Why Do Most Diets Fail? The Science of Nutrient Deficiencies | Ty Beal PhD

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Why Do Most Diets Fail? The Science of Nutrient Deficiencies | Ty Beal PhD"

Introduction to Global Nutrition Challenges

In this insightful episode of The Dr. Gabrielle Lyon Show, host Dr. Gabrielle Lyon engages with Dr. Ty Beal, PhD, the Head of Food Systems Data and Analytics at the Global Alliance for Improved Nutrition (GAIN). The conversation centers on the pervasive issue of nutrient deficiencies worldwide, the impact of ultra-processed foods, and the complexities of the global food system.

Understanding Micronutrient Deficiencies Worldwide

Dr. Beal opens the discussion by highlighting the staggering statistics of micronutrient deficiencies:

"3 billion people worldwide can't afford a healthy diet. What happens in Sub-Saharan Africa and South Asia and many countries, they're going to be micronutrient deficient." [00:24]

He explains that in low-income regions, the primary concern is insufficient caloric intake and lack of food diversity, leading to widespread micronutrient deficiencies. Interestingly, Dr. Beal points out that even in high-income countries like the US and the UK, significant portions of the population suffer from deficiencies:

"In countries like the US and the UK, one in three, one in two women can be deficient in one or more micronutrients." [06:30]

Key Micronutrients at Risk

The conversation delves into specific micronutrients commonly deficient across various populations:

• Iron: Particularly prevalent among women, leading to anemia and fatigue.

  "20% of women in the UK and the US are deficient in iron." [06:28]

• Vitamin D and B12: Essential for bone health and neurological function.

  "Vitamin D is also very prevalent." [06:28]

• Zinc and Folate: Critical for immune function and fetal development.

  "About 20% of women are inadequate in folate." [08:24]

Dr. Beal emphasizes that micronutrient deficiencies can have profound effects, especially during critical life stages such as pregnancy and early childhood:

"If you don't get the right nutrition during that phase, it's hard to catch up." [10:35]

Root Causes of Nutrient Deficiencies

Dr. Beal identifies several factors contributing to widespread nutrient deficiencies:

1. Economic Constraints: In many parts of the world, affordability limits access to diverse and nutritious foods.

2. Food System Interconnections: Actions in one region, such as the US, have global implications on food availability and nutrient distribution.

3. Agricultural Practices: Modern farming prioritizes yield and shelf-life over nutrient density, leading to crops with lower micronutrient content.

   "We started breeding crops for nutrient value only recently, which means we've taken out a lot of the nutrition in foods." [17:48]

4. Ultra-Processed Foods: High consumption of these foods in high-income countries contributes to nutrient deficiencies despite high caloric intake.

   "In our diets today in the U.S., 60-70% of our calories come from multi-processed foods." [17:48]

Consequences of Micronutrient Deficiencies

The impact of deficiencies extends beyond immediate health concerns:

• Child Development: Deficiencies during the first thousand days (pregnancy and the first two years of life) can stunt physical and cognitive growth.

  "These can be lifelong. In pregnancy, the woman's nutritional status really has a big impact on the fetus." [09:35]

• Productivity and Cognitive Function: In adults, deficiencies can lead to reduced energy levels and impaired cognitive performance.

Addressing the Problem: Solutions and Recommendations

Dr. Beal offers a multi-faceted approach to combat micronutrient deficiencies:

1. Dietary Diversity: Emphasizes the importance of a varied diet rich in whole, minimally processed foods.

   "Eating a diversity of minimally processed whole foods... can go a long way." [65:59]

2. Fortification and Supplementation: Acts as safety nets, especially in regions where certain nutrients are hard to obtain from local diets.

   "Fortification is especially useful in certain cases where nutrients are hard to obtain from food." [20:15]

3. Agricultural Reforms: Advocates for biofortified crops and sustainable farming practices that enhance nutrient density.

   "We're starting to breed crops for higher nutrient content, like high iron and zinc." [50:23]

4. Policy Changes: Suggests government-level interventions such as improving food procurement systems in schools and hospitals to ensure healthier meals.

   "Changing the procurement... can have a big impact. Public procurement is a key lever." [57:39]

5. Education and Environment: Highlights the need for nutrition education and creating food environments that naturally encourage healthier choices.

   "Changing the environment is crucial because if all the foods around us are unhealthy, it's hard to make better choices." [56:19]

The Role of Diet Composition

The discussion touches on the balance between plant-based and animal-based diets. Dr. Beal suggests that a moderate inclusion of animal source foods can significantly improve nutrient absorption and overall diet quality:

"Aiming for about a third of calories from animal source foods is a good target to make sure you have your nutrient needs met." [52:15]

He also notes that while plant-based diets can be healthy, they require careful planning to avoid deficiencies, particularly in iron, B12, and zinc due to lower bioavailability in plant sources.

Challenges in Changing Dietary Patterns

Dr. Beal acknowledges the difficulties in shifting global dietary trends, especially given the pervasive influence of the food industry:

"The food industry wants people to buy their products. They have food chemists that design these foods to be addicting." [56:19]

He remains cautiously optimistic, citing bipartisan attention in the US as a hopeful sign for future policy reforms targeting ultra-processed foods.

Global Food Systems and Sustainability

The conversation extends to the sustainability of global food systems, highlighting the environmental impact of current agricultural practices. Dr. Beal advocates for:

• Sustainable Livestock Production: Utilizing land unsuitable for crops for grazing to maintain biodiversity and ecosystem health.

  "Each ecosystem is tailored to a different type of food production. Grasslands are suitable for ruminants." [44:15]

• Reducing Food Waste: Addressing the high rates of food waste, which contribute to environmental degradation through methane emissions.

  "We waste at least a third of our food, leading to methane production from decomposition." [69:03]

Practical Action Steps for Listeners

To empower listeners to combat micronutrient deficiencies, Dr. Beal provides actionable recommendations:

1. Limit Ultra-Processed Foods: Aim to keep these to less than 10% of caloric intake.

   "Restrict ultra processed foods. Less than 10% of calories should come from them." [65:59]

2. Reduce Refined Carbohydrates and Fats: Avoid foods like white bread, croissants, and other refined products that can undermine nutrient intake.

   "Limit refined carbs and fats to prevent havoc on nutrient absorption." [66:25]

3. Increase Whole Food Diversity: Incorporate a wide range of minimally processed foods to ensure adequate nutrient intake.

   "Eat a variety of minimally processed whole foods." [65:59]

4. Monitor Nutrient Status: Regularly check biomarkers like iron levels, especially for high-risk groups such as women and older adults.

   "It's really important for women in particular to check your iron status." [15:44]

5. Support Local and Sustainable Farming: Whenever possible, choose locally sourced foods to enhance community support and reduce environmental impact.

   "Eating locally supports the community and can connect you with the food production process." [67:59]

Conclusion: A Call to Action for Healthier Eating Habits

Dr. Gabrielle Lyon and Dr. Ty Beal conclude the episode by emphasizing the urgent need to address micronutrient deficiencies through systemic changes and individual dietary choices. By understanding the root causes and implementing practical solutions, listeners can become champions of their own health and contribute to a healthier global community.

"The path to longevity, energy, and resilience isn't just about living longer. It's about living stronger, living better." [70:07]

Key Takeaways:

• Micronutrient deficiencies are a global crisis affecting both low-income and high-income countries, though manifesting differently.

