← The Dr. John Delony Show
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- [00:06]
Caller
Hey, if I go really hard in my career in one season, then I look up and I haven't talked to my friends in months or I feel pretty disconnected in my marriage. And then if I switch gears to really focusing on my marriage, then it feels like my ability to be as proactive and creative in my work life or in my friendships, that tends to suffer, my friend.
- [00:22]
Dr. John DeLoney
How long have you been performing?
- [00:29]
John
What up?
- [00:30]
Dr. John DeLoney
What's going on, John, with the Dr. John DeLoney Show, Man, I'm so glad that you are with us talking about your emotional and mental health, your relationships. Just there's hurting people going through a lot right now and this shows is dedicated to you guys sitting down with hurting people, trying to figure out what's the next right move. Not even hurting people, confused people, stuck people, frustrated people. Whatever you got going on in your life, that's my promise. I'll sit with you and we will figure out what's the next right move. You want to be on the show? Give me a buzz at 1-844-693-3291 or go to john deloney.com ask and before you just keep hitting the little 15 second skip, skip, skip. Listen, please, please, please subscribe. On the YouTube channel, we're so close to crossing that million mark. Hit the subscribe button. It'll take you like two seconds. And it really helps us out in a number of ways. All right, let's roll out to Atlanta to the ATL and talk to Elizabeth. What's up, Elizabeth?
- [01:28]
Caller
So here's what I'm trying to figure out. I'm trying to figure out how to balance building a good marriage while also building meaningful friendships and relationships outside of my marriage. I really struggle to strike a balance, if that's even possible. And so I'm wondering if we can dig into that.
- [01:46]
Dr. John DeLoney
Well, balance is insane. So trying to achieve that is like a, is like a myth. It's like trying to catch a dragon. It's like not real. But I don't see these two things that you laid out as opposites. I see them as, as recursive. They work together. So tell me what you're struggling with on either side of the equation.
- [02:07]
Caller
Yeah, I think where I, what I'm struggling with is I feel like I'm always feeling guilty, like whichever direction I go. So it's, and if I throw work in there too, it's really like trying to sort out, okay, if I go really hard in my career in one season, then I look up and I haven't talked to my friends in months or I feel pretty disconnected in my marriage. And then if I switch gears to really focusing on my marriage, then it feels like my ability to be as proactive and creative in my work life or my friendships, that tends to suffer. And so it just. I feel like I'm always spinning, trying to, I don't know, organize my calendar and my weeks in such a way that everything is getting the right amount of time that doesn't even include time for, like, me and myself. And I think what I tend to bump into is feeling like I'm not showing up to anything as much as I should be because my energy is split. Or if I'm really focused on something, I tend to feel a lot of guilt or sadness or like I'm failing and giving attention to the other things that also matter. And so I don't know if that's adding any clarity to it, but that's. Those are some of the feelings that come up as I'm trying to hold all these different parts of my life.
- [03:18]
Dr. John DeLoney
Dude, my friend, how long have you been performing?
- [03:24]
Elizabeth
Oh, wow.
- [03:29]
Dr. John DeLoney
You are living everyone else's life across multiple fronts. I don't even know what it would be like for you to actually access what you really want. I think that might be a scary proposition for you. What do you think? How long have you been singing and dancing for people to say that you're okay?
- [03:55]
Caller
A long time probably. I mean, at least since I was a girl, so. A long time.
- [04:00]
Dr. John DeLoney
Yeah, tell me about it.
- [04:05]
Caller
Yeah, I guess I grew up in a home that felt pretty chaotic. A lot of love and a lot of chaos. And I think. I think being excellent and doing well at things is kind of how I stood out and carved out a place for myself not only in my family, but also in school. It was like if I distinctly remember being younger and experiencing some bullying and thinking, well, I'll show you, like, I'll be the best, and then I won't. It won't matter, you know, that you're making fun of me about this or whatever. So I'd say it's been. It's been a part of my life for a while.
- [04:43]
Dr. John DeLoney
That's so freaking exhausting because you just end up playing relational whack a mole, and nobody ever turns and asks you how you're doing or what do you actually need? Or more importantly, what do you want? So I guess what I tell you is having great friendships, AIDS and supports and makes tills the soil for an incredible marriage and being anchored in with good friends and having a rock Solid marriage anchors you in to allow you to go swan dive into your work. And being excellent at your work allows you to come home and celebrate and grieve when you don't do well and celebrate when you do well. And it provides the foundation for you to build a house on with food. Right. And, and, and, and capital, like support. So all these things work together. They don't work to. They work together. If you are actively creating the life that you and your husband want to live, they are at war with each other. If you're trying to make your friends happy, you're trying to make your boss happy, and you're trying to make some idealized version of your dad, by the way, he's never going to call you that call that finally he's pro. That call will never come because it hasn't already. And you're trying to like, keep your husband happy. Right. And you're, you're, you're not burning the candle at both ends. You just set yourself on fire and covered yourself in wax. You are the candle. What, what, what precipitated this call?
- [06:29]
Caller
I came off of pretty much many, many months of traveling a lot for work and had, I think was an anxiety attack coming off of all of that and kind of looked up and realized like, oh, I'm pretty isolated and disconnected. Not as much from my husband because I see him every day, but also still from him.
- [06:55]
Dr. John DeLoney
Sister. I've been, I have been dreadfully lonely. Sharing a bed with a woman that I know loves me.
- [07:02]
Caller
Yeah.
- [07:02]
Dr. John DeLoney
Dreadfully lonely.
- [07:04]
Caller
Yeah. Yeah. And so it's like I woke up, I was like, oh, I feel really disconnected. So that was around the time when I called. And since, like, I did call, like, I've been trying to be more intentional. Like, okay, let me actually go see my friends and tell them that I'm not okay because I haven't even opened up that part of my life for them because I had just been like, coming home, going to the airport, coming home, going to the airport. And so that I was holding all that, and that's why I called.
- [07:29]
Dr. John DeLoney
How old are you?
- [07:32]
Caller
34.
- [07:32]
Dr. John DeLoney
You have little ones?
- [07:34]
Caller
No.
- [07:35]
Dr. John DeLoney
Do you want kids or no.
- [07:36]
Caller
Yes.
- [07:37]
Dr. John DeLoney
Yes. Tell me about that journey.
- [07:42]
Caller
Oh, gosh, that's a great question. My husband and I had. Haven't been on the same page about it for a few years. I think we're getting to be on the same page about it.
