Encore: The Dark Side of The Food Industry: How The Standard Diet Is Making Us Sick & Fat

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Encore: The Dark Side of The Food Industry: How The Standard Diet Is Making Us Sick & Fat"

Podcast Information:

• Title: The Dr. Hyman Show
• Host: Dr. Mark Hyman
• Episode: Encore: The Dark Side of The Food Industry: How The Standard Diet Is Making Us Sick & Fat
• Release Date: January 13, 2025

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Introduction to Jason Karp and His Mission

In this compelling episode of The Dr. Hyman Show, Dr. Mark Hyman welcomes Jason Karp, founder and CEO of HumanCo, a pioneering company dedicated to transforming the food industry by promoting healthier, transparent, and enjoyable food products. Jason's personal health journey, marked by overcoming multiple autoimmune diseases and a degenerative eye condition through radical dietary changes, serves as the foundation for his mission to advocate for a better food system.

Key Quote:

"I created a company called HumanCo with a mission to inspire humans to demand better by showing that products can be both healthy and epic and taste good."
— Jason Karp [04:41]

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Jason's Personal Health Journey

Jason Karp shares his harrowing experience of being diagnosed with multiple autoimmune diseases and a degenerative eye disease at the age of 23. Despite dire prognoses from Western medicine, Jason embarked on a self-directed path of healing through stringent dietary modifications, eliminating processed foods, refined sugars, gluten, dairy, and grains. His commitment led to a remarkable remission of his symptoms, including the reversal of his eye disease—a feat deemed impossible by his ophthalmologist.

Notable Quote:

"I decided to try to take matters into my own hands...and found that by adopting a cleaner diet, I was able to reverse my conditions."
— Jason Karp [10:31]

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Founding HumanCo and Hu Kitchen

Inspired by his own healing, Jason founded Hu Kitchen in 2011, which emphasizes clean, simple ingredients free from artificial additives. This venture marked the beginning of HumanCo's mission to create food products that align with how humans have evolved to eat—whole, unprocessed, and as close to nature as possible. Hu Kitchen quickly grew into one of the fastest-growing snack companies in the U.S., gaining popularity for its transparent ingredient lists and commitment to health.

Key Quote:

"Our slogan, 'Get Back to Human,' represents our commitment to aligning our food with how humans have evolved to thrive."
— Jason Karp [17:01]

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The Metacrisis: Interconnected Health Issues

Jason introduces the concept of the "metacrisis," a convergence of planetary health destruction, human health deterioration, and mental health decline, all intricately linked to the modern food system. He emphasizes that these crises are not isolated but stem from the same root causes—primarily the prevalence of processed, chemically-laden foods that foster chronic inflammation and disease.

Notable Quote:

"The metacrisis is a crisis of physical health, mental health, and planetary health, all driven by the food system."
— Jason Karp [18:36]

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Campaign Against Kellogg’s: Holding Big Food Accountable

A significant portion of the discussion centers around Jason's activism against Kellogg’s, particularly targeting their use of artificial food dyes in American cereals like Froot Loops. While Kellogg’s produces a cleaner version of their cereals for international markets, the U.S. versions contain harmful additives such as Red 40, Yellow 5, Yellow 6, Blue 1, and BHT—compounds banned or restricted in many other countries.

Jason details his public letter to Kellogg’s, co-authored with prominent lawyer Alex Spiro, demanding the removal of these toxic dyes from their U.S. products. The letter has garnered widespread attention, highlighting the disparity in product formulations between countries and urging consumers to demand better.

Notable Quote:

"Why should we in America have the worst products they make? We need to stand up and do something about it."
— Jason Karp [24:29]

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Regulatory Differences: U.S. vs. International Standards

Jason and Dr. Hyman delve into the stark differences in food safety regulations between the U.S. and other regions like Europe and Canada. While artificial dyes and additives are either banned or require stringent warning labels abroad, the U.S. maintains a more permissive stance, often citing economic reasons and consumer preferences as justifications.

Key Quote:

"In Europe, they have the opposite approach with regulations that prevent harmful additives until they are proven safe."
— Jason Karp [31:34]

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Impact of Artificial Additives on Health

The conversation highlights the detrimental effects of artificial food dyes on children's behavior and overall health. Jason shares personal anecdotes about his children exhibiting hyperactive behaviors after consuming products containing Red 40, such as Skittles and Froot Loops. He underscores the scientific evidence linking these additives to behavioral disorders, referencing over 92 studies supporting these claims.

Notable Quote:

"Red 40 causes my son to act like a lunatic. Removing these dyes leads to noticeable behavioral improvements."
— Jason Karp [27:54]

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Broader Societal and Environmental Implications

Beyond individual health, Jason discusses the extensive ramifications of the current food system. He cites alarming statistics on the decline of vertebrate populations, increase in severe weather disasters, soaring rates of chronic diseases like diabetes and cancer, and declining fertility rates. These issues are interconnected, stemming from widespread consumption of ultra-processed foods that disrupt the microbiome and foster chronic inflammation.

Key Quote:

"In the last 50 years, we've seen a 69% drop in vertebrate populations and a tripling of severe weather disasters, all linked to our food system."
— Jason Karp [36:27]

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Solutions: Regulatory and Consumer Activism

Jason advocates for a dual approach to addressing the metacrisis: top-down regulatory changes and bottom-up consumer activism. He emphasizes the need for stricter food safety regulations, similar to those in Europe, and encourages consumers to "vote with their wallets" by boycotting harmful products and supporting companies that prioritize health.

Notable Quote:

"The fastest way to create change is through consumer activism—boycotting products until companies reformulate them."
— Jason Karp [55:11]

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Corporate Accountability and Stakeholder Optimization

The discussion moves to corporate practices, highlighting the conflict between shareholder profit maximization and stakeholder welfare. Jason argues for a shift towards stakeholder optimization, where companies consider the well-being of consumers, employees, and the environment alongside profits. He believes that demonstrating the profitability of responsible business practices can inspire broader industry changes.

Key Quote:

"If we show that you can have a successful business that heals people and does good, others will follow."
— Jason Karp [60:34]

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Dr. Hyman's Advocacy and Call to Action

Dr. Mark Hyman reinforces Jason's message, outlining the extensive negative impacts of the current food system on health and the environment. He highlights his own work in advocating for better food policies and expresses support for Jason's initiatives. Both speakers call upon listeners to take actionable steps—whether through signing petitions, boycotting harmful products, or supporting ethical food companies—to drive systemic change.

Key Quote:

"We're all in the Truman Show. We don't know we're being poisoned by the food we eat."
— Jason Karp [33:14]

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Conclusion: A Vision for a Healthier Future

The episode concludes on an optimistic note, with both Jason and Dr. Hyman expressing hope that through collective action and responsible corporate practices, it is possible to reverse the detrimental trends affecting human and planetary health. They emphasize the importance of prioritizing genuine well-being over short-term profits and envision a future where healthy, transparent food is accessible and enjoyed by all.

Notable Quote:

"As believed by HumanCo, scaling can be done in a way that makes things better, not worse."
— Jason Karp [64:20]

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Final Takeaways

• Personal Transformation as Advocacy: Jason Karp's personal healing journey underscores the profound impact of diet on health, inspiring his mission to reform the food industry.

• Metacrisis Awareness: Understanding the interconnected crises of physical health, mental health, and environmental sustainability is crucial for comprehensive solutions.

• Regulatory Reform: Stricter food safety regulations, akin to those in Europe, are necessary to eliminate harmful additives and promote public health.

• Consumer Power: Empowered consumers can drive change by demanding better products and supporting ethical companies.

• Corporate Responsibility: Shifting from shareholder to stakeholder models can align business practices with societal and environmental well-being.

• Collective Action for Change: Collaborative efforts between activists, policymakers, and responsible businesses are essential to address the systemic issues of the current food system.

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Listen to the full episode to gain deeper insights and join the movement for a healthier, more sustainable food system.

Transcript

[Jason Karp]

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[Dr. Mark Hyman]

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[Jason Karp]

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[Dr. Mark Hyman]

Coming up on this episode of the Doctor's Pharmacy.

