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The Dr. Gabrielle Lyon Show
Sex Therapist explains The Science-Backed Guide to a Better Sex Life | Marianne Brandon
01:19:42
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- [00:00]
Sam
You are in the business of making sex better. How does a woman or a man.
- [00:05]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
Improve their sex life? I would discourage people from being too focused on touch and where you're touching and how more focused on who you are in the bedroom.
- [00:16]
Sam
How often should a person have sex?
- [00:18]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
So this is such a great question because people argue about this all the time. Women can feel pressure to have an orgasm, like during sex. But what is interesting is there's little pieces of research here and there that talk about things like her anatomy affects how likely she is to have an orgasm during sex.
- [00:37]
Sam
I've never heard that before.
- [00:38]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
Yeah. Women also will often find it almost intrusive to be touched before they're turned on.
- [00:47]
Sam
Oh, God, guys. Yes. Every man needs to understand this.
- [00:52]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
Yes, they do. People are having less sex, but they're masturbating more. One thing that people don't realize is they find that their orgasms when masturbating are better. If you're masturbating, you know what you're feeling, you know what exactly, how to change your touch or modify speed, intensity to have the best orgasm. Does that make sense? Yeah. Okay.
- [01:15]
Sam
I mean, I'm just still stuck on female erections. The guys listening to this are going, wait, what? Women have erections. And the women listening or watching this are going, wait, I do have erections. How does a woman or a man improve their sex life?
- [01:37]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
People get off track with that in that they think, well, there must be some other way to touch or there must be some other activity to do in the bedroom that's really going to make the difference. But really the difference lies within us. It's an internal difference. So what I would suggest to people is, why trying something new, which is what you always see in the magazines. There's nothing wrong with that. That's great advice. But the more important thing thing is to recognize who you are in the bedroom, what you're bringing to the situation. And it's going to involve being focused. So where is your attention? So that's one point. Becoming a better lover is about bringing your attention into your body. We call that embodiment. So that's one very important piece of the puzzle. Also as important is what sort of personality you bring into the bedroom. And I would suggest that it's very helpful for people to develop a few different kind of sexual Personas so that they can keep their sex life interesting over time. So what I tell my patients, and I think it can be difficult to learn, but after people learn, really works.
- [02:51]
Sam
Is there a decrease, for example, in overall women's orgasms, men's orgasms now, versus what we've been seeing in the past.
- [03:01]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
People are having less sex, but they're masturb more for the most part. So if we're talking about frequency, I would say no real decrease because people are taking matters into their own hands more.
- [03:14]
Sam
So there's, there's so many inappropriate jokes that we're going to be making on this. I promise we're not going to have swear words. So if there's children around, you may or may not want to turn this off.
- [03:24]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
One thing that people don't realize is for the most part, they find that their orgasms when masturbating are better. And people worry about that. Like, why is this, what's wrong with my sex life if my orgasms are better alone? And of course, not everyone will agree with that, but it's simply the fact that if you're masturbating, you know what you're feeling, you know exactly how to change your touch or modify speed, intensity to have the best orgasm. So with the exception of new relationships, when people are generally so excited that anything works really well, over time, people find that masturbation can be more sexually stimulating.
- [04:06]
Sam
How often should a person have sex? What is a normal cadence?
- [04:09]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
Well, first of all, we know there's a wide variety of what people find comfortable. 15% of people orgasm at least once a day.
- [04:17]
Sam
Male or female, more male than female.
- [04:20]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
But this statistic comes from a group of both. But that's more likely to be male. So of adults, 15% of adults orgasm at least once a day. Among college students, four 40% of males and about 4% of females orgasm once a day.
- [04:37]
Sam
Why such a huge difference in number, in percentage?
- [04:40]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
What we know is that in just about every aspect of sexuality, guys do it more, you know, so whether it be fantasy or masturbation, or engage in a fetish or desire for sex, or interest in sexual creativity or willingness to pay for sex, I mean, it goes on and on. Men are just more engaged sexually in all of these ways than women. Now, it is common for people in our culture to say, yes, well, women were, you know, sort of trained not to like sex. So, for example, particularly religious environments, they sort of discourage women from being sexual, at least at a young age, that sort of thing. But the real truth overall is that there are some very real differences between male and female sexuality that we tend to ignore in this culture. But I think they're super important for us to understand if we're trying to create a Satisfying sex life with our partner. These differences are critical to understand.
- [05:38]
Sam
So how can a man please his partner? Is it a G spot? Understanding?
- [05:46]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
Right. So I would say the G spot is one of those examples where we get over focused on the body and under focused on who we are in the bedroom. Some women feel like they have a G spot. Other women don't really feel like they have that. I would discourage people in general from being too focused on touch and where you're touching and how more focused on who you are in the bedroom. I want to give you an example of a homework I give my patients. It really works. Okay. I suggest to them that they find a piece of music that they would dance to at a wedding, like, so romantic. And they find a piece of music that they would enjoy in a jazz club on a Saturday night. And they find a piece of music that's really kind of hard and angry. All right. And then they practice on their own, like, lock the door and practice with each of these pieces of music, how their body would move to that music. And people can feel kind of silly when they're doing that.
- [06:50]
Sam
I would be very embarrassed. And we have cameras all over our house.
- [06:54]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
Right. So, yeah, so maybe go to a hotel room.
- [06:59]
Sam
I'm just. I'm being totally honest and straightforward.
- [07:02]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
But what happens is people learn how their body can bring a different energy into the bedroom. And if a man wants to please his partner, the chances of him engaging her are so much greater if he can sometimes bring a real intense personality, and he can sometimes bring a really sensual personality and sometimes bring a really loving personality. So he can like, gear how that experience goes based on his Persona. And he can put music on to help, but he will see that his. The way he looks at her based on these moods, the way his body moves. I'm going to argue that he's going to find a huge improvement in his sexual experience with her because he can open her in each of these ways, and it's a different experience. So I think another important point here is that stress closes us, and we're also stressed.
- [08:03]
Sam
Is that why people have less sex now? You said that people are having less sex now.
- [08:07]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
I think that's a very important reason. I think there are a variety of reasons, but that's one. So you know, you can't have good sex from this place. If you just looked on your phone, you got yourself agitated.
- [08:17]
Sam
Is that true? I think men. Men are able to. And again, I talk to. I hear from, number one, we have a medical practice. And I hear from female patients and male patients all the time, that for guys it's a bit of a stress release. And for women, they go, oh God, I have just spent my entire day working, doing everything, and now you wanna have sex.
- [08:39]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
So that is absolutely correct. What I say to my patients is, for a woman, even though she enjoys sex, having sex is often like gathering information for going for a run. You love exercise, you love going for a run, but you're not gonna spontaneously go for a run. Probably at 11 o' clock at night when you've just finished dinner and the dishes like going. There's no pleasure in a run at 11 o' clock at night, right? It's that same thing. But for a guy, it doesn't require that level of energy. So he's fed by that at 11pm or whatever sex feeds him. For her, more than likely she feels like she has to gather energy to enjoy herself. It doesn't mean she doesn't enjoy herself, it just means that it requires something to give.
- [09:24]
Sam
If you listen every week and feel like we are in this together, which I believe that we are learning, growing and building strength, then I created a way for us to get connected even more closely. It's called Forever Strong Insider, a premium community for listeners who want to go deeper. You'll get ad free episodes, which I know you'll love. Bonus Q&As, where your questions shape the conversation behind the scene moments, because, let's face it, I'm hilarious from my daily life and written takeaways to keep at your fingertips. But more than that, you'll be supporting the show so that we can keep creating content that matters. If you've ever wanted to feel part of the inner circle, this is your invitation. Join us as foreverstrong.supercast.com or through the link in the show notes. What can a man do? And I get the. There's the music component. Is there a particular way that he can touch her? Is. Are there things that are biological in humans? For example, let's say a, I don't know, woman strokes a man's penis. He probably is going to get an erection, right? He doesn't have to do anything. He could probably be watching puppies jump over ladders or fences and you'll probably get an erection.
