← The Dr. Hyman Show
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- [00:00]
Dr. Mark Hyman
Hey everyone, it's Dr. Mark Hyman. Thank you so much for being a loyal listener to the Doctors Pharmacy for the holidays. I've decided to give my team a little break to rest up and prepare for more content and the new year ahead. So the Doctors Pharmacy will be replaying some older episodes for the next two weeks. But don't worry, we'll be back with more content and brand new episodes starting Tuesday, December 31st. So for now, here are some of my favorite past episodes of the Doctor's Pharmacy and see you next year. Coming up on this episode, Food is information that it's medicine, that it's instructions, it's code. It programs your biology with every bite. So you you must understand that you're interacting with things not just from an energy perspective, not just fuel to run your body, but instructions that code for every single function of what's going on. If you're a regular listener, you know that I often talk about the gut being central to your whole body health and the key to living those hundred healthy. And this includes your skin. Thanks to a fascinating connection known as the Gut Skin Axis. The state of your gut can influence your skin's health and appearance, reflecting what's happening inside your body. That is where seeds DS01 daily symbiotic can be so effective. DS01 is more than just a probiotic for digestive health. With 24 clinically and scientifically studied probiotic strains and a plant based prebiotic. It's designed for benefits in and beyond the gut, including healthy regularity, gut immune function, gut barrier integrity, heart health and yes, even clear healthy skin. DS01 is formulated with specific probiotic strains and a plant based prebiotic clinically validated to support clear skin and to reinforce the gut skin axis, supporting healthy aging and nourishing the skin from the inside out. My belief in Seed science and their mission to set a new standard in probiotics is so strong that I've even joined their clinical board. Seed is offering my community 25% off to try DS01 for themselves. Visit seed.comHyman that's S E-E-D.comHyman H Y M A N and use the code 25Hyman to redeem 25% off your first month of seeds DS01 Daily Symbiotic at seed.comHyman and use the code 25Hyman one of today's sponsors is Butcherbox. Protein is a foundational component of many healthy diets, including my own vegan diet. But too often the meat and Seafood you get at the store has been raised unsustainably and contains harmful compounds that should never have been there in the fridge first place. So if you're looking for quality proteins that are better for you and the environment, my friends at Butcherbox can help. Butcherbox makes it super easy to get humanely raised meat that you can trust by delivering it right to your doorstep. Butcherbox has everything you could want, like 100% grass fed and grass finished beef. And shipping is always free. Butcherbox is committed to humanely raised animals that are never given antibiotics or hormones. And every ButcherBox product is third party animal welfare certified. So it's better for the animal, better for the farmers, and better for you. There is a major stipulation I always tell my patients about when it comes to animal protein, quality needs to be a priority. And with Butcherbox you can feel good knowing you're getting the highest quality meat and seafood that will help you thrive. Right now, Butcherbox has a special offer. New members can get free ground beef for a year. Just go to butcherbox.com pharmacy and use the code pharmacy that's B u t c H-E-R b o x.com pharmacy with an F F A R M A C Y hey, it's Emma Chamberlain.
- [03:25]
Cindy
I designed these new glasses for Warby Parker and I basically can't take them.
- [03:28]
Emma Chamberlain
Off like I'm showering in them and sleeping in them.
- [03:32]
Cindy
They're just that good.
- [03:33]
Dr. Mark Hyman
Go see them all@warbyparker.com and you know what?
- [03:37]
Emma Chamberlain
Have a good day too.
- [03:39]
Cindy
Okay?
- [03:40]
Emma Chamberlain
All right, bye.
- [03:42]
Dr. Mark Hyman
Now, before we jump into today's episode, I'd like to note that while I wish I could help everyone by my personal practice, there's simply not enough time for me to do this at scale. And that's why I've been busy building several passion projects to help you better understand. Well, you. If you're looking for data about your biology, check out Function Health for real time lab insights. And if you're in need of deepening your knowledge around your health journey, well, check out my membership community Dr. Hyman Plus. And if you're looking for curated trusted supplements and health products for your health journey, Visit my website drhyman.com for my website store and a summary of my favorite and thoroughly tested products. Are you ready to prioritize wellness? Maybe you want to make more informed choices on the latest health trends or simply understand the science. I'm Dr. Mark Hyman. I'm a wellness expert and I want to welcome you to my podcast Health Hacks in every episode I'll provide guidance on how to live a longer, healthier life, helping you wade through all the health ads and the sound bites to bring you the science backed facts along with practical tools and insights to make informed decisions. Health Hacks is available in audio and video so you can tune in wherever and however you enjoy your podcasts. Join me every Tuesday for a new episode just search for Health Hacks where my goal is to empower you to live well. Hi, I'm Dr. Mark Hyman, a practicing physician and proponent of systems medicine. A framework to help you understand the why or the root cause of your symptoms. Welcome to the Doctor's Pharmacy. Every week I bring on interesting guests to discuss the latest topics in the field of functional medicine and do a deep dive on how these topics pertain to your health. In today's episode I have some interesting discussions with other experts experts in the field. So let's just jump right in. The Pegan diet is basically the approach that I've created and it's really a flexible, inclusive framework. It's built on a few key principles and these are central principles. No matter what nutritional philosophy you ascribe to, I think they're universal. First is focus on quality. The quality of the ingredients, the quality of the nutrients, the quality of the food you're eating matters. So much so you know is a some sun ripened tomato off your vine at the end of August in an organic little garden you have in the backyard. Better quality than a industrially produced tomato that's designed to fit in a box and not squish and last for months on this shelf and tastes like cardboard. The same. No focus on quality. Whether it's real food or whatever you're eating, try to get the highest quality, most nutrient dense food you can. And obviously that means no ultra processed food. Understand that food is information, that it's medicine, that it's instructions, it's code that programs your biology with every bite. So you must understand that you're interacting with things not just from an energy perspective, not just fuel to run your body, but instructions that code for every single function of what's going on. Your microbiome, your metabolism, your brain chemistry, your immune system, everything and I could go on the list goes on is regulated by what you eat in real time. And the last principle after quality and food is medicine and information is personalization. Not everybody needs the same diet. Some people do better on low carb, some people do better on low fat, and some people do better on Paleo. Some do better as Vegan. So we have to see what works for you and we have to be smart about it. But you want to make sure you eat a diet that is very much focused on these principles and it also follows a few other things. One, it should be low in starch and sugar, low glycemic, super, super important. I can't stress that enough, I've said it forever. But it's really important because that drives so much of the age related diseases too. It should be full of good fats, avocados, olive oil, nuts and seeds. If you're tolerant of saturated fats and you don't eat them with carbs and sugar, you can have coconut butter, coconut oil and even grass fed butter or ghee. And make sure you eat foods that are full of phytochemicals, lots of colorful plant foods with anti inflammatory detoxifying hormone balancing energy busting gut healing compounds. And that's a nutrient dense diet that's full of longevity rich, I mean longevity producing phytochemicals, polyphenols, which are plant chemicals, antioxidants, microbiome, healing fiber, probiotics, prebiotics, postbiotics, all of it. And this is designed to basically regenerate human health and planetary health, which is something you can't separate. So our health is intimately tied to the planet's health. Our own health is tied to the soil health. The nutrients of soil are how we get our nutrients. So it really is a beautiful ecosystem that we learned mostly how to destroy. But today I'm going to talk to you about how would you follow the Pegan diet? What does it look like? First of all, it's a plant rich diet, not a plant based based diet. And that's an important distinction. Plant based implies vegan. Plant rich means your diet's mostly plants. And that should be 3/4 of your plate covered with colorful veggies, lots of colors, weird things, mostly