[Unnamed Guest]

They make a Canadian version of Froot Loops that they undoubtedly produce in this country in the US they already make it and they already have the formulation for it here, and they ship it up to Canada. And yet the one that they sell here has red 40, yellow 5, yellow 6, blue 1, and BHT. All of those ingredients are not included in their international version of Froot loops.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

Welcome to Doctors Pharmacy. I'm Dr. Mark Hyman. That's Pharmacy with an F. A place for conversations that matter. And today's conversation is highly consequential for you because it's going to determine whether or not we live in a society that is causing us to be sick because of the food we're eating or whether we can create a food system that actually creates health. And we had this incredible conversation with Jason. Karp was a dear friend who's been an inspiration for me and is his. I don't know how to even describe him. He's a force of nature. He's driven by the belief that improving health is the pathway to increasing global prosperity. And in 2019, he started HumanCo, which is a company that has a mission to inspire humans to demand better by showing that products can be both healthy and epic and taste good. And his health journey started in his 20s after being diagnosed with multiple autoimmune diseases and a degenerative eye disease which would have left him blind by the age of 30 and doctors told him could never be cured. He had a commitment to making changes in his own diet, which changed his whole health. Cured himself through a cleaner diet and cleaner living. And then he founded this incredible company called Hue Products, which you probably eat their chocolate. Hue Chocolate, which is amazing. And Hu Kitchen in 2011, which I think I was the first customer in that. In that restaurant. Today, Hugh is one of the fastest growing snack companies in United States, emphasizing transparent, simple ingredients to help everyone get back to human. He was the founder and CEO of Tourbillon Capital Partners, a $4 billion investment fund. And he's taken all of his genius and intelligence to make better products and change the world. We're so grateful to have him on the pharmacy. Sorry. And we're so grateful to have him on the doctor's pharmacy today. And in our conversation, we cross a spectrum from his own story of how he came to understand the role of food. His own health cured multiple autoimmune diseases the doctors said were incurable and took that passion and turned it into a food business that has been highly successful and is doing good and doing well at the same time. He also talks about something called the Metacrisis, this incredible intersection of the planetary health destruction, human health destruction, and our mental health destruction, and how all that's linked in part or in large part to food and how we need to change that. We also get deep into a recent campaign that he's initiated with Kellogg to try to change the food system by holding big companies accountable. And we talk about the dyes that are in American cereals like Fruit Loops, that are not allowed in other countries like Europe. So we're only asking companies to be held accountable for to the best versions of the products they make. Why should we in America have the worst products they make? We need to stand up and do something about it. This podcast gets deep into how this happened, what we can do about it, and how to make change. So I know you're going to love this podcast. Let's dive right in. Well, Jason, it's so great to have you on the Doctors Pharmacy podcast. We've been friends for years. Have an interesting history together. And you are a kind of remarkable man because you came from a world of high powered finance.

[Unnamed Participant]

Yeah.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

You got very sick.

[Unnamed Guest]

You.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

You had to reset yourself and learn about what food does to the body and what it doesn't do if you don't eat the. If you don't eat the right stuff.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

And you created a company called Q, which was an incredible company that everybody probably knows from the chocolate. There was a Q kitchen back in New York City that was in actually an old Himalayan east west bookstore. Go in the 80s and do yoga on the top of where that was.

[Unnamed Guest]

Wow.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

And so it was like the only yoga class in New York. And they, you know, we didn't have Lululemon or yoga mats. We had like towels and sweatpants, you know, and that was a very kind of symbolic thing for me to go back in there and see how you created this incredible model for eating that really represented your insights into what was wrong with our food system.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

How you got sick from it.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

And how you were able to fix yourself through that journey. And we're going to dive deep today into really some interesting topics that are around a new initiative that you're creating to kind of wake up America to the, in a sense, the evils that the food industry is perpetrating on American kids and on American adults by putting all sorts of toxins in the food that are not allowed in other countries. And you took a brave, brave step recently that was calling these companies out. You published an article in the New York Post, a letter that went to Kellogg's as your shareholder, calling them out for their behavior and their failure to meet their own commitment to get rid of chemicals and dyes in the. That we know are damaging to humans in their products.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yep.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

And. And it's kind of created a bit of a buzz. It was a big article in New York Post, and it's kind of everywhere it's been on Twitter or X or whatever call it now. Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

And I want to have. Have. Give you a chance to sort of, sort of talk about your own journey and how. How you got started on this and how passionate you are and how you really created a whole new effort to. To really rethink our food system and to reformulate our food products so we can actually eat stuff that tastes good and is also good for us.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yes, yes, yes. Well, I. Look, thanks for having me, Mark.

[Unnamed Participant]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

And, you know, as a little background, you know, you were one of my early inspirations, which I'll get to in my, in my Life story. It's. It's kind of a crazy story. And the. The whole East West Books thing and the spirituality of that store is.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

So it was Swami Rama, the guy who could put, like, needles through his arms.

[Unnamed Guest]

It's. We'll come back to how crazy that is.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

But by the way, I didn't. I just want to interrupt you. One of the disciples of this guy, Swami Rama, from the. The east west and the Himalayan Institute was this guy named Rudolph Ballantyne who wrote a book called Diet and Health, or Diet Nutrition was. It was in the. In the 70s, and I got that book when I was in college, and I read it, and it was all about bringing nutrition into healing chronic disease.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

So I don't know if you knew.

[Unnamed Guest]

That, but I didn't know that.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

So literally, the book that was. Was a disciple of the guy who actually created that Himalayan Institute where Hugh Kitchen first started.

[Unnamed Guest]

That's crazy.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

Really wrote a book that kind of launched me on this journey, too. I mean, this karmic shared.

[Unnamed Guest]

It really is karmic. I mean, I have the chills because I totally forgot about the East West Bookstore and the spiritual connection and Fifth Avenue, 14th Street. Yeah, we'll come back to that. My background and my kind of personal story, I think is a. Is a cautionary tale, and it's also a metaphor for what's happened to modern society. You know, I had a pretty meteoric ascent starting in college, where I was sort of your classic overachiever. I went to Wharton undergrad, business school. I was one of the top students. I was a Division 1 academic, all American athlete. And I did everything that I thought you're supposed to do as sort of a overachieving American. And all I wanted to do was be very accomplished. And when I got out of college, I had this really coveted job. I went straight to a hedge fund in 1998, which was sort of a fledgling industry. I got so focused on just winning and accomplishing and did extremely well in my first couple years there, financially speaking. And, you know, I got every accolade and every achievement you could get. I was made the youngest partner in history of my firm. And so on the surface, everything looked like life was going great.

[Unnamed Participant]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

And a couple years into my working, I started getting sick. And at the time, I kind of ignored it. And I was so focused on achievement, achievement, achievement. More, more, more, more. In terms of. I taught myself how to speed read, I taught myself how to micro nap. I started really. I was reading.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

You got to teach me that.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah, I was I was. I was reading obscure stuff from the military on how to be even more productive. Like, this was really early biohacking stuff. But while I was doing it, I started viewing the things that I think make humans thrive. I started viewing those things as unnecessary. So I started giving up friends and connection, and I started giving up exercise, and I started optimizing my day in terms of our blocks. And I was getting more and more done, and I was reading more and I was doing more of my job, and everyone around me thought I was like this superhuman. And meanwhile, quietly, I was getting more and more sick. And eventually I started to really notice it. My hair started falling out in clumps. I had psoriasis all over my arms and my body. I was having massive amounts of brain fog. And then I was still ignoring it. And then my vision started to go, and I started seeing double. And I went to multiple ophthalmologists and eventually was diagnosed with a degenerative eye disease for which there's no cure. And it was so progressed by the time I went in. I was 23 at the time. They said I would be fully blind by the age of 30.

[Unnamed Participant]

Wow.

[Unnamed Guest]

And there was no hope or cure other than potentially a corneal transplant, which was pretty risky at the time. I fell into a deep, dark depression. I was very ashamed of my health because on the surface, I look like this pinnacle of success.

[Unnamed Participant]

Right.

[Unnamed Guest]

And on the inside, I was falling apart.

[Unnamed Participant]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

And I decided to try to take matters in my own hands, because the Western medicine doctor said, here's a pill for this, Here's a pill for this. Here's a pill for this. Oh, and by the way, your eye disease, there's no cure for it, and you're just going to blind and deal with it.

[Unnamed Participant]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

I decided, and it was kind of this almost divine inspiration to start looking in alternative channels for maybe there's other ways I could heal myself. And I started doing a lot of research on indigenous people on ancestral diets. And I stumbled upon a couple, like, OG Functional medicine people and some of the really early books like yours.

[Unnamed Participant]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

And Dr. Andrew Weil.

[Unnamed Participant]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

And those were kind of some of the people that I found. And I had this sort of naive hypothesis, which was based on some stuff that I found that connected atopic skin diseases like psoriasis to my eye disease.

[Unnamed Participant]

Yeah.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

Well, it's autoimmune. Autoimmune.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah. And of course, every doctor I saw said, oh, this disease is unrelated to this disease. Is unrelated to this disease.

[Unnamed Participant]

Yeah.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

No, no, it's all and back.