• Dietary diversity and whole foods are essential in preventing deficiencies, contrasted with the high consumption of ultra-processed foods that mask calorie intake but not nutrient quality.

• Systemic changes in food production, policy reform, and education are necessary to create environments that support healthy eating habits.

• Individual actions, such as monitoring nutrient intake and making informed dietary choices, play a crucial role in combating nutrient deficiencies.

This episode serves as a comprehensive guide to understanding the complex interplay between global food systems, nutrient deficiencies, and public health, offering both scientific insights and practical advice for fostering a healthier world.

Transcript

[A]

Everyone's talking about making America healthy again. But we can't fix the system if we don't understand the root cause. Today's guest, Thai Beal, is one of the most respected researchers in global nutrition. And he's here to reveal how ultra processed foods, nutrient deficiencies and food misinformation are quietly sabotaging the health of millions.

[B]

3 billion people worldwide can't afford a healthy diet. What happens in sub Saharan Africa and South Asia and many countries, they're going to be micronutrient deficient. So they're just struggling to get their energy needs.

[A]

If we want to reverse this crisis, this is where we start. Dr. Ty Beal, welcome to the show.

[B]

Thanks for having me.

[A]

So you are head of food systems data and analytics at the gain, which is Global alliance for Improved Nutrition. And the reason I wanted you to come on the show is number one, you are deeply respected by your colleagues. So that means you are a great and humble scientist. And one of the things that you offer uniquely to the listener or the viewer is you are very interested in global nutrition. And I think as Americans or just individuals in their perspective or prospective countries, that they are really micro focused on their close demographic. But you bring it all together.

[B]

Yeah, that's right. It's really hard to get an understanding of what your situation is in the context of the whole globe. But it really does vary. And one thing that's important to know is that the whole food system is interconnected and everything that we do in the US has big implications for the rest of the world.

[A]

Which is kind of unusual to think because in our microcosm we're fighting over should we be carnivore, should we be vegan or vegetarian? And in essence, that's a conversation of luxury.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

And excess. How is it in the rest of the world?

[B]

You know, a lot of people don't have the choice about what they eat. You know, we have that luxury, like you said in the US and in many high income contexts where you get to choose. So we may have access to nutrient supplements, the diversity of foods, really anything that we can get our hands on. The issue for us is more about how do we restrict what we eat, not eat too much. In many countries, people don't have enough food. So just getting enough food. There's almost a billion people worldwide that go to bed hungry at night. That's a huge challenge, just the ability of being able to afford food. What happens in Sub Saharan Africa and South Asia? Many countries, people just consume the cheapest food they can. It's usually the most common staple. Maybe it's rice, maybe it's corn. And so people don't have a diversity of foods. They're going to be micronutrient deficient. They're going to be lacking just enough calories in general. And so they're just struggling to get their energy needs met. So the last thing on their mind is really, am I getting the right mix of these food groups? And the micronutrients, they just trying to fill their bellies.

[A]

And it's a really unusual way to think about it for us here. I'm curious, how did you get interested in that, in this topic of global nutrition?

[B]

Yeah. Well, so I had a personal story of nutrition, like many people have. I had ailments from traveling. I had parasites and issues with food intolerances that plagued me severely. And I ended up changing my diet and addressing everything just on my own, without any sort of background in nutrition. And so I got fascinated by the idea that, wow, what I eat can have a big difference on how I feel and my health. So I got into nutrition, studying nutrition because of that. And I've always sort of had a passion for helping people who have needs that aren't being met. So people who can't get enough food, people don't have enough food and water, shelter, basic needs. And so I was sort of drawn to this global aspect where we can intervene and try to have sustainable mechanisms of helping people get healthy and get access to food. So I started by a graduate program in geography and nutrition at UC Davis.

[A]

So you were always interested in traveling?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And when you traveled, did you see people that were going hungry in just conditions that you weren't prepared to see?

[B]

Yeah. I mean, from an early age, I had done several trips to Mexico, and I remember seeing children living in really poor conditions without electricity, like wooden brick houses with barely any sort of ceiling from the weather and protection, lack of access to food and clean water. And so for me, getting basic needs met is really important. And I was just interested in how can I help bring the science of food, nutrition, and the whole food system to make changes across the world. That's what kind of drew me into it.

[A]

Yeah. I was listening to one of your lectures, and there's a handful of numbers that really struck me, and it was that two out of three women of reproductive age are deficient in one or more of the micronutrients, and that one in two preschool children and children in general are deficient also in one or more of a micronutrient that Seems very counterintuitive in the world that we live in, because I don't know about you, but if you go on social media you will hear that the only people that have to worry about micronutrient deficiencies are those that don't get enough.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, it's really, it's counter to what people think. You know, we don't, we don't really think about, oh, am I going to get all the nutrients I need from my diet? It's usually just a matter of what foods do I want to eat or am I getting enough calories? I'm not getting too much. So in low income context, people really struggle because they don't have a diversity of foods. These people want to consume a bunch of different foods. They want to have animal sourced foods, they want to have fruits and vegetables. They're often completely unaffordable. 3 billion people worldwide can't afford a healthy diet.

[A]

3 billion people, 3 billion people cannot afford a healthy diet.

[B]

That's nearly half the population.

[A]

That's, I mean, that's unacceptable.

[B]

Yeah, completely. So it's just, yeah, it's a major issue. And this translates into deficiencies. Right. So even if you can meet your caloric needs, you can get enough food, it doesn't mean you're actually getting your micronutrient needs met. And so in some contexts, in South Asia and sub Saharan Africa, certain countries, nine in 10 women are deficient in at least one micronutrient. That's just incredible. The vast majority are deficient. And I think what's also surprising to a lot of people is that this doesn't exist only in the low income context. In countries like the US and the UK, one in three, one in two women can be deficient in one or more micronutrients. So things like iron. 20% of women in the UK and the US are deficient in iron. Vitamin D is also very prevalent. So it's an issue that I think needs a lot of attention drawn to it. And I'm interested to know, how is this going to translate with this Make America Healthy Again movement? Are people going to start paying attention to this issue more?

[A]

When you think about micronutrient deficiencies, are there a handful that seem to be overwhelmingly in the top spots? I know that you had mentioned iron and in previous lectures, potentially zinc and vitamin A. Are there a handful of, of micronutrients that we seem to be deficient in? Maybe start with the US and then choose a different country. And I think that the follow up question, which I Suppose I'll ask after is what would a solution be to those?

[B]

Sure. So in the us, iron deficiency is very common among women. Vitamin D is common. We see data on diets and nutrient intakes showing that choline is, is very lacking. We know that it's a challenge to get adequate intake of magnesium, potassium, so certain nutrients.

[A]

Shocking, by the way, that you have just rattled off. I think four or so, which is shocking because we have such an excess of food. Raging obesity and overweight epidemic.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. And it really just varies by the population. So in the uk, you can add folate. You can add folate to that list. About 20% of women are inadequate in folate. Now, in other contexts we see vitamin B12, also an issue in populations where they have limited access to animal source foods. We see zinc, like you mentioned. I think if you're going to look at a handful of nutrients, I think iron, zinc, vitamin D, folate, calcium is often lacking as well.

[A]

I mean, it's surprising. And I think the next question is obviously how to fix it, but what would the outcome be? So, for example, if a woman is anemic, the outcome from what I've seen is fatigue, challenges with growth. I mean, we didn't even talk about children. But if a child grows up iron deficient, can that stunt their growth and their brain development?

