Could This Secret End My Marriage Before It Starts?

Summary

The Dr. John Delony Show – Episode Summary

Episode Title: Could This Secret End My Marriage Before It Starts?
Host: Dr. John Delony (Ramsey Network)
Date: December 5, 2025

---

Main Theme & Purpose

This episode of The Dr. John Delony Show is centered on real conversations about relationships, marriage, and mental health, driven by live callers facing complex personal dilemmas. Dr. Delony expertly addresses feelings of guilt, shame, changing values in marriage, deep friendships, and the navigation of tricky family dynamics.

---

Caller One: Guilt, Shame, and Pre-Marital Secrets (John in Duluth, MN)

[02:13–18:00]

Key Points

• Background:
  John, a 20-year-old engaged man, struggles with guilt and shame about a history of pornography use, compounded by a childhood marked by heavy responsibility caring for special-needs siblings.
• Origins of Shame:
  John reveals a history where guilt was used by his parents, especially his mother, as a motivating (but ultimately damaging) force, leading to internalized shame.
• Seeking Connection & Vulnerability:
  John wants to ensure he doesn't carry these patterns into his upcoming marriage or let secrecy and unspoken shame undermine his relationship.

Dr. Delony's Insights

• On Parental Responsibility:

  "That is an insane job to give to a six-year-old. That’s madness." (04:35, Dr. John Delony)

• Distinguishing Guilt and Shame:

  "Guilt says I did something that violates my values...Shame is an identity. Guilt is a good thing…Shame is: I am a bad thing." (08:48–10:00, Dr. John Delony)

• Path Forward in Marriage:
  Dr. Delony encourages radical honesty with John’s fiancée, full transparency, and proactive work on his identity—shifting from “I am not enough” to “I am worth being loved.”
  • "You can't just sit in a room and imagine what happens next. It’s your job to go find mentor relationships because you can't rely on your parents. And we’re not going to cut them off…but they don’t get a vote anymore." (15:17–15:44)
  • "It all starts with a full transparency with her." (16:32)

Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Emotional Programming:

  "I've got it wired into my nervous system that the people closest to me are going to leave because I’m not enough." (14:50, Dr. John Delony)

• On Parental Failure:

  "The fact that she didn’t hold your hand and say, 'Oh my gosh, I completely let you down,'…it’s madness." (16:51, Dr. John Delony)

---

Caller Two: Wife Comes Out – Navigating Massive Change (Josh in Seattle, WA)

[21:02–37:31]

Key Points

• Background:
  Josh’s wife, previously out as bisexual, recently identified as gay and suggested potentially opening the marriage. This instigates a crisis around core marital values, chiefly monogamy.
• Josh’s Perspective:
  He created a safe space for his wife’s self-exploration but now fears their values have diverged too far, especially as her journey prompts her to bring in new sexual and relational boundaries.
• Uncertainty & Identity:
  Josh is uncertain how to move forward—wrestling with feelings of stability, trust, and wanting clarity over their evolving relationship agreement.

Dr. Delony's Insights

• Getting Beneath the Surface:
  Delony moves the conversation away from identity politics to the core pain:

  "I want to get beneath that to the guy that just has heartbroken because his wife said, 'You’re not enough. I’m thinking I want more.'" (26:39)

• On Value Shifts and the Reality of Change:

  "The person you married no longer exists." (36:13)

  • Encourages Josh to be honest about what's actually true in their marriage, and to consider whether both want to build a new marriage together.
  • "Marriage is hard, especially when one of you starts changing and really transforming and exploring new identities and wanting to try things that were formerly way out of bounds, values-wise… Do we want to build a new marriage together?" (37:28–37:31)

Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Exploration vs. Partnership:

  "Any exploration of who you are is an exploration of who y’all are…When you get married, one plus one equals one." (33:42–34:46)

• On Josh’s Dilemma:

  "What is true inside your marriage?…I hear you trying to be open-minded… I want you to be honest about you." (35:23–36:07)

---

Caller Three: Friend’s Secret & Handling Betrayal (Curtis in Fargo, ND)

[39:16–48:53]

Key Points

• Background:
  Curtis, 20, learns from his best friend’s girlfriend that the friend strongly pushed her into an abortion and kept it a secret. Curtis is torn between personal values, friendship, and the pain of the secret.
• Conflict & Friendship:
  He hasn’t yet confronted his friend, unsure how to approach—feeling both betrayed and sad about potential loss.
• Processing Adult Friendship Trauma:
  Dr. Delony normalizes the sense of “breakup” when old friendships dissolve or face hard truths.

Dr. Delony's Insights

• Give the Benefit of the Doubt:

  "The greatest gift you can give a friend is the benefit of the doubt and the chance to be honest and tell the truth." (46:23–46:31)

• On Approaching the Conversation:

  "If he confirms what you heard, then you take 24 hours, and you’ve got choices to make about the men you want in your life…But friends deserve your anger too. And they deserve your celebration too." (47:33–47:56)

Notable Quotes & Moments

• Personal Vulnerability:
  Delony shares a story of a tragic falling-out with a lifelong friend after jumping to conclusions, underscoring the need for direct, honest conversation.

  "The last words we ever said to each other are not repeatable on this show…friends are worth the benefit of the doubt." (45:50–46:31)

---

Lightning Round: Mother-in-law Travel Boundaries

[50:40–53:47]

Key Points

• The Scenario:
  A listener asks if it’s wrong that he and his wife prefer to travel together, versus his mom’s offer to take them globally—one at a time, without their spouse.
• Delony & Kelly’s Take:
  Both agree it feels odd and potentially divisive; boundaries are affirmed.

