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- [00:00]
Dr. Mark Hyman
We're taught how to fall in love but not how to stay there.
- [00:03]
Bea (Bay Avocè)
We've grown up on a diet of Hollywood rom coms and Disney. So you see kind of hashtag couple goals online and it just doesn't map onto your internal experience. We think that relationships should be going to the spot, but healthy relationships feel way more like going to the gym.
- [00:19]
Dr. Mark Hyman
We have this fantasy world and there's a reality world and they don't match up. And so we end up being disappointed, disillusioned, discouraged, frustrated, and actually don't know how to navigate through the landscape of relationship to have a fulfilling, happy partnership.
- [00:31]
Bea (Bay Avocè)
The goal of healthy relationships is not to fight less. If a couple comes into my office and they never fight, I am always more concerned. Conflict in relationships is healthy. The problem gets to be where if we're going into hyperarousal or hypoarousal, we've lost choice. How I think about repair actually like what is repair is the ability to have choice, but when we're hijacked, we don't.
- [00:52]
Narrator/Advertiser
Bella Voce is a relationship repair expert
- [00:54]
Dr. Mark Hyman
with a master's degree from Columbia University
- [00:57]
Narrator/Advertiser
whose work helping couples reconnect after conflict
- [01:00]
Dr. Mark Hyman
and disconnection has reached millions, including through
- [01:03]
Narrator/Advertiser
her widely viewed TEDx talk on loneliness.
- [01:05]
Bea (Bay Avocè)
Repair is actually not first and foremost a communication skill. Repair is a capacity skill.
- [01:17]
Narrator/Advertiser
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- [02:52]
Dr. Mark Hyman
Welcome to the podcast.
- [02:54]
Bea (Bay Avocè)
I'm so, so excited.
- [02:55]
Dr. Mark Hyman
So for those listening, BE is one of my closest friends. We're going to get deep and personal about life and love and what goes right and what goes wrong and what to do about it. Because we both have had a storied history of relationships and hence we're relationship experts. That's what I say. I've been married four times, so I'm a relation expert.
- [03:19]
Bea (Bay Avocè)
I always talk about. I did not get into the line of work of repair because it came to me easily. I have fought tooth and nail, I still fight tooth and nail to figure out how we do this. And I think it's one of the most important parts of relationships that frankly gets kind of like blown over by a lot of teachers. It's like it becomes this one part in a four part process and for me looked way easier on the outside. And then when I practice it in my relationships, I was like, why does this feel so much harder than the teachers say that.
- [03:50]
Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah, like Relationships 101, that was a good course. I learned how to do it, I learned how to do the math. It doesn't quite work like that.
- [03:56]
Bea (Bay Avocè)
Wish, I wish.
- [03:57]
Dr. Mark Hyman
You know, as, as you're talking and something occurred to me and we haven't really talked about this, so I'm just going to throw it out there. You know, for most of human history, you know, we've been in functional relationships basically in the sense that, you know, the guy had to go do the providing and the woman had to take the babies. And it wasn't necessarily a love based thing. It was arranged or it was just sort of structural. But it wasn't like we had to actually deal with two independent human beings who had to navigate how to be together in a very new environment. Like this is kind of a new human environment that we're living in the 21st century. And you know, even when my, you know, parents were married, it was still pretty traditional roles and structures and all those things have kind of gone out the window. And that's why so many people, men and women, are disoriented about relationships. Is that, is that right?
- [04:47]
Bea (Bay Avocè)
I mean, listen, I think we have more expectations today of what a relationship is, should be than we ever have in human history. I mean, for many years, relationship was a business institution. It was, you know, you got married to someone in your same class. Arranged marriages. To your point, we had very particular roles. Now listen, it's not like those didn't come with struggles, but the expectation today is that one person will fulfill the role that a community has previously fulfilled. And so you're asking, and this is what my colleague and supervisor, Esther Perel talks about all the time, which is, you know, we want them to be our lover, our best friend, our confidant. That's a lot of things for one
- [05:29]
Dr. Mark Hyman
person and our playmate and our best friend and our, the whole thing.
- [05:33]
Bea (Bay Avocè)
And, and if they're not, not only do we become dissatisfied, we think something's wrong and then what do we do? We have this, we live in this frictionless virtual culture that says things should be easy, right? We're online, being fed everything that we want. It's like an Amazon package comes to us a day late and we're like, that's a two day shipping. I'm used to, you know, I'm used to this coming to my door in 12 hours. We have online virtually this experience that's handing us algorithm, algorithmically, exactly what we want to be fed. I can literally think of a brand, I don't even have to say it out loud. And it shows up on my feed somehow magically the next day. And then we expect our relationships to map onto that. So we have this frictionless experience that we are, that by the way, is becoming more and more frictionless. Our expectations are now higher than ever. And now the, the experience we're being fed virtually and most of us live in a pretty virtual world is not mapping on to what happens when we get home from work. And we're now in a bunch of tension with our partner. And so we think that's wrong. And what do we do? Most of us, most of us fall into one of two camps. We will either stay and work and work and work and work and never give up and lose ourselves. Or we go into, we go swipe. We're like, great, this Is too hard. I'm out because I have endless.
- [07:01]
Dr. Mark Hyman
Or we go numb.
- [07:02]
Bea (Bay Avocè)
Or we go numb. Yeah.
- [07:03]
Dr. Mark Hyman
And just stay and endure.
- [07:04]
Bea (Bay Avocè)
And endure. Right. So it's. We leave, and then we have tons of options. And then the options are. I mean, dating, like, come on. The options are endless. So you go on a first, second, third date, and you're like this thing. We don't really get along here. I bet I could find somebody who I could kind of.
- [07:19]
Dr. Mark Hyman
It kind of reminds me when I. When I was with my daughter, she was about nine years old. And Rachel, she's now an orthopedic surgery resident. She said, dad, how come, like, on the commercials, things seem one way, but in real life they don't really seem like that and they're not as good.
- [07:34]
Bea (Bay Avocè)
What did you say? How'd you answer it?
- [07:36]
Dr. Mark Hyman
Well, it's marketing. You know, it's like. It's all fantasy. It's all fantasy. And I think that's what you're talking about. We have this fantasy world, and there's a reality world, and they don't match up. And so we end up being disappointed, disillusioned, discouraged, frustrated, and actually don't know how to navigate through the landscape of relationship to have a fulfilling, happy partnership.
- [07:55]
Bea (Bay Avocè)
But it's not just fantasy. This is what we've been taught. I mean, think about it. I. Okay, so it doesn't matter if I'm literally speaking to a audience of 50 people or 5,000. I could ask some. I could ask the audience, how many of you grew up with models in your. From your caregivers or parents that you look at and you want to emulate. And like, pretty much two to five people raise their hand.
- [08:19]
Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah. Out of 5,000, literally, like, so few
- [08:22]
Bea (Bay Avocè)
people are sitting there. Some people think they did because they. Because they didn't see their caregivers fight. And so they. And so that modeling of no fighting, which is usually sweeping things under the rug or hiding it from them, all of a sudden, now we're expecting perfection. Or we grew up in households where there was a ton of fighting and no resolution, or someone wasn't saying something and there was all this resentment, and we're feeling it energetically. Right? So we have the models that we grew up with who, by the way, no fault to them, they had no idea what they were doing. None of us do. Then we've grown up on a. On a diet of Hollywood rom coms and social media and Disney. And so you see kind of hashtag couple goals online, and you see a family of Six who's looking all put together and you're there. You've. You may not even have a kid and you're barely getting out of bed in the morning. You're like barely functioning. And it just doesn't map onto your internal experience. And so this idea, while it sounds kind of silly and trite of Prince Charming and Princess, it's. This is, this is ingrained inside our subconscious for what we should expect. And by the way, if we're not studying relationships, if we're not in therapy, if we're not, you know, going to workshops or reading the books, where are we learning what it actually means to be in a healthy, long term, secure, functioning relationship? We're learning from all of these outside forces and none of those actually resemble what a healthy, long term relationship looks like. Unless you were very, very lucky.
- [09:58]
Dr. Mark Hyman
I think that's so true. We just don't have models and I can't find one in my life. And there's a few couples that I know that I'm like, wow, that's a great couple. Or I love how they relate. But I certainly didn't have that growing up and I didn't know how to navigate love. And I think, you know, most of us probably find it fairly easy to get into a relationship, but staying in it and navigating it is really hard. And so you talk about how love isn't necessarily about avoiding conflict. It's about learning how to repair and reconnect. Right. And just repair that disconnection that happens as a natural part of two people being in a relationship. Can you kind of explain how you came to understand that this was sort of a missing piece, this whole idea of repair, which by the way, is the title of your new book, I think, which is coming out soon. Not that soon, but it'll come out and we'll have her back on. So this is really an important framework because, you know, conflict is easy to enter into, but it's hard to get out of.
- [10:52]
Bea (Bay Avocè)
Yeah.
- [10:53]
Dr. Mark Hyman
And people, you know, dis disagree in sometimes violent ways. There's often contempt, there's, there's judgment, there's criticism, there's blame, there's shame. There's all these ways of fighting that are kind of dirty fight, you know, and what you talk about is a different way of engaging with conflict that's actually a positive.