[B]

Yeah. So there are these critical life stages where deficiencies can have really lasting effects. These can be lifelong. In pregnancy, the woman's nutritional status really has a big impact on the fetus and the developing baby that's born even through lactation. What happens is if a baby is born to a mother that is malnourished, they're going to start off behind already low birth weight, they're going to be lacking already in growth nutrient deficiencies throughout the early childhood period, especially the 6 to 23 months, iron deficiencies, zinc deficiency, they can stunt the growth and the development. It's not just a physical thing, but it actually can stunt the cognitive capacity, educational performance. What's the problem is that the fastest phase of growth is during that early childhood period.

[A]

So the first thousand. Is it the first thousand days?

[B]

Yeah, they call it the thousand days because it's the period of pregnancy and then the two years after that. And if you don't get the right nutrition during that phase, it's hard to catch up.

[A]

And are those individuals at risk for not having the. So I guess we're talking about the mom and then the baby. Is that seen across the globe? Is it us? Because if 20% of women are iron deficient, that means they're going into pregnancy. Iron deficient 20%. Is that also the same in Asia and other countries?

[B]

Yeah, the effects in the US are much subtler and much more nuanced and it's hard to always see in other countries it can be very dramatic. So you have this, you have these repeated infections from unclean water, unsanitary conditions.

[A]

Parasites worldwide are probably the number one cause of iron deficiency anemia, at least up there.

[B]

Yeah, it's one of the top causes. And that paired with poor nutrition, it just wreaks havoc. It just prevents the body from being able to recover. You're repeatedly getting sick. When a child is sick, they can't really eat the amount of foods that they should be eating. And so you really have this challenge where you can't, you can't get the nutrients you need for brain development, for bone development, for body, for growth. And it really has these lasting effects. So in other countries, especially in lower income context, it really does set a child up for challenges through their life.

[A]

You said something that I thought was interesting. In the US it's more nuanced. It seems as if these deficiencies are more subtle and, and is it because of choice. For example, a young woman who goes on TikTok or Instagram and she reads that she should become vegan, for example, where perhaps her whole life she was an omnivore and she goes and she watches a video, she has the ability to then change what she's eating. Is there a reason why the US is more nuanced in their deficiencies?

[B]

Yeah, the US is pretty similar to other high income countries where the issues are not necessarily as drastic or severe. When we think about the effect on, for example, child growth and development, even for birth outcomes, but they're still present and they have micronutrient deficiencies have a lot of different consequences. So fatigue, energy, your productivity. I think in the US you mentioned this challenge of I'm faced with, should I not eat animal source foods because they're not raised in ethical ways or they have a high environmental impact. A lot of people are giving up certain foods without realizing. Wow. Iron needs, for example, for women are extremely high.

[A]

This is a really incredible conversation with Dr. Thai Beal and it's got me rethinking my micronutrients and hydration. Hydration is really important and we typically recommend half your body weight in ounces, which makes a lot of water to drink. And I frankly struggle with it. So I've been adding element and element is an electrolyte solution, a little pack for a number of reasons. Number one, I don't get enough electrolytes in my food and when I'm drinking water, I just don't seem to recover as well. Element has been great for me and my family. Now it has a thousand thousand milligrams of sodium, 200 milligrams of potassium and 60 milligrams of magnesium. And just like Ty is talking about micronutrients, we do have deficiencies and element covers some of these. You can try element. Go to drinklmnt.com drlion you can also try their amazing sparkling 16 ounce can. I love the cherry lime. You can try this totally risk free. If you don't like the product, they will refund you. And I will say they have a very low return rate. Head over to drinklmnt.com drlion and remember, micronutrients, we are all struggling to get enough of them and that includes magnesium and potassium. This is a great way to get that covered.

[B]

Right. During 15 to 49 years of age, iron requirements are very high. If hard to meet those needs without animal source foods or without proper attention to what you're eating. Right. If you're not eating animal sourced foods, are you eating a lot of dark leafy greens?

[A]

How much of those are you going to have to eat? I mean, quite frankly.

[B]

Yeah. I mean the bioavailability of those, so how your body can actually absorb those is really low compared to things like beef, you know, animal sourced foods with heme iron. So that's a challenge. And I think one thing that is clear is that one in five women are deficient. Most of them probably don't know that. Right. Nobody wants to be deficient in nutrients. So if you go to the doctor, if you get your iron checked, it might not even be that you have anemia, but the consequences of iron deficiency even before you have anemia are still there. And so I think it's really important for women in particular to check your iron status.

[A]

I think that's great advice. So I don't know if you know this, but I'm still a practicing clinician and we have a full medical practice and we always run an iron panel. Full iron panel. So for us it's iron, it's ferritin, it's the percent saturation, total iron binding capacity. Those things are really important and it does give us a perspective of their nutrient status, both men and women, quite frankly.

[B]

Yeah, that's great. And the other thing is that you don't want to be Taking supplemental iron if you don't need it. Right. It's sort of a last resort. Right. You want to get it through food. If you have challenges, take supplement. But you don't want free iron going around in the body.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So you want to know your stats.

[A]

Do you want to mention that? Because I think that that's really important as to why. Also having a very defined program, you know, that you're actually just not supplementing, but you're filling a need.

[B]

You know, supplements, they're very isolated compounds. Right. We know that food contains thousands of.

[A]

Compounds that we don't even know about.

[B]

We don't even know what they do. A lot of them. Right. And then there's this food matrix, like you said. There's, you know, these, these compounds are synergistic, they're bound together in this matrix. And so the body really processes those different, differently. And you can't, you can't think a handful of nutrients, let's say you take a vitamin pill, it's not going to do the same thing as a food that contains those nutrients because there's a lot of co factors, there's a lot of maybe non essential nutrients or compounds that can have beneficial effects like anthocyanins.

[A]

Or things of that nature.

[B]

Yeah. And even isolated, for example, you know, carotenoids, beta carotene, if you isolate that and you give it as a supplement, it doesn't have the same health effects as the foods that contain those. And I think the reason is probably, you know, it's complicated, but it's probably because there's a bunch of these compounds and they act together in ways we don't fully understand yet.

[A]

Do you think there's a reason why we have micronutrient deficiencies? You'd mentioned access and food variety. On one extreme, are there other reasons why we are seeing an increase in micronutrient deficiencies?

[B]

Yeah, I mean if you think about the food supply, the foods that are available for consumption over thousands of years. First we had the agricultural revolution 10,000 years ago that led to we can be sedentary, we can get a lot of calories, but we started breeding crops to be less nutrient rich. So we on purpose, unintentionally, unintentionally. When we were first breeding crops, we wanted them to be larger, more productive. We wanted more energy out of them. So corn that has larger kernels, that doesn't have all this fibrous husk tubers that are palatable, we bred these things to be sweeter, to have more starch to have more calories, which at the time was helpful in a lot of ways. But now that's sort of continued. We're only now starting to breed crops for nutrient value. So we've taken out a lot of the nutrition in foods. If you compare our foods today with wild species, that's why herbs maintain their nutrition. You know, dark leafy greens, they're not that different from their wild ancestors and so they have a lot of those nutrients. So that's one aspect. It's the sort of the foods that we do produce. Then you have this new thing called ultra processed foods. These really extracted ingredients that contain very little of the actual food that they were produced from. These are very refined. They've gone through processes that strip a lot of the nutrient value from them. In our diets Today in the U.S. 60, 70% of our calories come from multiprocessed foods. So right there we may have access to a lot of different foods, but we don't eat the foods that are really nourishing us. Those ultra processed foods often are lacking in a lot of nutrients that we need.

