Steroids & Testosterone: The Science Behind Anabolic Therapies | Nelson Vergel

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Dr. Gabrielle Lyon Show – "Steroids & Testosterone: The Science Behind Anabolic Therapies | Nelson Vergel"

Release Date: March 18, 2025

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Introduction

In this compelling episode of The Dr. Gabrielle Lyon Show, host Dr. Gabrielle Lyon welcomes Nelson Virgil, a pioneering voice in hormone optimization. Virgil shares his extraordinary journey from an HIV diagnosis in the 1980s to becoming a leading advocate for anabolic therapies that have transformed countless lives. This episode delves deep into the misunderstood world of testosterone, steroids, and hormone optimization, exploring their roles beyond bodybuilding and addressing the stigmas that have long surrounded these therapies.

Nelson Virgil's Journey: From HIV Diagnosis to Hormone Optimization

[00:00] Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:
"From an HIV diagnosis in the 1980s to becoming one of the world's leading..."

Nelson Virgil begins by recounting his harrowing experience of being diagnosed with HIV at the age of 24 during a time when treatment options were virtually nonexistent. He describes the despair of witnessing friends succumb to wasting syndrome and Kaposi sarcoma, highlighting the urgent need for effective treatments.

[02:23] Nelson Virgil:
"Most people would drop within a year of being told that they're HIV positive. And most people would die of wasting syndrome..."

The Devastation of HIV in the 1980s

Virgil paints a vivid picture of the mid-1980s HIV landscape, emphasizing the lack of awareness and treatment. He shares his personal anguish over losing loved ones and the pervasive fear within the community.

[06:34] Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:
"People are forgetting about it now."

Discovery and Implementation of Anabolic Steroids as a Lifesaving Therapy

Against this bleak backdrop, Virgil narrates how his transfer to Los Angeles introduced him to bodybuilding culture, where individuals were using anabolic steroids to counteract the debilitating effects of HIV. This revelation became a turning point in his life, inspiring him to explore and advocate for the use of steroids to regain muscle mass, strength, and overall quality of life.

[08:51] Nelson Virgil:
"Bodybuilding saved my life. Bodybuilders saved my life."

Establishment of the Houston Buyers Club

Virgil discusses the formation of the Houston Buyers Club, a pivotal initiative aimed at sourcing and providing anabolic agents to HIV-positive individuals. This club was instrumental in importing steroids from countries like Mexico and Israel, offering a lifeline to many suffering from muscle wasting.

[27:20] Nelson Virgil:
"The Houston Buyers Club was. We were looking for treatments for HIV. There was nothing."

Stigma and Legal Challenges Surrounding Anabolic Steroid Use

A significant portion of the conversation addresses the stigma attached to anabolic steroid use, exacerbated by the Anabolic Steroid Control Act enacted to combat their misuse in sports. Virgil explains how this legislation hindered research and access to steroids for medical purposes, deepening the misconceptions about their safety and effectiveness.

[35:01] Nelson Virgil:
"They were sold as causing aggressiveness, which is how they sold the Anabolic Steroid Control Act."

Anabolic Agents Explored: Nandrolone, Oxandrolone, and Testosterone

Virgil provides an in-depth analysis of various anabolic agents:

• Nandrolone: An injectable anabolic steroid praised for its efficacy in increasing lean body mass without significant liver toxicity. Virgil emphasizes its safety when used in appropriate doses and in conjunction with testosterone to prevent hormonal imbalances.

  [40:42] Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:
  "Typically, nandrolone is given at 50% the dose of testosterone or less."

• Oxandrolone: An oral anabolic agent with a higher anabolic-to-androgenic ratio, making it suitable for both men and women. It is highlighted for its role in treating unintentional weight loss and muscle wasting.

  [60:57] Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:
  "At Low dose oxandrolone is taken orally, had a little issue in 2023. Still available."

• Testosterone: Discussed as a foundational hormone that supports overall health, mood, and muscle mass. Virgil clarifies that while testosterone is often misconstrued as purely androgenic, its proper use can have numerous health benefits.

Hormones and Health: Debunking Myths

Virgil tackles common misconceptions about hormone therapies, such as the belief that anabolic agents cause aggression, liver damage, or increase cancer risks. He elucidates the physiological roles of hormones like estrogen in both men and women, arguing that balanced hormone levels are crucial for overall well-being.

[46:32] Nelson Virgil:
"These are modified molecules for decreasing metabolism in the liver and for improving anabolic efficiency effects."

Impact on Lipids and Liver Function

A critical discussion point revolves around the effects of anabolic agents on lipid profiles and liver enzymes. Virgil explains that while anabolic steroids can decrease HDL (the "good" cholesterol) and affect liver enzymes, these changes may not significantly impact overall cardiovascular risk. He advocates for comprehensive monitoring, including tests like cystatin C for kidney function and advanced liver function tests beyond standard AST and ALT levels.

[66:52] Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:
"Is it meaningful that it would be?"

Advocacy for Access and Future of Anabolic Therapies

Virgil expresses concern over potential future restrictions on compounded hormonal treatments due to legislative and regulatory pressures. He underscores the importance of accessibility to these therapies for individuals struggling with muscle wasting and other catabolic conditions.

[93:47] Nelson Virgil:
"Access to hormone treatments, affordable home hormone treatments, may be affected by decisions from legislators."

Conclusion: Championing Body Autonomy and Informed Medical Guidance

Dr. Lyon emphasizes the importance of body autonomy and the necessity of undergoing hormone therapies under the supervision of trusted healthcare providers. She urges listeners to explore the literature, seek knowledgeable physicians, and remain informed about the benefits and risks associated with anabolic therapies.

[78:43] Nelson Virgil:
"Yes. And I see it coming. I also see more infringement of the FDA and other regulatory agencies on access, compounding, access of compounded products."

[93:17] Dr. Gabrielle Lyon:
"If you are listening to this and you're thinking, you know what? I have been struggling with...? Please do not go online and try to purchase something on your own without the guidance of a physician."

Notable Quotes

• Nelson Virgil at [02:25]:
  "Most people would drop within a year of being told that they're HIV positive. And most people would die of wasting syndrome."

• Dr. Gabrielle Lyon at [12:54]:
  "We're talking about off label. Yeah, off label is actually clinical use."

• Nelson Virgil at [35:02]:
  "They said testosterone and anabolics are bad for lipids because there's a decrease in HDL, but there's also a huge decrease in triglycerides."

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Key Takeaways

1. Historical Impact of Anabolic Therapies: Anabolic steroids played a crucial role in extending the lives of HIV-positive individuals by combating muscle wasting and improving overall health.

2. Stigma and Legislation: The Anabolic Steroid Control Act and societal stigmas have significantly hindered research and medical use of anabolic agents, limiting their potential benefits.

3. Medical Uses Beyond Bodybuilding: Agents like Nandrolone and Oxandrolone have legitimate medical applications in treating conditions characterized by muscle loss, such as sarcopenia, cancer-related wasting, and severe chronic illnesses.

4. Importance of Informed Use and Monitoring: Proper medical supervision is essential when using anabolic therapies to balance benefits with potential risks, ensuring safe and effective treatment.

5. Advocacy for Accessibility: There is a pressing need to advocate for continued access to hormone optimization therapies to address emerging health challenges related to muscle loss and aging.

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Further Resources

• Nelson Virgil's Forums:
  For those interested in deeper insights and community discussions, Nelson oversees extensive forums discussing hormone optimization and anabolic therapies.

• Dr. Gabrielle Lyon’s Clinic:
  Individuals seeking guidance and professional supervision for hormone therapies are encouraged to contact Dr. Lyon’s concierge medical practice.

• Educational Articles and Studies:
  Guests are encouraged to review published research on agents like Nandrolone and Oxandrolone to better understand their medical applications and safety profiles.

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This summary encapsulates the depth and breadth of the conversation between Dr. Gabrielle Lyon and Nelson Virgil, providing listeners with a comprehensive understanding of anabolic therapies and their transformative potential in medical science.

Transcript

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

From an HIV diagnosis in the 1980s to becoming one of the world's leading.

[Nelson Virgil]

Voices in hormone optimization, today's guest has spent his life defying the odds and changing the conversation about health. Nelson Virgil was once told he wouldn't live past 30. Now, in his 60s, he's thriving, thanks in part to testosterone and anabolic therapies.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

That have helped him and countless others.

[Nelson Virgil]

Regain strength, energy and quality of life.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

Today, we uncover the misunderstood world of.

[Nelson Virgil]

Testosterone, steroids and hormone optimization. How can these therapies help people beyond bodybuilding? Or are they truly dangerous or just stigmatized? Let's find out. I just wanted to jump on here with an exciting announcement. I am hosting the second ever Forever Strong Summit, April 26th, 27th, in Houston, Texas. 2025. There's going to be two days, the VIP day. On April 26th. You will learn from former Navy Seals, from former Secret Service, from individuals that you do not want to miss. Myself, my inner tribe will be there to support you, to learn everything from, from muscle health to science to nutrition. You don't have to be an expert. You don't even have to have a background. All you have to have is a will to win and stay strong. I will put a link in the show notes below. Please go to my website, drgabrielleine.com we sold out last year and I would hate for you to miss this opportunity. So if you're waiting for a sign, if you're thinking you need to change something up and you need community friends, we've got you covered.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

Nelson, Virgil, welcome to the show.

[Guest Speaker]

Thank you for having me. I'm excited.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

You are a very unique guest and I want to share a little bit about your background and one of your perspectives, which you have many in terms of anabolic steroids, wasting syndrome, the future of medicine. When we think about body composition, you are uniquely positioned to have an opinion on this and I want to hear it from you. But in the mid-80s, you learned you were HIV positive.

[Guest Speaker]

Yeah.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

@ the time. Can you share what that landscape was like?

[Guest Speaker]

Oh, it was horrible. Even remembering those days, I tried to block them. But I'm going to talk about it today. Yeah. I got here to the States from Venezuela on 84. I met somebody that I wanted to move in with and came to the master's degree. And a year later, less than a year later, he tested behind my back because back then the test use had come out that year. 85, 84.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

The HIV test.