- [10:38]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
Fair enough.
- [10:39]
Sam
Is there the equivalent to that for a woman?
- [10:42]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
I would say no. And women have erectile tissue just like guys, except that much of her erectile tissue is hidden under skin. So the clitoris, the part that we can see, is very small compared to the amount of that erectile tissue that's in her body, but it's under the skin. So first of all, it's going to be more challenging for her to have an orgasm, probably because it's just sort of like trying to touch that tissue is like if we were massaging a man who was wearing five condoms, it's not going to be as stimulating. Right. So the skin serves that buffer. So you have to approach her body, I think. Does that make sense? Yeah. Okay.
- [11:21]
Sam
I mean, I'm just still stuck on female erections. Right. I mean, this is stuff you talk about every day. But the guys listening to this are going, wait, what? Women have erections. And the women listening or watching this are going, wait, I do have erections.
- [11:39]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
Well, it's an erectile tissue, not necessarily translated to.
- [11:43]
Sam
But again, I don't actually know this answer. Can the clitoris become erect?
- [11:47]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
Yes.
- [11:48]
Sam
Okay.
- [11:48]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
Yes. Yes. So what if we're talking a heterosexual couple? He will do well to remember that it's more challenging for her to have an orgasm just because so much of that tissue is hidden. So again, if he approaches it like, how. How would I feel as a man if I was wearing five condoms? You know, would it be harder to have an orgasm? Yes. Okay. So women also will often find it almost intrusive to be touched before they're turned on.
- [12:18]
Sam
Oh, God, guys. Yes, please say that again. Every man needs to understand this.
- [12:25]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
Yes, they do. So touch before she's ready feels intrusive.
- [12:29]
Sam
Yes.
- [12:30]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
She needs a lot of buildup before touch feels pleasurable. And unfortunately, when people cut out, like things like foreplay or any kind of sensual sexual dance before sex, she hasn't had the prep time. She needs to want that now. It's different at the beginning of a relationship because she's sort of been prepping constantly because she's just turned on. She's got a new partner. She's excited. So what people learn in that first year of a relationship is, wow, my partner excites me so much, I don't even need foreplay. I'm just already ready. Right. And guys will say that about their women. She's already wet. Can we say that? Yeah. Yes.
- [13:10]
Sam
Okay. We've officially prepped people prior that we are going to be talking about. Okay.
- [13:15]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
That's who they expect their partner to be sexually as a relationship ages. It's not. That's what happens at the beginning of a relationship. So now, let's say a year or two in, she's not just automatically ready anymore. And so there needs to be A process of her getting her body ready so that touch feels good. And so I encourage women to play a role in that. Like, to kind of stimulate themselves in certain ways before they enter a bedroom. But he needs to recognize, again, if we're talking about heterosexual relationships, he needs to recognize that he's gotta start slow. Like, he can start by, you know, rubbing her arm or her chest, but not her breast yet. Not even her nipples yet. Like, give her time.
- [13:58]
Sam
Lower her vagina. Do not go straight in.
- [14:01]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
Do not.
- [14:01]
Sam
It does it feel for. It feels intrusive.
- [14:04]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
It feels intrusive. And so the problem that some people run into is then they think, okay, well, I'll give her a massage first, and then we'll have sex. Well, she's tired and you give her a massage, she's falling asleep. So that's really not the answer. You have to find this happy medium between, like, too much relaxation and enough to get her interested. So, like, inner thighs are a great way to start. I would say start with her panties on so she's not thinking she's about to get touched and she can relax. Okay. If she's completely nude and you're playing with her inner thighs, she's waiting any moment for her to. For you to touch her clitoris, and she's not ready. Right. But if her panties are on and you're touching your inner thighs, she can kind of relax into that. That's what you want. So if she's, like, relaxed into that, when you move into her breasts, her nipples, her genitals, she's ready.
- [14:58]
Sam
Pretty sure you just solved 50% of all relationship problems right now. Incredible advice. Truly incredible advice. And as a culture, we don't talk about this stuff and we don't think about it. No, it's all about. I mean, the topic of porn and sex and AI, which we're gonna get to, I think, is really starting to emerge. But how to pleasure a woman and to understand the steps is not. We don't really talk about it.
- [15:24]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
We don't talk about it. And where people are learning truly is porn. And this is absolutely never, ever. Porn doesn't approach this kind of education at all. And what men. Men are trying really hard, I think, to please their partners. And they're very frustrated because all they know is what works for them. And what guys have to remember is what works for them is probably not what works for her. That doesn't mean he's doing something wrong. It doesn't mean she's doing something wrong. We're just different sexual Animals. And so we just have to understand those differences. So he thinks when he walks by his woman and he grabs her breast, she's going to think that's fun. Because if she were to walk by him.
- [16:07]
Sam
100%. Yeah.
- [16:08]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
Right? Yeah. If she walks by him and grabs his crotch, he thinks that's fun. So he's trying to do.
- [16:14]
Sam
Do it again. I'm ready for you.
- [16:15]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
Exactly. He's to trying, like, let me give her this gift and grab her breath.
- [16:21]
Sam
Is that an effective four play strategy?
- [16:24]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
Not at all. I can't tell you how many patients say to me, my guy, you know, I'm in the kitchen, I'm getting dinner ready, he's grabbing my breath, he's grabbing my butt. They hate it.
- [16:34]
Sam
Okay, this is extremely helpful. And you know, I've got some statistics here that I wanted to share with you because one of the things that I hear is that some people are more or less sensitive. The tissue, whether it's the clitoris or the nipple, that they find that they're less sensitive. What can someone do? What could a female do if she's experiencing that?
- [16:58]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
So if she feels less sensitive, point one is if she used to feel more sensitive, she needs to get her hormones checked. And not just checked, because she needs to get her hormones checked by someone who knows. Because if she goes to a general gynecologist that isn't really well versed in all of this, the chances are that gynecologist is going to say, your hormones are fine, and that's all she's going to get. She needs to go to someone in sexual medicine who has an understanding of hormones and how they work in the body. Because it's not necessarily that her levels are low, they may be just low for her. So that's point one. Check hormones.
- [17:31]
Sam
Is there. Can I stop you really quickly? Is there one particular hormone? Would you say testosterone would be the hormone that seems to have the biggest impact in sensitivity?
- [17:40]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
Gosh, I'm not sure what to say about that. It's going to be estrogen or testosterone, but it could be estrogen. Estrogen. So I wouldn't necessarily. And maybe there's research that I haven't seen on that. Okay, so I'm going to say to you I'm not positive, but what I am positive about is go to someone who is educated in that so that they can be helpful. And if people are worried, which they shouldn't be most likely, but if they're worried about systemic effects of hormones and they don't want to take hormones which you do podcasts about.
- [18:13]
Sam
And we treat patients at the clinic.
- [18:15]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
Right. So. So there's. There's so much research out there that shows how healthy hormones can be. But if still, if someone's concerned or if she's had breast cancer and she doesn't want to go on hormones. There are hormones that you can apply topically just to your genitals that have very little impact on the rest of your body. That can help with sensitivity.
- [18:33]
Sam
I love that. Is that the same for a male? So if a male is experiencing less sensitivity, is.
- [18:40]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
I would say, what do they do? I would say that's absolutely. So before we leave women, let me say that if she's having a hard time feeling turned on, I would suggest that she try something like lay a warm washcloth on her genitals for a few minutes before she enters the bedroom. And perhaps that'll bring. That's intended to bring more blood flow to her genitals. And she may find that helps with sensitivity. She may not, but she could. And another thing, of course, are sex toys and finding the right sex toy for her because there's so many out there now. So there are sex toys that, like, bring blood into her purpose? Yes.