[A]

And that's really unfortunate. Hopefully with voices like yours and some of your colleagues will be able to reinstate whole foods. I get it. You have to cook it. It's a whole thing. It's kind of annoying, but probably in the long run, so much better for an individual. But then it makes me think folate, B12, vitamin D and fortification. Right. Is fortification of these. How do we think about this is not just the US but then this global landscape of food systems. How do we. For example, vitamin A. Vitamin A deficiency is, I think, the number one cause of night blindness. Is that accurate?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

How do we both in the US address a vitamin A deficiency and in other countries? Because how do we. I guess the biggest question I have is how do we piece it together in terms of this inter web? Because it's not just us that have to eat and we consume and we waste a lot and we only. What one third of our land is available for marginal land, is that we can only grow things on a certain percentage of our land, which is so small.

[B]

Yeah, well, I think it's very clear from the evidence the ideal form to get our nutrient needs met is through foods and through minimally processed foods. Now, that doesn't mean fortification can't play a role. I think fortification is there as a safety net. So if you're going to be. If you have a choice between being deficient or eating fortified foods, I think it's Much better to eat fortified foods, to take supplements if you have access to them. But it's a hierarchy of preference for health. Ideally we get access to healthy foods that are nourishing us. We don't need a lot of fortification because we're getting those in the natural foods that we eat. Fortification is especially useful in certain cases where nutrients are hard to obtain from food. One example is iodine. Now, iodine, the content in foods really depends on the soil iodine content. And so in many contexts you may have the same diet that would be fine in another context, but it's actually low in iodine because the soil like a geographic region.

[A]

Geographic region, Montana versus near ashore. You might be getting whatever five times the iodine versus someone in the middle of Montana.

[B]

Exactly, yeah. So I think fortification for iodine is probably going to be here to stay because it's really a, it's, it's a simple way to make sure that everyone is getting access to iodine as opposed to how can you actually know if you're eating foods, where do they come from? Where were they produced? Was it in a region that has sufficient iodine in the soil? So fortification plays a role. Supplementation is there, I think as another safety net for people who can access it. Especially when you know your status. Right.

[A]

This is a really interesting conversation. Ty is really getting at food, food matrix. And one of my all time products actually comes from a food matrix and that is mitopure. And mitopure, which is made by timeline. I want you to think about this. Many individuals do not have the microbiome to get urolithin A. And urolithin A comes from the foods that we eat and it gets interacted with our microbiome and it affects mitophagy. So urolithin A is a postbiotic and it has amazing evidence behind it that supports endurance and strength in randomized control trials in humans. And how it works is by promoting cellular cleanup. And I have to tell you, if I could have made and invented a product, it would have been mitopure. But unfortunately, timeline beat me to it. So urolithin A supplement. It is the only clinically proven urolithin A on the market. And from my perspective, it is the ultimate in muscle and whole body health health. The current human data supports its benefits again in muscle health, strength and endurance. And timeline is offering 10% off your order of Mitopure. Go to timeline.com lion that's timeline.com lion and I am telling you, if muscle health is important to you, Energy, immune function, then this will cover it.

[B]

Am I deficient in iron? Am I deficient in B12? Then you can supplement, especially certain stages of life. So if you're in pregnancy, obviously if you're in lactation, if you're in early childhood and you have high iron requirements, then that can potentially play a role.

[A]

Do you think that people have a natural drive to eat? And again, this is just more of a theoretical question, but do you think that individuals will have a natural drive to eat what is healthy for them? And I say that because I'm actually just thinking of my son and I'm thinking because he's tiny, I also am pretty small. But I always think to myself, you know, is he getting enough iron? And you know, would he have a natural proclivity towards eating those things if they were put in in front of him? Again, I recognize it's not necessarily a scientific question, but just from a somewhat of a global human landscape.

[B]

Yeah, well I think that's an important question. I think we've seen research from Fred Provenza and others where animals can do this. So grazing animals naturally self select foods that provide all of their nutritional requirements. Now the key here is that the environment has to be set up for them to do that. I think what's challenging for us is that our food environment is so warped from what we evolved in that it's very hard for people to naturally self select all the foods. Right. If you put out on the table, Lucky Charms, Fruit Loops, cinnamon rolls, whatever, donuts versus different vegetables, fruits. I don't think humans were not going to naturally just choose all of the healthy foods in that environment. But if you had a food environment that was only available only healthy foods, a diversity of healthy foods, I think we'd do a pretty good job. Natur. We see this with protein needs, where you have a grain that's paired with a legume that really creates a complete protein. Many cultures have done that. We've naturally had that pairing where it provides these complementary nutritional profiles from food. My sense is that it's possible, but our food environment is so warped that we can't do it in this food environment.

[A]

And it's impossible. You and I were chatting before we started recording and frankly, it's impossible to create a optimal food environment. One could do it at home. And then the kids go to school and we pack our daughter salmon and fruits and vegetables and she'll come home. I'll say, hey honey, you know, how was your day? Oh, great. I had pizza for lunch and I open up the box and she hasn't touched anything. And I can't control the environment. I can say, oh well, you know, maybe let's have a great dinner. And it's challenging for parents that want to raise their children to be able to make good choices without imposing any kind of food insecurity, food obsession. It's a real challenge, I think.

[B]

Yeah, it's major. I can relate to that. How do you compete with pizza? Right. How do you compete with sugary cereal?

[A]

Breakfast? I do have a strategy. Are you ready for it?

[B]

I'm ready.

[A]

You guys might think I'm a terrible parent after I say this. So my son Leonidas Michael had just turned four. Just less than a month ago I had them make a gluten free, organic, low sugar cake that looked amazing. It had Batman on it. And do you think the kids finished the cake? No. I mean the cake almost tasted like a mix between cornbread and something else. And now I really was so excited about that because next time my kids go to look for cake, they're going to think twice. They're going to go, you know, I don't know, nobody ate the cake.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean we thought the adults thought it was good.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So that's my strategy. So if you're out there listening and you want to potentially change the dynamic of what your child associates cake with, make it very sweet, all natural, gluten free, intermixed with cardboard, esque type essences and they will never go back.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

But for real, when I think about vitamin A deficiency, we don't see a lot of that. Do we in the US see overt vitamin A deficiency?

[B]

No, we don't see a lot of vitamin A deficiency in the U.S. you know, we have Vitamin A thankfully is in a mix of animal source foods and plant source foods. So in the animal source foods, like in dairy, it's in a very bioavailable form, retinol. And then in things like dark leafy greens, orange colored fruits and vegetables.

[A]

I was looking at the dietary guidelines healthy eating index. Have you seen that? And it was basically 95% of us were not eating enough fruits and vegetables and that we were overeating refined grains by again, probably close to 90 some percent.

[B]

Yeah, pretty terrible. Most people don't actually eat close to what the guidelines are. So regardless of what you think of the guidelines. Right. Some room for improvement. People aren't eating what the guidelines suggest.

[A]

That's absolutely right. That's absolutely right. Do you have concerns now? I've heard you say that A plant based diet could be dangerous. Is this. Oh, I suppose I should ask you, what do you mean by that?

