← The Dr. Gabrielle Lyon Show
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- [00:00]
A
People have asked me before, were you ever in a situation where you were really afraid, like a combat or something? And I answer them quite honestly, no.
- [00:08]
B
What makes a Navy SEAL not normal?
- [00:11]
A
One of the biggest reasons why guys like us don't suffer from anxiety is.
- [00:16]
B
Because what is paramilitary?
- [00:19]
A
You're talking about operations that are, that are less overt, usually done secretly in areas that perhaps the public isn't as much aware of. That would be the vanilla definition of that. To go any more precise, I'd be concerned about saying too much. The sacrifice that our military families make is as big than the actual member because they're the ones who have to sit home and hold the bag. Courage is impossible in the absence of fear. You can have a group of Navy SEALs in a gunfight with Al Qaeda in Afghanistan who are in that moment feeling less fearful. Then the eight year old just has to step in front of the class and introduce himself. Fear is entirely subjective to the human being.
- [00:57]
B
If you gave people one piece of advice, they want to become tougher, what would that piece of advice be?
- [01:04]
A
That's a great question. And I would say, I would say.
- [01:13]
B
Rich Devini, welcome to the show.
- [01:15]
A
Thank you. Thank you for having me.
- [01:16]
B
I'm really excited. You and I are friends. You came, you spoke at our event and you floored everyone. As a former commander, Navy seal.
- [01:24]
A
Yeah. Thank you. It was a great event, great people.
- [01:27]
B
So what makes a Navy SEAL not normal?
- [01:31]
A
That's a great question. And I would say, I would say probably only a couple things because we are, after all, human beings. And I always try, I always endeavor, my whole endeavor is to take the seals off the pedestal so I can translate what we actually do. But I think what makes us not normal, that is, allows us to get through the selection course is our ability to manage our, our autonomic arousal, our state, and the ability to compartmentalize in a way that allows for performance under just extreme chaos and duress. In those moments of extreme chaos and duress, we don't get more excited, we actually get calmer. And I think that's, that's one of the elements that allows someone to even make it through training. And that just translates. And the profession itself, hyper develops that ability. So I think there's one key thing, I think that's what makes seals not normal.
- [02:19]
B
I live with one, so I would.
- [02:21]
A
And he's not normal, just like all of us.
- [02:23]
B
No, it's quite frankly pretty annoying. I think to myself, could you please get stressed out about this? Who's the best?
- [02:31]
A
Yeah. And it's funny because in the prep for this, I watched a couple of the clips you sent and I saw that one guy talking about the difference between SEALs and Delta and CIA paramilitary. And he wasn't, you know, he certainly had some nuances. He was, he wasn't wrong about things, but I think he was not specific enough because comparing them is like comparing apples and oranges and bananas. They all, all the elements have different specialties. And, and really you can't even compare seals holistically to Delta because not all seals, if you're going to compare Delta to anybody, compared to seal Team 6, which is a specific command, that, that's at Delta's level. So with a specific mission. So but all this to say I think seals are their, their metals, their mission essential tasks are such that it's direct action, it's waterborne operations that that comes with it. A very unique skill set and attribute set to be able to deal and live in and out of the water. I think the army guys, you know, we could talk about Delta. Those guys are.
- [03:35]
B
Delta is a. And the question is, who is the best CIA, Delta, Delta or seals?
- [03:41]
A
I'm the best at what? That's the thing. If you say best at waterborne operations, it's seals hands down. If it's best at airline aircraft takedown and hostage rescue style stuff with airlines, it's Delta. If it's the best at paramilitary operations, it's CIA. I think the mistake people make when they think special operations is that everybody's kind of all the same, but just different military services. But the unique and the most special thing about the special operations is that every unit comes with it a specialty. Green Berets are awesome at. Their primary duty is fit. Foreign internal defense. No one does it better.
- [04:18]
B
What is their primary duty?
- [04:19]
A
Foreign internal defense. Basically going in and training other units or insurgents to carry out missions. So they do it better than anybody else. The Rangers, their primary mission is airfield takedowns, mass level style takedowns. No one does it better than them. So the seals is all waterborne. No one takes down ships the same way SEALs do.
- [04:39]
B
Or it gets girls or gets girls.
- [04:41]
A
Well, I will concede that in recent years seals have won the popularity contest. Now that's not. I mean, it certainly has to do with the missions that were very public, but also the fact that yes, many of us do write books. And although my books aren't SEAL books, there are many SEAL books out there. And so yeah, I will concede that when it comes to the Hollywood stuff, we are well deserving of all the shit we get from the other units.
- [05:07]
B
So that's really funny. You make a really good point at the best. At what? And again, the joke is. And of course, I'm married to a seal, so I can make these jokes. The guys are knuckle draggers, meaning not highly intelligent, but really the muscle. The reality is these are highly intelligent guys.
- [05:31]
A
When I went through SEAL training, and anybody. The audience probably knows enough about it, but Navy SEALs, holistically, as a force, only a small percentage are officers. And that, you know, so I was an officer. That's a very small percentage. So out of the entire force, maybe only 10% are officers. The rest, most Navy SEALs are enlisted guys. When I went through BUDS, almost half of the enlisted guys in my BUDS class had college degrees. So we're not. So I don't like the misnomer. Certainly we have knuckle draggers in the community, but there was a rocket scientist. There was an enlisted guy who had studied rocket science. Again, how do you measure intelligence? What does intelligence look like? In the CIA paramilitary vein, intelligence looks like one thing. You put a guy underwater, having to navigate to a target and do stuff, that's a whole other level of intelligence. I think the nuances are funny, of course, and we could say the same thing about Marines or the Army. There's certainly a nice amount of material inside of which we can all tease each other. But the generalizations I don't agree with at all.
- [06:33]
B
What is paramilitary?
- [06:35]
A
Well, paramilitary is really those operations that are conducted outside of your regular US Military. I won't say purview, but certainly overtness. You're talking about operations that are less overt, usually done secretly, and usually done in areas that perhaps the public isn't as much aware of. That would be the vanilla definition of that. To go any more precise, I'd be concerned about saying too much. But it's just those things we don't talk about as much. And it's usually in the shadows, I guess. Yeah.
- [07:10]
B
Which. Those kind of operations seem to be necessary.
- [07:14]
A
They are necessary. And by the way, a lot of the spec ops units do at least some version of that to some degree. Certainly as you go up the chain, CIA probably is the premier. But spec ops is about at least an element of that. What paramilitary is not is what we were doing in Iraq and Afghanistan. Those were overt special operations missions that were completely kind of the expectation of what guys like us needed to do.
- [07:44]
B
So guys like us. There is a reality of deployment, and there is the amazing Hollywood Story of what the SEALs do, what the CIA does, what the Deltas do. But there is a dark side, and I'd love to know how that affects you psychologically.
- [08:10]
A
There's many ways it affects us, and I think there's also a difference there. You came into the community at a time, as I lived, the community where deployments were very kinetic. And so to deploy meant you were going overseas and you were going to be conducting combat operations, period, end of story. I joined the teams in 1996, the first five years of my career. Did a couple deployments. We did nothing. We just deployed. Basically deploy for presence. It's called deploying for presence, where you're just sitting somewhere waiting to have something happen. Most deployments outside of our combat time, outside of the war are like that. That still comes with it, an element of uniqueness and stress because you have to leave your family and you don't know what's going on. And you have to get used to this idea that you're going to be gone for this long, and your family has to get used to that idea that you're going to be gone for that long. So that in of itself carries a level of stress and hardship that I think when we thank our service members for their service, whether they're a Navy SEAL or whether they're an admin person, I think part of the joint combined sacrifice is the fact that we're asking folks to leave their families for long periods of time so that they can go do things in places, whether they're actually conducting combat operations or supporting them. But being away from their family, that's part of the, that's one of the biggest sacrifices the combat deployments add. Add onto that this concern and worry that man, you know, my, my family member is, is going out and they are going to be in the thick of it, actually. And so again, I think that carries, and you can probably attest to this, that carries more stress and anxiety for the home front than it does the actual operator. Because of the way just we. For us, it's work and we don't worry about, we don't worry ourselves over that stuff. But the family, they suffer quite a bit.