[Guest Speaker]

HIV test? Yeah. We didn't have a test before. People were speculating that gay men were getting it through drug use and other stuff. They didn't really think it was a virus until 84, 85, where the virus, the test actually was discovered. Back then, nobody in my community wanted to get tested because there were no treatments. Why be told that you're going to die and have nothing to do about it? I didn't want to get tested, but my partner behind my back did get tested. So he told me he was positive. I was sure that was positive. So here in Houston, we only had a little place called the Montrose Clinic. There was a little trailer that they had set up for HIV and went there to get tested. And obviously I was tested and positive. And that was within a year that I had come to this country to try to get the American dream too.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

And you're training as a chemical engineer?

[Guest Speaker]

I was a chemical engineer already. I just came here for an MBA and you know, for more studies, actually moving here because I lived in Venezuela. I went to school in Canada and Montreal, but went to work for the oil business in Venezuela. But I knew it wasn't for me. So anyway, so that kind of felt like I was hit in the face with all my dreams, you know.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

How old were you?

[Guest Speaker]

24 years of age, you know, so it's very hard. But I cried for like four days, I remember. But something told me, don't give up, just research. And there was nothing. There was no newsletters, no Internet. No Internet, no fax machines. So that was the hardest part, trying to find information. And I saw a notice at the clinic I got tested at Montrose Clinic. Now there's a big clinic now, but anyways, that the CDC was looking for volunteers to be trained as counselors, people that actually gave results. So that's how the first training I got from the cdc, so that's how I know, oh, there are trainings out there that I can get information from.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

At the time there, when an individual, in the 80s, when they were diagnosed with HIV, was there a projection for how long someone was going to live and what would they die of?

[Guest Speaker]

Most people would drop within a year of being told that they're HIV positive. And most people would die of wasting syndrome. You'll see basically, and you see them in the grocery stores in Montreal, especially people really skinny, like the concentration camp victims. Something else that was obvious is people would get spots on their face. Ks, which is another virus, Kaposi sarcoma. Kaposi sarcoma, which is another virus that attacks you up when you're immune, systemic people. So yeah, all My friends started to drop like that, you know, we were going to memorial services every weekend. The whole Montrose was well known back then for being like a gay community, gay neighborhood. It's not no longer the case, but memorial services every weekend. When somebody would not call you back, you would assume they were dying. And it was horrible. Hospitals, they want to treat us. The ones that did. They have to put, you know, masks and suits. People were being kicked out of their families. It was. It was a horrible nightmare. And after, what, 50 years, 45 years. People are forgetting about.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

People are forgetting about it now.

[Guest Speaker]

Yeah, Yeah.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

I want to paint the picture for the listener or the viewer that in the mid-80s, HIV AIDS was devastating to a community of people, to the individual, to the family. The treatment was unknown. People were dying of wasting syndrome, skeletal muscle and systemic wasting. The individuals were also getting lesions on their face. Karposi sarcoma. Fast forward to now. How many people or how deadly is HIV now?

[Guest Speaker]

Not deadly at all. It's almost like having diabetes. You can control it very well. There are over 18 treatments. I'm a survivor. 42, 43 years. But it took a lot of work. We were without treatment since 1996. I found out in 1985. So.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

Wow.

[Guest Speaker]

That time we were without treatment, you went from.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

So that's what, 10? Yeah, almost 10 years.

[Guest Speaker]

Yeah. All of us. All of us were in the closet at work, so we were afraid to be showing the symptoms of wasting or waste, facial wasting, weight loss, that or ks. So I was horrified. I was obsessed.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

Rks. What is that? Carposi sarcoma.

[Guest Speaker]

Yeah. I had, you know, engineering jobs, Shell, different oil companies that I actually finally worked, found a job and I couldn't disclose. I couldn't disclose I was gay or HIV positive. But I was horrified every day looking at myself in the mirror if I was going to show symptoms or wasting. I started losing weight and I. That's when I realized, oh, my God, I'm next.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

So it's intense.

[Guest Speaker]

Intense. I was. I was saved. My life was saved when I was transferred by Shell to la, where bodybuilding is a culture. And that's where I found out in support groups, there were two guys that came in. We were all skinny, losing weight. I had lost already 12 pounds. And these two guys were pumped and looked great.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

Did they have HIV?

[Guest Speaker]

They have HIV? They had. They were in the. In the. We had support groups. One was run by Marian Williamson. Anyways, and I went to talk.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

Marianne Williamson.

[Guest Speaker]

Marian Williamson?

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

Yeah. That's no small name.

[Guest Speaker]

Marian Williamson was our chief, was Our guy, our coach.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

Interesting.

[Guest Speaker]

She were teaching us not to feel sorry for ourselves, that we were not victims. We can die with dignity. That's how I learned from her. Yeah, yeah. Marion Williams. And she's from Houston too.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

She is. I did not know that.

[Guest Speaker]

Anyway, so I, I went to talk to them, I said, listen, we're all, you guys are doing something, I really want to know what you're doing. And they taught me about nandrolone and oxanolone and testosterone, even went with me to Mexico to get some. And that's how I reversed 35 pounds.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

This is exactly why I want. Well, number one, you and I are friends. We have a common friend in common. Sean Norian, who is the founder and owner of the largest compounding pharmacy in the world. Shout out to empower pharmacy. But what you are saying is heavy and it is deep and is complex in the way that you were given a diagnosis that we knew was going to cause severe wasting and death. You've lost a ton of people. The medical community was not able to support the treatment. It was largely unknown. People didn't even know it was happening. You go to la, all of a sudden, you, and I'm paraphrasing, you see large buff bodybuilders, the era probably of Arnold Schwarzenegger esque in Venice. And these are individuals that were utilizing not FDA approved treatments for HIV to build muscle and actually survive.

[Guest Speaker]

Yes, yes, I embrace that. Bodybuilding saved my life. Bodybuilders saved my life. If it wasn't for them, they died eventually of other things because some of us were able to gain enough lean body mass. And I want to talk about lean body mass and the difference, but anyways, we also had a really good researcher that found out that once we lost a third of our lean body mass, you would die no matter what.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

Cancer, cachexia, cancer, hiv, anything.

[Guest Speaker]

A lot of us have lost our parents or grandparents and that's usually what happens at the end of stage. So that's when we realized in the whole community realized that having muscle meant survival or at least buying time. Obviously it was not a cure, you know, but I wanted to buy time because I knew, you know, research was started, ACT was already being studied, which ended up being a toxic drug anyways that killed us faster. So I knew time was an essence to at least buy some time. So I did. I gained 35 pounds. I was like woken up. People at work would say, wow, my God, you're working out, you look so great. They were already asking me, I remember I was terrified. You don't you look tired before? Are you sleeping well? You know, so that's when. And then they switched to, oh my God, I want to know what you're doing. And that really gave me the will to live like I really did. And I wanted to preach. I just wanted everybody, you had nothing to lose.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

You're going to die.

[Guest Speaker]

I wanted everybody to know it better, all the doctors. Even though obviously there is stigma, not only HIV has a stigma, being gay has a stigma and embolic steroids have a stigma. So I had to deal with three stigmas to get over that. But I was successful even without the Internet, even without any ways to actually spread the information nationwide. What safety was the invention of a fax machine? When the fax machine came, I was unstoppable because I faxed every doctor that I could in the United States about my program. I actually did a summary.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

And is it still. So this is. So is this the non for profit, the program for wellness restoration?

[Guest Speaker]

Yeah, it was called the power program.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

Power program.

[Guest Speaker]

Doctors jump donate because doctors were horrified how fast their patients were dying and they embraced it.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

And this was the strategies for reversing wasting with the use of FDA approved anabolic steroids for men and women. Yeah, there is a huge stigma and I just want to say that I believe we are going to look back at obesity and say obesity is similar to how HIV has been able to be treated. That maybe there is a way in which we can manage it, especially with the use of GLP1s. It potentially obesity might look very similar to how we have largely stopped talking about hiv.

[Guest Speaker]

I hope so. And there is, there is hope for that.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

There is hope with the use of GLP1s and this an anabolic steroid use that is FDA approved. Now the question is, and what I'd love to hear from you is if you could paint the picture of what it was like in terms of anabolic use. Where were the stigmas? Where do you think that they were born? Why was it that up until a certain point a person, a patient could go to the doctor and say, you know what, I want to have stronger muscles, probably be able to be prescribed an anabolic versus then sports happen, Congress, all these other things and then shut it down and really has now what I believe changed the trajectory of aging for everybody because of this heavy stigma? And I'm talking about beyond hormone replacement.

[Guest Speaker]

Yeah, that's a good question. You know, most of these molecules, most of these products were developed 50 years ago. So they're all. We have good data on Androlone and people don't know. People say FDA approved. Yeah. We have four FDA approved anabolic agents. I like to call them androgens because they really. That's what they are.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

I think that's a much better term. It also reduces our lexicon of speaking about. It also reduces the stigma, of course.

[Guest Speaker]

So you know, they were prescribed for anemia for different conditions, even for frailty related to aging back in the 70s, 80s, you know, until the Anabolic Steroid act was enacted mostly to combat the use of anabolics in sports, in baseball, as we know, and all the other stuff that really shut the door to all the research. We can talk about it. Yeah, completely. Unless in HIV we continue with the research. I was able to belong to join committees at the nih, the National Institute of Health, part of the fda. That's a long story. I was able to advocate with a bunch of my activist friends. I became an activist for federally funded studies on nandrolone, oxanolone, testosterone, exercise in HIV positive men and women.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

Nandrolone, oxandrolone, testosterone, oxymetholone is another one.

[Guest Speaker]

But that's one we only studied once because it does have some liver toxicity issues.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

Is that an oral agent?