non starchy veggies. I do eat a purple sweet potato or sweet potatoes. Fine. Winter squashes are fine. Especially if you're not insulin resistant or diabetic. Try to choose organic or regenerative. When possible, use the Dirty Dozen guide and the Clean 15 guide from the Environmental Working Group. That's EWG.org download those guides and you'll learn all about which are the foods you want to stay away from that are the worst contaminated. For example, don't ever eat strawberries unless they're organic or nectarines for example. Whereas you can eat avocado or banana if it's not organic. Also load up on the good fats, what should you be eating? Well, nuts and seeds. Try to eat fats in their whole food forms. Seeds and nuts, avocados, pasture eggs, fatty fish like mackerel, sardines, herring, anchovies, some wild salmon. That's small. Olive oil also is a very minimally processed oil. Try to stay away from the hexane extracted deodorized solvent. You know, mixed. Refined oils that we eat are predominantly refined oils. If you're going to eat canola or soybean oil, I don't highly recommend that. But they can be part of cooking and other things if you want and only if they're expeller pressed. Only if they're organic. Mostly they're gmo, Mostly they're splayed with glyphosate. You just stay away from that. So for cooking I use extra virgin olive oil for no heat or low heat. Avocado for higher heat. Avocado oil, I like that. And extra virgin coconut oil. Also use nuts and seeds. They are tremendous. They should be every day a couple of handfuls of nuts and seeds really help with weight loss, diabetes, heart disease. They're a great source of minerals, fiber, fat, protein, nutrition and lots more stuff. Almonds, walnuts, peans, hazelnuts, macadamia nuts, pumpkin seeds, hemp seeds, chia seeds, sesame seeds are all great. I like pine nuts too. I put that on there also. What about meat? Should we be vegan? Should we be carnivores? Should we be Paleo? You know, we do need protein and we need animal protein, especially as we get older to build muscle. If you don't have enough protein in the right forms with the right amount of leucine, which is a very important amino acid to build muscle, you will lose muscle as you get older. And if you see people who are vegan, as they're older, they tend to be more frail, more thin, less muscle mass. And muscle mass is the currency of longevity. So you want to make sure you keep maintain and build muscle as you get older. And so it doesn't mean you have to be eating, you know, 20 ounce steaks, it just means you need 30 grams and that's not much. It's a palm sized piece of protein or equivalent at each, at each meal. So make sure you're using regenerative meat if you can. I there's a company called Force of Nature which sources regeneratively raised meat from around the country or even around the world. It's really good for you. It's full of phytochemicals it's raised in humane ways. Harvest in humane, raised. So it's really a beautiful, beautiful way to support a growing food system that supports regenerative agriculture. If you can, you can get grass fed, pasture raised, organic when possible. Also making sure that, that if you are plant based and vegan, you may need extra protein powders and you're going to be having processed food. It's processed food which is processed protein powders. You're gonna have ones that are just more from whole ingredients. But you have to make sure they have added amino acids, particularly leucine and particularly branched chain amino acids because you will not be able to get enough by just having the basic plant based protein. When you, when you also look at fish consumption in addition to meat, great source of protein, but I would stick with the small fatty fish. Sardines, herring, anchovies, mackerel, small wild salmon, high in omega threes, low in mercury. There's a great company out there called Sea Topia Fish that source regeneratively aquaculture raised fish. It's low in toxins, tastes great, low in mercury and full of omega 3s, and, and actually great plant based phytochemicals that come from the feed they're eating. So check that out. If you want to learn how to lower your intake of more toxic fish, go to Environmental working group. You can use the Monterey Bear Aquarium guide or the NRDC guide for low mercury fish. Grains. What about grains? Well, whole grains are fine for most people. I wouldn't, you know, be eating six cups of brown rice which is 30 grams of protein. But you know, small amounts of half a cup to a cup can sometimes be fine. Whole grains if they're more ancient grains, if they're not bred to be super starchy. So I would encourage you to eat weird grains like heirloom grains, Himalayan tary buckwheat, ancient forms of wheat. If you're not gluten sensitive like Einkorn Emmer or Farrow, but don't have them ground as flours, except some of them you know, may be okay, like Himalayan turtle buckwheat. A small amount of flour can be fine, but you wanna make sure you're, you're actually eating a, a low glycemic protein rich, mineral rich form of whole grains. Not the, the, the ones that have been hybridized and processed in the ways we eat them. So don't eat whole grain flour, don't eat flour products and, and try to avoid gluten, especially in America because there's many reasons, you know, most, most Gluten in this country is grown with dwarf wheat. It's sprayed with glyphosate at the end. It's super starchy. It has way more gluten proteins that cause celiac or non celiac gluten sensitivity. So I'd really reduce that sugar. Obviously, you know, stay away from that stuff. I mean a little bit fine here and there, but as a staple should not be part of your diet. It's occasional treat as a recreational drug. And also just remember below your neck, your body can't tell the difference between a bowl of sugar and a bowl of cereal or a bagel. Also oils eliminate most of those refined oils. All those especially corn and grapeseed and sunflower. If they're high o lake, they can be okay. If they're, you know, expeller cold pressed, they may be okay. But stick with the main oils that come from olive oil and avocado oil, you'll be doing fine. And dairy, what about dairy? Well, dairy, you know, it typically is raised in this country with a homogenous, not homogenized, but homogenous genetic cow, which is the Holstein cow and that's A one casein. It's very inflammatory. They're pumped full of hormones, growth hormone, they're often milk while pregnant and you get, you know, flood of hormones and inflammatory compounds and inflammatory forms of casein. And if you want to have dairy, try sheep or goat. Try A two cows which you can get like Guernsey and Jersey cows or A2 cows. And if you have the wrong kind of dairy, it's going to drive inflammation, cancer, osteoporosis, believe it or not. Yes, it's not good for your bones. That's a whole other conversation. You can, I think read my blog called six reasons to avoid milk and where you can go on and read about David Ludwig's article on medium on milk which he reviewed all the literature recently about it and it showed that it really is not a health food. I recommend mostly avoiding it. Occasional grass fed, you know, sheep or goat cheese or yogurt or milk can be fine. Ghee is fine because it doesn't have the milk solids in it. So grass fed ghee is also fine. So that's basically it. Eat real food. Personalize your approach. Think of food as medicine. Focus on quality. You can be super flexible and all that and hopefully you can follow these principles and activate your body's own healing response, improve your health and use it like I have in my practice, to use food as medicine and live a longer, healthier life. Let's Talk about something we often take for granted. Our feet. Did you know that the human foot is an evolutionary masterpiece that has over 100 muscles, tendons and ligaments, is packed with thousands of nerve endings. They're built to keep a strong balance and moving naturally. But we're cramming them into stiff, narrow shoes that mess with this perfect design for far too long. That's where vivobarefoot comes in. These shoes are all about bringing your feet back to life. Wide, thin, flexible so your feet can move the way nature intended. Plus, they've got Vivo Health, a platform loaded with corset to help you maximize your foot health and overall wellness. And here's the kicker. VivoBarefoot is committed to sustainability and regeneration generation. Astoundingly, 22 billion pairs of shoes are made every year on complex, most toxic supply chains and they're all ending up in landfills. Vivo makes it shoes with either natural or poly circular materials that have the Rebevo platform where they repair, recycle and recondition shoes to keep them out of landfills. It's time to let your feet feel the ground again. So head to vivobarefoot.com Dr. Hyman to get 20 off. That's V I B O B A R E F O-O-T.com forward slash dash R-H Y-M A N and use the code HYMAN20 and feel the difference. Today, looking for a pickup truck to get just about anything done? Look no further. The Chevy Silverado EV isn't just the most powerful Silverado ever with next level towing capability and technology. It also offers game changing versatility with the available multiflex midgate and tailgate. Which means Silverado EV helps you carry large, bulky and oddly shaped items up to nearly 11ft in length. Chevrolet together. Let's drive. Visit Chevrolet.com to learn more.