- [10:02]
B
I wanted to take a moment to let you know about something new we've created. It's called Forever Strong Insider, and it's the premium subscription to the Dr. Gabrielle Lyon Show. As a Forever Strong Insider, every week you'll get ad free episodes written summaries with key, key takeaways to help you retain the most important insights from the show. A community Q and A segment where you can submit your own questions for upcoming guests. We're going to call this the Strong Seat and behind the scenes content. A closer look at how I prepare, train, travel and navigate daily life. Go to foreverstrong supercast.com. let's keep getting stronger together. I married Shane. He was still so my husband. For those of you who are new to listening or watching on YouTube, he served 10 years as a SEAL. He went in after 9, 11. He was very inspired and felt like he needed to do something. When we got married, he was stateside. He was actually teaching at the schoolhouse. I want to be careful about what I say and how I say it, but he was teaching trauma for special operations Trauma medicine, working extremely long hours, was doing night school before going to medical school. I was alone and pregnant in New York City. I did the majority of the pregnancy alone in. Living in a small studio apartment, traveling on the subway was an interesting experience. And as I was going through my first pregnancy, I'm thinking, you know, thank God he's not deployed. But it's. It is not easy. There was no one to rub my feet.
- [11:40]
A
Well, I tell you to get me food, and you bring up a great point because my wife talks about it too. It's like there's. There's sometimes, especially with the seals gaining popularity, there's a. There's a romanticization that comes a lot with maybe a lot of women who's like, ooh, Navy seal. And you, as my wife will say, no, no, it's no picnic. And the reason is because even when we're at home, we're working nonstop, we're going away for training. We're not as present as you can be. And so I think that also comes with it, this idea that, you know, there's nothing wrong. It's a tough job, it's a tough business. It's a complete commitment. And so when you're at home, you're training, and that training often keeps you, you know, you can't. It's hard to train for night operations during the day. So guess what that means. That means you're doing a lot of training after dark, which means you're getting home late. And in Shane's case, that type of trauma training, I mean that, you know, he was doing things in the city there that had to. It required him to be out at night because that's where a lot of the stuff goes down. And so. And so the sacrifice that our military families make is as big, if not more so than the actual Member because they're the ones who have to sit home and hold the bag and wonder and keep their mouth shut and be okay with not talking every day. And by the way, that's one of the secrets when you're on deployment. My wife and I figured out real fast, even though we had the luxury of being able to talk on the phone, calling every day was a mistake because a. It set up an expectation. And by the way, if something happens or if you're delayed or something. Something random and you don't make that call, guess what's happening at home, there's wonder, there's. There's doubt, there's. There's worry. Plus it actually extends the deployment because you're just. You're just. Your horizons. We'll talk about moving horizons, but your horizons are just going day to day versus, versus anything else. So. So our secret was, you know, don't talk every day. Maybe talk once a week and email once in a while. And make it somewhat random.
- [13:42]
B
Make the relationship and the connection somewhat random. Is what I heard you say totally the opposite of what we would think of maintaining a healthy marriage.
- [13:50]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [13:53]
B
How does one in your position, someone who trains up mentally. Right. If we were to frame this up for the listener and also the women listening and the guys. Because guys want to be tough.
- [14:06]
A
Yes.
- [14:06]
B
You know, we open this with what makes a Navy SEAL not normal. And the reality is you guys aren't normal. And I don't want to bunch you in with, quote, the guys. But the reality is there are certain attributes, and you talk about this in your first book that allow someone to be successful. And one of those attributes from being with, you know, Shane for the last seven or so years, is the things that make a close, connected marriage don't necessarily exist with a, quote, team guy.
- [14:38]
A
Right, right. Empathy. Being one of those.
- [14:40]
B
Empathy. Empathy. But being able to emotionally engage. And what do I mean by emotionally engaged? From my experience, and I really want to hear your perspective on this. A healthy marriage requires a close connection and an ability to breach the emotional perimeter.
- [15:01]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [15:02]
B
But by nature. And while Shane is extremely loving and caring, there would be definitely a lack of. If I'm stressed or having anxiety about this or how this business is going. What about that? It doesn't even register.
- [15:19]
A
Right. Yeah. The shared. The shared empathy. So. So part of. Okay, so part of what? Kristen and I, and we've been married 24 years. So she. We got married in 2001. So I was only a SEAL for five years. So we lived the war together raised two boys. And so part of what we have explored as we went through it and then, since then, is that first thing is we have to really learn and understand this idea of appreciation for each other. That appreciation can be garnered in many different ways, but one of those ways is in the absence. And so we began to frame the absence in a different way instead of. And she was very good at this. And if she were here, she'd tell you. She. She had to really tell herself, like, explicitly. Instead of being pissed off at him for not being here, why don't I reframe it and say, hey, he's away. I get to do all this. But also, I appreciate the absence. We really hammered home this absence makes the heart grow fonder type thing. Because honestly, we would, towards the end of deployment, get to this position where coming home was like. I mean, I remember having the excitement of a kid on Christmas morning. The only way I could replicate my. Replicate my feeling as a kid on Christmas Eve was coming home from deployment. Because that absence piece, in terms of the way we relate as partners when we're together, I think that's a willingness for each person to understand and see each other for who they are and for each partner to grow and move a little bit, move the line a little bit. Shane has had to become at least a little bit more empathetic, and I'm sure he has. You've had to come off of that. You've had to be okay with a lack of that to a certain degree, as have Kristen and I. And so I think we have to recognize that marriage, whether it's seal marriage or any marriage, you know, if you want to go the long haul, you have to recognize that and understand and appreciate the fact that we are going to change as human beings. One of the things that always gets me when I hear about couples getting divorced is when they say something like, well, he's not the same person I married 10 years ago, or she's not the same person. I was like, no shit. You know, I mean, Kristen, I was 28 and she was 29 or something. I am absolutely not the same person. And for good. That's a good thing. But we have evolved together. Her attributes, her personality, everything about her has helped me move the line and become better. I've become more empathetic as I've. As I've grown older, as I've. How? Well, I mean, first of all, kids helps, you know, really?
- [17:53]
B
I think kids helps out. That's hilarious.
- [17:55]
A
I mean, the opposite. Kristen and I, we. When we first got married, we went to see Finding Nemo, and. And I remember us watching the movie. It's a great movie. I mean, Pixar does a great job. And I remember her just sobbing at the end. She was just crying at the end. I was like, wow, that's. That's a. That's an interesting reaction. I was, of course, moved. I thought it was a cool movie, but I wasn't emotionally moved. And then I had kids and I watched it again, and suddenly now I'm. I'm older, and I joke with some of my older, even team guy friends, like, I'll sometimes watch commercials. And, you know, now part of that is my empathy has moved. Part of that, I think, is. Is when you go through such a. Such a. And I say traumatic, but such a really visceral experience. When you. When you live a war and you lose friends and you see and there's a lot of things that happen, I think that our natural tendency to compartmentalize those feelings, my buddy and I call it, we get these bursts, these empathy bursts, where you're sitting there, you're watching a commercial, and suddenly you're emotionally moved. You're like, where the hell did that come from? Well, I think part of it is, yes, your empathy has changed, but also part of it is you're releasing things that might be pent up a little bit. So all this to say, I know I've drifted a little bit, but I think a real understanding of each other and a true love of each other's soul allows for that evolution to take place. And, yeah, it's frustrating. I mean, still frustrating to you and Shane get frustrated. Kristen and I get frustrated. It's going to happen.
- [19:22]
B
No, I never get frustrated with him.
- [19:25]
A
Liar.
- [19:27]
B
But there's challenges. Challenges with deployment, challenges with training, and you're on a very noble mission, in my opinion, which is why I'm so grateful to have you sitting here talking. And what I believe your mission is, is to really make the world better and understand. You're very cerebral to understand how we can live in a very uncertain world with more steadiness.
- [19:53]
A
Yeah, that is, absolutely. And one of the things I recognized just in the profession was that we as SEALs had the ability to do this. We had the ability to move through uncertainty, challenge and stress fairly deftly. And I began to wonder how and why. And as I began to think about it and research it and learn more about it, both the practical tools and the neuroscience, I recognized that this was not limited to Navy seals. This is actually human stuff. And that's what drives me. Once you start putting science behind stuff, you start realizing, oh, this is not Navy seal, this is human. And then once it's human, you can teach people, you can show people, you can remind people. Ultimately, I think the. One of my main drive, two main drivers for this content, that is one, help people deal with uncertainty, challenge, and stress. When it hits you without warning, that's always going to happen. And that's great. If we can march, if we can have some confidence that when something happens, I'll be okay. I think, in fact, that's true confidence, to know, hey, whatever goes on, I'll. I'll handle it, you know? But the more important thing in my mind and the more the thing that drives me more is by understanding these tools and these practices, you can more deliberately step into challenge, uncertainty. You can deliberately cross that line, that comfort line. Because all of our growth, all of our discovery, all of our evolution happens outside of our comfort zone. And if we are unwilling to step outside of our comfort zone, we will not grow, we will not discover, we will not evolve, and we will not even explore our potential, because our potential lies outside our comfort zone as well. So the ability to make a deliberate choice, to step outside your comfort zone because you have the confidence in this content and these tools is really what drives me because that's really what's accelerating human potential. And I love that.