[Guest Speaker]

Oral agent. There are two orals, three orals. Oxymetholone, oxanolone, stanasonol. Those are orals. The three of them. Sorry. And nandrolone is injectable. And testosterone. Testosterone is an anabolic steroid also. Obviously less stigma about testosterone nowadays. Definitely changed, but yeah, that really changed everything. The Anabolic Steroid Control act, which was, you know, just based on not having people cheat in sports. I always say the definition of cheating. Although there's a new movement of having Olympics and different styles enhance games.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

I've heard about.

[Guest Speaker]

But anyways, that really was. But we continued in hiv, obviously we had. The risk to benefit ratio was different.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

For people with HIV because they were going to die as opposed to a anemic patient or because it was used. If you look at some of the studies, nandrolone was used for postmenopausal women in osteoporosis.

[Guest Speaker]

Yeah. And breast cancer, you know, like metastasized advanced breast cancer.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

Did the, you know, you said that you'd become an activist. What does an activist do? And what is the, you know, what's the role of an activist in terms of what they are hoping for and what the outcome would be?

[Guest Speaker]

Yeah, activists, at least in hiv. And now we have HIV cure activism. I'm part of that world too because now we're Proceeding to a cure. But anyways, activists, we really get together, strategize about strategy on how we're going to get a treatment approved or access approved and we really show up to FDA meetings.

[Nelson Virgil]

I've been using Element for years and has really changed the game of electrolytes. It has sodium, magnesium and potassium, all minerals the body requires. Sometimes we don't need more caffeine for energy, but what we need are water and electrolytes. I use Element daily, often in iced tea or just straight water between workouts or sip on it throughout the day to get more fluids. Pretty sure we could all drink more. Not that kind of drink. Element is a zero sugar electrolyte drink mix and sparkling electrolyte water. Made from a growing body of research. Each stick packs a meaningful dose of electrolytes free of sugar, artificial colors and other weird ingredients. Element is formulated for anyone on a mission to restore health through hydration and it is perfectly suited for athletes, those who are fasting. Maybe you're on a protein forward diet. If you are, we are friends. Low carb, keto, whole food, you name it. Get your free Element sample pack with any purchase. Go to drink element lmnt.comdrlion and also try the new Element Sparkling, a bold 16 ounce can of sparkling electrolyte water. Cherry lime is my favorite. That's drinklmnt.com DrLion Is anyone able to.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

Go to an FDA?

[Guest Speaker]

Yeah, almost every product has a comment section or a comment period where the public is. But most people don't know about it. The public's invited to either send emails. Well now we have the Internet. Back then we had to show up or faxes or faxes. We have to show up now. But yeah, that's what we did. We show up to all the meetings and some people were afraid of us because ACT UP used to shut down traffic in New York. ACT UP was a main activist group and in HIV they actually changed themselves to Wall street to decrease the price of act. The New Yorkers and the San Francisco activists were the most active. I was in Houston, Texas doing all this work with the medical use of anabolics for men and women. And people also have this stigma that only men use it and for clinical use of steroids. I also did some work with oncologists here in Houston. They were more open minded to treating wasting in cancer cassettes.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

Do so and you know, wasting itself is a disease and again a disease state or a highly catabolic state and then sarcopenia, which is the decrease in muscle mass and Function. Finally got an ICD 10 code. And do you know when 2016.

[Guest Speaker]

Yeah.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

Finally got a diagnosis.

[Guest Speaker]

No indication though. No product being indicated yet.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

Why is that?

[Guest Speaker]

Don't know why. Tell me.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

But it seems as if we have treatment for low muscle mass.

[Guest Speaker]

Yeah. Oxanalone, androlone are perfectly. Especially oxanalone because it can be used really in women, men and children. Has been studied in pediatrics too safely.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

And we. Again, this is a very complicated topic that we are discussing not just from a medical perspective. Right. This is deep stigma about this idea of anabolic agents. When they should be used, when they shouldn't, who should be able to use it and who shouldn't. And where we're at is we are entering a new epidemic and that epidemic is going to be trading obesity for an epidemic of sarcopenia and osteoporosis from what I believe like we've never seen before.

[Guest Speaker]

I agree. I agree. The loss of lean body mass happens More so with GLP1s, you know, and even though they're great, I mean they're a miracle.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

They are amazing.

[Guest Speaker]

Yes. They should be adjunct therapies. Androgens could be adjunct therapies to GLP1s perfectly.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

I agree with you. And I think one of the things that I found so fascinating about you is that if we were to take a step back and, and we look at the Houston Buyers Club. So there's the Dallas Buyers Club that everyone knows about, but there's also a Houston's Buyers Club. And one of the things that is just spectacular, and I do think that you should write a book on your story is that you informed physicians from a group of individuals that had nothing to lose because they were going to die to survive and started working with doctors and educating doctors on anabolic agents, which now fast forward to urologists and andrology. Really the only specialty that I think is doing it right and well and forward thinking. So tell me when you began that.

[Guest Speaker]

But think about it. I mean, there's this epidemic that kills you. You are in your 20s. Most of us were very young. Yeah, most activists were. We're in our 20s. We had energy, we knew we were going to die. We had nothing to lose. The perfect combination for an activist movement, you know, that we probably haven't had since then. So we organized and we had no Internet and we organized and some of us became specialized. I mean my specialty was wasting a metabolics, metabolic syndrome. So like we had metabolic issues too. Some of the people would, you know, specialize on, on other, like mostly women's issues, health issues. So we became, we were laypeople. I was an engineer. Some of us, you know, had medical clinical backgrounds, but, but most people weren't. So we had to educate ourselves. I had to go to a library and read everything about anabolic steroids and androgens because there was a lot of research. There's a lot of research that was done in the 40s, 50s, 60s. And then I had to translate that and make sure that I would tell the doctors. Doctors were desperate. Doctors treating HIV were desperate. Patients were dying, they were losing their people. So they completely right away took on.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

Did you have resistance from physicians? So a physician would say, okay, well you're a chemical engineer, but this is lay public. How are you gonna tell us?

[Guest Speaker]

No, no, there was no resistance because a, these were FDA approved products.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

And can you explain?

[Guest Speaker]

Yeah, they're schedule three. Okay. So, yeah, you have to have a DEA number. When a doctor prescribes it, they have to write a DA number. It's like testosterone. Testosterone is a Schedule 3 by the DEA. So anabolics like nandrolone take testosterone. It's really all these molecules are very closely related to testosterone. They were modified by researchers to slow down the liver metabolism so they could stay longer in the body. I mean, you look at the molecules, they're very close. So they're schedule three, they're prescribable. You're not breaking the law by prescribing them. You can prescribe them off label, and there are many. We can talk about the off label uses. And in hiv, obviously, doctors didn't care because they knew something, anything that worked and it worked and it worked quickly. These things work. And within a month, people are gaining weight, strength, energy, mood. I mean, this is not just about muscle. We know that increasing muscle mass increases longevity and survival. It was the perfect storm, really was. I never had a pushback. I never had a problem with the government. Actually, it was welcoming because it was a number two cause of AIDS death. The first one was PCP pneumonia. Pneumonia, fungus that would take over our lungs. But this was a number two. This was a solution to that problem. Then obviously in 96, 97, we had the protease inhibitors came in, better drugs came in. They had horrible side effects. But at least our viral load, our HIV was able to be undetectable. That really made a big difference. Most of us bought at least five to six years. And many of my friends died before 94. So I was, I'm just lucky I was in the right place. I was curious I was fearless. So it's not like I don't know if I would do this again. Because their circumstances was a perfect storm. Doctors were, you know, they were welcoming this information. I was sending faxes. They would call me. The NIH was welcoming, yes. They wanted us to take magase, which was a progestin product.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

For hunger.

[Guest Speaker]

For hunger. But magase only increases fat mass, not lean body mass. They wanted us to take Marinol. We had basically thc, THC approved to.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

Try to eat, but none of that did anything for muscle. When you discovered this change, that these bodybuilders were using anabolics to save lives, how was it accessible? What is this idea of the Houston Buyers Club?

[Guest Speaker]

The Houston Buyers Club was. We were looking for treatments for hiv. There was nothing. Obviously, ACT actually was found to be killing us faster. There were ACT studies. I was in the study, thank God. I found out when they opened the open label, when they opened the label, that I was on placebo because I would be dead. I was depressed. Oh, my God, I'm on placebo.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

And what was the azt?

[Guest Speaker]

ACT is a nucleoside reverse truncated inhibitor that was used in cancer back in the 50s, and it has HIV activity. It's just that the toxicities to the mitochondria.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

Do they use that anymore at all?

[Guest Speaker]

No, no, it's banned from HIV. It was banned in 2002 or something like that. The mitochondria would destroy our mitochondria. Imagine that. But, you know, HIV would actually go down. So anyways, I was on placebo, so I survived also because I was in that study. My. My partner was in the treatment arm. He died faster. So I had three boyfriends die. So you have to bury all those people, too. So it's. It's a lot of. Sometimes, you know, I think it was luck, but sometimes being the right place, right time, sometimes it's, I think, being curious and not giving up. Even without Internet, you know, sometimes the power of community really saves everything. I mean, I don't think we're gonna. I hope, I pray we never have another thing like this in this world. You know, even, you know, obviously, Covid kind of woke us up too. I was like, oh, no, not another one, right? We got, you know, we have ptsd.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

Most of us, I'm sure.

[Guest Speaker]

And then monkeypox. Oh, my God, not again. So every time something comes up, all of us are triggered, the ones that are still alive.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

And the. The reason that the Buyers Club happened was that from what I understand, physicians were not providing anabolics and they had to. Is that true that individuals had to go somewhere?

[Guest Speaker]

No, the anabolics. Well, a lot of people went to Mexico and get it there because Mexico, you can get it without a prescription, most of them. But the virus club was mostly related to finding treatments for hiv.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

So not anabolics?

[Guest Speaker]

No, because anabolics are FDA approved. Anabolics are available by prescription. So all HIV doctors and people really, there were some doctors, non infectious disease, some family doctors, they specialized on hiv, believe it or not. Their fear actually decreased in the early 90s. My doctor, I've been with him for years too, and he embraced this. They became experts. They're experts on androgens. HIV doctors are especially.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

Really?