[B]

So plant based diet can be very healthy for the right person in the right context. So there is a risk when you start reducing too much how many animal source feeds you have, it gets very hard to meet your nutrient requirements. So there's a few nutrients that stand out. So iron, zinc, vitamin B12 and calcium. So you have to be very intentional. Right. If you completely eliminate animal source foods. One, we know that vitamin B12 is not available in plant source foods. So you need to get that somewhere, whether that's fortified foods, whether that's a supplement. Most people who are doing this, if they're going to be intentionally cutting out animal source foods, you need to be able to check your status, make sure that you're actually getting enough. What people don't realize is that it's not just the quantity, but it's the bioavailability, the form. Right. So you might get a lot of iron and zinc in legumes, but there's phytate which binds to those minerals, it prevents the absorption. And I don't think people realize you can't just eat the same amount of iron and switch from beef to beans and expect to have the same absorbed in your body.

[A]

And I think that the biggest concern is that if an individual then is going through a time where they might be metabolically challenged, which could be pregnancy, and if they are going in with say a Low Iron status, B12 status and they don't shift to those type of more inclusive foods, I mean, like you said before, could it be done if someone is very intentional? Yes, but what about the food matrix? I mean, so we give someone B12, but if it is naturally occurring in animal foods with anserine or creatine or carnitine, you know, I just wonder over the long term if omitting whole foods group, whole food groups is the best idea.

[B]

It's not, it's not the safest idea. And I think you can see even just having a moderate amount of animal source foods can go a long way. Most of the evidence, most people agree with this. Even if you look at vegans, compared to vegetarians, vegetarians tend to have better outcomes, all else being equal, because you're getting, you know, if it's lacto ovo vegetarian, you're getting dairy, you're getting eggs, they have vitamin B12 and some of these other nutrients that you don't have. And the other thing is that having some animal source foods actually Increases the absorption. It really does counter some of the antonutrients. Just having a little bit of meat can go a long way.

[A]

That's fascinating. I was looking at some of the statistics because we hear a lot that Americans are eating too much meat. But compared to globally, do you happen to know those numbers?

[B]

It's quite surprising. This is a very common misconception. Now part of this is because a lot of our food is wasted. If you're looking at data at the food supply, it looks like we eat a crazy amount of food, which we do eat a lot of food, but a lot of that is wasted. When you actually look at the data based on estimates of intake, we don't consume the highest amounts of meat in the US if you think about unprocessed red meat, it's about an ounce and a half a day, which is below the global average.

[A]

The global Average is what, two, two and a half ounces?

[B]

Close to about two ounces, about 51 grams I think. So most people wouldn't really understand that, right? In the US we hear very commonly, oh, we just eat way more meat than everyone else. Now with processed meat, we do consume high amounts of processed meat. So in forms like bacon and lunch meats and those types. So in terms of the world, we actually consume less unprocessed red meat. But when you consider processed meat, we're one of the higher consumers.

[A]

Throughout this podcast with Thai Beal, you will learn that magnesium is one of the most common micronutrient deficiencies. And magnesium has a massive impact on our health. And in fact, 75% of Americans are deficient, which means there's a three out of four chance in. You are listening to this episode, you are too. Magnesium plays a critical role in hundreds of the body's functions from energy production, brain function. Clearly I need it. Stress reduction and sleep. That's why I'm a huge fan of Mellow magnesium. It is a powerful super blend that helps fill these gaps. Mellow combines highly absorbable forms of magnesium with GABA and Al theanine, two amino acids known for their calming stress reducing effects. It also includes 70 trace minerals to support whole body health. If you are looking for something to help meet your magnesium deficiencies without relying on melatonin. Maybe you want something to help you relax. This is it. It can improve sleep, strengthen immunity, boost your mood, and all from one scoop a day. 15 off. You heard that 15 off of Ned products with the code DRLION go to Helloned. H E L L O-N-E-D.com DRLION use the code DRLION at checkout for 15 off. And that's fascinating. Again, this is when social media meets scientists, all things unravel. And that's really the goal of the podcast is how do we get experts like you to help clear up what we think versus what is actually happening? How is the. And I'm not sure if you know this, but there's the who, and it seems as if certain countries have similar food guide recommendations. Do we know how they are defined? So does the WHO have a hand in the dietary guidelines in the U.S. does everybody report to the WHO and say, okay, we know that our RDA for protein or whatever hasn't changed in 50 years. Is there room to move the needle on that? Or do they say, well, no, we can't increase the recommendation for dietary protein because what about the people in sub Saharan Africa?

[B]

Yeah, that's a good question. So for nutrient requirements, those are context specific. Often, sometimes it's by the region. So in the US we have the Institute of Medicine, we have the rda, the ear. In Europe you have efsa. So the European Food Safety Authority, they provide recommended nutrient intake requirements. And then some countries have their own, but a lot of them borrow from others. A lot of them borrow from Europe or borrow from the U.S. now, in terms of dietary guidelines, those are also specific to countries. But the fao, so the Food and Agriculture Organization does help coordinate national food based dietary guidelines. And you can look at those across the world, many countries have them. There are a lot of common themes. It's like certain food groups. Fruits are often in there, vegetables are in there. Usually there's some sort of protein rich food. Maybe it's a legume. A nut seed usually is a category for animal sourced foods and there's usually a category for starchy staple foods.

[A]

What is the relationship between. We seem to import and export a lot of foods. Is there a reason that we're doing that and does that have an impact on the global system? Or maybe you can share a little bit about this concept of a global food system.

[B]

Yeah. So every country produces some of their own food and imports some of their own food and exports food. And it's about economics and trade dynamics and obviously those are changing a lot and they're a bit uncertain right now. But really I think it comes down to price. Where is it cheaper? Is it cheaper to import food? Is it cheaper to produce it yourself? What are the policies in place? So when we think about the US specifically, we produce a huge amount of food we have very efficient production methods.

[A]

So far for what kind of foods?

[B]

Usually starchy staple foods, but also animal sourced foods as well. We are very efficient at producing food. Now there are a lot of environmental challenges with industrial monoculture, so I'm not endorsing that approach. But we do produce a lot. And so that gets shipped around the world. Right. We do produce a lot of food that can be provided to people.

[A]

And that's surprising that the US is doing it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Is there a reason? Because we don't have a ton of land or is most of the land that we have for crops? From what I understand, there's only a certain percentage of the land that is available for crops which is not very large, and then also for grazing animals.

[B]

Yeah. The US actually has some really productive lands in California and the Central Valley. So we have a lot of. We do have a lot of land to produce crops in the US we have very fertile soil and we put tons of fertilizer. We produce very high yields for what we produce and that gives us the ability to ship around the world. Now there's a bunch of environmental issues with that with impacts on biodiversity, with water quality, with all sorts of things. Right.

[A]

As opposed to training up, say a different country like India for efficiency of cattle use. Do you think that there is, if you could fix things, do you have somewhat of a solution of how we could potentially improve food production?

[B]

Yeah, so I think it really depends on the context. The important thing is to not be overly prescriptive to say this needs to happen, this. Right. It's always about working with countries and partners to meet their needs and figure it out together. So there are major issues with inefficiency. So that can be veterinary care, that can be the feed of the animals. There's any number of things that affect that. So I think being more productive is important. But there are many contexts where it's not ideal to be productive. Where extensive, for example, extensive livestock production can actually work for, for the ecosystem. Right. Grazing. I think you mentioned this, but there's a lot of land that is not suitable for crop production.

[A]

Isn't it two thirds? Is it two thirds of the land?