- [07:52]
Dr. John DeLoney
What does that mean, wearing them down?
- [07:54]
Caller
Oh, no, no. Thankfully I tried that and that was not successful. So, no, it's been a Lot of addressing, like, the root issues in our relationship that created that disconnect in general. So it's been a. We've been working on that really hard, and I do feel much better. Okay. But that's where we're at in that journey.
- [08:12]
Dr. John DeLoney
What's the plan?
- [08:15]
Caller
What's the plan? Oh, that's really specific. I. We don't have a specific plan in place.
- [08:22]
Dr. John DeLoney
I guess you've got to get one. And here's why. You're drowning in a sea of ambiguity. You always have been. Tell me if I'm wrong here. My guess is you're a good kid and your house was chaotic, and this will probably ring true to you in some shape, form, or fashion. I don't know about the word trauma because it's kind of overdramatic, but I remember one of my. One of my professors told me that straight A's can be a trauma response, too. That just because a kid is getting straight A's doesn't mean everything's going great. Sometimes it is their way that they keep their head above water so that some adults somewhere will see them and say, good job, or at. At worst, won't hit them. Right. Or we'll ignore them and keep them a little bit safer. But like you mentioned, grades are a way for a kid without humongous muscles to bully other kids. I'll show you that I'm better than you. But all of that is a kid that's untethered, meaning doesn't know where the next secure attachment, the next secure sense of I'm loved and I have value and I have worth is coming from. And those folks grow up to be adults and they start trying to clamor and get it everywhere. Do I get a certificate at work? And that feeling lasts as long as the certificate ceremony or the mass email that goes out to everybody, or the raise. In fact, the raise doesn't even matter. It's the conversation on your annual review with your boss that says, hey, I'm giving you a 4.2% raise when the average was 3. And I see. I see the work that you're doing. You did a good job or your bonus is a little bit high, right? It. It. It. The feeling is gone before the deposit even hits your checking account. And then your husband, you want to make him happy, but also there's this frustration in your friends. You all want to go do things, but I'm tired, but I'm. It's this. It's this. I don't know how to win in this environment. Relationally, because I'm trying to solve this internal gaping hole externally, and there's no specifics. And you're going to wake up and be 39 years old, and you'll realize, I've lived somebody else's life. And that's when people wake up and burn everything to the ground. Meaning. And. And that's when they respond to the text from that really attractive, hilarious co worker for the first time. That's when they just snap at their spouse who's just putting along, or your sister or one of your girlfriends has a third kid and you just snap.
- [10:51]
Elizabeth
Yeah.
- [10:51]
Dr. John DeLoney
Because you wake up and you're living somebody else's freaking life and you're trying to manage everybody else instead of just asking yourself, what do I want and what must be true? Does that ring up? Does any of this ring a bell?
- [11:05]
Caller
Yeah, it all rings a bell.
- [11:07]
Dr. John DeLoney
Okay.
- [11:08]
Elizabeth
Yeah.
- [11:10]
Dr. John DeLoney
So I guess. I guess what I would tell you is like, you build a meaningful marriage. To me, of all the things that you mentioned, that's the most important thing. And I know it's kind of countercultural, but you both looked at each other and said, I do. And if you have. If the pillars that that relationship is is built on, if those are crumbling or if they've been removed or they were never there or you think they're stronger or whatever, that has to be addressed before any of the other stuff. Because you can make a million bucks. And if your marriage isn't good, the research tells me your life will suck.
- [11:46]
Elizabeth
Yeah.
- [11:47]
Dr. John DeLoney
And you can have the greatest friends in the world, but if you go home and you're not safe when you sleep in your own bed, your body will never let you sleep.
- [11:54]
Caller
Mm.
- [11:55]
Dr. John DeLoney
That makes sense.
- [11:56]
Caller
Yeah. Yeah, it does.
- [11:58]
Dr. John DeLoney
So how's your marriage? For real?
- [12:00]
Caller
Yeah.
- [12:01]
Dr. John DeLoney
It's not why you called. How is it?
- [12:03]
Caller
Yeah, it's been really hard.
- [12:06]
Dr. John DeLoney
Tell me about it.
- [12:08]
Caller
Yeah, we. Golly, it's like. Where to start? It can be like a saga. But I'd say we've been married eight years. The probably first one was a lot of fun. Probably two through, it'll be eight years in April, I should say. I would say year two through maybe a year ago. Things were really, really tough. Just lots of really bad communication, poor conflict resolution, really, at least for myself. Had a really hard time asking for what I needed. Him asking for what he needed. So it's just sometimes you look at each other and we're like, oh, if we'd have the skills we have now six years ago, we'd probably have a Different relationship.
- [12:50]
Dr. John DeLoney
Oh, dude. I think that every three years. Every three years I'm like, oh, my gosh, if I had known this. Right? So, yeah, you're not craz. Yeah. You're not crazy.
- [12:57]
Caller
Yeah. So, I mean, it's like, it hasn't been, like, one thing. It's been like, a lot of things and poor tools to navigate all of those things. And so earlier this year, we had, like, a test separation of sorts, and then we came back together without a real plan. Then we're like, oh, we need a plan. And so we've been building an actual plan. I've learned a lot from you. And he and I have watched my videos together and things. And I feel like we're. Things feel so much better than they used to that I can't in good faith say, like, oh, things are still really bad, because they're not. Like, I feel like we talk about everything. We have our weekly marriage meetings. Like, we are doing things we know we're supposed to do to, like, get on the same page. And based on those meetings, we are both feeling more connected and being more intentional. So things seem to me to be on a healing trajectory, but they're still pain. Of course, when I look back on a lot of the disconnection we've experienced.
- [13:52]
Dr. John DeLoney
Are there still secrets?
- [13:55]
Caller
I'm not on my side. I don't think he has any, but I would. He'd have to answer that.
- [14:00]
Dr. John DeLoney
Okay, you don't think so or you don't. You. You know, so.
- [14:07]
Caller
I want to say, like, 90%. I know so.
- [14:10]
Dr. John DeLoney
Okay. I would start there because I want you to be able to jump up and down on the stability of this marriage, because now y'all have. If there's no other secrets, there's nothing else out there for you to find. And it's weird if you've let stuff slide for seven years or if you've kind of been looked the other way for seven years or it's been fine for eight years, like, whatever. But that's the stuff that emerges in year 7 to 10 of a marriage that becomes these deal breakers. And the work y'all have done the last year. I am high fiving you, sister. That is so rad that y'all have done that. And now I think you've, like, you've patched the. The. The holes in the boat so it's not sinking anymore.