- [11:13]
Bea (Bay Avocè)
Here's, here's the thing that I think most of us get wrong about relationships, which is that the goal is to fight less, that if we fight constantly that something is wrong and if we never fight that something is like that, that that means we're, we're doing well. I will tell you, if a couple comes into my office and they never fight, I am always more concerned than for, than with a couple who does. Because I'm like, something's going on under the surface. Someone's not speaking up. Like conflict in relationships is healthy. It's not like if you are fighting and listen, I'm talking outside of manipulation, abuse, coercion, power, like normal messed up people. Just, just people who are just kind of messed up like the rest of us. Like we. This is part of relational dynamics. Now. I, I actually think about it in a few stages and you could talk to different professionals and some will say there are five stages and blah, blah. So I'm just going to map it as simply as I can. So the first stage of relationship is what we all know as the honeymoon stage or the merge. This is where enmeshment happens, where the two eyes sort of, or more eyes disappear and you start to merge. You're like, this feels so good. I finally found the missing piece and here we are. And we think we're supposed to stay here forever. And then what happens? Disillusionment falls upon all of us. And all of a sudden that creative habit that we thought was just so amazing turns into the fact that they're kind of messy and disorganized. And. And so we enter into this second phase of relationship, which is what I might call the power struggle. So research has shown that the power struggle is basically where most of us end up. This is where most. It's not the final stage, but it's where most of us end up. This is where you were, you were, you entered into a relationship as two individual people. You came into relationship, you merge, you're one. It feels so good to be with this person. And then all of a sudden something happens. You get into your first fight, you realize that that yellow flag that you decided not to look, look at looks a little more like a red flag and you start to have tension. This can show up in a lot of different ways. I think about, like, like this is such a common example for that. I think most of us can probably resonate with something that has happened similarly, which is like the couple who moves in and one person either likes the thermostat, one temp and the, and the other person like, and, and. Or someone likes background noise on all the time and they're listening to the podcasts and the audiobooks and the music just all the time because it calms them down. And then the other person is like, wait a second, I need silence. Like that helps my nervous system regulate. And now all of a sudden this couple is starting to fight about something that's happening on a day to day basis that seems kind of small, maybe mundane, like these sorts of things that all of a sudden start to like, just gnaw at you. And when we stay at the content level of argument, we don't. It's really hard to get anywhere because you don't actually know what's happening under the surface. So if I'm saying turn the music down, turn the music off. And you're like, I just need, give me a break. I just got home from a long day. Like, let me just have one right? If you get under the content and understand, understand, this helps me regulate. This way helps me calm down. Now you're at the point where you can actually negotiate. That's an easy example. But let's buy headphones that's have, buy headphones, have a room in the house that's dedicated to being quiet or have times that you're listening, like now you, now you can problem solve, but like that's, you know, kind of easy for some of us. But then we're talking, then we're talking about things that show up in every relationship dynamic. Are we going to have kids or not? Where are we going to live? What does our social fabric look like? What kind of place do we want to live in? I mean, these are things that the commons research shows that 69% of our relationship issues are unresolvable. They will be perpetual throughout our relationships. That's a lot. That's a lot that will never get resolved. And if we don't understand that 69, not 68. Nope, definitely 69. That's what they say. I've always wondered about that number. Like, how do you get to 69? Could we just round up to like a solid 70? I honestly have no idea. But to me this is, this is a piece of what we get wrong. We think the goal is fighting less, but actually there are going to be tons of problems in our, in our relationships that we never quite get over.
- [15:48]
Narrator/Advertiser
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- [17:44]
Bea (Bay Avocè)
I I'll just actually speak personally here. My wife Emmy and I we one of the things that we came up against early on that we still work on navigating is I was coming out of a relationship where we did not really have a social life. He was quite an introvert I and that we were in Covid it was fine like it but by the time I got out of that out of that relationship I was starving for community and I was starving for going to events and going out. I meet my now white wife Emmy who is opposite the toe and she is like social butterfly has all the stamina in the world. And at the beginning, that was awesome because I was starved for it. I was like. But little by little, we get out of the merge phase, and all of a sudden, she now wants to be way, way more social than I do. She wants to stay out way later than I do. I am. And we're trying to figure out how to navigate this now. Part of why this is tricky, and this is the under. Like, this is the underneath of the underneath that's happening for a lot of us that we need to sort of. That we need to excavate in our relationships. But the truth is, a couple relationships ago, I was in. I was engaged to a man, and he. He broke off our engagement out of nowhere. Like, it.
- [18:58]
Dr. Mark Hyman
It.
- [18:58]
Bea (Bay Avocè)
I was completely blind. Maybe I should have seen it coming, but I didn't. And after he broke up with me, all of these lies started to come out. I started to realize, wait, he didn't go to school where he said he went to school. He didn't have the job he said he had. I mean, like, massive lives. And so before that, there was like, a before Bea and an after or before that relationship and an after that relationship version of Bea. And I was pretty trusting before that relationship. Some might even say naive. And after that relationship, something happened in that shock where I ended up being, like, around every corner. I started to be like, wait a second. What don't I see? What am I missing? How. Because I was. I was in this industry. I. I was a professional. How did I miss it? And so I was like, what did. What am I missing? So that became kind of a central question, and my body went into such shock for, like, the next. Oh, my God. It was wrecked. My confidence was wrecked. So, anyway, fast forward to two relationships later when I meet Emmy. Emmy wants to go out. She's done nothing wrong. And her staying out kicks up this. This piece of me that just had not been healed from this last relationship. And every time she wants to go out now, I don't know this at the beginning. This isn't what I'm thinking. I'm thinking I can blame it on Emmy. Like, why does she need to go out? Whatever. I can, like, have a whole bunch of reasons, but we were in so many fights about this, about, like, me wanting to go home early. Can we just. Can we just compromise and go home? And it just didn't work. It was really, really hard for us until we started to get underneath the surface, underneath her real value and desire for freedom and my real value and desire for safety. Those are things that we are going to deal with for the duration of our relationship. But once I started bringing to her that this is what's happening for me when you leave and this, it was, it started to change the game for how we did social events, she started to feel more compassion. I started to be able to. I saw her coming home. Every time I didn't go home with her, I saw her coming home and not springing something on me, which was my biggest fear, that all of a sudden I was going to turn around and she was going to say, hey, just have something to tell you. And I would be like, how did I miss it? What did I miss? Right?
- [21:15]
Dr. Mark Hyman
Or you couldn't trust her.
- [21:17]
Bea (Bay Avocè)
Yeah. But it wasn't necessarily about her. And the truth is with rel in relationships, we bring in all of the baggage from every single relationship leading up to that relationship that hasn't been healed, whether it's from our family of origins or the relationships before. We bring all of that into our partnerships. And what we're really saying is on a totally unconscious level because it's not like we're, most of us are having these conversations. What we're really saying is here is all, here are all the places that I'm still unhealed. My hope is that in this dynamic I offer these things to you on the altar of our relationship. I offer these things to you and that you can help me heal them. I'll do my part. You'll do. But nobody's having those conversations consciously and by the way, vice versa. So we're both just dealing with a bunch of all of us.
- [22:09]
Dr. Mark Hyman
Most of us are just like two little kids in our little kid selves having the fights, not our grown up adult, higher self. Right.
- [22:16]
Bea (Bay Avocè)
1, 100%.
- [22:18]
Dr. Mark Hyman
And those are very hardwired, automatic responses that we can change, but we have to first identify them.
- [22:24]
Bea (Bay Avocè)
I mean, here's what I would say. So there's also funny enough research that talks about how it doesn't actually matter so much how we fight, even though it's important. But some people yell, some people are going to go quiet, some people are going to want to process more, some people are going to avoid. And we can find couples who are just as happy actually with those kinds of, with that kind of tension in the relationship, but they have to come back together. So we might always be fighting with the five year old version that shows up. And the truth is as long as we come back together, we'll likely be okay. But most of us don't know how to do this. Now, when we think about why we know so much information about relationships, like using eye language and active listening. But then we cannot practice that in
- [23:16]
Dr. Mark Hyman
the moment because we're hijacked.
- [23:17]
Bea (Bay Avocè)
We're completely hijacked. So to me, 90% of what we're doing in repair is building our capacity for tension.
- [23:24]
Dr. Mark Hyman
The nervous system regulation.
- [23:26]
Bea (Bay Avocè)
Yes, it's. But it's not just nervous system reg. Of course we have to have nervous system regulation, but it's also nervous system expansion capacity. Capacity. Where your window of tolerance. If you have a window of tolerance and you're. You generally go into hyper arousal. And those are my friends who are like, you know, you might yell, you might get hot, you might say too much, you want to process forever and talk, talk, talk, talk, talk. Those are. That's me. And then on the other side of that window of tolerance is hypoarousal. Those are the people who overwhelm. Looks like they completely leave the building. They kind of shut down, dissociate. Ye leave or figuratively. What we're trying to do with repair, the key skill here is expanding the window and then understanding little by little how we can start to, to notice in our bodies what comes up before we're at 90%, before we're like almost tipping over into hyper arousal or hyp. Or into hypoarousal. The, the problem gets to be where we, we. If we're in. If we're going into hyperarousal or hypoarousal, we've lost choice. How I think about the repair actually, like, what is repair is the ability to have choice, but when we're hijacked, we don't. And so we might know the tools, we might have read the books. And when we're in the heat of the moment, we have no ability to use the tools that we actually have because we're completely hijacked. I mean, and your audience knows this better than anybody. Just like you train to go into a cold plunge and you don't. You're probably not gonna start at three minutes. Like, you're probably just not. You're. You like, need to build up. You go to the gym, you need to build up to the weights that you're gonna, that you, you cannot go in there and lift a hundred pounds if you have never lifted before. That's just literally not gonna happen.