[Guest Speaker]

Oh, yeah.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

Now.

[Guest Speaker]

Yeah, the ones are still in practice. Yeah, they're experts learned 30 years of actually giving these compounds to men and women. So the buyer's club, basically we were importing stuff from Israel, from Mexico, from South America, from Germany. Products that had some data on being immune boosters, herbal products from Asia. We had support groups where we would do enemas with Chinese herbal tea that was supposed to increase your immune system. That's where the virus glow came in as a main source of finding alternatives or treatments for a virus that we didn't have treatments for. And the Dallas Buyers Club, which they made a movie of, but the Houston Buyers Club was first.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

And people don't know that. People don't know. I mean, I, before I moved here, I didn't know that there was a Houston. Houston Buyers Club. When we think about lean body mass, I would love for you to share again also for people listening, you are not a physician, but what you have in spades is experience. And you have a group of 40. How many thousand?

[Guest Speaker]

42,000 on excelmail.com But Facebook, I have groups also.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

And you have been following these groups that are using. I don't want to even just say anabolics, but the whole spectrum of body composition for how many years?

[Guest Speaker]

35, 40.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

I mean, that's unbelievable. That's like a very large longitudinal study.

[Guest Speaker]

Yes, I would think. Open label. Yeah, Yeah, I would. I wish I had a PhD student gathering my data because I have a lot of. A lot of data. But yeah, there's a women's group on Facebook that I have over 28,000 women from all over the world talking about hormones and body composition quality. Facebook group, the testosterone replacement discussion group has over 32,000 men all over the world. Excel male, also international, 45,000.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

And we'll link everything so people can find it.

[Guest Speaker]

Yeah, yeah. And I learn every day. I do, I learn by just reading.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

What people are posting, which is so interesting. We just have to pause and understand that there is this idea that every. And I believe as a physician, as our mutual friend Dr. Lipschultz and Moha Kara, we believe in evidence based practices, of course, and there is a moment where evidence based practices end and experience begins. And this is what we're hearing from patients and people. And that really can then serve to inform what is potentially optimal, which is kind of counterintuitive to the landscape of medicine.

[Guest Speaker]

Of course, I think every physician should have an assistant that is present online and is gathering field information online. Because it's so easy now, it's so easy to gather because it's one thing what you read on the label of a product by the fda, you know, or the pharmaceutical person or rep that comes into your office, they just give you that packaged info that they label and they cannot even speak off label.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

And it's challenging. And off label is off label.

[Guest Speaker]

It's, you know, obviously. So the only way to learn off label uses is gathering information from the field, from, from patients. And who has time for that? Doctors don't have time, obviously.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

Right.

[Guest Speaker]

So I really believe one day in near future we will have specialists that only gather information of offline uses online because it's so easy now.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

And that would be fascinating. Can you give me some of the biggest myths that you've seen over the three decades of use of anabolics that people have that would potentially create a roadblock for you have a 45 year old woman at home saying, I have low muscle mass, I've tried everything, whatever it is. I am interested in anabolics, anabolic use or whatever it is, or even hormones.

[Guest Speaker]

But I'm afraid first stigmatized thing that is not true is that hormones will make you aggressive, hormones will kill your liver, hormones will make you moody. Hormones in men will increase your prostate cancer risk. Hormones in women will increase your breast cancer risk. Mostly the aggressiveness. And that's how they sold the anabolic controls Steroid Control act.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

Really?

[Guest Speaker]

Yeah.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

Tell me more about that.

[Guest Speaker]

Yeah, they. When you say anabolic steroids back then.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

Everybody still freaks out every time.

[Guest Speaker]

And everybody says, well, he's a cheater and he's probably abusing his wife or his girlfriend or his partner. They do. It's, it's associated with behavioral issues, with anger, which is most people in testosterone or any of these products actually feel better, their mood is better, the quality of ice is better, they relate to people better. So that's a stigma and a barrier to access.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

As a mom of two kids, I've.

[Nelson Virgil]

Always had major concerns with what we cook on and how we store our food. I felt a ton of relief when I started using Our Place. When I became aware of the risks associated with what we cook our food in, I immediately looked for options. And that is how I found one of the sponsors of this show which is Our Place. And I'm so grateful to them. Most cookware and appliances are made with Forever chemicals. Their products are made without that's Our Place. Are made without PFAS and Teflon. In comparison, most of today's non stick pans contain pfas, this Forever chemical which the EU plans to prohibit by this year. Most cookware brands continue to use these chemicals due to their low cost. Well, I'm not paying for it with my kids and that's why Our Place came out with non toxic appliances that are changing the game. Upgrade to Our Place today and say goodbye to Forever Chemicals in your kitchen. Go to from our place.com and enter my code Dr. Lyon at checkout to receive 10% off. That's from our place.com code DrLion. And our place offers a hundred day trial with free shipping and returns. I will tell you what this is. As much as I love every product that I talk about from a fundamental health perspective, this is one that I strongly and deeply encourage you to invest in. Because it is what we feed our children with. It is what we are eating with daily. And these chemicals that are these Forever chemicals, I have huge concern. So check out Our Place. I think you'll be incredibly happy and relieved.

[Guest Speaker]

We have to. I would like to rebrand them, rename them because it's really. You cannot fight against a term that has been stigmatized for so long.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

I know.

[Guest Speaker]

So androgens really is the word that it, it really should summarize.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

So we'll call them androgens. That's what anabolic.

[Guest Speaker]

Yeah, okay. Anabolic agents, you know, but androgens and yeah, there is using women, there's oxanolone for instance.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

Yeah, let's talk about, let's break down the anabolic agents. Yeah, the, the myths are basically, if I were to ask you, in appropriate doses are anabolic agents dangerous, inappropriate doses.

[Guest Speaker]

And we can discuss what that means also because you know, bodybuilders and thank God for bodybuilders, they saved my life. So I'm not criticizing. Bodybuilders tend to use very high doses and they, they tend to stack A few compounds together because, you know, there's.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

Some synergy as more is some.

[Guest Speaker]

But there are side effects like, you know, high hematocrit, which increases the viscosity in the blood and cardiovascular issues come. Come around. There's other, other issues. High blood pressure, renal issues that happen at high doses. But physiologic doses, lower doses, normal dose. Yeah. Increase lean body mass, improved mood. That do not increase red blood cells as much. Anabolics and testosterone, which. Testosterone is anabolic. They have one main side effect is their hemopoietic agents, meaning they increase the production of red blood cells in, in the bone marrow. And that's a good thing for people with anemia. Right. Because they need more. It's FDA approved for anemia. But if you. Depending on the dose, you go too high on the red blood cells and that makes the blood thicker and thicker and the viscosity goes up. And the heart is a pump and pump. You know, they don't like viscous thick liquids. So there is a concern about cardiovascular. But if you disease or risk. So you keep the dose. Like nandrolone, for instance, 100 milligrams a week. They're always used with testosterone. These molecules are so closely related to testosterone.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

We should talk about nandrolone in more detail because I've only mentioned it on the show. I was actually waiting to have you on. And we've had a Dr. Mahakara on. We've had Abe Morgenthaler on as well. And I wanted to save the anabolic agent discussion for you.

[Guest Speaker]

Okay. We'll be here for a while.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

Tell me about nandrolone.

[Guest Speaker]

Yeah, Nandrolone is a, is a, It's a beautiful molecule. It's. It's an injectable. Has no effect on liver enzymes. Nandrolone does. And really a small decrease on HDL at 100mg or so a week. For, for men, women can use 25 milligrams a week with no virilization. Viralization of women can show up if you do higher doses of anabolics like beach fuzz growth hair here, deepening of the voice. The worst side effect will be clitoral enlargement, amenorrhea issues with menstruation. But at lower doses you don't see those issues.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

And before you continue, I just want to put this in perspective for people. Typically, nandrolone is given at 50% the dose of testosterone or less.

[Guest Speaker]

Yeah. And I was going to get to that. Anabolics basically are so closely related to testosterone that the, the body doesn't know the difference. And they tend to shut down your own testosterone production. Men and women. Women produce testosterone too. And that's not a good thing long term. Because sex drive decreases erectile function, dysfunction can occur. So they should always use as an adjunct therapy with testosterone. So testosterone a ratio of 1 to 1. Some people use a 2 to 1. Testosterone to nandrolone or oxanolone is an oral. Let's not jump. I'm a little too eager to talk about all the products.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

Well, definitely yes, for sure, Nando. Because people need to know that it is not some crazy compound. It's FDA approved, it can be used off label. It can be used off label safely. And I would love for you to talk about the safety profile and again how we think about dosing for men and women and potential indications right now.

[Guest Speaker]

Let's talk about what what is used right now. The landscape of the use of nandrolone Decanoate used to be called decadorabulin. The brand name does not longer the case.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

Deca which the grow is called deca.

[Guest Speaker]

Yeah, now that's gone. The pharmaceutical brand is no longer available. Only compounded an Addolone made by compounding pharmacies. Empower Pharmacy is one of the largest and is here in Houston. Very lucky to be in Houston. The best urologists and the best bet you aren't here. We're a lucky city here when it comes to androgens. But anyways, Nandrolone shuts down like oxanalone, all the others, your own testosterone production. So it's good to bring testosterone in at the same time. And that's a mistake that some bodybuilders have done in the past and they experience obviously sexual dysfunction because of that. Right now it's being used mostly by urologists, some andrologists. All anabolics have this function that they decrease sex hormone binding. Globulin is this hormone that actually attaches to hormones and deactivates them. Basically doesn't allow them to do the biological. Why? Because it's a way for the body to protect itself from large amounts of hormones. You know, so sex hormone binding globulin is a good thing. People think it's a bad. The body doesn't produce anything that doesn't need. But anabolics decrease sex hormone binding globulin and free up more hormones. So in a. When you use dandelion and testosterone, you have higher free testosterone, which is really being correlated to all the good things about testosterone. Free testosterone not total. Some people may have good total testosterone, but Very low free testosterone and they have symptoms of testosterone. Low mood, low sex drive, erectile dysfunction, just not coping very well with stress. That's where I tell people that's the number one symptom of having low testosterone. And anabolics can actually improve free testosterone. So I'm seeing it more used for that purpose to free up testosterone.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

What about estrogens and other hormones?

