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Why Vaccine Safety Is So Hard to Talk About — with Dr. Joel Warsh - The Dr. Hyman Show | Wave AI Podcast Notes

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Why Vaccine Safety Is So Hard to Talk About — with Dr. Joel Warsh

The Dr. Hyman Show

Wed May 21 2025

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Why Vaccine Safety Is So Hard to Talk About" — Featuring Dr. Joel Warsh

Episode Release Date: May 21, 2025

Introduction

In this compelling episode of The Dr. Hyman Show, host Dr. Mark Hyman engages in a profound and thought-provoking conversation with Dr. Joel Gator Warsh, a board-certified pediatrician specializing in parenting, vaccines, wellness, and integrated medicine. The duo delves into the complexities surrounding vaccine safety, the challenges of open dialogue in the medical community, and the urgent need for enhanced research and transparency.

Key Topics Discussed

The Necessity of Honest Conversations About Vaccines
- Dr. Warsh emphasizes the importance of acknowledging that vaccines, like any medical treatment, come with both benefits and risks. He states, “[v]accines are not allowed to be talked about as any other medical treatment which has benefits and it has risks” (00:02).
- The discussion pivots to the concept of informed consent, highlighting that patients deserve comprehensive information to make confident healthcare decisions.
Historical Context and Evolution of Vaccine Safety
- Dr. Warsh provides a historical overview of vaccine development, noting past issues such as the use of thimerosal—a mercury-based preservative—in vaccines. He points out that thimerosal is a known neurotoxin and questions why cumulative mercury exposure from vaccines wasn't considered earlier, stating, “it was about 162 times the amount of mercury that the EPA says is safe to have in a baby” (36:06).
- The conversation also touches on past vaccine-related controversies, including the swine flu vaccine and its association with Guillain-Barré Syndrome (16:49).
Current Vaccine Landscape and Pharmaceutical Influence
- Dr. Warsh critiques the current pharmaceutical framework, particularly the indemnification of vaccine manufacturers, which shields them from liability despite reported adverse effects. He asserts, “We indemnify the pharmaceutical manufacturers who make vaccines so that they can't be sued” (15:11).
- The influence of pharmaceutical companies on federal policies and medical curricula is discussed, raising concerns about potential conflicts of interest and the lack of independent research (17:05).
Trust in Medicine and Declining Vaccine Rates
- The episode underscores a significant decline in public trust towards medical institutions, with vaccine hesitancy on the rise. Dr. Warsh mentions, “Trust in medicine is at the lowest it's ever been. It was 70% before the pandemic. In many studies now it's around 40%” (12:27).
- The low vaccination rates, especially for COVID-19 vaccines among children and adults, are presented as indicators of this distrust (12:27).
The Need for Rigorous and Transparent Research
- Both hosts advocate for more comprehensive vaccine studies, including randomized controlled trials against inert placebos to establish baseline safety profiles. Dr. Warsh argues, “They should require them to have a third group that's also salt water” (27:03).
- The conversation highlights the absence of long-term studies tracking vaccinated versus unvaccinated populations over extended periods, which is crucial for understanding potential chronic effects (40:02).
Personalized Medicine and Vaccinomics
- The concept of vaccinomics—tailoring vaccine strategies based on individual genetic profiles—is introduced as a future direction for safer vaccination practices. Dr. Warsh states, “Each of us have different genetics, different immune systems” (00:30).
- The potential for personalized vaccine schedules to minimize adverse effects and enhance efficacy is discussed (37:55).
Ethical Considerations and Vaccine Mandates
- Ethical dilemmas surrounding vaccine mandates and the use of specific vaccine components, such as aborted fetal tissue and animal-derived ingredients, are explored. Dr. Warsh shares his experience meeting with federal officials to discuss thimerosal, highlighting the ongoing debates (35:58).
- The tension between public health objectives and individual choice is a recurrent theme, emphasizing the need for balanced policies that respect parental concerns (44:19).
Impact of Modern Lifestyle on Immune Health
- The hosts examine how contemporary factors like increased C-section rates, reduced breastfeeding, overuse of antibiotics, and environmental toxins may contribute to immune system dysregulation, potentially interacting with vaccine effects (46:14).
- Dr. Hyman and Dr. Warsh propose that these elements compromise immune health, making individuals more susceptible to adverse reactions from vaccines (48:00).
Case Studies and Anecdotal Evidence
- Dr. Warsh shares accounts of patients experiencing adverse reactions post-vaccination, such as severe heart issues and regressive autism, highlighting the emotional and medical challenges faced by concerned parents (50:23).
- The discussion underscores the importance of listening to these experiences to foster trust and improve vaccine protocols (50:37).
Future Directions and Recommendations
- Both professionals advocate for the establishment of new research agendas and commissions to address the identified gaps in vaccine safety data. They call for collaborative efforts between pro-vaccine and critical researchers to conduct balanced, comprehensive studies (60:38).
- The importance of maintaining open, evidence-based dialogues in advancing vaccine safety and public health is emphasized as essential for rebuilding trust (80:41).

