of carbs. Grams of carbs.
- [07:27]
Nick
For a dude your size, that is about that. 30 to 40 grams per meal. Right. Broken out if you're sedentary.
- [07:34]
Dr. Lion
And if we think about resting energy expenditure, let's say the maximum would be 20 grams per hour. And this is assuming that only glucose is being used. That allows for. Oh, this hurts my heart so bad. That allows for muscle to dispose of 5 grams per hour, which is less than the estimates in obviously fasted individuals after an oral glucose tolerance test. So let's reframe this. Skeletal muscle, which makes up 40% of your body weight, is not very metabolically active and it does not readily use glucose as its primary substrate. If you are having more than 100 grams of, or more than 40 grams of glucose per meal, where does that go? What ends up happening? And for the average person, they are not going through long periods of fasting. No, I think that this is really important to flesh out because we talk all about protein. And protein by itself is, I don't want to say thermogenic, but there are so many uses for these amino acids.
- [08:45]
Nick
You know, if you need to, you can make glucose so it can cover the carbohydrate. But then also, again, to frame this, we're not talking about endurance athletes. We're talking about the average sedentary person who needs to lose weight or to control their body composition. And the benefit of protein is it promotes satiety, right, that you don't get from carbohydrates. And we've all had that incident, or maybe you've never had it, but where, you know, you, you start eating chips and then all of a sudden there's.
- [09:12]
Dr. Lion
Never happened to you.
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Nick
It never happened to you. But so it's happened versus. I've never had a moment where like I'm eating a steak uncontrollably and I keep going, right? I'm, I'm, I'm full after that steak. I think that's important to, to know.
- [09:25]
Dr. Lion
There's a lot of confusion about protein, what kind, how much and when. This episode is brought to you by Body Health. And we're going to talk about what the science shows. Total daily protein intake is the foundation for building and maintaining muscle. But factors like amino acid profile and how quickly those amino acids are delivered can influence how efficiently your body uses that protein. Your body breaks down protein into amino acids and then rebuilds new proteins into muscle, bone and other tissues. The body requires nine essential amino acids and each do a different thing. And that's where perfect aminos comes in. It delivers all nine essential amino acids in the precise ratio your body needs, providing rapid absorption and of course, high utilization. So if your goal is to build and protect muscle, while of course optimizing recovery and body comp, perfect amino can help make every gram count. Head to bodyhealth.com and use the code Lion20 to get 20% off your first order. If we were to design a diet that is good for metabolism, then we have to start with where we are. And where we are is simply this. The average American consumes around 300 grams of carbohydrates a day. They're eating multiple meals. Therefore, if you just simply go through the math and look at how much can the body dispose of, which is what you and I have been talking about. It's not very much at rest, it's not. And for example, after an oral glucose meal, which is 75 grams, you know, women that are pregnant, we do these glucose tolerance tests. Skeletal muscle takes up approximately. Now keep in mind this is fasted right, 20, 26% of the dose. What happens when someone gets that challenge? Roughly, fat oxidation gets inhibited.
- [11:25]
Nick
Yes.
- [11:26]
Dr. Lion
And under these conditions, with an acute oral dose of, say, you know, a monosaccharide, after an overnight fast muscle stored, you know, 35% is glycogen, 50% is oxidized, and then 15% goes into this, this other pathway. And during a five hour period after a 75 oral glucose tolerance test, then obviously we start to see more oxidized. And I think that a lot of the data out there, and I used to do this when I was in Washu. Obviously there's a whole team of us, but a euglycemic clamp is this. It is this technique. You're sitting in a dark room. Have you seen the clamp work?
- [12:11]
Nick
No. No.
- [12:12]
Dr. Lion
Okay. So it's not fun. And it is done in a metabolic ward. It is tightly controlled. There's no scary movies, everything is dim, you're not moving at all. And it is an ideal condition in which the scientist controls everything. That does not happen in real life. And so what this does is it allows for that first meal to look like the majority of that is being disposed of. But it's not just about that first meal. What happens subsequently? When you've been sitting at your desk all day and you have your second hundred gram of carbohydrate meal, it creates challenges with metabolism, meaning the following. If someone is sedentary and you are not exercising, laying around on your computer and you give yourself another hundred grams in, say, what, three hours?
- [13:10]
Nick
Yeah.
- [13:10]
Dr. Lion
Your muscle glycogen is still full. Your liver glycogen, it's not really having to regulate blood glucose as much because you haven't given it enough time to be fasted. And this becomes a problem. So when we focus on figuring out how much protein that we need total, you know, because that's the most important macronutrient, and then we begin to dose carbohydrates in a way that doesn't increase insulin levels to a more robust amount. I mean, there's some insulin release which is necessary, but we don't need to rely on, you know, a phase two high insulin release every time that we're eating a meal. So if we are overeating carbohydrates, then we are pushing our body to use carbohydrates as fuel. Preferentially, a sedentary muscle, a resting muscle, is not going to prioritize glucose utilization. And how that comes down to is if you decide to have a bagel and muffins for breakfast, you've not given it the protein that it needs to help regulate satiety, and you are then going to have an increase in insulin and, and then a drop in blood sugar and you're chasing this cycle all day long.