- [17:56]
Cindy
So sleep is when we're repairing the powers of both the mind and the body. Sleep is when we reduce inflammation, repair tissues. The discovery of the glymphatic system in 20122013 as this passive channel that runs alongside our arteries and veins in the brain that fills with fluid when we're in deep sleep and allows a washing out of debris we may have accumulated during the day.
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Dr. Mark Hyman
So all those bad thoughts get washed out?
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Cindy
Well, not the bad. Well, the bad thoughts, no. But the amyloid plaque, that sticky plaque that we secrete in response to inflammation or injury. If it accumulates, of course it can damage surrounding neurons and is associated with neurodegenerative disease and Alzheimer's disease.
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Dr. Mark Hyman
So in English that means if you don't sleep, you're likely to get demented.
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Cindy
It's definitely playing a role. And this concept of bidirectionality, we know that sleep disruption, circadian rhythm disruption, sleep apnea is present in 2/3 of people with insulin resistance. Pre diabetes. Diabetes. And it is a chicken and the egg thing is driving the bus. You know, we used to think, well, you get the sleep apnea because you have insulin resistance and gain weight, but if you have disrupted sleep, your insulins are higher, your cortisols are higher, your glucose is higher. You're looking for highly processed, quick, energy dense foods and less able to resist them.
- [19:16]
Dr. Mark Hyman
Wow. So not sleeping is a risk factor for obesity.
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Cindy
Absolutely.
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Dr. Mark Hyman
And heart disease. Yes, and cancer.
- [19:22]
Cindy
And cancer. And dementia and flares of autoimmune conditions and chronic pain and fibromyalgia. So it. And anxiety and depression. I mean it really affects.
- [19:32]
Dr. Mark Hyman
Oh my God, if I don't sleep, I'm depressed and anxious.
- [19:35]
Cindy
But the more you worry about it, the harder it gets to sleep.
- [19:37]
Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah, it's true. So, okay, so we have that chronic stress. What else is, what else is driving this insomnia pandemic, which is huge. Right. I mean, 70, 90 million people are struggling with insomnia.
- [19:47]
Cindy
Right. So I do think that there's a need to address underlying contributors to anxiety and depression, independent of their impact on sleep. So talking about what's going on, bringing in some kind of breath based practice, whether that's yoga or Tai chi or meditation just to ratchet everything down, that's another important component of it. And thirdly, you've already touched on a little bit about the dopamine with the foam, but it's also the dysregulation in our circadian rhythms. We think about how there's been a lot of research about how important it is to avoid light exposure at night, for example. But everything we do during the day and when we do it is ultimately going to influence our ability to go to sleep when we want to and get the rest that we want to. So in other words, when we're eating all day long and snacking late at night and watching TV at night, that's signaling. Yes. And on our computers, that's telling our bodies and brain that it's day. It's day, it's day. So we want to actually re establish a consistent circadian rhythm, meal timing. So we're having eating earlier in the day and then building in a fasting interval before we go to bed.
- [20:56]
Dr. Mark Hyman
So don't Eat three hours before bed?
- [20:57]
Cindy
No. Interestingly enough, as you know, there's a connection as well with digestive function, that eating late at night not only disrupts your sleep, but it's contributing to higher reflux, which can also interrupt sleep. So everything's interconnected.
- [21:13]
Dr. Mark Hyman
It happened to me last night actually, because I went hiking and it's summer and it's so beautiful and it stays late and light. So we were like, didn't get down from the mountain until 8:00 at night. And I'm like, oh, let's go eat. I'm hungry. But then by the time we ate, it was like 9:00. And I, like last night I tossed and turned for a couple hours before I went to bed, which I usually don't do. I was like, oh, it was the, you know, so there's, there's eating late night, there's, there's the circadian rhythm disruption. This morning I went out and sat on my deck and the sunshine was out. So you're getting light in the morning is so important.
- [21:44]
Cindy
Absolutely.
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Dr. Mark Hyman
So we don't do that. We're all like on our phones or computers right away. We need the natural light to reset our brain because it makes a big difference. Light is medicine. Right?
- [21:51]
Cindy
It is.
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Dr. Mark Hyman
Light is medicine.
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Cindy
It is.
- [21:53]
Dr. Mark Hyman
And, and also it could be bad medicine if it's the wrong light at the wrong time. Right, Exactly. So we have all this like, like there's this great book called Lights out that I read years ago, Cindy, that was really talking about the admin of the light bulb driving chronic disease because of the disruption in our rhythms and so on.
- [22:09]
Cindy
It's interesting, they've even looked at LED street lights disrupting the circadian rhythm of animals and insects too. So it's not just humans that are being impacted by this.
- [22:17]
Dr. Mark Hyman
And there's some other weird stuff that affects sleep that we don't think about. Like what else?
- [22:22]
Cindy
Well, one of the conditions is restless leg syndrome, and that's. It's hard to diagnose. It's more of what we call a clinical diagnosis. People describe this creepy crawly sensation in their legs or this irresistible urge to rub their feet together. And typically it's treated with dopamine medications. It's connected to relatively low dopamine levels in the brain. You know, dopamine, yes, revs you up. But dopamine also seems to play a role with movement. So it's treated with some of the same medications they use to treat Parkinson's disease. But it turns out that that can be more prevalent in people who have autoimmune conditions, in which case we want to address the underlying autoimmune conditions. There are some nutrient deficiencies that are going to make this symptom of restless legs more significant. Low iron, low vitamin D, low folic acid, low magnesium. So we really want to look at somebody's nutritional status.
- [23:17]
Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah. And by the way, 80% of the population is efficient vitamin D, 50% in magnesium, you know, like.
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Cindy
Right.
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Dr. Mark Hyman
20% iron. I mean, it's like a lot of people are deficient in the B vitamins and they don't even know it.
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Cindy
Right.