Notable Quotes

• "That’s divide and conquer. That’s not getting to know one person…this thing's whole thing sounds shady." (51:33–53:02, Dr. John Delony)

• "The kind of thing you want to share with your spouse." (52:35, Kelly)

---

Key Timestamps & Noteworthy Quotes

• Guilt vs. Shame:
  "Guilt is a good emotion…Shame is an identity." – John Delony [09:03–10:00]
• On Having the Pornography Conversation with a Partner:
  "It’s your job to go seek [mentor relationships] and you’re going to have to be really courageous and trust again, be honest again." – John Delony [17:25]
• On Marital Change:
  "The person you married no longer exists." – John Delony [36:13]
• On Confronting a Friend:
  "The greatest gift you can give a friend is the benefit of the doubt and the chance to be honest and tell the truth." [46:23]
• On Mother-in-law Travel Proposals:
  "That’s divide and conquer. I’m out on this one… this whole thing sounds shady." – John Delony [51:33–53:02]

---

Overall Tone & Takeaways

Dr. Delony maintains a compassionate yet direct tone, encouraging radical honesty, self-reflection, and the value of authentic connections—whether in marriage or friendship. He challenges listeners to look beneath the surface of their pain, question inherited patterns, and bravely build new relational truths.

---

This episode is a journey through raw personal conflict, offering practical wisdom for handling shame, evolving marriages, betrayal, and complicated family boundaries—all with signature Delony humor and candor.

Transcript

[John Deloney]

All right, let's talk about your marriage. Right now we have February and October weekends on sale for the money in Marriage Getaway. It's the best marriage retreat on the planet. Tickets start at 749 bucks a couple. Get [e-mail] Getaway.

[Caller John]

From the oldest of five kids, the youngest three all have special needs. My brother, he has a physical condition, so he can do a whole lot. So they basically gave me the responsibility of making sure that he didn't break bones.

[John Deloney]

Okay, hold on, hold on, hold on. That is an insane job to give to a six year old. That's madness.

Yo, yo, yo, what's up? This is Don Jaloney. Just kidding. This is John Deloney with the Dr. John Deloney show taking your calls on your mental and emotional health and your relationships, your marriages, your dating life, whatever you got going on. For the last two decades plus, I've been sitting with hurting people trying to figure out what's the next right move. I'd love for you to pull up a seat and we're going to figure it out. If you want to be on the show, go to john deloney.com ask a. And don't forget to check out the Together app. It's in the Apple Store. It's the app that I made specifically to help you make the next right step in your marriage. A lot of people think marriages are over. I don't know how to do this. Maybe our relationships run its course. We have a good marriage. We want to be great. This Together app is for you. And by the way, I priced it because everybody is, is struggling financially. Everybody price it is six bucks. And you can either do it by yourself or bring your spouse for that same six bucks. That's it. Six bucks a month to transform your marriage. The reviews, we got thousands of people in it. The reviews are, I mean, they're staggering. They're so great. So go check it out. It's in the App Store for you Android folks, just relax. We, we got it coming, but it's not there yet. But for you Apple folks, you can go check it out in the Apple Store. Let's go to Duluth, Minnesota and talk to John. What's up, John?

[Caller John]

Hey, John, how's it going?

[John Deloney]

I'm great, brother. How are you, man?

[Caller John]

Pretty good. It's a pretty cold day up here, but, you know, that's kind of, kind of how it goes.

[John Deloney]

We need a cool day. It's been a uncomfortably hot falls, so, man, we need some of that cool Minnesota weather to come on Down.

[Caller John]

Absolutely. You can have all you want.

[John Deloney]

Very cool. What's up dude?

[Caller John]

So I just had a question for you.

[Caller Josh]

I.

My.

[Caller John]

I guess I'll start with my question. My question is I'm getting married next summer and how do I deal with the guilt of porn, of past porn as I go into, into this.

Amazing relationship.

[John Deloney]

How old are you?

[Caller John]

I am 20 years old.

[John Deloney]

20 years old?

[Caller John]

Yes sir.

[John Deloney]

I. Tell me more about your question. Well, about dealing with guilt.

[Caller John]

I. I'm a very guilt heavy person. I like that's just inherently how, how I am. From a very young age. I've had a lot of be put on me and when I wouldn't.

When I wouldn't do well with the things that were given to me and my parents would use guilt as a, as a motivating factor.

[John Deloney]

It's incredibly demotivating. So it doesn't work. Give me an example of a thing you were given to do that you didn't live up to the standard that your parents had.

[Caller John]

Well, there's a couple circumstances. I'm the oldest of five kids and the youngest three all have special needs and there was multiple circumstances where I'd be 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 years.

[Caller Curtis]

Old.

[Caller John]

Going on since I was really, really young. And.

My brother, he has a physical condition so he can do a whole lot. So I took care of him a lot. And sometimes he would still get hurt, things would still happen. He has broke bone disease, so he breaks bones really easy. So they basically gave me the responsibility of making sure that he didn't break bones.

[John Deloney]

Okay, hold on, hold on, hold on. That's insane.

[Caller Josh]

Yeah.

[John Deloney]

No, no, no, I don't want you to hear that. I want you to feel that.

That is an insane job to give to a 6 year old or a 9 year old or a 14 year old.

That's madness.

[Caller John]

It was similar too. So my, one of them, one of my brothers has brittle bone disease, so he breaks bones really easy. And the other two my parents adopted, the youngest two have FASD and it was kind kind of. We were all homeschool growing up and it was kind of when dad was gone at work, which he worked a lot, you know, to provide for five kids through special needs when dad was gone. I was expected to kind of take up the mantle there.

[John Deloney]

What did that mean?

[Caller John]

I would watch over my.

My siblings and like there was a circumst where my brother, he actually. Crazy, crazy coincidence I guess. But he actually had a tree fall on him, the one with brittle bone disease. So it was me and my. Everyone except for my dad was home and mom, my mom grabbed my brother and was able to take him to the emergency room. But I was left in the shock and awe as I was 11 at the time with my three other siblings, like not knowing what to do, not knowing what's even going on. Like when my brother was, was when he was being taken away, it was pretty, pretty extreme. There's lots of like medical stuff going on, like, is he gonna make it? You know, and my siblings are thinking the exact same thing. So trying to mediate all that as well.

[John Deloney]

Well, the fact that you were put in a scary situation or you're the oldest, you're the 11 year old and we got to take one kid to the ER and I need you to step up, that's, that's not a crazy thing, right? Because the circumstances was crazy. Right?

[Caller John]

Exactly. Yeah.

[John Deloney]

But.

The fact that you're 20, almost a decade later and you're as you're telling this story, I can hear it replaying in your body, in your nervous system.

That tells me an important piece was left out.