- [14:32]
Nick
Yeah. Which a lot of people are.
- [14:34]
Dr. Lion
Okay, so what would be the take Home message for people. I don't Recommend Going below 100 grams of carbohydrates. Someone could definitely do a very low carbohydrate diet. It's. I mean, I think that there's pretty good data to support that, but again, a great way. And something that we use in the book is we start with a hundred grams of carbohydrates a day. You can titrate up or you can titrate down. The RDA is around 130 grams of carbohydrates a day. And how you get that and how you dose it becomes really important. And when I think about a plate, we think about one third of that plate coming from protein.
- [15:07]
Nick
Yes.
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Dr. Lion
One third coming from fruits and vegetables, and then one third coming from those starchy carbs.
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Nick
I think that's fair. And I like how you structure it. And it's important, again, to state when you talk about fruits and vegetables, those are not included in the carbohydrates we're talking about. Right. So you're talking about more of the starchy sources.
- [15:26]
Dr. Lion
I am. And right now, Americans are eating a 6 to 1 ratio of carbs to protein. But if we can reduce that to closer to a one to one ratio, we start to see changes in body composition that are the following. We see better glucose regulation, better insulin regulation. We're not seeing these huge spikes in insulin. We're also seeing lower triglycerides.
- [15:49]
Nick
That would make sense. Yeah.
- [15:51]
Dr. Lion
These have clear metabolic outcomes for long term health overall. And choices for carbohydrate.
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Nick
I don't know.
- [16:00]
Dr. Lion
What are your favorite carbs?
- [16:01]
Nick
What are my favorite carbs? I enjoy fruits and vegetables. I enjoy a banana. I enjoy berries. I enjoy. I love sweet potatoes. I do love me some sweet potatoes. Quinoa rice. As you know, my wife's half Korean. We make rice. Oh, sourdough.
- [16:18]
Dr. Lion
Oh, yeah. You guys are big on the sourdough.
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Nick
We do enjoy some sourdough. Yeah. We eat a variety of carbohydrates. But. But I also realize at my seasoned age that I have to earn that sourdough. Right. I got to.
- [16:32]
Dr. Lion
Yeah. It's very triggering for people. That's what the. The team is giving me feedback, saying that it's very triggering because now we're putting a level of emotion into the carbohydrate conversation. I don't think it should be okay. We are in this space of highly palatable food. I cannot go to the Home Depot without being accosted by the gummy bears. Right. It's just.
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Nick
I didn't even know. I didn't even know Home Depot had gummy bears.
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Dr. Lion
Well, I mean, I can go to the library and on the way into the library there is a vending machine. We are exposed and have access to cheap processed carbohydrates that we haven't had before becomes very easy. And so this idea of how do we structure a meal plan and really understand our bodies and the environment that we're in will allow us to succeed. For example, let's say you don't want to eat a protein forward diet. I would say you're crazy. But I would also say, okay, fine, you do as you please. And perhaps you, I don't know, you make up the diet, you pick it. But if you understand these principles of how we design meal distribution, protein intake and carbohydrate tolerance, then you can plug that into any diet that you wish. I will also say that the body doesn't have a need for carbohydrates, that we generate it through gluconeogenesis, the liver. But carbohydrates, they do have an important role. The minimum carbohydrate need is 80 grams.
- [18:05]
Nick
80 grams.
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Dr. Lion
The RDA adds a 50 gram buffer as a safety measure and that sets the recommendation at 130 grams. Beyond that, your muscles determine your carbohydrate tolerance.
- [18:16]
Nick
I love it. So if you want that sourdough bread, get out and exercise. That's what I'm doing.
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Dr. Lion
Yeah, I love it. If you are running a marathon, which by the way, Shane is doing a 50 miler this coming weekend.
- [18:26]
Nick
Rattler.
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Dr. Lion
You want to do it with him? He would love that.
- [18:28]
Nick
Dude, I'm training for a ruck. I've got a. I've got my own.
- [18:31]
Dr. Lion
You're training for a ruck. That is hilarious. But he might need 400 to 500 grams to do that and that is no issue. And this is by understanding how the body disposes of glucose, we can then begin to think about this one to one ratio rule. And I will say one more thing, that if we look at the current dietary intakes. So this is the USDA Healthy Eating Index illustrates that 95% of Americans are over consuming refined grains and 80 to 90% of Americans are under consuming fruits and vegetables. No surprise.
- [19:04]
Nick
No surprise.
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Dr. Lion
I love sweet potatoes. I love rice. I also like regular potatoes.
- [19:09]
Nick
Yeah, regular potatoes.
- [19:10]
Dr. Lion
I do not discriminate at all. And this also comes from, I think that your performance background. We always try to place carbohydrates around activity Meet Peak, a luxury brand transforming wellness with the absolute best rare and precious plants. It has cutting edge ingredients and formulations rooted in traditional wisdom. They have botanicals, minerals and vitamins. All that support sustained energy and radiant skin. Peak is proud to introduce Sun Goddess Matcha. An organic sun ceremonial superfood blend that adds some beauty to your daily ritual. It is crafted from the purest tea leaves. It provides a smooth, sustained energy for calm mind and beautiful skin. They have the purest cup. This ceremonial grade matcha is 100% organic and grown in a pristine valley. Ensuring that you get the cleanest, purest cup ever and 20% off lifelong. With a complimentary gift peaklife.comdrlion for 20% off try it. It tastes amazing. And I'm telling you, I think you're gonna glow.