- [14:58]
Elizabeth
Right.
- [14:59]
Dr. John DeLoney
And now you'll have to decide if y'all gonna build a new boat, because this one's not going to take you that much further. We all build a new boat together. And that just starts with no secrets. Lay it all out. Here's all of me. Do you still love me? Does that make sense?
- [15:13]
Caller
Yeah, it does.
- [15:14]
Elizabeth
Yeah, it does.
- [15:15]
Dr. John DeLoney
So when it comes to balance, balance is a myth. But deep enriching relationships enrich every part of your life. But it comes with you believing. I'm not on a stage for everybody. Me and my husband have decided we're going to co create a world together. Our friends will be a part of that. Some of them won't make that cut, some of them will. Our jobs will interweave through that. But we're going to create this world together.
- [15:42]
Elizabeth
Yeah.
- [15:44]
Dr. John DeLoney
And then the pressure of having to balance everything, you just get off the little Amazon, you know that little half ball thing, the little balance stand that you people at stand up desk do at work when they're listening to their Enya and their essential oils or whatever they're doing. You know what I'm talking about? Those little balance ball things. Yeah. You just get off that and you stand on the ground. Does that make sense?
- [16:08]
Caller
Yeah, it does.
- [16:09]
Dr. John DeLoney
From this point forward, whenever you feel like you're trying to balance something, just con. Just close your eyes and consciously step off that little balancey thing. I'm not doing that. I'm not balancing. What's the next right move for me and my husband, for me and my family?
- [16:21]
Elizabeth
Yeah.
- [16:22]
Dr. John DeLoney
And that almost always, except in moments of safety, begins with truth. I'm gonna tell you the truth. So, gosh, I'm trying to think of where to hang on the line here. I'm going to send you a copy of Building a non anxious Life and I want you and your husband to use that as a roadmap for what comes next. And the first step there of building an unanxious life. The first, you know, the first, first step in the path is choosing reality. And there's a series of questions in the back of that first chapter that are like, all right, here we are. What's true and use that as truth. And I'm going to send you a copy of Questions for Humans Intimacy deck and the Questions for Humans Couples. And I want you all just to begin learning and this is going to sound crazy, enjoying each other again, becoming friends again. Y'all are doing the meetings, y'all are, y'all are fixing stuff. I want y'all to remember being friends together and then talk about, hey, I want to go hang out with my friends. Good. Thank God. I want to watch this stupid show. Hey, I don't like going to comedy clubs with you. I'd rather go to a jazz club. Can you go with your friends? Yes. Okay. Awesome. And we'll begin to build that life. I don't like traveling so much. Maybe we're looking for a new job or I want to have a baby right now. And our conversations and I'm not ready. I'm done with that conversation. I'm ready for this now. And we can start seeing what we want. Put that on the table. Hey, everybody, listen to this. Helix, the makers of the best mattresses in the universe, are having an end of year sale. And it's going on right here. Now. I've tried so many different mattresses over the years, and I have finally found my sleeping home with Helix. Sleeping on my Helix mattress has transformed my sleep. I'm getting into new levels of deep, refreshing sleep. And I've said this all the time. Every single one of my immediate family members sleeps on a Helix mattress now. And now my extended family's all wanting in on it, too. And like all of you, my family's all different. And because everyone sleeps in their own unique way, Helix has created different mattress models designed for side sleepers and stomach sleepers and back sleepers for everyone. And if your back hurts during the day and your spine needs a little extra TLC while you're sleeping, Helix has mattresses for you, too. Helix offers a 100 night trial and all helix mattresses come with either a 10 or 15 year warranty. I want you to get online and take the Helix sleep quiz just like I did, and it will help you find the perfect mattress in under two minutes. And here's the best part. Helix has an end of year sale going on right now. 25% off all mattress orders plus a free bedding bundle. Go to helix sleep.com DeLoney for details. And to save 25%, that's Helix H L I X helix sleep.com DeLoney with Helix. Better Sleep starts right now. This show is sponsored by Better Help. This time of year, it's cold, it's dark, and most of us just want to stay inside and try to get cozy on the rare nights when everyone is home. At my house, I love to spend cozy nights in with my immediate family. We all get under some blankets, sit around the fire, and we either read some books out loud or we watch a movie together. We laugh, annoy each other, and we all settle in. But often during the holidays, my family is scattered all around. They're traveling, we're working, or otherwise separated from each other. And I find myself alone, bummed out and sometimes wishing I was somewhere else. Millions of you know this feeling of being bummed out, lonely, especially around the holidays. You're battling loneliness and grief and you wish that your life was different. If this sounds like you, I encourage you to reach out to a therapist today. Therapy can be a safe place to settle in and work through those emotions, replenish your energy and take care of yourself. I recommend better help to help you find comfort during the chaos and stress and loneliness that can be attached to the holidays. BetterHelp is 100% online therapy and you can talk with your therapist when it works for your schedule. You just get online and fill out a short survey to get matched with a licensed therapist and you can switch therapists at any time for no extra cost. Find comfort in this season with better help. Visit betterhelp.com DeLoney to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp. HP.com DeLoney all right, let's roll out to Manitoba, Canada and talk to Big D. What's up David?
- [20:51]
John
So can you use some background? I met my wife in June of 21, got married of January 2023. So we're almost at our two year anniversary. And before I met my wife I was a pretty rabid alcoholic gambling addict and I was clean for about two years prior to meeting her. So when I met her, you know, she would drink, I would use cannabis, no issue. But I started telling her more about, you know, like recovery, watching intervention, stuff like that. I like shows like that. She was like, oh wow, like, you know, you shouldn't be using anything. And I'm sitting there thinking, okay, well and I went to rehab back in 2018 and meet a lot of people that say I don't know what your thoughts are, but basically if they're not as you shouldn't be doing anything at all, you should be totally sober. And I would say 9% of people I've met or healthcare professionals agree with that. I'm almost six years sober in those two issues in February and now my wife saw my case quite a bit. You know, she just thinks I shouldn't be anything. It's like playing, taking a big risk and it's starting to annoy me and cause a little bit of issues. I was kind of curious to get your feedback on that. Everything else is great. It's just this one little issue that it's kind of causing bigger issues.