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

Dr. Mark Hyman: “Vaccines. We're not allowed to talk about it as any other medical treatment which has benefits and it has risks.” (00:02)
Dr. Joel Warsh: “We need honesty. We need to have discussions. Not to stop people from vaccinating, not to stop vaccines, but to hold these companies liable in some way or to hold them accountable.” (00:08)
Dr. Warsh: “Informed consent... in medicine, there's such a set of dogmas... science is really about asking questions.” (10:16)
Dr. Hyman: “There's a thing we're supposed to do called informed consent, which is you lay out the risks and the benefits of any treatment.” (10:16)
Dr. Warsh: “The government's paying out all this money and acknowledging there's a problem, and on one hand, they're like, no, no problem. It's perfect.” (16:50)
Dr. Warsh: “They have all this pre-licensure testing, but it's very specific… they rigged the deck.” (25:50)
Dr. Warsh: “There's ligand integrity to a degree... they designed the settings to show the outcomes they want.” (25:32)
Dr. Warsh: “If you delay certain vaccines, then you decrease your risk of asthma, you decrease your risk of eczema.” (74:04)
Dr. Warsh: “It's a crisis. There's some studies that show that doctors... don't fully believe that vaccines are safe anymore. That's a huge crisis.” (82:18)

Conclusions and Insights

The episode serves as a critical examination of the current state of vaccine safety discourse. Dr. Hyman and Dr. Warsh collectively advocate for:

Enhanced Transparency: Openly discussing both the benefits and risks associated with vaccines to foster informed decision-making among parents and patients.
Comprehensive Research: Conducting long-term, placebo-controlled studies to establish a more robust safety profile for vaccines, particularly regarding their cumulative effects and interactions with individual genetic factors.
Rebuilding Trust: Addressing declining trust in medical institutions by encouraging honest dialogue, acknowledging past and present challenges, and prioritizing patient safety over pharmaceutical interests.
Personalized Medicine: Exploring the potential of vaccinomics to tailor vaccine schedules and formulations based on individual genetic and health profiles, thereby minimizing adverse effects and enhancing efficacy.
Ethical Considerations: Balancing public health mandates with individual choice and ethical concerns related to vaccine components and administration protocols.

Overall, the conversation underscores the complexity of vaccine safety debates and the imperative for the medical community to engage in open, evidence-based discussions to navigate these challenges effectively.

Additional Resources

Book Mentioned: Between a Shot and a Hard Place: Tackling Vaccine Questions with Balanced Data and Clarity by Dr. Joel Warsh. Available on Amazon.
Dr. Joel Warsh's Website: theshotbook.com
Dr. Joel Warsh's Social Media:
- Instagram: @Dr.JoelGator
- X (Formerly Twitter): @Dr.JoelGator

This summary is intended for informational purposes only and does not constitute medical advice. Always consult with a qualified healthcare provider for medical concerns.