[Guest Speaker]

I'm one of the few people online that have read all the papers on estrogen in men. Let's talk about estrogen in men and the importance of men and estrogen. Testosterone converts into estrogen or estradiol, only 0.4%, a tiny amount because the body needs it to balance the effects of testosterone. Estradiol, estrogen is an enhancer of the effects of testosterone. So many doctors are blocking estrogen in men with anastrozole with anastrozole, which is an old breast cancer drug. And that's actually counterproductive. And I'm probably one of a few people, there are a few of us on the Internet now talking about it. And there are many papers that show that actually men with higher estrogen have better sex, sex, sexual libido and sexual function. So most doctors are making that mistake about estrogen. Estrogen in women, we know, I mean, it's great for everything. Benefits of mood, sex drive, bone density, you name it, and obviously menopause. That's when things change a little. So testosterone can and is a source of estradiol, estrogen aromatization in fat cells in the liver. A lot of these conversions happen in the liver. Testosterone and anabolics also can convert into dht, dehydrotestosterone, which is a very good strong androgen that also improves sexual function. But it can be associated with hair loss or acne and maybe prostatic.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

For men and women.

[Guest Speaker]

For men and women. And obviously the prostatic effects. Not for men, but not for women.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

Yeah, that would be.

[Guest Speaker]

But blocking dht, and some men are doing that, they're taking finasteride for hair loss.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

We do not recommend finasteride at all.

[Guest Speaker]

It can actually kill your sex drive, decrease your mood, have long lasting effects. I call it finasteride syndrome. So blocking dht, blocking estradiol is really counterproductive. These are metabolites of testosterone. They're friends of testosterone, they're helping testosterone. And they're not enemies. I mean, that's the thing about, I don't know why some people think that there's some bad hormones and some good hormones. In fact, it's all Hormones were made by evolution for a good reason. Right. To balance each other.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

And also testosterone is not just a male hormone.

[Guest Speaker]

No. An estrogen. Estrogen is not only a female hormone.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

Exactly.

[Guest Speaker]

So that's another one of those misconceptions. And some doctors are not educating themselves and they're blocking either one of those two metabolites. Yeah, I don't know how I got digressing.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

Well, we're talking about. No, no. So basically we're talking about why someone would use a anabolic agent. And an anabolic agent specifically, for example, nandrolone. And one of the things that all anabolic agents do will also lower sex hormone binding globulin. And that's how you got on the topic of the rest because, and I will say from a clinical perspective, we like to see estrogen, depending on the lab, between 30 and 50 in men. We like to see robust estrogen levels in women. Women that have been on birth control will have high sex hormone binding globulins along with copper. And this tends to be the sex hormone binding globulin that increases, tends to be irreversible. But we do see with use of low dose anabolics or other various agents that you can lower sex hormone binding globulin, thus making hormones available to the body.

[Guest Speaker]

Great point, great point. What I was going to say also about uses of nandrolone. Right. Of label uses urology, especially their posters and emerging data on joint pain reduction here in Houston, actually the Baylor group, Lipscholtz and all, they actually have some good data is observational and self reported on the decrease in pain in men with joint pain.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

And is it fair to say it would also affect women, lower joint pain in women?

[Guest Speaker]

There's no reason to believe that it's not right.

[Nelson Virgil]

This episode is brought to you by timeline. Remember, we set standards, not goals. And one of the core standards that we should all set is having healthy muscle. And that starts with robust mitochondria. There are various ways to get healthy muscle that includes a amazing resistance training program, it includes dietary protein. And if I were to pick one supplement for muscle health and mitochondria, that would be mitopure. It's a precise dose of a postbiotic urolithin A. And it works by promoting essential cellular cleanup. And this process clears out old dysfunctional mitochondria. I would make a mother in law joke, but I'm not going to. And timeline has done an incredible job at leading the way from a science perspective to bring you the only clinically backed urolithin A on the market. And I will tell you what, I've been using Urolithin A for years. My husband uses it, my friends use it. And here's why. We have better energy, we recover faster. I feel like I have more endurance and it really helps me meet my physical standards and I know that it.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

Will help you too.

[Nelson Virgil]

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[Guest Speaker]

Obviously the data was is being derived from men and fair.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

Unfortunately that's because the Lipschild, Lipschultz, the group is. They do see. Lipschultz group primarily sees men but the other providers there also do seawim. But the large database I think is none.

[Guest Speaker]

Yeah. And there's good results. I mean guys, on Excel, male, I've used it for joint pain. I work out. You know, anytime you work out and you get into either knee pain or shoulder pain and that's when we freak out. Nandrolone actually improves and we don't know the mechanism.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

I was going to ask you, do we know them and do we also know the dose because it would be used off label. Off label means it doesn't mean that it hasn't been proven safe. Off label means that when FDA approval goes through for a indication, for example, this is FDA approved to treat anemia that once FDA is approved, like the FDA approval, you can use it then off label to treat various other indications. It doesn't mean that it is shady or unsafe. I do believe that that's important.

[Guest Speaker]

Yeah, that's very important. And I'm glad you because we haven't really described what off label is. We're talking about off label. Yeah, off label is actually clinical use. I mean and many posters and abstracts are written and published on off label uses. Okay, Nandrolone has a few of label uses. There's some data on multiple sclerosis. Copd.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

Do we know is it a muscular effect?

[Guest Speaker]

A muscular effect? COPD people COPD severe osteoarthritis. They tend to lose muscle mass. Also, you know, they're expending all this extra energy with their, you know, their lung disease and all these problems. So it's good data on that. As I said, good data on under lung use in advanced breast Cancer.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

For wasting. For wasting.

[Guest Speaker]

And no compared to tamoxifen. Actually there's comparable data.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

Tell me.

[Guest Speaker]

I was, I was, I was really, I was really shocked. I, I discovered this paper six months ago. It was really a paper that was generated in the late 80s comparing tamoxifen with nandrolone. They had the same survival rates, the same longevity. Obviously tamoxifen, nandrolone, you have to modulate the masculinizing effect. You have to be careful with the dose. But it had a really. And the quality of life was better than on tamoxifen. So that's shocking because I do have some family members and friends that have gone through pretty bad cases of breast cancer. So yeah, copd, multiple sclerosis. There's some good pilot data on androlone. Go on and on. I mean joint disease, hiv obviously Kassasia. They have done some studies on cancer. Oncologists are afraid, afraid of androgens. They're really afraid. And there's some androgen dependent cancers that you would try to avoid the use of anabolics but there's many are not.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

Where do you think the, do you think there'll be a re emergence of the anabolic agent use with the increase in GLP1s?

[Guest Speaker]

Nobody's doing the study. That's where I'm surprised nobody's doing this. I mean I would love to see a study of nanolone use with GLPs. You know they're both injectables or oxanalone and GLP ones to and do DEXA scannings, you know, to body measure body composition and baseline.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

Are we sure no one's doing those studies? I, I haven't seen any.

[Guest Speaker]

I've checked. I went to clinical trials.gov and not everything is posted there, but most of it, no, nobody. And it's time because we know that GLP1 semaglutide decreases lean body mass. You know, fat mass decreases too, but lean body mass decreases substantially. So how can we preserve lean body mass while fat mass goes down? That's a trick that we should actually be doing right now. So no, we have nobody and hopefully somebody listens to the podcast can pick that up. But that would be a beautiful study to do in men and women. Low dose nandrolone with testosterone. Obviously you have to do it with that.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

What would be considered too high a dose of nandrolone from.

[Guest Speaker]

Again, you've seen anything above 150 milligrams a week. Yeah, on nandrolone and women. Anything above maybe 80 milligrams 50 to 80.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

Yeah. And that would be really high.

[Guest Speaker]

Yeah, really high. You can do 25 with a testosterone for women, you know, low dose to. To you and men 100 milligrams of testosterone with 50 milligrams of nandolone. That would be safe low dose and GLP1. So obviously once a week I think that would be. That will make a lot of sense. I don't know any other androgens or anabolic any other med medical approaches to increasing lean mass in people taking semaglutide or tirzepatide. I just do not know. I'm thinking very strongly about it and.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

Those I haven't seen it yet products.

[Guest Speaker]

Are already FDA approved. We know how to modulate side effects. It makes sense.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

And I would encourage people who are listening to this. Again, we're not giving medical advice. The goal is to educate. I would suggest individuals dive into the literature and look for themselves about nandrolone use their randomized control trials for osteoporosis for anemia. There's variation in dosing whether it's you know, 25 or less that people just. And also the providers listening to an.

[Guest Speaker]

Extensive section on excelmail.com excelmail.com is a forum. It's not like Reddit but it's more organized than Reddit. But we have folders in that forum and one of the folders is. Is called Clinical use of anabolic steroids. Clinical use. So we have subfolders and one of them is all about Nandrolone. It's actually called all about Nandrolone. So the clinical data on Nandrolone off label uses in a table I summarized like perfectly. Clinicians love this. There are doctors on my side actually.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

Learning which is again a very interesting space because it's in some way it's very niche but it shouldn't be. And I believe that the reason it's niche is because of the immense stigma and it's done a huge disservice to medicine in general, to muscle mass and medicine in general because hey listen, it is much easier to lose body fat than it is to build muscle.

[Guest Speaker]

Oh yeah.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

And we have to come up with strategies that I mean we have exercise and diet and that's great. And we have things like high FEM technology and blood flow restriction. We have various ways but I've yet to see anything as impactful as anabolic agents. For example, in the face of a wasting syndrome, can diet and exercise all you want, it's still tough.

[Guest Speaker]

Or you can eat ice cream and mayo. That's what they use.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

It's very difficult.

[Guest Speaker]

Oh, go ahead.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

And it's very difficult.

