How Do I Walk Away After Being the “Other Woman”?

Summary

The Dr. John Delony Show
Episode: "How Do I Walk Away After Being the 'Other Woman'?"
Date: April 22, 2026
Host: Dr. John Delony (Ramsey Network)

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Episode Overview

This episode features Dr. John Delony engaging with three callers on deeply personal issues: breaking free from being the "other woman," the corrosive impact of political obsession on mental health, and early-stage alcohol dependence amid adult responsibilities. Delony's core approach is honest, direct talk centered around accountability, self-worth, mental health, and practical steps for healing and growth. Throughout, he draws parallels between emotional entanglements, political addiction, and substance dependence—framing each as a form of addictive escape from deeper pain.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Walking Away After Being the "Other Woman"

Caller: Michelle (starting at 00:05)

Summary:
Michelle calls in struggling to end a two-year affair in which she was the "other woman." She is tormented by guilt, fear of loneliness, and the challenge of ending daily contact with the man she works with. The discussion explores the psychology of addiction, self-worth, vulnerability, and the necessity of making difficult, life-altering choices for long-term healing.

Key Moments & Insights:

• Direct Approach Needed [01:37]:
  Delony distinguishes between "mechanics" ("block him on everything") and the deeper struggle of grief and violation of self-worth, emphasizing the need to grieve "the fantasy of it all."

• Addiction Framing [05:23]:
  Delony introduces the concept of love addiction:

  "Here’s the definition of addiction: continuing to do a behavior you know has adverse consequences, and yet you feel powerless and continue to do it anyway."
  He presses Michelle to consider what deeper pain or fear this relationship is numbing.

• On Self-Worth & Surrender [09:51]:

  "Those are the words of somebody who has learned over time that what you feel and what you want and what you believe simply doesn't count for anything. So I'm going to bury it." (Delony)

• Fear of Vulnerability [10:17]:
  Michelle voices her terror at letting anyone new in:

  "It scares me to death to think about having to open up to someone new … so it’s just easier if I have part of someone who I don’t have to hide my stuff from, than to think about having somebody else in my life." (Michelle)

• Inevitability of Change [12:59]:
  Delony warns:

  "Change is coming. This ends badly. This ends in heartbreak and deception, and this ends in ash. There’s no way this works out in the end."
  He urges Michelle to take agency rather than wait for circumstances or exposure to force her hand.

• Simplicity vs. Complexity [15:06]:

  "You have to commit to simplicity. The moment you start thinking… All of those questions are dumping variables in. It’s a way your body feels busy without solving the problem. We’re gonna solve for simplicity here." (Delony)

• Workplace Complication [16:04]:
  When Michelle reveals she works with the man, Delony compares it to telling an alcoholic at a bar:

  "If you were an alcoholic and you worked at a bar, I would tell you: you gotta get a different job. … This ends with you unemployed at some point anyway. You know that."
  He counsels documentation and readiness for a major life change.

• Empowerment & Readiness [17:05]:

  "The folks I meet with regularly who are struggling with addiction say, 'I have to. It’s time.' Nobody can make that decision for you… I believe in you more than you believe in yourself right now." (Delony)

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2. Stepping Away from Political Obsession

Caller: Michael (from 21:11)

Summary:
Michael describes the psychological toll of political addiction—losing close friendships and emotional equilibrium due to algorithm-driven outrage and anxiety. He asks if disconnecting entirely is the right move. The conversation expands into intergenerational trauma, anger management, and shifting one’s locus of purpose from national drama to personal relationships.

Key Moments & Insights:

• Algorithmic Realities [25:45]:
  Delony uses Andrew Schultz as an example (instead of the divisive Charlie Kirk) to illustrate:

  "Depending on the world that your algorithm feeds you, that’s all you know of the world… if somebody has this deep-seated vitriol against somebody, I have to believe that's all they get all day long, right, wrong or indifferent."

• Addiction Parallels [27:07]:

  "It becomes an addiction, it becomes consuming, it becomes almost compulsive. You have recognized that in yourself and you’ve backed all the way out." (Delony)

• Childhood Roots of Compulsion [29:02]:
  Delony explores Michael's upbringing with an emotionally volatile father:

  "You never knew when [your dad] was going to shock you. Often men… do one of two things: seek power and control everywhere… or they disappear from the world."

• Finding Purpose at Home/Work [34:23]:
  Michael notes:

  "Treat kids like human beings… I want every single kid that walks into my room to know that I truly want what is best for them."
  Delony stresses that true purpose and security comes from personal, not societal, work.

• Detoxing from Politics [35:33]:

  "I think you did the right thing, detoxing from politics. And that is different than burying your head in the sand, and you know the difference."