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Transcript

Dr. Mark Hyman (0:00)

Coming up on this episode of the Dr. Hyman Show.

Dr. Joel Gator Warsh (0:02)

Vaccines. We're not allowed to talk about it as any other medical treatment which has benefits and it has risks.

Joel Warsh (0:08)

We need honesty. We need to have discussions. Not to stop people from vaccinating, not to stop vaccines, but to hold these companies liable in some way or to hold them accountable. Dr. Joel Wersch is a pediatrician and.

Dr. Joel Gator Warsh (0:19)

Opening up honest conversations around vaccines, helping.

Joel Warsh (0:22)

People make informed choices with confidence. Every single vaccine before it hits the market is studied against a placebo. The thing is, a lot of those placebos are not inert.

Dr. Joel Gator Warsh (0:30)

Not everybody is the same. Each of us have different genetics, different immune systems. At Mayo Clinic, they're looking at how different people respond to vaccines.

Joel Warsh (0:37)

Why do the kids that are living an unvaccinated lifestyle have a lower risk of autoimmune disease? Is it the food that they're eating? What is it about their lifestyle that's different?

Dr. Mark Hyman (0:48)

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Dr. Joel Gator Warsh (2:43)

Now, before we jump into today's episode, I'd like to note that while I wish I could help everyone by my personal practice, there's simply not enough time for me to do this at scale. And that's why I've been busy building several passion projects to help you better understand. Well, you if you're looking for data about your biology, check out Function Health for for Real Time Lab Insights. And if you're in need of deepening your knowledge around your health journey, check out my membership community, the Hyman Hive. And if you're looking for curated and trusted supplements and health products for your health journey, visit my website@drhyman.com for my website store for a summary of my favorite and thoroughly tested products. Welcome to the Dr. Hyman Show. I'm Dr. Mark Hyman. This is a place for conversations that matter and this one matters more than most. It's about vaccines and it's very controversial. It's very confusing for both parents and even doctors and scientists because when we have a topic like this that has been taboo to talk about, it's hard to get answers. And so I'm really excited for this podcast with Dr. Joel Gator Warsh, who's a board certified Pediatrician in Los Angeles, California. He specializes in parenting, vaccines, wellness, and integrated medicine. He's got a great Instagram @ Dr. Joel Gator. He gives great advice on there. He's he's the author of a new book on vaccines, Between a Shot and a Hard Place Tackling Vaccine Questions with Balanced Data and Clarity. Wow, that's refreshing. He's has a Master's degree in Epidemiology and Community health. He got his medical degree Thomas Jefferson and did his pediatricity at UC Children's Hospital Los Angeles. And he's works in Beverly Hills where he does incredible work to help guide parents on how to navigate a very confusing world. So I'm super excited to Have. Joel, we dive deep into all kinds of things in terms of what do we know, what do we don't know about vaccines. The common trope, which is that they're safe and effective is a problem because nothing in medicine is totally safe or totally effective, even an aspirin. We also dive into the history of vaccines. We dive into some of the questions around the controversies up now, why we need better science and just how to think about this and how do you apply this to your life? If you're a parent or thinking about having kids or grandkids, what do you do? So we talk everything about the problems with our pharmaceutical industry, the problems with our federal policies around science, some of the decline in trust in medicine, and then why more and more people are questioning vaccines, even though they do have a role. And we need to kind of have a dispassionate look at this. So get ready for a very deep and exciting conversation and let's dive in. Joel, welcome to the Dr. Hyman Show. I'm so excited about this conversation because it's a conversation that nobody is allowed to have, which is about vaccines.