- [21:59]
Dr. John DeLoney
How much of her, to use your words, being on your case is about weed and how much of it is she loses her husband or her husband checks out.
- [22:17]
John
Well, I guess that's fair. It says like I'm not present. I guess something she has said, right, which is fair. And I guess here in Canada, like we do have it legalized. That's something. I used to be honest with you, a crush. When I quit drinking back in 2019, they just legalized it.
- [22:33]
Dr. John DeLoney
Well, so. So yeah, that's fair.
- [22:35]
John
That's a fair point for sure.
- [22:37]
Dr. John DeLoney
Two, two things are important about the reason most people say if you're going to be sober, you got to be sober from everything. One reason is I've got a couple of friends. If they have one beer, they will be disappear on a three day coke bender. Because it just hits a domino that they. It just one beer turns into six beers, turns into who's got cocaine? Turns into where's so and so. Right. So that's one that, that all these things are dominoes. So I gotta stop everything. I can't drink a glass of wine. I'm not gonna touch champagne. I can't go into that world, period. The other reason most people will say you have to abstain, you have to live a life that is sober, is otherwise you just trade one addiction for another, for another, for another. And so my question to you, just like as a buddy, just as a guy sitting across the table having nachos is like, all right, gambling helps you feel alive in your own skin. Alcohol helps you not feel pain in your own skin. What is weed giving you? If your wife uses the words not present checks out, then there's something about you being in your own skin that you don't like. What is that?
- [23:58]
John
I don't know, to be honest with you. Like, I'm in the military here in Canada and you know, it's the only thing I can really do, you know, maybe if I wasn't, I know be honest with you. Like, I'm just saying, like I feel like that's something that I could got my hands on that's not getting in trouble with work. So I do it. But also too like, it's probably a bad answer, but you know, my wife's having a few drinks on a Friday night and I want to, you know, smoke up a bit. I really don't see the issue there because I don't mind that she drinks. That's not a factor at all. Like long silver. But that's something that really, I guess doing the past, the time that I kind of feel like she's partaking and I should be Able to as well, I guess, would be how I feel about that.
- [24:33]
Dr. John DeLoney
Yeah, I guess. I guess the scorekeeping is going to be a relational. Some relational baggage, man. It's just gonna be hard to overcome. I should be able to. I get to. Man, if you. If you struggle with alcohol, man, you just don't get to anymore. My understanding, which is limited to what some of you guys in the Canadian military are experiencing, is very, very challenging. Is that fair?
- [24:58]
John
Yeah, I'd say that's fair.
- [24:59]
Dr. John DeLoney
Okay. A. Just from a personal standpoint, I'd love to see you get to the root of that or to come up with some strategy. And if it ends up just being that, then it just ends up being that. Right. I'm not in your shoes, and I'm not gonna. I'm not gonna throw grenades at you. But there's something that's underlying that. The bigger thing is, is it sounds to me without talking to your wife, that in her, she's able to point at the weed, she's able to point it at legal cannabis. But it sounds like what she's telling you is, I miss you, and you go away. My wife tells me the same thing because I'm a workaholic. And she'll use the same words your wife does, which is, you're not present. You're sitting at our kitchen table, and your head's a thousand miles away from here. And I have no.
- [25:55]
John
That's something I can consider for sure. Yeah.
- [25:56]
Dr. John DeLoney
I have to consciously, like, have a ritual to leave work at work. I have to say no to money. I have to say no to projects. Because my wife is saying, I miss you. You're not here. Your kids miss you, your family, the life. Your life is missing you. And so if I have a job that I have to do and I have to medicate my regular life outside of my work so that I can get through it. Man, I really would love to get to the bottom of that.
- [26:29]
John
That's a really good point. And the funny thing is we're both actually retiring in a couple of months, kind of forced out on medical. So we're gonna have, like, work won't be a thing there anymore. We're gonna kind of have the ability to travel and do whatever we want. And maybe this might just be the, you know, the attic of me talking, but I feel like as soon as I have that, you know, kind of out of a crazy vote. I know I say that, but I'm saying, like, right now, that's how it. How it feels to me.
- [26:52]
Dr. John DeLoney
Sure.
- [26:52]
John
When I have that ability. I'm not really going to have that need anymore. So I kind of. That's kind of the way I'm looking at. I got a couple more months, but then it's still obviously causing a bit of tension.
- [27:00]
Dr. John DeLoney
Did you not drink before you got in the military?
- [27:03]
John
No, no, I drank. I joined at 17, so it's kind of hard to. To tell you, you know, so I've been doing the military for 18 years now. It's all I've done.
- [27:10]
Dr. John DeLoney
Okay. It's all, you know, military.
- [27:11]
John
You really get to. To build, build, build, you know, and become the alcoholic and military. No problem. The gambling thing kind of cycled with me from when taking my first step. Within a year I was in rehab. Like, that hit me like a. Like a truck. So. Yeah. And the funny thing is, without ever developing the gambling addiction, I would still be drinking today because, I don't know, I never felt like I had a problem with alcohol, which is strange to say, but looking back, I'm like, holy.
- [27:33]
Dr. John DeLoney
Yeah.
- [27:34]
John
Well, gambling, you know, you win and lose $100,000 a day. You realize you have a problem pretty quick.
- [27:39]
Dr. John DeLoney
Yeah, absolutely. Well. And so I don't want to overgeneralize here, but the people I've spent time with, who are both veterans and the people who I've spent time in the recovery community, which is a bunch on both sides of those. And you happen to fit in both of those camps. If I was to distill down one central challenge they both have, that is the ability to believe that somebody else would love them just for them, not for what utility they provide. And I'm wondering if your wife is looking at the man that she loves. And she said, I ride or die till the end of time. I will be by your side. After six years. I'm A, I'm. I miss you, and B, I'm losing you.
- [28:33]
John
No, no, that's fair. There's probably something else I should mention. It's going to make me sound like not a great dude, but when she brings this up to me, I kind of just default and say, well, you know what? You can just leave your. So not. I know it's wrong. Know it's. You know, especially if my wife tells me she feels she's abandonment issues in the past and, you know, her childhood. And I know that's like the worst thing I can say, but I'm like, holy. Just like kind of what you're saying. If you're not going to take me for me, then what do you. Which I Know is a horrible thing to say. Like, I'm not.