- [20:16]
Nick
The other challenge for some of the folks who are listening, who are parents with the carbohydrate thing, you know, you talked about the vending machines being accosted is like all the kids snacks, right? It's hard to find a kid snack that's not just carbohydrates.
- [20:30]
Dr. Lion
Yeah, it is a challenge. I'm gonna tell you how we've solved it in our household. And it's tough, but what we do is we make beef sticks accessible, we boil hard boiled eggs and we leave them for the kids. Yogurt, those small yogurts. And I know that there's challenges with. It's in plastic. And I tried to make it myself and then put it in this BPA free situation. That's very difficult. Have you tried to do that? And I've tried to do that.
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Nick
I have not tried to do that. I'm just, I'm accepting the plastic on this one. Squeeze.
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Dr. Lion
I did it. And it was just, just. I don't recommend anyone doing that. You know, I actually was trying to make the food and then putting it in their own containers. Unfortunately, I found that all over, everywhere, as you can imagine.
- [21:11]
Nick
But it's good you're saying this because that's reality. Like, like, you know, because I feel like there are some folks, some figures, some influencers maybe who like talk this, this perfect world and I listen to them and I'm like, clearly you don't have kids. Like, you're right because, because the time component, the chaos that introduces. But I like the, I like the eggs. We need to do more. We're doing more eggs.
- [21:33]
Dr. Lion
And these are solutions because if you, you know, it's interesting, you will see that children will have a proclivity towards one or the other. My daughter, you know, Aries, she Will definitely eat protein. And she loves it. My son, who is on the smaller end, Leonidas. It is a real struggle. And if you. For example, Halloween, we have the candy cat. Have you ever heard of the candy cat?
- [21:55]
Nick
I have not heard of the candy. Why didn't you share this? Okay.
- [21:57]
Dr. Lion
The candy cat comes and takes all Halloween candy. And on the weekend, if the candy cat remembers, it may or may not leave one or two candy from Halloween.
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Nick
Does the candy cat leave anything in return?
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Dr. Lion
That's it.
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Nick
It just takes it.
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Dr. Lion
Oh, no. It takes it all. And then the candy cat on a Friday night might leave a Reese's Pieces.
- [22:22]
Nick
I don't know. We had some sort of something that came and deposited money.
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Dr. Lion
But maybe that's the tooth fairy.
- [22:28]
Nick
That's.
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Dr. Lion
That's the toothpaste.
- [22:29]
Nick
No, no. But for the candy, you'll have to ask. You have to ask. But anyway, the candy cat. I'm writing this down. Candy cat.
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Dr. Lion
But again, there is the wish and hopes and dreams, which I think a lot of the data. Again, why do we have data from euglycemic clams? Because it is a highly controlled environment. The scientists control everything. They control the movements. You know, they can measure how much glycogen and gluconeogenesis. Glycogen in the liver, glycogen in the muscle, where this, these carbohydrates are being disposed of. And it's a highly controlled environment. That is not reality.
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Nick
Right.
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Dr. Lion
Most people are going to bed full. They are waking up. Maybe liver glycogen has utilized some of, you know, they. You've used some glucose. But the reality is most people are not going through long periods of fasting. It's just not reality. And when Halloween comes along, that's a lot of carbs. That's a lot of candy, and it's predictable. And then there is Thanksgiving and then there is Christmas, and then there is New Year's. All times in which people come together and celebrate. And they oftentimes celebrate with food. Keeping all of that in mind, how do we design our life for ease? And that would be having your protein prepped and made and making the starchy foods inaccessible to the kids. Sorry, guys.
- [23:48]
Nick
I like it.
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Dr. Lion
Now, moving along to protein. Now, I have changed my mind kind of.
- [23:55]
Nick
Oh.
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Dr. Lion
On one of the protein aspects. And the biggest thing is plant versus animal protein. Now, from an amino acid perspective, all things equal, if you get enough amino acids from your plant protein to your animal protein, I'm happy. That's great. But that's only protein. What about the Micronutrients. And I was listening to Ty Beal who is an expert in this area and according to him, if you are eating less than 30% of your protein from an animal based source, you will not hit your micronutrient needs.
- [24:33]
Nick
I mean, as a dietitian, that's why we're trained so many times with a vegan typically to have them supplement B vitamins, you know, iron, I mean, is an insurance policy, which you don't get that as an omnivore.
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Dr. Lion
Yeah. And also that is probably when I think about when it is, when is it useful to use essential amino acids? If someone continues to choose plant protein over animal protein just because the volume of consumption.
- [25:01]
Nick
Right.
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Dr. Lion
If someone, someone is going to really struggle eating. I don't know, I mean, I guess you can eat a lot of tofu, but what are whole sources, whole food sources of plant protein? What would you even put in there? Rice and beans? Quinoa?