- [25:10]
Dr. Mark Hyman
The love gym.
- [25:11]
Bea (Bay Avocè)
That's right. Actually, one of our, one of our mutual friends and a colleague of mine, Annie Lala, I love this, this line that she says, well, yes, that. But what she says that I just feel it. Like I just. She said this and I was like, that is brilliant that we think that relationships should be going to the spa. That's our orientation towards relationships. If we're in a healthy relationship, it will feel like the spa. But healthy relationships feel way more like going to the gym. And then maybe that gym has a spa attached.
- [25:42]
Dr. Mark Hyman
You get a steam after.
- [25:43]
Bea (Bay Avocè)
Right. But you're not going to the spa, you're going to the gym and then you get to steam after. That's right. And I think that really orients can help orient because so many people come to me with what is too hard. How do I know if my relationship is too hard?
- [25:58]
Dr. Mark Hyman
When you pull the rip cord.
- [25:59]
Bea (Bay Avocè)
Exactly. And part of that is are this is going to be simplifying the whole thing. But to ask yourself, and you can kind of like get the noise out of the way, to ask yourself, am I shrinking inside of this relationship? Am I disappearing? Am I watching myself go away? No, I'm abandoning myself 100%.
- [26:21]
Dr. Mark Hyman
Or betraying myself.
- [26:23]
Bea (Bay Avocè)
Yes. And little by little, all of a sudden, like, you don't feel quite as you as you used to. Like, maybe you don't do the things that you used to love as much as you do. You're not as. You don't have that kind of spark you used to have. You've given up some of your friends. You, you're, you're a little, you're like a duller version of yourself. Or am I becoming more of who I want to become? And part of how we do that is by building capacity. So even through fighting, even through tension, am I starting to be like, oh, wow, I breathe just a little bit longer there I had, between stimulus and response, I had just a nanosecond more of time and space.
- [27:03]
Dr. Mark Hyman
That's practice to get there, right?
- [27:04]
Bea (Bay Avocè)
Well, it's training. This is, it's practice, it's training. This is what I'm saying about the cold plunge. Like, you cannot, you're just. It's gonna be so unrealistic. And if you do go into the cold plunge for three minutes the first time, you're probably holding your breath and freaking out and like, just wanna show off for your friends. It's probably not sustainable, but you have to practice. I actually think a lot about cross training here and I think about mapping this onto other relationships. And like most of us, what we're doing is we're training in the hardest environments possible when both of us are super triggered and we don't we're not training outside.
- [27:33]
Dr. Mark Hyman
So are you. Are you saying that people should learn tools to help regulate their nervous system, like with their breath or separating? Until you kind of are resourced and regulated? Because you talked about how if you're not resourced and regulated, it's not a time to have a conversation. Yeah, fighting.
- [27:48]
Bea (Bay Avocè)
But sometimes. But this is what generally happens. Of course it's not the time to have a fight, but what do we do? For some of us, it feels good to expel, and so we just say the thing. Because in the. In the heat of the moment, it's like. There's just like a. That felt really good. Or it feels safe to close down. And so this is what I mean by the window of tolerance. But if we don't know what our physiological cues are before we go into the place of complete shutdown or before we say the thing that we might regret, it's gonna be really hard to train that at 90% arousal. Right. So absolutely. This is physiological. And I think what the relationship space is missing right now is a lot of the conversations are around the communication skills of repair and less about the physiological. To me, repair is actually not first and foremost a communication skill. Repair is a capacity skill. Because we are going. I mean, I could say this a million times over and it probably won't be enough. We're gonna lose our skills, we're gonna lose the tools in the moments that we need the most if we're not training, if we're not actually building the capacity. And this is what I mean by cross training. This is what I mean by setting ourselves up for how we actually practice repair when we don't need it. Instead of practicing repair, instead of me giving you a laundry list of scripts here about what to do when you're fighting because you're gonna forget them. You're not gonna use them.
- [29:12]
Dr. Mark Hyman
So how do. How do people navigate to build the capacity?
- [29:16]
Bea (Bay Avocè)
Why I use a gym, which I know is kind of cliche, but. But it's just easy for all of us to understand, is because we know we have to start with lower reps, lower weight to build if we don't wanna get injured.
- [29:28]
Dr. Mark Hyman
To build, start with the easy stuff.
- [29:29]
Bea (Bay Avocè)
You have to.
- [29:30]
Dr. Mark Hyman
Like the dishes.
- [29:31]
Bea (Bay Avocè)
Exactly, exactly. You start with the things or you. So. So say your partner sends it. Okay, so here's what I want you to do for your audience. I want you to think about right now, your hardest relationship. Maybe it's your romantic relationship. Maybe it's a relationship with a parent or a sibling or a boss or a coworker and think about something that they do that if you're talking about on a scale of 1 to 10, 10 being like the highest trigger, it's like a 5 or lower. For you, that could be something like the dishes. It could be something like they leave a mess on the counter for you to clean up. It could be that they send a text that. That, you know, usually they use an exclamation point and an emoji, and today they didn't, and you don't know why. And now you're in your head. So I want you to pick one or two of these. Do you know what do you know?
- [30:17]
Dr. Mark Hyman
I text trauma. It's like a thing now. It's like a new thing. I don't worry about it, but I get it. On exists.
- [30:23]
Bea (Bay Avocè)
It totally exists. If you say. If you say good morning and it doesn't have an exclamation point versus Good morning with an exclamation point, like, we read into that. That's language now. That's like the way we communicate. If you do one heart and not four hearts, like, you know, this is.
- [30:38]
Dr. Mark Hyman
What does that mean?
- [30:39]
Bea (Bay Avocè)
I mean, this is real language. This is how we're communicating, to start actually practicing. So you know that the, The. So I'm asking everybody to think of the thing right now and think of it for you too. Like, what's a five or below? For me, it's something. It actually would be something like a. Like a text where. Oh, no, you know what it would be? For me, it would be, my wife comes home and she's on her phone. When she walks in the door, it's like a five. Or to me, transitions are really important. And I get really impacted by, like, how did we wake up today? How are we coming home from work? And did something happen? And is it about me? And anyway, I'm still in my own work, but. But so it would be something like she comes home, she's on her phone, and she doesn't immediately say hi, and she doesn't look up and she's kind of distracted. So what I might do is all of a sudden, like, my. My kind of initial response might be to. In my head. It's not. It's not actually something I would say out loud. It would be like, great, something happened at work, or what did I do? Or now we're going to be here all night. That might be. My automatic response is not necessarily towards her, but it's a thought for me. Maybe for you, it's something physiologically that happens. It's like you're, you can feel your heart start to race, or you can feel yourself start to sweat a little, or you get cold, or you start
- [31:51]
Dr. Mark Hyman
to shallow breathe, right?
- [31:53]
Bea (Bay Avocè)
So you start to track these little responses if you don't know what they are. Now you literally, from this moment on, you start to track what's that little thing? So for me the cue is, ah, I can feel this thought loop coming on. So the goal is this is a five or under and now I start to disrupt the pattern. So instead of, instead of, oh, that thought is wrong. Now I'm saying, okay, what's my one practice? For me it might be literally breathing for 30 seconds, extending my exhales and starting to just calm for 30 seconds, maybe 60, maybe 90 if I'm lucky.
- [32:28]
Dr. Mark Hyman
But it's powerful when you do that.
- [32:30]
Bea (Bay Avocè)
And I don't think we understand. I think we've, I think we, because we're starting, we've. The conversation for so long has been about trauma and about using eye language. And what's the thing we're going to say, and it's not actually what's our physiological response that is going to completely derail the conversation after this.
- [32:47]
Dr. Mark Hyman
I mean, what, what, what you're talking about is, is very specific, which is when we have a stress. And it could be, you know, you think your partner came home half an hour late because they were having an affair with somebody, or maybe they were on their way to buy you flowers.
- [33:01]
Bea (Bay Avocè)
Totally.