Joel Warsh (18:37)

Exactly. And anybody that says anything about vaccines, you're crazy. You're a crackpot. You're vilified. Parent whose child has a reaction to a vaccine, or at least that they think had a reaction to a vaccine, they're vilified. They're called anti vaxx, which makes no sense. This is a parent who took their child to get a vaccine. They believed in vaccines and they had what they think is a reaction. And then they're vilified for being a crazy crackpot, tinfoil hat wearing individual and vilified for talking about it. And yes, sometimes it's correlation. Sometimes you could get a vaccine today, have a heart attack this afternoon and die. And that might have nothing to do with the vaccine, but certainly it's reasonable if that happens, that you should consider that it could be related. And just asking the question should not be something that we're unable to do. But it has seemed like that's the case for the last, certainly last few years, to the point where the censorship was so great that things were labeled as misinformation or taken down even when they were true. Mark Zuckerberg said it recently that the government was pressuring them to take down true information about vaccines because it would lead to hesitancy. And that's the opposite of what we need to be doing. That's not honest. We need honesty. We need to have discussions. Not to stop people from vaccinating, not to stop vaccines, but to hold these companies liable in some way or to hold them accountable. Right now we're seeing this back and forth between the pharmaceutical companies and government. They fund all the politicians, they fund the news, they fund everything. And they do it on purpose. It's not, you know, philanthropic. They know what they're doing. They are, you know, you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours. And that's what we're seeing. And it's to the point where doctors just don't even realize how much we're being fed a pharmaceutical curriculum. I mean, there's no the joke in the book. There's no why do we not trust Pharma 101 in med school? Right? It's here are the things that you should do. And they're funding the med school, they're funding the journals, they're funding the studies, they're doing the research. They know what they're doing. And that doesn't mean that the vaccine is unsafe or a medical product is unsafe. We need medicines, they're fantastic. We have a lot of amazing medications and things that are fantastic. But who is watching over the pharmaceutical companies? Who is pushing back? Who is making sure they're safer tomorrow than they are today? And who is doing the research to look at things that they don't do? They look at the products before they go on the market. They're not going to look at their products again to find problems with them. If You're a CEO of a company, you're not funding a study to say, hey, let me check my medication again to see if it's causing allergies. Let me see if it's causing asthma five years from now. Why would they do that? Who was doing that? Nobody's doing it.

Joel Warsh (21:43)

You certainly can't do it anymore. I mean, you're almost everybody who does it study on vaccines, if they show any sort of problem, they get vilified. And so I think there's this huge incentive or disincentive to even do research on vaccines. People just don't, we just don't see a lot of it these days. I mean, there certainly is a little bit, but most of what you see is individuals who are very pro vaccine doing pro vaccine studies looking for an outcome that's funded by a pharmaceutical agency in the first place. And so that is what we're seeing. And you can't say that we don't ever have problems with vaccines. We took the original DTP off the market because it could theoretically causing a lot of encephalitis and neurologic issues. We took a rotavirus vaccine off the market because it was causing a deception. That's what we should be thinking about. Not that we don't want the rotavirus vaccine, but hey, is there an issue with the vaccine that we have now? Maybe we can figure out why that we have that issue and make it better, wouldn't we want to do that? Doctors don't want to harm patients. No, doctors are good people. And if there was good research and good studies to say, hey, this ingredient in vaccines is increasing your risk for asthma, or this, this ingredient or this combination of vaccines increases your risk for eczema. Doctors would want to know that. We'd want to look at the schedule, adjust the schedule and figure out how do we provide the most benefit from vaccines while minimizing the risk. While there isn't a lot of research out there on long term vaccination risks. There is some. And if you look at a very pro science book, they just say, oh, vaccines have nothing to do with allergies, vaccines have nothing to do with eczema. There is no research on that. But if you look at a different book, you look at Neil Miller's book or something like that, there are good studies out there that, that show that there are some connections potentially between eczema and vaccines. There are some connections between allergies and autoimmune conditions. And the majority of research still says that there isn't. But there certainly is some. There certainly are some good studies that show that there might be some relation or if you change up the schedule a little bit or you delay things a little bit, that you can see a difference. And that's the kind of research we should have more of. There's nothing controversial with saying, hey, let's study the schedule that we have. Maybe we can try some alternate schedules, see if some of these rates go down. If they don't, great. That's the research that parents want.