• Media as Drug [36:12]:

  "They're not selling me information. They're selling me a drug. … When we back out and say what they're giving me is not information, they're giving me heroin, they're giving me cocaine, that makes it easier to walk away." (Delony)

• Therapy Recommendation [37:24]:
  Delony strongly recommends trauma therapy, painting a vivid before-and-after:

  "When you disconnect that nuclear reactor in your chest… your kids will feel it. Your wife will feel it. Your students will feel it."

• Emotional Safety for Children [38:58]:

  "When their life gets bananas or stressed, do they come running for you?... That's the measure of do I have a safe attachment with my boys, or do they have an anxious attachment?" (Delony)

• Family Systems Change [40:00]:

  "I'm telling you, as a guy who's on the other side of that kind of healing, bro, everything changes."

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3. When Is Drinking a Problem?

Caller: Jenna (from 42:25)

Summary:
Jenna questions her drinking habits—quietly reliant but not drinking to intoxication—after her doctor's reaction to her interest in GLP1s (medication for alcohol dependence). She is intimidated by the prospect of eliminating alcohol and what that would force her to face within her marriage, herself, and her childhood trauma.

Key Moments & Insights:

• Initial Admission [43:09]:

  "The idea of just cutting alcohol out completely… was terrifying." (Jenna)

• Counting as a Red Flag [44:41]:
  Jenna relates, "I’m counting the beers to make sure I have enough to get through the week…"

• Alcohol as Solution, Not the Problem [46:05]:

  "Those voices may be right… The last thing you want to do is immediately shut off your body's alarm systems because you’re going to take the batteries out of the alarm, but your house is going to burn down around you." (Delony)

• Deeper Roots: Trauma and Loneliness [49:27]:

  "They sent you to rehab. They kicked the crutch out from under you… That’s cruel to a teenager. No, you have to change the environment that makes drugs and alcohol an important tool and resource." (Delony)

• Facing Change in Adulthood [50:31]:

  "How much of this are you terrified of what it's actually going to mean about your marriage and about potentially being lonely…?"
  Jenna: "I’m lonely right now. But if I quit drinking, I have to reintroduce myself to my husband."

• On Worthiness [51:18]:

  "You're worth a better life than this. You're worth having peace when you walk in your front door… You're worth joy, and you haven't had that in a long, long, long time." (Delony)

• Fun and Alcohol [52:11]:
  Jenna:

  "Life is work… That little beer at the end of the night, it’s my little bit of fun."
  Delony acknowledges the validity but pushes for reclaiming joy outside the bottle.

• Action Steps/Homework [55:15]:

  "Today's day one. All right, here's your homework assignment: Before the day is over, I want you to have an appointment with an in-person therapist… If you don't feel safe enough to be completely honest, go find somebody else."
  Jenna admits to being an "oversharer" as protection; Delony calls for radical honesty.

• Family Communication [56:28]:

  "Tell your husband, 'I'm going to start making some significant changes, and I hope you'll come with me… the story I'm making up in my head is you're not going to like me.'"

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "Y’all don’t have a special secret thing. You have a lie."
  — Delony to Michelle [05:23 & 03:12]
  (A blunt exposure of the painful reality behind infidelity.)

• "Change is coming. … I would rather you be holding the flashlight when it does."
  — Delony to Michelle [13:46]

• "They're not selling me information. They're selling me a drug."
  — Delony on political media [36:12]

• "You're worth a better life than this. You're worth having peace when you walk in your front door... You're worth joy."
  — Delony to Jenna [51:18]

• "Over-sharing is a mechanism. It's not honesty. You can overshare information and never share how you feel about something."
  — Delony to Jenna [55:47]

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Additional Segments & Tone

• Dungeons & Dragons Breakdown (Light Interlude) [60:36 – End]
  The episode closes with lighthearted banter about what a "campaign" in D&D means, serving as a contrast to the heavy earlier topics and demonstrating the show's warmth and camaraderie between cast members.
  • "It's oral storytelling, right? It's the oldest form of entertainment." (Kelly)

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Important Timestamps

• Michelle (“Other Woman”): 00:05 – 20:00
• Michael (Politics & Anger): 21:11 – 41:00
• Jenna (Alcohol, Therapy): 42:25 – 59:00
• D&D Segment (Comic Relief): 60:36 – End

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Takeaways

• Relationship and behavioral struggles often function as addictive escapes from deeper wounds and unmet needs.
• Change is inevitable; proactively embracing it empowers rather than victimizes you.
• Healing requires seeking help, radical honesty, and confronting buried feelings of shame and unworthiness.
• Personal accountability, therapy, and dismantling self-damaging stories are central to recovery—whether from relationships, political compulsion, or substance dependence.

The episode is as compassionate as it is direct, offering practical wisdom while refusing to sugarcoat reality—hallmarks of Dr. John Delony's tough-love style.

Transcript

[Michelle]

We have been seeing each other longer than the other. Well, I'm the other woman, but, you know, the main woman has been there. He told me that we could no longer be seen in public together.