And that is you were an 11 year old not holding things together. You were an 11 year old who was all alone.

Yeah. Not just alone for a couple of hours while dad got home.

But an 11 year old who was going to be judged for what you did while mom was gone. And why did you let this happen to brother? And why did we. You have two adopted siblings with special needs. Why didn't you fill in the blank.

With no attention to walking in the door and hugging the 11 year old first and saying, thank God you stepped up. I knew I could count on you.

Right?

[Caller Curtis]

Yeah.

[John Deloney]

Yeah. I've had situations where I had to leave.

You know what, I'll tell you. The other night, this happened the other night. I have a 15 year old, a little bit, couple years older than you were and a 9 year old. And my wife came in at 11 o' clock and said, I gotta go to the ER right now. This is just a month ago. I left a note for both of them and I drove my wife to the er.

And when I got home, the first thing I did was not say, oh my gosh, why are there clothes on the floor? Or the first thing I did. And again, I'm not a perfect parent. The first thing I did was I walked in, I hugged my son, I hugged my daughter and said, thank you guys for stepping up.

You get what I'm saying?

[Caller John]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

[John Deloney]

And why am I, why am I pointing back to all of this stuff? You're not dealing with guilt. You're dealing with shame.

Because guilt says I did something that violates my values.

Right.

[Caller John]

Yeah.

[John Deloney]

I looked at pornography. I don't want to be that guy. But I looked at it. Shame is like. So guilt is. I did a thing. I did a bad thing. Right, whatever. That's just. I don't like using that kind of word, but I did a bad thing. Shame is. I am a bad thing.

[Caller John]

Yeah, you work.

[John Deloney]

You. You work through guilt by not doing that thing again. Guilt is a good thing. It's. It's a good emotion. It's not something we should run and hide from. It tells us the truth. We violated something. We did a thing that is against our core values. I'm glad that I have guilt. It's a good alarm system for me. I shouldn't have said that thing. I don't want to be that kind of guy. I'm not that kind of guy. I shouldn't have had those thoughts. I shouldn't have looked at that on the Internet. I shouldn't have hit that guy in the parking lot. Right. Guilt is a good thing.

Shame is an identity.

[Caller John]

Well, and I remember very early me and my brother with brittle bone disease. Actually, now that we're kind of becoming adults, we're able to have those kind of more in depth conversations together. And both of us have struggled. Like, that's been our turn to. From a very. Like, I remember doing, like being involved in that when I was 6 or 7.

[John Deloney]

Yes.

[Caller John]

And I remember I didn't want to talk to my dad about it because I knew that he would be exhausted and more than likely flip out. So I went and talked my mom, who was a very, very loving woman. But both of us remember it exactly the same when we individually went and talked to my mom about it. Like, she, like, for the first time. I've never seen my mom act so crazy before. And she started, like, blaming. Blaming us, like, coming and like, attacking us. Like, she wasn't like, there she was coming after my brother and I. And I remember after that, it was just like, that was. That was a very big core mem defining moment.

[John Deloney]

Okay. And so what you have to commit to doing is not passing that same level of fear. And am I good enough Questioning onto your new wife?

[Caller John]

Yeah.

[Caller Curtis]

Gosh, how do I do that?

[John Deloney]

You have to be really intentional. And it starts with you being honest and saying, if you haven't been already, these are conversations you only to have now because they're going to resurface in a million wild Ways. Over the course of your marriage, if you enter into every conversation and every interaction, every tough situation with your fiance in a. Oh, you might leave. If you really saw me and knew me, you would leave.

[Caller John]

That's actually, I was just talking. I'm good friends with my pastor at our church, and I was just talking to him on the way home from work today. And I was like, the part of the conversation is, man, my fiance is feeling really, really distant. What did I do? Like where, like, like, what's. What's going on? It's like it immediately turned into fear.

[John Deloney]

Because your mom left you, bro.

[Caller John]

Yeah.

[John Deloney]

She just didn't kick you out of the house. When you went to her at the age of freaking six and said, I looked at something that made me feel gross inside.

She said, emotionally, get away from me.

[Caller Curtis]

Yeah.

[John Deloney]

And dad just took off.

And you, you've been walking around. Yeah. And you've been. Well, here's the thing. You're walking around all the time thinking you're not enough because the two people that were put on the planet to love you and be connected to you.

Said, you're not enough for me. You're not enough for us.

[Caller Josh]

Yeah.

[John Deloney]

So how can a 20 year old look out into the world and see this beautiful woman he's asking to spend the rest of his life with and say, oh, she's gonna buy it, though.

You don't even buy it. You don't think you're enough.

[Caller Curtis]

Mm.

[John Deloney]

And so the path forward is sitting down and being honest and saying, I don't know that I've fully told you the death.

The fact that you described your mother before you told me what happened, how she went after a six year old for stumbling into pornography.

The fact that she didn't hold your hand and say, oh my gosh, I completely let you down. It's my job to keep you safe from that kind of trash. When you're six or seven, I failed you. And by the way.

Boobs are awesome.

And you're going to always be curious. And there's nothing wrong with you for wanting to look.

But there's a time and a place for it. And this is. This isn't healthy. It's not good.

[Caller John]

Yeah.

[John Deloney]

The fact that that wasn't the conversation, it was your gross. You disgust me. Get out of my. So you sitting down with your fiance and saying, hey, look, I'm still to this. Here's the programming I've got that I'm not enough.

And the way I have tried to feel alive in my own skin is through pornography, and I'm done with that. I'm going to trip up and I'm going to stumble. I'm going to feel guilty, because guilt is right. Because I've set a value for myself, and I've tripped over my own values.

But I need you to know there's going to be times when I need you just to put your hand on my hand.

To put your forehead on my forehead.

Because I've got it wired into my nervous system that the people closest to me are going to leave because I'm not enough.

[Caller John]

Yeah.

[John Deloney]

And she might say, actually, I've been meaning to talk to you, and y' all need to have that conversation now. Or she's probably going to say.

I said I would marry you. I'm never gonna leave. I think you're enough.

[Caller Curtis]

Mm.