- [33:01]
Dr. Mark Hyman
But like, you're going to have the same physiological response regardless of the insult. If you have an interpretation of that as danger. Right. It doesn't matter if it's a real or an imagined threat. It could be, you know, really, you know, a tiger chasing you. Or it could be, you think, you know, your partner is having affair because they stayed late at going to find something beautiful for you to buy as a gift. Right? So like, and it's the same physiology. And so the stress response is what you're talking about. When your heartbeat quickens, your breath becomes shallow, your chest tightens up, your gut tightens up, you can't think clearly. And all of a sudden, you know, it's like you're in this acute stress response and that's what we're actually engaging in relationship with. And that's, that's very dangerous because in, that's when we were hijacked by what we call our amygdala, which is our fight or flight or fear or feeding or fawning center in our brain that keeps Us stuck in these ancient limbic lizard like relationships that aren't very mature because they don't allow us to sort of wake up to what it's like to actually be in a sort of an adult awake person. You're in this sort of hijacked state. So I think you're talking about is asking people to stop when they start to feel those sensations and tune into those sensations and then do something to interrupt that pattern.
- [34:15]
Bea (Bay Avocè)
That's right. That's right.
- [34:16]
Dr. Mark Hyman
Catch your breath.
- [34:17]
Bea (Bay Avocè)
Because the, the, the thing is we probably won't be able to stop the physiological response from happening. That physiological response, maybe it get, it decreases over time, but get used to it, like make that response your friend, because that, that's not necessarily going anywhere. What we do after is the thing that we can control now. Maybe it goes away. Maybe our partners can repair with us. And all of a sudden, like over time, that's that.
- [34:43]
Dr. Mark Hyman
Are you diving game?
- [34:44]
Bea (Bay Avocè)
Yeah. Mark's favorite topic these days.
- [34:49]
Dr. Mark Hyman
I did it. My wife did it. It changed everything in our, in our conversation, in. Our ability to regulate in a conversation is really dramatically. It was like so noticeable for both of us that our ability to stay in a grounded resource state in a conversation where maybe we wouldn't have been able to before was really, it was interesting. It was like a nervous system reset. And I don't know if it'll last, but it's good while it lasts.
- [35:10]
Bea (Bay Avocè)
Well, it's such a, I mean, this is part of why psychedelic therapy is such an interesting modality to explore. Right? Is I listen, I don't think it's a panacea. I don't think it's for everybody. I have a whole, you know, I, I do a lot of research in that space. So I'm not. But, but I also, I think I, I, you know, I have my qualms about it. But, you know, we have this critical window that opens up this critical period that opens up after different psychedelic experiences. And I'm pretty sure, and you can correct me if I'm wrong here, but ibogaine has one of the long.
- [35:36]
Dr. Mark Hyman
The 90 days. At least that's what they stop measuring after 90. So who knows how many it is. Yeah.
- [35:40]
Bea (Bay Avocè)
So with something like mdma, it's two weeks. With psilocybin, I think it's a little longer. But this window is what allows you to start to retrain habits. And so it would make sense that you're able to practice regulation in a very different way. And then the hope is that translates over time, not because you did this one time peak experience, but because you've integrated it. And then practice, practice, practice, practice, practiced, and then it becomes habitual. And this is, I think, a really big piece here. Is that the goal. So the goal of healthy relationships is not to fight less. It's not to not fight. That's not the goal. The goal is how do you come back.
- [36:20]
Dr. Mark Hyman
Not fight dirty.
- [36:21]
Bea (Bay Avocè)
That's right. How do you come back to. How do you learn to come back together? Because most of us are fighting and not actually coming back.
- [36:26]
Dr. Mark Hyman
Well, let's talk about this, because you do talk about this whole repair framework that you use to approach with your own relationship and with your clients. And. And there. I think there's some really powerful things in there. Like a friend of mine once said, you know, only one crazy person in the room at a time, you know?
- [36:44]
Bea (Bay Avocè)
Yeah, that's great.
- [36:44]
Dr. Mark Hyman
That's kind of the first one. Like, one person at a time. Talk about that. And what is that? And like, take us through this framework.
- [36:49]
Bea (Bay Avocè)
Yeah, yeah. The. The one person at a time, I think, is, again, where a lot of us get into trouble. Because think about how many fights you have gotten into where they're talking and you're talking over them and you just want them to hear you, but obviously they just want you to hear you. Like, they're. It's like a. It's a hot mess. We know that doesn't work, but it's really hard not to do so. And we're not going to be able to do it if we're not regulated. That's just the truth. So the. The first step I actually talk about is to do nothing. That's where we're practicing. We're practicing with a 5 and below. We're literally starting to expand our tolerance for tension. Then we get into it. At some point, we're gonna have to come into a conversation, start to hash some things out. I learned this from my teacher, Terry Real, and colleague Terry Real, who's a fantastic couples therapist. And what he talks about is one person goes at a time. And why this is so important, which it's. It is critical, is because if both of us are going. Nobody's listening.
- [37:44]
Dr. Mark Hyman
That's right.
- [37:45]
Bea (Bay Avocè)
No one's listening. But we have to. This is. I'm just going to go back to differentiation and the power struggle, because what's happening here is if somebody is speaking something that hurt you. Right. They might not be using eye language. I actually. I actually have. The more I understand repair, the more I think it's a One person job. I used to say, okay, so your partner has to talk to you this way. And you, then you go back. It's like kind of the frameworks that we hear about, right? Which is you talk this way, you speak, you speak from the I perspective and without blaming and listening. In an ideal world, that's what we're doing. We're speaking without blaming. We're talking from the eye. We're. But like we're not living in an I world. And if you're talking to your boss or your mom, the idea that you're going to say, hey, mom, will you use I language with me? And that's gonna work is like zero. And you're not gonna hand your boss a worksheet and say, hey, let's practice nonviolent communication. Like, that's just totally unrealistic. So I've started to think about it.
- [38:44]
Dr. Mark Hyman
Well, maybe not a bad idea.
- [38:47]
Bea (Bay Avocè)
Maybe not a bad idea. But most of us are probably not gonna have the Lux that. So if you're just a normal, average, everyday human like most of us, and that's just not on the table, then I like to think about repair as a one person job. Again, hopefully your partner shows up for this, but if they can't, you're owning your side of the street. So first step, one at a time, right? You have a speaker, you have a listener. There are many frameworks that, that people talk about. You can use Imago, you can use Ellen Bader's developmental model. You can use Terry Reals rlt. Like there are lots of ways that you can have this conversation. So the idea of what I'm talking about is you could basically map what I'm talking about with any tool skill set that you already have. One person goes at a time. What does that mean? That means one person.
- [39:33]
Dr. Mark Hyman
Although, by the way, I don't think most people know how to actually properly listen to somebody.
- [39:37]
Bea (Bay Avocè)
Oh, I think it's a, it's a totally underdeveloped skill. We'll talk about why. Well, I'll get there. Because it's, it's real. It's. It's not because we don't want to, by the way. It's because it is freaking hard. So I'll talk about that. So one person is speaking, we'll call and the other person is listening. We'll call the speaking partner, the hurt partner. Not that you're not both hurt. You just, it's just for right now. Just for right now. So you'll both get a turn, but you're not going to go at the same time. So the hurt partner is speaking. The hope here, if this is you, the skill that you are building is you are building enough differentiation, and I'll talk about differentiation in just a second to be able to say, here's what's happening from my perspective. Here's what's happening over here in my world. In order to do that, I'm not blaming you because I am different than you, because I am literally differentiated. I am saying to you, I'm saying, I'll just use Emmy and I as an example. We'll use the. The night out thing. What I used to say is, hey, it's really hard for me when you go out because I don't trust you. Right. That would be, like, kind of undifferentiated. Now I say it's really hard for me when you go out because I actually feel quite lonely. I've now done the digging inside of myself to say, like, we're different. I'm responsible for what I'm feeling and experiencing over here, and you can help me. Like, you can. You can help me with that if you want. But ultimately, we can't control another person. The other person's job, the listening partner. This is critical and hard. To your point, most of us don't know how to actually listen. Part of why it's hard to listen is because if you're not differentiated, it's very hard to not take what your partner is saying personally.
- [41:24]
Dr. Mark Hyman
And what do you mean by differentiated?
- [41:26]
Bea (Bay Avocè)
The idea of differentiation is that we are two eyes. We are two individual people, and we're also caring for the we, which is very different than individuation, which is, I'm gonna do what I want. I'm an autonomous human. Who can. Who can is gonna make my own choices. And it doesn't actually matter how that's gonna land on you or how it will hurt you or I. I'm just like, I'm gonna do what I want. That's independence. I'm gonna do what I want. Co dependence is that merge phase. Right. Then you don't have to call it code, but that's like, just to. To help kind of identify where you
- [42:00]
Dr. Mark Hyman
do what the other person wants.
- [42:01]
Bea (Bay Avocè)
Yeah, 100%.
- [42:03]
Dr. Mark Hyman
A friend, a friend of mine called said, knitters become skiers, and skiers become knitters. It's like, if you're, you know, like to knit, but your partner skis, you're gonna ski and vice versa until you're done with that, and then it'll be over.