- [21:35]
B
Have you seen that happen?
- [21:36]
A
Yes. Yeah, I've seen that happen on many. I get a lot of feedback from folks who read the book or get the content.
- [21:42]
B
Which book attributes or masters of both.
- [21:45]
A
I mean, the attributes really was. The feedback I got was really more of an exploration of self, which I love. I know so, so much more about myself and why I do the things I do and my teammates and why they do the things they do. So that's. And that continues to be a driving. For that book, the Master of Uncertainty book, I've gotten feedback. And the cool thing is feedback from all ages, all genders, people saying, hey, this has really helped me deal with X or why or what's going on. And that's a myriad of things that I hear. And that's. I love that because. Or. Or you also. I also hear I've actually been doing this all along, but now I know exactly what I'm doing. I can talk, I can. I can explain what I'm doing, which also really jazzes me because once you can explain it, you can again teach it to others, you can show it to others, and you can replicate it. And you can practice it. So, so that's what's been cool.
- [22:32]
B
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- [24:26]
A
One attribute, I can't remember which one was humility. Yeah, that doesn't surprise me at all.
- [24:31]
B
Yeah, I was surprised by my top attributes and then thinking about the, the team and then comparing it to my husband's and what I learned was there's different compatibility at work versus at home, but the person isn't the same.
- [24:48]
A
Yes. So, so what's interesting about the attributes and if someone takes like just like your, your 1 through 41 attributes ranked from your first, your top all the way down to your bottom. Couple things that's interesting is first of all that it has nothing to do with the scores, you know, so the scores just help with the ranking. And what it also highlights is that you are, we are in absence of none of These attributes, we have all of them. So you have your. I can't remember what your 41st was, but, but your, your 41st, you have, it's just you prioritize all the other attributes before that. You know, ahead of that, that list is how you act without thinking. That's you at your most raw. What we're constantly doing in everyday life with our attributes when there's not a lot of uncertainty, challenge or stress or even minimal is we're dialing up or dialing down those attributes very deliberately. So we are going into an environment and if you're low on patience, you're deliberately dialing up your patience. Or if you're high on. So one of my friends, team guy, his number one was humor. Not surprising. I said do you have to sometimes dial down your humor because the situation is like, oh yes, all the time. Because the joke I want to tell is completely inappropriate. Right. So he's, he's deliberately dialing down his attribute. We do this when we're able to consciously do it. It doesn't happen as easily or if at all at our most raw. So, so the, the cool thing about the attributes, it just shows you who you are at your most raw. And then it gives you an idea of how and when you're dialing these up or dialing down. That's what aids in anybody's ability to perform better.
- [26:12]
B
You know, in. We recently we were in Coronado for vacation. First week.
- [26:17]
A
I just missed you by the way.
- [26:19]
B
You did?
- [26:19]
A
You were in Coronado too? I was there last week.
- [26:21]
B
So yeah, it was. We were at the Hotel Dell.
- [26:23]
A
Yeah.
- [26:24]
B
Have you stayed there?
- [26:25]
A
I have, yes.
- [26:27]
B
And they have a new training facility and we were there. BUDS was not happening at the time. So BUDS is that selection process. Can you tell us a little bit about buds? And the follow up question is athleticism.
- [26:42]
A
Yeah.
- [26:43]
B
Athleticism isn't the biggest predictor if someone can become a Navy SEAL or not. I want to know why.
- [26:49]
A
Yes. So first buds, Basic Underwater demolition slash SEAL training is where regular Navy guys females are allowed but none have made it through yet go to become Navy SEALs. About an 85% attrition rate roughly on.
- [27:03]
B
Average how many people typically go through.
- [27:06]
A
So typically like my class for example and this is a typical number start with 170. We graduated 35. So that's typical numbers. Okay. Six months long and has the, has it's, it's all, it all sucks. But the infamous Hell week is, is week five where that's where you get the most quitters. That's where you start on a Sunday. You go all the way till that following Friday, during which you. You only sleep for about two hours the entire week. So you're constantly on the. On the go.
- [27:29]
B
I was with Robert.
- [27:30]
A
Yeah.
- [27:31]
B
And he was saying that he actually. They tell you guys they let you sleep, but I don't know if you.
- [27:37]
A
If you register, if it registers or.
- [27:40]
B
He said that he wakes them up after five minutes.
- [27:42]
A
Yeah, that's right.
- [27:42]
B
And then people think that they're sleeping.
- [27:44]
A
Yes. Oh, yeah, that's. But that's part of the hell of Hell week.
- [27:48]
B
No, that just sounds like having a newborn.
- [27:49]
A
Yeah, so. No, it's true. Yeah, that's. There's a whole, Whole separate. Whole separate hell few months that goes on when one has a newborn. So why does athleticism not. Is not. Why is athleticism not a predictor of success? It's because athleticism on its own is. Is a very certain endeavor, whether it be sport, whether it be just working out those who are very well. And I would say athleticism also has to do with your ability to the aptitude you have in sports. Okay, I was never, I never considered myself an athlete. I played lacrosse in high school. I never considered myself an athlete. I was okay at lacrosse. I think athleticism has to do with your ability to kind of conduct yourself in the sports environment. It also has to do with being in shape. But I think even being in shape is not a single predictor because that act of getting into super shape and being super fit is, again, a very certain act. I mean, you have to be. It has to be. You have to be disciplined. You have to go to the gym every day, you have to work out every day. You have to, you have to do the thing every day. BUDS is. And the other thing I'll say is, is a lot of athletes, when they're, especially in collegiate athletes, athletics, the. The goal is always to be hitting the field at 100%. And, and an athlete will do everything in his or her power to get themselves to 100% so that they can hit the field at their best. Okay. Everything about BUDS is we're going to take you to zero. And what do you got at zero? And so it is, it becomes, hey, we're going to make you do so many pushups that you can't do anymore. You can barely move. What do you have? And so they, they almost mitigate the athleticism to see where your mind goes. So BUDS is a mental endeavor. Um, this is why you have sometimes Division 1 athletes going to Buds and quitting within the first week. Meanwhile, the. The kid from the farm who's done nothing in terms of sports and flies through because it's a mental thing. So. So BUDS is designed to test your mental capacity. Now, you have to be in shape to be able to do what they're asking you to do. So. So you have to still be in shape enough to do the thing. But. But rest assured, it's not about. It's not about the physical, it's about the mental.
- [30:01]
B
Do you have to be taken to zero in everyday life to see what you're made of?
- [30:07]
A
No, not at all. You should you be. No, I wouldn't say you should. I think if there is. Well, first of all, we are all, as human beings, taken to zero in different ways. Some extraordinarily traumatic, which I wouldn't wish upon my worst enemy. Others, people just throw themselves into a spartan race or something like that, or go to buds. So there's different ways you can get to zero. I would say a couple things. First of all, you don't have to get all the way to zero. You have to really be willing to stretch yourself and move outside your comfort zone to a degree that you feel like, oh, actually, I just accomplished something. You'll know it. You'll know when you go outside your comfort zone and you make it through.
- [30:46]
B
I don't know if that's true.
- [30:48]
A
Well, I think it is because you get a dopamine reward for it every time when you do something really hard. And again, hard is subjective to the individual. I mean, hard for a person who's been sedentary their whole life. Might be I'm going to walk up the 10 flights of stairs instead of take the elevator for you and I, that's like, oh, I mean, I could run up 10 flights of stairs, but that's hard for them. And so when they accomplish that, they're going to feel the reward. You and I might not feel the reward, but they will. And so I think we have to be always cognizant of the subjectivity of what hard is and encourage people to do hard things. Getting in the ice bath for me is hard every single time.
- [31:22]
B
That's why I did a winter hell week or summer.