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Dr. Mark Hyman
You know, and you go to your doctor, you have insomnia, they're not checking those things.
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Cindy
Exactly.
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Dr. Mark Hyman
And there's even weirder things in nutritional stuff. Right.
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Cindy
So if we identify a nutrient deficiency, for example, the next step is why? What's the why that somebody's nutrients might be low. And there we come back, like so many other things, to the function of the gut. And interestingly enough, there is a higher correlation in people who have small intestinal bacterial overgrowth. Also having restless leg syndrome, Maybe because it's contributing to ongoing inflammation, maybe because it's also contributing to difficulty absorbing those nutrients from your food. So we're even going to go a step further and say, is there an underlying issue with digestive function, absorption and assimilation of nutrients?
- [24:14]
Dr. Mark Hyman
So if your gut's a mess, it can also cause insomnia.
- [24:16]
Cindy
Absolutely.
- [24:17]
Dr. Mark Hyman
And then heavy metals are another big one that we don't really hear about.
- [24:21]
Cindy
Right. Lead, mercury, things that, that are under the radar for many, many people and unfortunately can be a problem.
- [24:28]
Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah. And I, I, I had that and we talked about on the show, but I, I've had mercury poisoning 30 years ago almost, and it really totally screwed up my sleep.
- [24:39]
Cindy
What happened with your sleep?
- [24:40]
Dr. Mark Hyman
I just couldn't sleep. Like, I just, I was just really couldn't fall asleep, couldn't stay asleep, never felt rested, had chronic fatigue syndrome. Until I got the mercury out, got my fillings out, chelation, everything, I couldn't sleep. And it really took a long time to reset that. Okay, so we've got all these different things that traditional medicine, ignoring the hormonal fluctuations, the, the gut issues, heavy metals, nutrient deficiencies. I mean, doctors know about sleep apnea, but they often miss it in thin women because that's not the archetype of someone who actually like the Pickwickian figure with, you know, huge belly and a thick throat and size 17 neck. I mean, you know, so there's all these issues and, and yet you know, this continues to be such a struggle for so many people, and the. And the traditional treatments really are just stopgap. They don't really address the cause. So in functional medicine, the way we think about things is to look at some of these other factors. So in your practice, Cindy, how do you start to dig down. What are the kinds of diagnostic things you'll look at differently? We talked about all these different factors, but how do you identify what's the problem in this or that particular person?
- [25:50]
Cindy
Well, I think it's the time to take a history and really understand all of the other interconnectedness that could be going on. For example, somebody with sleep concerns might also have digestive concerns, and then we might be thinking about assessing their digestive function, looking at a nutritional assessment. But I think there's a time and a place, and there's tremendous value in screening somebody with a portable sleep study, because that gives you a tremendous amount of information. And we're using it, yes, to diagnose sleep apnea, but also to say, how often do you wake up during the night? How much percentage of time are you spending in REM sleep and deep sleep? Are you tossing and turning all night long? So it can give us a tremendous overview in terms of somebody's sleep throughout the night. And from that, we can also decide, okay, what else do we need to explore?
- [26:41]
Dr. Mark Hyman
And then we do some testing, right? You can look at. You can look at nutritional levels. You can look at these vitamin D and magnesium and folate and. And iron studies. You can look at, obviously, the sleep apnea test. And there's home test. Now you can do really great. We look at heavy metals, right. And the hormones. You can really get a sense of what's going on with hormones for people if their estrogen and progesterone is all out of balance and just happens in menopause, you see a lot of sleep issues. Heavy metals, like I said, we can test. So there's. There's a lot of ways we can diagnose using functional medicine testing that you don't really get with traditional doctors that can help get underneath things. So tell me about this. This patient you had. Because, you know, it sort of speaks to a lot of the issues that we're talking about, and it gives you a little unusual approach to insomnia, something you wouldn't really get from a traditional doctor.
- [27:30]
Cindy
This is somebody that. And one of the things I want to plant the seed for is sometimes we start with what we think is the most likely issue, and we gradually uncover more Potential contributing issues and peel the layers of the onion. This was a woman that I had known for years. She was pretty healthy in terms of her lifestyle. She exercised, she wasn't overweight, she ate a healthy diet. She didn't drink any alcohol. She was treated with antidepressants. She was on a serotonin reuptake inhibitor and Wellbutrin for her depression. And she started. She was also on hormone replacement therapy. She was postmenopausal in her 60s. And she started complaining of fatigue and difficulty concentrating and just felt scattered. And by Sundays, she would have the need to take a three hour nap. So. Well, that's unusual. So we did some of the usual testing for causes of fatigue. We tested her thyroid. It was okay. We looked at her iron levels or sugar levels. They were okay. So I decided to do screen her with a sleep study. And it turned out you would not have looked at her and said, oh, yes, she is the poster child for sleep apnea. She turned out to have one of the most striking positional components to sleep apnea I've ever seen. When she was on her side, her sleep was normal. But when she was on her back, she had respiratory events that count as either a slowing of airflow or a stopping of airflow more than 60 times an hour.
- [28:53]
Dr. Mark Hyman
She stopped breathing 60 times in a month?
- [28:55]
Cindy
Yes, yes.
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Dr. Mark Hyman
Like once a minute.
- [28:57]
Cindy
That's a lot. No wonder she was exhausted.
- [28:59]
Emma Chamberlain
Right?
- [29:00]
Cindy
So when you see a positional component like that. I have people who don't want to do a sleep study because they don't want to. I don't. I'd never wear that stupid mask. But for her, we said, okay, well, let's start with retraining you to learn to sleep on your side. And she tried that. There's some commercially available positional devices. There are all kinds of strategies you can do.
- [29:21]
Dr. Mark Hyman
These are very, very useful. Sophisticated technology is called the tennis ball strategy, where you sew a tennis ball into a T shirt on the back. So if you roll over on your back, it makes you flip over to your side.
- [29:32]
Cindy
Or the fanny pack with the pillow stuffed in it. Yes. There's all kinds of strategies you could do. And of course, it's big business. Right. You can buy a slumber bump or a bumper belt.
- [29:41]
Dr. Mark Hyman
Oh, I didn't know they had this. I was on the tennis ball track.
- [29:44]
Cindy
Even more sophisticated, there's now a biofeedback device that's a strap around that vibrates when you roll on your back. So it's sort of autogenic nighttime training to get you. So that's what she used, interestingly enough, and it helped a little, but she was still tired. So as we're peeling the layers of the onion, she had some digestive symptoms. A lot of bloating, a lot of discomfort. And she had. We had done a full sleep study. She had restless legs and periodic limb movements. She turned out to have a very abnormal breath test for small intestinal bacterial overgrowth.
- [30:17]
Dr. Mark Hyman
That means bugs growing in your small intestine where they usually.
- [30:20]
Cindy
Where they don't belong. Right, right.
- [30:22]
Dr. Mark Hyman
Which can cause inflammation.
- [30:23]
Cindy
Absolutely. And low iron. Her iron wasn't terribly low. But one of the sidebars here. I think the other thing we do in functional and integrative medicine is understand the difference between a normal blood test, I should put, quote, normal blood test, and an optimal blood test. Ferritin is a classic example of that. Ferritin looks at your total tissue iron.