- [42:14]
Bea (Bay Avocè)
That's exactly right. So differentiation would be, I'm my own autonomous human and I care about you. In fact, one of the, one of the highest predictors of relationship satisfaction is the ability to accept influence from your partner. So if I say to you, hey, Mark, when you talk to me like that, when you talk to me like that, in that tone, it's really hard for me to hear. And you might be thinking in your head, what tone? Like, I'm not talking to you anyway. But instead of saying that out loud, you can think it all you want. You're crazy. You say, okay, here, let me, let me actually try and change that. Not because you agree with them. This is where also we get into a lot of trouble. Not because you agree with them. You might literally be in your head like, that person is crazy. My tone is fine. But because you love them, because you love this person and so what do you do? You shift for them. You accept their influence so that you're building a relational habit and foundation here. Now, when we think we have to agree with our partner, this is again the listening person. When you think you have to agree with them. So they come home, they come home and they say, we just went to dinner tonight and you made fun of me in front of all of our friends and you're over here being like, what are you talking about?
- [43:34]
Dr. Mark Hyman
Right?
- [43:35]
Bea (Bay Avocè)
I definitely didn't. Like, I didn't, I, I don't even remember what I said or I said that and I didn't, like, you totally took it the wrong way. You're not saying that out loud. You can think it, think it all you want, but you're look, you are listening to the person like you're a researcher being like, huh, or like they're an alien. I like actually thinking about them as an alien. Like, huh, you're an alien creature who is so different than me, who I would never think the same as and who's who. Like, like I would never get hurt by that thing that you like. If I said, if you said that, I would literally never get hurt. But if we assume sameness, which is agreement, if we assume we need to agree, we're on losing ground, we're on losing ground. So if I know I don't need to agree with you and I can literally look at you like you are a full on alien from another planet and be like, huh, what's that like to live in your alien planet over there?
- [44:26]
Dr. Mark Hyman
I think that's a really useful construct that you, you, you've written about, which is this idea of perspective over perception and how to become an anthropologist of your partner's inner world, which is getting curious. Well, like you, like you don't have to agree that you want to, you know, be accountable and, you know, dead people, but you can be curious about that culture that does that.
- [44:46]
Bea (Bay Avocè)
Right, exactly.
- [44:47]
Dr. Mark Hyman
And so I think, I think that's a really important framework because, you know, most of us are operating from these automatic childhood wounds and patterns and our traumas, big traumas, little traumas. And so we bring that into the relationship and the conversation. And unless you get curious and listen and realize, well, that person's really just in this moment of being a wound five year little girl or a ten year little boy. And you can have compassion for that and no, it's not about you.
- [45:14]
Bea (Bay Avocè)
This is differentiation. Literally this is, that's the work of differentiation, which in order to do that we have to expand our tolerance for tension, we have to expand our capacity because your partner might be saying some stuff about you that you really don't want to hear.
- [45:29]
Dr. Mark Hyman
I want to share an example because this happened to me and it was like a magic trick. I was, my ex wife and I, we're still great friends and we, we, you know, we went to my best friend's 60th birthday. Now she didn't know a soul and she said to me before Mark, would you please make sure that you introduce me to people and include me in the conversations and do all this. I'm like, sure, no problem. Now I had just had heart surgery and I had an atrial fib and an ablation and I was a little uncomfortable and I was on a pain, pain pill. So I was like a little gonzo. And we walk into the, to the party and my best friend's girlfriend at the time rushes up to me and I was like kind of overwhelmed and I just like my wife was standing there and I didn't stop her. And after like five minutes I did. But by the time it was too late, my wife was just so upset. She went out of a 10 out of 10 reaction and probably triggered by something, you know, not being taken care of by her family or father. Who knows what was going on there underneath the surface, but it didn't really matter. She was entertained. She like stormed out and went to the parking lot. So I was like, oh shit, this is my best friend's birthday, what's gonna happen? And so I, I, and I obviously didn't do what she asked me to do. And so I, I understood that I kind of screwed up after A few minutes. I went to the parking lot, and we found her, and we sat on the curb. I said. So. I said, okay, tell me everything. Like, what are you feeling? What's up for you? Like, I'm here to listen. And I just let her rant and, like, you didn't do this and you didn't do that? No, no, no. Just, like, Just. It was intense, and I had to sit there, and I had to take it and not take it personally, but just receive and hold my presence and breathe and stay grounded in my body and not.
- [47:12]
Bea (Bay Avocè)
You were able to do this and
- [47:13]
Dr. Mark Hyman
not be about, like, my. My point of view or. God, don't be such a. You know, don't be so annoying. This is my best friend's birthday. How could you do this? Like, what did I. All this stuff, you know, I could
- [47:24]
Bea (Bay Avocè)
have said that's going on in your head, probably.
- [47:26]
Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah, like. Like, come on. Like, get your shit together. She was crazy. And, like. And. But it. But she legitimately felt that way, so I wasn't gonna say, don't feel that. And I just listened. And then after she was done, I said, is there any more? Is there any more? I let her get it all out. And then I. And then I just said, let me get this right. Let me see if I understand. I didn't do this, and I hurt you this way, and I did this, and I just kind of laid it all out. And she's like, yeah. And the next minute, she was in my lap, and I was like, wow. And so I was like, oh, this isn't a magic trick.
- [47:53]
Bea (Bay Avocè)
It is a magic trick, but it
- [47:55]
Dr. Mark Hyman
took an enormous amount of, like, I would say, like, lifting weights, like that. Same analogy. It's like, it was hard to hold myself still and just listen without having my own narrative of trying to argue with her in my head while she's talking, but actually to just listen to her and be the anthropologist, to like, what the hell is going on with you? And all people want is to be seen and heard and understood. And if you get that, it's like.
- [48:25]
Bea (Bay Avocè)
It is kind of like a magic trick.
- [48:27]
Dr. Mark Hyman
Kind of like a magic trick.
- [48:32]
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- [51:00]
Bea (Bay Avocè)
I love that you shared that. I love that you said that part of what you were doing that you probably didn't know you were doing at the time this is from former CIA agent Andrew Bustamante, and you mentioned it a little earlier, which is the difference between perception and perspective. So most of us spend all day in our own perception. We are looking out of the world from our eyes through our lens. And, like, I'm over here thinking, okay, is the mic working? Is what? Am I thirsty? Right? Those are. Those are things. And we are not spending even a fraction of time visiting perspective, which would be, what's it like over there for you? How are you feeling? Is the temperature okay for you? Right. That's another muscle to train. That's actually what you were doing when you were able to be like. It's not like those thoughts go away. It's not like you're not thinking, this is crazy. This is my friend's birthday. How could you be doing. You're thinking those thoughts. You just don't say them out loud.
- [51:55]
Dr. Mark Hyman
I didn't say them out loud. And I was like, they don't really matter because she's having her experience, and I'm not gonna convince her otherwise. So all I could do here is just like, listen to what she's suffering with.
- [52:06]
Bea (Bay Avocè)
That's right.
- [52:06]
Dr. Mark Hyman
Because I love her and I don't want her to feel this way. So I care about her, and I know she's having a moment. And yes, I did something that I said I wasn't gonna do. I didn't include her. I didn't introduce her, but I was like, you know, on drugs and out of it and kind of overwhelmed, and I just lost it for a minute. But it didn't matter. Like, all she needed was to be seen and heard and felt and to not have me even. I didn't. I didn't even need to present my point of view. I wasn't like, okay, now I need you to get me and hear what my perspective is. Cause it didn't matter in that moment. And then. And then we went back and had a great time at the party.
- [52:39]
Bea (Bay Avocè)
I mean, this is. This is one person goes at a time. And maybe you. Maybe you never need her to hear your perspective. But for some of us, you'll probably
- [52:47]
Dr. Mark Hyman
listen to the podcast,
- [52:50]
Bea (Bay Avocè)
but for some of us, we will want our perspective to be heard. So the key here is your perspective matters. You're putting it over to the side just for a minute while your partner gets to do exactly what. I mean, this was such a good example, Mark. And then you get a turn. It's just not at the same time. And if you start to lose your capacity to be with the other person to be in their perspective to be like, oh, this is making sense to me. I mean, I don't agree with it, but like, cool. That makes sense. Given your world, your history, your traumas, your wounds, your patterns, it makes sense that that would hurt you if you start to get out of that. Right. You're now getting out of your window of tolerance. This is what I mean by starting to track it at like 20% versus being at 90%. So here you are, you're starting to like, you know, maybe she's taught, she's saying all these things and I had
- [53:39]
Dr. Mark Hyman
to just breathe totally ground. I literally had to just like force myself into the earth.
- [53:44]
Bea (Bay Avocè)
But you have, you have to train that not all of us are Jedi ninjas like that mark like that.
- [53:50]
Dr. Mark Hyman
Trust me, this wasn't, I had practiced this skill. It was something we have practiced, but it was, it was like in a 10 out of 10 environment. So we, we practice it in, in moments where it wasn't so activated. And that's easier. Yeah, but when it's. So when it's a 10 out of 10 emergency, you know, lights are off.
- [54:06]
Bea (Bay Avocè)
Yeah, yeah. As it was.
- [54:07]
Dr. Mark Hyman
And so I, you know, I think what you're, what you're talking about in terms of this, this, this ability to actually regulate and to get your nervous system in a place where you actually can have these conversations and then do the repair is so critical. And it's physiological first and then it's psychological.