- [25:15]
Nick
Yeah, yeah. It's gonna be complimentary protein. Tofu. Yeah, depending. I mean vegetarian is the easier solution because you have eggs. But the vegan is where it really gets challenging. Again.
- [25:29]
Dr. Lion
And let's talk about, as we're talking about protein. So we're talking about this debate on protein timing, which I didn't know it was still debate, but I do want to touch on protein. Again, the one area where I really have changed my mind is I had been convinced for a long period of time that you cannot build as much muscle on plant protein as you can from animal protein. But again, if all we're talking about is protein, which we don't just eat protein, we eat foods, then it still is inferior from a whole health perspective. Iron, zinc, selenium.
- [26:04]
Nick
Right. From, from like nutrient density. Yeah, yeah. Micronutrient density. Yeah, yeah. I mean, well, and again, let's, let's talk about reality. Most Americans, as we said with the statistics the beginning of the show, are having weight issues. So where can you consume the minimum amount of calories to get the maximum amount of protein?
- [26:27]
Dr. Lion
And what about all the micronutrients? I think iron deficiency anemia is rampant for women, especially women of childbearing age. Again, we know issues with B12.
- [26:38]
Nick
What I tell individuals, I'm, I'm coaching or in my classes is like, you know, religious purposes, ethical purposes. I got it. But if you're trying, if you're, if you're vegan because you think you're going to be more healthy, I would say that's a fallacy that the literature supports being an omnivore instead. But again, religious. I respect that. Ethical, if that's your concern. Although a lot of animals are killed in growing plants that you might not realize. But.
- [27:07]
Dr. Lion
And also I will say, really, again, thinking about the micronutrients. So I was just looking up here. Iron deficiency is the most widespread, affecting over one third of the global population. We are privileged to be able to choose what we eat, whether it's high quality protein. Again, doesn't have to be grass fed, grass finished meat.
- [27:28]
Nick
No.
- [27:29]
Dr. Lion
And if you look at how much meat we're eating, we're eating only about 1.6 to 1.8 ounces a day. And I just want to kind of close the loop here. Essential amino acids can be used for a number of things. When an individual is trying to lose weight, and let's say they want to keep their overall calorie intake low, they could have 2 or 3 ounces of fish, which is very low calorie, say white fish, plus some essential amino acids. And then cumulatively, we're now looking at a meal that would sense to the body it's about 30 grams of protein, something like that. Because 2 to 3 ounces of fish plus essential amino acids will signal to the body that it's getting a more robust protein meal. Another way to think about essential amino acids is I would say, during times of weight loss, which we covered. Also older individuals.
- [28:24]
Nick
I was thinking about my mom.
- [28:25]
Dr. Lion
Tell me, tell me more.
- [28:27]
Nick
She had a leg injury, right. She's recovering from. Broke her leg.
- [28:31]
Dr. Lion
Oh, that's right.
- [28:32]
Nick
You guys were traveling and trying to preserve muscle mass. I've got her on creatine and I should have her on essential amino acids, which I will change after this podcast.
- [28:41]
Dr. Lion
I have some for you.
- [28:42]
Nick
Yeah. Because she's trying to get in enough protein, but she just doesn't have the appetite. So essential amino acids is a great solution.
- [28:49]
Dr. Lion
Yes, yes. And the evidence, this debate as to protein timing, does it matter or does it not? Do you have to eat protein within this, quote, anabolic window? And I would say there is overwhelming evidence to support that you don't. That it's the primary. It's the overall amount of protein first and then how you distribute it second. Have you seen anything different?
- [29:13]
Nick
No, that's. That's exactly what I've seen. I follow a lot of the research out of the International Society of Sports Nutrition, which we both have colleagues in, and I think they do great work.
- [29:22]
Dr. Lion
Oh, oh, sorry. It's time to record an ad for the show. Thank you to one of the sponsors of the show Timeline. And listen, my kids still sleep with me. And after 470 nighttime snack requests, bathroom breaks, my husband snoring, my cell is there like, yo G, we're tapped out. Enter Mitopure. Timeline Nutrition is one of the most thoroughly researched products I have come across in over a decade. Look, carried in my purse. They have peer reviewed published science and this is where it gets really interesting. So for those of you who are following the muscle centric lifestyle, when you increase bioenergetics, you improve muscle function and health in adults. 40 + timeline has been been shown to increase muscle strength and endurance and no change in activity. So whether you've been active resistance training your whole life or you're just getting started or you're not getting a lot of sleep and you've got a million requests, your muscles and your mitochondria need help. And they have just launched their low sugar vegan non GMO gluten free gummies, which by the way, I am eating by the handfuls, which I shouldn't, but they taste delicious. Timeline is offering our community 20% off your first order. Go to timelinenutrition.com DrLion and use the code DrLION to get 20% off. I recommend trying their starter pack with all three different formats and of course their gummies, which are incredible. I'm not that popular with vegans, but let's see if I can make amends. Ready? Here are a handful of suggestions. And when I was vegan, this is what I did.
- [31:01]
Nick
You were vegan?
- [31:01]
Dr. Lion
Yeah, in college.
- [31:03]
Nick
Oh my gosh.