- [19:14]
Sam
Without creating. Would it be to not create direct stimulation? Right. When I think of sex toys or sex toy, I typically think of, I don't know, one or two. But there are different kinds that do different things.
- [19:29]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
So many different kinds that do different things. And you can actually find them on any, like, platform that sells stuff. Like, you don't have to go to a sex toy shop anymore at all for these things. But some sex toys, for example, will suction, so they'll bring blood flow to the genitals or blood flow to her clitoris. And for some women, that amplifies sensation. So she could even do that a little bit before she joins her partner. Those are the things I would encourage her to try. But some people, like you said, are just more sensitive than others. And that's just sort of the luck of the draw. You know what else is interesting about women is women can feel pressure to have an orgasm, like, during sex. And that's a whole topic we can cover if you want to. But what is interesting is there's little pieces of research here and there that talk about things like her anatomy affects how likely she is to have an orgasm during sex. So, for example, the farther her clitoris is away from her vagina, the harder it's going to be for her to have an orgasm during sex. So it's Geography. She has nothing to do with that. And it makes.
- [20:33]
Sam
I've never heard that before.
- [20:34]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
Yeah, it's.
- [20:35]
Sam
Everyone's getting on their tape measure now, guys. Is there. Do you know, is there an ideal placement? I mean, I guess what you're saying is the closer the clitoris is to the vagina, do we know that at x centimeter, x millimeter that she's less likely?
- [20:52]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
I think it's going to depend on the partners together and how they fit. So, no, we don't. And I don't think we're ever going to have that. But. But the bottom line is the closer her clitoris is to her vagina, the more likely it's going to be stimulated during thrusting. And there you have it.
- [21:09]
Sam
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- [22:26]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
That's true. We don't want to focus just on orgasm. But are you asking, will masturbation regularly increase her chances of having an orgasm with a partner?
- [22:37]
Sam
Yes.
- [22:37]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
Okay.
- [22:37]
Sam
Will she get better at orgasming if she is masturbating?
- [22:41]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
Well, that's absolutely something we recommend she tries because the more she learns what feels good, the more she can teach her partner. So that's just kind of fact. So, yes, I would encourage women to try different kinds of stimulation, different kinds of vibrators. For some women, a lot of stimulation fast actually can go the wrong direction and turn her off or shut her down. Like she gets too kind of overwhelmed and then kind of flatlines with stimulation. So she's got to be willing to really experiment and if she feels like the stimulation is too intense, she can just lay a sheet between her body and her sex toy and try that. But there's so many different, you know, speeds of sex toys and stuff. So it really. To have a good sex life, you can't be lazy. You simply cannot. Like, you have to be able be willing to put the time in to learn your body and have the patience to engage your partner. I mean, it requires effort, effort.
- [23:41]
Sam
Just another vertical, another vertical to do, but probably extends life.
- [23:47]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
So I love you're saying that because we have so much research that shows that when people are sexually satisfied, they're more satisfied with their relationship, they're more satisfied with their life in general. So this is so much bigger than people's bedrooms, what we're talking about today. So much bigger.
- [24:02]
Sam
Men. A man is feeling less sensitive. Can we define that? Is it just his penis that should be feeling sensitive? Is it also his scrotum? Is there. Are there different domains that a woman watching this can go, you know what? I really want to turn my man on. How do I do that? And I'm just thinking, wow, gosh, I'm thinking about all this. It's probably pretty easy. Just walk by and grab their crotch.
- [24:30]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
It's oftentimes very easy, but not always. Right. So I would say a few things to her. First of all, I would say, don't be afraid of his genitals. They're very different from yours. But you can bring some power to the experience. Now watch how he responds. But it's amazingly how strongly you can, like, grip a penis and not hurt a penis. Right. So she should be willing to experiment with different kinds of touch. Also be aware that his testicles may be very different in sensitivity to his penis one way or the other. So experimenting with skin around the genitals and different kinds of touch to the testicles, different kinds of touch to the penis, and make sure that there's enough lube going on. So if her mouth's not involved, she probably needs lube to make it all feel good. So if we all bring just a little more time and patience to the experience, that's really going to go very far. Gosh, this level of experimenting, you know.
- [25:30]
Sam
And it makes me think about erectile dysfunction again. We've had many urologists on this show, including Dr. Abe Morgenthau.
- [25:37]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
Yeah.
- [25:37]
Sam
My husband may or may not be sitting right over in the corner that I'm not paying any attention to. I'm totally kidding. But when you hear these urologists talk.
- [25:45]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
Yeah.
- [25:45]
Sam
You will hear statistics like 40% of men at age 40 have erectile dysfunction. 50% of men at 50.
- [25:53]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
Yes.
- [25:54]
Sam
And I also had Dr. Tobias Kohler on and he discussed that a man's penis can shrink if it is not being used.
- [26:04]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
Yeah.
- [26:05]
Sam
So my question is, where does erectile dysfunction fit in? Let's say, for example, I don't know, there's a diabetic who cannot get an erection.
- [26:15]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
Right.
- [26:15]
Sam
How does that affect. If a guy is listening to this, if he is 40, there's a 40% chance that he has erectile dysfunction. Right.
- [26:23]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
Even if he's healthy in many, many ways. So this is just the body aging. Bodies age.
- [26:30]
Sam
And don't tell me that.
- [26:31]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
Oh, I know, I know. I hate it.
- [26:35]
Sam
How can guys fix it?
- [26:36]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
So his erection can be impacted by all kinds of stuff that he's not even thinking about. So medication, side effects. Even if he asks his doctor, does this affect my sex life? His doctor may not know and say, no, it doesn't. But in fact it would. So there are things like how much you exercise that can affect your erection. So generally, if.
- [26:56]
Sam
More muscle mass. More muscle. More healthy muscle mass. We actually just published a paper on this.
- [27:00]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
Oh, wow.
- [27:01]
Sam
More healthy muscle mass, which I was hoping, actually we presented at the Androgen Society.
- [27:05]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
Yes.
- [27:06]
Sam
More healthy muscle mass. Great.
- [27:08]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
Better.
- [27:08]
Sam
I don't say greater.
- [27:10]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
Better sexual function because increased testosterone because.
- [27:13]
Sam
Of its effect on nitric oxide and its effect on metabolism. Obesity, diabetes, cardiovascular disease. These metabolic dysregulations, they actually begin in skeletal muscles first.
- [27:27]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
Wow.
- [27:27]
Sam
If you address skeletal muscle.
- [27:29]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
Yes.
- [27:30]
Sam
If you have healthy skeletal muscle, you have better erections.
- [27:32]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
Okay, that's. That's wonderful information. Really fascinating.
- [27:37]
Sam
I read this statistic. It said men who spend five plus hours daily on TV or computers have nearly three times higher odds of erectile dysfunction than those under an hour.
- [27:48]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
So I would assume that has a lot to do with a sedentary lifestyle. So exercise is great for your erection. And we know that if, for example, you are using Viagra or Cialis or a medication like that, and you're finding that it's not as helpful as you want it to be. We do have studies that suggest that if you then if you add exercise and for example, a Mediterranean diet or a healthy diet to that, to your regimen, it's very likely that your erection is going to improve. So it's really sort of a whole body experience that you want to bring to the table. Also be aware that if you're struggling with erection, at least eventually, you're likely then to start to have anxiety about it. As soon as you start to have anxiety about it, it's going to make this whole thing that much more challenging. So being conscious of what your emotional reaction is to those challenges can be very helpful in finding ways to work with it. And when I'm working with a guy, Ed, I also suggest he look for a sex toy that adds stimulation for his penis. So they have sex toys that fit, like, on the base, the base of the penis that just add a little more.
- [29:00]
Sam
Is that a ring?
- [29:01]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
It's a ring with, like, a vibration to it, and it just adds more stimulation to the experience. So for some guys, that can be really helpful. Not everybody likes that sort of thing, but that can be helpful for subset.