[John Deloney]

And by the way, beginning to believe and learn that I am worth being loved. And those two people didn't do a good job at all. But I am worth it. You have work to do. You can't just sit in a room and imagine what happens next. It's your job to go find mentor relationships because you can't rely on your parents.

And we're not going to cut them off. I'm still going to show up at Thanksgiving, but they don't get a vote anymore.

[Caller John]

Yeah.

[John Deloney]

It's my job to go show up and do the work. When it comes to my professional work, to my academic work, I'm going to make good grades because that's kind of guy I am. Because I'm worth that.

[Caller John]

Yeah.

[John Deloney]

I'm going to exercise because I'm a. I'm a guy that's a good steward of my body. You get what I'm saying? I'm going to start changing the identity, and then I'm going to backfill that with action.

[Caller Curtis]

Yeah.

[John Deloney]

I'm gonna seek vitality in life. I'm not just gonna sit at home feeling dead in my own skin. Every time my partner gets up, my fiance gets up to go to the bathroom, I'm gonna feel like, what did I do? What's wrong? Does she not like me anymore? Oh, my gosh. What's happening? And the way I can shut that voice off is with pornography or with the drink.

Right?

[Caller John]

Yeah.

[John Deloney]

That's your. That's. That has to be your path moving forward.

But all that's going to start with a full transparency with her. Hey, I've never told you about what really, the kind of the.

The weight I've had to carry. My dad looked at me and made put me in charge of his special needs children and made it my responsibility at 9, at 11.

That if something happened to them, that was my fault. It's madness.

Madness. When my mom used to leave and have to rush one of my siblings to the emergency room, I got graded on my performance. Not hugged with gratitude. It's madness. I'm sorry that you've had to endure that. You get to decide what kind of man you're going to become next. And the challenge for you is those two people, the two people that were supposed to be ride or die for you weren't.

But you've got to have men and women that are out ahead of you that are ride or die with you. And you're gonna have to go seek them out and you're gonna have to be really courageous and trust again, be honest again.

That's your mission. My brother. I'm gonna send you a copy of Building a Non Anxious life. And hang on the line. I'm gonna hook you and your fiance up with a Year of the Together app for free. And y' all can use this as y' all are starting your new marriage together. I think it's going to make an amazing difference.

And hang on the line here. We'll get you hooked up. We come back, a man asks if he should divorce his wife who just came out as a lesbian.

All right. I travel all over the country and I've got social media clips all over the place. And if you've ever seen me out and about or on the Internet, you've for sure seen me wearing poncho shirts. I love wearing poncho shirts. And right now it's cold outside and I can wear my super favorite poncho denims in flannels like the one I'm wearing right now. Poncho's performance denim has that soft, broken in feel with a little bit of stretch, like you've worn it a thousand times, but it still looks amazing. And poncho flannels come in original or western styles, and they're guaranteed to be the softest shirts you own. Somehow they're both durable and comfortable. They're amazing. Poncho shirts come in slim or regular fit, and they're built for real life. Whether you're outside doing work, you're outside fishing or hunting, or if you're on stage, they hold up to whatever life throws at you. When you're shopping for the men and the boys in your life this holiday season, go to ponchooutdoors.com DeLoney you can sign up with your email and you'll get 10 bucks off your first order. I want you to tell them that you heard about Poncho right here on this show and if you take a picture of yourself on social media, tag me and tag Poncho. Hurry and place your order now to get free shipping before the holidays. That's poncho outdoors.com DeLoney.

I don't talk about them very much, but I've got three dogs in my house right now and I love them and I know how stressful taking care of your pets can be. When you're traveling over the holidays, this is going to happen. You're going to be on the road away from your regular vet and you're going to need some sort of pet care. When this happens to you, Dutch has your back. Dutch is the leading telehealth service for pets. Gives you 24,7 access to licensed veterinarians. Dutch can treat over 150 common pet conditions and you can get expert care in minutes with no waiting rooms and no long waits to get in. Just a 10 minute call from home and you get a treatment plan right away. A Dutch membership covers up to five pets plus unlimited visits, unlimited follow ups and prescriptions shipped for free. And with my code, all of this is less than seven bucks a month. That pays for itself fast because you spend that much just to see a vet in an office one time. The average pet owner saves over 800 bucks a year with Dutch. If you've ever felt helpless trying to get care for your pet, especially when you're traveling, you Dutch gives you the peace of mind you've been looking for. Go to Dutch.com DeLoney and use code DeLoney to get 50 bucks off a year of vet care. That's Dutch-U T C H.com DeLoney use code DeLoney.

All right, let's go up to Seattle, Washington, home of the great sound garden and talk to Jake. What's up, Jake?

[Caller Josh]

Hey, how's it going?

[John Deloney]

Doing good, brother. How are you, ma'? Am?

[Caller Josh]

Well, you know, been better, been worse.

[John Deloney]

That's.

Well done. Well done. What's up?

[Caller Josh]

Well, my wife came out to me a few weeks ago now and there's been a few updates, but it doesn't seem like that was her intention. But at the time I thought the divorce was clearly the right option. She disagreed.

[John Deloney]

Came out. Came out in what way? Came out that she's not attracted to you anymore. She's attracted to women.

[Caller Curtis]

What?

[John Deloney]

She came out How?

[Caller Josh]

So here's how she phrased it and this is what kind of caused the tailspin. She came out and said to me, josh, I'm gay now. For. For a little bit of backstory. She had come out to me before we got married as bi. That was something that I knew was aware of. We were both good with, like, hey, I beat out twice as many people that worked.

[John Deloney]

That's like the old chase a game you like, dude, I. I tried out 100% of the field, and you win. Yeah, okay.

[Caller Josh]

Yeah, yeah.

But then, you know, three weeks ago, she comes out and says, hey, I'm gay. And so for me, instantly, I'm thinking, okay, well, we don't have kids yet.

[Caller Curtis]

We.

[Caller Josh]

We are in a position where we could separate fairly quickly and easily.

[Caller Curtis]

What was.

[John Deloney]

What was the context of the coming out?

[Caller Josh]

Well, I didn't have a lot of. She has been kind of on a journey. Her mental health has had a lot of ups and downs, and she. Over the last. We've been married for just over three years now, and.

With me is kind of the first time she's had the emotional safety to do her own exploring of her own identity and in herself.