[Unnamed Guest]

But back in, you know, this is in the year 2001, they didn't really talk about food as medicine. They certainly didn't talk about functional medicine. And so I decided to go on this path of seeing if I could reverse my skin disease, which was clearly inflammation, through diet and lifestyle. And I told my ophthalmologist, I said, hey, you know, maybe if I can make my skin disease go away, maybe my eye disease will go away.

[Unnamed Participant]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

And of course, as sort of an arrogant Park Avenue ophthalmologist said, that'll never work. There's no cure. You know, do whatever you want. You know, I decided, don't confuse me with the facts. My mind, don't confuse me with the facts. So I went on an extremely restricted diet as a 23 year old single guy in New York City. I gave up alcohol, I gave up caffeine, which ironically, were the two hardest things for me to give up as, as, as someone back then when it was sort of work hard, play hard.

[Unnamed Participant]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

I just tried to experiment. I gave up processed food, I gave up refined sugar, I gave up gluten, I gave up dairy. But most, most importantly grains. Most importantly, I gave up like the hyper processed garbage. And I was eating terribly at the time and I wasn't exercising and I wasn't socializing and I wasn't sleeping well and I was very isolated.

[Unnamed Participant]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

And I noticed after a few weeks of this, my psoriasis started going away.

[Unnamed Participant]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

And my hair stopped falling out.

[Unnamed Participant]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

I noticed anecdotally my vision was getting better and I went in for a checkup with my doctor, you know, maybe six weeks in, and I told him about this and he again said, that's impossible. It's not working. Don't, you know, don't even try. But I was like, look, I feel better. I'm going to keep going.

[Unnamed Participant]

Yeah.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

And thankfully, it's a spontaneous remission. It has nothing to do with your diet.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah. And then I did this for months and everything went away. And I noticed I could see clearly again. And thankfully there was an objective test for my eye disease that didn't require subjectivity where they actually measure the surface area of your cornea and they could see if you have the disease or not, objectively speaking. And I went in and I said, I can see clearly. And he said, well, we'll give you the test. And he gave me the test and my disease was gone. Unbelievable.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

Well, not really very believable.

[Unnamed Guest]

Well, the look on his face was shock. And he actually called his Colleague IN. I'll never forget this day. It's one of the most important days of my life.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

Wow.

[Unnamed Guest]

Called in his colleague, and they're whispering, but I could hear them whispering.

[Unnamed Participant]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

And he said, you got to look at this. He goes, I must have misdiagnosed him. This is impossible.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

I. It must have been a mistake. I didn't actually hear.

[Unnamed Guest]

He came over to me and he goes, I must have misdiagnosed you. There's no cure for this disease. This is the first time we've ever seen this disease reversed.

[Unnamed Participant]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

And I remember walking out of the doctor's office and I remember thinking, my life is going to be forever changed.

[Unnamed Participant]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

And I'm no longer going to respect. Respect the Western medicine dogma. And I'm going to go with my gut and my heart when things feel wrong. And I kind of knew instinctively that my four or five diseases that I was diagnosed with were all related. And doctors didn't think that. And from that moment on, I decided that I was going to spend a significant portion of my time and resources and philanthropy to waking up the American public because I viewed myself as a canary in the coal mine.

[Unnamed Participant]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

Of what was happening to me is probably happening to other people. And obviously since then, it's gotten way worse.

[Unnamed Participant]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

You know, in the last. In the last 22 years.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

So true. I mean, I remember being doing this since the 80s, 90s, and it was bad then, and now it's, like, unbelievably worse.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah. And, you know, what happened was, is, like a lot of my research and a lot of what I believe cured me was respecting human evolution.

[Unnamed Participant]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

And respecting kind of the way that people in the blue zones live and respecting the way that indigenous people live. Because I remember reading studies back then.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

They're not eating Fruit Loops.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah. They're not eating Fruit Loops. But I remember seeing the studies how when. When people would go to these various indigenous communities, they had no chronic disease, they had no obesity, they had no heart disease, they had no allergies, they had no autism, they had no adhd. And I remember because back then there was still. And still now, there was still this perception of, oh, it has to be just fruits and vegetables or it has to be just this. And what was so intriguing to me was these different indigenous peoples all over the world. Some were in Arctic areas and they were eating whale blubber and pure meat. Some were like the Maasai, where they're drinking cow blood. Some were tribes that were eating fruits and vegetables and nuts. And the only Common theme across all of these indigenous peoples was that they were eating unprocessed whole things that were as close to the earth as possible. Not too complicated, not too complicated. And that led many, many years later where I was living a much more kind of clean lifestyle where my brother in law, Jordan Brown, my wife's brother, he started reading some of the same books that I was reading. He was not sick, thankfully, like I was. But one of the first books he read was the Ultramind Solution. One of your early books. Yeah. And he started trying these kind of methods and he noticed how much better he looked and how much better he felt and how much better he operated and how much better he slept. And he came to me one day and at this point I was, you know, higher up in my, in my field, but I was still in the hedge fund business.

[Unnamed Participant]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

And he said, there's no place that we can eat.

[Unnamed Participant]

Right.

[Unnamed Guest]

That has these kind of guardrails.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

Right.

[Unnamed Guest]

That you have, have done and that. And that I'm now doing.

[Unnamed Participant]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

And wouldn't it be great if there was this oasis, this place in New York City.

[Unnamed Participant]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

Where people could come in and everything in here was the manifestation of these principles.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

True. It's like true. And most time when you go to a restaurant or you go shopping or somewhere to eat, you have to navigate what not to eat and try to find a few things that you can eat. And I remember going to Hugh kitchen back when it started and going, man, I can eat everything in here.

[Unnamed Guest]

Right.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

And it's good.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

And it tastes good.

[Unnamed Guest]

You know, it started off as a preposterous idea because I was a professional investor. Restaurants typically are not good investments. Most people fail at them. They have one of the highest failure rates.

[Unnamed Participant]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

And I said to Jordan, I said, jordan, we don't know anything about restaurants.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

Remember, I remember going there before you open and it was just like it was massive operation.

[Unnamed Guest]

It was massive. It was massive. And anyway, long story short, I said to him, I said, look, we can do this. We'll do it as initially kind of a passion project. He said he was going to quit his job in real estate. My wife was going to help. I was going to stay in the finance business to finance this whole thing.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

Because he beans and rice, you could pay for it.

[Unnamed Guest]

Right. For the first, for the first few years, you know, for the first many years we didn't have outside investors. And so it was just a family operation. And you know, we hired consultants that showed us how to do kind of typical restaurant stuff. But what we knew was what to include and we knew what not to include. And we came up with the name Hu because our slogan, based on all of the research that I had done that cured me, was get back to human. Because I believe that part of the reason, or most of the reason we're all so sick is that we don't live in a way that is consistent with how we evolved and how we thrived. And I believe today we are in a true slow motion apocalypse. And I'll get to some stats in a second.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

I'm with you.

[Unnamed Guest]

And we are in what I call a meta crisis, a crisis of physical health, mental health and planetary health. And it's the worst it's ever been in human history.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

It almost feels though, like it's sort of invisible. It's not necessarily in the news. People aren't really talking about it at scale. It's just sort of this slow motion disaster that's coming at us and we're almost oblivious. You know, when, when you look at the scale of the illness in America, when you look at globally how it's reaching every corner of the world, I mean, I, you mentioned the Maasai and yeah, they were healthy and fit and they had perfect teeth and they were thin and this tall, skinny Maasai. And I went to visit them last October and it was, it was kind of shocked actually. They, they had horrible teeth and they had, you know, all misshapen mouths. They were overweight, they had all these chronic illnesses. They. Every day the Coca Cola truck would come in, they'd empty it out, literally a giant truck. And they would line up and empty out all the, the Fanta and Coke in one, in one hour. And they were eating all kinds of snack foods from the town that they were able to get. They still didn't have electricity, running water, right. Sanitation, and, and they were getting all these processed foods and, and the chief said to me, you know, I said, you know, that, that, that, that this cold is probably not good for you guys because of diabetes. And he said, really? He said. I said, yeah. He said, well, so many of our people are dying from diabetes, we have no idea why. And I said it's because of wintry. It's shocking. So I think, you know, you really are onto something. Get back to human is a beautiful concept and the metacrisis is something that we really need to take head on and face and actually bring it into the, in the public conversation. And so let's talk about, let's get into the weeds a little bit because I think at a metal level, we understand we have to address this global crisis that's driven by the food we create and make and eat. And yet in America, we are probably the worst in the world at this. We allow food marketing to kids. I think the only other country that does that is Syria. We. Pharmaceutical advertising. I think the country does that is New Zealand.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yep.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

We allow all these chemicals and food that are bad in most countries. And you recently were outraged when you found out that Kellogg's is making tons of cereal, which is extremely harmful to people in general because the amount of sugar itself and the refined carbohydrates. So. And the processing.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yep.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

But. But, you know, that aside, there are known compounds like BHT or butylate, hydroxytoluene, red dye number 40, yellow tie number 5. And these are things that are known to cause human health hazards and are yet banned in other countries and are allowed in this country. And you found out that. That they're making the same products.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

In Canada or Europe without these compounds.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yes. What prompted the letter originally was when Kellogg came out and recommended cereal for dinner. And I don't know.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

What a great idea.