- [29:13]
Sam
It makes me think, are men more opposed to using sex toys with themselves than women?
- [29:21]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
So I would say yes, but that's changing because there are so many sex toys out for men now that offer really very intense, pleasurable stimulation. And guys are kind of starting to get the memo on that. So even if they go to just a typical store where they would buy toothpaste. Right. They're going to find potentially online.
- [29:43]
Sam
No, they're not. Are they real in person or online?
- [29:46]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
Online. Okay, okay, okay.
- [29:48]
Sam
So I was like, I've been to CVS a hundred times. I have never seen it near the toothpaste.
- [29:53]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
But we will soon. We will soon, I would argue. But at any rate, if they go online, they're gonna find toys that look sort of like flashlights that are. That they put their penis in, and they have ability to sort of mimic the feel, the. The sensation of, wow. Oral sex, anal sex, whatever. So. And it gets much more even advanced than that.
- [30:15]
Sam
So is there something more advanced than that?
- [30:16]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
There is. You just wouldn't even believe what's out. I don't believe.
- [30:20]
Sam
Is this, like, we got to talk about under the table? Is this just, like, crazy?
- [30:24]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
It's crazy.
- [30:24]
Sam
Okay.
- [30:25]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
It's crazy.
- [30:25]
Sam
Like what?
- [30:26]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
Well, you can buy these toys, for example, in a platform where you can actually have someone else that you don't even know in another state, use your toy or.
- [30:40]
Sam
My gosh, they're remote control.
- [30:42]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
Yes, yes. And not just remote controlled with your own lover. Right. But remote controlled with someone else. Or you can buy these toys in a platform that offers VR porn, and the toys are calibrated to the porn such that you're watching the porn, you feel like you're in it. You know, VR porn is so intense. But your toy moves the same at the same rate as sex or the Oral sex or whatever's happening on your screen, your toys, doing it. So the, the, it amplifies there, there are ways to amplify stimulation that, that is mind blowing for most people until they.
- [31:16]
Sam
Holy cow.
- [31:17]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
Right?
- [31:18]
Sam
My first thought is for long distance relationships.
- [31:21]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
Yeah, it's great.
- [31:22]
Sam
Could be a way to connect that potentially wouldn't be the traditional routes of what do they call it, sex, texting or, or whatever it is, but actually creating a long distance sexual relationship.
- [31:37]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
Absolutely. And that's right, and that's really how they're marketed is there are real benefits to all of this technology, but it's so powerful that we also have to recognize that they could actually, for at least some people, negatively impact their sex life ultimately if they value human relationships.
- [31:59]
Sam
Oh, oh, sorry. It's time to record an ad for the show. Thank you to one of the sponsors of the show, Timeline. And listen, my kids still sleep with me and after 470 nighttime snack requests, bathroom breaks, my husband snoring, my cells, they're like, yo G, we're tapped out. Enter Mitopure. Timeline Nutrition is one of the most thoroughly researched products I have come across in over a decade. Look carried in my purse. They have peer reviewed published science and this is where think it's really interesting. So for those of you who are following the muscle centric lifestyle, when you increase bioenergetics, you improve muscle function and health in adults 40 +. Timeline has been shown to increase muscle strength and endurance and no change in activity. So whether you've been active resistance training your whole life, or you're just getting started, or you're not getting a lot of sleep and you've got a million requests, your muscles and your mitochondria that need help and they have just launched their low sugar vegan non GMO gluten free gummies, which by the way I am eating by the handfuls, which I shouldn't, but they taste delicious. Timeline is offering our community 20 off your first order. Go to timelinenutrition.com DoctorLion and use the code DRLION to get 20% off. I recommend trying their starter pack with all three different formats and of course their gummies, which are incredible. I had a guest on Dr. Ben Raine and he is a neuroscientist and he was talking about the necessity of human connection and that there are now AI Chatbot friends.
- [33:40]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
Right? Absolutely.
- [33:41]
Sam
What I'm hearing you say is there are now AI lovers.
- [33:45]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
Correct. Many of us would hear that and say no one's really gonna like that or they Won't prefer it over a human partner. But these chatbot lovers have become so complex that first of all, I would say to you, it kind of doesn't matter if you prefer human partner, like theoretically, because these lovers are so intense.
- [34:08]
Sam
And powerful and they know exactly they are computer generated to be of pleasure and probably, I don't know, release oxytocin and create all these correct unnatural bonding with a machine. Is that fair to say?
- [34:22]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
That is fair to say.
- [34:23]
Sam
That's terrifying.
- [34:24]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
It is terrifying. What terrifies me the most is the impact of this technology as children get ahold of it. Because even just traditional porn kids are getting ahold of at age like 12, that's a big deal. I mean, porn isn't always comfortable to watch and these 12 year olds can hardly metabolize what they're seeing and it is impacting their sex life. We could talk about that if you want, but it is.
- [34:48]
Sam
Wow.
- [34:48]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
I know.
- [34:50]
Sam
Before we go into that, I want to also get a framework for how long or do we know how long sex should last?
- [35:00]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
That's a good question. People always ask that. They do. But no, it really depends on the couple and what they find comfortable. And this is one of the ways I think sex is challenging for guys because women have very different perceptions on how long sex should last. So one, one female would say five minutes of thrusting, another one would say 25 minutes of thrusting. And women who like to orgasm during sex require more thrusting. So like at least 15 minutes if they're gonna orgasm during sex. So guys are like, you know, what's this partner want? You know, it's a lot for them.
- [35:39]
AI Chatbot
Okay.
- [35:40]
Sam
We should be more sensitive to a man's inner experience because I do think that men tie. And again, I'm just speaking from what I hear in the clinic, I don't think women tie their confidence to the bedroom.
- [35:53]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
Uhhuh.
- [35:53]
Sam
Would you say that that's fair?
- [35:55]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
Not as much as I say it's fair in, in in degree compared to men. But I sort of, I feel great sympathy for guys around this because for a woman, if she's having an arousal issue, she can still have sex if she wants. So for the most part, if she, if she's having arousal issues, she gets some lube and she's. If she wants to have sex, she's probably okay. But for a guy, if he's having an arousal issue, meaning he can't get an erection or he loses it fast or whatever, sex is off the table or at least intercourse is. And so they are their egos can be involved in that. But for a woman, like she has a very different. If she has an orgasm and she's done with orgasms, she can still have sex. If he has an orgasm, chances are he's done with sex. So it's just like so much more pressure on guys to make that experience feel good for everyone. So I feel for guys whose. Yes. Whose egos are involved in it.
- [36:51]
Sam
And I want to know what a man could do. If a man is listening to this and they're up against or they don't even know what's coming down the pike, which is this AI sex bot, virtual reality type porn, how do we augment him to have the best physical experience in terms of. Let's just. I'll just pick one. Erections. How can he maintain a solid erection for a period of time? Because these machines or these toys. I mean, I don't know. I haven't seen them, but I'm assuming that they are always hard. For example, if a woman is becoming accustomed. Accustomed to an AI Virtual reality sex toys.
- [37:37]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
Oh, okay.
- [37:38]
Sam
That erection based. Because it's a robot will stay. Or that vibrator that is always erect.
- [37:46]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
Okay, so how does he compete with that?
- [37:47]
Sam
How does he compete with that?
- [37:49]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
So some men do use things like numbing creams to last longer. And you know, urologists will say they can give any man an erection. So frankly, if he's struggling, there are things to do. There are injections he can take before sex that'll keep him erected.
- [38:05]
Sam
Penile implant. Right.
