How Do I Convince My Sister to Leave Her Husband?

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Dr. John DeLoney Show

Episode Title: How Do I Convince My Sister to Leave Her Husband?
Release Date: March 28, 2025
Host: Dr. John DeLoney, Ramsey Network
Description: The Dr. John DeLoney Show is a caller-driven program offering real talk on relationships and mental health challenges. Listeners are encouraged to engage by sending questions via voicemail or email.

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1. Caller Segment: Veronica from Morgantown, West Virginia

Issue:
Veronica seeks advice on how to persuade her sister to leave her husband, whom she believes is emotionally manipulative and detrimental to her sister's well-being.

Discussion Highlights:

• Background: Veronica's sister has been married since high school. Over time, Veronica has observed concerning behaviors in her brother-in-law, such as emotional manipulation and unmet promises.

• Character Profile: Veronica describes her sister as a kind, caring, and devoted individual who often stretches herself thin to support others, including her work as a nurse and her role as a mother.

• Emotional Impact: Veronica is deeply troubled by her sister's deteriorating happiness and feels powerless to effect change without damaging her relationship with her sister.

Advice from Dr. John DeLoney:

• Avoid Direct Criticism: Dr. DeLoney advises against directly attacking the brother-in-law, as this can create a wedge between Veronica and her sister.

• Focus on Sister's Self-Worth: Instead of highlighting the husband's flaws, Veronica should emphasize her sister's value and encourage her to recognize her own worth.

  "[05:13] Dr. DeLoney: 'If she stays with him, then you have driven a wedge between you two.'"

• Conversation Approach: Initiate a heartfelt conversation expressing love and concern without making her sister choose between Veronica and her husband.

  "[10:27] Dr. DeLoney: 'If your goal is to make sure you're heard... plant some seeds...'"

Conclusion:
Veronica should adopt a supportive stance, fostering her sister's self-advocacy and confidence, rather than confronting the husband directly.

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2. Caller Segment: Marie from New Hampshire

Issue:
Marie, a 25-year-old nanny, is grappling with supporting a family in crisis while managing her own personal priorities, including her recent marriage.

Discussion Highlights:

• Workplace Dynamics: Marie has taken on increased responsibilities as the family's father abruptly left, turning her role into an unofficial caregiver and emotional support for the family.

• Emotional Toll: The added responsibilities have led to burnout, leaving Marie feeling undervalued and overextended.

• Personal Life: Marie balances her demanding job with her marriage, where her husband has been supportive by taking on additional household responsibilities.

Advice from Dr. John DeLoney:

• Set Professional Boundaries: Dr. DeLoney emphasizes the importance of maintaining clear boundaries to avoid becoming overwhelmed.

  "[19:43] Dr. DeLoney: 'You're free to go...' "

• Evaluate the Work Environment: If the employer is unwilling to adjust expectations or compensate for the increased workload, Marie should consider leaving to protect her mental health.

  "[24:31] Dr. DeLoney: 'You're free to go.'..."

• Self-Care and Support: Acknowledge her right to prioritize her well-being and seek employment where her contributions are respected and valued.

Conclusion:
Marie should prioritize her mental and emotional health by establishing boundaries or potentially seeking employment elsewhere if her current role remains unsustainable.

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3. Caller Segment: Theo from Alberta, Canada

Issue:
Theo, a 26-year-old lawyer specializing in family litigation, is contemplating leaving his career due to emotional exhaustion and dissatisfaction with the legal system.

Discussion Highlights:

• Career Satisfaction: Despite loving the substantive aspects of law, Theo is disillusioned by the adversarial nature of family litigation, systemic inefficiencies, and the emotional strain of dealing with distressed clients.

• Personal Life: Theo maintains a strong support system with his wife, engages in creative outlets like playing guitar, and participates in community activities.

• Existential Crisis: He is experiencing a mid-career crisis, questioning whether he should continue in a profession that deeply impacts his mental health.

Advice from Dr. John DeLoney:

• Acknowledge the Difficulty: Dr. DeLoney validates Theo's struggles, assuring him that feeling overwhelmed in such a demanding field is not a sign of weakness.

  "[43:09] Dr. DeLoney: 'What you're doing is hard and you're not broken.'"

• Evaluate Readiness to Change: Using the starfish analogy, focus on making meaningful impacts on individuals rather than trying to fix the entire system.

  "[33:14] Dr. DeLoney: 'I can make that switch...'"

• Transition Plans: Encourage taking a break or shifting focus within the legal field to find a balance that preserves his well-being while maintaining professional fulfillment.

Conclusion:
Theo should introspect to determine his readiness to either continue in his current role with adjusted boundaries or transition to a new career path that aligns better with his mental and emotional health.

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4. Caller Segment: Kelly from Washington

Issue:
Kelly questions whether she is the problem in her relationship because her boyfriend of six years continues to mark his ex-girlfriend's birthday on their shared calendar, despite knowing it bothers her.

Discussion Highlights:

• Relationship Dynamics: Kelly feels insecure and uncomfortable with her boyfriend keeping his ex's birthday on a family calendar, raising concerns about unresolved feelings or boundaries.

• Emotional Underpinnings: She recognizes that her discomfort may stem from deeper insecurities about the relationship and her place within it.

Advice from Dr. John DeLoney:

• Open Communication: Dr. DeLoney encourages honest dialogue between Kelly and her boyfriend to address underlying issues beyond the calendar entry.

  "[52:17] Dr. DeLoney: 'I don't care what anybody says. It will always be weird...'"

• Assessing the Relationship: Determine if this behavior is a standalone issue or indicative of broader relationship concerns.

• Setting Boundaries: Suggest removing the ex’s birthday from shared calendars to establish clear boundaries, fostering mutual respect and understanding.