Dr. Mark Hyman (33:13)

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Joel Warsh (40:02)

Right. Because we don't know anybody that says the science is settled on long term issues. How can you say that? Where is the research for that? Who is following kids for five or 10 years? How do we have any idea? I mean, you talked about vaers before the adverse reporting that we have. But that's personal report. You do it, the company does it, the doctor does it if they decide to do it. But you have to associate the issue with a vaccine. If you get hepatitis B vaccine today and you get some sort of cancer. Ten years from now, you're not going to be thinking, oh, well, my kid probably got cancer because of the vaccine they got when they were two months old, so let me go report that to theirs. There's no way to see those things unless you follow kids prospectively. You follow them for 10 or 15 or 20 years and you say, hey, how come the kids that are getting more vaccines have more of this kind of cancer? How come those kids have more asthma or allergies? You don't know that unless you follow it prospectively. People can do research on that topic, but nobody wants to do research on vaccines. You have to follow people for a long time. You'd have to have that association in mind beforehand and have 10 years of time to follow those kids. It hasn't been done, but we could do it. We could do something like the framing hand study. We can start following kids for 10 or 15 years. Yes, the ethics are difficult around it, but you can certainly have people self select which group they're going to be in. There are plenty of people that are going to choose not to vaccinate. It's not going to be the perfect study because there's going to be some bias there, but at least you can get some good information. Wouldn't it be really useful to know 10 years from now that the kids that live an unvaccinated lifestyle have a lower rate of asthma than the kids that get vaccines? And then you can say, okay, autoimmune disease or autism. Autism or whatever comes up, all the A's? Yeah. Then you say, well, why, why do the kids that are living an unvaccinated lifestyle have a lower risk of autoimmune disease? Is it the food that they're eating? What is it about their lifestyle that's different? There's nothing wrong with that. That would be super useful information. And if, if we found that there are no differences, that is the information that parents want that will make them be more confident to get vaccines. That's what they want. And if we have that research and we show those things, then you're going to improve confidence in the vaccine program. And if you do find problems, you're going to improve the confidence because you're going to fix those problems.

Joel Warsh (48:43)

And we did, but there were still lots of chickenpox around, right? And then the vaccine came out, and then we don't see chickenpox almost at all anymore. So you can't say that the vaccines don't do anything. I mean, you can see that they clearly drop the morbidity. And some kids from chickenpox, I hear it too, from parents, where it's like, oh, chickenpox, I had it, it was nothing. But when you have an entire population of kids getting chickenpox and millions of people, some kids get a really bad infection, it puts them in the hospital. Some kids get a meningitis, some kids get a pneumonia. So things do happen at a population level. There is some benefit, certainly from public health initiatives, and that's where the vaccines certainly come into play, to say that our health is better because of vaccines, or that's the thing that's doing it. I think that's an overstatement. I think it's a problem. Part of everything that we've done that has brought us to where we are today. We certainly are better than we used to be in terms of our health. We used to live till 40, we lived till our 70s. Now that's good. So not all of medicine is bad, but we're seeing our life expectancy go back down. We're seeing chronic disease rates skyrocket, and we need a little humility in medicine to say, hey, maybe some of the things we've done in the last 20 or 30 years aren't all the best. Maybe we're not doing everything perfectly, and maybe there's some sort of Middle ground here that can get our life expectancy to 90 or 100 or 120. And maybe all the toxins that we're being exposed to in the chemicals that we're being exposed to and the food that we're eating, that's not the best anymore. And most kids are eating just mostly ultra processed foods. Maybe that has something to do with what we're seeing. And maybe, just maybe, vaccines have some part in that for some kids. Maybe there's a certain genetics where it throws you over the edge. Or maybe for kids that are already so depleted, don't have the right nutrients, have a toxic load, it throws them over the edge.