[B]

I think it's probably close to half. I'm not sure on the exact number. Close to half of the land is not suitable for crop production. Maybe two thirds. Yeah, but yeah. So there's all this land that you can't really produce crops on, but you can graze animals. So maybe the soil's not fertile, maybe the, the terrain is too steep. It could Be too rocky for whatever reason, you can't really produce crops, but you can graze animals. And there is a synergistic, there is a synergism to producing livestock in natural grasslands rangelands where you have feedback loops, you have circular agricultural systems where they are fertilizing the land, they're grazed in appropriate ways. Now it's not always easy to do that, but I think that that is another strategy. So trying to encourage the biodiversity on the farm, on the rangelands where the food is produced can be a strategy where you're not just seeking to maximize your efficiency or your productivity.

[A]

That's interesting. So that would be direct to the ranchers is what you're essentially talking about. Not necessarily big industrialized food lots. Is that, am I getting that right?

[B]

Yeah, there's a debate, you know, do we produce food in the most productive, efficient way? Just industrial monocultures, very high yields, but the land is that it is produced on is sort of lacks biodiversity, is destroyed, it's not necessarily sustainable. Or you know, on the other end, do we try to make all of the land that we produce food on rich in biodiversity? Do we have lots of different crops and livestock integrated together in this agroecology approach?

[A]

That would probably be amazing. Super expensive and not able to feed an entire nation.

[B]

Yeah, I think there's somewhere in the middle. Right. And it depends on the context. Sometimes maybe that sparing as much land as you can and being efficient, maybe that makes sense in some contexts and in other contexts you have a lot of land. You know, I think of New Zealand and Australia, you have a lot of land that can be grazed in pretty sustainable ways. Now in New Zealand they don't have the same level of productivity. In the US it's still pretty efficient, but they have much better practices.

[A]

You mean?

[B]

Yeah, they have a lot better animal welfare, they have more nutritious products. The land is actually maintained in a much healthier way that's more sustainable. So I think there's these trade offs that are really evident. You have productivity, you have, you know, biodiversity and this sort of ecosystem functioning. And that depends on where you are, which approach might be more suitable.

[A]

Are there certain countries that produce more, say for example red meat or cattle versus others? How are we interplaying all of this?

[B]

Yeah, so where the, if we think about red meat in particular or beef, where is that most sustainably produced? Now in Brazil. Oftentimes what's done is that forests are cleared for soybean production, which is then fed to cattle. That's Not a sustainable method. Right.

[A]

Is that happening now still?

[B]

It still happens now. Yeah, it's still an issue. And so there's a very unsustainable way to produce beef. Right. And then there's these approaches, I think of New Zealand again, but there's lots of places in Europe that also do this where you are producing ruminants in a way that is sustaining the natural ecosystem. And so you're not going to be clearing the forest because maybe it's already actually a natural rangeland. Right. So if it's a grassland already, you're not needing to make major changes to the land. You can sort of use livestock to sort of emulate wild ruminants and you can manage them in a way that's sustainable.

[A]

So what I'm hearing you say is take the natural land that exists and how do we amplify that in various countries to produce what we need?

[B]

Yeah. And each ecosystem is tailored to a different type of food production. So in a grassland it's going to be more suitable to ruminant production. Right. But you don't necessarily produce ruminants in a rainforest. Right.

[A]

Not very sustainable as Ty is talking about. Healthy food is critical, but also often overlooked are healthy means of the actual cooking process. Many of us still use nonstick cookware because let's face it, it's convenient. But this comes at a cost. Nonstick contains harmful chemicals like Teflon and Pfas with which can leach into food. If I could go back in time and change out my cookware decades ago I would have. But that being said, it's never too late to make a better choice going forward. And that's why we use Our Place, which is toxin free, high performance cookware and appliances designed for safe, simpler use. You do not have to worry about the hidden dangers of non stick cookware which is loaded with forever chemicals. If it's one thing that I hope that you change, it's switching your cookware. You can start with an Our Place 4 set. This is a great way to overhaul your kitchen and it saves space. You can get pots and pans and the cost saving value of buying a full set versus these individual pieces. You'll save, I don't know, a buck 50, $150. Stop cooking with toxic stuff and upgrade to Our place. Visit from our place.com/drlion and use the code DrLion for 10% off site wide. You'll also get a hundred day risk free trial. I think I kind of saw that in what was that movie Avatar. That could probably do it. What about other animals and plants? So when I say other animals, we talked about cattle, which the ruminant or just the ruminants in general? Do you have a thought on chickens eggs? Because you'd mentioned choline and choline is a micronutrient that's critical for brain development and choline is really high in eggs. Depending on who you ask, eggs are healthy or unhealthy, who knows? But do they play a part or is it just kind of the big ruminant animals?

[B]

Yeah. So I think in general we need to diversify our foods. So we already have a big challenge in that we have taken a big diversity of foods available, different species, and we've reduced them to just a few, just a handful. Most of our calories come from three staples. We have rice, corn and wheat.

[A]

Across the world.

[B]

Across the world, yeah. We need to diversify. There's a lot of reasons for that. There's health reasons, but there's also ecosystem reasons and maintaining species diversity with other animal source foods. Yes. Eggs play a huge role. They're different. Right. They're produced in different ways. They don't take up as much land, you don't have as much emissions, so you're not having as much effect on the climate. But you have the trade off that they require a lot of feed because they can't be necessarily produced on land. Naturally you have to provide feed for poultry.

[A]

How come they just run away?

[B]

Yeah, it's not very productive. Of course, chickens naturally would eat grubs and insects and whatnot. I think that's healthy for part of their diet. But trying to have production that is going to meet the demand, it's going to be hard to do that on all.

[A]

Just small scale, meaning individual. Are they called chicken farmers? Individual poultry farms? Yeah, poultry farms. The quality of the food does. The quality of the food. Just as you were talking about humans and humans eating biodiversity and that their food in micronutrient robustness varies depending on location. If you increase or change the quality of the food, say of a chicken, will a chicken's egg, if you buy it from, I don't know, whole foods, pasture raised, have more choline versus an egg that you buy for dipping Easter eggs that's white, that comes from the egg farm.

[B]

Yeah. Of course, if you think about humans, right. If we have micronutrient deficiencies, if we don't eat a nutrient dense diet, that deficiency means that we're lacking that nutrient in our body. It's the same thing with animal source foods. Eggs, they are impacted. Now, it might not be as much as some people like to say that it is, but it does have an effect probably for choline, but I think in particular omega 3 fats that can make a difference. The vitamin A content. You can actually see yellow yolk, a very pale yellow yolk, which is sort of the common in your sort of lowest level egg in the US versus a pasture raised egg from vital farms. It's a deep, rich orange yolk. I don't know if you've noticed, but in many other countries in Europe, the natural yolk is dark orange. There is something to do with the breed of the animal and the diet of the animal that really do affect the, the nutrients that are in those products.

[A]

Because if humans are not eating a ton of biodiversity, it seems as if we could, if we could fortify the food and improve the quality of the food across the board for the animals that we're consuming, it would hopefully make up for, depending on the micronutrient deficiency. It would be an indirect way where we're not counting on people to eat well. I mean we want to, but at least that seems as if that potentially could move the needle for people.

[B]

Yeah, I think that plays a role. So the diet of the animal, the breeding of the animal, how they're raised, and it's the same thing for crops. So crops can also be what's called biofortified. So that's where you breed a crop to be higher in certain nutrients. You can make high iron and zinc. Beans, for example, you can make.