Conclusion:
Kelly should engage in transparent conversations with her boyfriend to address her feelings and establish appropriate boundaries, ensuring the health and trust within their relationship.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Veronica's Segment:

  "[05:13] Dr. DeLoney: 'If she stays with him, then you have driven a wedge between you two.'"

• Marie's Segment:

  "[24:31] Dr. DeLoney: 'You're free to go.'..."

• Theo's Segment:

  "[43:09] Dr. DeLoney: 'What you're doing is hard and you're not broken.'"

• Kelly's Segment:

  "[52:17] Dr. DeLoney: 'I don't care what anybody says. It will always be weird...'"

---

Insights and Conclusions

Throughout the episode, Dr. John DeLoney emphasizes the importance of setting healthy boundaries, prioritizing one's mental and emotional well-being, and approaching sensitive conversations with empathy and support rather than confrontation. Whether dealing with family members, workplace dynamics, career crises, or romantic relationships, the underlying theme is self-advocacy and fostering relationships built on mutual respect and understanding.

Listeners are encouraged to engage thoughtfully with their challenges, seek support when needed, and make decisions that align with their personal values and well-being.

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Note: Advertisements and sponsored segments were present in the episode but have been omitted from this summary to focus on the core content and listener interactions.

Transcript

[Veronica]

How do I tell my sister that I don't think her husband is right for her?

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Oof. That is some thin eyes, Sister Veronica.

[Veronica]

Yes.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

So let me ask you, what's your ultimate goal for the. For, like a big conversation? You want to leave him? What up? What's going on? This is Josh John, the Dr. John DeLoney show, taking your calls on your marriages and your life and your brothers and sisters and kids and mental and emotional health, whatever you got going on in your life. I don't know very much, but I know I can sit down with hurting people and listen and just show up and we can together figure out what's the next right step. I've been doing this for over two decades, and it's one of my great honors. When somebody calls and says, hey, the lights have gone out and I need a little bit of a. Of a. Of someone to hold a candle up so I can figure out what's the next right move. If that's you, give me a buzz at 1-844-693-3291 or go to john deloney.com. ask real people going through real challenges all over the planet. It means the world to me if you will take one second, hit the subscribe button or the clicks and just tell the Internets that you like the show and whatever way you know how to do that. I don't know how that works, but if you would do that for the show, I really appreciate it. Puts it up in the algorithms, and it puts the show in front of more and more people. Thank you for blessing your neighbors. All right, let's go out to Morgantown, West Virginia, and talk to Ms. Veronica Mars. What's up, Veronica?

[Veronica]

Hello, Dr. John. How are you?

[Dr. John DeLoney]

I'm good. What's up?

[Veronica]

So I'll just get right into it. My question for you is, how do I tell my sister that I don't think her husband is right for her?

[Dr. John DeLoney]

That is some thin eyes, Sister Veronica.

[Veronica]

Yes.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

So tell me what's going on?

[Veronica]

So I'll give you a little backstory. My sister has been with her husband since high school. I've known him for quite some time as well. We were all friends in high school and then beyond. But whenever they got engaged and then married, I felt like his true colors started to come out.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

What does that mean?

[Veronica]

So he started, in my opinion, to get really manipulative emotionally with my sister. Just different things that she would want. He would always find some way to say that, like convince her that she didn't want them. A small example in the past was she wanted this certain type of dog that she had growing up. And he said, no, we can't have a dog right now. We don't have a big enough house. And then turned around and convinced her to get a mastiff, which is a really large dog. And that's just a little thing. But things like that over the years have piled up, and I feel like it's just getting worse and worse and worse.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Tell me about your sister.

[Veronica]

So she's a really kind and caring person. She is the oldest of the three of us, so she's got that big sister energy about her. She has always gone to bat for me and my younger sister. She's also been like a guiding light for us, but her friends as well. She works as a nurse. She's very caring, and she's a very devoted mother to her two children. And I feel like she stretches herself thin for everyone in her life and doesn't always get a lot in return, which is hard to see.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yes. And that. That's your entry point. I would be very careful. Unless you are witnessing violence or you're witnessing abuse, then, of course, I'm going to throw myself right in the middle of it. To protect people. Right. If there's just a continued. This guy sucks. He's just lame. I don't like him. I want people to be careful. I want you to be careful about talking about how bad he is. Because here's the thing. If she stays. If she stays with him, then you have driven a wedge between you two.

[Veronica]

Yes.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And you're making her choose between this guy and her sister. Don't do. Don't. Don't put her in that situation. The approach is, hey, I think you're worth more than the life you have right now. And I don't know if you can see it. And you're smart and wise and beautiful, and maybe you're choosing this, but as your little sister, I just want you to tell you I love you and I see so much more. Like, what do you mean? And then you can begin to lay out, like, here's what I think you're worth. And then she's going to have to make some grownup choices on her own. So let me ask you, what's your ultimate goal for the. For, like, a big conversation? You want to leave him?

[Veronica]

See, I've debated this for quite some time.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Or do you want to be on record? Like, what would your goal of the conversation be?

[Veronica]

I guess just for her to realize that the treatment that she's been Putting up with for quite some time isn't necessarily normal or all that she could have in a relationship.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Do you think that she doesn't know that?