[Unnamed Participant]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

I don't know if you saw this, but basically I did.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

The CEO. That guy is so tone deaf.

[Unnamed Participant]

Yes.

[Unnamed Guest]

So tone deaf. Cereal in this country is in secular decline. And Kellogg was originally a conglomerate, and they split about a year and a half ago into two companies. One's called Kelanova, which is mostly international and snacks. And then they isolated the U.S. north American cereal business. Just cereal. And it's just North America. And that business still does $2.7 billion a year, which is millions and millions and millions of customers. And, you know, definitely over, you know, hundreds of millions of boxes of cereal.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

Definitely. Hopefully not any of my patients listening are eating cereal for breakfast.

[Unnamed Guest]

Correct.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

It's one of the worst things you.

[Unnamed Guest]

Could do cereal, period.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

So breakfast or dinner or lunch, it's probably one of the worst foods you can eat because it's. It's basically pure sugar.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yes. And. And they made a television commercial, which I would urge you guys to Google and watch it because it's. It looks like a Saturday Night Live sketch. And Tony the Tiger comes into a family.

[Unnamed Participant]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

Who are about to sit down for dinner, and there's two kids, and he comes and he starts going, cereal for dinner. Cereal for dinner. And it says, like, let's give chicken the night off.

[Unnamed Participant]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

And this was an actual television commercial.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

Not a parody.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah, not a parody. And it. It got. Thankfully, it got. He got skewered in the. In social media. And this was sort of, you know, all over the Internet. And people started talking about boycotting. And he made it about food cost. He basically said, inflation has gone up a lot, so if you are cost conscious, you should eat cereal for dinner. What he didn't say is that the big food companies have taken anywhere between 40 and 70% price increases.

[Unnamed Participant]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

Over the last three years.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

Oh, it's inflation. We get.

[Unnamed Guest]

They. They have done the most inflation of almost anybody. And so when I saw that, I thought, this is enough. Like, this is enough. I need to take a stand as a father and as a concerned citizen, and I need to let people know that this is really happening about the food dies Marie Antoinette moment.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

Let them eat cake. Let them eat cornflakes.

[Unnamed Guest]

And. And of course, like, I would never advocate eating cereal. And some of the comments that we got back were, well, people shouldn't eat cereal, period.

[Unnamed Participant]

Right.

[Unnamed Guest]

And. And part of my activism and part of what we're doing with Human Company, my business is to recognize that we're at a certain moment in time and we have to meet people where they're at. And so instead of coming out and saying nobody should eat cereal, which of course they shouldn't.

[Unnamed Participant]

No.

[Unnamed Guest]

I'm acknowledging that there's $2.7 billion of Kellogg cereal sold in this country right now. That's a big number. So acknowledging that, I said, well, let's go after the easiest, most ridiculous part of what they do wrong, which is they make a superior, safer version of the same exact cereal. So let's just take Fruit Loops as an example. They make a Canadian version of Froot Loops that they undoubtedly produce in this country in the US they already make it, and they already have the formulation for it here, and they ship it up to Canada. And yet the one that they sell here has red 40, yellow 5, yellow 6, blue 1, and BHT. All of those ingredients are not included in their international version of Froot Loops.

[Jason Karp]

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[Dr. Mark Hyman]

Might leave you feeling groggy the next day.

[Jason Karp]

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[Unnamed Guest]

When people say, like, okay, so they know how to make the better version. They're already making it. They're already selling the better version. Right. Why do they sell Americans the shittier, less safe version here? There's two reasons. The first reason, which is, which is obvious, is it's a little more expensive to use natural food colorings than it is to use artificial food dyes that are derived from blueberry juice.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

Watermelon juice. Yeah. You know.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah. They actually use fruit coloring.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

They actually put a little Stevie in it to lower the sugar content. Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

And so maybe it's, you know, maybe it's a few pennies per box is what they would have to spend. The second reason, which, which there was like a fiasco that happened with Trix cereal where they've acknowledged that natural food colorings are less bright.

[Unnamed Participant]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

And when they're less bright, they're less attractive to children. And it doesn't affect the taste, by the way. The colorings have nothing to do with the taste. So they, they have come out and, and they have tried to say when they've been kind of publicly shamed for this, is that Americans want the brighter cereal. That's what they say. And that's.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

They're giving our customers what they want. That's what the food industry says. And it makes me nuts. Like, well, if people were selling cocaine on the Corner street in McDonald's for $2, everybody be buying. We're just giving our customers what they want.

[Unnamed Guest]

Right. And here's the worst part, Mark. The worst part is in 2015, they came out. There was, there was. There have been these moments where people start really caring about the artificial food dyes because as you noted, with some ingredients like BHT and others, they're literally banned in many countries. In some of the food dies cases, they're not fully banned, but they require a warning label similar to the warning label you would have on cigarettes.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Unnamed Guest]

And the warning label says ingredients in this food product may impair your children's learning ability.

[Unnamed Participant]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

And will. And may cause behavioral disorders in your children.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

Right.

[Unnamed Guest]

And so.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

Yeah, they're not making that shit up.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

Like there's actually data on this.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah, there's a lot. There's a lot of data.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

Go to the National Library of Medicine, PubMed. You can search for the scientific articles that validate this point.

[Unnamed Guest]

This is not just crazy, this is not crazy, sensationalist, like. Like, we want to regulate everything. And then personally, both of my children are very affected by Red40 in particular, where my son will come from a birthday party, and he'll be acting like a lunatic. He'll be jumping off the walls. He won't be able to sit still. And we'll. My. My wife and I will literally say to him, tyson, what did you eat? And he'll say, oh, I had some Skittles or, oh, I ate some Charms Blow Pops or, oh, I had some Froot Loops or whatever it is. And when we remove the food diets from their diets, it is a noticeable behavioral change. And there are countless parents that I have met that notice the same thing. And so the biggest issue that I had with Kellogg was.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

Yeah, there's over 90, 10. I was thinking there's over 92 papers documenting the role of food colorings on autism, on behavior, on add.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

On mood, on. I mean, you know, it's. Behavior disorders across the spectrum is quite fascinating. So.

[Unnamed Guest]

But they made this pledge, Mark. They made a pledge that said in 2015, we will remove all artificial food dyes from our foods by 2018. And quietly. And this is where. Where Vani comes in quietly.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

Bonnie Hari, who's the friend of ours who's basically been a crusader for waking.

[Unnamed Guest]

Up America, she's been an amazing crusade.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

All of these compounds in our food.

[Unnamed Participant]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

And when they came out with this pledge, it was national news, and it was in every newspaper, and there were headlines. Kellogg's vows to remove. And they got. It was media claim. They got credit for it, and people loved it.

[Unnamed Participant]

Right.

[Unnamed Guest]

And then they quiet. And they put on their website.

[Unnamed Participant]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

And then quietly, they removed it from their website and they didn't tell anybody. And they keep making new cereals. And the one that Vonnie really went crazy about, they came out with a baby shark cereal targeted at toddlers that had new. It was a new product with all the food dyes. So they quietly removed from their website. They ignored the pledge that they publicly made that they got credit for. And they're just hoping that we don't notice because it's more money for them.

[Unnamed Participant]

Yeah.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

And by the way, I'm not sure you know this, Jason, but 14% of kids are on ADD medication.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

So, yeah, like.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah, it's really. It's.

[Unnamed Participant]

And.

[Unnamed Guest]

And both of my children have adhd, by the way, and I do, too. And we don't need to exacerbate because we already know how to do it without it. And So I wrote a public legal activist letter with a very prominent lawyer named Alex Spiro, who's Elon Musk's lawyer, is also concerned about American society and his own children.

[Unnamed Participant]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

And when I was telling him this, we were talking about it a month ago or so, he was outraged and he said, you should do something about this. And Vonnie had made attempts with petitions to get this removed.

[Unnamed Participant]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

Keller kind of engaged with her. They wrote her a letter. Nothing happened.

[Unnamed Participant]

Right.

[Unnamed Guest]

And I'm at this point where I said, you know what, we need more firepower at this. We need more American citizens to get behind this and we need this to be loud and public because most people don't know this. And so we filed the letter and simultaneously we released it on social media. We put it on all the platforms, Instagram, LinkedIn and X. And I would encourage you guys, my handle is humankarp Karp and I shared.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

It on my social media.