[A]

I did not know that.

[B]

Yeah, you can do natural processes for this, you can do genetic processes for this.

[A]

But how do they do that? How does that even work?

[B]

Well, you can naturally select for varieties that have more, higher nutrient content, lower phytate content. But you can also, for example, take a common one is orange flesh sweet potato. The sweet potato, where it's rich orange, deep orange inside. Now, many sweet potatoes around the world in Africa are actually white or pale yellow fleshed. One of the strategies has been to develop varieties that actually can be produced in, in those contexts that are orange. So that process, you can change the nutrient content, you can change the anti nutrient content like the phytate content, you can make crops more resilient. And now we're starting to do this. And I mentioned before 10,000 years ago, when we started producing food and crops, we didn't think about the nutrient content. We were just trying to produce higher yield, sweeter, better tasting. And now we're starting to breed for these qualities of Nutritional value, which I think like you said, it's not going to depend on somebody's choice of making sure they eat the right food, but the foods that they do consume are going to be higher in nutrients in general. So I think that's another strategy that helps increase the overall nutrient density of the diet.

[A]

What about the balance of how much plants, I don't want to say versus if we look at our plate or we look at our diet to overcome some of these deficiencies because both forms of food or plant and animal have various unique properties. Do you think that there's a certain percentage that we should be eating? Is it 40% plants, 60% animals, 60% plants, 40% animals to really cover this micronutrient deficiency? And does that depend on age?

[B]

So that's a great question. It really depends on the individual. So one thing that I have learned over time is that what works for me doesn't necessarily work for you. It doesn't work for somebody else. Right. And so I think that we have to recognize that some people thrive on a vegan diet, some people apparently thrive on a carnivore diet, and a lot of people usually thrive somewhere in the middle. Right. So what is that middle? When we look at the evidence about nutrient adequacy, so sort of modeling how many nutrients are you consuming in a particular type of diet with a certain amount of animal source foods versus plant source foods. When you look at ancestral diets, what is the proportion you look at all of these things, we usually see that you need close to about 25 to 30% animal source foods on average to make sure you can get your nutrient needs met. So I think aiming for that, aiming for about a third of calories from animal source foods is a good target to make sure you have your nutrient needs met. Now of course you can go lower, many people do, but you just start need to paying attention to.

[A]

But if you go lower and you're a 50 year old woman or 60 year old woman and you're eating 1200 calories, how would one make up for that micronutrient deficiency?

[B]

Yeah, you need to go, you need to have a much more nutrient dense diet. So when we look across the life course, older adults, like you're saying lower calorie requirements, but higher nutrient needs per calorie. So. So animal source foods are particularly important and we see a lot of evidence suggesting lean red meat, for example, can really help protect against sarcopenia, can help provide nutrients that are lacking in that age group, young children, adolescents, so it does Depend on your life stage, of course. And I think that's another important consideration when we're talking about what's a healthy diet, what's a sustainable diet, how do we really produce food in a healthy and sustainable way? We don't want to neglect populations that have different requirements and higher needs at different stages.

[A]

How do you think about the direction of where we're going, where we're at right now? I don't know what your perspective is in terms of the system in and of itself. Do you think that the global food system is doing an adequate job, again, maybe framing that up for us and where we're going?

[B]

Well, we're not doing a great job and we're not heading in a great direction. So one thing is clear. We see patterns that in high income countries, when you have enough money for your basic needs and more, we start to eat less healthy foods. So we have this trade off. We do consume a more diverse food, so we have access to a range of foods that we wouldn't otherwise have, but we start making choices and eating foods that are unhealthy. Ultra processed foods go up. For example.

[A]

Do other countries have access to that? Like in. I don't know, you choose it?

[B]

Yeah. In lower income contexts, what we see is that ultra processed food consumption is much lower, but the rate of increase is very high. So it's basically countries are headed in the same direction as the U.S. right? As they develop, as they gain more, more wealth, their diet starts shifting, they start consuming more unhealthy foods, ultra processed foods, more highly refined foods, packaged foods. So it depends on where you are, what stage in the process. But there's this term nutrition transition which really does apply to most contexts around the world. It's this just almost a very universal theme that we see, unfortunately.

[A]

Who do you think is responsible for this? Is it a supply and demand?

[B]

There are so many contributing factors that it's, this is why it's such a challenge. The food industry plays a big role, consumers play a big role. You know, when we think about the products that are out there, there's a reason that people buy ultra processed foods. They're, they're cheap, they're convenient.

[A]

Is it really that way or is it because they taste better?

[B]

They taste much better.

[A]

I'm asking for a friend because I don't think the croissants at this local bakery taste good at all. Especially not their almond organic croissants. Terrible. Yeah, I have one upstairs, but yeah, who is to, you know, who is to blame? So we have this knowledge that ultra processed foods. And again, is it an ultra processed food problem or is it a poor diet quality problem that is really undermining our health? And it just seems, no pun intended, unsavory. Are we really going to industrialize these individuals that maybe are at risk because they have less access to food? Let's say my husband was deployed in Africa and there's a little village in Africa where they are farming and growing their food. But then we decide that processed food is going to be more, I don't know, efficient for them. Yeah. Who is, who is responsible for what's happening? Because if we're not trending in the right direction, somebody has to put a stop to it. Just like you said, if you have lucky charms and you have, what did you say? Fruit Loops. And what else was the other one?

[B]

Cinnamon rolls, donuts.

[A]

Not that you eat those or even look at them. If you introduce that to individuals, I mean, think about our kids when they're young. I'm talking about really little. You're giving them liver, you're giving them all of these things. And then the first time they have a cinnamon roll, it's over. It is game over.

[B]

Yeah. They don't know what they're missing until they try it.

[A]

Until they know what they're missing, it's.

[B]

Very hard to battle. You're right. And I think, you know, there are a lot of different ways to make changes, but it's difficult. But I think if there was one way, I think changing the procurement, so the public procurement of how we. How the government spends money on meals provided to people. So if we think about school meals, meals in hospitals, prisons, et cetera, that's such a lever that if we put restrictions on the foods that are provided, that can have a big impact. Because a lot of these things are about the demand. Right. So individuals have their own demand because we have free choice about what we buy. But in a lot of these contexts, there's a huge budget that can go towards healthier foods if the government makes restrictions. And I think that that's one key lever that we need to use. We need to make it so that the foods that we're paying for with our tax dollars are helping to provide health and nourishment to people. So that's one aspect of it. Then there's a whole aspect of nutrition education, understanding there's generating interest or demand for healthier foods, there's making healthier foods more convenient. So there are ways to produce processed foods that are not as destructive as ultra Processed foods. So I think we need to do everything we can. It's not simple. And the reason I say it's headed in the wrong direction is because of the data. The trends are showing us that ultra processed food, junk food consumption is increasing. It's correlated with money. The more money you have, the more unhealthy foods you choose to consume. So we have to break that pattern. And doing that is difficult. These foods are produced, understandably. The food industry wants people to come back and buy their products. They have food chemists that design these foods to be addicting, that design these foods to taste good, which is nothing wrong with food tasting good. But when it sort of undermines your body's natural circus for satiety, how are we supposed to resist if all the foods around us. It's like if you fill your house with unhealthy foods, you're going to eat unhealthy foods. Right. And so I think there's just a lot of different levels. There's a government level, there's an individual level, and then there's all sorts of, I think, factors that we have to think about in the complex politics that go on.