- [28:57]
Dr. John DeLoney
No, no. She's. She's trying to take you for you. And you keep, you keep trying to talk to her through a, A green haze.
- [29:06]
John
Yeah, yeah, sure.
- [29:07]
Dr. John DeLoney
She's trying to come get you. That weed is not you. That weed is you protecting yourself. And you lashing out at that woman is not. That's, that's you trying to protect yourself.
- [29:21]
John
Yeah, yeah. And I'm just. It's funny because you can come up with anything to rationalize and be like, well, at least you didn't know anyone I used to drink. Or at least when I used to drink, you know.
- [29:27]
Dr. John DeLoney
But you know that as well as I do. That's stupid. You know that. Yeah.
- [29:31]
John
Oh, no, no, no. It's true. No, I do.
- [29:35]
Dr. John DeLoney
Here's. If you, if you were, if you were my buddy here in town, you know, I tell you to do. Use the last six months in the armed forces to have to do recovery on their dime and just try, and you'll probably find yourself, like, going back.
- [29:50]
John
To, like, a facility or do you mean just like, in terms of resources?
- [29:54]
Dr. John DeLoney
I don't know what resources they have. I don't know. Oh, I don't know resources in Canadian military. But if they've got meetings, if they got places you can go. Here's what I'd love you to try. I would love you to try to get sober, Stone sober, with the resources and the structure that the military is going to provide you. Because you're telling yourself a story that's not true, which is once you are free from this structure that then things will you, you're going to unspool rapidly. And so unless you have a very systematic transition plan that very few veterans have, if you're just waiting for the day to get done so you can ride your motorcycle free and go, ah, I can do whatever I want. I can wear whatever I want and grow my hair however I want to feel that way. Yes, it's gonna be a rude awakening. You got 20 years of somebody telling you when to jump and how high and it. Freedom is amazing and it's unsettling for your nervous system. And, dude, you, you think that's when you're gonna come off, bro?
- [30:57]
John
I, I, no, no.
- [30:58]
Dr. John DeLoney
I would love to see you try to get sober with structure right now. And if it is painful and you find yourself lashing out and you find yourself angry and you can't sleep, that is the alarm bells that you need to run towards, not away from.
- [31:14]
John
Okay, no, that's a, that's a good point. I always do feel the need I need to be doing something which I know is, you know, it's an addiction coming in a different form. But. No, no, that's, that's good advice and I do have some time left before I'll be, you know, out and be able and not have those resources. No, that's pretty clear cut advice. I don't think there's too much gray there.
- [31:33]
Dr. John DeLoney
Well, I mean I, I. The single greatest, what do you call it, Rationalizers I know in the planet are my, my, my closest loved ones, my friends that are in the recovery community. They can get me believing that the sky is red. Like, like they are so good at just twisting reality in a way. I'm like, I think, think you're right. It looks blue to me, but I'm pretty sure it's red. Like they're just the best rationalizers on the planet. And so, yeah, just speaking as black and white as I can, dude. And by the way, you're gonna do what you're gonna do. I can't. I'm not gonna be there with you. You can do what you want to do. I would just ask three things. Number one, never, never, never, never threaten your wife with separation. It's cold, it's cruel, man. Don't do that. Be a better man than that. The second thing is be intentional about what y'all are going to build together. Something that not. You are not going to run from the military. You're going to build something that you're going to go towards. What is it? A small business, traveling, a new adventure. We're going to have kids finally. Like what? I don't know what the thing is, but go towards it. And the third thing is, while you still have an alarm clock on you that you got to wake up for, man, I would love to see you get stone sober for six months and really deal with the demons. Because going from gambling hundreds of thousands of dollars to alcohol since you're 17 to daily wheat like, man, it just tells me your body is wrestling with some kind of demon. And the weed keeps it quiet. The weed works. The gambling works for a minute till it brings your house down. Alcohol works. Man, I'd love to see you live a life where you're just free. You drink coffee in the morning because you want to. You just fall asleep at night because you're tired. You and your wife just have wild, passionate love making and adventures and dinners and meals because y'all like each other, not because you're living a life that you have to be half asleep. I've long talked about my love for red light and red light therapy, my love for infrared saunas, and my concerns about the way certain types of light disrupts our mood and sleeps, and more. I've been looking for someone I could team up with to offer red light and near infrared light therapy at the highest quality, as well as someone who could help me with my other concerns about our modern living environment. I've tried a number of different companies and products and I'm super excited to be partnering with Bon Charge, a world leader in red light therapy. I've purchased a number of Bon Charge products with my own money and I love them. Red light and near infrared light therapy has been reviewed in over 4000 peer reviewed studies with 400 plus studies being double blind placebo trials. Not only do these studies show amazing health benefits, not one has shown any negative side effects. Red light therapy can help with boosting your mood, helping with sleep, reducing stress, recovery from aches and pains, better skin and skin health, cellulite stretch marks and more. I use my red light therapy panels and mask both near infrared light and red light 10 to 20 minutes each day and sometimes more. And I often do this during my prayer and meditation time or when I'm having trouble sleeping. It's become a cornerstone of my health and wellness practice. I've also ordered Bon Charge's infrared sauna blanket, their special lamps and bulbs for my home and more. Bon Charge ships worldwide in rapid time and their products, including red light Therapy, are HSA and FSA eligible. Bon Charge offers easy returns and exchanges and a 12 month warranty on all red light therapy devices. Bon Charge also has other amazing products such as low blue light bulbs, blue light glasses, EMF protection products, infrared sauna blankets and 100% blackout sleep mask and more. And it's all backed by Science. Go to boncharge.com DeLoney and use code DeLoney to save 15 off your order. That's B O-N C-H-A-R-G-E.com DeLoney and use code DELONEY to save 15%. All right, we are back. Hey listen, I'm excited to share that episodes of the Dr. John DeLoney show are now available a week early. For all those listening, there's like seven of you who are like, I've gotta listen early. It's now available a week early in the Ramsey Network app. You can also watch full video episodes of the show and so much more. You can golly dude, you can go through. There's just so much cool stuff. Go to the. Download the Ramsey Network app. You can. You can search, you can dig into stuff, and you can check it out early and for free. Ramsey Network app. And you can check the show notes for the link to the app. All right, let's go out to Richmond, Virginia, and talk to Ann. What's up?
- [36:41]
Elizabeth
And so I'm actually calling about a friend of mine.
- [36:47]
Dr. John DeLoney
Sure. And calls for a friend, huh?