- [31:24]
A
Yeah, it was November, so it was winter. Yeah, it was not January, but it was still cold. It was considered in that zone. Getting the ice back bath is hard. Every single time I do it, I don't want to do it. I dread it. I just don't like it. That's. That's still Something hard. Same thing. When I do my, my, I do, you know, you know, Virginia, beautiful. But I do my sprints with my weight fest up Mount Trashmore. That, that big hill, I dread that too. But I do it because it's hard. So, so I think we need to encourage ourselves to push because we know, you know, the anterior mid cingulate cortex, that's the part of the brain that they've discovered that neuroscientists realize that when it's, it's activated when you do hard things, you do things you don't want to do, it's activated and it in fact grows the more you do that. And that's been linked to A, the ability to do hard things more frequently and B, what's really cool, it's been linked to longevity. So you actually, the more you, the more you tickle that part of your brain, the longer you live. So, so it's not only good for us as human beings to do hard things, it's in terms of just a day to day life. It's good just for your longevity to do hard things. And so.
- [32:29]
B
Oh, oh, sorry. It's time to record an ad for the show. Thank you to one of the small sponsors of the show, Timeline. And listen, my kids still sleep with me and after 470 nighttime snack requests, bathroom breaks, my husband snoring, my cells, they're like, yo G, we're tapped out. Enter Mitopure. Timeline Nutrition is one of the most thoroughly researched products I have come across in over a decade. Look carried in my purse. They have peer reviewed published science and this is where it gets really interesting. So for those of you who are following the muscle centric lifestyle, when you increase bioenergetics, you improve muscle function and health in adults. 40 + timeline has been shown to increase muscle strength and endurance and no change in activity. So whether you've been active resistance training your whole life or you're just getting started, or you're not getting a lot of sleep and you've got a million requests. Your muscles and your mitochondria need help and they have just launched their low sugar vegan non GMO gluten free gummies. Which by the way I am eating by the handfuls, which I shouldn't, but they taste delicious. Timeline is offering our community 20% off your first order. Go to timelinenutrition.com doctorlion and use the code Dr. Lion to get 20% off. I recommend trying their starter pack with all, all three different formats. And of course there are gummies which are Incredible. Physically hard things. There is a beginning and an end.
- [34:01]
A
Yes.
- [34:02]
B
Sprinting, ice baths, you name it. Mentally hard things, that seems like that's much more difficult to push. I'll give you an example. I thought that doing a book launch would be hard, or writing a book and doing all the things that come with it. And in retrospect, I think, well, was it hard or speaking in front of thousands of people, is that hard? And I find myself, and maybe you can relate if I find myself questioning, is that really hard or where is the edge and how am I stretching myself? I find that if it is mental, it's much more challenging to pull that lever.
- [34:42]
A
Yeah, I totally agree. I totally agree. Because that's where everything starts. And I will concede that we can work out in a way that adds the mental piece to it. But this is also why we need to take advantage of the lives we live. We are as human beings subjecting ourselves, and life is subjecting us to uncertainty, challenge and stress all the time. Hard stuff all the time. It's our job to recognize that. And don't mope and don't complain and don't brush it off like it's something you want to forget. Understand it, live it, feel it, and learn from it.
- [35:17]
B
Can you give me an example?
- [35:18]
A
Just take marriage as an example. I mean, Kristen and I, we get into healthy married couples, get into arguments. Those are hard. Those things suck. It sucks when you're in it. An ability to recognize that in the moment, or at least sometimes it's tough in the moment, but certainly as soon after the moment as possible as, hey, this is a challenge. Let's step, let's lean into that and let's make sure we make it work. That's recognizing hard stuff. The delayed or canceled flights during travel, those are hard things that you have to work through. These are what I call little tragedies that are allowing us to practice our horizon shifting, practice our resilience muscles in these little moments so that we get good when the shit happens that we haven't anticipated or the really big bad stuff happens. But all of us, every single one of us as human beings can tell at least, at least one or two or three stories throughout their lives where, man, that was a shitty time. And it's, it's incumbent on us, if we didn't do it back then, to look back at those and ask ourselves, okay, what did I do? How did I perform? How did I behave? What can I learn so that the next shitty thing that happens, you can actually start stepping through with more confidence.
- [36:31]
B
Would you say it's about mastering those little tragedies?
- [36:35]
A
It's. It's about mastering the tools that get you through those little tragedies which tell me so. So one of the biggest things that, that inhibits our performance is fear, because fear is this, you know, again, it's this emotion that tickles the amygdala. It gets our autonomic arousal engaged. Our brain begins to do weird things. As we. As our autonomic arousal goes up our frontal lobe, the decision making part of our brain begins to actually start taking a backseat to our limbic brain, which is the emotional part of our brain. And in the extreme cases, amygdala hijack or autonomic overload, it's a case where that frontal lobe has taken a complete backseat and we are in limbic decision making. In other words, we're acting without thinking. This stuff comes in very handy when we're jumping out of the way of the moving train or running from the bear. But in most scenarios in life, we want to actually engage our frontal lobe so we can decide. We can actually move through and decide. So, you know, Andrew Huberman and I are good friends. We met each other after as soon as I got out of the Navy. We did a lot of work together on this. He was still running his fear lab. And so what we did together, we started studying fear. He was studying fear kind of from a neuroscientific level. And we began to kind of explore what guys like Navy seals do to actually step through this. One of the things we hypothesized is that fear is in fact a combination of two factors. It's a combination of uncertainty plus anxiety. When you have either one of those without the other, you don't necessarily have fear. So you can be anxious without being uncertain. That might mean. I'm going to give a presentation next week. I know the presentation. I know the people I'm giving it to at work. So I'm a little anxious. But there's no uncertainty there. There's no fear. You can be uncertain without being anxious.
- [38:10]
B
Well, that's every uncertain without being anxious.
- [38:13]
A
That's every kid on Christmas Eve, okay? So there's no fear there. When you combine the two, that's when you start to get fear. And so the strategy for. And that's the type of uncertainty we're talking about, by the way. We're talking about the uncertainty that adds anxiety. That equals fear. None of us have any concern about the uncertainty about Christmas Eve, okay? The way we begin to Move through. That is, we buy down either the uncertainty or the anxiety or both. And so buying down uncertainty is a very specific set of tools that I talk about in the book. And this means what it looks to do is it looks to generate certainty. In an unknown and certain environment, you anchor on something and generate immediate certainty. What do I mean by that? In any environment, our brain is always trying to figure out what's going on. Our brain seeks certainty, so it's trying to figure out what's going on. Most of the time in an environment, it's through three factors, three distinct duration, how long this is going to last, pathway, what's my route in, out or through, and then outcome. What's the end state here? If we are in absence of one or more of those, we start to feel that uncertainty rise. Often anxiety comes with it. We'll just take illness as an example. Strep throat is an illness. We all know there's actually an antibiotic you can take for strep throat. If we get strep throat, we are only in absence of one of the three. We have the pathway. That's the amiotic. We have the outcome. I'm going to get better. What we don't necessarily have is duration, because antibiotics might work a little bit faster on you than they do for me. So we're in absence of one. Our uncertainty level is mild. Now let's talk about the flu, also a known illness. Nowadays, in today's society, most people recover from the flu. They don't die from the flu. However, when we have the flu, we are in absence of two factors. We know the outcome, we're going to get better. But there's no known thing you can take for the flu. So there's no known pathway. There's a lot of people who have ideas, but there's no codified way. So we're in absence of pathway or we're in absence of duration. Anxiety or uncertainty level is moderate. Now let's imagine a disease shows up no one's ever seen before, starts spreading across the planet. Some people are dying, some people aren't dying. No known vaccine. We don't know how long it's going to be doing this. Enter 2020. This is why when Covid hit, all of us were feeling the way we felt because we were in absence of all three of these. All this process we call it, I call it moving horizons does, is it basically allows you to pick something and ask yourself, what do I know? What can I control? Pick something to anchor on and in essence create your own DPO, duration, pathway outcome.