[A]

Yeah, a lot of lobbying.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That'S a whole different topic. But it is an important one. There's the commodities and then there are the processed foods. And both have varying restrictions on what they can and cannot say. For example, a commodity food, which would be a beef or a milk or any kind of whole food, cannot say, well, beef is a better source of protein than say, the impossible burger. It seems that a processed food can make different claims than a whole food can make, which makes education, frankly, much more challenging.

[B]

Yeah, you're right. Like the packaging can make such a big difference. The marketing we think about in the US There are not limitations on marketing to children. But that's a huge problem. Right. And many countries, we don't let industry provide these same level of advertisements to children or during times when children will see them. Right.

[A]

Is that true in other countries? Tell me more about that.

[B]

So a lot of restrictions are placed on advertising. So what time periods can you put advertisements on for tv? For example, in countries in South America, many countries actually limit the advertising on the product. So if you think about a cereal box where it has this character that's, you know, super appealing, bright colors, it's gonna draw the kids to that box. Right. So if you have, if you restrict what is on the box, it actually does make a difference. I was Talking to my 7 year old, I was telling her about this I was like, you know, the marketing is really like, it's really bad. She said, no, actually she said, dad, the marketing is really good. It works on me. I was like, yes, of course.

[A]

That's so funny.

[B]

She was very self aware.

[A]

Oh my gosh. What are the restrictions in other countries? Do you think that we'll ever be able to move that over here and maybe with the new administration?

[B]

Yeah, I hope so. I think that's urgently needed to protect our children. We do need to have restrictions on advertisements. So wherever children will see advertisements, we need restrictions on the foods available for school meals. And I think that's starting to happen now. At the same time, we need support. You can't transition a school, especially a school in a low income setting and say tomorrow all of your foods need to be prepared by a chef. Minimally processed, no ultra processed foods. How are they going to do that? So I think we need to have this really supportive environment where we say, look, the end goal is fully prepared, healthy foods that are, you know, give children choice, they taste good. Right. But to get there, we're going to need support. So we need to provide that support along the process of the policy change.

[A]

I think that's a great idea. Meaning maybe do it slow or support them. And again, it's probably new information for a lot of the individuals, whether it's the head of the hospital or the head of the school. You know, we're not just talking about changing food policy, we're really talking about changing minds.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that's challenging. Of showing the importance of perhaps those lucky charms, while they might taste great and be super easy, that it's really not setting our growing adults. You know, we talk about raising children, but truly we're raising adults and what the impact that that's going to have on their life and just overall health and well being. Because if ultra processed foods are erupting at the rate that they are and the majority of our diets are ultra processed foods, while we might not have deficiencies, overt deficiencies in the short term, over the long term, I just think about the productivity, the cognition, the overall health outcomes. I think it's gonna be, it's gonna be a problem. Are you hopeful that it can change?

[B]

Honestly, I've been very skeptical, to be honest. It's a system. There's a lot of momentum, there's a lot of power, there's a lot of lobbying. I am, I do have some hope with the, with RFK Jr. Being in place. And I think, I think there is an opportunity to make changes that weren't there before. You actually see for the first time you see Democrats and Republicans talking about ultra processed foods. We haven't ever seen that. We haven't had this. I think this bipartisan attention to what people are agreeing with is that we need to change the foods that we're eating. We need to change the foods that are going to our children. And so I am hopeful now more than I have been.

[A]

Don says the same thing. Don Layman says the same thing.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, I think it's, it's very clear. You can't provide lucky charms next to something else and expect a child to not choose the lucky charms. You need to change the environment.

[A]

If you were to offer action steps for the listener or the viewer, do you have a series of recommendations that they can do within their own life to be able to, to the best of their ability, avoid micronutrient deficiencies, overall good nutrition? What does that look like from your perspective?

[B]

Yeah, if I was to keep it really simple, the first thing would be to restrict ultra processed foods. I don't think they should be excluded. Nobody wants to. Few people would want to live in a world where you can't have treats. Maybe less than 10% of calories. That's number one, the recommendation. Number two, we really do have to restrict refined starches, refined sugars, refined fats.

[A]

What would be examples of those?

[B]

So if you think about many foods that may not be ultra processed but have refined flour, for example, white bread, croissants. Croissants, Right. So any of these really refined carbs. So refined starches, sugars and fats, if you restrict those as well, those can wreak havoc. So you might be able to limit your ultra processed foods, but you could still fall back on a bunch of refined foods. So limit those as well. And in general, for the most people, it's just eating a diversity of minimally processed whole foods. It could be that simple. Now for some people, they thrive on lower animal source foods. Right. Mostly plants. They can have large amounts of beans and lentils and feel great. I'm not one of those people. A lot of people can. Right. So for those folks, eat a lot of plant rich foods. Some people do better on a ketogenic diet. On an animal based diet, that's okay. Like if that's what your body needs, as long as they're minimally processed and you're keeping track of your biomarkers and making sure you're healthy, I think that can be okay. So, so there's a Lot of flexibility within that. But those sort of three principles of restrict ultra processed foods, limit refined carbs and fats, and eat a variety of minimally processed whole foods, I think that would go a long way.

[A]

I think those are three great recommendations. What about eating locally? Do you think that that plays a role or not as big of a role as maybe we once thought.

[B]

I'm all for eating locally. There's a lot of reasons for that. It's not necessarily for nutrition, although sometimes foods definitely can lose nutritional value over time. When they're crops that are picked unripe, there are some nutrient losses there, but more for a societal perspective of are we supporting the community around us? Are we connecting with the. Maybe where our food is produced? Are we connecting with the people that produced our food? I think there's a lot of evidence to show that, you know, when kids produce food, you know, at my daughter's school, they have a garden so they'll come home with kale and lettuce. And it's different to eat that from something that you helped grow. So I think that that can be play an important role. But you know, I'm of the opinion that it's okay to have food that's transported if it's in sustainable ways. A lot of times actually transportation is one of the smallest or the lowest environmental impact categories, which is surprising.

[A]

That is surprising. I thought it was industry like industry, electricity, transportation.

[B]

Primary production is often largest. The waste is often largest.

[A]

That's right. Food waste.

[B]

Food waste is huge. And when it's not used to be composted, you actually have methane production from the decomposition.

[A]

And how much food do we waste? Don't we waste at least.

[B]

We waste at least a third.

[A]

Yeah, I was going to say we.

[B]

I think it's probably in the US it's closed to half of our food.

[A]

And the foods that go to waste are typically fruits and vegetables, meats, anything perishable.

[B]

Yeah, especially those vegetables that people buy and they want to eat these.

[A]

This broccoli is definitely going to get eaten.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Thank you so much. Thai Beel. Dr. Thai Beel. It is really a privilege to be able to sit down and talk to you and I know that, that the listener and the viewer will absolutely feel the same way. You bring an extraordinary voice to the landscape. So thank you so much for your time.

[B]

Thanks for having me.

[A]

I hope you're walking away from this episode with a deeper understanding of how ultra processed foods are shaping not just your plate, but your long term health. A huge thank you to Dr. Thai Beal for breaking down the science in a way that's clear, honest, and deeply important for where we are today as a country and a global community. If this conversation resonated with you, please share it with someone who needs to hear it. And as always, subscribe, leave a review and keep showing up for your health. Because the path to longevity, energy and resilience isn't just about living longer. It's about living stronger, living better.