[Unnamed Guest]

I would encourage you to look at the post because we're going to put.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

It, we're going to put, by the way, we're going to put the letter in the show notes, we're going to put the article in New York Post in the show notes. We're going to, we're going to let you actually see what's going on and look into it a little more.

[Unnamed Guest]

And the comments have been extraordinary. So many people didn't know that they were selling a superior version up in Canada or in the UK or in the eu. So many people were concerned that why don't Americans, why don't we get the best version of a product that they already make?

[Unnamed Participant]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

Like what? Like this is crazy.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

And by the way, we are sicker because of it. I mean, I always say this fact because it's so stunning and shocking. But we're 4% of the world's population, but we were 16% of the cases and deaths from COVID Yeah. Not because we didn't have good health care or vaccine access, but because we were all pre inflamed because of the food we're eating.

[Unnamed Guest]

That's right. That's right. But this is just the tip of the iceberg of the kind of insanity that's happening in this country because America allows it.

[Unnamed Participant]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

And then the question is, why do we allow it? The first reason is, and I know you've talked about this in the past, is the difference in kind of burden of proof that we use in this country. You know, we use the term called grass to generally recognize the safe, which for some of Your listeners is basically like in this country when they introduce a new compound or a new food, it's innocent until proven guilty.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

That's right.

[Unnamed Guest]

So let's just unleash olestra on the American public or trans fats, and then we'll figure out in 10 years if there's a problem or 100. Right, right, right. And this is why things like asbestos happened and things like thalidomide happened and you could go on and on.

[Unnamed Participant]

Yeah, yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

There's a lot of examples. Glyphosate. There's lots of examples where we thought like, oh, what could go wrong? Just like the Great Sparrow campaign. Whereas in places like Europe, they have the opposite approach with things that you put inside human bodies, which is guilty until proven innocence.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

They have all legislation around this called the REACH legislation in Europe, which prevents them from putting all this crap in the food. Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

And they want to have very long term data before they bring it into the food. And so we have much looser regulations here. And when you talk to politicians or people at the FDA about it, the explanation they give is it encourages faster innovation.

[Unnamed Participant]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

So they make it about business.

[Unnamed Participant]

Yeah.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

Less regulation, more innovation.

[Unnamed Guest]

Which factually is true. Right. Like you can create more things faster if you don't have regulation, but not when you're poisoning people. And this is what I talked to Callie Means about. Poisoning people is not a left or a right issue. No, it's not. I'm against, like stupid, frivolous regulation myself. I moved to Texas because of it from New York because I think Texas is more business friendly and more rational. But when it comes to poisoning our own people, this is idiotic. Like, this should not be an issue about politics.

[Unnamed Participant]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

This should be about if something is known to be harmful to humans and we have an alternative that works, don't let it happen. Wake the fuck up. And because this, we are kind of like the frog in the boiling pot. When I talk about it, you know, at cocktail parties or whatever, people are like, oh, Jason, you're being sensationalist. And I wanted to, I gave.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

We're all in the Truman Show. We don't know.

[Unnamed Guest]

Right, right, right. And I, you know, I gave a story was, I think, also kind of a cautionary tale of what I think we've been doing wrong and how we got here. And the story was it was about mao Zedong in 1958, and he was trying to make China a powerhouse at the time. And it was a very farming heavy country. And he wanted to industrialize and kind of make farming Less private and more kind of state owned.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

Great leap forward.

[Unnamed Guest]

The great leap forward. Right. And one of the things that he observed, the green seeds, the seeds were being eaten by sparrows. And so he thought, let's kill all the sparrows. So he created a campaign called the Smash Sparrow Campaign where he told everybody, kill as many sparrows as you possibly can. And this is 1958 and you know, typically when you hear these things you always ask like, oh, what could go wrong?

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

And was it. He wasn't clearly an ecologist.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yes, yes. And he didn't understand complex adaptive systems or the wonder of mother Nature. And so over two years, this only happened two years. This is crazy.

[Unnamed Participant]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

In over two years they killed hundreds of millions of sparrows. But what they did not take into account is that sparrows also eat insects, particularly locusts. And they had the greatest locust problem in human history, which created the largest man made famine ever recorded. Somewhere between 45 and 75 million people died of famine.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

That's unbelievable.

[Unnamed Guest]

It got so bad, I met more.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

Than people that died in World War II.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah. It's one of the greatest human tragedies of all time. In fact, it was so bad that there were books written about it that were banned in China because he didn't want people knowing about it because it was so embarrassing. But it got so bad that people became cannibals and there were accounts of people eating their own children. There were accounts of people eating other people because the famine was so bad. Myopia of him thinking like, oh, we could tweak one variable and it seems like it's based on science and just hope that everything turns out okay. And it didn't. And I feel like today, you know, I just want to, you know, remind people of, of how bad the metacrisis is because I think some people.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

Can you define that? Because I think most people don't know what metacrisis means.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah. So meta, you know, met is just sort of a word that describes, you know, a bunch of, of high level things. But the metacrisis to me is that we have four or five epidemics slash crises, all happening at the exact same time. And it's very similar to what happened with my diseases where I had five diseases manifest. They were seemingly disconnected to most people, but they were all connected.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

This is so core functional medicine. It's like, look at the roots. Everything is connected at the roots.

[Jason Karp]

There are a few common causes.

[Unnamed Guest]

This is functional medicine for the planet. Yeah, basically.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

Exactly. There are a few common causes for all the things that are happening.

[Unnamed Participant]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

And I believe, and just to give your, your viewers some stats, because it's not just human health. So I wrote down some stats. So. And this is all in the last 50 years. And the one thing that I'll say that's also really remarkable is that when I did my research, Homo sapiens have been around as far as 200,000, you know, at least 200, 250,000 years. And all of these things that I'm about to tell you that you talk about, they've all happened in just the last 50 years.

[Unnamed Participant]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

And 50 years as a percentage of 200,000 means that we went 99.99%.

[Unnamed Participant]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

Of humanity with no problems. None of these problems.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

We had other problems.

[Unnamed Guest]

We had different problems. We had killing each other. Yeah. Yeah. But like these kind of problems killing.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

All the big animals are all in.

[Unnamed Guest]

The last 50 years, which on an evolutionary timescale is, is like a blink.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

Sick.

[Unnamed Guest]

It's a sick. And.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

But it's a blink that could wipe us out.

[Unnamed Guest]

It could. I actually think we're extincting ourselves. And so here's just some stats in the last 50 years. So populations of vertebrates, of all animals that have bones have seen a 69% drop in total population for 50 years. The number of severe weather related disasters have tripled in. Actually this is even shorter than that since 1980, causing two and a half trillion dollars of economic damage. And that number is just the last 20 years.

[Unnamed Participant]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

25% of young adults, 50% of Americans are pre diabetic or full fledged type 2 diabetes. As you know, this used to be called type 2, used to be called adult onset diabetes because it was only adults that used to get it.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

Now children, kids get it as young as two.

[Unnamed Participant]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

Eight of the ten leading causes of death are related to lifestyle diseases. The cancer rates are at all time highs today. All time highs today. This is gonna be the first year that there's over 2 million cases of cancer. And the New York Times and the.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

Younger people are getting it too.

[Unnamed Guest]

And that. And so the younger people, the under 35 has gone exponential.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

I mean, so Kate Middleton, just diagnosed.

[Unnamed Guest]

With cancer and there's all these articles where they talk about it being mysterious and why. And it's mostly gastrointestinal, so it's mostly colorectal.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

And the microbiome plays such a huge role in preventing that.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yep.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

The way we eat in our ultra processed food, which is the way to fiber, destroys our microbiome.

[Unnamed Participant]

So.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah. And I know and Also, the additives.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

Destroy microbiome, causing inflammation, which also causes cancer. So the science is there about how the mechanistic systems work to drive the cancer rates and all these diseases. It's not a mystery anymore. We know how this works, and yet we're still doing.

[Unnamed Guest]

And then the part that really terrifies me, which. Which, you know, Cali Means has been talking about, has become a dear friend, is on the fertility stuff.

[Unnamed Participant]

Oh, yeah, right.

[Unnamed Guest]

Sperm counts are down 50%.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

Yeah, I just did a podcast on that.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah, the whole fertility thing is terrifying.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

I mean, dropping fertility rates, dropping sperm counts, difference in sex, birth rates for between men and women. Because of that, animals are seeing, you know, hermaphrodites and, you know, really strange things going on because of the industrial.

[Unnamed Guest]

Chemicals and really strange. And then the final part, which I don't want to gloss over, suicide rates are at all time highs. And obviously we know about the mental health epidemic, but what I think a lot of people don't know, and this has been scientifically shown, loneliness is the greatest predictor of early death. In fact, there was a study that came out, out of Yale, like, smoking.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

Two packs of cigarettes a day.