[Veronica]

I think she tells herself that she is fine. But there was an incident last year where it was the first time she had opened up to me about being upset with her husband. She unfortunately lost a baby at 20 weeks pregnant. And, yeah, it was really a challenging time for my whole family, especially just to see just that level of loss. And she took some time off, of course, for work, and her husband did as well. And she called me very upset one day and said that he had been staying up all night playing video games and then sleeping all day and not being present with her. And she said, this is just how it always is. And she kind. That was the first time I had ever heard her speak ill against him. And I tried to be fair at that time because she was going through a lot. I didn't want to overload her with all of my feelings towards her husband. But I said, you know, that's not what you need right now from a partner. You know, you need more support than this whenever you're going through something this huge. And she agreed. And I thought maybe that would be the catalyst for some change to happen. But then things went right back to the way they always are in their relationship. And I do recognize I'm not there all the time. And I have seen really good qualities in him, but it just seems like there's more and more and more disappointment that my sister faces. And it's just. It's really, really hard to watch.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And maybe the bravest thing you can do is not throw a grenade in their living room. Maybe the bravest thing you can do is to put up your own boundaries. For instance, I see this and I'm going to choose to not be around him anymore. And I know that's hard for both of us. But when I think back to the way my husband treats me through these things, that's the kind of man I want to be around. And I can't be around your husband when he's ignoring you and playing video games. I can't be around him when he's making jokes and swearing. I don't know what he does around you guys. Part of it sounds like a guy who's grown into a man who doesn't have any tools. I hear a lot, like, I don't know many young husbands who know how to grieve the loss of a pregnancy.

[Veronica]

That makes sense.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And some go to work like Crazy. And some play video games and crash and sleep. That's called some. Some in some places called depression. Some get in fights. Right. And some have a road map for how to deal with a grieving partner because of something happened in their life growing up or something. Right. Or they have some friends who reach out and say, hey, here's what has to happen next. And so some of it might be he's just immature and doesn't have a good road map. And that's what. That's why I always want to be careful. Because if your sister is struggling and she has never said, hey, here's what I need right now, she's got to take some ownership of that, too. And maybe she is, like, being very clear, and he's like, yeah, I don't really care about that. That's. That's why, like I say, throwing a grenade in the middle of this, if he's just kind of a bum or just kind of a manchild or just kind of like, he doesn't know, maybe it's you telling your sister, I feel like I want to talk to him. I mean, I. I'm just throwing things out there. I just know. Don't do that. I take that back. Don't do. Don't do that. I guess I want you to go back to what your goals are. If your goal is to break up the marriage or your goal is to plant some seeds so that she breaks up this marriage, I would tell you to be very cautious about that.

[Veronica]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

If your goal is to. I want to make sure I'm heard. Knock your lights out. But every time that's somebody's goal, that always comes with consequences. And if you're okay with the consequences, cool. If your goal is for your sister to recognize that she is worth more than the life she's living right now, then that's a totally different conversation. That's less about how much her husband is leaving things to be desired, and it's more about teaching her how to advocate for herself, teaching her how to speak up, teaching her that she doesn't have to work so much, helping her with budgets, like, things like that, that have some real world. What's the right word? Confidence building tools. Right.

[Veronica]

Yeah. So I feel like that would be the better avenue to go down.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

I think so. And maybe you sit down and say, hey, I can't get that conversation we had in a year ago. I can't get out of my mind. And I feel like our whole life, you as big sister had that. That maternal energy you took care of us. And. And I just need to flip it around and I'm feeling a need to take care of you because I'm watching my big sister kind of wither away. And you are a hilarious, fun, powerful, strong, whatever adjectives describe her. But I'm just kind of watching the life drain out of you, and I want you to not see you, and I see you kind of just slowly. And I think your husband's a goof. I think he's a nerd. I think he. Whatever word you want to use, I don't care. You're talking to your sister. You kind of say what you want, but how can I love you in this season? And I think that's just a place to start. And for everybody listening, just know there's a before and after. You sit down and say, I think your husband or wife is the worst. I think you should leave them. I think they shouldn't have done what they did. I think you deserve this and this, and they can't provide that. Just know there's a before and after, because if, say, if they stay, they will always know what you said about their spouse. If they choose to heal things inside their home, you're not there every day. Like you mentioned, like Veronica just mentioned, you're not there every day. So you're on the outside of that coming together. And you'll always be on the outside of that coming together. So unless there is a I need to blow this thing up right now because somebody's getting hurt, somebody's. There's infidelity, and we know about it and we're just calling it. Just be careful before you throw that grenade because that blast radius usually gets everybody. Thank you for the call, Veronica. Just ask yourself, what is my goal of this conversation? To blow up a marriage or to help my sister have a better life? And sometimes the answer to those two things are radically different. We'll be right back. Let's talk about Hallow, the number one prayer and meditation app in the world. It's officially Lent, which are the 40 days leading up to Good Friday and Easter. And Lent is when Christians all over the world commit to a season of fasting from all sorts of things, and they commit themselves to reconnection and remembering, prayer and meditation. And right now, Hallow has a challenge going on called the way. It's meant to reflect living the way of Jesus. And that means doing hard things that lead to peace, joy, and healing. And throughout the way, you'll get to hear some incredible stories from people like Jonathan Roumie of the chosen Chris Pratt and Mark Wahlberg. And you'll also be invited to participate. Participate in experiencing life. Change yourself. Plus, you can check out Hallow's Lint Challenge for kids. It's called the Little Way. It's a fun, meaningful adventure for the whole family. And y'all will follow along with two kids learning how to live out gratitude every single day. And this is just a tiny bit of what Hallow offers. Hallow has a huge catalog of music, guided prayers, meditations, and more. And when you sign [e-mail] Deloney you'll get three months for free. So you're covered all through Lent and beyond. Go check out [e-mail] DeLoney for three free months. That's Hallow. H a l l o w.com DeLoney all right, listen good folks. There's no such thing as mental health. Separate from physical health, separate from emotional health. There's just health. It all works together and everything's connected. It's almost impossible to be whole in one area and struggling mightily in another. If you're ready to make positive physical changes that can help restore some balance to your whole self, check out TrainWell. TrainWell offers tailored workouts with step by step guidance from real people. That means it's not just an app and it's not just a personal trainer. It's the best of both worlds. To get started, you just answer a few questions about your fitness journey. You hop on a chat with an expert trainer to discuss your goals and make a personalized plan. And then it's time for you to get to work. As you complete workouts, your trainer will keep tweaking them to help you get better. I love the workouts. My wife loves them, and we both love how they adapt to our travel schedules. TrainWell takes away our excuses and makes working out easy. And they can do it for you, too. If you're ready to start taking control of your physical health, take the quiz to find your Perfect [e-mail] Deloney today, they still have a special offer just for my audience. 69amonth. When you lock in your plan, that's almost 50 off their regular monthly rate plus 14 days of free [e-mail] Deloney that's T R A I N trainwell.net Deloney go check them out. Let's go out to New Hampshire and talk to dear Marie. What's up, Marie?