- [36:51]
Elizabeth
For real?
- [36:52]
Dr. John DeLoney
Sure.
- [36:53]
Elizabeth
I had my daughter about five months ago, and it was cool because I had a kid with about four of my other friends. Something was in the water. I don't know. But anyway.
- [37:07]
Dr. John DeLoney
Awesome. Okay.
- [37:08]
Elizabeth
So we've been. We've been on this journey together. First children, and all of us had different birth experiences, different support systems, but one of our friends in particular is having a really rough time. Tell me about it. Yeah, so she and I probably both had, like, the more traumatic birth experiences, but unfortunately, her child was in the NICU for an extended period of time. I don't know what that's like, but I can only imagine how challenging that was. And since having the kid. What we. And I say we. It's my. My very close friend and I have. Are friends with her and have kind of been noticing this, that we think she's really struggling with postpartum depression or even rage. And that's manifesting in messages to us in the middle of the night on Instagram that are just like, I hate my life. Or when her baby's crying in a group setting saying, nobody cares to her baby. Just saying, hey, nobody cares, baby. Or even referring to her baby as it. And I know, like, I know my friend's heart, and I know that this is probably chemical, this is probably beyond her, but I'm worried about her. And I've talked to her when I can. But it's also a very sensitive subject. I mean, I went through my own challenges, and I know how difficult it can be to really, like, see the forest for the trees when you're coming out of this incredibly intense life change. That was traumatic. But, yeah, I'm really concerned about her. And I think what I'm really calling is to understand when she says these things in a group setting or even one on one. I've been at a loss for words of how to respond in a way that is honest but supportive, but doesn't make it okay necessarily. I hope that makes sense.
- [39:10]
Dr. John DeLoney
Yeah, totally. I think. Oh, man. I guess I'll just say this as direct as I Can. Yes. There's some sensitivity. Some major sensitivity. I am literally only sitting here before you because I had a couple of my closest friends in the world wade through insane amounts of sewage to get to me when I was hurting.
- [39:42]
Elizabeth
Yeah. Yeah.
- [39:44]
Dr. John DeLoney
And so intervention is too dramatic of a word, and that show has kind of made it sensational. But, yeah, having. Having coffee at your house one morning and inviting everybody over just to check in and go around the room.
- [40:01]
Elizabeth
Yeah.
- [40:02]
Dr. John DeLoney
And say, just want to check on everybody. I've had some good days and some bad days. We're just going to start going around, seeing how everybody's doing. How are you doing?
- [40:09]
Elizabeth
Yeah, I've made a point of doing that, and I.
- [40:12]
Dr. John DeLoney
With her by herself or with a group?
- [40:14]
Elizabeth
Both. Both, actually.
- [40:16]
Dr. John DeLoney
In. In a group. Okay. Tell me about that.
- [40:20]
Elizabeth
Well, there's been a few times, and to be fair or clear, I guess I'm probably the one she's closest to in the group because we both had emergency C sections. And she called me the day it happened. And so I feel a sort of responsibility of kind of stepping up and being that person for her. And so there have been. I almost, like, make it a calendar note in my phone to call her or text her, like, every other day and set something up, whether it's a walk with just me or friends in a group. And we had a group come over probably two weeks ago, and that was when she kind of expressed that she was having, like, almost like hallucinations at night when she was taking care of the kid. And that's when I got really scared, and I actually reached out to her husband and called him and said, hey, I'm really concerned. What can I do? And also, I just want you to know that I'm here for you.
- [41:20]
Dr. John DeLoney
What did he say?
- [41:21]
Elizabeth
He. I think he kind of had a sigh of relief of, like, oh, you see what I'm seeing? And, like, this isn't just a battle that I have to fight, you know? And I think she's aware of it, but it's also like, I kind of see. You know, I remember being in the fog of that. It was a different situation for me. But you need someone to throw you a rope. And so I think the question I'm having is, like, how do you throw a rope? With sensitivity, but also, like, don't. It's.
- [41:51]
Dr. John DeLoney
You don't. You're. You're past that.
- [41:57]
Elizabeth
Yeah.
- [41:58]
Dr. John DeLoney
And you said something important earlier. You said, you can't see the forest from. For the trees. That's why we have friends.
- [42:08]
Elizabeth
Yeah.
- [42:08]
Dr. John DeLoney
Who will Grab our wrist and walk us through the forest when we can't see the way out. And so, yeah. It's. What I'm telling you is I've been in your situation. I've never. I've never been in. I've sat with postpartum friends very directly.
- [42:22]
Elizabeth
Yeah.
- [42:23]
Dr. John DeLoney
And said, like, here's. Here's the options before you. You can go see a psychiatrist asap. You're going to see OB gyn and.
- [42:34]
Elizabeth
Yeah.
- [42:34]
Dr. John DeLoney
Tell them exactly the thoughts you're having because those thoughts are scary.
- [42:40]
Elizabeth
Yeah. And you think I know that. She's only telling us.
- [42:43]
Dr. John DeLoney
That's right. You know why? Because you. You come to believe they're going to take your baby away.
- [42:47]
Elizabeth
Yeah.
- [42:48]
Dr. John DeLoney
And your body also puts a bunch of GPS pins in that baby as it almost killed her. Right.
- [42:54]
Elizabeth
Yeah.
- [42:55]
Dr. John DeLoney
And then she couldn't hug. I mean, all. There's so much stuff going on there.
- [43:00]
Elizabeth
Yeah.
- [43:00]
Dr. John DeLoney
That terror demands a witness.
- [43:03]
Elizabeth
Yeah.
- [43:04]
Dr. John DeLoney
Right. And so you sit down with your friend and you say, hey, here's the deal. I'm going to love you the best I can. And I'm willing to. Whatever. Willing for you to be mad at me. Whatever. But you need to go see your doctor and I'm going to go with you.
- [43:18]
Elizabeth
Yeah. That's the step I just haven't taken. Like, I've had the conversations of, how are you doing? Are you. You know, are you still having the hallucinations? But I haven't taken the. Are you going to see your doctor?
- [43:30]
Dr. John DeLoney
It's not even that. It's not. I don't. I don't ask. Or when I get to the point where you need to be right now, I don't ask. Like, hey, are you going to. I don't ask that question. I say, you're going to. I'll go with you. Or I will stand here in your front yard when they come get you.
- [43:45]
Elizabeth
Yeah.