- [31:04]
Dr. Lion
And then my teeth started getting loose, my hair started falling out. It was it. I cried when I ate chicken the first time. So let's talk about this. Here's how I did it. I went right to chicken, which by the way, I don't necessarily recommend, but someone could start with cheese, yogurt or eggs. And oftentimes when, oftentimes when people start to feel better, it's not because the protein is changing. But I really do think that it's the micronutrient profile. Yeah, people feel terrible when they're, when they have iron deficiency.
- [31:35]
Nick
Oh, yeah, less, less oxygen carrying capacity. That'll do it.
- [31:40]
Dr. Lion
And I would say, should we define a low protein diet as say 60 grams a day or the RDA, which is a minimum 0.8 grams per kilogram. So someone is listening to this. We do not recommend anything less than 100 grams of protein per day. 60 grams, from my perspective, regardless of who you are as an adult.
- [32:03]
Nick
Yes.
- [32:03]
Dr. Lion
Would be considered a low Protein diet. Can we agree on that?
- [32:06]
Nick
I. I agree with you.
- [32:07]
Dr. Lion
The next step, I would say, if we are going to transition to a higher protein diet, is it fair to say adding 2 to 3 ounces of fish or chicken every few days is reasonable?
- [32:19]
Nick
I think it's very reasonable. I guess it'll just be for the, for the listener to decide and then.
- [32:25]
Dr. Lion
Adding a week or two later they can have a red meat. Protein timing. We should get back to protein timing. And we said that it doesn't matter.
- [32:35]
Nick
No, just more total.
- [32:37]
Dr. Lion
Let's talk about when protein timing could matter. If someone was overall eating a lower protein diet. My rationale is the muscle is primed. So post exercise. Yeah, you've now increased blood flow. You could have them have a lower protein meal, which might help respond. Their tissue might respond more like a younger person. Let me lay this out. For example, if you look at resistance exercise, that helps with the anabolic response to protein, it somewhat lowers anabolic resistance. So the combination between dietary protein and resistance training is thought to be superior from a timing perspective. If someone was eating a higher protein diet and training, it doesn't matter. But think about your mom.
- [33:29]
Nick
Yes.
- [33:29]
Dr. Lion
And think about my mom. If they are training, and let's say they're training three to four days a week and maybe they're doing Pilates. I personally would like to see a protein bolus post training, zero to two hours after, because I can make an argument as to why that would be helpful.
- [33:49]
Nick
That makes sense, especially in an individual you're really worried about. You're battling sarcopenia.
- [33:55]
Dr. Lion
And I would say that another item, another situation where protein timing might matter is I would say probably in these longer endurance, exhaustive exercises, because you're not just burning glucose, you're also burning amino acids. Protein timing doesn't matter around exercise. So what is the goal? If your goal is maximizing body composition, can we argue that protein timing doesn't necessarily matter? Yes and no.
- [34:24]
Nick
But.
- [34:24]
Dr. Lion
Yes and no. Because what about breakfast? And let's say again, we're trying to design a diet that is accessible and easy and can be followed no matter what. Protein timing doesn't matter when it comes to exercise.
- [34:40]
Nick
Fine.
- [34:41]
Dr. Lion
But what about that first meal of the day? So if we say that protein timing doesn't matter, then that means that that first meal of the day, we don't care what it is. And I would argue that the evidence would support that that first meal of the day, coming out of an overnight fast is meaningful.
- [34:55]
Nick
I'll accept that.
- [34:56]
Dr. Lion
I'll go with that because you have two opportunities to stimulate muscle. Resistance training, I would say exercise in general, but resistance training primarily. And then these dietary amino acids, primarily leucine coming out of an overnight fast muscle is primed and ready to take something up. If you hit it with 30 to 50 grams of protein, not only do you stimulate the tissue but you also release hormones that increase satiety. And this is Heather lydie's work. So 30 to 50 grams at that first meal can be very valuable for those people that are coming off of a GLP1 and or do not want to take a GLP1 but still want to regulate appetite.
- [35:37]
Nick
And I see that as another case for the essential amino acids because you might have people like this, they wake up, they're like I'm not hungry, I want to go train. But they've been fasted but you know they're going to exercise. Whereas it would be easier to get em to drink some essential amino acids versus eat a full meal. They might not be willing to do that.
- [35:55]
Dr. Lion
How good do you think the evidence is for the casein, 35 grams of casein before bed, the slower digesting proteins?
- [36:04]
Nick
I, I think, I can't think of the exact paper but I, I think it's pretty good. It's, it's pretty solid. But again for the individuals who were just trying to maximize muscle mass, like, like, like for the average American, I don't know if it's applicable but if you had somebody, a bodybuilder, somebody really compete, physique competition, then yes. Or maybe back to our cases of the elderly population trying to battle sarcopenia.
- [36:31]
Dr. Lion
Potentially, yes. Can I share with you how I interpret the data?
- [36:35]
Nick
Yes.