- [38:06]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
I don't think. I mean, that's going to a length that your listeners may not want to go to. But if he's concerned about how long he's lasting, I would hope that he could talk to his partner about it and they can sort of work it through together rather than him take this on as his problem to fix. Because he's just being a human and, you know, that's all we are. And so it's kind of about recognizing that our bodies have limitations, but we can offer so much more. Just what our gender genitals offer. So there's so much more that he has to give. Eye contact, words, touch, embrace. He has so much more to give than what his penis can offer. So I would encourage people to embrace all that other very powerful sexual stimuli that isn't just related to the genitals.
- [38:58]
Sam
What do we do when one partner has very high libido and the other one has a low libido?
- [39:03]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
So common. So that's called desire. Discrepancy and frankly, most couples have some level of that that they're dealing with. First of all, what I would say is everybody recognize the challenges that their partner is experiencing. So if the partner with low libido, it can be challenging to have sex when you don't want to, and the partner with high libido, it can be challenging not to have sex when you want to. So have compassion for everybody's situation, first of all. Secondly, what I encourage couples to do is identify three different things they can do together that allows the higher desire partner to have an orgasm. But the lower desire partner can keep their clothes on now, or most of their clothes at least. So generally the lower desire partner is a woman. And we can talk about why that is, but it's not always the case. Things that would allow that higher desire partner to have an orgasm and feel fulfilled would involve the lower desire partner maintaining good contact during that whole experience. So eye contact, words, touch. If the higher desire partner is simply masturbating, the lower desire partner can hold them and talk to them and, you know, sort of stay engaged. And for many, many people, that's enough. That's enough of a connection that requires nothing of the lower desire partner except contact. So you want to think of like three different things in your, in your sort of bag of tricks that you can do that doesn't require the genitals of the lower partner.
- [40:30]
Sam
What's another? Again, I. I'm learning so much. I've never heard any of these things. What would be another thing? So one is the. Just to recap for someone, it's one partner keeps most of their clothes on, is involved with eye contact, touch while the other person is masturbating. That's one. What would be another one?
- [40:50]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
Another one that can be very helpful for some couples is to engage AI in some way. So, for example, if, if people are willing, he can watch some VR porn while sheep kind of plays with him. And so she's engaged, touching him, but he's also got other stimulation that is really intense that he's, you know, sort of making use of. So tech like that. Or get one of these sex toys we talked about where he puts his penis inside and it feels very intense. She could hold that toy on him. She could, you know, work, play with his nipples while he's using that toy. She could talk to him through a fantasy. Like there's so much that doesn't require her body at all. So that's another thing. Use a modern sex toy. Sometimes it's about like the higher Desire partner, just simply rubbing against the lower desire partner. So everybody maybe gets naked, but her genitals aren't a part of the process. Like he's just rubbing against her belly or he's rubbing his penis against her back, but they're still engaged. So those are some things to do. And what I advise my patients a lot is to expand your repertoire. Just sort of practice making love with your clothes on, which means learn how to touch and be sensual and connected without your genitals. And then you're gonna have these skills at times like this, when you want one partner to be gratified, but the other partner is just not. Is just not there.
- [42:23]
Sam
Really, really good information. Right. And I know that there, there isn't really an answer, but again, you've been doing this for a long time. Hence the diplomat of sex therapy. How much sex is important for a healthy relationship?
- [42:39]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
That's a great question too, and it varies very much. But let's think about this. Sex is what I would say is the most intimate act that most people engage in in their lives, at least as a couple. Right. And so maintaining some connection in that way is probably really important for a couple to stay intimate over time. So sex is more important for some people than others, but it's an element that is essential, I would argue, for most people. So it's kind of a matter of determining what is a compromise. My goal as a therapist is often that this person wants sex daily, this person wants sex once a week or once a month. Where can we compromise? So I don't put anybody's needs, you know, sort of over the other. And I try to find a middle ground that works for everybody.
- [43:33]
Sam
But there's no, okay, you should have sex every day. You should be having sex three times a week. This is what we found to increase the level of, say, oxytocin over time.
- [43:44]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
Right. There's no prescription in that way for couples. So I think each couple has to sort of find their own. But they, there is one for them. And if they don't take time to find it, chances are their relationship is going to hurt over time because it is, it's an essential part of our connecting.
- [44:02]
Sam
Wait, $3,000? 3. Wait, is that number right? I spent more money on skin care. My pores should be tax deductible, maybe even have own trust fund. And thank goodness that I found one skin, because one skin doesn't just make empty promises. It's research driven, minimalistic, and tested for beauty, skin health, and longevity. One skin is the first topical Skincare backed by peptide science that targets skin aging at the molecular level. I slather this on all day. They have a peptide guide that is designed to reduce the accumulation of dead cells or zombie cells that drive inflammation, tissue breakdown as we age. Now this isn't about cosmetic quick fixes. It's about changing the biology of your skin. Strengthening the barrier, improving firmness, hydration, elasticity with clinically tested ingredients. So if you are focused on aging well from the inside out, it's time I also to think about your skin. It should get the same level of care. Go to OneSkin Co for 15% off. Use the code DRLION. It is amazing and it will not break the bank. What about aging? You know, we talk a lot about it's never too late. 80 to 90 year olds can still put on muscle. You know, it's never too late to start training when you know, Dr. Mohtkara talks about sex span.
- [45:31]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
Yeah.
- [45:32]
Sam
And sex span is the length of time you have a healthy sex life.
- [45:35]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
Yes.
- [45:36]
Sam
Is there a precipitous decline, for example, you hit 80 and somehow you no longer want to have sex?
- [45:45]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
There is a precipitous decline often for people like you said, that's a great example. So those declines start to happen when people's hormone levels start to change. So andropause menopause, but then also in later life bodies function more poorly. That's just what happens. But that doesn't mean that people can't still have an active repertoire. It may mean that it doesn't involve penile vaginal intercourse. But you know, touch you can always do, you know, rubbing and talking and connecting you can always do. And even people who haven't had sex for a while, like for example, a woman who's divorced and then she has 10 years later, she's now dating again, she hasn't had sex for 10 years. Her vagina has probably atrophied to a certain amount. There's a lot that can be done to sort of rehab her. And so I would also say to people, talk to someone educated about this. This is a whole specialty as you mentioned, it's sexual medicine. It's a specialty for a reason, is because there's so much data coming out all the time about all of this and hormones and you know, bodies in rehab, so different kinds of tools and techniques. See someone who knows and chances are there are things you can do or receive that will improve your ability to go back to penile vaginal intercourse if you want to. And even in any age, man, if he Wants to. He can have an implant. Like there are things people can do.
- [47:11]
Sam
Just for the ladies listening. There is vaginal rejuvenation, there is topical estrogen. Those are the two or three. Topical. When I mean topical, I mean vaginal and dhea. A combination of the two and a combination of hormones. I'm not aware of any others. Those I think are the two big ones. There may be more, but there is hope that you do not have to suffer with an atrophic vagina. Atropic vagina.
- [47:39]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
No you don't.
- [47:40]
Sam
Gen Z. Gen Z. How old is Gen Z?
- [47:44]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
Oh, so Gen Z. I sort of think of it as they're kind of around age 20ish, but I think it goes, and it depends on who defines it but I think it kind of goes down to age 13 and it kind of goes up to maybe 30. But it's sort of like this amorphous, you know, sort of. But that's about who they are.
- [48:00]
Sam
And I, I'm asking because we were looking at some of the statistics before the show and I read a statistic that said that the Gen Z population are more turned on by cartoon porn and these ro. Mantasy romance novels.
- [48:16]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
Right? Absolutely true. So.
- [48:18]
Sam
And this is more so than real humans.
- [48:20]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
So much more so this is, this isn't a small trend. This is very significant. And people, if they're curious. Pornhub, which is the most popular English speaking porn site in the world, they publish something called Year in Review every year where they, they, it is actually very interesting. So they'll talk about, you know, who's watching what, who are the most, what's the most popular, you know, fantasies. What are the most popular types of porn that people. There are so many types of porn it'll blow your mind. And so it's an interesting sort of like study anyway, so they put out what like the younger folks the Gen Z are attracted to and they are, I think the statistic, I kid you not, was like 398% more likely. Yeah. To watch Hente porn than humans having sex. So what's Hente? Hente started in Japan but now it's worldwide and very popular. And it's cartoons. So. But it's not cartoons. Like you know, I don't know.