Joel Warsh (64:25)

It wouldn't pass ethical view. And there is still an ongoing debate about religious freedom and religious exemptions with vaccines and whether, you know, the use of aborted tissue should be considered in that. As of right now, all religions technically state that you can get vaccines. And there's nothing that's problematic about it. But when you look at the way that things were done originally and using aborted fetal tissue, then it does at least bring up that discussion. And I think that whether your church says that it's okay to get vaccines, that you still might personally feel like that's unethical to you. And I just thought that was interesting because I never considered any of that before. I mean, I really didn't even know that abortive fetal tissue was in there until you start learning about vaccines. I mean, these are just things that they're not aborting fetuses now. They're using old, old aborted fetal tissue. But it just brings into question when, when people are called anti vax kooks. Well, maybe they have a reason why they're, they're concerned or maybe they're, they're vegan and they don't want to inject something that has pork, you know, pork products in there, which gelatin does. I mean, they're, they're taken from, from, from pigs. So some of the vaccines have that in there. So these are just things that as someone who's open minded, doesn't mean you shouldn't do it. But I think it's reasonable if you understand those reasons why somebody might be hesitant, that can help build bridges. And I think we need to build bridges as an understanding to why people might be more hesitant that we give them credit for as opposed to Calling them some sort of crazy, crazy mom, crazy dad, they're crazy anti vaxxer. Well, maybe they have personal beliefs that are different than mine and not everyone has to have the same beliefs or the same understanding of everything. So that was really interesting. Long term studies that we don't have any, we really don't have any vaccinated versus unvaccinated trials. That's crazy to me. And autism research, I mean it's interesting.

Joel Warsh (77:34)

There's two sides to that question. The first part of that would say, and this is what the general consensus is, we want to give the vaccines early because you get the protection and you want to protect before you get the disease. So that's the general body of science. The concern around giving vaccines early is, like you said, the immune system system is developing, the baby's developing, they're still small. So any sort of toxic load or any chemicals or any sort of stimulation is going to most likely have more of effect on them than it would for an adult or somebody older. And so that's the concern. There certainly are some studies that say if you delay certain vaccines, then you decrease your risk of asthma, you decrease your risk of eczema. I mean, these studies exist. They're not the majority, but they're out there. And there are some actually very good studies and good journals that show this. So it's not an unreasonable hypothesis to have. And again, it goes back to the research we should be getting. We should be asking, hey, if we move the hepatitis B vaccine back, does that decrease your risk of anything? I mean, just in basic common sense, if you give a vaccine to anybody, the biggest risk you have is having a fever, right? Having a fever, not feeling good. If a baby in the first week gets a fever, what happens? Right? If you give a hepatitis B vaccine and they have a normal side effect from a vaccine of getting a fever, what happens to a baby? They're going to the hospital, they're getting a lumbar puncture, they're getting a full workup, they're being exposed to all these potential diseases in the hospital that maybe they got that fever just from the reaction from the vaccine. But we don't know that in a newborn baby. So we're going to do the full workup anyways because we want to protect them, but we don't talk about that. Risk versus benefit. Do those babies need that risk? They need the risk to go to the hospital. They need the risk to get the fever. Could they wait till 2 months old or 4 months old and take away that risk? I mean, those are the questions that smart people need to have. They need to sit on stage, they need to debate. They need to go to Harvard and Hopkins and on tv on full cameras, sit there and debate these questions. They need to talk about that. They need to talk about all of these ethics so people can watch it and say, well, maybe you're right. Maybe we should rethink our hepatitis B. Or maybe somebody smarter than me is gonna say, no, no, no, here's why we do it. Here's what the reason is, here's why the risks, the benefits outweigh the risks. And I'll say, okay, well, that makes sense, you know, like, that's what we need. But we can't shut down the discussion, which is what's happened for the last decade. How are we going to move forward unless we can have these conversations? And it has to be someone who's pro versus someone who's anti. Whatever labels you want, somebody who is. Who knows this research and understands it really well and can debate and discuss it publicly. So that way we can. I don't have any skin in the game. Whatever the research is is fine by me. I want kids to be the healthiest.