[Guest Speaker]

Yeah. No calories. I mean, lean mass requires an extreme intervention.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

And I want to point out something else is that there's testosterone. There's an androgenic to anabolic ratio. And the testosterone, while is amazing, seems to be much more androgenic. Meaning you'll see side effects in women depending on the dose, whether it's acne, hair growth, all of the things. Whereas something like Nandrolone is more anabolic and will target skeletal muscle mass more robustly. Is that fair to say?

[Guest Speaker]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's an anabolic to androgenic ratio for every product. Every androgen, every anabolic steroid measured in a very strange way. But back in the 50s, they actually were able to measure that in rats. The molecules were changed for two reasons. They were changed from testosterone to decrease metabolism in the liver. So that stays. This ester will stay longer in the body. The second reason is to increase the anabolic to androgenic ratio to make it more anabolic and less androgenic. Androgenic is the masculinizing effects that androgens can have in women. Nandrolone has a high ratio. Oxanolone have a high ratio. All of them. Some of them, obviously, the orals may have some more liver issues. That's why also, I think they got a lot of bad reputations because a lot of this data came from something called oxymetholone, which really has damaging effects on liver. We did a study here in Houston at my clinic. I had a clinic called Body Positive funded study that we had to stop because liver incidence went up fast with that product. That product is FDA approved. But what was it for? Anemia, mostly. But it's too strong of it increases. Yeah, it's all metabolized by the liver, unlike oxanolone, which is metabolized in the renal tissue and liver. That's why it's less impactful on liver function. So there's some. And meth. Oxymetholone was the one that gave that bad reputation.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

What's the other name for oxymetholone?

[Guest Speaker]

So Anadol also makes you moody and so all this the.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

And is that considered illegal? Is Anadrol illegal?

[Guest Speaker]

Anadol is FDA approved. It's just that very few people, very few prescribers prescribe it because we know it has more side effects. We did a study, we had to stop it. We have money to do the study and we stopped it halfway because of safety issues.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

And people are probably thinking, okay, well, there's the normal sex hormones, bioidentical hormones. This is not that. Right. These are compounds that are not made within the human body but are close to testosterone. Yeah, and close. These are various compounds that are very close but not the same. Because people are probably thinking, okay, well, is Nandrolone made in the human body? It's not.

[Guest Speaker]

No, no, no. They're modified molecules. Modified molecules for decreasing metabolism in the liver and for improving anabolic efficiency effects. Those are the only two reasons, you know, and testosterone. Obviously, testosterone is an anabolic agent for men and women. It's just that it has more androgenic side effects.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

Has more side effects.

[Guest Speaker]

Yeah.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

What would the next major anabolic agent be? We can move to oxandrolone now.

[Guest Speaker]

Okay.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

It's not a quiz. Do you feel that we've covered Nandrolone?

[Guest Speaker]

Yeah. And people can read a lot more. Have easily 60 pages of nandrolone on excelmail.com and by the way, I call Excel male. But women can also find information there.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

There's 28,000 women on there.

[Guest Speaker]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I should. I should change the name, but it's a catchy name that I came up with anyways. Yeah, we have a lot. People can find out more. They can Google my name. Nelson, Virgil Nandrolone. And I have a bunch of articles.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

And not to worry, we have all friends. We will put all of this so you don't have to rush and we will make sure we get that to everyone.

[Guest Speaker]

But I do like oxanerlone. I a lot is because it's oral. The anabolic to androgenic ratio is. Is better than. Even better than Andron.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

And the name is Anavar.

[Guest Speaker]

Anavar, which is a bodybuilding which many.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

Physicians will not prescribe nowadays. And you can discuss.

[Guest Speaker]

Because I can discuss that. Yeah.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

Again, some of our physician friends will and some will not.

[Guest Speaker]

I'm more than happy to discuss because I really believe somebody has to clarify the whole thing. But anyways, it was approved. It was actually created by several pharmaceuticals back in the 50s, in the 60s. And it was not used. Basically sat on the shelves. Nobody really used it. It's an oral in the 50s.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

No one used it in the 50s.

[Guest Speaker]

No, no, it wasn't really. It was kind of serle. Actually abandoned it. And this company that got really smart called BTG Pharmaceuticals. I was a consultant back in the 90s after seeing our first data on nandrolone and wasting oxandrolone or Nandrolone. They saw the data for Nandrolone. Nandrolone and they knew that there was this other compound that had been approved before. The thing about oxanol, it was approved beautifully for an indication of treatment of unintentional weight loss due to illness, blah blah, blah, et cetera, et cetera. Really was an indication related to increasing weight loss weight in people with unintentional weight loss. Couldn't be better as an indication. It really is. So they picked it up, increased the price, did a study on hiv, got it approved, got it. Orphan drug status.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

What is orphan drug status?

[Guest Speaker]

Orphan drug status is. And I can talk about it because I've worked on this a lot for HIV also is drugs is as drugs that are investigated for less than 200,000 people in the United States. People with complex diseases, genetic diseases, small populations under 200,000. That's an orphan drug. Gives you the exclusive rights, extended patent protection. You can actually charge a lot more money because it's a smaller population and it gives you more protections and it gives you tax incentives. As a pharmaceutical company, the FDA actually has a whole department that supports companies that are doing orphan drug research with orphan drugs. So it's a faster way to get approved. It is a smaller.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

And is it for. It's for a specific indication for a specific population. Oh, population, not indication.

[Guest Speaker]

An indication. Yeah, because every. You can move from indication to indication. Populations may be different. As long as it's under 200,000. 200,000 people with HIV, 200,000 multiple sclerosis, 200,000 or less of COPD. As long as 200,000 or less. So BTG Pharmaceuticals did that and they got. It was called Oxandrin, the brand name. It got popular in hiv. Why? Because it was oral. No injections. Nandrolone you can inject once a week. This is an oral everyday women. The data on women look beautiful. I was part of a study where we had women take 10 milligrams and 5 and 10 milligrams of oxenol with greatness for 12 weeks. We cycle Oxana alone for 12 weeks.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

Is there a reason?

[Guest Speaker]

There were some concerns since we didn't know any better about long term liver issues. Although every anabolic, every androgen, including higher doses of testosterone, they decrease hdl, the high density lipoprotein, which is supposed to be the better cholesterol. What most doctors don't know is that androgens in general also decrease lipoprotein A, which is wonderful.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

I actually did not know that.

[Guest Speaker]

Yeah, most people don't know that. I should write more about it.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

We did a whole episode with Christy.

[Guest Speaker]

Ballantyne Androgens, the crazy increase dramatically.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

Lp?

[Guest Speaker]

Yeah, dramatically. And that's something that I. I think I should do a better job on bringing that out.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

And for the listener, LP is a. It's a lipoprotein that is a risk factor. It's considered a genetic risk factor majority of the time. It doesn't change. It. I think it does change in women depending on hormone status. But I did this episode with Christy Ballantine, the former president of the Lipid association, and we did not talk about androgens. And from my knowledge, I didn't think that there was any medication that could.

[Guest Speaker]

I'm going to post a few things. I'm going to send you the. Yes. And we have actually, obviously I'm going to say something else here. I also.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

We're going to make sure we edit that product.

[Guest Speaker]

This can Read labs. I own a company that actually provides affordable lab testing to people around the United States. We provide the doctor's prescription so people don't have to see a doctor. But anyways, I've actually run lipoprotein A on myself and friends that use in testosterone or anandrolone. And it's dramatic baseline compared to week four or six, dramatic changes. So people say, oh, testosterone and anabolics are bad for lipids because there's a decrease in hdl, but there's also a huge decrease in triglycerides.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

Is there a way to bring up HDL and is that necessarily meaningful?

[Guest Speaker]

Yeah, good question. I was hoping you didn't ask me that question because it's very complex but very hard to bring HDL up. Niacin, maybe, but that doesn't work and studies are kind of conflicting.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

But is it meaningful that it would be?

[Guest Speaker]

Well, we have only one or two studies where they use agents to increase hdl and they did, but actually mortality did not change. So their jury is still up. I would not put down. I will not go into that side of the conspiracy or whatever it is to say HDL is useless. But we only have data on products that increase HDL and no benefit in mortality or longevity. So the fact that anabolics decrease HDL by maybe sometimes 20%, is that significant? I don't know.

[Nelson Virgil]

Thank you to One Skin for sponsoring this episode. I bring sponsors of products that I personally love and use. I first became obsessed with One Skin because of one of my girlfriends. Her skin completely transformed, especially under her eyes, which I definitely have issues with. And I wanted to know what she was doing. And it was One Skin. I've always had Issues with texture on my own face. And I've tried a million and a half different products. I landed on one skin. It's really helped me personally transform my skin. I've been using their face broad spectrum sunscreen, their eye cream, their topical body supplement. I actually need more of that. It has a unique, clinically studied peptide that helps with DNA repair. You can get 15% off your one skin with the code oneskin.com. and the code is Dr. Lyon. That's 15% off one skin with the code DrLion.

[Guest Speaker]

All I know is that they decrease triglycerides dramatically. They decrease lipoprotein. A ldl depends on the dose. So on the lipid side, I re. And. And you can run a whole lipid profile with like, you know, like. Like cardio.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

We do it all the time.

[Guest Speaker]

You know, the.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

So we. I don't know if you know this, but we have a full concierge medical practice.

[Guest Speaker]

Oh, no, I know that you are on top of everything. I mean, you wrote books.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

No, no, no. I have a great team.

[Guest Speaker]

No, I know, I know. This is all like, you know, you know, that stuff. I'm just like.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

No, it's the thing. The listener really needs to understand that these are. It's not just one point. So it's not. Okay, your testosterone is up now. We've impacted your hdl, which is down. But it's this spectrum of what is your vascular health. Lp, ldl, cholesterol, apob.

[Guest Speaker]

Apob.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

These things all ride hand in hand. The Anavar or oxandrolone. So is Anavar the black market name or is that a. Because, again, you hear in the bodybuilding space.

[Guest Speaker]

Yeah, I tend to discourage my audience to use either the word deca or.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

Okay, is it because it.