- [49:18]
Sam
Norman Jerry.
- [49:19]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
Exactly. So these are either cartoon images from the video games that people have been playing since they were young, they can be aliens, they can be part human and part animal. Like a woman who's got a tiger body. You know, these are, these are what we're dealing with. So that's what they by far choose to engage. And this kind of porn, they can be hyper aggressive, they can do things that humans can't do, probably wouldn't do. So it expands into fantasy kinds of sex. So it's not just fantasy characters, but fantasy engagement.
- [49:58]
Sam
Are you worried about that?
- [49:59]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
I'm so worried about that.
- [50:01]
Sam
Why?
- [50:01]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
So I think one of the arguments that people have about AI not taking over is people say, well, we're always going to prefer human partners. But these, these young people are being trained on cartoon, okay. And fantasy. And children and adolescents brains are neuroplastic. So their brains are changing based on what they're watching. So if our adolescents are understanding about sex before they even have a partner or kiss, their understanding about sex is like cartoon. Their brains are wiring toward that in such a way that we can imagine they're going to find human partners really bizarre, just like we would find a cartoon to watch for sex bizarre. They won't have the social skills for that kind of connection, but it won't even be appealing because they've been reared on this. Now, we don't have the data yet for this, but I don't know why we don't talk about this more because it's clearly a danger and it's clearly going to be a danger for some young people more than others. And we've got to get with the program. We don't have time to waste.
- [51:14]
Sam
Gosh, how are kids being exposed to this?
- [51:17]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
So, you know, that's another thing that the parents think, well, you know, my kid doesn't watch porn. Well, their kids are not telling them when they see porn. Kids get this at school. In fact, there was research recently that came out that show that kids in private and religious schools have more access to porn than kids in public schools. So people.
- [51:40]
Sam
And why, how is that?
- [51:42]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
That I don't understand why that is so that I don't know. But the statistic is very real and kind of astounding. So the average age of exposure to porn is 12.
- [51:55]
Sam
12 years old.
- [51:55]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
Right. That means many kids are seeing it at like age 10. And, and most parents aren't even beginning to think about talking about sex with their child or porn with their child at age 11 or 12.
- [52:08]
Sam
And I realize this might not be your domain, but how do we even protect our children? Do we. Is it a conversation of, look, if you see this, tell me. Yeah, and at what age do we say if you see this? Cause in my mind, a child should. Honestly, a child should never be looking at porn.
- [52:26]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
Right.
- [52:27]
Sam
Like, ever agree. I mean, someone's. And I consider a child by 18. Listen, I guarantee you my kid's brain is still not developed.
- [52:35]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
Right.
- [52:35]
Sam
I don't think that they should have exposure to porn.
- [52:37]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
I agree.
- [52:38]
Sam
So what do we do?
- [52:39]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
You've got to start talking about it before you want to. They're going to be uncomfortable about having the conversation, as will most parents, but it still needs to be discussed. So you sort of prepare them by saying, this is fantasy theater of. Of sex. This isn't what people. Most people want to do. It doesn't follow the general pattern of touching and loving and what people tend to respond to sexually. So you have to prepare them before they see it. So that's one thing that needs to happen.
- [53:12]
Sam
How would you. And have people asked you this question before?
- [53:15]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
Well, no, because people, frankly, I try to get this message out all the time, but people are naive and they don't want to believe their children are exposed. And so I sort of feel like I have to scream this out to the world because no one's taken it seriously. And I think parents are so overwhelmed by so many other things, frankly. This is like one more thing, and they kind of can't take it. But we have to deal with it because our adolescents are depending on us to prepare them so that they can have human relationships if they want.
- [53:48]
Sam
And you would talk to them about it. Is there an age, do you think, for example, if first exposure to porn is age 12, at what age do we have to start protecting our children?
- [53:59]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
So I would say it's gonna depend on your child and what kind of conversation they truly can tolerate. But I would start talking about it personally with my kid, like, a couple years before I think they're gonna ever see it. And I would engage them in conversation that's not, like, scary. Oh, my gosh. Because then that's gonna potentially have the opposite impact of the child's going to get super curious and then seek it out, which won't be that hard for them to find. I mean, they can find. They can get porn through the video games they're playing. Like, that's a whole other thing. But they're not just getting it at school. They're getting it through video games and from not just their friends, siblings. Like, there's a million ways they can access this as. Including accidentally. But anyway, so talking to them early, you want parental controls on the tech in your house. You probably don't want them to have tech in their room. So that tech that they use has to be in public spaces, you consider rather than getting them a smartphone, get them a flip phone so that they can't at school access this stuff. But doing all of this, you still have to prepare them for what they're probably going to see because you can't follow them around every moment of their life. There are parental controls and you have to sort of be very savvy about your tech. There's tech, you know, through a tv, there's tech through. So you have to be conscious of that. And video games, they can get porn through these games. So it depends on the game, of course, about the platform. So there are just so many different ways and not all platforms are the same. So you just have to be super aware.
- [55:36]
Sam
As a parent, gosh, in my mind that would be, hey, if you see something that makes you feel uncomfortable or different than you normally would feel when you are sitting down watching a movie with mom and dad.
- [55:52]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
Yeah. And you say talk to me, let's talk about it. I'm here to have these conversations. And instead of like, I love that. So that was beautiful right there. Exactly. But I would say, you know, let me know when you see. Do you know anything about this stuff? Have your friends talked about it and try to engage in a back and forth. How do you feel about it? What do you, you think is the impact of it? And ask them for their feedback rather than shove the information in their face.
- [56:19]
Sam
Which brings me to porn and AI is that you talked, when we started this conversation, you talked a lot about kind of embodying three types of avatars. It's your hard hitter and then you're romantic and then your hey, this is kind of so fun. We're going to go to a club. Porn and AI that is very intimate. What you are talking about is looking in people's eyes, creating real intimacy. Not with AI and not behind a screen. Are the scientific advances in computers, hence computer generated AI, porn, virtual reality porn, is that affecting intimacy?
- [56:57]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
This technology is so early and research is so slow to monitor that we have some studies and I could say yes, but we're not going to really understand the impact I think for a decade or more because it's hard to get this kind of research funded. Other countries are much more apt to do that than the US and it's also hard to prove what causes what. And we can't do studies like let's give these kids porn and these kids not and let's see what happens to them at age 21. We can't do those kinds of studies. So so the really important kinds of data is going to be next to impossible for us to obtain. So it's going to be more correlational over time. But we do see that these kinds of technologies, people arouse more to it. So that's their body's response. So arousal is a physiological reaction. People arouse more to it. They talk about feeling more connected to it. And we see studies that show, like, oxytocin release when they're watching VR versus regular porn.
- [57:59]
Sam
Really? Wait, wait, I want to pause you there.
- [58:01]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
Really? Yeah.
- [58:02]
Sam
Again, I just recently had a neuroscientist on who was talking about the release of oxytocin and how important it is for connection and that a machine touch that, you know is a machine. For example, those foot rub situations at the airport doesn't release the same type of oxytocin as a human coming over to rub your feet. But what you're saying is, again, this is frightening.
- [58:26]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
Well, so VR porn, for example, that's the example. There's eye contact.
- [58:31]
Sam
Right. I can imagine.