- [30:44]
Dr. Mark Hyman
And I think how much iron is in your iron bank in your body.
- [30:47]
Cindy
In your iron bank, your iron stores. Right. And normal can be anywhere from 15 to 250.
- [30:54]
Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah. So big range.
- [30:56]
Cindy
It's a big range. And what we know, the threshold is for somebody who's got restless leg symptoms is you actually don't want to be normal. You want to be over 100. Because there's some evidence, even comparing it head to head with those dopamine drugs we mentioned earlier, getting somebody's ferritin over 100 was as effective as the dopamine medications.
- [31:16]
Dr. Mark Hyman
That's amazing.
- [31:17]
Cindy
That's amazing. Right? As simple as correcting a nutrient deficiency. Not to the normal range, but the optimal range for that condition.
- [31:24]
Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah. It was interesting. You know, if. If, you know, heme iron is the. The best absorbed kind of iron, but that usually comes from meat.
- [31:29]
Cindy
Right.
- [31:29]
Dr. Mark Hyman
And people are vegan. The plant forms of iron aren't as well absorbed. Right. And you often see very significant iron deficiency in these patients, especially women who are menstruating. And I think that, you know, I learned actually in traditional medicine that ferritin was connected to sleep, actually.
- [31:45]
Cindy
Interesting.
- [31:46]
Dr. Mark Hyman
I learned that in a lecture on insomnia they went to by some drug company.
- [31:50]
Cindy
That's great.
- [31:51]
Dr. Mark Hyman
I was like, wow, that's interesting. But, yeah, I think it's something that's often overlooked. And it's an easy blood test to check your ferritin, which most doctors won't look at.
- [31:59]
Cindy
And, Mark, I think from the internal medicine standpoint, too, it's equally important to say, don't just correct the iron, figure out the why. Right. You don't Want to miss?
- [32:08]
Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah. She got colon cancer.
- [32:09]
Cindy
Absolutely.
- [32:10]
Dr. Mark Hyman
A stomach ulcer. She just menstruating heavily. Does she have a bladder cancer or just like, something? Right, right. So I think that's really important. You're right. Just don't look at the symptom, look at the cause.
- [32:19]
Cindy
Right.
- [32:19]
Dr. Mark Hyman
Because low iron is a symptom. Right. It's not a cause. Right. It caught me. The lyon may cause insomnia, but what causes low iron? So that's what functional medicine does, keeps going upstream. And you, you said something a couple of times I just want to come back to, which is peeling the onion. So one of the principles of functional medicine from our mentor, Sid Baker, who is this cool old guy, Yale professor, erudite, super smart, one of the most thoughtful men in medicine, people in medicine, period. And he said, you know, we have the tack rules that help us sort of determine how to figure things out. One is, if you're standing on a tack, it takes a lot of aspirin to make you feel better. Right. Take out the tack. So if you know the bacterial overgrowth is causing the restless leg syndrome, you can take a lot of these traditional medications, but it can take a lot of medication to make it away. Or if you fix the bacterial overgrowth, that'll help. But then also, if you're standing on two tacks, taking one of them out doesn't make you 50% better. So she had bacterial overgrowth and she had iron, and she had the positional thing. So it's like usually three or four or five things. And the problem with medicine is we are so focused on the one thing.
- [33:31]
Cindy
You know, there was one other piece related to her story that I think is also important to call out addressing all of those things. Her sleep quality was still not what she wanted to be. So we had a conversation, and she relayed the fact that when she was growing up, things were pretty unsettled in her home of origin. There were a lot of late night parties, a lot of noise, and bedtime became a time where she didn't really feel safe and quiet and comfortable. So we also talked about referring her to a life management behavioral therapist to really talk about what it meant to be safe and regaining that sense of being okay, being in bed. And I think that's. That goes hidden as well, that a previous history of trauma or not feeling safe can also show up with insomnia and difficulty sleeping.
- [34:19]
Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah, and I think that's a big thing for a lot of people. You know, there's a questionnaire you can do online called the ACE questionnaire. It's adverse childhood events and you get a score. And if you have a high score, it means you've had a crappy childhood and you probably have some level of trauma. And different people respond differently to the trauma, of course. But you know, PTSD is so prevalent and our nervous systems are so jacked up in general. So it's sort of like acute on chronic.
- [34:46]
Cindy
Absolutely.
- [34:47]
Dr. Mark Hyman
We've got our acute stresses on this chronic level of ptsd and it leads to so many physical, psychological, emotional stresses for people. The. And there's a lot of ways to sort of access that, you know, I mean there's you, you shared about how you use cognitive behavioral therapy or yoga or meditation or breath work or, you know, emotional freedom techniques. There's all kinds of techniques out there. But now people are exploring, you know, psychedelic assisted therapy, mdma, psilocybin therapy. It's legal in Oregon now. And you know, there's some interesting research going on. Johns Hopkins and your NYU and others are really looking at how do we help people with some of these chronic, long term traumatic events and experiences. And I think, you know, sort of listening to. It's just so interesting to hear that dealing with, you know, something as simple as insomnia can be quite complicated. You have to look at inflammation in the body. Where's it coming from? Is it the gut? Is it heavy metals? Is it hormonal changes? Is it nutrient deficiencies, Is it. Maybe it's food sensitivities or allergies, maybe it's low thyroid. There's things that we, you know, we just don't often think about. And so what's so satisfying with functional medicine is we're able to actually dig into these things and look and see the why. You know, we say functional medicine is the medicine of why not what, not what disease you have, which is helpful, but it's not the end of the story. We go, why do you have that disease? Like, you know, and that's the challenge with traditional medicine. It's like you make the diagnosis and you stop thinking, okay, you've got depression, here's antidepressant, you got insomnia, take the sleep pill. Oh, you've got rheumatoid arthritis, take the rheumatoid pill. Like, not why do you have insomnia or depression or arthritis or migraines, but like, why? And that's what's so powerful. So then you sort of. There's some basic sleep practices that are really good. We've covered some of this, but I think it'd be good to go over it. And I think, you know, and I think it's important to emphasize that everything matters. Sleep, exercise, stress. No, obviously your diet plays a huge role nutrient status, and that's what we do in functional medicine, so we dig down into it. So talk about some of the, the other factors around sleep hygiene that we sort of haven't touched on in terms of diet and lifestyle and food and exercise.
- [37:00]
Cindy
Sure. I think first and foremost, we have to recognize that sleep. You and I trained in an era where sleep deprivation or how little sleep you could get by on was a badge of honor. We need to shift that internal dialogue that we all have that, oh, if I'm sleeping, I'm wasting my time and I'm not getting my stuff done. So first, honor the importance of sleep for your overall health and well being and even your ability to stick to your intentions around choosing healthy foods and sticking to your exercise plan. Then create a sanctuary that's really conducive for rest and relaxation. Dark, quiet, cool. Ideally electronics out of the bedroom or turned off if you can. Getting rid of all of the light exposures, even your chargers.
- [37:44]
Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah, those lights, those red, green lights on different devices, that drives me crazy.