- [54:24]
Bea (Bay Avocè)
Yeah, that's exactly. But we've been taught the opposite. The opposite, exactly. Um, and I just want to say, just to wrap that up for people who, who are starting to lose stamina in those conversations where you're the listener and your hurt partner is saying some shit that you're like, okay, that, that stung. Like, I don't know if I can be here anymore. Your training ground is how can I start to notice when I'm starting to get dysregulated? And then you set boundaries. This is what I mean when I mean, repair can actually be a one person job. So if your partner is talking to you in a way that doesn't work for you, what do you do? You say, hey, can you actually say it this way? That would be really helpful. There's no way you're going to be able to do that if you're dysregulated. You won't be able to say that. But if you're regulated, you can actually help your partner help you if you start to lose it. If your partner's Talking. And you're just like, okay, this is way too much for me then. This is where boundary practice works. So either you're in repair work or you're in containment work. You're in. You're in nervous system regulation. Or you're saying, hey, I actually need to go practice. I need to contain.
- [55:25]
Dr. Mark Hyman
What does that mean?
- [55:25]
Bea (Bay Avocè)
So you. You set a boundary. We get boundaries really wrong. We think boundaries.
- [55:29]
Dr. Mark Hyman
Oh, okay, let's go into boundaries.
- [55:31]
Bea (Bay Avocè)
Yeah, well, we think boundaries is going to be pretty simple. We think boundaries have to do with someone else changing. Like, I'm like, hey, stop talking to me like that. That's my boundary. Right. But actually, my boundary is you're going to talk to me like that no matter what, because I can't control you again, if you care about me, hopefully you won't, but I can't. I can't ultimately control you. So if you keep talking to me like that, I'm gonna like, hey, this conversation so far, I haven't been. I'm like, I'm about to hit my edge. I actually need to leave the room, and I need 10 minutes and I'll be back. But that's a boundary. The boundary is a way to take care of yourself. It has nothing to do with what you do over there.
- [56:08]
Dr. Mark Hyman
Asking that person to change.
- [56:09]
Bea (Bay Avocè)
Yeah, as if we have way more power in repair than we think we do. We have. It doesn't our partner. It would be great. If our partner can show up. Yes. But if our partner can't, we can make requests. And then if they meet those requests, like, 70% of the time, that's pretty good. If they can get you and attune to you, like, 70% of the way, that's pretty good. I like the 70%.
- [56:32]
Dr. Mark Hyman
68.
- [56:33]
Bea (Bay Avocè)
I don't think 68 is enough. You know, I'm not like the Gottmans. You know, 69 is just not going to cut it for me. I like a solid 70 heuristic here. So you're.
- [56:43]
Narrator/Advertiser
I.
- [56:43]
Bea (Bay Avocè)
You're literally either practicing expanding your. Your capacity for tolerance, extending that window, or practicing boundary work. And none of this requires the other person.
- [56:52]
Dr. Mark Hyman
That's what I found in that. In that moment, she didn't have to do anything except vent and be, you know, completely activated. And I could just hold space, and that's. That was enough. And that's. And it. And even though in my mind, I can think she's wrong, it doesn't matter who's right or wrong. Like, someone said to me, do you want to be right? Or do you want to be in a relationship?
- [57:10]
Bea (Bay Avocè)
Yeah, who's right, who's wrong, who cares?
- [57:12]
Dr. Mark Hyman
And we, yeah, we get in this sort of rigid view that we have to be right or we have to convince our partner about the rightness of our perspective or our opinion or what they didn't do or what they did do. And there's just kind of no point in that. It doesn't serve anything.
- [57:25]
Bea (Bay Avocè)
There's. There's another great line by Terry Real, who I just think. I think he nails it with this one where he says, there is no such. There is no such thing as objective reality in a relationship. There are just two subjective truths happening at any given time. So there's my experience over here, which is, hey, that thing that you said at dinner really hurt my feelings. And that was messed up that you said that. I can't believe you said that. And then there's the other person who's like, I just made a joke, I did. Like, there was nothing personal about that. That meant nothing. Nobody's right. And as long as we're fighting for that, we are going to get nowhere. There is no quote, unquote truth in that experience. There's no and. But if you're on that plane, if you're fighting on that plane, you're both gonna lose. Because, by the way, if you win and your partner loses, you both lose, you have to go to bed with them that night. Like, you're both losing.
- [58:12]
Dr. Mark Hyman
That's right. So in this repair process, like, the first step is sort of one person at a time.
- [58:17]
Bea (Bay Avocè)
Second step, well, do nothing. Do nothing is actually the first. Like, you gotta just, you gotta regulate. This is the capacity building. This is where you're not, you're not bringing anything until hopefully you're regulated. So then you're regulated. You come back, one person goes at a time.
- [58:31]
Dr. Mark Hyman
Well, then the being curious part then,
- [58:32]
Bea (Bay Avocè)
then there's apologist part. Yes, that's right. This is where you're literally practicing differentiation here. You're practicing. You are a separate person with separate ideas, beliefs, values, wounds, traumas. And because of that, I can look at you like an alien species because we're very different from one another. And I can learn to not take that personally. In order to do that, I have to expand my capacity for tension because you might say some shit that doesn't feel good. Right, right. And if you say that, I want to be able to. To either be with that and have it kind of roll off my back or ask you to say it differently or maybe that hurts so bad. And it just pinged something in me that I can set a boundary and I can walk and I can pause and I can come back.
- [59:12]
Dr. Mark Hyman
I mean, interesting. I, I, when I was 18, I don't know if I ever told you the story, but I, I, I was bullied a lot as a kid. And, you know, I was this sort of nerdy kid who read a lot of books. Served me well in the end. I hate thinking about you bullied, but it was fine. I'm good now. When I was, I was traveling out West. I was 18, I was camping in this kind of campsite outside of Banff, which was like this little town in Alberta in the Canadian Rockies. And there was this British guy, kind of older, like probably 40s or maybe early 50s, who's just kind of a dick. And he kind of was making fun of me, and I was like. And I just kind of felt initially, I'm, like, hurt and upset. And then I had this insight that really helped me navigate my life, which is when someone is saying shit to you that's mean or hard or difficult or whatever it is, it's either one of two things. Either it's their issue and they're projecting onto you, and they just, you know, you can have curiosity and compassion for them. Or two, maybe there's some nugget of there, even though it's coming out in a messy package that is worth looking at yourself for. So it's always a gift, in other words, like, it's always a gift, and it's hard to hold that, you know, but, but you know what? You kind of start out early on talking about this, that relationships aren't this kind of fairy tale. They're a place for growth. So they're a place where we evolve, where we wake up, where we learn about ourselves, where we can't do it on our own. You know, we can be very happy alone. But the minute, you know, are in a relationship, all of a sudden you kind of have to deal with things that you haven't dealt with. And I think that's, that's the beauty of it. It's also the hard part of it. But it's actually, it's actually what makes relationships so amazing, is that they're a vehicle for waking up.
- [60:50]
Bea (Bay Avocè)
Yeah.
- [60:50]
Dr. Mark Hyman
And it doesn't mean you're just gonna stay together, but it means it's a vehicle to wake up and help each other evolve and grow. And if, if that could be your North Star as a couple, I think then you, you have an anchor that you're all both working towards and it's not me against you, it's we're holding hands together, walking towards a place that's better for each of us either together alone.
- [61:09]
Bea (Bay Avocè)
It's so beautifully put. I mean this is to just make a real roundabout way here into the third, the third stage of relationships, right. You have the merge, you have the honeymoon stage, you have the power struggle. I mean what you're painting a picture of is interdependence. This is, this is, it's so hard to get to that stage, that place of I can exist fully and we can exist fully. I don't lose myself in you. I can appreciate you for your differences. I can allow you to have the freedom that you want while also feeling the safety that's here. Right. That's interdependence. That's the stage that most of us never make it to because we get so stuck in the power struggle. And my hypothesis here is part of why it's hard for us to have that North Star and make it there is because we aren't practicing capacity building, which is the thing that allows us to get there. It's the thing that allows a really shitty fight to end up with. Okay, wait a second. I can self reflect, I can take ownership that is mine, but not more than what's mine. And I can see the value in it. That's hard to do. We have to have healthy enough self esteem that we're not pointing the finger and blaming outward or we're, or we're not pointing the finger inward and blaming ourselves in order to get to a place where relationship. To your point earlier around Annie Lala's dojo, right, this relationship dojo. In order for a relationship to deeply be a dojo, we have to be able to look inward and then we also have to be able to say just as much as we say my neighbor's shit stinks too, we have to also say and I'm human just like the rest of us. Like we have to be able to hold both of those pieces in order to get to the place where we can actually fulfill on that North Star.
- [62:54]
Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah. And it's something that just we don't have any guideposts for in the society. And I'm kind of excited for your book to come out because I think people are going to eat it up.
- [63:04]
Bea (Bay Avocè)
I hope so. I mean the hope here is that we normalize how hard relationships actually, actually let me, let me just say what I actually want to normalize. Another, another colleague and mutual friend. Of ours, Jennifer and Brian Russell. They have a line that I think is phenomenal where how they hold relationships is that it's not that we. We. We always say relationships are hard, but it's not that relationships are hard. It's that our personal work is hard and we get to do that inside of our relationships.