[Guest Speaker]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, those are bodybuilding terms. If we want to move this field forward, we need to let go of all that. All that branding. Besides, they're generic. We shouldn't be calling them by brand name.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

It would be the equivalent of calling band aid. Wait, what is the name for a band aid? It's a bandage. Bandage. See? See, you shouldn't call everything a band.

[Guest Speaker]

Or a copy of Xerox, you know, copier. We shouldn't be associating those brand names anymore anyways. But let's say oxenolone. Okay, It's Oxenolone available. Is it legal? Is it.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

Why would someone use it? It's an oral agent. You said between 5 and 10 milligrams.

[Guest Speaker]

For women.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

For women a day for 12 weeks. And that would do what for them increase lean body mass, skeletal muscle or all lean mass.

[Guest Speaker]

Lean mass.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

So that would be liver and.

[Guest Speaker]

Yes, but yeah, whatever. All the data we have on DEXA is obviously lean mass. The ones in.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

And why are we saying this? We are saying this because we're not really great at measuring skeletal muscle mass directly. Lean mass includes everything except for.

[Guest Speaker]

And I believe everybody that has access or can buy a DEXA totally should get a DEXA. And their companies now providing cheap DEXAs. I just got a DEXA for six seventy dollars here in Houston. Amazing DEXA scan, which is the only way to really find out how much lean mass, fat mass and bone density you have in every part of your body. And you can Google Dexa, whatever city you are in. DEXA fit. There are a few companies that are doing that without a prescription. Thank God. Anyways. Because that's really the only way to find out where your body composition is. We used to do bias.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

Yeah.

[Guest Speaker]

But BIA is water dependent, you know. So anyways, I still like BIA.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

Depending.

[Guest Speaker]

Well, it's easy. And you can do it 3 to 5%. You can do it, right?

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

Yes, I can.

[Guest Speaker]

You don't need a $400,000 machine. So it's. We used to do most of our data on waste. It was bcm, body cell mass from bias back then.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

Yeah, fascinating.

[Guest Speaker]

Yeah. But anyways, I'm getting digressed. I'm so sorry.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

We are regressing to. We are forward grassing to Oxanderlone.

[Guest Speaker]

Yeah. Okay. So it was approved obviously was used till whatever Till a few years ago, the pharmaceutical company, the last one because exchange hands three times, dropped it. 90 was dropped by Organon two years ago. Pharma said no, not enough money on this or whatever it is. Maybe their own stigma. And then compounding pharmacies. That's how companies pharmacies came into my life because they took over and say we'll make it for you. Because people in HIV were actually freaking out that nandrolone had been dropped.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

And why did they drop it?

[Guest Speaker]

They had no reason. There's no safety issues, nothing. They just decide it's a market probably decision. So obviously compounding is compounding and the same thing. Three years ago, two years ago the company dropped it completely. Just dropped it.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

They did issue something. January 2023. Was it 2023. Where they said.

[Guest Speaker]

But the FDA said it was a safety issue and they referred to a 1984 meeting.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

Okay, let's clear this up right now.

[Guest Speaker]

That 1984 meeting was really established to create. To come up with the Anabolic Steroid Control Act. That's the beginning of all these nightmares.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

Okay, so this is a little conspiracy theorist and we're going to talk about it.

[Guest Speaker]

Not really conspiracy theorist. There's no conspiracy.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

But basically many providers will not write for Oxanderlone because of safety issues. Alleged safety issues. So if you were to go to up to date it'll say June 2023, maybe 24. 2023. We are issuing a warning against Oxanderlone for liver toxicity.

[Guest Speaker]

Yes.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

And many of the providers were like well that's sucks because this was helping treat postmenopausal women for sarcopenia. This was treating bone density, this was helpful in injury, this is helpful in adjunct treatment for obesity. And what you're saying is they determined that statement? Why would anyone do that based on a 1980 study?

[Guest Speaker]

1984, yes. They have no data. No data. We have a lot of data. Actually. I send a letter to the FDA summarizing all the data safety data because they're all public on all the studies done on Xanalon and even in pediatrics they didn't see substantial. It was in some cases liver enzymes like ASD and ALT will go up temporarily. Temporarily and then will resolve to baseline after stopping because these things are not used continuously. That's something else that most people don't understand. We cycle Oxane for 12 weeks, gain all the benefits that we can work out, eat well, all this stuff and then we move on. This is not a constant long term use in pediatrics in women and men. Nobody does that. Some people may do it. But to actually say and only to have that reference, 1984, which was a discussion, a meeting, even a study. None of the studies have said that roxanolone is liver toxic. None of them. They also say minimal liver enzyme or LD elevations that were resolved with treatment cessation. So there's nothing like that. This is basically one person at the FDA not going to say the name, although it is on the, on the notice, don't say the name. That actually had the stigma. The pharmaceutical company dropped it and she actually added that statement. And the only reference she has since 1984. The drug has been used in many studies since then, all kinds. Kids, women, men, hiv, non hiv, cop.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

So now what do people do?

[Guest Speaker]

Well, compound is not removed from the compound. Do not compound or compound list. So it can be compounded. Once again, nandrolone, it's compounded because organon left is compounded and power pharmacy makes it. It's legal, it's not removed, it's still on the list that it can be compounded. At least now if they remove it from that list, the activist in me will wake up again and activate all my HIV patients that actually will be behind this because we have good data. We used in HIV a lot and we have Liverpool. We're taking liver toxic HIV meds with this.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

It's wild. How many times a year could someone utilize an oral agent like that?

[Guest Speaker]

Just two cycles of 12 weeks each.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

And what would they expect if you were on a very low dose for let's say for women. So you have tens of thousands of women on, you know, in your forums. If there's a 5, 5 milligram or.

[Guest Speaker]

10 milligram dose, I would assume those women are exercising. Yeah, both. Let's just make presence exercise and cardio. They do. Otherwise you're wasting your time.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

Yes.

[Guest Speaker]

And eating more of a high protein.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

Never heard of that.

[Guest Speaker]

But sure, let's assume because otherwise really why. Why even take anything without doing it the way you, you know, comprehensively. Yeah. They would increase that would probably become more lean.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

Do we have an idea of how many pounds of muscle in.

[Guest Speaker]

It's not in the data I've seen is 3.3.5 kilos. You know everything in clinical is kilos. How Many is that?

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

2.2. Multiply that.

[Guest Speaker]

8. 8. 8 pounds or 7 pounds of muscle. You know how hard it is to get seven pounds of muscle?

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

I do. As a matter of fact I'm. I've been trying for.

[Guest Speaker]

Oh no, you're lean and you're. You, you. You're in the perfect shape. Obviously we all have to have.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

I paid him to say that guy slipped him a 10.

[Guest Speaker]

You're the muscle expert.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

So I am the. So they took it off. They didn't take it off the market but they issued this warning and then really all physicians for the most part stop. Would you say that most physicians stop prescribing it because of that statement?

[Guest Speaker]

Most, most physicians stop prescribing it because they don't know is available in compounding from compounding because. Yeah, yeah. And that. That I am trying to get the compounding pharmacies to be more. And you know you can Google compound oxanelone, oxal, Sandra Loan Empower Pharmacy is there.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

But they shouldn't take. And if someone is listening to this, they should not be experimenting with any of these things. Well, first of all, I believe in body autonomy. I believe people should be able to do what they want with their body.

[Guest Speaker]

Me too.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

Also I do believe that you should be under the Guidance and the protection, as much as possible, of a physician that you trust.

[Guest Speaker]

Yes.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

And have a relationship with. It is not a new doctor every time you go to the clinic. You know, that is one thing that we have set up very strict in our clinic is you have a provider. You see your provider because they get to know you and the history.

[Guest Speaker]

They remember your history.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

Of course, they need to know your favorite color, what kind of dog food your dog likes, whatever it is. But. So if you are listening to this and you're thinking, you know what? I have been struggling with? Perimenopause, menopause. I cannot put on muscle to save my life. I want to try an anabolic agent. Please do not go online and try to purchase something on your own without the guidance of a physician. I think that's a terrible idea. Would you. Unless you are desperate. Well, but even then, yeah, right. We do not live in the same. We don't live in the same world that you actually survived in your 20s.

[Guest Speaker]

And the hardest thing, and I have to add the hardest thing right now is access. Because people don't know where to go. And that really is the biggest barrier. And I see it online on my forums. The main question they ask is, hey, guys or ladies, I'm having this issue. I can't find a doctor or the ones that I have found dismiss me or tell me it's all in my head or whatever. I don't want to prescribe, where should I go? Or that's a number one reason why people come to groups online, Reddit everywhere. And that's when people say, hey, I'm getting it from this doctor, that doctor. So doctors are out there. It's just very difficult. Very difficult. I say, unless you know how to access, how to. Let me just add one more thing I have to do.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

Yes, of course.

[Guest Speaker]

Google has changed. Google in the past five years has changed dramatically. When you Google anything, the first page is full of ads. And you don't get like, my forums used to be on the first page. Now they're in the third page. They have moved all sites that are not paying for ads to the second or third page. Things that were in the first page five, six years ago. Believe me, I've been on the Internet since 94, right when it started. And I paid Google for ads for discountrail apps. So people are not finding those groups right away. And they obviously, nobody clicks into a second or third page of a Google search.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

I do.

[Guest Speaker]

Well, you do because you're a researcher. But most people want to find their Results there. I say to people, always search inside Facebook because there are groups galore. I belong. I run four. They're discussing daily always. Reddit is. I know people think Reddit is crazy. Google just bought Reddit, by the way. But Reddit is a good source. Google there or Reddit search there. Women and men excel mail, obviously. Because if you go through Google just to find a doctor that prescribes oxanalone or whatever, you're not going to find it unless that doctor is paying for ads.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

Yeah. And also I will say if you guys need referrals, always contact our clinic. We have doctors that we trust that we can refer you to. Also, isn't there other search engines that are not vpn? You know, I was just talking. I was just on the Sean Ryan show and he if you look at his youtubes you will see all kinds of ways around any kind of blocked access. So he's probably a good resource.