- [40:40]
B
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- [41:56]
A
An example during SEAL training would be this. And people can relate to this even if they're working out. But SEAL training was during Hell Week. You run around with those big heavy boats on your head all the time. It was three in the morning, we're running with these things, we're all miserable. We're on the beach next to a sand berm and I remember saying to myself, you know what? I'm just going to focus on getting to the end of this Sandburn. Now, what I did in that moment inadvertently is I picked a horizon. In essence created a dpo duration pathway, outcome, duration from now until end of Sandburn. Pathway from here to end of sand berm, outcome, end of Sandburn. And what I also did in that moment is I immediately engaged my dopamine system to start endeavoring or start moving forward in that goal. And then I also created a reward at the end that gave me a dopamine hit when I got it, which then allowed me to, once I hit that horizon, ask the question again. Okay, now what do I know and what can I control and pick a new horizon. Now this horizon shifting is basically generating certainty out of uncertainty. But the horizon shifting, the horizon picking is subjective to the individual and the intensity environment. And it's constantly moving. It's not always the same thing. Freezing in the surf zone, which we talk about winter hell week, you know, surf torture. I've never heard the end of it. Yeah, I mean, it's awful I remember freezing the surf zone zone. And I'd say my horizon at the time was, I'm going to count five waves. Sometimes my horizon was, I'm going to make it to the next meal. Sometimes my horizon was I was going to run to the end of Sandberg. It's all based on the subjectivity, because what you're doing, in essence is you're manipulating your own dopamine reward system. And dopamine, as we know, not just a reward chemical, it's a motivation chemical. We don't even get out of bed without dopamine in our system. And so if we pick a horizon, what we're doing is we're engaging our dopamine system. However, the reason why it's subjective in terms of how far or how short that horizon is because if we pick a horizon that's too far, we won't have enough dopamine to get to the end of it.
- [43:41]
B
Would that be, for example, somebody wants to lose weight and they pick a time frame that is eight weeks away.
- [43:49]
A
Yeah. Or they say, I'm going to lose 30 pounds in eight weeks. Okay, that is too far of a horizon. Well, again, it's subjective to the person. It might not be, but in most cases that'd be too far horizon. But I'll give you a more visceral example that you can can imagine because I just talked about Hell Week. A classic example is thinking about Friday of Hell Week on Monday. We always have a saying in buds. If you think about Friday on Monday, you're not going to make it. And in fact, they started doing exit interviews for guys who quit. It was probably 10, 12 years ago now, and I'm glad they did. But as they interviewed these guys and just said, hey, what happened? Nine times out of 10, the story was the same. It's like we had been doing X. We were still doing X. I couldn't imagine doing X for the next five days. Right. They could not shorten their horizon. Now, what's interesting is every single one of us human beings have done this at some level. Most of us who work out do it all the time. We don't go into a workout and say and think about the entirety of the workout. We say, what am I focusing? I'm going to do this muscle, I'm going to do this exercise, I'm going to do this set. We break it down into horizons by manipulating our dopamine system. In that way, if we pick up a horizon that's too far, we run out. By the way, if you quit Anything, it's because you've run out of dopamine.
- [45:03]
B
I like that. If you quit anything.
- [45:05]
A
Yeah. You've run out of dopamine. You picked a horizon that's too far. If you pick a horizon that's too close, then you won't register the reward. It won't feel like anything. And you'll know it. You'll know it both ways, which is.
- [45:14]
B
What do you mean, too close?
- [45:15]
A
So in other words, if I. If for. Okay, here's a great example. And I'll just reference a guy I talk about in the book. There was a guy who I met at a conference. He walked up to me. He introduced himself. He said he was an ultra runner, and his name was George. And I said, that's cool. I mean, how did you get into ultra running? Because I think it's insane. I would never run 100 miles.
- [45:33]
B
A hundred miles?
- [45:34]
A
Yeah. And he said, you might not believe this, but I used to be £300 or something like that. I said, oh, you got to tell me that story. He's like, well, I was frustrated. I was so frustrated one day with my weight, my health, that I decided that I was gonna run a marathon. You know, I said, okay, what'd you do? He's like, well, the first thing I did is I went home and I got online and I ordered running shoes, and those came. And when those came, I said, okay, tomorrow morning, I'm gonna put on my running shoes, which is what he did. Next morning, he said, I'm gonna put on my running shoes. I'm walked to the front door, which is what he did. Next morning, he walked to the mailbox. Next morning, he walked to the end of the street and slowly went up, went up and up. Now, if you and I, because we work out, we're athletic. If you and I decided I try to run twice a week, if we took a break from running for three months and we said, we're gonna start running again tomorrow, I'm gonna put on my shoes and walk in the mailbox. That's not gonna be enough of a horizon for us. It's very subjective. We won't register the reward. It has to be something bigger. So. So too small. It's just not going to be big enough. And you'll know it because you're just like. That didn't feel like anything too big. You'll know it because you're just. You're going to feel like you want to quit. The good thing is, we can modulate. If you feel like you picked a Horizon that's too far and you're in the middle of it. Bring it down a little bit. When I'm running my hills at Trashmore, it's about a. I would say about a 80 to 100 yard run uphill. And I started, I started just practicing or just doing this just to see what it felt like. I said, you know what, I'm going to. I'm going to pick a horizon that's 10 steps up the hill. I realized that was too small for me. I realized my best horizon is actually the top of the hill. Now for other people, it might be halfway up the hill and then go. If we're doing sets at a gym, sometimes we'll be doing sets and we'll want to do 12 and we'll do six and it's like, okay, just six more. What we've done there is we've adjusted our horizon in that moment. We've picked another horizon, a different focus point, so we can adjust these constantly just to get us through. And it's all subjective to the individual.
- [47:25]
B
It seems that if we go through life consciously, a lot of us, I mean, I can just speak for myself. I don't think about. Well, I do now think about the horizons. But I believe that many people are walking around with. My mom used to call it free floating anxiety. Have you heard of that?
- [47:43]
A
I haven't, but it sounds.
- [47:45]
B
Well, I will say it is fascinating sitting with you and just watching my husband. He's not anxious. I think to myself, hey man, I think you should be anxious about this. You have no idea what you're doing or what about this, what about that? And it's really interesting to watch an individual go through life without anxiety. It is completely different than an individual trying the amount of energy to navigate life with this idea of just anxiety. What would you tell someone who is walking around just feeling anxious and has not. Doesn't have a reason as to why, which I think that's a lot of people.
- [48:29]
A
That's a lot of people. There's two things. And now we're talking about. We talked about buying down uncertainty, now we have to talk about buying down anxiety. The first thing I'll mention is that anxiety causes stress in the system, which causes again, our autonomic arousal to go up. One of the ways there are physiological ways we can actually manage our stress. Okay. And there's breathing techniques, breathing tools, visual tools, which we can talk about. So that's one way to do this. However, what I'll say is this one of the biggest reasons why guys like us don't suffer from anxiety is because we completely reframe anxiety. Anxiety is quite literally fiction. Anxiety is always about what is might happen. It's always in the future. Now the past is history and the future is fiction. Now the, the effects of anxiety, the stress that's, that's the result of anxiety is completely present. That's the present physiological.
- [49:17]
B
Is it though?
- [49:17]
A
Well, yeah, because it's creating stress in our system. So that's very present. But, but what seals never do is worry about shit they can't control. Now, it does not preclude proper planning, of course. I mean, we're going to plan and say, you know, on a mission, we'll say, well, but we don't over plan. We'll say, hey, these three things are the biggest things that might happen. Let's plan for those we have. We'll put that on the shelf. That way we've mitigated the uncertainty window because we've planned for those. Other than that, we're like, hey, whatever happens, we'll figure it out along the way. We do not worry about things that are in the future. We anchor ourselves to the present moment and we let that anchoring take away any anxiety. So the key again, the stress that is the result of anxiety can be overwhelming. And in those cases, we have to employ. I would encourage everybody to employ, employ those physiological tools and those visual tools.
- [50:06]
B
Meaning what you talk about in the book, open gaze, size box.
- [50:10]
A
So open gaze is just soft gaze, right? If you're looking at a, if you pick a point on the wall and you're looking at a point and then you suddenly stop looking at the point, just soften your gaze.
- [50:18]
B
I don't know. I'm still stressed out when I tried that one.