- [43:46]
Dr. John DeLoney
But I'm worried about you. Now. There's a little bit of bravado there. Most people aren't going to come get you. Right.
- [43:53]
Elizabeth
I'm the soft one in the friend group. I can't.
- [43:55]
Dr. John DeLoney
I. I know. And. And that's why I say, like, sometimes with a group, but I think it's letting her know, not asking. I see that you're not. Okay. I know for a fact you're only telling us a part of it because you have to. And I so love you and respect you for that.
- [44:11]
Elizabeth
Yeah.
- [44:12]
Dr. John DeLoney
We're going to see your doctor and I'm gonna go with you, but you gotta make an appointment. Today. Like, right now. Oh, I will. No, no. I'm not gonna leave. I'm not leaving here until you make an appointment. And I'm gonna go with you.
- [44:24]
Elizabeth
Yeah.
- [44:25]
Dr. John DeLoney
And I know this is scary. Can I hold your hand?
- [44:29]
Elizabeth
Yeah.
- [44:31]
Dr. John DeLoney
You get what I'm saying?
- [44:33]
Elizabeth
I do hear what you're saying.
- [44:34]
John
Yeah.
- [44:35]
Dr. John DeLoney
There's not a gentle way to throw a rope to somebody who's drowning.
- [44:39]
Elizabeth
Yeah.
- [44:39]
Dr. John DeLoney
You throw the rope as hard as you can, and if it hits them in the head and they have to get stitches, so be it. At least they're on the boat to get stitches.
- [44:49]
Elizabeth
Yeah. It was scary calling her husband, because I was like, I'm risking the friendship right now doing this. But at the end of the day, it was the right thing all day long.
- [44:56]
Dr. John DeLoney
I'll risk my friendships all day long. If people are still alive.
- [45:00]
Elizabeth
Yeah.
- [45:01]
Dr. John DeLoney
You know what I mean? And by the way, my wife reached out to one of my friends one time, and he came. To this day, he still never told me that she called him. She told me, but he hasn't. He honored her trust in that way because he loves me, and he obviously loves my wife, too. He's close friend, but he came down to tell me to go see somebody.
- [45:21]
Elizabeth
Yeah.
- [45:22]
Dr. John DeLoney
And he drove three hours to come see me. And I thought he was just bringing his son by to play with my son, but he listened to my whole spiel when I wasn't well, and he's like, you're gonna. You go see somebody. You're not. All right.
- [45:34]
Elizabeth
Yeah.
- [45:34]
Dr. John DeLoney
And it. My wife couldn't get through to me, My colleagues couldn't get through to me. He did. He did.
- [45:43]
Elizabeth
Yeah, he did.
- [45:44]
Dr. John DeLoney
And by the way, when he left, I was pissed. I was mad. Like, who do you think you are? Like, you don't know. You don't understand. Like, I did.
- [45:57]
Elizabeth
All right?
- [45:57]
Dr. John DeLoney
There's not an easy path through. And listen, if you want. If you talk to her and y'all want to call in, call in.
- [46:04]
Elizabeth
Okay.
- [46:04]
Dr. John DeLoney
I'll put you all. I'll put you both right back through.
- [46:07]
Elizabeth
Okay.
- [46:08]
Dr. John DeLoney
And if you don't want to go alone, get another friend. But if you think she trusts you dearly and she would listen to you then. Then have that conversation and do it in person.
- [46:19]
Elizabeth
I'm probably the one. It's just I never want to overstep or hurt someone by doing it, but at the same time, I think it's the right thing.
- [46:28]
Dr. John DeLoney
So how do you feel like it's an overstep?
- [46:34]
Elizabeth
Well, I don't know. I mean, I think When I was going through this stuff, there's. There's a lot you can assume on the outside about what someone is trying to do and their desires, working through something. And I just. I never want to assume. I don't know. I. I just don't want to assume something that's not there or just offend her. But I guess risking the offending someone is probably the right thing to do if it would help her through this. So, yeah.
- [47:12]
Dr. John DeLoney
Screws. Screw offending. I. I would. I would completely reframe that. And saying what? Like, I am her friend for this moment.
- [47:23]
Elizabeth
Yeah.
- [47:24]
Dr. John DeLoney
Nobody in the world can speak to her like I can. From an emergency C section, from the terror, from the we had a plan that we all talked through to how pissed off we are at our other friends, even though we love them because they got to do it. Like, we drew it up. All of it.
- [47:39]
Elizabeth
Yeah.
- [47:39]
Dr. John DeLoney
And then being able to say, I don't know what it's like not to be able to hold my baby for one week, two weeks, three weeks, a month. I don't know what that's like.
- [47:48]
Elizabeth
Yeah.
- [47:49]
Dr. John DeLoney
I don't know. Every. And you know this. Every husband's different. I don't know what it's like. You don't know what it's like being in that house with the doors closed.
- [47:56]
Elizabeth
Right.
- [47:58]
Dr. John DeLoney
And so who knows what hell she's going through? But the scariest thing is she's probably going through it by herself.
- [48:03]
Elizabeth
I think it's that I just don't want her to think that I'm saying she's doing a bad job, because that's not what I'm saying at all. You know, I want her to know that I think she's doing an awesome job and has been handed a really hand.
- [48:18]
Dr. John DeLoney
That's right.
- [48:19]
Elizabeth
But she needs help.
- [48:20]
Dr. John DeLoney
That's right. There you go. And so I. This might sound cheesy, but I think the greatest gift you could give her is to write her a letter and read it to her and say, I wrote this because I wasn't able to get it out.
- [48:36]
Elizabeth
Yeah.
- [48:37]
Dr. John DeLoney
And if it started with, you're the most amazing mom out of all of us, and I see you drowning.
- [48:44]
Elizabeth
Yeah.
- [48:47]
Dr. John DeLoney
And by the way, you can't control how she chooses to hear it. Or maybe not even chooses, in this moment, in this. In this fog, she's hurting a lot. She's struggling how she. Her body hears it. You can't control that. What you can do is do the best job you can to be compassionate and let her know, because we love you we're stepping in at this point. You got to go see somebody.
- [49:09]
Elizabeth
Yeah.
- [49:09]
Dr. John DeLoney
You got to go see somebody. And we'll be here to help with child care. We'll be here to help with whatever. But you got to go see somebody. And I'll go with you.
- [49:21]
Elizabeth
Okay? I can do it. Yeah.