[Guest Speaker]

They My husband use I use Perplexity. I I do. I want to plug purpose here. I'm not getting paid Perplexity.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

We're not plugging it.

[Guest Speaker]

Not plugging it.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

I have to use it first. Don't try.

[Guest Speaker]

If you listen, maybe I could ship like Perplexity is better than Chat GPT. You can download the Perplexity app and you can ask Perplexity goes into detail. You.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

I can't comment on the quality of that yet.

[Guest Speaker]

Well, yeah, you will. But even I, I shop on Perplexity. I don't, I don't use. I don't use Google search. Anyways, we're digressing again. So what, what else have we.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

I want to know if there was a difference between we talked about Nandrolone. We've talked about Nandrolone in men and women. Primary component of that will be. It is more anabolic. Nandrolone. We'll start with Nandrolone. Nandrolone is injectable from your perspective, anything above 150. I think there are various numbers in the data. It should be it's typically 50% of a male testosterone dose for a man. And for women, again, typically for women it's one, you know, tenth of a so for if testosterone is say 100, then maybe it would be 10 milligrams of nandrolone. Again, it depends if you're a provider listening. Obviously we're not giving medical advice, but I think the exploration is to always start low for individuals. An individual could stay on Nandrolone as opposed to cycle something like Oxanderlone. From my understanding, at low dose.

[Guest Speaker]

Yeah.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

At Low dose oxandrolone is taken orally, had a little issue in 2023. Still available. The clinical indications are FDA approved for anything related to muscle loss.

[Nelson Virgil]

Right.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

Is that what it is?

[Guest Speaker]

Unintentional weight loss due to illness. And you can. There are like five commas after that.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

Fascinating. Yeah, fascinating. Which would have a bigger impact on body composition, which would make you leaner.

[Guest Speaker]

No.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

Oxanalone, Oxanderlone, yes, the oral agent. What about the dose for men?

[Guest Speaker]

For oxanalone for men? Yeah. We studied 20 milligrams a day in HIV heavily and it was good enough, 20 milligrams.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

And for the perspective, HIV is a highly catabolic state. High catabolic state, I mean, you're talking about.

[Guest Speaker]

And back then we had viral load. We were. We did not have a control of the virus. The virus. The virus eats up lean body mass, muscle mass, the immune system. When it activates fighting a virus, it needs nutrients. And where the nutrients come from, they come from muscle.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

Muscle.

[Guest Speaker]

So that's why the more muscle you have, the more chances for longevity.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

And we see that with cancer. Actually you have something like 260% greater risk of death if you go into cancer with sarcopenia and aging.

[Guest Speaker]

Like sarcopenia due to aging.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

Yes.

[Guest Speaker]

Yeah, yeah. But anyways, yeah, on 20.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

So you were saying 20.

[Guest Speaker]

Yeah, yeah. 20 milligrams is what we studied. You can, you know, compounders are making up to 50 milligrams, you know, one pill, so. But the higher the dose, there are two consequences. HDL reductions are bigger and some liver enzymes. Let's talk about liver enzymes real quick.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

Oh, I'd love to.

[Guest Speaker]

There's good data on the effect of resistance exercise on increasing asdl. Some doctors don't know that and they freak out a little bit and they don't know it's due to the resistance exercise program that this patient is going through. Because I sell blood tests, I've seen for 10 years what's happening on that world. Something else that doctors don't know. Nandrolone, testosterone, for instance, that if you use the wrong testosterone test, nandrolone will be picked up as testosterone.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

Tell me more about that.

[Guest Speaker]

There are two types of testosterone tests. Immunoassays, which are cheaper, faster. The ones that have been used for many years, they're still used because of that, cheaper and faster. But they get interferences that immunoassay anything that's androgen, like that is like testosterone, will pick it up as testosterone. So anandrolone, you know, testosterone in a.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

Blood test versus A urine test. Right. So this is.

[Guest Speaker]

Yeah. You do urine, huh?

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

We don't. We. So our clinic we do free total. We do.

[Guest Speaker]

If you do liquid chromatography, slash mass spectrometry which is the only thing you know, I, I sell that test for $40. Then you pick up what? Testosterone. Testosterone. Testosterone. So the nandrolone. Sometimes I see that where doctors are using the immunoassay and obviously getting a 2000 nanograms of testosterone result and freaking out, hey, your dose is too high. When in fact is you're picking up like for instance biotin, which is a supplement that men and women use for. There's conflicting data for hair growth or hair loss. Also affects immunoassays is picked up and either decreases or increases depending on the thyroid or testosterone. So there's supplements that can affect the test results.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

Can someone test for nandrolone directly in the blood?

[Guest Speaker]

No, that's only used in sports. That's non clinical but research based. Yeah, yeah, but they do use it in the Olympics and.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

Yeah, but one would also expect to see a decrease in FSH or LH in women for suppression. So if you haven't.

[Guest Speaker]

We haven't talked about that. Yeah, all anabolics or androgen. Testosterone basically shut down your hypothalamic pituitary gonadal which is ovaries or test. So you basically stop producing testosterone, stop producing LH and fsh sperm production decreases dramatically. Ovulation is affected for women.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

So if you are wanting to get.

[Guest Speaker]

Pregnant, that's one of the things that. Yeah, that's one of the side effects that have to be managed the best, especially in younger people that want to have kids. And that's when we can talk about HCG and clomiphene. But yeah, I don't know if you want to go into. But I'm more than happy to.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

We'll have you back on talk about that.

[Guest Speaker]

Fertility is definitely impacted.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

Fertility is impacted. And also if a woman is in perimenopause menopause, if you shut down her fsh lh, you're not really going to be able to see because estrogen can be all over the place. It just again, if you're trying to identify where you are, just keep in mind that if you are using these agents, even testosterone will decrease FSH and lh. Nelson, you said something really interesting about liver enzymes and AST alt. We do see occasionally go up during intensive exercise and oftentimes people that don't treat athletes or people that are very active they might get Concerned physicians might get concerned. And also, to be fair, we're not talking about two and a half times baseline liver enzymes. We're talking, I don't know, might bump up into the 50s or so. And I'm sure you see that a lot.

[Guest Speaker]

Yeah, yeah. And that's, that's the concern I have sometimes when, like you said, doctors are not really familiar with, you know, the athletic use, you know, athletics and people using other compounds like this, like anabolics, the fact that exercise can be, you know, an influence on FDs, health, liver and science, liver. But, you know, there's also another test that I also sell on discount labs because it's a, it's a good test, is a, is a test that really tells you precisely if you have liver toxicity, besides bilirubin, which is another one ggt. And, and most doctors don't even use that when they see an increase, let's say 20%, 30% beyond baseline. They just discontinued the treatment.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

The medication.

[Guest Speaker]

The medication. And in fact, you should go a little deeper before you do so, especially with androgens and do GT the same thing with kidney function. Most of the athletes I know, including myself, I take it daily. They're taking creatine, creatine monohydrate, which has been shown to all kinds of benefits, and creatine can increase egfr, which is a measure of kidney function. Doctors freak out, too, without really running another test like cystatin C to see whether or not it's influenced by supplements. There's a few studies I've seen where physicians or the researchers have decided to stop a treatment based on just ASD or egfrs.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

And that's where I'm glad that you're bringing this up, because from there is this idea of indications for disease. Physicians are trained to look at patterns of blood work because typical disease patterns will show up in a particular way in blood work. And then there's this interesting aspect of those that are in the athletic population or people that are moving their body a ton or have higher muscle mass. You will see those individuals have higher blood level, creatinine. And what I hear often is patients will come in and say, oh, my gosh, I'm nervous. My creatinine is high. Well, your muscle mass is high. Your creatinine should be high. And the way that you get a really good picture is you run something called a cystatin C and then you'll.

[Nelson Virgil]

Get a corrected gfr.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

So if you are out there and you are looking at your own blood work and you're worried about your creatinine and your kidney function, please take a deeper dive. And also if you are looking at your standard liver enzymes like AST or alt, one could also do something called a GGT or a bilirubin test. And I think that those are a little pearls in medicine. We have the medical pearls for individuals that are highly active or really optimizing their muscle mass. Well, Nelson, Virgil, I have learned so much from you. You really, again, you occupy a very unique place in society and place in this industry in the way that you have been there. You know that saying, been there, done that.

[Guest Speaker]

Thank you.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

You have been there, done that and it really was life or death for you. And because of that, you have advocated and saved countless lives.

[Guest Speaker]

Thank you.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

And I also believe that your work is not done.

[Guest Speaker]

Yeah.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

And the next iteration of your work, I'm just going to throw you to the fire, I think has to be to bring anabolics to the public.

[Guest Speaker]

I agree. I agree. And I see it coming. I also see more infringement of the FDA and other regulatory agencies on access, compounding, Access of compounded products. HRT may be affected in the future for women. Hormones in General. There are 11 hormones on the list that may actually be stopped from being compounded.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

Really?

[Guest Speaker]

Yes. And obviously that's another topic we can talk about in another podcast. But preparing my activist efforts to activate all the groups I have the thousands of people that are following on my groups in case that happens. Because access to hormones, I would say more than 60%, 70% of patients that are accessing hormone treatments are accessing it through compounded products and not just pharmaceutical grade products because they're usually more expensive, they require more. That's something I'm really preparing myself for because I see it coming. Hopefully, who knows with this administration, but the access to hormonal treatments, affordable homeowner treatments, may be affected by decisions from legislators that really have stigma in their heads or also have the interest of the pharmaceutical companies funding them. I'm sorry that I just dropped this at the end, but it is the future. It is the future that I think it's for me, at least for my work.

[Dr. Gabrielle Lyon]

I will say I love that you're right on many things and I hope this is not one of them. And I hope that hormone replacement therapy and hormones in general remain accessible to the public through compounding pharmacies, which are much lower cost and just as high quality. So again, Nelson, Virgil, thank you so much for coming on. We will link everywhere where to find you and all of your books and your forums. And again, thank you so much.

[Guest Speaker]

Thank you for having me.

[Nelson Virgil]

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