- [63:37]
Dr. Mark Hyman
That's right. That's right.
- [63:38]
Bea (Bay Avocè)
And I think that's such a beautiful way.
- [63:40]
Dr. Mark Hyman
It's an opportunity versus a burden.
- [63:42]
Bea (Bay Avocè)
It's. And so many of us won't actually be fortunate enough to find somebody who to do this work with. There are people who are looking all over and haven't found. So if you're fortunate enough to be in a relationship and to be in it with somebody who's willing to do the work with you, that's a gift. Even if it is a pain in the ass. It's also this deep gift. And so I really want to normalize that. It's okay to be in the thick of it. That is part of relationship. It's not outside of it. It is part of what love is.
- [64:10]
Dr. Mark Hyman
So just getting kind of looped back for a minute on this capacity piece, because this seems like a core skill. Like, it's like if you want to be in relationship. It's like if you. If you want to go and run a marathon, you have to actually train for it, you know? You know, do this many miles every day. And it's like there's a whole thing to build the capacity to be able to do that. How do you build the capacity to be in the heat of a relationship and to do the work without causing more harm and actually both of you progressing towards waking up and healing.
- [64:40]
Bea (Bay Avocè)
So we talked about two critical pieces today. One is building these. I call them kind of micro repairs, which is building a space where you're a five or below where you're practicing this daily. You are literally like something comes up that just kind of stings, and you consciously start to take a few breaths or notice what your body does or take yourself on a walk or do what you need to do to start to take care of yourself, to be able to come back. You do those daily reps, and it doesn't need to take long. But like, if you do those daily, you are in. I mean, that's a huge five breaths. Great. And another way to practice is perspective versus perception. So you're literally. Your partner is talking to you. They're talking to you about their day. They're not even bringing something that you know, you're not in a Fight. They're talking to you about that. This is your practice ground where you're like, huh? What would it be like to think about my boss that way? I've never thought about my boss that way. That's what would it be like to think about my mom or my dad or my sibling that way? I get along really well with my sibling, but if I were in their shoes. So you're literally practicing putting yourself in somebody else's shoes. If you practice just those two things, you are in really good shape. And then what I'd like to add on to that is once a week with your partner, set up a time where you two are literally practicing doing this work together, where one person is the speaker or the hurt partner and one person is the listener and you're doing it outside of a level 10. You're bringing up something that's like once a week. Like again, we're in the middle of the scale here. Something that's around a five. That's not nothing, but isn't. You're this. You literally consider this practice so that when the inevitable big fights hit, you're not sitting there being like, I have no idea what to do. And now all of your mechanisms take over.
- [66:31]
Dr. Mark Hyman
But I imagine, I imagine being like, if you do this consistently in a relationship over time, that, that the whole volume comes down and everything. And then your capacity to do this much more fluidly, easily, quickly, without the level of activation, without the nervous system getting out of control, without your amygdala hijacking your entire body and brain, that, that actually even though these little maybe irritants or things won't go away, how you navigate them changes and it becomes almost kind of like just very a soft part of the relationship. Not like this thing you're just fighting against every day.
- [67:04]
Bea (Bay Avocè)
You will com. You will completely change if you take this on. This is if you take on building your, your expansion for capacity, you will be more confident, you'll be more self assured. Things will more easily roll off your back. And I don't mean roll off your back like you're rolling over and you're like, this is. That's not this. Because you're also learning to set boundaries, right? You're also because you're building the capacity to be brave enough to actually say something out loud that you would never say before because you're too scared of what they're going to think. Because you don't think you can handle them leaving or them. You're building all of this capacity. This there is to Me, Nothing more important.
- [67:39]
Dr. Mark Hyman
Well, there's also something in here that you're. We haven't really explicitly named, which I think is so important, which is honesty in a relationship. Because it's those small things that get buried, never get said, never get shared, that eat away in a relationship. And even if they're a little bit sticky to deal with in the moment, that ultimately that brings more clarity and connection by actually being honest.
- [68:01]
Bea (Bay Avocè)
This is, this is why you take one day a week to practice. So you're literally, you're like, it's like you're cleaning the dust off of a table every week. Right. Once a week you both go do it on different days and it's a 10 minute conversation. You keep it short, you keep it time bound. So for my avoidant friends or my people who don't love to process as much, you still naming no names. Yeah, naming no names. No names. That you can actually stay in your window of tolerance and you're not thinking this is going to go on forever. So if you create a structure where it's time bound, one person listens, one person's response. The only job of, excuse me, one person speaks, one person listens. The only job of the person who is speaking is to just name what hurt and try and own your side of the street. The only job for the listener is to get their world, understand their perspective. And again, you could put any framework inside of this if you already use a framework.
- [68:51]
Dr. Mark Hyman
But it's not just listening and being silent. It's actually letting the other person know that you got them.
- [68:56]
Bea (Bay Avocè)
Yes. And here's the thing. If we're practicing, sometimes we're starting at square one. Sometimes we're literally starting at I can listen and I can repeat back your words. And that's about all I can do. Yeah, like, that's. Some people, we're just starting there. That's not bad. That's just lack of practice. Yeah, Some people are going to be able to repeat back your words and do it with some chutzpah. Right. Like you can actually feel them and you're like, oh my God, I get where you're coming from. Some people it will sound like you're regurgitating. It's going to be terrible. It's not like it's not going to. But you're. This is a practice grab. This is literally a practice ground where the hurt partner says, hey, here's what I'd like from you. I'd like for you, I'd like for you to repeat back. I'd like for you to ask an open question. I'd like for you to give me a hug after. I'd like for you to respond with one thing that makes sense to you. Right. So you can think about what you want and ask for it in a conversation.
- [69:48]
Dr. Mark Hyman
This is such a beautiful reframe of relationships from the fantasy love story, live happily ever after, Disneyland kind of romance, to understanding relationships as a vehicle for growth and evolution of our souls and our. And our emotional psychological state. Right. And that ultimately is going to get us to happiness. This other thing just kind of hijacks us, and then we.
- [70:10]
Bea (Bay Avocè)
It doesn't exist.
- [70:11]
Dr. Mark Hyman
Doesn't exist.
- [70:12]
Bea (Bay Avocè)
Right.
- [70:12]
Dr. Mark Hyman
It doesn't exist.
- [70:13]
Bea (Bay Avocè)
Right. It doesn't exist.
- [70:14]
Dr. Mark Hyman
And so we have this fantasy, and that's why we're always struggling in relationships. This is such a beautiful framework. I want to spend a couple of minutes now after we've sort of gone through the. This. This repair framework, and there's a lot more to come, and everybody can. We're going to talk about how to find more about it in a second. You. You also work in psychedelic assisted couples therapy, so people understand about. Anybody who's watched how to change your mind on Netflix or read Michael Pollan's book understands that there's a lot of therapies out there that are being used to help people deal with trauma one on one. But you're talking about relational psychedelic therapy, which is a very different understanding of how to use these compounds to help change dynamics. And Rick Doblin, who is a friend of both of ours who you work with, said to me, I wouldn't still be married if I didn't do MDMA therapy with my.
- [71:01]
Bea (Bay Avocè)
Yeah, yeah.
- [71:02]
Dr. Mark Hyman
So can you kind of talk to us about what this promise is of this potential, what the limitations are? I think it's going to be probably soon approved by the FDA as a therapeutic modality for trauma and maybe for relational therapy. I don't know. But talk to us about, you know, the promise and the. The pitfalls.
- [71:19]
Bea (Bay Avocè)
Yeah. So to clarify, I do MDMA assisted couples therapy research, and I do that with. In. In conjunction with Columbia University and maps. Right now, a lot of what's been researched is MDMA for PTSD and trauma. And what we are looking at is what's happening in the underground, and which is the practitioners who have been doing this for many, many years, some of whom have been doing it before it became illegal. What practices are they using and how can it actually benefit couples? So we're looking in the underground to give us some answers. About what are the best practices, what are protocols, what are, how are people dosing, how are people using the therapy process within a couple's setting? Um, the hope is that, I mean, listen, what we understand about mdma, and I, and I do research with MDMA specifically, what we know about MDMA is that it takes away our ami, our amygdala's response, which to your point earlier, is gonna be the response that is putting us into fight, flight, freeze, et cetera.
- [72:21]
Dr. Mark Hyman
Puts a lizard in a cage.
- [72:22]
Bea (Bay Avocè)
That's a great. Yes, yes. Especially for people with entrenched, really tough relational dynamics or trauma. If we can just get a little space from that, if we can just get our amygdala quieted just a little, it helps us do all, everything that we talked about today. It helps us listen to the other person's perspective, which puts an entirely new lens on what's happening relationally. It can, it can change an entire dynamic. So what we see is because, because MDMA lowers the amygdala response and it's dumping all these feel good chemicals. The hope is that what we're starting to see is that couples can use this in a one to three time session and with the right integration, that they can actually reset their relationship and then start to learn new patterns. For some of us, the work that I'm talking about today, it's just, it's too entrenched, it's too hard. Our brains just cannot. And so for those people, NBMA assisted Couples therapy, when it's legal, like, it will be an amazing resource. But again, I want to say it's not a panacea. And I have seen many people, I know so many stories about people who do it, and then they go back to their patterns because they think that they do the drug once and all of a sudden it's gonna, everything's gonna be. And I've just seen it over and over.