- [37:51]
Cindy
I had a patient who told me she traveled around with black electrical tape whenever she went to a hotel and she would put it over all the little light sources.
- [37:58]
Dr. Mark Hyman
That's a great idea. I travel with eye shades because you never know where you're going to be.
- [38:02]
Cindy
So those two quiet, calming. And I think this idea that you go, go, go, go, go, go hop in bed and turn it off like a switch, that doesn't work either. So building in a transition to rest and relaxation, if you can do an hour, that's great. And getting off the devices, not watching tv, maybe reading a book or journaling or doing something, taking a bath, stretching in the tub. I mean, there's all kinds of wonderful ways rest of your lifestyle.
- [38:29]
Dr. Mark Hyman
I like the hot Epsom salt bath and lavender drops because the lavender lowers your cortisol, the magnesium relaxes you, and the sulfur and the Epsom salt helps you detox.
- [38:38]
Cindy
That's my favorite as well. And then you go to your cool bedroom and you do your legs up the wall, yoga, restorative, yoga position, and bingo, you've got your transition to rest and relaxation.
- [38:49]
Dr. Mark Hyman
So powerful. And alcohol obviously is a good practice for people.
- [38:53]
Cindy
Yeah, that's a tough one. That's a tough one. So. So the rough analogy is this. It's funny, when they asked partners of people with insomnia, how many of them were suggesting that they have a drink to go to sleep? It was about a third of them. So people think alcohol is going to help you sleep and it might make you fall asleep, but then as it clears out of your system, there's an arousal, it can exacerbate hypoglycemia, it makes you wake up, it's going to make sleep apnea worse. If you're a woman in midlife, oh boy. It's a bladder irritant. It's a hot flash trigger. So it's really affecting sleep in a lot of ways. The rough equivalent is there's about an hour of sedation followed by an hour of arousal.
- [39:31]
Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah.
- [39:32]
Cindy
So if you had a glass of wine at 6 and you go to bed at 10, it's probably not going to impact your sleep as much as if you have two glasses at eight. Or like your late dinner last night, if you had a glass or two.
- [39:42]
Dr. Mark Hyman
Of wine, you had a beer.
- [39:44]
Cindy
Yeah. Has another impact on your sleep.
- [39:47]
Dr. Mark Hyman
I just noticed it actually. I had an aura ring for a while and I was tracking my sleep and I noticed whenever I drank my sleep pattern was so disrupted. Quality of sleep, the depth of sleep, the amount of REM sleep, deep sleep, snoring, you know, all that, it's really interesting. And then caffeine also is another big one, right?
- [40:05]
Cindy
Yeah, absolutely. And we're all, we're all different in terms of our caffeine metabolism ability. Some people are really fast metabolism, sorry, fast metabolizers. I happen to be one of those. But if you're a slow metabolizer, half of your cup of coffee from noon could still be in your system at nine o'clock at night. And most of the time we're not thinking back to that new cup of coffee. With food, it's really about quality, quantity and timing of food. It's all three. Yet another area that's impacted with the health of the gut microbiome is sleep. And data is suggesting that people who eat a wide variety of colorful fruits and vegetables tend to have better sleep quality. Whereas a highly processed standard American diet is associated with more sleep disruptions and less deep sleep. So quality matters. We already touched a little bit on the timing of eating. So eating your calories earlier in the day also helps re regulate those circadian rhythms. So the clocks in the brain and the clocks in the body that are ideally going to be working in sync with each other, they're influenced by light, by movement and by food. So when we line all Those things up during the day, it's going to help us get the rest that we need at night.
- [41:22]
Dr. Mark Hyman
So important. This is such good information.
- [41:24]
Emma Chamberlain
Stress itself is not bad for us. It can be good for us. And so just dividing things up in our mind to think about, Is this an event, is this an episode that I can recover from? Or is this a situation in my life that I'm going to live with forever and I have to get used to? So these chronic stressors, like having a child with a chronic condition, having a conflictual relationship, job stress, these are the types of addiction, loved ones with addiction, health problems. I mean, years and years and years go on where we need to be coping with it in a different way because it's not about getting rid of the situation. The acute stressors are really pointing us to just thinking about the stress response in the moment, in dealing with an episode within a day. What does that stress response look like? As you were saying, when we think about the peak stress response in the recovery and how our body does that, it's like a phenomenally beautiful biological process that we are fully equipped with to have over and over without harm. Without harm. And in fact, when we shape those stressors to our body to be short term, brief and not, you know, kind of moderate, not too extreme, they're not only not harmful, they're creating all sorts of restorative and anti aging effects in the cell. And you write about that so well in your book. And that's just we so easily forget like, oh, we could use this for good. We can actually do things like hit or sauna or cold exposure and be conditioning our nervous system, not just our cardiovascular system, but our actual emotional and physiological stress response can get conditioned.
- [43:25]
Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah, so there's a lot of doorways in is what you're saying. There's like a lot of doorways to kind of reset the nervous system, system. Right. It doesn't have to just be your mind. You can use physical states actually of hot or cold or different light or all kinds of stuff. So.
- [43:38]
Emma Chamberlain
And why not?
- [43:39]
Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah, why not? Right, right. You know, right now we're, we're in this incredibly uncertain time for many of us, financial uncertainty, political uncertainty, climate uncertainty. And, and I think it's a, it's kind of a stimulator of exaggerated stress. So can you talk about how we can learn how to adapt maybe to better or understand how to think differently about uncertainty and the whole idea of uncertainty tolerance? Because that's kind of a. Something we really don't talk about much. But I think it's an important framework for understanding how we navigate our reality and not just get buffeted about by all the stresses that are happening all the time.
- [44:17]
Emma Chamberlain
I think it's important to start where you did, which is naming. We're in a different era, we're in a different place. We have our personal dramas. We're trying to manage the inherent stress of life and being a human in this modern world. And then on top of that, we do have this layer of more existential stressors, of global stressors, climate change, war, famine, drought, you know, the climate events that are going to be coming more and more frequent. And so how does our human mind deal with all of that at once? We're not quite well equipped, but we're not that far off from being able to kind of adopt a new mindset for this new era and strategies. And uncertainty tolerance is core to how we can remind ourselves to not let this primate body overreact, create accelerated aging, make our life miserable, given that we are just surrounded by uncertainty of the future. Volatile uncertainty, meaning not just the inherent uncertainty that we don't know what's going to happen tomorrow, but just the dramatic shifts that we're going to see based on climate and politics and how we create societies as humans. So the ability to simply be comfortable with not knowing is now a core survival skill. And we're all different. We've come with different levels of what we call tolerance or comfort with uncertainty. And those of us who are on the edge of it, the really actually being intolerant and feeling really anxious about when we can't, we don't know exactly our plans tomorrow, how things will go. That is a tremendous vulnerability factor for anxiety and depression. We've always known that. We measured that during COVID We followed 500 people. And the people who were most rigid about uncertainty and tensed up and couldn't feel ease and relaxation with uncertain situations, they had much more trauma from COVID Fear of COVID climate distress.
- [46:39]
Dr. Mark Hyman
What makes someone more like uncertain than another person? Being able to tolerate uncertainty and other people not be able to tolerate uncertainty. Have you found that out?