- [36:35]
Dr. Lion
Okay. Casein is a milk protein. It has bioactive peptides. Okay, great. That potentially can help promote sleep. But it is safe. It is a slower absorbing, high quality protein. The question is, is that better than another kind of protein source? And here's what I will say, probably not. I don't think the neurotransmitter data is good enough to say casein and its bioactive compounds act on brain function to help increase gaba. I don't know if I can say that. When I was doing my fellowship I spent a lot of time looking at the neurotransmitter data for how one could make a recommendation for protein. And actually it's not even the proteins, the amino acids to then cross the blood brain barrier and how much will we need? Sounds super complicated and a little confusing. And guess what?
- [37:34]
Nick
It is super complicated and a little Confusing.
- [37:36]
Dr. Lion
Yeah. So it is.
- [37:37]
Nick
Yeah.
- [37:38]
Dr. Lion
But the question is, does that protein before bed help with satiety? Nighttime waking? And I haven't seen any studies that look at casein vs just an overall protein meal. And I'm sure that they exist, but I haven't seen it. So I'm kind of like, I think it's great, and here's why. Because it keeps you full longer. That's why.
- [38:01]
Nick
I just want an excuse to eat some cheese before bedtime.
- [38:04]
Dr. Lion
The biggest mistakes that people over 40 make when it comes to body composition.
- [38:08]
Nick
Yes.
- [38:09]
Dr. Lion
Are you ready?
- [38:10]
Nick
I'm taking notes.
- [38:10]
Dr. Lion
Okay. Nighttime eating. I just deserve this moment. We've all been there, we've worked really hard, and there's something that happens where it's Friday night, Friday night rolls around and you've been doing great job training and sticking to your plan, and then boom, pint of ice cream, Netflix and chill, and then it's all downhill for the whole weekend. So what happens is Friday night, we don't prepare for our weaknesses. And the I just deserve it devil shows up. Can you relate? I know you've never done that, but can you relate?
- [38:40]
Nick
There. There may or may not have been a cookie cake that was left out. And I had to go downstairs to get the kids water the other night. Yeah. No, that hit close to home.
- [38:50]
Dr. Lion
The next biggest mistake that I see that people over 40 make is they just prioritize cardiovascular activity. Zone two training, which again, is very important.
- [39:00]
Nick
Right.
- [39:01]
Dr. Lion
But it appears that it seems more difficult to maintain muscle mass as we age. Maybe it's a normal aging process. Again, it doesn't happen to everybody, but for those individuals that it happens to. While cardiovascular activity is important, you have to prioritize resistance training three to four days a week. I mean, I put together a program in this book that everybody and anyone could follow, regardless of where you are.
- [39:27]
Nick
No, I'm doing dumbbell Kettlebell.
- [39:29]
Dr. Lion
Yeah. The other big mistake that I see people over 40 make is they are constantly looking for the quick fix to then follow trends. Very erratic eating. Have you seen that?
- [39:40]
Nick
Oh, yeah. With. With diets.
- [39:41]
Dr. Lion
Yes.
- [39:41]
Nick
Yeah. The diet du jour, whatever you know, is on their feed is what is what they're going to try jumping from. From keto to other different diets. Yeah.
- [39:50]
Dr. Lion
Wait, three, $4,000. Three. Wait, wait, is that number right? I spent more money on skin care. My pores should be tax deductible. Maybe even have their own trust fund. And thank goodness that I found one skin, because one skin doesn't just make empty promises. It's research driven, minimalistic and tested for beauty, skin health and longevity. One skin is the first topical skincare backed by peptide science that targets skin aging at the molecular level. I slather this on all day. They have a peptide that is designed to reduce the accumulation of dead cells or zombie cells that drive inflammation, tissue breakdown as we age. Now, this isn't about cosmetic quick fixes, it's about changing the biology of your skin. Strengthening the barrier, improving firmness, hydration, elasticity with clinically tested ingredients. So if you are focused on aging well from the inside out, it's time also to think about your skin. It should get the same level of care. Go to OneSkin Co for 15% off. Use the code doctorlion. It is amazing and it will not break the bank. Anything else that you want to add to the the biggest mistakes people over 40 make?
- [41:11]
Nick
This might be a philosophical one but, but I think, you know, back to kind of having kids is realizing you still gotta prioritize yourself. You still have to take the time to resistance train, eat right. Like that's being a good parent so you can play, so you can lift, so you can run versus it's easy to fall into the trap of focus everything on the kids and not take care of yourself. I see a lot of parents doing that, which I think their heart's in the right place but they're not realizing maybe the long term problem with that.
- [41:37]
Dr. Lion
Yeah, I mean it's tough because it gets really busy and then know at the end of the day, I mean, I haven't trained yet today. Have you trained?
- [41:45]
Nick
I have not.
- [41:46]
Dr. Lion
Right. So after this we're gonna have to get the kids and we have to train and you're exhausted and tired and you wanna spend time with the kids and do all this stuff. But we clearly recognize that you have to set a certain amount of time aside to be able to do that. And the last thing that I would say for people over 40 is they don't plan for it. You know, you're gonna be hungry, you might as well food prep, pick one.
- [42:11]
Nick
Day or get a meal prep service.
- [42:13]
Dr. Lion
That's right. And I will say that the average American, again, we are not, we are talking to you guys, listening, not saying that you're average, but if we were to look at the numbers, because I would say that the people that are listening to this podcast are not average.