[Marie]

Hello.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

How's it going?

[Marie]

I'm good. How are you?

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Excellent, Excellent. What's up?

[Marie]

I wanted to ask your advice on something. My question is how can I support a family in crisis while balancing my own priorities?

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Tell me more.

[Marie]

So I am a nanny. I take care of two children. I've been with this current family for a little over two and a half years, and they, the parents are going through some marital issues. The dad has been inconsistent with his presence. He kind of left abruptly a few weeks ago. And the mom and I are just kind of picking up the pieces and trying to manage the household without him, even though he was primary caregiver of the children when I'm not there and, you know, handled so much.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

So. Marie, already your language is making me get squirmy.

[Marie]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

How old are you?

[Marie]

I'm 25.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

25. Okay. You have taken on a ton of responsibility for this workplace.

[Marie]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And I know being a nanny is a different level of like, you become part of the family. Right. I get that in, in, in a way. And also you're an employee.

[Veronica]

Yeah. It's.

[Marie]

It's tricky to navigate sometimes.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yes. So I'm going to take a crass approach. Let's take nanny off the table. Let's say you worked at a local gas station and the two assistant managers, one of them just like quit showing up all the time. Would you feel the need to do the assistant manager job and to fill that role for the same pay, even though that's not your job? It's not your job description. Even though you can't affect anything that's going on between the two assistant managers or.

[Marie]

I probably wouldn't.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

I know. And my guess is this is impacting your home life too, right?

[Marie]

Yes, yes. I, I actually just got married in December and.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Oh, yikes. How's that going at home?

[Marie]

It's. It's been great. I have a lovely husband. Can't say anything negative about him.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Oh, no, no. I'm going to talk about that. Yeah. I assume your marriage is great. I'm saying yeah. Working all day for a family that's falling apart while trying to start your own has to be challenging.

[Marie]

Very challenging. Yeah. I definitely felt burnt out these past few weeks taking on the extra responsibilities, and it's just left me with nothing to come home with. My husband has been, you know, taking on a lot of those responsibilities that were mine at home as a result.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

So go a year down the road. What's the long term? What's your long term vision for this arrangement? The language I hear you using is you are the pseudo father of this household now.

[Veronica]

Oh, yikes.

[Marie]

I don't want to be.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

I know, but that means you have to have professional boundaries. And so when mom says, oh my gosh, my husband's abandoning us, I need you to ABCD EFG and give you a whole bunch of new stuff. You have to understand, essentially your contract is being renegotiated. Live.

[Veronica]

Right.

[Marie]

Right.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And you get to, as an employee, say, that's not what I signed up for or I don't have capacity for that new job.

[Marie]

Yeah. So I, I did try to bring this up to her recently, this, this past Friday. And it. A lot of emotions came up on her end initially. She said, well, you know, I just need someone here that can, that can handle it, that can help me out, that I need help more than ever. And just really putting that pressure on me, making me feel like if I, you know, speak up on. On what's troubling me, feeling burnt out too much, then I could lose my position. She'll just replace me with someone who's willing to just do it, you know, work full time, overtime, no break, like. Like I have been for the past few weeks.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And so for whatever it's worth to you, Marie, your supervisor, your boss, your leader, whatever you want to call her, changed your business arrangement. And I know it gets messy because there's kids involved and you love those kids and you pick them up and you take them to eat and you'll laugh and you play and you fold their underwear. I get all that. And yeah, you're not a doormat either. And if she thinks so little of you, that you saying out loud, hey, you changed our business arrangement. I want to talk about it. And I've got a new marriage. That she looks at you and says, I'll just replace you. Then you've learned all you need to know about your place of employment. And for whatever it's worth, I hate that she's treating you like this.

[Marie]

Yeah, no, I know it's not her intention, but I feel like she's. She's been put in a tough time spot.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

But people put in tough spot can still treat the people around them with dignity and respect and kindness. Even if it's taking you out to coffee saying, hey, obviously my life just blew up. I'm going to need some extra help. I want to offer you to fill that gap. I'm going to pay you this much more. I'm going to do X, Y and Z. I'm g. Need that. That's how people of integrity handle things. That's the owner of the gas station calling you and Saying you're a great employee, the assistant manager is a flake, and I need some extra help. Here's what I can do. Are you interested? Not looking at you. Saying, if you don't do all this extra work for the same money and absorb everything from a missing father, then you're somehow disloyal to me. I'm going to replace you. That's lame. That's just lame, dude. It's just, it's dishonoring. Are those the kids in the background?

[Marie]

They are, yes. I, I, I haven't had much of a break these past few weeks. It's. I'm sorry.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

No, don't be sorry. I, it just, it gives a re. I'm glad this is. I'm glad. I can hear that. It provides a reality for the world you're in. You can't even make a phone call.

[Marie]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

So for whatever it's worth, Maria's not okay.

[Marie]

Mm.

[Veronica]

Yeah.