And so she's been working through that, a lot of it with me, but this part in particular, more so on her own with her therapist. And so she.

Has been embracing more of her queer identity. And that was what prompted her like, hey, you know, I don't want to hide this from you anymore, Josh. I want to share this with you. That this is. I'm embracing more of this side of my identity. And apparently, that's what she had intended to say. And when it came out with the words I'm gay, my immediate conclusion was, okay, you're a lesbian.

[John Deloney]

Yeah, but.

What'S the implication for. I'm going to explore this side of my identity outside of a. Outside of a. And by the way, I spent my. I spent my entire career with LGBT organizations in higher education. Okay. So, like, I've been through this conversation with 18 and 19 and 20 and 21 year olds and 25 year olds for two decades. Like, before, it was. It was. Everyone was talking about it. And after. Everybody's talking. Right. I haven't heard this conversation. I'm just going to explore this thing.

Outside, but not explore it.

[Caller Josh]

Yeah. I mean, and for her, I think she's still figuring out what that means. But the example she brought up and what is still driving me to consider divorce.

[Caller Curtis]

Because.

[Caller Josh]

Because I think if it had been phrased differently, it wouldn't have come up as a consideration. But she also mentioned Potentially opening up relationship. And she was very clear, like, if you say no, it is a hard no. I'm not going to try and force this open or anything along those lines. But the fact that she brought it up was, was a big deal for me because before we got married, that was a very clear shared value, like our definition of marriage. Part of that is monogamy. Yeah, yeah. Opening it up is not, is not part of that. And so now I'm at a place where, you know, I'm honored that I've created a safe place for her where she is, you know, feel free to ask these questions of herself. But my concern is now if her val. If her value has diverged that much from mine.

I don't, I don't, I don't know.

[Caller Curtis]

How to work with that.

[John Deloney]

So what's your question for me, man?

[Caller Josh]

I mean, what I'd like is for someone to tell me what to do. And.

[John Deloney]

I mean, here's. Let's get beneath the, the, the confusing part or the radioactive part. And the confusing radioactive part is you're trying to be a very open minded, kind, loving husband, right?

[Caller Josh]

Yes.

[John Deloney]

Okay. And your fiance or girlfriend lets you know, hey, I've been attracted to men and women and I picked you. Cool. Great. And we had this shared value of, of fidelity, monogamy. We had this shared value of fill in the blank, all of your shared values. This is who we're going to be. And then a couple years in, she comes to you and says, hey.

Actually.

It'S kind of thinking we could open this relationship up and have sex with more people. What do you think?

I want to get away from the identity conversation and from the straight and queer conversation. I want to get away from that a little bit. To the hurt guy that's sitting in front of me whose wife just said.

I have been exploring my identity and I have come to the realization that I don't think that you're enough. I want more.

Because that to me sounds like the pain point.

And as a supportive guy, you're trying to hold up. Okay, I've created a safe space. There's identity discussions. There's all sorts of things on the queer spectrum. There's all I want to get beneath that. To the guy that just has heartbroken because his wife said, ah, you're not enough. I'm thinking I want more.

[Caller Josh]

I guess I feel like, you know, there's, there's things I can handle and maybe even this I could handle, but I don't know. How much farther are we going to Diverge in values.

And where.

[John Deloney]

I don't think it's. I don't think it's the values conversation, brother.

I think it is. Your wife looked at you and said, I want somebody else. I want you. And some.

Or I've, quote, unquote, discovered myself and realized, man, if I could do this over, I wouldn't have done this with you. But I'm stuck with you now. Can we add somebody else?

[Caller Josh]

And she's denied that. She said that, you know, she's. I mean, even after that whole conversation, it sent her into a tailspin. She said she wished she could take it back because she loves me, she wants to be with me, okay. Finds me attractive. And that's all great, but I mean, and, And, And I fully believe her when she says there's not been someone else that she's, like, had her eyes on or anything along those lines, which helps, I think.

[John Deloney]

So. So if that's the case now, let's. Again, let's take off the radioactive part, the part that gets the Internet all fired up. And let's just say I've been married for 23 years and I've said some stupid things that, upon further examination, I didn't really mean.

Or I didn't mean them in the way they came across.

What is it about this situation that you're thinking, yeah, but I think I'm out.

[Caller Josh]

I think for me, like, I.

[John Deloney]

My wife has said things that hurt me, that upon further reflection, she's like, I didn't mean it like that. That's not what I. I said. I know I said those words, but that's not what I meant. And it hasn't occurred to me.

I'm out.

So for you, you heard this and then you heard, like, the. That's not what I meant. I'm sorry. What is it about this moment in time in your relationship with this person that you're saying, yeah, I can't go any further.

[Caller Josh]

I think for me, I want stability in a marriage.

[John Deloney]

Okay.

[Caller Josh]

And if. If. And, And I'm. I'm going to come back to the values. Not this specific. Those values are shifting. I feel like I don't have that stability.

[John Deloney]

And, and give me. And you. You've probably heard me say this on the show a million times. I always say couples have to be aligned in their values, but they can be all over the place with their beliefs. That's fine, right? What value.

Has shifted?

[Caller Josh]

Monogamy. I mean, she said that she won't do it if I'm not up for it. But just the fact that, like, that she open to the idea. Yeah, exactly.

[John Deloney]

Okay.

[Caller Josh]

Exactly.

[John Deloney]

Okay.

[Caller Josh]

And. Yeah.

[John Deloney]

What? Give me another value. Give me another value. Because I feel like a lot is hinging on this one, this one exploratory question.

[Caller Josh]

It is. It is. And that's a big part of my problem. And why, like, I, I.

[John Deloney]

What I'm challenging you. Is it. My gut tells me there's something deeper or there's something else.

[Caller Josh]

I think I'm just. I. I've just witnessed her change and grow as a person. And so I think what a lot of this is, is my internal fear that that's because. Because that's the. The biggest one far and away. There's nothing that even comes into the same category of things we've changed our mind on.

[John Deloney]

Okay. But when you sat down and said, hey, you said this thing, you proposed this, and I believe that if. If I had said, I'm in, I'm into this, you would have been all in. And that hurt me deeply that you would consider adding somebody else to our secret world. And she said, I didn't mean it. I'm sorry. I don't know. I was just kind of out of my mind. I'm sorry.