[Unnamed Guest]

Fifteen cigarettes a day.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

Oh, 15. Yeah. That was two packs.

[Unnamed Participant]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah. But that's still crazy. I mean, 15 cigarettes a day is the comparable mortality risk of being lonely. And this is the first time in recorded human history where lifespans are falling.

[Unnamed Participant]

Yeah.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

Children are going to live sicker, shorter lives than their parents, for sure.

[Unnamed Guest]

And. And yet. And this is the part that's crazy, and this is why I say we have to wake up. And yet, we are the most f up. You mean we are.

[Unnamed Participant]

Yes.

[Unnamed Guest]

Wake the f up. We are. We are the most technologically advanced we've ever been in human history. Right. We technically know more. And I put in quotes, no, we know more than we ever have. More information, but not necessarily exercise. More than we ever have. And we spend more now on healthcare per person than we do on food. And so the amount we're spending and the amount of, quote, technological progress we're doing is going up and up and up. And the objective metrics of all these things are getting worse. They're not only not staying the same, they're getting worse. And if you said to anybody, the more you spend on something, the worse it gets, they would say, stop it. Like, what are you doing?

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

Exactly.

[Unnamed Guest]

And you know, Einstein has this famous quote. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.

[Unnamed Participant]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

And here we are, as supposedly the Greatest scientific civilization in history. And we're the sickest we've ever been.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

We have Paleolithic brains and godlike technology.

[Unnamed Guest]

That's right.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

And so we're kind of still trapped in these, you know, almost Neanderthal, you know, kind of behaviors and thoughts and actions which, which kind of don't comport with a level of technology we have. And so we're, we're really heading for this slow motion disaster, as you said, which is either the annihilation of the human species or maybe even worse.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah. Well, the example I also give to some people, and then I'll get to kind of how I think we got here. But the example I give to people is if you had an ant farm. Right. And you know, in my class, in one of my elementary school classes, we had one of those ant farms where you could see with the glass, you could see the ants, and they're making all their hol. And they're making little things, you know, for the typical ant, their lifespan is four weeks. Right. And. And if you were watching an ant Farm and 50 years is, you know, a little bit more than half of the average human lifespan.

[Unnamed Participant]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

Which feels like a lot to us. But if you were watching an ant farm and in two weeks time, which is half of their lifespan, you saw like a bunch of them dying. You saw massive destruction of what's happening inside there.

[Unnamed Participant]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

You would quickly look at that ant farm and go, oh, my God, what the hell's going on? We got to change this.

[Unnamed Participant]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

And because it's a little bit slower for us. And because it's. I think this is the. You know, Al Gore talked about the inconvenient truth of global warming.

[Unnamed Participant]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

This meta crisis, which includes planetary health, is so inconvenient to deal with because it means we have to look in the mirror, we have to wake up, we have to get off of our hamster wheel and look, everybody has regular life. You have families, you have jobs, you have distractions like TV and Netflix and social media. And to look at this in the mirror and say, wait a minute, every day that goes by, we're getting worse.

[Unnamed Participant]

Yeah.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

It's so true, Jason. I wrote a lot about this in my book Food Fix. I don't know if you had a chance to read it, but essentially it maps out how food is the nexus or the root cause of most of our global problems from obviously, chronic disease, which you mentioned. The economic impact of that, which is staggering. It's about 30% of our entire economy, is that. Or maybe even More. We have the destruction of our mental health through the food. And I did a podcast recently on the role of ultra processed food mental health. There's obviously many other reasons like social media, but food is a big driver. The academic performance of our children and the destruction of the American mind. Starting from kindergarten or even before up with like now they have these shark things when they get these kids full of chemical dyes. And it's also destroying our communities, driving increased racism through food marketing towards black and Hispanic communities. And it's also dramatically impacting the planet by the environmental destruction because of the way we overuse our water resources, the way we destroy our waterways through nitrogen runoff and nutrition. The waterways that destroy huge, vast coastal areas that 500 million people depend on for food. The incredible destruction of the ecosystem. You mentioned the sparrows, but we've lost 50% of all the birds in America because of the.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

Chemicals we spray on farming. And we lost biodiversity on farms. We lost our soil, organic matter. We've driven huge climate change because of how we farm and not just the cows, but everything we're doing. And so it's all, it's all related problem and we have to sort of talk about it as one interconnected thing. And I think your story of your own healing through dealing with the root cause, which was food, is kind of a metaphor for what we need to do for both our individual health, our collective societal health and planetary health.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah. I think it's not just food. I mean, I want to, I really want to make sure I also emphasize the mental health component because it goes both ways. Right. The bad food leads to poor mental health, but then poor mental health also leads to bad physical health.

[Unnamed Participant]

Yeah.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

And yeah, it's bidirectional.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah. It's the cycle. And I do believe there's a happy ending to this, you know, so just.

[Unnamed Participant]

Yeah.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

Yeah. I mean, this is very depressing.

[Unnamed Guest]

This is very depressing. So don't worry. We're going to get. We're going to get to the happy ending of how I think we can fix this. When I was immersed in public companies and I was immersed in studying these companies and I was in, you know, I had the good fortune of, of being inside of boardrooms and the good fortune of being in some D.C. policy meetings with public companies and politicians. Interesting to sort of see the lobby, how these decisions get made.

[Unnamed Participant]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

And I think everywhere it happens, I think most of it came with good intentions. I don't think everybody is malicious. I think there's some malicious people out there and there's some people and we can get to some of the big food companies that I think are still knowingly poisoning people. But I want to use, like, McDonald's as a. As an interesting kind of example of how something can start off with good intentions and then we don't consider the downstream externalities.

[Unnamed Participant]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

McDonald's started, you know, close to 80 years ago. It was a burger shack.

[Unnamed Participant]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

It was in the 40s. And back in the 40s, they got their beef from a farm. It was undoubtedly grass fed, finished beef because that's the only way they did cows back then. The potatoes were definitely organic. They had no, like, pesticides or chemicals or synthetic burden like we have today. They were deep frying it in tallow and beef aloe. And it probably wasn't that bad for you in the grand scheme of things. And I often point to when people don't believe this, Watch some movies from the 1970s.

[Unnamed Participant]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

And if you watch movies from the 70s, you'll notice, and I'm not talking about the main actors, I'm talking about all the people in the background of all these movies. You'll notice that very few people were overweight. People think like, well, the only way you can look fit and healthy right now is you have to just eat salads. But I would point out that in the 70s and you know this.

[Unnamed Participant]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

And you're older than I am, but people ate burgers and people ate fries and people ate pizza and people ate ice cream and people drank milkshakes.

[Unnamed Participant]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

And yet they were still looking like that.

[Unnamed Participant]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

So it's not just that it was junk food. Right. It's what was in the food.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

I mean, things that look like food now are not really approximations of food, and they're not actually food by definition.

[Unnamed Guest]

And so what happened with McDonald's is they had this mousetrap and they created a product that everyone wanted, and America in particular. But I'd say all of developing countries are based on consumption.

[Unnamed Participant]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

And McDonald's had something that people wanted more of. And so capital came into it.

[Unnamed Participant]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

And people are saying, hey, let's grow this. How do we turn McDonald's from a hundred thousand company, Hundred thousand dollars company, to what today is a $200 billion company.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

Unbelievable.

[Unnamed Guest]

And the only way to do that, and the capital markets, and particularly the public markets, have historically revolved around one variable, which is profit.

[Unnamed Participant]

Right.

[Unnamed Guest]

Which is how do we maximize profit. And so what happened with McDonald's over time, and if you follow the trajectory, is they had to figure out how do we make our burger the same in New York City as it is in Paris, as it is in London as it is in Tokyo? And how do we make our fries the same? And how do we make everything the same?

[Unnamed Participant]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

And we took this sort of Henry Ford approach of assembly line. Now with technology and things like semiconductors, it's. It's much easier to do that in software, but with food, which is naturally an organic, not homogeneous concept.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

Right.

[Unnamed Guest]

And it has natural variability.

[Unnamed Participant]

Right.

[Unnamed Guest]

You have to, to do it, you have to homogenize the food.

[Unnamed Participant]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

And you have to widgetize.

[Unnamed Participant]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

The food. You literally have to say, how do we turn things like animals and plants into widgets.

[Unnamed Participant]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

And the only way that we have figured out how to do it, and we did it, was with pure science. And how do we make more things synthetic? And how do we take out the variability that naturally exists in food? Yeah.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

Well, isn't. Isn't what's in a burger now, in the McDonald's burger, not. Not a lot of beef. There's some beef, but it's a lot of other words, too.