- [50:20]
A
Okay, well, so feel how it works for you. I know when I started public speaking, which is not comfortable for me at all, I'd get up on stage and I immediately just open my gaze. Instead of staring at one thing, I kind of look to the back of room and open my gaze. That helps. It's not as powerful as the, as the respiratory tools. One of the most powerful respiratory tools of physiological Sigh. That's the deep breath in, all the way to the top, top it off, and then a slow and controlled exhale out. Okay. That actually has been proven to. In fact, we do this when we're going to sleep. We've heard our, our pets do this, by the way, our dogs do this all the time. It actually begins to calm you. And what, what by calming you it's bringing down, bringing down that autonomic arousal and reengaging your frontal lobe. That's really important because you cannot start picking horizons until you re engage your frontal lobe. What's very cool is you can combine the two quite immediately. Anybody who's really feeling stressed and anxious in a moment can say, you know what, my first horizon, take 10 breaths. That's their first horizon. I like that. Yeah. And they can actually combine the two. But what you're doing is you're anchoring into the present. Once you begin to do that, once you can control that and you can begin to move horizons, fear goes away. And I say that, you know, you might put it on a shelf, but I remember, you know, people have asked me before, have you, were you ever in a situation where you were really afraid, like in combat or something? And I answer them quite honestly, no. But the answer is not coming from a place of arrogance or bravado. The answer is literally, because in those moments when they happened, all of us were so focused on what we needed to do in the moment that we didn't worry about anything else. It was just step by step by step. So much so that it was quite often that after everything was done, maybe we were home from the op. All the reports. I was back in my hooch by myself. I think back and then the fear would hit like, holy shit, that was close. And I get all the physiological responses, but it's much better to get it there than, you know, later. And that also can be the seeds of PTSD as well, by the way, which is a whole other issue. But the idea is if we are actively picking horizons through a moment, we are actually mitigating uncertainty because we are mitigating anxiety because we're not focused on what could happen, because it's fiction.
- [52:27]
B
I'd like to acknowledge one of the sponsors, and that's our place. I'd also like to acknowledge my mom jokes that are coming in hot about my old pan. It was so toxic, even my veggies wanted to detox after dinner. That's bad. Seriously. Non steak cookware is still used. Very convenient, but it comes at a cost. Non stick contains harmful chemicals like teflon and other PFAs which can leach into your food. In our home, we use our place, which is toxin free, high performance cookware and appliances designed for safer, simpler use. The hidden dangers of traditional non stick cookware is loaded with forever chemicals. Dump them. It is not worth it. If you want to start somewhere, start with it. Four piece cookware set it is your best way to overhaul that kitchen. Stop cooking with toxic cookware. Stop spending time with toxic people. Upgrade your place today Visit from our place.com Dr. Lion and use the code Dr. Lion for 10% off site wide. That's 10% off site wide. With a hundred day risk free trial free shipping free returns. You will experience a game changing cookware.
- [53:41]
A
Another example of this, I was with a buddy of our, I was actually having lunch with a couple of buddies who we were all in, in Red Squadron together and some of the jumping profiles.
- [53:49]
B
Most people don't know what Red Squadron is.
- [53:52]
A
Yeah, that's one of the squadrons that DEB Group that we, that were part of. So but one of the things we do some insane skydiving profiles. So we do hey ho operations. High altitude, high uploading operations where you jump out of the plane, you go up to about 20,000ft, 22,000ft. You jump out of the plane at 22,000ft and you count to four and you open your parachute. So you're at about 20,000ft and you're flying to an unknown DZ which is literally a DZ that no one's recon before. We just looked at the map and said that looks like a clear spot but you don't know. You land there and then you, then you start your mission. You could patrol your target, all that stuff. And then of course you're at 20,000ft. So your night vision, oxygen, all that stuff, very intense and, and multiple pieces about an opera for an operation like this. Well, we were talking, we were having lunch, we were talking about one of these ops. It was a huge op, very serious target. Hey ho. And my buddy says, he says, you know what's funny? When that ramp opened up, there's only one thing I'm thinking and we're like what? He's like, nail the exit. And he's absolutely right. Because if you don't nail the exit, if you don't get a stable body position, your parachute's not going to open properly and they have a whole host of problems. So first horizon with all that in front of us, every single one of us are like, nail the exit. Once you nail the exit, pull my parachute. Once I get my parachute out, get on heading right, it's just step by step by step. And so anybody who suffers from anxiety should start to a reframe it. It's all fiction. It hasn't happened yet. So you're, you're literally worrying about something that hasn't happened and begin to anchor themselves in the present by using this moving horizons process and they will find themselves able to start stepping through more effectively. This is what guys like Shane and I do without thinking. And this is why.
- [55:26]
B
Exactly. Right. I don't see him think through this process. It is just an immediate reaction. And that you think people can get there.
- [55:34]
A
Oh yes. Yeah, we just practice on the small stuff, you know, practice on the small stuff. Start looking at some of the things that cause you. So doing hard things or causing anything that causes stress or hardship, practice with that. Working out is a great place. So even though working out is not an uncertain environment, you can practice it during working out, you can practice it during physical endeavors. You can practice it even making at work if you have to. Do you have a thousand things just say, you know what, I'm going to focus on this. I'm going to do email for 10 minutes. That's my horizon right now. I'm going to block out everything else. That's my horizon. You can practice this so that you start working through it and you'll find yourself A more productive. But B the anxiety will start to mitigate.
- [56:12]
B
What about this idea of identity? Where does identity fall in this scope?
- [56:18]
A
So in the book I break down the idea, the process or kind of the Mastering Uncertainty method comes in two parts. Part one is this idea of managing our own physiology and neurology. What I just talked about. The good news is every single human being has the ability to do this. We're all. It's ubiquitous in terms of our ability to move horizons and manage our physiology. The second part deals with what we individually bring into uncertainty. Okay, because we all are different types of automobiles. Some of us are Jeeps, some of us are SUVs, some of us are Ferraris. Maybe a Prius, maybe a Prius. And no judgment because the Prius can do things that Ferrari can't do and the Ferrari can do things the Prius can't do.
- [56:55]
B
But don't agree. Yeah, that's like be comfortable.
- [56:58]
A
Well, the idea, but the idea is, the idea is understand what vehicle you are because you are bringing, you are bringing something unique into whatever environment. This is what we do with teams when we put teams through this attribute stuff is we allow them to understand all the different types of vehicles on the team and how they mesh together. Because sometimes a Prius is what's needed to be up front. Sometimes it's a Ferrari that needs to be up, sometimes it's a Jeep. So all this to say we all have very unique individual profiles that we bring into uncertainty. Attributes is one of those. So understanding attributes is important. Identity is another huge one. Because identity is this idea that we all, as human beings are a collection of I ams. Now, anything we put after the words I am is. I always say, I am are the two most powerful words in the human language. Because anything we put after that, those two words, we begin to behave towards it forms an identity. But we are all a collection of different I ams. We collect them over a lifetime of experience. Some are benign. Some are pretty powerful. I went to this high school. I played lacrosse. I'm a husband and father. I'm a Navy seal. I'm a Metallica fan, okay? Whatever those I ams are, they all come with them certain rules and conditions and boundaries inside of which you behave to behave towards that identity. In uncertainty, challenge, and stress, we will behave towards whatever identity we are prioritizing in that moment. Okay? So in combat overseas, of course, my priority identity was Navy seal. Just as powerful an identity for me has always been husband, father. Okay? But in combat, Navy SEAL was priority. Now, sometimes the target would change and we'd have to take care of maybe some civilians. Husband and father identity would come to the fore, okay? But understanding which identities we have and what they're doing to our behavior actually is massively important. An example of this going the wrong way. We've all heard the story of the avid sports fan who beats the shit out of another sports fan, okay? And gets in trouble and suddenly is standing in front of the judge, and the judge is like, what the hell were you thinking? That person's like, I don't know what I was thinking. I was just doing. Now, what happened in that moment was that person in that moment was prioritizing that identity to a negative degree.
- [59:09]
B
But it's subconscious.
- [59:10]
A
Well, it's subconscious if you let it be subconscious. The reason why I bring it up in the book is because we can actually gain control of this by understanding what identities we're bringing to the table. If this person we just talked about had understood or thought about the fact that he also had an identity of professional businessman, maybe husband father said, you know what? As a professional businessman, as husband father, maybe I won't behave this way. I'm going to prioritize a different identity. So the power and the utility of understanding a our identities, the list allows us to bring to the fore the ones we need to in the moment, discard the ones we don't or not bring to the fore, or I would say even discard. There might be identities if we Go through the list because a lot. We have a lot. Okay, but go through the list and there might be ones that. You know what? This doesn't apply to me anymore. You know, Navy SEAL is a huge one and Shane would agree with me. You know, Navy seals, it's not like the Marine Corps. The Marine Corps is once a Marine, always a Marine. And the Marine Corps does a fantastic job of solidifying that identity. You can talk to 90 year old men who still refer to themselves as Gunny Sergeant. Okay. Not the same. The SEAL teams, SEAL teams has earned your trident every deck. As soon as you take that trident off, you are no Longer A Navy SEAL. Shane and I are former Navy SEALs now. That comes with it. A whole host of different behaviors, different identities, but part of the vacuum that a lot of guys feel when they leave the SEAL teams is because they've been holding on. They've been holding on the identity and no longer exists for them.