- [46:47]
Emma Chamberlain
It's a really good question. It's. We all come with a different level. And what creates that level? Part of it is personality and, you know, openness to new experience. Part of it is really our life experience shaping us. And so when we've had a lot of early trauma, we tend to actually have more of a threat response to things that happen and to things that haven't happened. So that vigilance about Worrying about the. Ruminating about the past, but also worrying about the future, feeling that more is at stake, feeling more threatened. So there are lots of ways to overcome that. In your diagram of stress in your new book coming out in February, I love your triangle of understanding all the influences on us and our aging biology. And you had one layer of stress that people don't usually think of, which is we're born into this world wired differently because of intergenerational trauma shaping our epigenetics as well as our experience in the womb for nine months. The level of maternal stress that we've been exposed to.
- [47:58]
Dr. Mark Hyman
It's such an interesting. I actually, I haven't really talked about this on the podcast or much at all. And it was sort of recently I had a chance to really dig into some, you know, deep work on myself and somatic work and other work and kind of just. I've also been reading my mother's book about her life with my father and post war Europe. It was sort of a fictionalized account of their life. But, you know, you know, I was sort of born into very uncertain place. My, you know, my father didn't really want kids and, and my mother had multiple abortions. There was, you know, he wasn't really around when I was born. My mother was very stressed and depressed and, you know, there was a sort of state of lack of safety. And I remember that even growing up in my early childhood, sort of the dynamics of a, you know, marriage that was falling apart and being a little kid watching all that, and my mother being very sick afterwards, just not being able to eat and losing weight and being super depressed and in bed for months. And they were going to put us in foster care. So this whole drama that I kind of had just sort of like pushed back and realized that it definitely set me up to sort of have a more sympathetic activation in my nervous system for most of my life. Even though I mentally, I think I was able to sort of manage it physiologically, it registered. And I. And I think that's, you know, something I really been paying attention to. And as I began to sort of shift into more parasympathetic states, which we'll get into and talk about that, you know, it, it allowed sort of this, this resetting of my nervous system and my biology to actually heal and then be happy and enjoy life and doing the things that are really important. So these, these traumas are real. And then. And they go like, they go back generations. Like, I think, you know, my own, my own life. And I don't know why I'm talking about this now, but you just kind of made me think about it.
- [49:47]
Emma Chamberlain
It's absolutely real. Like, I just want to say we actually, I mean, Rachel Yehuda's work and others have actually shown our stress response system. You know, even three generations out from being from a Holocaust survivor, as a parent, as a grandparent, we are different.
- [50:04]
Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah. I mean, my grandparents were deaf on my mother's side, so they had that stress and her stress of being a childhood to be the parent for them. My dad on his side, his mother was, you know, one of 13 children and accidentally pushed her sister off the swing and she died at 2 years old. So she was the black sheep of the family and was chronically neurotic and stressed out and anxious. I remember my grandmother, you know, so all these things, you know, you don't think about. But. And of course, many people have far worse traumas than that and, you know, abuse and even worse. But I, I think it does register in our nervous system, unless we are conscious about how to heal that. It kind of informs our thinking, our life, our way of looking at things and, and ultimately our illnesses. You know, I, I remember going to Herbert Benson's course, like in the 90s on the mind body medicine from Harvard, and he said, you know, stress basically either is responsible for causing or exacerbating 95% of all illnesses, which is like, what, like. And it's something in medical school we don't really learn about. How do we manage it, how do we think about it, how does it work, what does it do? Right?
- [51:12]
Emma Chamberlain
And we now know the pathways and yet we still don't take it seriously. And that's why it's called the stress prescription, because we're not going to get rid of stress, but there is a way to live with it better that is absolutely medical, medically relevant. It's a prognostic factor for getting mental and physical illnesses. And all of the data, including a recent APA survey, show we are more stressed now than in previous years and decades. But even worse, I think of our youth, like 70% are, you know, reporting stress that they. Such extreme stress, they don't know how to manage it. It's interfering with their life. These are really serious red flags. We know what that means biologically. It's a leading indicator to the wear and tear on our cells, on our brain, the conditions where I was trying to avoid. So it's a serious prescription that we can, we don't have to live each day with a successive level of stress, and which really rules out those states that you've been cultivating, which is the restorative states. And it's a beautiful example you gave how you are consciously changing them. Because it's not our fault. There's no judgment. We all come out with different levels. That question about why do some people expect negative things to happen that can't stand ambiguity, that uncertainty feels intolerable. That's part of it. It's like partly from how our stress response systems are shaped from all these different influences before our life, including our life starting in the womb.
- [52:44]
Dr. Mark Hyman
And it can change. That's the beautiful thing is, like, we can rewire our nervous systems. And I think the difference between chronic stress and acute stress is nothing we mostly think about. But one of my favorite scientists is Robert Sapolsky, who wrote a book, why Zebras don't get Ulcers, which is essentially the idea that, that no zebras are out there eating their. Whatever their grass, and then the line comes and chase them and they all run like crazy, super stressed. And then line catches and zebra and then is eating it right next to all the other zebra, and they just go back to eating their grass. And so they have like a cute, acute, massive stress, and then it goes away. Um, I want, I want to talk about how you kind of frame stress in your book around our mind states and then how our mind can create physiological stress or conversely, can actually restore us to health. And, and you, you sort of mapped out these different spectrums of mind states that kind of help us think about how to understand stress, how to navigate it, how to think about discharging it. I, you know, I say the stress, you know, stress reduction or stress management is not a passive process. It's an active process. And just like you have to exercise if you want to, you know, build your muscles, you. You kind of have to practice various techniques in order to reset your nervous system from this chronic, unremitting stress, which is so pernicious and driving so many of our diseases.
- [54:11]
Emma Chamberlain
Yes. So you want to hear about these mind states here?
- [54:14]
Dr. Mark Hyman
I want to hear about this spectrum of.
- [54:16]
Emma Chamberlain
Yes.
- [54:16]
Dr. Mark Hyman
These mind states that you talk about.
- [54:18]
Emma Chamberlain
Yeah. We've been thinking about stress from a different perspective. We and others in the field, usually we think about how stressed does someone get in the moment, how quickly do they recover? And that's important. We want a quick peek and a quick recovery, and that's a healthy, resilient stress response. But it's not just the action during stress, during events, during tough times, the question really becomes what are you carrying in your body and mind when nothing is happening, when you are at rest or at least you think you are. And that's a window into the unconscious level of stress that we're carrying. So when we talk about uncertainty stress, that's where it is. That's because it's a bit vague and we can catch that mindfulness, mindful check ins help us just in this moment, like just ask, are you tensing up? Do a check in with your body, your hands, your face, your eyebrows. So often we are tensing up and we sometimes can identify why and sometimes we can just remember, oh, right now it's not only okay to relax, it's important for my body, I'm not needing to cope with something. So it's that baseline state or rest state that we're learning is really different in people and is a sign of chronic, low grade, chronic stress that we can actually get to and release through different techniques. So red mind is what, what we've been discussing about coping in the moment when you're fired up and you need the energy, you need the stress response. And we just don't want that to kind of go on and on and have sluggish recovery. But otherwise we need that. It's beautiful, it's why we're here today. That's our survival response then. And of course we're triggering it too much as you know, humans with an overdeveloped neocortex and the more chronic ambiguous threat we feel. So then there's yellow mind state, which is when we think we are relaxed. It's just how are you walking around during the day? Typical day, where are you at? What's your baseline? You probably do some monitoring, you know what your autonomic, your autonomic nervous system is set at and that is probably higher than we need to be at. And so that's what we think of as a. Our default baseline is actually carrying around a lot of both cognitive load from our thoughts, from different information screens, demands. So we're a bit activated. Then there's also the unconscious stress that we can become aware of and release. So we want to bring down that yellow mind state to a more true resting state. And that's the green mind. Yeah.