[Marie]

I know.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

There's a.

[Marie]

There's that people pleaser tendency in me to just, you know, grit and bear it and, you know, I have my faith to fall back on. I don't feel like I'm going to break, but it is difficult and it does make me wonder if I really need to be in this situation. I had feelings even before this happened, even before he left that it was starting to become an unhealthy work environment. Not really being appreciated the way I feel like I should, but.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And your answer has been confirmed.

[Marie]

Yeah, I guess so. I guess so.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Completely and totally. The fact that there wasn't a sit down with you, like, oh, my gosh, I can't do this, but I'm so grateful for you. I understand. My world just blew up. I don't want it to blow up yours too. Here's my new reality. That's just how you treat somebody in the middle of a mess.

[Marie]

Yeah.

[Veronica]

Yeah.

[Marie]

I feel like I. She's had to lean on me for emotional support a bit in this situation, so.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

So you're a nanny slash therapist slash housekeeper now, slash husband. That's too much, right?

[Marie]

It's a bit much. Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yeah. So I guess what I would tell you is you're free to go. You're free to go. You're free to be really sad. You're free to be heartbroken that you gave everything to this family for two and a half years and they treated you so disposably. You're free to go find another family that's going to honor you. I, I hear I don't have a nanny I've got some colleagues that do. And I hear how much they honor their nannies and how they talk about them and how they take care of them. And this just. Isn't that. This kind of just oohs me out, actually. Because you can't replace their husband. Let's just be honest. You can't. You can't replace her lost husband. You can't replace these kids, dad. You can't. And to even assume you can, it's just dishonoring. So I'm so sorry you're going through this, sister. But if my word means anything, you're free to go. And I'd. I'd recommend you take that skill set and that loyalty and that honor and take it to a family that is going to honor and respect you back. Thanks for the call. We'll be right back. All right, let's talk about Delete Me, my go to provider for online safety, security and peace of mind. Don't skip past this. Listen, we all know that we live on the Internet these days. I wish it wasn't the case, but it doesn't matter if I don't like it. Everything in my life and in your life takes place on the Internet. Our work, our personal messages and communications. We buy most of our things on the Internet now. It's just where so much of our lives exist. And because so much of our lives take place on the Internet, somehow it's become normal to give away our email addresses and our phone numbers to random companies who then turn around and sell them to other companies. This is why I'm happy to use and recommend Delete Me. I recently looked at my reports from my friends at Delete Me. Dude. They've reviewed over 35,000 different data brokers who might have my personal information and they've removed my personal info from hundreds of scammy data broker sites. Delete Me has saved me countless hours, days even, by removing all this stuff. And they've sent me detailed reports throughout the year showing me exactly what they've removed and from where. I want you to have this kind of peace, too. We can't really avoid living on the Internets, but we can make our personal data personal again with Delete Me. Get protected with Delete Me today and get 20% off all delete Me plans. That comes out to less than nine bucks a month. Go to joindeleteme.com DeLoney that's J-O-I N joindeleteme.com Deloney all right, let's go out north of Oklahoma to Alberta, Canada, and talk to Theo. What's up, Theo?

[Theo]

Hey, Dr. John. How's it going today?

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Doing great, brother. What's up with you?

[Theo]

Oh, just living the dream.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yeah, Anytime somebody says they're living the dream, they're for sure not.

[Theo]

Oh, it's the nightmare. I'll tell you what.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Oh, man. Okay, so what's going on, dude?

[Theo]

All right, so just to jump in with my question, how do I know if I'm ready to move on from my career as a lawyer and find a new career path?

[Dr. John DeLoney]

I mean, I can hear it all over you. The answer is yes. What do you want to do?

[Theo]

Well, I really don't know. So, I mean, just for a little bit of background context, you know, I'm 26, I'm a couple of years into practice, and basically what I've been doing is about 95% family litigation. So who.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

That'll take your soul from you? Yeah, that'll beat you up, man.

[Theo]

I mean, like, I've. Yeah. And I've wanted to be a. You know, I. I've. I don't know, I'm one of those jerks who's always known their career path right from day one. Like, I knew I wanted to be a lawyer since I was 10 years old. So now I'm just kind of at this, I don't know, crisis or turning point where I just, you know, my whole life is flips upside down and I just don't know where to go from here.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yeah. So I'm assuming you're calling. I've spent a lot of my career, I've studied the mental health of attorneys. I spent a lot of. A lot of years with pre service attorneys and with lawyers. And my gut tells me you're not through with the profession. My gut tells me that you are a couple years into the realities of it, which means you're gonna have to begin taking care of yourself and your external relationships outside of the practice of law more seriously so that you can rappel in and do this challenging work that is family law. And my guess is if you known. Have known you want to be a lawyer since you were young, you've probably done pretty good in school, you've probably been pretty likable. You've probably been able to kind of navigate your own path. And most young attorneys, when they hit the wall, that is daily practice. And the way, my friend, it's secondary traumatic stress, the way trust, stress and trauma accumulates on you, they're unprepared psychologically for having to go do some other Things so they can get their job done because they've always just been able to knock their job out of the park. So tell me about your outside of the practice life.

[Theo]

So I'm in a little bit of a weird situation for my practice. Like it's definitely not what, you know, you typically see on TV or anything like that. I'm with a rural firm, so we've only got four lawyers at the firm right now, including me. And you know, we, you know, I've got a really phenomenal relationship with my wife. So we try and spend as much time outside of work as we can. I sit on some boards just kind of advising them on how to do stuff. I've got some really fun, exciting, you know, business stuff coming up on the side that I'm really hoping to kind of dig into a little bit deeper. You know, just like you, I play guitar, so love, you know, the musical side of things is creative outlet. And it's not a case where I'm necessarily working, you know, those 70, 80 hours a week that you see in those big law firms. Like I'm still working the, you know, 8:30 to 4:30 and then putting in extra hours on evenings and weekends where required. But you know, I've got a really strong support system at home. My family lives really close to me. I've got an amazing group of guys and other friends that, you know, I can be really, you know, vulnerable and open with and not be afraid to share my feelings with.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

So where's your crisis coming from? What's making me question if I want to do this anymore?