[Caller Josh]

Oh, I apologize. That's not what I meant to say.

[John Deloney]

Okay.

[Caller Josh]

What I meant to say was what. What I meant, the. What she communicated to me was that she is sorry that she worded it that way. She is sorry that she did not plan ahead how she was going to communicate this, but she still sees. She still sees opening up the relationship as something that's viable.

[John Deloney]

Okay. Okay. Gotcha. Okay. So y'. All. Y' all have a. Y' all have a values difference.

[Caller Curtis]

Yes.

[John Deloney]

Okay. And that's a significant one. And so you are. Okay, not now. I'm understanding. You are right to say. Okay, what's next?

[Caller Curtis]

Yeah, Yeah.

[Caller Josh]

I mean, and I believe her when she says, you know, without my consent, she wouldn't, you know, go out on our own and do that. But just the fact that we have this way different definition, it feels like this gulf that I don't know how to get across.

Or how to meet in the middle.

And. Yeah. What's next? What other values are we going to start diverging on?

[John Deloney]

I'm gonna free think for a second out loud. Is that okay?

[Caller Josh]

Dude, you go for it, man.

[John Deloney]

I remember a few years ago talking to a couple. One of the. One of the people had experienced some pretty significant trauma when they were a child. Okay. And. And it had kind of. There had been some hints about it, but it had never been fully discussed between the two of them.

And when it finally came out and they were having the conversation and this person said, I need to go do my trauma healing and my work.

There was this conver. Basically it was, you pause our life, I'm going to go over here and do. I'm going to pause our my life. I'm going to go over here and do my healing. You continue you.

And what I communicated to that couple is, hey, you have to do your own trauma healing. And.

Y' all are both different now. Your marriage is different now. And so any exploration of who you are is an exploration of who y' all are.

And what I'm hearing in your right. So somebody has to go to the therapist by themsel and do that hard work. But that can't happen in isolated secret because you got a partner over here. Because when you get married, one plus one equals one. You got a half of an entity over here going, okay, everything's changed. But I'm right here. I'm all by myself. I'm not hearing this, I'm not right. And so I hear your situation similar, which is we got married and we created this sacred safe place.

And then she said, I'm going to pause this thing. You keep going. I'm going over here to explore myself.

And she keeps coming back a different version and a different version and a different version.

And you're saying, hey, hey, hey, like every time you change, we change.

And that's very countercultural. We're not allowed to say those kind of things in culture anymore. But it's madness because when you're married, one plus one equals one.

And you're wondering how much more are you going to change? Because we're changing every time you change.

Does that sound right or am I out to lunch there?

[Caller Josh]

That is how I feel. I'm not going to say whether it's right or wrong because she, you know, she might. I mean, if we're, if we're so off, off our communication that we had this big of a misunderstanding, I don't want to say that that's correct, but it's how I feel. That's how I feel.

[John Deloney]

Okay.

[Caller Josh]

You nailed it.

[John Deloney]

Feelings are part of it.

Feelings are some data, but they're not always truth tellers.

Our feelings job is not to tell us the truth. They're to keep us safe.

So let me ask you the hard, hard question. What is true.

Inside your marriage?

Because I hear you trying to be open minded and open hearted and expansive and forgiving and inclusive. You're trying to be all of these things, but I want you to be honest about you, like, what is true in your marriage.

[Caller Josh]

We are very different people. Okay, than we were.

[John Deloney]

The sentence that's in my. In my head is the person you married no longer exists.

Is that too big? Is that too big of a stretch?

[Caller Josh]

We heard that before marriage. And like, we're gung ho. And embrace, like, yeah, you got to choose to love, you know, who you marry and who they're going to be five years from now. And I guess. I guess you don't think about what that actually means when they change.

[John Deloney]

And for me, that's the question you have to answer that I'm going to challenge you to not go ask anybody else. What should I do next? That's a decision that you have to own.

I appreciate the call, man. You're right, it's hard. Marriage is hard. Especially when one of you starts changing and really transforming and exploring new identities and wanting to try things that were formerly way out of bounds, values wise. And let's, you know, can we come back to the table and look at each other and say, okay, the marriage we had is over. You've come back and put some big new things on the table. A new identity, a new sexual orientation, a new sexual practice you want to try that includes bringing other people in.

Do we want to build a new marriage together?

And that's the question all of us have to ask. Thanks for the call, brother. I appreciate you. We come back, a man asks how to confront his best friend after finding out he was hiding an abortion.

With you being gone over the holidays, you gotta ask yourself, who's gonna be watching your home while you're gone? And that's why I'm excited to tell you about COVID Cove is a smart, affordable home security company with the mission of helping protect your family. For less than a dollar a day, the holidays can make your home a target for thieves and porch pirates. But Cove cameras stream live video and audio directly to your control panel and your phone so you can see and hear what's happening in real time. That kind of clarity and control over your home can help give you peace of mind, even, and especially when you're away traveling for the holidays. Cove lets you customize your security system with a quick online quiz so you only get what your home actually needs, not a bunch of extra stuff that cost a jillion more dollars. Setup is simple. You can do it yourself. And it usually takes about 30 minutes. And every system comes with a 60 day risk free trial. December is the perfect time to protect your home with COVID Cove is offering an exclusive holiday sale for my audience. Visit covesmart.com and use code Deloney at checkout for up to 80% off your first order. That's right, up to 80% off. This is the easiest decision you'll make all year. Go to Cove C o v e covesmart.com and use code Deloney.

All right, let's go out to Fargo, North Dakota and talk to Curtis. What's up, Curtis?

[Caller Curtis]

Oh, nothing much. Just here to get some help and some advice.

[John Deloney]

You got it, brother. Let it rip. What's up?

[Caller Curtis]

All right, well, I'll start with this. Well, I just found out about two weeks ago, my best friend's girlfriend's birthday, that she kind of trauma dumped me and said that my, My best friend made her get. Not made her, but suggested, adamantly suggested that she get an abortion. And she did. And that didn't sit right with me. He lied to me. He never told me that, ever.