[Unnamed Guest]

If you look at the ingredient label of, Of American French fries at McDonald's, there's 19 ingredients in it. And we'll come back to this with the Kellogg letter. But in, In Europe, In Europe, it's four. In Europe, it's four ingredients.

[Unnamed Participant]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

But here it's 19. If you sort of take that and you just see, like, okay, more money keeps coming in. It's working. It's working. More profits, more profits, more homogenization, more widgetizing. You can understand how we decided, like, okay, to make the land more predictable, to make the animals more predictable, to make the output more predictable. We have to basically make everything more and more chemical, synthetic, and use the science that we developed for things like technology. We have to apply it to food. And if you go industry by industry and you take the same lens, there are a lot of companies that started with a much more, I'd say, ethical and moral approach to creating that thing. You know, early days of Lululemon, for example.

[Unnamed Participant]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

And you take clothing, you take things like Starbucks, you take things like the cocoa industry. And every single industry has the same trajectory. Trajectory, which is it started off with a natural, organic approach. And then to grow and grow and grow and grow, we had to widgetize and synthesize and commodify everything.

[Unnamed Participant]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

And you didn't consider, or they didn't consider because they weren't paid. Consider the externality.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

And they maybe didn't know at that time.

[Unnamed Guest]

They may. Yeah, they definitely didn't know it at the time.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

And then we invented Crisco. We didn't know it was bad for us.

[Unnamed Guest]

Correct.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

Until it was 1911. It was invented because of butter shortage. And it wasn't until 2015 that it was declared not safe to eat. 104 years later.

[Unnamed Guest]

That's right. The challenge has been, is that as we got later, you know, call it 90s and the 2000s, when it started to become clear and these public companies started to say, hey. Because there have been a handful of CEOs that said, they raised their hand and said this stuff is poisoning people.

[Unnamed Participant]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

Like we have to buy healthier products, we have to create healthier products. The problem though is that when they started introducing or creating healthier products, they were inherently lower margin and they were inherently less predictable because it was again, more natural.

[Unnamed Participant]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

And this was all good when things were good. But when things started to, you know, when companies started to have challenges or they started to miss their corporate earnings, they would always go back to the golden goose and say, oh, let's stop this healthier stuff because that's lower margin. We don't make as much money on it. And let's keep leaning into the stuff that we know works and people are buying. And it got to the point where there were certain executives that would get fired because they were trying to do the right thing.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

Well, Indra New Year Pepsi wanted to do the right thing and she got canned. She was the CEO of Pepsi.

[Unnamed Guest]

Andrew Newey, greatest female CEO of all time, is on my human co board.

[Unnamed Participant]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

And she talks about how she tried to move the Titanic.

[Unnamed Participant]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

You know, and you hear the stories of, because of the way capitalism works, there's always people along the way who may just try to make a living. They get fired if they don't maximize profit.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

Do you think, do you think there's any world in which we're going to move from a shareholder optimization to a stakeholder optimization economy, in other words, where it's not just about maximizing profit for the shareholder of the stock, but all the stakeholders and who actually are involved in that product in some ways, users, the society, the earth, everything. Right.

[Unnamed Guest]

It's starting to happen. It's starting to happen. And I think it has to happen from both a top down approach, which is regulatory, where the government says things like you can't sell trans fats or you can't sell artificial food diets so you don't even give them the option.

[Unnamed Participant]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

Unfortunately, that is slow, that is corrupt. And you would think that's happened faster.

[Unnamed Participant]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

And it has happened faster in other countries. In other countries where the medical system is more socialized.

[Unnamed Participant]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

Because the governments pay. The governments in those places bear the brunt of sick citizens.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

What most people realize is the US Government actually does pay for most of the health care in this country. It pays for 30% of its entire federal budgets for health care. And 44% of the entire health care costs in the country, which are 4.3 and a $4.5 trillion are paid for by the government across all government health programs from Medicare, Medicaid, Indian Health Service, pardon, Fence, and other programs like children's health program. So. So we are literally doing the same thing, but we don't realize it. So the government actually isn't acting in their best interest by doing the kind of policies they're doing.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah, yeah. Because we're spending so much money on just keeping people from dying, but they're still very sick.

[Unnamed Participant]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

Instead of all the preventative stuff that we've talked about, let's just back up.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

A little bit because I think this is a really important point. We know we're in the situation. We're nowhere poisoning ourselves. We know our food system is screwed. We know food industry is not meeting their own police and checking themselves. You know, I'm thinking about tobacco. Tobacco got to where it is now with dramatic changes in our laws and. And huge penalties to the tobacco industry because of litigation.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

It was a class action lawsuit. Yep. And it was easy to do because it was one thing. It's cigarettes, it's tobacco. Food is so many things. You know, are we going to litigate against red dye number 40? Are we litigating trans fats? Are we going to litigate against processed food? Against sugar? And I've talked to, to some people who actually were in the class action lawsuits, lawyers for tobacco, and they're like, it's really tough because it's so amorphous. And I'm wondering if, if you see a path for class action lawsuits and litigation. Because basically what you did was you wrote a really nasty lawyer letter from a top lawyer who could scare the shit out of Paintball to Kellogg and say, get your act together. Yep.

[Unnamed Guest]

Or.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

Or else we reserve our rights and we're going to go after you legally if you don't fix this now.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yep.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

So that was really compelling. But do you think. I think there's room for kind of a massive litigation approach to this because that's what's happened across, across all the changes we've seen inside, whether it's civil rights, women's rights, whether it's gay rights. Things that really worked were these massive attempts to change the law not by going to lobbying Congress, but by actually going to the courts.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yep.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

Do you think that's the right way or is there another path that we can get out of this? Because I think about this day and night and I, and I'm struggling with figuring out how do we, how do we drive this? And I'm working on food policy in Washington. It's incremental.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yes, right.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

But how do we actually make a quantum jump in this? I guess because it is existential for us.

[Unnamed Guest]

It is existential.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

As you've been talking about this meta crisis, it is existential whether people realize it or not, whether they're actually tuned in or not, whether they're narcotized by social media or streaming TV or the food that they're eating is dumbing their brain down, which is really true. It literally inflames the brain and disconnects your adult self from your reptile self. How do we actually come to terms with this? And what can we do?

[Unnamed Guest]

I think the bad news is there's no silver bullet. But the good news is I think it's a lot of lead bullets. It's a, it's a lot of, it's a lot of things. And I think there'll be some that are much more effective than others. As I said before, I think there's the top down that you mentioned, which would be regulatory, which would be things like either taxes or banning of things like artificial food dyes in South America.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

You can't get Tony the Tiger on them.

[Unnamed Guest]

Correct.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

Cereal boxing, where they took it off. Fruit Loops.

[Unnamed Guest]

Correct. And I think the reason that we chose as our first shot across the bow, the reason we chose artificial food dyes is it's so black and white.

[Unnamed Participant]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

There's nobody that's going to say I would proactively feed my children a bunch of petroleum derived chemicals over natural food colorings if given the choice. Whereas I think things like sugar, which have been around for hundreds, if not.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

Thousands of years, we shouldn't be eating petroleum products. Jason.

[Unnamed Guest]

I think things like sugar and, and sugar load and all of those issues are much more nuanced in terms of like what's the amount? Is it, you know, can you do gmo, non gmo? And so I wanted to pick something that was so objectively absurd that anybody, you know, who wasn't being paid to say it.

[Unnamed Participant]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

Would be like, yes, I would rather feed natural food colorings to my children than synthetic petroleum derived artificial.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

Not a, not a hard sell.

[Unnamed Guest]

So we have top down, bottom up is, is the part where I think it can be the most effective the fastest. And bottom up is the consumer. And that is them voting with their wallet. That is them boycotting. That is them signing our petition, which will be in your show notes. The point is the consumer can, can create rapid change if they vote with their wallet.

[Unnamed Participant]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

Or therefore. And if consumers basically said, we are not going to buy this crap because we know there's a better version that you're already selling. And until you give us a better version, if kellogg's sales drop 5%, just 5, it doesn't need to be 20. If it just drops 5% over the course of three quarters, they will change immediately.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

That's right.

[Unnamed Guest]

The problem with class action, and I think litigation is another course. Class actions in this country take like 5, 10, 15 years. There's just so much red tape and there's so much money that's going to be lost to lawyers on both sides that I think the class action stuff can work. But I think we don't have time. We have time for that. The only things that we have time for are both top down. And that's why we're in touch with several attorney generals, we're in touch with many members of Congress about this. Anyone who is patriotic and likes living in this country should understand that we as Americans should get the best version of a product you already make.

[Unnamed Participant]

That's right.