[Theo]

It's really just the, just the environment itself. Like I love the substance of, you know, what I'm doing. Like I love, you know, reading cases, I love doing research. I love, you know, I love being in court and getting, you know, arguing in front of a judge. It's just everything else, the no that comes with it that's been really hard to deal with.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

It's pull it apart for be specific. What's the, what's the other noise? Yeah, parents weaponizing their kids, watching kids sob. I'm just running through some things. Is it watching parents weaponize their children? Is it having to depose a six year old? I mean, what, what is it about this job that is wearing you out?

[Theo]

I, I think it's just the adversarial nature of it. It's waking up every morning to a million my inbox where it's clients getting mad at me, it's other lawyers getting mad at me, it's Me having to deliver news to multiple people on a daily basis, it's, you know, I very recently lost a lot of faith in just the system in general of just really, you know, decisions being made by judges that make absolutely no sense and having to wait years to get into court to get any sort of resolution for clients and knowing that, you know, they're just, you know, it's, they're scraping by on a day to day basis just not being able to deal with their issues and just not being able to help people and just generally like the thing that's frustrating me the most or struggling, I'm struggling with the most is just how everybody's so unhappy all the time.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yeah. And I sort, I think, I think, you know, that you're out when making the shift from I'm going to change the system to I'm going to be a light inside the system. And nurses, physicians, insurance salesmen, attorneys, pastors, the ones that survive that make it have two things. One, a robust life outside of the practice. Sounds like you've got that. I would challenge you on how much you're actually doing things that are fun. You got a lot of business stuff. A lot of it just sounds like work and work and work and work. And I want you to challenge yourself and asking yourself is the only fun you have with just your wife, because one person can't carry that. But if you've got a group of guys, you'll hang out, you'll go do fun stuff. You're in a band, you play music, you're active in your local community. Maybe taking some time off some boards is an important thing because going from work to work to work and then having to do more work and then do more work, maybe it's just like, did I need to take a break? I had to do that. I had to do that quick. Quit being on all the boards and quit signing up for all these volunteer opportunities just because my main thing I had to show up in. The second thing that people in those positions do, allows them to keep going, is they make peace with the old starfish analogy. Do you know that story? It's, it's the old guy was walking along the beach and a thousand starfish had been washed up on shore. And he just started picking one up and throwing it out. And then he'd walk a little further and pick another one and throw it back out. And another fisherman walked by him and said, you're wasting your time, it doesn't matter. And he said to that one, it did. And if you can make that switch. Pastors can make that switch, nurses and doctors. I can't change the whole system, but I can make sure I treat this one person with dignity and respect. And I can't make people who are miserable in mass be happy. But I can learn how to tell this person really bad news in an honorable way. And so you have drawn out of me. I've never said this publicly, but the reason I say I'll sit with you is because I've learned over the last 20 years I can't fix much anything. I can't fix the system. I can't fake fix the way people treat their spouses. I can't fix pornography on everybody's phone. I can't fix every teenager in the world with Snapchat because their parents don't care about them. I. I can't fix any of that. I'll sit with you and I'll light your cigarette with you. And for whatever reason, when I made that switch, I realized, oh, I can do this forever. And so if you, at 26, you're just having that existential crisis everybody in the helping profession has, if you choose. All right, that's going to be, that's going to be my story, is that I sit with hurting people. It's what I do. I'm going to learn how to do that really well. If that's what you want to do, then awesome. If you also decide, dude, I just want to run businesses. I don't want to, I don't want to live in the messy goo of everybody's life. I want to start businesses. I want to do transactions, I want to do contracts. Then begin making that shift and maybe accelerate some of your side businesses and some business opportunities you have and begin to make that move over the next year or two.

[Theo]

Right.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

But yeah, you trying to carry it all, plus the system, plus the existential dread that your neighbors, I mean, that's just too much. Nobody can carry all that. Not to mention reading the news every day, scrolling social media. I mean, there was probably a decade plus that I didn't. I refused to watch any news at all. Zero. None. I didn't have social media until I got this job that I'm in right now. And even now, it's just a tool. I don't use it very often because I can't handle it. I can't carry all that and be able to show up for hurting people.

[Theo]

Right, Right. So I, I actually am going on stress leave at the end of the week here, so. Indefinite. I've, you Know, just been in the process of, you know, transitioning all of my files to other lawyers, and, you know, I've got a solid plan on how to.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

What is stress leave? I've never heard of that.

[Theo]

Right. So basically, it's just. I'm completely off work for a while. I've got a really good relationship with my firm where they said, you know what, Take all the time that you need to get yourself right. You know, I'm working with a therapist right now to, you know, work through all, like, past traumas in my life that's really affecting my day to day and, you know, helping people. So they basically, I'm off of work. All of my files are being taken care of by other lawyers, and I'm just taking, you know, going back to the farm for a little bit and figuring out if I do want to return. So there's no real set end dates as to whether or not I will return to practice. So does this give you peace or.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Does this give you angst?

[Theo]

Honestly, it gives me peace in the sense that, you know, I'm really relieved that, you know, I don't have to deal with a lot of these files that have gotten really ugly.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

How are you going to.

[Theo]

Sorry.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Are they going to keep paying you?