[John Deloney]

What did he say when you confronted him?

[Caller Curtis]

I haven't confronted him yet.

[John Deloney]

Hold on. How good of a friend is he?

[Caller Curtis]

I. He was my best friend. I've known him since I was 12. I'm 20 years old. So.

[John Deloney]

I mean, what kept you from walking right over at the party?

[Caller Curtis]

Well, he was. He wasn't there at the time, so.

[John Deloney]

Or that you walked out and picked up the phone. I, I'm struggling. I got some ride or die buddies, man. And that kind of, that kind of conversation, whether it's about abortion, whether it's about new girlfriend, whether it's about any number of, of life challenges.

Like what has kept you quiet for so, for so long.

[Caller Curtis]

I'm just. I don't know how to deal with it. It just shocks me. I'm still, like, I'm still grieving that in some ways too. And it's just, just that you're grieving that.

[John Deloney]

Like, do you have a strong feeling about abortion? Or is it that he kept a secret from you or is that you.

[Caller Curtis]

Thought like the loss of life, that's a big one. And then like the line too.

[John Deloney]

Okay, I guess, I guess at. On the outset, as a guy with some old school buddies, I got buddies that are more than 40 years old. We got values all over the planet that are different from each other, especially we got beliefs, all different, different. But you better believe we pick up the phone and call each other and I'm wondering how good this friendship was.

[Caller Curtis]

Yeah.

[John Deloney]

Or maybe, maybe it's so.

[Caller Curtis]

I don't think we talk seriously like that. I would say, I mean, I think.

[John Deloney]

Step one is to call your friend and go, bro.

[Caller Curtis]

Yeah.

Yeah, for sure.

[John Deloney]

And this might be a stunner.

But sometimes girlfriends don't tell the truth too.

[Caller Curtis]

Yeah.

[John Deloney]

Could there be a chance that that story is just one sided?

[Caller Curtis]

I don't, I. I don't think so. She seemed very sincere when she told me this.

[John Deloney]

Okay. I think your friend of eight years, almost a decade, is at least worth a phone call to find out.

[Caller Curtis]

Yeah, certainly.

[John Deloney]

And I guess I'll say this. The. One of the hardest lessons I've had to learn in my life is that friendships that were ride or die for a decade, for two decades. People grow up and they grow apart and it's one of the. There's no breakup with your buddies.

[Caller Curtis]

Right?

[John Deloney]

Right. I don't know. Like, when you're, when you break up with a girlfriend you like.

It'S just like over. Like we breaking up. It's like all these other, these rules. Like, we don't call each other or text each other or whatever. If we get a divorce, there's like legal proceedings. When you have buddies that like, you got in fights with in elementary school and middle school and high school and y' all did things together and y' all spent the night each other's houses and y' all wouldn't like when suddenly you're like, oh, I didn't know you were that. Dude. I'm out. There's not, there's not a set of rules after that.

[Caller Curtis]

Yeah, that's. That's the uncertainty I'm trying to address here. Certainly.

[John Deloney]

I. I'll tell you, I don't know if I use the word confront, but.

I just know I love my friends, especially my guy friends.

[Caller Curtis]

Yeah.

[John Deloney]

I love them with my life. I love them with my family's life after I'm dead, whether it's their. An executor of my will or like, whatever.

And so I don't know if it's the word confront as much as.

My hope is right when we get off this, this call, you pick up the phone and say, bro, we got to talk. Are you all in the same town?

Yeah, dude, I'm coming over tonight. We got to talk.

[Caller Curtis]

Certainly.

[John Deloney]

And by the way, you don't have to make any calls or decisions tonight.

But like, if he confirms exactly what she told him, then you need say, like, man, I need some time to wrap my head around this one. You're not the guy I thought you were. You're not the man I thought you were.

[Caller Curtis]

Certainly.

[John Deloney]

And if it played out like he. Like she said it did, he's probably hurting, too, huh?

[Caller Curtis]

Yeah. That's the thing is, like, he's. From what she's told me, and I haven't reached out to him, so I should definitely verify. But she's told me that he's been very. Like. When she. When she went to get this abortion. And then she was. First of all, my best friend wasn't even there when he got. When she got the abortion. And then when she came back and talked to Luke after the whole, you know, abortion process, he said, well, she wanted to keep the baby. And he said, you know, you probably only wanted to keep this baby just so you could keep me around. So that's another thing to address as well. Does that seem very manipulative and shallow and deceitful?

[John Deloney]

It is. But also, people say crazy things when they're scared to death. Certainly I'm not giving him a pass, but I'm saying that a dude probably know what day it is. And that's. Yes. Objectively, on the outside for me and you. That's a really scumbag thing to say to somebody.

[Caller Curtis]

Yeah.

[John Deloney]

That you're trying to peer pressure into doing something that's against her value leaves.

But I'm wondering if the thing he needs on the front end of all of this is a hug from his oldest friend of the world.

Maybe not. Maybe you need to go punch him in the mouth. But it sounds like he needs a hug. It sounds like he is spinning out all by himself. And if he looks at you and he rolls back.

And is like, bro, you don't know what you're saying. You don't know, like, you know what I mean?

Here's what I'll tell you. I don't think I've ever told this on this show, ever.

I'm hesitating to even say it out loud.

I will.

My oldest friend on the planet is a paraplegic. He's in a car wreck after college.

The last conversation we had with each other was me confronting him on something. And I only had one piece of the information.

And it came out later that I was wrong.

And the last words we ever said to each other are not repeatable on this show.

[Caller Curtis]

Sorry to hear that.

[John Deloney]

I tell you that to tell you the greatest gift you can give a friend is the benefit of the doubt.

[Caller Curtis]

Correct.

[John Deloney]

And the chance to be honest and tell the truth.

And if this has been your ride or die buddy, your best friend for going on a decade, he's earned the right for a face to face, man to man conversation. Definitely don't make the same mistake I did going in guns a blazing.

[Caller Curtis]

Yeah. Yeah.

[John Deloney]

Because at least in my case, I was wrong.

Cool.

[Caller Curtis]

That definitely. That definitely brings clarification to it because I. When I first heard that, I was not in the mental capacity to deal with that. I was just so angry.