- [73:40]
Dr. Mark Hyman
But in a way it allows you to be in that dynamic conversation that we're talking about for repair in a way that's downregulated. It sort of, it's sort of physiologically changes you. So you can actually be present and be curious and have an open heart and not shut down and not go into your reaction and not go into your fear. And that really helps with understanding and compassion and healing, I think 100.
- [74:00]
Bea (Bay Avocè)
Well, so, and, and if you can do that in a couple session and you start to bring to light, you sort of lift the baseline where now you can, now you can see each other a little Bit differently. You have a different understanding of the patterns that have been happening in your relationship before, if you can do that. And then you layer in practices, tools, integration. Right Then all of a sudden, like, we're in a different place. And so there's a clinic out of San Diego called Enamoury, and they're working on a protocol right now with Rick around doing a pilot study to put couples through six to 12 couples through a protocol for this. So we'll start to understand a little bit more. I mean, we don't have a lot of couples research. The only person really researching it is Ann Wagner out of. There's a couple more. But. But she's done a lot of research, but right now, and she's out of Canada. But right now a lot of the research is focused on ptsd. Even in a dyadic approach, one person has come in with PTSD or only one person, the PTSD partner is the one taking it. And so we haven't done this with quote, unquote, healthy normals, which. What does that even mean? But with somebody who, who's undiagnosed. And that's the, the hope is that this can also translate to people who don't have to have a diagnosis.
- [75:09]
Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah. And who can just want to enhance their dynamics or enhance their understanding of each other or improve their relationship. I mean, there's so many ways that this can be used. And I think, you know, I'm glad we're starting to have these tools because, you know, historically we just had to, you know, white knock white.
- [75:24]
Bea (Bay Avocè)
Yeah, yeah.
- [75:26]
Dr. Mark Hyman
Which is what we've been talking about. Breath. And I think it's, it's, it's. It's hard to know your mind. It's hard. I mean, that's why I think, you know, meditation is such an incredible tool because most of us think we're both, we're our thoughts. And when meditation's a simple practice where you sit there and you observe your thoughts and you try to quiet your breath and quiet your mind, but inevitably thoughts come and go and you realize, wait, they're just like clouds floating on the horizon. These are just chatter that isn't so substantive. It's not real. And so we de. Identify with our thoughts and that's a very powerful thing. I remember When I was 19, I did a 10 day meditation retreat and we meditated for like 12, 14 hours a day. And at the end of that, you know, I just realized, wow, you know, like, like there's my whole inner world that I constructed that I thought was, you know, concrete and real, but it's just like clouds, and I don't have to attach to them. I don't have to believe them. My friend Daniel Amen says, don't believe every stupid thought you have.
- [76:25]
Bea (Bay Avocè)
That's great.
- [76:26]
Dr. Mark Hyman
That's great. And I think that's the power of these practices. So when you're talking about capacity, there's lots of tools like meditation or other things that can be helpful or even psychedelics can be very powerful.
- [76:38]
Bea (Bay Avocè)
Absolutely. There are so many ways to build your capacity. Meditation is a great one. I mean, what you're doing is, again, putting more time in between stimulus and response.
- [76:46]
Dr. Mark Hyman
Response.
- [76:46]
Bea (Bay Avocè)
And you're practicing that out of a level 10 trigger, outside of a level 10 trigger, which is so unrealistic for us to be able to do anything inside of. Do anything differently inside of.
- [76:56]
Dr. Mark Hyman
So I imagine people listening, okay, this sounds great. I don't know how to do this.
- [77:00]
Bea (Bay Avocè)
Help.
- [77:02]
Dr. Mark Hyman
The good news is you've created a web app that allows you to take people through a process, so to unpack what you've done, what you've created, and what you've made available to people. Because I think everybody's flailing around, searching. I mean, if you look at Instagram, it's like all this relationship advice. It's like. And I don't know how much of it's good or bad. I mean, I tune into your Instagram,
- [77:22]
Bea (Bay Avocè)
which is Bay of Oche, B, A,
- [77:25]
Dr. Mark Hyman
Y, A, V, O, C, E. Yeah. So everybody check that out. Follow Bea. But in addition to that, she's got. And by the way, she does these amazing little brilliant clips that are just like little nuggets of gold that you could listen to in very short time and feel better afterwards. Because I certainly do. And I know you're my closest friend. I still, like, listen to them. Like, wow, that was good. Is this person actually my friend? So cool. And then, and then, and then tell us about this platform that you created for people.
- [77:56]
Bea (Bay Avocè)
So it's called the Repair Lab. And the idea is, I do listen. I was getting so many dms, being like, help. What do I do? And I was like, I need to figure out how to work with more people. My private practice is full. I need to figure out how to work with more people. And so I. I launched this. This membership program where you do. We do monthly Q&As where you can literally write in, and I'll answer questions, and we'll go live and we'll talk about it. And then it also has a platform that will have all this content about the foundations of repair around practices, around boundaries, around forgiveness, around all these tools that we need to build, to build our capacity to learn repair. And then I've developed a repair AI app so you can literally get on at any time. And you can. If you're in the middle of freaking out, you can be like, what do I do? And it can help you. And that's built off of. Of my, you know, my work. A lot of other professionals worked, and I just kind of combined it into this repair app to help you. Because what I found was that, you know, maybe you don't have therapy booked until next week or you don't. And so in the heat of the moment, it's really hard. You just need something to. So you can call it or text it and it will help you get through. And. And it's a membership program, and we're launching it right now. So it's brand new. So it's exciting because the people who are getting in on the ground floor, like, I'm getting feedback. We're. Yeah, like you're helping me build it because I want to know how to build it with you.
- [79:14]
Dr. Mark Hyman
Yeah.
- [79:15]
Bea (Bay Avocè)
So you can just go to bayo voce.b, a, y, A V, O, C,
- [79:18]
Dr. Mark Hyman
E. How do they find it again?
- [79:20]
Bea (Bay Avocè)
So you go to my website, bayavoche.com, which is just B, A, Y, A V, O, C, E. And you can find it and sign up and we'll
- [79:27]
Dr. Mark Hyman
put in the show notes, we'll put the link, and, you know, your website has a beautiful quote on the front, which is, we're taught how to fall in love, but not how to stay there. And so if you want to stay there, check out Bea's work, check out her repair lab, check out her Instagram and her new book, Stay tuned, because that's coming out and it's going to be a blockbuster. I know it is, and hopefully she'll let me write the forward. Anyway, love you. Thanks for being on the podcast and I hope y' all listening. Got some useful information about how to stay in love, not just fall in love. What if the greatest threat to your
- [80:00]
Narrator/Advertiser
health wasn't bad choices, but bad design?
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Dr. Mark Hyman
In America, chronic disease isn't accidental.
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Narrator/Advertiser
It's the predictive outcome of a food
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Dr. Mark Hyman
system built for profit, not people.
- [80:11]
Narrator/Advertiser
A web of corporations, lobbyists, and policymakers all feeding off your plate. They call it choice, but your options were engineered. From the grocery aisle to the school
- [80:22]
Dr. Mark Hyman
cafeteria, Big Food, Big Ag and Big
- [80:25]
Narrator/Advertiser
Pharma wrote the rules together. The food pyramid distorted the science bought the front of package health labels designed to deceive. This isn't a broken system, it's a perfectly functioning machine producing disease, dependency and distraction exactly as intended. Food Fix Uncensored pulls back the curtain on the collusion, shaping your health, your choices and your future. Because once you see how it works, you can never unsee it. Food Fix Uncensored the truth they never meant for you to read foreign. If you love this podcast, please share it with someone else you think would also enjoy it. You can find me on all social media channels Dr. Mark Hyman, please reach out. I'd love to hear your comments and questions. Don't forget to rate, review and subscribe to the Dr. Hyman show wherever you get your podcasts. And don't forget to check out my YouTube channel at Dr. Mark Hyman for video versions of this podcast and more.
- [81:25]
Bea (Bay Avocè)
More.
- [81:25]
Narrator/Advertiser
Thank you so much again for tuning in. We'll see you next time on the Dr. Hyman Show. This podcast is separate from my clinical practice at the Ultra Wellness center, my work at Cleveland Clinic, and Function Health where I am Chief Medical Officer. This podcast represents my opinions and my guests opinions. Neither myself nor the podcast endorses the views or statements of my guests. This podcast is for educational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional care by a doctor or other qualified medical professional. This podcast is provided with the understanding that it does not constitute medical or other professional advice or services. If you're looking for help in your journey, please seek out a qualified medical practitioner. And if you're looking for a functional medicine practitioner, visit my clinic, the Ultra Wellness center at ultrawellnesscenter.com and request to become a patient. It's important to have someone in your corner who is a trained, licensed healthcare practitioner and can help you make changes, especially when it comes to your health. This podcast is free as part of my mission to bring practice practical ways of improving health to the public. So I'd like to express gratitude to sponsors that made today's podcast possible. Thanks so much again for listening.