- [42:25]
Nick
Oh yeah, they're exceptional.
- [42:27]
Dr. Lion
They are. And they want to learn more and they want to get through all the noise and part of what we're seeing is in the landscape of social media. It's taking isolated mechanisms, for example, the euglycemic clamp, to determine how much glucose or how many carbs someone can use. In a perfect, controlled world, that's one thing. But we are not living in a perfect, controlled world. And we don't live in a metabolic ward with an IV for a euglycemic clamp with dark curtains and reruns of Fantasy Island.
- [43:01]
Nick
Right.
- [43:01]
Dr. Lion
You.
- [43:01]
Nick
You work with people, humans.
- [43:03]
Dr. Lion
That's right. And one of the things that we do see is that the average American eats nearly double the calories that their body needs. And this is resting energy expenditure. That's just the amount of calories that you need to live. And we are overeating, period. We have to begin to relate to how we design a plate that is easy and accessible no matter where you are. And I hate to say this, recognize that hunger is not an emergency. Which leads us to the next topic, which is the explosion of GLP1s.
- [43:37]
Nick
I was reading in your book that a higher protein diet, one of the way it works, is affecting GLP1. Could you talk a little more about that in GLP1?
- [43:45]
Dr. Lion
So glucagon, like peptide hormone, is what we're talking about. It's a buzzword nowadays. And let's define a higher protein diet. 25 to 35% of the calories come from dietary protein. This improves satiety and it supports protein turnover, supports weight loss in the face of a lower carbohydrate diet, meaning you could argue even 1,130 grams of carbs per day, or a little bit lower, replacing some of the protein with carbohydrates, you can see beneficial effects on blood sugar regulation, which is great. And also because we know if you are eating a higher protein diet, this will also support gluconeogenesis, which is the creation of your body's own glucose, which is amazing. Now, how does protein affect GLP1? Well, when you eat protein, it signals and increases the secretion of GLP1s, which slow gastric emptying.
- [44:49]
Nick
Yes, amazing. That's a great thing.
- [44:52]
Dr. Lion
And what becomes important is that one of the reasons why people fall off their diet is they're hungry or they have the cookie. Yeah, the cookie. The cookie cake. What I think is really fascinating, which I wasn't expecting, is that animal and plant protein, it doesn't seem to matter the source of the protein, with the stimulation of a GLP1 release. And that, I suppose it makes sense. But more importantly, protein stimulates these hormones and Multiple hunger hormones it including GLP1PYY, CCK. And so basically it tells your brain that you've met your caloric need and it doesn't matter if it comes from plant or animal.
- [45:34]
Nick
So for those that maybe don't want to use a GLP1 drug but want those benefits just by increasing protein intake, you know, either from plant or animal, could be easy way to try that out.
- [45:46]
Dr. Lion
Yes. And it's important to recognize that some of this work, this early work was done by Heather Lyde. She looks at FMRI brain function and that first meal effect. I mean she looks at a lot of things but this is, she's a great researcher. One thing to understand is that when you eat from muscle in that 30 to say 50 gram range, you also interestingly you also stimulate these gut hormones that tell your body that it's met its caloric need and it increases satiation. Pretty interesting. Target muscle also get brain effect.
- [46:23]
Nick
I don't understand why somebody wouldn't do that but.
- [46:27]
Dr. Lion
And to be fair though, I bet One way that GLP1 microdosing works is it probably stimulates a GLP1 really similar to a higher protein meal. I can't say for sure because I haven't seen the data looking at the amount of GLP1 release and translating that over to medication because we know that the medication is far and away more effective.
- [46:52]
Nick
Right.
- [46:52]
Dr. Lion
However, this would be nature's own GLP1.
- [46:56]
Nick
Is small frequent protein feedings throughout the day could give.
- [47:00]
Dr. Lion
No, I would say no, no, you have to hit that 30 gram threshold.
- [47:05]
Nick
So 30 grams per each meal, 30 to 50 grams. 30 to 50 grams at each meal.
- [47:10]
Dr. Lion
Will increase GLP1 and CCK and other.
- [47:14]
Nick
I guess the question is, is for how long, what's the dose?
- [47:18]
Dr. Lion
Probably I haven't seen data because that it's so difficult to do the second meal effect because you can't really control for that. But that first meal effect is probably three to four hours.
- [47:32]
Nick
We could say every three to four hours take in 30 to 50 grams of protein. Could possibly get this GLP1 effect of like similar to an individual who's microdosing.
- [47:43]
Dr. Lion
Potentially.
- [47:44]
Nick
Potentially.
- [47:45]
Dr. Lion
And then another way to even think about it in that vein is that how do we support the micro dosing use? I would support it with a higher protein diet.
- [47:55]
Nick
Yeah.
- [47:56]
Dr. Lion
Because then you magnify the effect.
- [47:57]
Nick
So and then just to frame it is obviously I know the Stacy Sims angle but then also even when I was with Louisa it's like she doesn't recommend females do cold plunge which I know.
- [48:09]
Dr. Lion
Is that Louisa. I love Louisa. Nicole.