[Theo]

The firm isn't, but I've got other jobs already lined up. Like, I'll be working out on the farm, and I've got a few other things lined up that are nowhere near as stressful as this job.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

All right, so do. Do a thought experiment with me. You get off this call and you ask to see the principal. What do you call your boss?

[Theo]

The chief partner.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

I don't know what you. I know every firm's got different names.

[Theo]

Yeah, we'll just call them the partners.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yeah, that. You walk in and you say, hey, I'm really grateful you've been working through this with me. I'm going to go ahead and submit my resignation. Practice that with me.

[Theo]

Just saying that. Hey, you know, it's been really great working with you guys. I appreciate all the opportunities and everything that you've given me over the last couple years, but I need a. Has tendered my resignation and move on.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

There it is. That was the exhale I was looking for. Does that give you peace?

[Theo]

Oh, peace, sadness. I don't know. A lot of emotions.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

It's.

[Theo]

God, it's been embarrassing to think about, honestly.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yeah. There's not something wrong with you if you don't like watching people who abuse their kids get to keep them while somebody who's a loving parent doesn't. It doesn't make you broken that a judge doesn't even read your brief about what's going on inside of a house and makes a ruling because they're either too lazy or they're too overworked to even read it. And you're not crazy if you don't like it when you have to call a mom and say, I'm so sorry, but your quasi abusive, abusive husband just got 50 custody, and she screams at you and says, you told me you could get it for you, told me you could keep my kids safe. You're not crazy if you don't like that. Okay.

[Theo]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Do you have a rough family? Go growing up. Or is your family pretty amazing?

[Theo]

I'd say like 80, 85% really good. I didn't get along with my mom in high school. And that's kind of one of the breakthroughs I had in therapy not that long ago is that, you know, when I have a client screaming at me, I don't see them as my client. I see him as my mom telling me that I made a mistake and I just wasn't allowed to make mistakes.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

There you go. So maybe working through some of that. I guess what I would tell you, if whatever decision you make, neither of these decisions will be easy. They'll both be hard. So you're just gonna be choosing your heart, Choosing to put a period at the end of a lifelong dream, that once you finally got it, you realize this isn't for me. And by the way, my friend Lane Norton is a professional weightlifter. I can't hold up the weight he can hold up. That doesn't mean I'm less than or somehow weak. I mean, I am weaker than him, like, physically, but, like, I'm not somehow less of a person. I just can't. I can't carry that. And I remember my wife, early on, when I was dealing with a car wreck. Like, I saw a car wreck. I pulled the car over, she hopped in the driver's seat. I ran out in the middle of the road. She drove home. I got a ride home. And she's like, I don't know how you carry that. And I was like, I don't either. Just kind of can. And so just because you can't carry that level of weight and angst and hate and evil, that doesn't mean something's wrong with you. That means it's just not for you. And for you, who's dreamed of this moment for your whole life, that's going to be the death of a dream, you have to grieve it. Me sad. And you're going to feel lost. And you probably like telling people I'm an attorney, right? Feels good.

[Theo]

Yeah. It's great feeling.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yes. Different than telling people I'm a farmer.

[Theo]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And if you grew up in a farming family, you were the one that made it, right?

[Theo]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yeah. And if you thought your mom thought you made mistakes in high school, I can't wait till she gets a hold of this one. Right. All that stuff is going to be there and real. And maybe in counseling you find out you've been living somebody else's dream all this time. Maybe. Or maybe you take a break. But I guess the piece I can give you at the end of the day is what you're doing is hard and you're not broken. There's not something wrong with you, but your clients do need a hole and will you to show up and fight for. The second thing is if you take a break from the practice of law, your license doesn't go away, your skills don't go away. And maybe you take six months or a year or two years and you resign and you let the practice move on. And then you reemerge somewhere else doing a different kind of law or a different kind of business. And maybe one day you come back to family law when you got some wisdom, you got a little more strength, you get a little more calluses on your heart and soul. And you say, now I can go back in. So I wouldn't sign off on the death of this dream. It may be not right now, right?

[Theo]

Yeah. Well, how will I know if I'm ready to go back then?

[Dr. John DeLoney]

I think anybody who tells you, here's the three points that you'll know you're ready to go back is lying to you.

[Theo]

Right.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

The best way I can tell you is when you decide I'm going to go back, your heart rate doesn't go up. I've been doing this forever. And when somebody says, hey, you blew it, or you're the worst, or somebody you associate with is evil, and I can't believe I still hurts my feelings. Dude, it still does, but it doesn't set my body off. Do you get the difference?

[Theo]

Right.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

It makes me sad, it bums me out, but it doesn't paralyze me anymore. And a lot of that's my. My trauma counseling. A lot of that is just doing this over and over again. And then a lot of it is I've worked really hard to be well outside of this profession, outside of the helping others profession, My marriage is strong, my kids and my relationship is good. I've got great, great friends. I've got a bunch of wackadoo hobbies. And so all those things keep me whole. My faith is strong so that I can go back in and do this really hard work, which is sit with people in their worst moments. And so I never want to. When somebody calls and says, hey, so and so's child just passed, would you be willing to go talk to him? I never want to do that. The thing I want is their kid to still be alive. The thing I want is their husband to not have left. But it doesn't set my body off. It doesn't make me go to fight or flight. I can exhale and head right in. And that's how you'll know. And by the way, I want you to ask a question maybe you've never asked before. What do you want to do? Not so much. What can you do? What do you have to do? What do you want to do? These other businesses excite you. Chase them down. If farming is awesome, be a farmer. Dude, you've proven what you need to prove. You got through law school, which is hard enough. Now ask yourself at 26, what I want to do. What I want to do. It's a question that very, very few of us get to ask. Thanks for the call, my brother. I wish you the absolute best. We'll be right back. This show is sponsored by Better Help listen. Right now, BetterHelp is offering the biggest discount I've ever seen. 90% off your first week now through March 31st. Listen, you've heard me say this a thousand times. You're worth being well. And I believe that therapy can help. So if you've been on the fence, this is your chance to try therapy for a fraction of the cost. 90% off your first week. And let's be honest, we all spend money on things that we hope will make us feel better, like streaming subscriptions, new clothes, gym memberships, organic groceries. Some of y'all are even essential oil people. But when it comes to actually digging in and getting real about our mental and emotional well being, we hesitate. Please hear me. Your mental and emotional health is just as important as your physical health. And I know actually going to therapy can seem like a huge first step, but it's more accessible than you think. BetterHelp makes therapy more convenient because it's online and you can talk with your therapist when it works for your schedule. Just fill out a short online survey to get matched with a licensed therapist. And you can switch therapists at any time for no extra cost. Your well being is worth it. And this offer makes it easier than ever to start. Right now. BetterHelp is offering 90% off your first week of therapy now through March 31, 2025. This is the biggest discount we've ever offered on this show. 90 off your first week. Visit betterhelp.com DeLoney to get started. That's BetterHelp. H-E-L-P.com DeLoney all right, Kelly, Am I the problem? Let it rip.