- [60:36]
B
And you were a commander. That's different. What is that?
- [60:39]
A
Well, that means I was an officer. In other words, I was in charge of teams and I was in charge of a SEAL command too. So I was commanding officer of a team as well.
- [60:48]
B
How does that work? They're all really alpha types.
- [60:52]
A
I loved it because a. In any type of leadership, there is. There's so much that goes into that. But there's often, and I talk to many civilian leaders, there's often sometimes a problem of just motivating your people. Okay. I never had to motivate my people. Right. For me, my biggest job was holding people back in some cases and providing them the environment to really excel. Now that kind of holding back can be sometimes a difficult challenge. But I think I'm a big collaborator. Collaboration is, you know, collaborative is one of my high attributes. And so to be able to work with such high performing individuals and just watch them and give them the space, because it was my job to really create an environment inside of which they could do everything they needed to do. Create the space. That's where I felt my job was. To watch them be able to succeed and do that was not only just a thrill, but also one of the greatest things I've experienced. Yeah.
- [61:49]
B
Do you find that because you guys did such hard things together that it created a bond?
- [61:55]
A
Yes. So here's another good thing about hard stuff, and this is something Huber and I talked about. When we learn anything, experience anything, we create a neural connection in our brain. Okay. And what happens is we create that neural connection, that neural network, and then that that connection Begins to myelinate as we repeat that. So if we're learning something and we, and we repeat it over and over again, that that network begins to. Or that connection begins to myelinate, which is like a substance that goes around this kind of coaxial cable. Once that's fully myelinated, what mean. What that means is that that connection, that the energy is going immediately. In other words, you don't have to think about what you're doing anymore. So, so just take driving a stick shift car. When we first learn how to drive a stick shift stick shift car, we're thinking about it every, you know, everything. We're thinking about those, those connections are new and they're not myelinated very well. As we do it over and over again and we achieve unconscious competence, that means those connections have been myelinated fully. We can do it without thinking. Neuroscience has proven that that whole process, the connective process and the myelination process can in fact increase 100 to a thousand times sometimes. If three things are present in the environment. Those three things are intensity, novelty, and focus. This is exactly why being told a stove is hot is different than touching a hot stove. Because touching a hot stove involves all three of those. You will never touch a hot stove again. Why do I say that? Is because the reason why we find that relationships strengthen oftentimes.
- [63:18]
B
You said intensity, novelty, and, and focus.
- [63:21]
A
So this, this environment is very intense, it's novel, it's somewhat new, and then it's. I'm deeply focused. This is why we learn more from our mistakes than we do our accomplishments. Because whenever we fail or make mistakes, those three things are absolutely predominant. Not as much when we succeed. There's a difference there. It's also why when we fail together as groups, it creates these bonds because we're actually creating these networks at the same time.
- [63:48]
B
Do people have to experience the same level of failure?
- [63:51]
A
No, I don't think so. I mean, everything's subjective and it's really whatever feels. I mean, again, for you and I, as in doing what we've done, failing at something, we might be like, yeah, that's not a big deal, or someone else who has never experienced that, that is a huge deal for them. That's why I'm always. Emotion's a very subjective thing, so I always have to be. We always have to be cognizant of what other people consider hard because it's.
- [64:14]
B
Real to them, having been through life and death situations. And again, this goes back to what it takes to become a seal and seals are not normal. And I. And I. I truly do believe that there's a certain level that can be trained up. But there is. There is what I believe in. And I. I don't know if this is true. A particular set of attributes. Not skills.
- [64:40]
A
Right.
- [64:40]
B
But a particular set of attributes that when stress, uncertainty, and chaos arise, these individuals have an ability to perform. Which brings me to you. You've been in very austere environments. You've done really hard things, and now you are living a civilian life.
- [64:59]
A
Yeah.
- [65:00]
B
In order to maintain a certain level. And happiness is not the right word.
- [65:06]
A
I agree. Happiness is fleeting, and you don't want it all the time. Yeah.
- [65:09]
B
Right.
- [65:10]
A
Satisfaction.
- [65:11]
B
Okay.
- [65:11]
A
Fulfillment.
- [65:12]
B
There you go. You have now set the bar extremely high. How do you put yourself in an environment where you have to or will give you that same feeling?
- [65:25]
A
Well, it's not gonna be the same feeling first off. I get used to that, okay? And my buddies and I talk about that. It's not the same feeling, however. It's a different feeling, and it's just as serious. Listen, I wrote a book and began a business with my wife. I mean, she and I work for no one. We work for ourselves, and we're building a business together, that is. And we have two kids. We have one kid in college and one getting ready to go. So these are, you know, speaking in front of crowds.
- [65:50]
B
You know, that's easy for you now.
- [65:52]
A
It's easy for me now, but it's only because I inoculated myself to do it.
- [65:56]
B
But now what do you do?
- [65:57]
A
I continue to build a business, you know, and we pivot the business. We ask ourselves, what's the next level that we need to do? Parenting, regardless of the age, is a. Is a stressful endeavor because you're constantly asking yourself, what do I do? Am I doing it right? How do I accomplish this? Staying married for, you know, 24 years and onward, you know, is.
- [66:19]
B
But you get what I'm saying. There's a level of this book. So. Masters of Uncertainty. Look how well worn this is.
- [66:25]
A
Yeah.
- [66:25]
B
I actually travel with this book, by the way.
- [66:28]
A
I wrote it small just so people would.
- [66:29]
B
So, yeah, love it. And it's, you know, I mark in it. And so I'm never giving this book away. Also, it has writing and markings.
- [66:39]
A
I signed that. Right?
- [66:39]
B
You did.
- [66:40]
A
Of course you did.
- [66:41]
B
Yes. I would be very upset if I lost it. But there is a level of stress, uncertainty, and chaos. And then people become. People like you become really good at managing life in order to grow, and there's business growth. But I'm talking about putting yourself. And again, I look at Shane, it's very hard for him to be in a situation where it's pushing him. I mean, the guy is running marathons now while he's working 120 hours a week. But for someone like you and I also, I'm asking this because I think about for myself, there's being busy and working hard, and then there's really pushing yourself to the edge. For example, for me, I am a mom of two kids. I don't have full time help. I just wrote my second book. I'm podcasting, I'm doing these things. But when I reflect and I say, okay, is this really hard or is this requiring me to be diligent and focused? How do you put yourself in a position where you're functioning at that edge?
- [67:47]
A
Well, first of all, don't mitigate the things you're doing as not being hard. You're just processing them in a way that you say to yourself, oh, was that hard? You just, you have learned to process Shane, what he's doing. He is still. He's moving horizons. And. And when he's running these long races or doing what he's doing, he might be moving about very minute levels, which means he's exercising this muscle constantly. It's really not about the thing. It's about, are you exercising the muscle? That's what you're doing. And whatever endeavor we're trying to do, whatever next phase we are, constantly. I'm constantly exercising that muscle.
- [68:19]
B
Even if comfort kills.