- [48:12]
Nick
I know, I know.
- [48:14]
Dr. Lion
I have not seen any data to support that there. So mechanistic data doesn't support the. What? This is also what we're talking about, the euglycemic clamp. So I have not seen any data to support that there's a sex difference.
- [48:27]
Nick
But why I say that is obviously these are two, you know, smart individuals.
- [48:32]
Dr. Lion
Whom I love, actually.
- [48:33]
Nick
Who you love? Yeah, yeah. I'm not trying to, I'm not trying to create that. But, but I want to say then it might be fun to educate people because I feel like that's a, it's like a prevailing thought. But nobody points to a paper to say this is why females can't do hit or this is why females can't get exposed to something that raises their cortisol.
- [48:53]
Dr. Lion
I think that this is a really great question. And for the book we interviewed Martin Gabala out of McMaster University and he is considered one of the world leading experts in high intensity interval training. And let's look at what the data supports. The data in high intensity interval training leads to significant improvement in VO2 max, also body composition and then multiple cardio metabolic outcomes. There is no data to support, to my knowledge that high intensity interval training for women is a negative in reproductive age females. Let's just pick that High intensity interval training is associated, and by the way, this goes for everybody with improved cardiometabolic health. And in women with polycystic ovarian syndrome, which is the number one cause of female infertility, HIIT yields greater improvements to aerobic capacity and insulin sensitivity and it can reduce the hyper androgenism compared to just moderate intensity cycling.
- [49:55]
Nick
So what I'm hearing is females, males, everybody, you should, you should be doing HIIT as part of your training program. There's zone two, there's resistance training. But HIIT should be utilized by all populations.
- [50:07]
Dr. Lion
I mean, we know that it affects the body and the mind. We know that it improves executive functioning. And again, I did my fellowship in geriatrics and we. Executive functioning is thinking about the numbers. It improves cognition. I would say that in summary, it is time efficient and it is effective and it's a great strategy to improving overall fitness.
- [50:32]
Nick
I love it.
- [50:33]
Dr. Lion
Let's talk about really doubling down on how we're going to design a diet. And this is, and we've been doing this for a really long time. It's a protein to carb ratio and typically if you shoot for equal amount of protein to carbohydrates, people Seem to do better. And this is this idea of designing our diets not so you're just always counting calories, but protein. And I should specify starchy carbs. So, for example, if you eat 120 grams of protein daily, you can have equal amount of carbohydrates.
- [51:08]
Nick
And so that's just controlling kind of like that insulin response, that satiety. That's what we're looking for.
- [51:13]
Dr. Lion
Exactly right. And then we say, if you want more carbs, then you earn them through exercise. And I will say there's one more ratio, and that is the carb to fiber ratio. Yes. And this is. I know when we go to your house, there's all kinds of broccoli things that don't exist in ours. But one cup of broccoli contains about 7 or so grams, 7.8 grams of carbs and 4.6 grams of fiber, which is a lot of fiber, if you do the math. Just hang with me. 7.8 divided by 4.6 equals a carb to fiber ratio of 1.7. And we want these carb to fiber ratios. Essentially, you want more fiber than you want those starchy carbs, which again, makes sense, but it allows you to. And we have a whole list in the book as to how to calculate it, but frankly, we've calculated it for you. And what this does is you're not just picking fruits and vegetables to just pick them. And again, that's great. It's a great place to start. But for example, a banana has a high amount of carbohydrates and a low amount of fiber. So that is not your ideal choice.
- [52:26]
Nick
Right. For. For based off that. So, and just to. To frame it, when we talk about the carbs to fiber intake, think of like the blood glucose levels the fiber is providing. What, like a speed bump? Right. So when those levels elevate, it slows down some of that release of the glucose.
- [52:44]
Dr. Lion
Understanding your carbohydrate tolerance is probably one of the most important things that you can do to empower your own nutrition plan. A lot of the information out there is very clear on protein. How much protein do you need? Whether you want to go towards the lower end or towards the higher end, it is very clear. And the data is out there and people are discussing it. Carbohydrates. There are things that we are beginning to learn that can reframe how we orient ourselves to carbohydrates. For example, this idea of carbohydrate tolerance, it is not common. In fact, we're working on a paper about it now. And this is taking what is in front of us and then designing a diet to allow for optimal health, maximizing body composition. And this means that if we look at the RDA for carbohydrates at 130 grams, it allows for a buffer. So it's. There's an 80 gram of carbohydrate need and a 50 gram buffer, which is pretty easy to make. But the step further is how do we then position carbohydrates in our nutrition plan to make sure that we're not chasing blood sugar or exhausted all the time? And the way to do that is to recognize that just like we eat protein in discrete meals, we also have to eat carbohydrates in those same discrete meals. A one to one ratio of protein to carbohydrates, not going above 40 grams of carbohydrates unless followed or around physical activity. Nick, as always, I am so grateful for you to come on over. And then we talk science and we nerd out. And glucose clamps and glucose disposal. These episodes are so valuable because we're able to hunker down and talk about questions that the audience has. And that is why we're doing this.
- [54:30]
Nick
Yes. Love it. Thank you. Pleasure is all mine.