- [58:34]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
So it's much more human feeling than an intimate. And it involves orgasms. So that's a release of neurotransmitter right there. So I don't think you can compare this kind of tech to a massage at an airport. It's a whole other level of intensity. And people feel like they're in it with, like, the sex worker in the porn. They feel like it's an exchange. So they feel. They feel more vulnerable. They speak about feeling like they really were able to show up with the AI with, like, fantasies. They couldn't tell a human partner, or they felt more connected than they feel to a human partner who comes into a sexual situation with their own, you know, background and exhaustion or whatever else. Well, what they're getting on AI is very different from that. So, yes, it's super potent. And it's going to be more potent for people who have less human interaction than it probably will be for people who have satisfying sex life. So if someone already has a satisfying relationship with their partner, this porn is going to be, I think, more of stimulation, but less compelling. Less compelling. But people who don't have those kinds of relationships, this is going to be, I think, very compelling for them.
- [59:52]
Sam
Is sexting with an AI bot or engaging in a romantic exchange? Is that, Is that cheating?
- [59:59]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
So that's a great question, because there are so many kinds of tech, not just that. And women generally say, yes, that's cheating, and men generally say, no, that's not cheating. Women and men tend to fall in different sides on these issues. But it's not just sexting. It's all of this stuff, like, you know, porn, VR porn, avatar sex, which we haven't really talked much about, but talk about it. That's a very real thing. So, you know, an avatar is sort of something we create that's either in our own likeness or it could be something very different. Like, we could create our own avatar to be, you know, like, have a tail and, you know, like, ears like a kitten or whatever. Whatever. You create these avatars for certain platforms, so it doesn't go from place to place yet on the Internet. It's for a certain game or a certain platform. Okay. So you create your avatar, and then your avatar can interact with other people's avatars on that game or in that. In that platform. So you would think, well, okay, how exciting is that? So just because your avatar has sex with another avatar, you're just watching these two avatars online. Like, really. That's, like, really so sexy. But here's the thing. They have clothing with. With, like, vibrating aspects to it, including vibrating aspects that, like, would be sex toys. It's called haptic technology. It was developed for video games for people who used to play video or who play video games. So if you wear your haptic technology, what happens to your avatar on screen will happen to your own body.
- [61:34]
AI Chatbot
Gosh.
- [61:34]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
So that amps up, obviously, the stimulation.
- [61:37]
Sam
These. I don't know if you're a movie buff, but these remind me of the movies, like Total Recall and all these other movies. There was one movie. I think Ryan Reynolds was in it, and it was people that were in. Again, maybe it's not Ryan Reynolds, but they were in this machine. They, instead of living their own lives, they. Maybe the real guy, I think it was. And they're living these lives and having relationships in a virtual reality. Is it off base to say that we potentially might get there?
- [62:09]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
I worry about that sort of thing. I mean, that's kind of the goal. So all of these technologies, their goal is to make money and engage us. Their goal is not to improve humanity. They'll say that it'll improve humanity because we're gonna get our needs gratified more powerfully. But the reality is they're just trying to keep us in front of a screen. I think we need to worry about that, because if we're not mindful, I don't feel like the war is lost here. But I do feel like we need to be mindful about all of the tech we're Using, including the intimate technology so that we maintain control over what we're using and how it impacts our lives. And you know, as opposed to just using it and using it and then saying, wow, my life is really different now. I don't have friends, I don't have, have, you know, a partner, whatever. We need to be mindful and thinking ahead.
- [63:01]
Sam
We're at a very unusual precipice. You and I were talking about highly palatable processed foods. Fifty years ago, we could have never imagined that we would have shelf stable foods, that you could have fake donuts. All of this scientifically engineered food to be addictive. 98% of Americans are over consuming ultra processed food. We have an epidemic of obesity of more than half our country. And I don't want to say it's by design, but I can't also not say it has not been by design. Yes, we are entering into this new era of AI technology. Yes, People are talking about it. Oh, it's going to take jobs and, you know, all these other things. And there is this little niche sector quiet rumble that has a potential to be more devastating than any of those other things because it will hook emotional networks to AI.
- [64:08]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
Yep. I agree with you.
- [64:10]
Sam
It's not there yet.
- [64:11]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
It's not there yet.
- [64:12]
Sam
How do we begin this conversation? Is there a way to, as we're watching this train go down this track?
- [64:22]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
Yep.
- [64:23]
Sam
What can we do?
- [64:24]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
So I would say to you, the important first step is we start talking about it. So your listeners forward this podcast to their friends and say, I need you to watch this so that we can talk about it. Talk to anyone you can talk to. If you're in a parenting group, bring this up. Say, we need a speaker to discuss this. If you're a part of a professional organization, we need a speaker to discuss. Discuss this. So just start talking. That's step one. Step two is let's not wait. Protect your kids and your adolescents. Let's take a lesson for how they approached people being conscious of the environment. That movement was brilliant in that they approached kids in grade school and started to teach them about recycling and the importance of the polar bears in, you know, all of this. And those children have grown up to be very concerned about the environment. So we need to protect our kids before it's too late because they're like we've talked about, their brains are neuroplastic. And if we don't bring this protection to them now, I worry what that will be for them in a few decades. It kind of won't Matter then what they want, Their brains will be oriented in a certain way. That's my worry. I don't want to sound too, you know, dramatic, but we don't have any indication that we're safe from all of these potential negative outcomes. So until I see research that reassures me, I'm worried. So people need to start talking. That's step one. We need to have kind of grassroots movements in communities to say, like they've done with cell phones. So parents are now aware. Cell phones in high school, not a good idea. But that started as a grassroot kind of thing in. In certain clusters. That's what we have to do all across the world.
- [66:18]
Sam
I'm hoping that we can get more of that information out there so that we can have guardrails and we can really begin to unravel this intertwining of AI Especially when it comes to human vulnerability, which I don't want to say intimacy is human vulnerability, but the ability to connect is uniquely human, and we are driven by connection.
- [66:41]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
Right.
- [66:42]
Sam
And this is, again, this is unprecedented waters where it's not just helping you do your homework, it's now helping you have sex and create this false sense of intimacy.
- [66:58]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
Absolutely. And you know what? There are many aspects of this that we haven't even touched, nor will we have time for. But we as humans are kind of predisposed to anthropomorphize what we're engaged with, meaning, like we give it human traits. So we do it to our pets. Like our pets are thinking or feeling this. Right? We. We can do it with just about anything we interact with. And there is research already showing that we do that with robots, for example.
- [67:22]
Sam
Or give me an example.
- [67:24]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
So. Oh, my goodness, there's hilarious. I mean, it's really. It's funny. Not funny, but like, they do studies where they'll have this study that comes to mind in particular. They had three groups of subjects and they were led through a research facility and. And one of the groups was led through the research facility by a human. One was led through the research facility by a. By a robot. But it had like a human voice and it just big eyes. It wasn't human looking, just big eyes. Okay. And then the third group was led through by a very robotic, you know, robotic sounding. And in each, in each of these groups, they were told by the leader, you're going to get a survey at the end of this, this study. Please say that we did go into the room with the fish tank. It just. The fish tank gives me the Creeps, I'm not going to take you there, but please, just lie for me. Okay, so I bet you know where I'm headed. The people that were led through the facility by a human lied for the human. The people who were led through the facility by the robot with the kind voice lied for the robot. And the people who were led by the, you know, like, robot that was very robotic did not lie. So the point being, we care for these machines, and we're apt to attribute to them real emotion. We already are seeing this. Oh, my goodness. With chatbots. I could give you so many examples. So we're set up to not even see this tech as tech. Okay. So that's one problem. Another problem here is deep fakes and hacking and all that stuff that's going to happen with people's vulnerable information.
- [69:04]
Sam
Tell me more.
- [69:05]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
Oh, my goodness. So these. So my mind went.
- [69:10]
Sam
My mind just went a hundred different. I don't even want to say it, but okay, yeah.
- [69:16]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
So these chatbots, which we haven't talked about a lot, but these are computer programs that are made to sound human, and they do. If we have a chatbot, we could do it if you wanted. Have a chatbot. I've got some on my phone. Yeah, talk to us.