- [68:21]
A
Comfort kills, right. So I always say, you know, Kristen and I were talking about this the other day is I always say, I always endeavor to be massively grateful but never satisfied. That's what I always want to be. I want to be. And I am, I'm very grateful for everything. You know, everything that we've done, everything accomplished, everything up till now, massively grateful. But I want to maintain at least a small level of dissatisfaction so that I'm always looking to the next horizon. What's the next place we can go? What's the next goal we want to accomplish? So. So, yeah, getting out of the Navy was okay. Can I first of all function? I don't know, Can I get a job, which I did. Then, okay, can I write a book? And then can we build a business? Now that's the current endeavor to include a second book and I write a second book. That's the current endeavor. I don't know what the next endeavor will be. 5 to 10 years from now I'm going to focus on this horizon. And then once that horizon is to a position where like, okay, actually this feels good, what's my next pivot? But what I can guarantee is I will always pivot. There will always be something I'm pivoting to so that I'm challenging myself in some way. Again, we ask where we get this stuff. My dad is 80. Both my parents, they're divorced, but they're both very tough people. Where'd you grow up? Connecticut? Yeah, and my dad's a lawyer. He's 85, right? 85, 84. It was two years ago, about two years ago. So it was 82, 83 and it was January. And he sent us, he'd been a lawyer at a law firm there in the town. We grew up, up for 40 years. And he wrote us an email. The kids, you know, I've, I have three siblings. And said, you have a twin. One twin and then an older sister and a younger brother. He wrote us an email and said, hey kids, just want to let you know, everything changes. You know, the, the law firm has realized. And he was a partner for a while, but then he kind of stepped back to me a little bit less. He said, the law firm has, has discovered that it can no longer sustain itself to a reasonable financial model. So it's. So after a hundred year old law firm, so after 100 years it's closing its doors. He said, but no worries. I've already interviewed at three other law firms and I've decided to take a job at this one law firm. I'm gonna start in a week. So he's an 82 year old man and he's going, and he started a new job at a new law firm. Now he's at this law firm he loves. He said, I'm surrounded by young people who are, you know, teaching me things. I'm able to mentor them to a degree. There's other people. He's. I'm learning a lot. He's active, he said, he said, rich, I wouldn't know what to do with myself if I didn't want. He loves the law. He loves doing what he does. This is what I'm talking about. If we are not staying active, if we're not picking the next horizons, we're not picking the next goal, then we're going to just wilt. And so I don't plan to do that.
- [70:54]
B
The idea that winners are calm under pressure and I say winners loosely, but are there top one or two attributes that people that are Very successful. Have.
- [71:07]
A
Yes, I'm going to give you the kind of soft answer, but it's probably the best answer. But then I'll give you more specificity. The soft answer, which is the best answer is. The answer is yes, but I don't know which ones they are because it's completely subjective to whatever environment they're in. The super successful accountant, the attributes for that person are different than the super successful Navy seal, than the super successful teacher or nurse, whatever that is. Now, all that said, I think that the, if I were to. If you put a gun to my head and said, hey, what are the really important.
- [71:41]
B
Probably happened.
- [71:42]
A
Yes. Well, I would say compartmentalization is one. Compartmentalization is the attribute that, that allows for moving horizons. And, and so, and so. So Navy seals, for the guys who make it through buds, we all show up to the beaches of buds on day one with a level of this we have to, because we're not going to make it through the first day. And it just gets hyper developed. Right. The guys who don't make it through buds, they just didn't show up with as much. So compartment compartmentalization is one, courage is another. And by courage I mean again, we have to understand courage is the ability to step into our fear. When we get afraid, our amygdala gets tickled. We are offered two choices. Those two choices are fight or flight. Right. Fee or they've determined that the freeze one is just an oscillation between the two. But those two choices are actually separate switches in the brain. So we choose to flee, it's one switch. If we choose to fight, it's another switch. That is step into our fear. That fear, that step in switch is a card. It's known as the courage switch. So we have no access to that courage switch unless we have fear present.
- [72:43]
B
We have no access to courage unless we have fear present.
- [72:46]
A
Right. Which is, which tells us something neurologically that we've all heard philosophically, which is courage is impossible in the absence of fear. You do not have courage in the absence of fear. You can't. All this to say fear is entirely subjective to the human being. You can have a group of Navy SEALs in a gunfight with Al Qaeda in Afghanistan who are in that moment feeling less fear than the 8 year old. You just has to step in front of the class and introduce themselves. Okay, so it's subjective. So you can be a generally anxious person. But every day and all day, you're consistently stepping into your fear, you're consistently stepping into discomfort, your courage Level is really high. You could be someone who does crazy shit. Right. And you're not accessing that car research Now. I don't know if you've seen that. I'm sure you have seen the. The documentary. Free Solo Alex Honnold right now. Insane. I mean, free. Free climbing this up. I get sweaty palms when I watch it. They looked at his brain. They recognize that his amygdala doesn't get tickled like normal people's. Right. It takes a while for his amygdala to get tickled, I. E. He's not accessing that courage switch the same way other people are now. And I'm saying. And I'm not saying Alex is not courageous, but he's not accessing the switch the same way someone else's.
- [73:51]
B
I see.
- [73:51]
A
Yeah.
- [73:52]
B
It takes less courage for him.
- [73:53]
A
It doesn't. It in some cases doesn't take any courage for him because he's not feeling the fear. He doesn't get courage. None of us get courage until we feel fear. So courage as an attribute is your ability to consistently and habitually step into your discomfort and fear. I think that's a very important attribute for all successful people.
- [74:11]
B
So do you have to follow that up with mental reframing, for example? Some individuals will go through their life. I don't know if you know this, but I trained in psychiatry for two years.
- [74:20]
A
I remember you saying that. Yeah, yeah.
- [74:22]
B
And you'll see people go through the same process and not necessarily move the needle with their anxiety. And I think looking at the tools in this book, going back, had I known. And I'm sure that you've got moments where if you could take what you learned now to go back, maybe those guys wouldn't have failed. Out of buds.
- [74:42]
A
Yeah.
- [74:43]
B
But you probably, you know, and just thinking about the brain, the brain becomes wired to do a certain thing. Our brain may become particularly accustomed to that level of anxiety.
- [74:54]
A
Yes.
- [74:55]
B
That even if you. That they almost don't seem to get better at managing it. It is. They wake up, they feel anxiety and then they go to bed and they. Because they've now anchored this neurology.
- [75:09]
A
Yeah. You bring up a great point. This is. By the way, it has everything to do with dopamine and the dopamine reward we get from. It's not. It's really the. It's really the. It's not just the anxiety. It's what the anxiety pushes them to do or feel. I have my. My knee. My cousin, she now lives in Virginia Beach. She does social work. She's a wonderful human being. And she helps people with homeless. Homeless people find housing. And she's been in this work for years. But she was telling me a very interesting story. She said there's some cases where they have someone who's been homeless for years and they finally get this person in a house, and after five days, the person ditches and is back on the street. And one of the reasons is because these people have developed this addiction almost to the idea of. And the process of getting up and figuring it out all day, it's just not exciting enough. They don't get that dopamine reward. So I think. I think sometimes we can get trapped in this moment or phase where our anxiety is actually giving us the dopamine that's actually driving us. And so we just have to. And again, is that bad or good? I think it's. Again, that's subjective. We have to decide, is that actually progressing our lives or it's a tough way to live.
- [76:16]
B
It might get the job.
- [76:17]
A
I would agree. I certainly, certainly physically, because with that stress that comes from that anxiety comes cortisol and all the bad neurobiology if kind of used for extensive periods. So I would say it's much better if you can start to practice these tools and mitigate anxiety by these tools versus lean on anxiety for the actual rush itself.
- [76:44]
B
If you gave people one piece of advice, if they're thinking about this and they want to become tougher, what would that. That piece of advice be?
- [76:54]
A
Practice doing hard things. Do hard things because. Because you will. Because that anterior mid cingulate cortex will actually grow. You'll tickle it. It'll grow, it'll get you. You will find yourself able to do harder things more frequently. You will add to the. To the years on your life, and you will start to gain confidence because as you use these tools, all masters of uncertainty do is we use these tools without thinking. We default to this stuff. You'll appreciate this. I might have told you a story at one point, but there in Virginia beach, we've lived there for 22 years and we've been in the same house. And across the street, there's a seal. Down the road to the left, there's a seal, or used to be. And down the road to the right, there's a seal. And my wife once said, she said, I'm so glad these guys are in the neighborhood. And I said, why? She said, because if something happened and I needed them, I could go to them and you weren't around, I could go to them and they'd act like you act. I said, what do you mean? Because every time the shit hits the fan, all you guys do is you start, you just stop, you calm down, you start problem solving. All we're doing is we're moving horizons. We start moving horizons without thinking about it. We just like, okay, what's, what do I focus on? This, this, this. We just start stepping through the process. So, so mastering this, this stuff is really about getting to the point where you're doing it without thinking. And like I said, it'll a allow you to do better when uncertainty hits without warning. But more importantly, it'll give you the confidence to start stepping deliberately into your discomfort and starting to really explore your potential.
- [78:12]
B
Well, Rich Devini, I love this book, Masters of Uncertainty. I highly recommend everybody get this and also get your attributes book. This was before I knew you personally. I love that book and I am just a huge supporter of the attributes book and the test. You're really doing some great work, incredibly articulate and I just, I'm really grateful. Thank you.
- [78:32]
A
Thank you for your support. Thank you for being such a great friend. Because it's a great journey. It's nice to be. Nice to have great friends along the journey. So thank you, Sam.