- [49:28]
Dr. John DeLoney
She's lucky to have a friend like you.
- [49:31]
Elizabeth
Thanks.
- [49:32]
Dr. John DeLoney
And just because it's uncomfortable doesn't mean it's the wrong thing. Okay?
- [49:36]
Elizabeth
Yeah. Thanks, Dr. John. I appreciate it.
- [49:39]
Dr. John DeLoney
Last thing I'll tell you, if you get even the slightest sense that she's a danger to herself or to her baby, call 911 immediately. No questions asked. No. Could care less if you don't like me anymore. But if I get even the slightest sense that she's gonna do something irreversible, I'm making that call right away. It's the new year. It's my favorite time of year. And everyone starts thinking of new routines, building better habits, stopping things that aren't helpful, and otherwise building a better life. But we all know that most new go get em goals are a waste of time because we don't put in the systems to make them sustainable. So how about this year, let's focus on fewer sustainable goals and building better systems. And let's start by curating a system and a goal that's good for your soul. Let's start by focusing on our spiritual lives in 2025. Let's focus on prayer and meditation. To do this, I recommend Hallow, the number one prayer app in the world. I use it and I love it. Hallow offers over 10,000 guided prayers and meditations to help you grow closer to God and find peace. Hallow has some amazing daily prayers that will be perfect for beginners to start with. And one of Hallow's most popular features is the daily reflection with Jonathan Roumie from the show the Chosen. You can also check out the daily scripture readings, nightly sleep prayers, and if you don't have much time, there's even something called the daily minute. Hallow makes it easy to build a system and a routine by making a schedule, adding reminders, and fostering a community for accountability. So start this year off right by putting your relationship with God first with the help of Hallow. Right now, they're offering three free months when you join at hallow.com deloney that's hallow.com deloney for three months of Hallow, absolutely free. All right, we're back. All right, Kelly, this is a time when I should have done this at the beginning of the show. But I'm gonna do at the end of the show when I don't know any public figure who has not found themselves having to admit something publicly. And I'm not who I said I was. And so that's me making this admission.
- [51:56]
Kelly
I think I know where we're going. I'm so happy. I'm glad you didn't do it at the beginning of the show. Cause I wasn't here.
- [52:04]
Dr. John DeLoney
Yeah.
- [52:05]
Kelly
So this is as it should be.
- [52:08]
Dr. John DeLoney
Thursday night of last week. We're recording this on a Monday. Thursday night of last week, at the end of this big, long event with business leaders, I joined a band on stage. I played a Purple prs.
- [52:28]
Kelly
What did you play?
- [52:29]
Dr. John DeLoney
And I played a Nickelback song. Yes, you did.
- [52:33]
Kelly
And I was there to witness it.
- [52:35]
Dr. John DeLoney
I played a Purple prs. For God's sake. Will Rudd, Letters, Purple prs. And I played Nickelback. And. And it jammed. Yes, the whole thing jammed.
- [52:46]
Kelly
And there's also video evidence.
- [52:48]
Dr. John DeLoney
There is video evidence, and I'm not gonna lie. It's. It's.
- [52:52]
Kelly
It was so much fun. Would you like to tell the people what I. So when I texted you when I left and I told you that this would come back to haunt you at some point in time, what did you tell me?
- [53:04]
Dr. John DeLoney
Oh, I said, I'm already on my way to a church. I have to ask God for forgiveness. And you said. You said, God will forgive. Kelly doesn't forget. I played Nickelback live in front of.
- [53:16]
Kelly
Other people, and it was great. Yeah, you did a fantastic job on it.
- [53:21]
Dr. John DeLoney
I appreciate that.
- [53:21]
Kelly
You did a great job. The whole. The whole thing was great.
- [53:24]
Dr. John DeLoney
For anyone knows music, playing a Nickelback song is. It's the same skills you learn when they teach you tata ti ti ta in elementary school. With a xylophone like what, Hot Cross.
- [53:34]
Kelly
Buns on the recorder?
- [53:35]
Dr. John DeLoney
Yeah, it's Hot Cross Buns. There's. There's four whole chords. Four whole chords.
- [53:39]
Kelly
But prior to that, before that, you played a Motley Crue song. Yeah, we played, like, Kickstart My Heart, which is.
- [53:44]
Dr. John DeLoney
It's. It's not complex, but it's complex and there's a lot of moving around. Not even 18 of the jamming in the audience. But, man, you play some Nickelback, and, dude, there were shirts unbuttoning themselves. It was a whole thing. It was a whole thing. I don't. I don't understand. I don't understand. But the. The Nickelback effect is real, and I just need everyone listening to this to know, I did pick up a guitar that wasn't a Gibson or a Jackson. I did, and I played it, and it was purple and it was Nickelback, and I rode home in silence.
- [54:17]
Kelly
There was a point whenever, of course, I. Like, there was a big group of us team members here that were just having a great time.
- [54:23]
Dr. John DeLoney
Yeah. Every Nickelback word, by the way.
- [54:25]
Kelly
Of course I did. I freely admit it.
- [54:28]
Dr. John DeLoney
And I thought that tattoo across the top of your chest was like a. Like, I don't know. You're just trying to, like, put out the vibe. I didn't realize you loved it.
- [54:33]
Kelly
I look up and John catches my eye, and, like, the shame that was in your eyes was fantastic. What was this you did? How youw Remind me.
- [54:50]
Dr. John DeLoney
I've been wrong. That it?
- [54:52]
Kelly
Yes, that's the one. But it was, y'all. You did a fantastic job on it. And I will say, because we had a ton of business leaders here, nobody else in the audience, besides the very few of us that knew, would have known you. You did it well. You hit it well. Well, listen, you stuffed down those feelings and played on.
- [55:11]
Dr. John DeLoney
I took my pride and my feelings and I hid them for the sake of a good rock show. And then I just wallowed in shame all night. About 3am My wife rolled over and said, what have you done? Are you okay? And I was like, I can't talk about it yet. I think she thought I was having an affair. And I was like, no, worse. Much worse. I played Nickelback in public. And she was like, no, you promised. And she went running out of the bedroom. None of that happened, but all right, America, it will never happen again. It actually might, because it. I'm not gonna lie, it felt kind of good. Nickelback's on to something. 400 million albums later, however many they've sold, they're on to something. But I just can't buy a prs. Not yet. Not yet. America. Love you guys.
- [55:54]
Caller
By.