[Unnamed Guest]

Like that should be the line. Yeah, we should get the best version of a product you already make in another country, period. Full stop.

[Unnamed Participant]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

And I think, and so I think.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

Not saying cereal is good or we should be promoting it, but.

[Unnamed Guest]

Right.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

If you're going to eat cereal.

[Unnamed Guest]

Right.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

Shouldn't be poison.

[Unnamed Guest]

Right. So. And by the way, I think the other reason that Kellogg and the other food companies rapidly, I mean, and I mean rapidly change their formulation in those other countries was because they didn't want to have the warning labels on the box of cereal.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

Right.

[Unnamed Guest]

They didn't want to have a cigarette warning label on their cereal. So that's what happens. We required a warning label in this country on the boxes of cereal. It would happen overnight.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

That's what we're doing. Jason, I don't know if you know, but my food fix campaign, we're working with the FDA and Robert Califf, who's very in favor of this, to change food Labeling to create warning labels and care labeling on the front of packages. Yeah. So it's not like you have to read the ingredient list or read the nutrition facts, which are intentionally designed to confuse and confound us. Unless you're a PhD nutrition. And even then, good luck. It's like, how do you make it simple so a little kid can understand? Okay, yeah, maybe you have to make the grade A to F. If you don't make an A, you know, that's not good. But if you're B, probably okay. But don't need a D or an F. Right.

[Unnamed Guest]

But the fastest way is through the consumer. Yeah, the fastest way. Because these companies will adapt overnight. So Kellogg agreed. They sent us a letter back.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

Really?

[Unnamed Guest]

Yep. They sent us a letter back. We published this yesterday. So this is new. This is new news. Hot news.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

Okay.

[Unnamed Guest]

This is hot news. They agree to meet with us. I don't know what's gonna happen in the meeting. I don't wanna make any promises. I used to be a shareholder activist. I've done this many times. And what I will say, and I hope Kellogg is listening to this, I am not out for blood. I am out for change. And so I am not looking to publicly humiliate them. What my hope is, is that there's a bunch of parents in this room who recognize that they wouldn't voluntarily feed their kids all these artificial food dyes. And then they make the change and they come out and they say, and I'll. I'll help them do it. I will help them change their ways and be an ally, ironically. And my hope is that if they do this, that the public gives them credit. And the best thing that could happen is that sales go up. The best thing that could happen is that the stock goes up on them making this change. Because if the stock goes up, revenue, meaning the sales go up, then it will give a pass to all of the other companies who are petrified of harming their margins. And they'll say, wow, we can change too. The public actually is rewarding us for being responsible. Because I think the fundamental problem, Mark, and this is what I'm trying to do with Human Company and True Food Kitchen and all of our related businesses under the Human Company umbrella is I think the fundamental problem is up until now, companies have been rewarded for taking shortcuts. Financially speaking, they have been rewarded for making more money at the expense of people. And if we can show, whether it's through my businesses or other businesses, if we can show there's another way, that if we can show the world that you can have a successful business that.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

Heals people, you can do good.

[Unnamed Guest]

And if you can show that you can actually have a successful people that has employed a successful company that employs people that can pay their bills and feed their families by making the world better and healing people, we will start seeing a lot of companies that are starting to do it right. Because they're getting rewarded for doing it.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

That's right. I think that's the argument that the food companies make. And I've Talked to many CEOs of big food companies, and they say, look, we can't change because our competitors aren't changing. And if we do the right thing, our margins are going to drop and they're going to win, and we can't have that. So we're stuck even though we know it's the wrong thing to do.

[Unnamed Guest]

Prisoner's Dilemma. Yeah, it's Prisoner's Dilemma.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

I would also say, if Kellogg is listening, that they should also take out the hydrogenated fats, both the European and the American version. So that shouldn't even be there. And just to point out, we said that trans fats were banned. They really weren't. In 2015, the government said they're no longer grass, meaning they're not generally recognized as safe. It doesn't mean they're banned. It means that food companies should not put them in and they're not recognized as safe to eat, but it's still allowed. So we can still buy margarine, we can still buy all these hydrogenated products. A lot of companies have taken out, thank God. But, you know, Fruit Loops has hydrogenated fat.

[Unnamed Guest]

I know.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

So that's really bad. I think, Jason, you're such a great visionary and a clearer seer of what's going on in society around this meta crisis that's affecting our physical health, our mental health, our planetary health. You're doing incredible work to change that. You're having a beautiful voice that's clear and not dogmatic, and you're trying to help companies that are doing the wrong thing do the right thing by applying pressure in the right acupuncture point. And I'm really grateful to you. I'm grateful for everything you've done. I'm grateful for Hu Kitchen. I'm grateful for Hu Chocolate, which, thank God, I love, and everybody should eat. It's great. I mean, if you're gonna eat chocolate, that's the one to eat. And it's. It's a fantastic chocolate. You have Humanco, which is a meta brand for many Many products that you have and companies you have that really are trying to elevate the food system and show that there is a way to do good and do well at the same time.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

And I'm just so thrilled that you're meeting with Kellogg and pushing this forward, and it takes people like you to activate people who care, but maybe don't think their voice matters because it does. So thanks so much, Jason, for being on the podcast.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

Being on the doctor's pharmacy. And we'll continue this conversation and find out what happens next. So I'm on the edge of my seat.

[Unnamed Guest]

Thank you, Mark. And I just want to leave your listeners with one one final point about. Up until now, as companies have tried to scale, particularly in food, more scale has meant more problems for the world, for people and mental health in general. And I believe it's possible to scale where things get better as you scale instead of things get worse as you scale. And that is the fundamental problem we all need to help with. And the more people support companies that are doing it right and are willing to pay a little bit more for better practices, better ingredients, and better integrity, the more that those companies succeed, the more this is going to move.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

That's right. And in a sense, we think we're paying more, but we're actually paying less because we're paying less in our medical bills, our healthcare bills, our disability or lack of productivity or lack of enjoyment of life or lack of vitality. I mean, the human cost, it's not measured in actual dollars, is high. And also the human cost is measured on the back end. Healthcare cost is huge, so.

[Unnamed Guest]

That's right.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

I think it's important that, you know, maybe we, you know, it's interesting, I don't know if you know this fact, but I think in America, The Americans spend 9% of their income on food. In Europe is 20%.

[Unnamed Guest]

That's right. Yeah. It used to be the same.

[Unnamed Participant]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

40 years ago was the same.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

So I think, you know, eating cheap food has become inconvenienced. Food has become somehow a value instead of having good food. And I think we may want to shift over to thinking a little bit more about where we spend our money on and shifting over our values and priorities. But thank you, Jason.

[Unnamed Guest]

Thank you for having me. And please, please support the Kellogg's initiative.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

Sign the petition.

[Unnamed Guest]

Sign the petition and boycott their food until they make their changes.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

Amen.

[Unnamed Guest]

All right, thank you.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

Thanks, Jason. Thanks for listening today. If you love this podcast, please share it with your friends and family. Leave a comment on your own best practices on how you upgrade your health and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and follow me on all social media channels at Dr. Mark Hyman and we'll see you next time on the Doctor's Pharmacy. I'm always getting questions about my favorite books, podcasts, gadgets, supplements, recipes and lots more. And now you can have access to.

[Jason Karp]

All all of this information by signing up for my free Marks picks [e-mail] marks picks I promise I'll only email.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

You once a week on Fridays and I'll never share your email address or.

[Jason Karp]

Send you anything else besides my recommendations.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

These are the things that have helped me on my health journey and I hope they'll help you too. Again, that's doctor.com marks picks. Thank you again and we'll see you next time on the Doctor's Pharmacy.

[Jason Karp]

This podcast is separate from my clinical.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

Practice at the Ultra Wellness center and my work at Cleveland Clinic and Function Health where I'm the Chief Medical Officer. This podcast represents my opinions and my guests opinions and neither myself nor the podcast endorses the views or statements of my guests. This podcast is for educational purposes only. This podcast is not a substitute for professional care by a doctor or other qualified medical professional. This podcast is provided on the understanding that it does not come constitute medical or other professional advice or services. If you're looking for your help in.

[Jason Karp]

Your journey, seek out a qualified medical practitioner.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

You can come see us at the Ultra Wellness center in Lenox, Massachusetts. Just go to ultrawellnesscenter.com if you're looking for a functional medicine practitioner near you, you can visit ifm.org and search find a Practitioner Database.

[Jason Karp]

It's important that you have someone in your corner who is trained, who's a.

[Dr. Mark Hyman]

Licensed healthcare practitioner and can help you make changes, especially when it comes to your health. Keep Keeping this podcast free is part of my mission to bring practical ways of improving health to the general public. In keeping with that theme, I'd like to express gratitude to the sponsors that made today's podcast possible.