[John Deloney]

I know. But your friends, your friends deserve your anger, too.

[Caller Curtis]

Yes, certainly.

[John Deloney]

And they deserve your celebration, too, too. That's the definition of a friend. Can you say the hard stuff, too? Can you save the dark stuff, too? And can you celebrate together? That's what a friend does. It's all three of them.

[Caller Curtis]

Certainly.

[John Deloney]

Yeah. When you get off the phone call, dude, set up a time to go meet with him tonight.

[Caller Curtis]

I will.

[John Deloney]

And at least give him a chance to hear himself out. I think he's earned that. Friends are worth the benefit of the doubt. And then if he says, he confirms everything, like, yeah, dude, this and this and this and this, this. Then you take 24 hours and you got. You got some choices to make, some decisions to make about the men you want in your life.

[Caller Curtis]

Right.

[John Deloney]

I'm not in the habit of hanging out with men that pressure women to do things and to make accusations against women and who violate value. Like, I don't hang out with those dudes.

[Caller Curtis]

Right.

[John Deloney]

And it's right to be sad. If this has been a buddy that you found out when things got hard, who he really was, that's heartbreaking.

Right?

[Caller Curtis]

Yeah.

Yeah. I was a. Certainly a tough night when I heard all that.

[John Deloney]

Yeah. And for whether. For clarification, I've got friends on both sides of that issue. Close friends on both sides of that issue.

[Caller Curtis]

Yeah.

[John Deloney]

And so that's not necessarily a deal breaker. The deal breaker is can we be honest with each other?

[Caller Curtis]

Right.

Yeah.

[John Deloney]

So I wish you the best, my brother. Make that phone call and then go, go, go hug your buddy and then stare him eye to eye and you'll have a hard conversation tonight.

[Caller Curtis]

Yeah.

[John Deloney]

And if you need to leave tonight, look at him in the eye and say, never ever lie to me. I'm your friend.

Cool?

[Caller Curtis]

Yes, sir.

[John Deloney]

All right, man. It's been an honor talking to you. I wish you the best. Let me know how that conversation goes. And if he wants to holler in, I'd love to talk to him, too. We'll be right back.

I can't even believe that I'm saying this, But Montana Knife Company has joined the Dr. John DeLoney show team. I just got back from a wild Elk hunt in New Mexico. And thankfully, I had my Montana Knife Company knives to help me take care of business. Everyone knows that me and my son are big hunters and big fishermen. And I'm always telling people that my wife is one of the best cooks on the planet. It and for years I've used one company for every knife that I need, both in the wild and in the kitchen. Montana Knife Company. I bought these knives with my own money. They're that amazing. These knives are designed, tested, and built by real hunters and real cooks. My family and I use these knives everywhere from the deepest parts of the woods to our kitchen to cookouts in the backyard, everywhere. Every Montana Knife Company knife comes with a multi generational guarantee. If it ever needs sharpening, just send it back and they'll sharpen it for free and send it right back to you. Montana Knife Company knives make incredible holiday gifts and they always, always sell out before Christmas. So don't wait. Montana Knife Co. Knives are proudly made in the United States of America. And I'm telling you, you will not be disappointed. Go to montanaknifecompany.com to see what's available right now. Now that's montanaknifecompanya.com.

All right, Kelly, am I the problem?

[Kelly]

All right, so this is from Matthew in Oklahoma City and he writes dear John and Kelly and team.

[John Deloney]

You always add that.

[Kelly]

It's right here in writing. Yeah, this can be. We'll skip that part.

[Caller Josh]

Blah, blah, blah, blah.

[Kelly]

My wife and I have been married for just under two years. We are both 23. We've gotten to travel a few times, just the two of us, to various national parks to hike and camp. And we love that type of travel travel. But we are also saving for future years when we can travel abroad together as well. My mom wants to take us traveling, quote, anywhere in the world that excites us, but one at a time so that she can get to know us individually.

[John Deloney]

No.

[Kelly]

And so that she doesn't feel like a third wheel. Are we the problem for not wanting to see parts of the world apart from each other?

[John Deloney]

No.

[Kelly]

How do we communicate the appreciation for a trip offer but not a desire to travel to places that we would only get to see once but without our spouse?

[John Deloney]

That's divide and conquer. That's not getting to know one person. Person getting to know one person is like my dad and my wife used to go have like Chinese food every. Like when they, when we first got married, they went out once a week when I was like in class or doing Like I think I was when I was coaching and I had games, they would go out and have dinner. That's getting to know each other, right? Like that's hanging out. I want to take you to Italy for two weeks while you stay at home. Just like that's divide and conquer. I'm out on this one. What do you think? I might be. I might be over judging it, but this one just doesn't sit right with me at all.

[Kelly]

I agree. I mean my, my late mother in law I would have happily gone anywhere with because we would have had a great time. But that was also, you know, us being married for 20 years. And she was delightful. But she never would have said, I want to take you both somewhere, but I want to do it separately. She never would have offered that. I mean.

She never would have thought that way. It might have been like a girls trip or something. But yeah, I think it's super weird to say I'll take you anywhere you want to go in the world one at a time, but without your spouse. Which that's the kind of thing you want to share with your spouse.

[Caller Josh]

House.

[Kelly]

Yeah, to me it's really weird.

[John Deloney]

Yeah, dude.

[Kelly]

I don't know if she has nefarious like motives about it.

But it's weird regardless. Even if it's not, I'm trying to divide and conquer. It's still weird.

[John Deloney]

Yeah, I'm out with an OT on that one. If you want to get to know each other, go hang out on a regular basis in consistent chunks.

Not.

[Kelly]

And doesn't she know her son?

[John Deloney]

No. I gotta really get to know. That's what I'm saying. This thing's whole thing sounds shady. She's the real shady. Yes, she's the real shady. All the other slim shadies, they're just imitating. I don't talk bad about your new mother in law, but run, run. That's all I got to say about that. I don't know if that's D4. What do you think about that one way in home? Me?

Yeah, it feels weird to specifically say, hey, your spouse is not invited, like to call it out. Like, I don't know. I wouldn't have made that call.

I'm going to get us in trouble. Let's bounce. Love you guys. Stay out of trouble. Bye.