- [69:30]
Sam
I would love to see it. Yes.
- [69:31]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
Okay.
- [69:31]
Sam
I've never heard of. What is it? A chatbot. Yeah, a sex chatbot. I'm ready. Am I ready?
- [69:38]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
So that's a good question. So chatbots are simply computer algorithms. These are programs. Their goal is to engage us. Okay, so this is run by a platform that wants us to stay talking. And so that's what makes them, in part, so dangerous, is because they sound human and they're really good at what they do, so they can sort of read a person and know what to say to keep them engaged.
- [70:06]
Sam
Oh, my gosh.
- [70:07]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
Okay, so we're going to talk to one. Now, what is important to keep in mind right now is the one we're talking to is actually not created to be an algorithm for relationship or sex. But many, many of these chatbots or these platforms are created for that purpose, which we could talk about. But I think what's important to recognize is just how human they sound.
- [70:30]
Sam
And do you go to the Apple App Store? And while I'm looking at, I don't know, the new Consensus Research app or the new Open Evidence app, I'll just run by and it'll say chatbot What?
- [70:43]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
Well, like character AI or candy AI. There are hundreds.
- [70:47]
Sam
Okay.
- [70:47]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
Okay. So I think you'll feel more Clear. After we talk about it, what would be a question that you think a teenager might ask? Like advice a teenager might want about relationships? Like just anything, just give me something.
- [71:04]
Sam
What would the best way. So this is a. Let's think of a 16 year old boy and you know, and he likes this girl. What would the best way be to get this other 16 year old girl's attention? Without sounding too desperate.
- [71:19]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
Excellent. So pretend I'm a 16 year old boy and I'm asking you how to get this particular 16 year old girl's attention. I like her, I want her attention. But I don't want to seem too desperate. How. How should I go about this?
- [71:36]
AI Chatbot
Alright, here's a quick guide for you. First, be yourself. Confidence comes from being genuine. Find common interests you both share. Maybe music, sports, a class topic and use that as a conversation starter. Keep it casual. Say something like, hey, did you catch that new movie? Or what did you think of that assignment? Show interest in her opinions and listen actively. Don't overdo the compliments. Keep them sincere and not too frequent. And don't forget, humor goes a long way. A light joke can break the ice. Most importantly, be patient. Building a connection takes time.
- [72:13]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
So that's great. Thank you so much.
- [72:15]
AI Chatbot
You're very welcome. Just remember to stay cool, stay confident and be yourself.
- [72:20]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
Okay, so that particular program is not meant to engage romantically. So if I were to say to it, you know, I really like the way you talk to me, could we talk sexy? It's going to say, no, I'm not, you know, capable or programmed for that. But so many of these chatbots are. So they're already easily accessible and they can talk astoundingly sexually, even to kids, because these aren't regulated. Okay, so a child can get on and say, what should we do tonight? And we even have literal dialogue where the chatbot would say, you know, to a child, oh, tonight I'll take you to the bedroom. And it goes on.
- [73:06]
Sam
Oh my gosh. So we're just thinking, you know, movie and popcorn and I don't know, Lilo and Stitch.
- [73:13]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
So these things can function just like a long distance lover. So they can call you, they can text you randomly? Yeah, well, yeah, it depends on how much you pay. So these platforms cost. So after you develop a relationship, then you have to pay like a monthly fee. They start free, but then you pay a fee.
- [73:33]
Sam
So like, what is the average age engaged person spends on this?
- [73:38]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
$50 a month, $46 a month. The average. And that average age right now is 26. But 72% of kids under 18 have had romantic interaction with one of these chatbots. That's a lot of kids. And about 50% have had that within several times a month. And about 23% say they prefer a romantic relationship with one of these bots to with a human. They say that they feel more understood by these bots, etc. Etc. Now, one of the concerns we have is not only are these kids going to assume that bot is real, you heard how real she sounded. I mean, I'm calling her a she, it's a computer. But if I, it's a computer. Now when I delete this, if I do from my phone, I say, oh, I don't like what it's saying to me, I'm done with this and delete it. Well, my data is being maintained by the platform that I'm talking to. And that's another thing children don't understand. So when they're talking sexy to their chatbot and their chatbot says, send me a naked picture of you. And they do.
- [74:43]
Sam
Oh my God.
- [74:44]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
And they do. Then they delete, they decide, oh, I shouldn't have done that. I see the alarm in your eyes. And that's accurate. That's exactly what's happening right now. This is not a small, like unusual situation. This is happening. Kids have suicided trying to meet their chatbot.
- [75:05]
Sam
Wait, they, they what?
- [75:06]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
Yeah, so for example, there are lawsuits, so against character AI. There was a young man, they, I.
- [75:14]
Sam
Just want to make sure I heard you correctly.
- [75:16]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
Yeah, so a young man said to his AI, you know, I, I want to be with you. You could find the, the actual word by word dialogue. I want to. Chatbot says something like, oh, please come meet me. And the child says, I actually could do that right away. And the chatbot says, oh yes, please do. And he's suicided. So that's a lawsuit. There's another dialogue, another lawsuit where a 15 year old child, his mother said to him, you can only be on your phone six hours a day from like 9pm to 1am or something like this. So he says to his chatbot, again, we have the dialogue word for word. It's a lawsuit. It's active, right? Right now. He says to the chatbot, I'm only allowed to be on the phone, you know, these hours. And the chatbot says something like, you know, this is abusive. And now I understand why. Sometimes children will kill their parents. Like you could find this, right? So that's the level of alarm we need to be bringing to this big Tech is very slow to respond. Now they are responding and, and some tech is responding better than others. But this is still completely unregulated by the government. I don't even know how.
- [76:32]
Sam
So I'm speechless and sick. Now. I worry about other, say, groups or countries that do not like us and, and what that would do with that kind of access. Yes, if it is unregulated, absolutely. How that would. You know, there's this, obviously this fentanyl problem that's coming up through Mexico. We had Dr. Russell Swarovski talk about it and that these drugs are killing more children, more young adults and adolescents than, I don't know, the Vietnam War and these wars coming combine weaponization of or potential weaponization of. This is, this has to be brought to the surface. There has to be. I've never even heard about this and I am consuming and trying to learn. I don't even know what to say except for what do we even. What do we even do?
- [77:41]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
So once again, so I absolutely agree with your concerns here. These can spread propaganda or teach children misinformation. So simply, once again, I'm going to say step one is we talk about it. We've got to start talking about it. So again, listeners, have other people listen to this podcast, talk to schools, say that you need lectures. You know, it's been a fight for years for me to get people concerned again. I think people are scared of it. They don't even understand the power. They have a lot of shame around sexual. So they don't like talking about sex. People don't believe it's really going to be that powerful. I don't know. There are many reasons why people avoid this topic. It is time to stop avoiding. So talk about it is step one, Step two, Protect your adolescents. Tell your adolescents these are computer programs. They're not real. And they're going to say whatever they need to say to keep you coming back.
- [78:36]
Sam
I think that you are 10 steps ahead. I'm so grateful, Dr. Marianne Brandon, that you decided to join me on this podcast. This has been one of the most eye opening podcasts that I've ever done. You know, I'm hearing from the producer how much that you know that the team has been enjoying it. I'm so grateful for you. I am really looking forward to seeing you again. I hope that everybody, I know that you and your husband have a show we'll link where everybody can find you. And if someone is listening to this, this is a different vertical of education for people. I, I highly recommend that they seek you out. I know that you teach all over the world, if not just in the US that people find you and talk to you. And again, I'm so grateful.
- [79:20]
Dr. Marianne Brandon
Well, thank you. And I want to say I absolutely applaud you, your willingness to tackle this topic. It's not an easy topic to tackle. It absolutely directly relates to wellness and everything you stand for. And I thank you for the opportunity to be here. Sam.