- [57:19]
Dr. Mark Hyman
How do you, how do people start to think about identifying if they're stressed? Because I think for me I kind of, you know, I didn't really think I was, but I, I think I sort of, I able to sort of map out things that looking at my oura ring, for example, could tell me my heart variability or what's happening. I was in Mexico City for a week and my heart variability went down. I went to the jungle in Costa Rica and it went way up, like by threefold.
- [57:44]
Emma Chamberlain
Yeah.
- [57:45]
Dr. Mark Hyman
So our bodies sort of register all the inputs, even if we don't think they are.
- [57:48]
Emma Chamberlain
Yeah. I've learned a lot from monitoring, and I, I think that's one way to raise awareness as well as, you know, asking ourselves to become mindful of our emotions and our bodily. Where we're holding stress in the body, where we're tense, the heart, you know, heart rate tells us a lot of things. But the heart rate variability, we think, is more specific to that balance between parasympathetic and sympathetic. So more related to psychological stress, not just metabolic demands. So it's that super interesting. So Costa Rica leads you to a different yellow mind, maybe green mind state, better baseline. I monitored with my aura ring. I monitored my heart rate variability during a meditation retreat. And we know that when people slow their breathing immediately, they can have a decrease in all the, the sympathetic activity markers and sometimes in heart rate variability during studies. It's no mystery that doing these practices and doing them for longer can lead to these improvements. Those are what we call deep rest states, when we're really allowing ourselves to feel safe and to let down and let ourselves go into restorative mode. But I was surprised at how long my heart rate variability, my baseline heart rate variability took to change. So it was only two weeks later, toward the end of the retreat, that my sleeping heart rate variability really improved. And I think that's so two weeks.
- [59:26]
Dr. Mark Hyman
Of meditation, like hours and hours every day.
- [59:29]
Emma Chamberlain
Yeah. So for me, it wasn't easy to change my baseline, particularly my sleeping baseline, but it was possible. And it was, you know, I was super excited that it finally changed.
- [59:41]
Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah, I had, I had, you know, rarely get over 40. And then I think the other night when I was in the jungle and I was in this deep, sympathetic parasympathetic state and doing a lot of sort of somatic body work. And it went to, like in the 90s, and I was like, holy crap. Like, we don't, we don't have a sort of a framework for understanding how these things are so impactful for us. So I, you know, I realized how much I need to pay attention to the practices that I need to do to actually reset my nervous system regularly. So. So in the book, you talk a lot about some of these practices, and that's what the stress prescription is. So I'd Love you. To sort of talk about how do we sort of create a lifestyle and a way of thinking about our day and a way of thinking about the beginning and the end of our day and other types of tools or techniques or doorways other than meditation obviously is powerful, but there's, there's more than that. I'm going to sort of explore that.
- [60:37]
Emma Chamberlain
Yeah, we have these red mind states that we don't want on all day, drains our batteries, stresses our mitochondria. We have data on daily mood and mitochondria showing it is really sensitive to daily affect. This was a study with Martin Picard of Columbia, and we were measuring the enzymatic activity. And so when people woke up with more positive emotion and went to bed with more positive emotion, they had higher mitochondria, which we measure kind of in the middle of the week of monitoring and when they, you know, particularly at night. So there's this idea of how are we recovering from the day? Can we maintain positive affect at the end of a stressful long day? And we certainly found the chronically stressed participants, these were caregivers, had lower mitochondria overall. But this mood effect pretty much mediated that and overrode that. That's this pointing us to. We actually know how to increase positive affect in the quite quickly with gratitude exercises and other ways of thinking and being. And so how amazing to think that our mitochondrial activity might be under our control in this short term way.
- [61:58]
Dr. Mark Hyman
Wow. So what are the ways that actually you can affect your mitochondrial activity then?
- [62:03]
Emma Chamberlain
Well, to get back to your question about the how do we live a day without chronic stress? So we might think of red mind as like having, you know, drinking coffee all day and just keeping us in that activated mode. And we want that stress response, but we just want to, you know, use it parsimoniously, not take it for granted. When we ignore it. It can just be on all day and rush, rush, rush. I mean, rushing and packing our day is probably the most common, pernicious way that we stay in yellow and red line.
- [62:31]
Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah, the Okinawan is called hurry sickness.
- [62:35]
Emma Chamberlain
Yeah, that's good. Yeah, they don't, they don't have much of that, do they? We must look so weird to them.
- [62:42]
Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah, I mean, in the blue zones where I visited, you know, they just live life. They just, it's slow and it's, it's about community and people and enjoyment and pleasure and food and hanging out. There's like, nobody's like doing startups and trying to like build a career. It's just people are just living and it's just this beautiful phenomena that we see and I think that's a big part of the longevity in these in these zones. Thanks for listening today. If you love this podcast, please share it with your friends and family. Leave a comment on your own best practices on how you upgrade your health and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and follow me on all social media channels at Dr. Mark Hyman and we'll see you next time on the Doctor's Pharmacy. I'm always getting questions about my favorite books, podcasts, gadgets, supplements, recipes and lots more. And now you can have access to all of this information by signing up for my free Marks picks newsletter@doctor.com forward/markspics I promise I'll only email you once a week on Fridays, and I'll never share your email address or send you anything else besides my recommendations. These are the things that have helped me on my health journey and I hope they'll help you too. Again, that's Dr. Hyman.com forward/markspix thank you again and we'll see you next time on the Doctor's Pharmacy. This podcast is separate from my clinical practice at the Ultra Wellness center and my work at Cleveland Clinic and Function Health, where I'm the Chief Medical Officer. This podcast represents my opinions and my guest opinions, and neither myself nor the podcast endorse the views or statements of my guests. This podcast is for educational purposes only. This podcast is not a substitute for professional care by a doctor or other qualified medical professional. This podcast is provided on the understanding that it does not constitute medical or other professional advice or services. If you're looking for your help in your journey, seek out a qualified medical practitioner. You can come see us at the Ultra Wellness center in Lenox, Massachusetts. Just go to ultrawellnesscenter.com if you're looking for a functional medicine practitioner near you, you can visit ifm.org and search find a practitioner database. It's important that you have someone in your corner who is trained trained who is a licensed healthcare practitioner and can help you make changes, especially when it comes to your health. Keeping this podcast free is part of my mission to bring practical ways of improving health to the general public. In keeping with that theme, I'd like to express gratitude to the sponsors that made today's podcast possible.