[Kelly]

All right, so this is from Lisa in Washington, and she says, am I the problem? My boyfriend of six years puts his ex's birthday on the calendar.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Oh, no.

[Kelly]

The first time I noticed it, we were about two years into our relationship and I told him that it bothered me. His excuse was that it's the mother of his children and he wants a civil relationship.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

All right, well, that's different. Lead with that.

[Kelly]

Well, let me finish reading before you make a judgment.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

I'm an interrupter. Sorry, I'm judging.

[Kelly]

The kids are grown adults now.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

I'm back on her side.

[Kelly]

And he still puts it on his calendar each year, even though he knows it bothers me. Am I unreasonable to ask him to remove it again?

[Dr. John DeLoney]

No, I don't think so. I don't know. What do you think? I'm just annoyed by this whole thing.

[Kelly]

Yeah. Honestly, I've. No, I had no idea how to answer that one because I can come at it from both directions of. Part of me thinks it's still the mother of his children. It's still somebody that was in his life, you know, a very important part of his life. But also I can see, like, I can see it bothering her. But then I also think, why does it bother you? Are you insecure about it? Yeah, I think there's a. There's something below that. Like, this feels like there's a level deeper. Because when you marry or get into a relationship with somebody, you're in a relationship with their kids, their ex, the whole nine yards.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

But also, do you have to put it on the freaking family shared calendar?

[Kelly]

Yeah, maybe.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Just don't be a box of buttholes. Why do you have to do that? I mean, come on, put on your phone.

[Kelly]

Is that worse, though? If she finds that out, I probably, probably.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

But I mean, there's this like a ex, a girlfriend of mine back in high school had a birthday one day either before. After my. Not forgotten. Now, it would be weird for me to not remember that because there's literally one birthday off and we dated for a long time. It would also be weird for me to put that on the family calendar that I share with my wife.

[Kelly]

Right, but it's not the mother of your children.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Correct. That. You know, I'm just kidding. Plot twist. Nope.

[Kelly]

But see, to me, that's where things change. It's different. Like my ex husband, I know his birthday. It's just so many years. It was in my brain. I know what it is. No, it's not on our calendar, but we don't have shared children or anything like that.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yeah. So I guess. I guess I want to tell both of them. Stop. Both of you stop. You stop. You've been with this person for six years. You knew going into this deal that the person you're with had a whole other life. Married, kids, all this stuff. Stop. If it's on the calendar and you feel your heart rate going, quit. Stop. Either accept this relationship or move on. And on the other side, I. I never, ever, ever advocate for keeping secrets. But if you don't have it down by now and you need to put on the family account, that feels like a move to me for some reason. It just feels like I'm putting it a little bing. And I wonder if that might be the root of the insecurity, because there's a little bit of bing and ding and oh, my ex wife loved this band. Or this is the song that me and my. If there's some of that nonsense, then this is just like a tip of the iceberg. It's a. It's a bigger issue.

[Kelly]

Unless I can see. Is it. Is he still reaching out to his adult children? Like, hey, don't forget your mom's birthday is coming up.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Right.

[Kelly]

And, you know, and then it's fine if there's no other issues and this is solely the only thing.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yes.

[Kelly]

Then maybe just let that go.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Oh, my gosh. Let it go. And I guess this begs the second question. Do you still reach out to your ex to say happy birthday after your kids are grown and left the house?

[Kelly]

I think that's.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

I don't think so.

[Kelly]

Not necessarily, no. I mean, I don't think so.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

I guess it depends on your relationship, right?

[Kelly]

I mean, if she said they have a great relationship, maybe just be glad they have a good relationship and let it go. But I think it comes back to what you just said. Is this the absolute only thing, or is there still these little connections and little things he says? And does that make you think that there's still something there. Whatever. Besides their children. But if this is the absolute only thing, is it a big deal?

[Dr. John DeLoney]

As the great Taylor Swift said, shake it off. I don't know. This just feels like there's a deeper conversation that needs to happen. I personally relish the idea of forgetting my ex's birthday. We're gonna take it off the calendar always and forever. Yeah, I. I feel like this is one of the rare. Am I the problems that there's something else going on. If there's not both of y'all be adults and no, it's. I. I don't care what anybody says. It will always be weird to see somebody else married to my spouse. That little asterisk like, happy birthday, Janet. Like, that's always going to be a little bit weird. But also get over it. But I want to ask the deeper question. It's not a. That wasn't a great answer. Feel like I let down America. America's not listening to this. Love you guys. Stay in school. Don't do drugs.

[Marie]

Bye.