[John DeLoney]

Y' all don't have a special secret thing. You have a lie. Hey, what's going on? What's going on, John, with the Dr. John DeLoney show coming to you from Nashville, Tennessee, talking to real people, going through real challenges, talking to people from all over the planet. If you want to be on this show, I'd love to have you on. We'll change your name, we'll change your location, and we will get to the bottom of what's going on in your world and help you find the next right move. Click the link in the show notes if you want to be on the show. Let's go out to Tulsa, Oklahoma and talk to. Well, well, well, my Michelle. What's up, Michelle?

[Michelle]

Good morning.

[John DeLoney]

How we doing?

[Michelle]

Oh, well, I'm. I'm talking to you, so I'm doing kind of okay.

[John DeLoney]

There you go. You're up and at him. You're up and Adam Kelly says that talking to me ruins her day, but I appreciate your kindness. So what's up?

[Michelle]

Well, my question is how do I

[Jenna]

walk away

[Michelle]

after being the other woman for probably about two years?

[John DeLoney]

Tell me more about it.

[Michelle]

Okay, so.

[John DeLoney]

Or actually, let me do this. Let me do this instead of. I want to hear the story. But when you say we, it sounds like you're asking me for, for a mechanics question, but I think you're asking something way deeper because like how do you walk away? You block him on everything. You stop returning his calls and you deal with the heartbreak and the grief not only of this relationship, but of the fantasy of it all. And you at some level, violating your own core values, which is I participated in long term deception. I'm going to grieve the crap out of that. I'm going to be sad and I'm not going to the conversation that contact is over. And then I'm going to be about finding my own new relationships, my new friendships, et cetera, building a life that I want to live inside of my own skin, within. That's. That's the mechanic side. But it sounds like you're asking me a deeper question.

[Michelle]

Well, all. I mean, I. Yes, all of those things. That is. I think about those things all the time.

[John DeLoney]

Okay, tell me what makes this so hard.

[Michelle]

I think if I knew the answer to that, I'd be able to do the mechanics to it.

[John DeLoney]

That's fair. That's fair.

[Michelle]

We have been seeing each other longer than the other. Well, I'm the other woman, but, you know, the main woman has been there.

[John DeLoney]

Okay, so I'll stop. I want to interrupt as we go, because I want to break this, the story that has taken hold in you. Okay. So I want you to tell me this story, and I'm annoyingly going to. Going to jump in. Okay. All right. So when it comes to longevity. Doesn't matter. Doesn't matter. All right, keep going.

[Michelle]

So we started seeing each other and it got serious pretty quickly, which kind of scared me, so I wasn't ready for all of that. And then he decided he was going to start seeing other people, which then I didn't like that, but I just dealt with it. And then eventually he told me that there was somebody that he was, I guess, more serious with. And so at that point, we could no longer be seen in public together. And at first I did do the mechanics of it. Right. Like, I'm not going to be part of this. I'm not going to participate in a lie. You're dragging me into your mess. But he just won't go away ever.

[John DeLoney]

Okay, let me jump in. You won't let him go, right? Right.

[Michelle]

No, you're right. Yes. No, you're right. I. For some reason, I. I can't. I can't. The. I every. I have contact with him every day. Every single day. And I just. I. I've tried. I have had millions of talks with myself about why should it be doing this or that. It's not fair to me. It's not fair to this other person. You know, he's not a nice person for doing these things. Yeah, but then he'll call or he'll text or I'll see him, and I'm right back in it. Like, I just.

[John DeLoney]

So Pm Melody, who's a famous thinker and therapist and writer. She's the one where I was first introduced. I don't know her. She passed. She's passed away. But she's who first introduced me to the idea of love addiction. The idea that a person. Because. Because here. Here's the definition of addiction. It is continuing to do a behavior that you know has adverse consequences. It's not good for you, and yet you feel powerless and continue to do it anyway over and over and over again. And you know that this is not a good human being that you're with. You also know that this is a violation of the person you project yourself into the world to be. And yet. And so What. What if we looked at this fantasy, this. This. This. This entity that happens to be a person and not a drink? What if we looked at this person as an addiction? Because if we change. Because right now you look at him as somebody you love and somebody you know him being better than even his own girlfriend knows, and that y' all have this special bond. All of that is fantasy. Y' all don't have a special secret thing. You have a lie. And it. And it. And it. I've known him longer. I know him deeper. I know the glance across the room and we're not supposed to be seeing each other in public. I. It feels like you've created the secret world with this person. That's. That's how I define intimacy. The creation of a secret world between two people. But you don't have a secret world with this person. You're on the outside of his secret world. You're a player in his game. And so. So let me ask you, like, why now? After two years? Why now? What. What is this addiction? Let me ask you this. Like, what is this addiction? So you may have heard me say this on the show. I don't beat people up for drinking or for struggling with sex addiction or pornography addiction, because often those things are the actual solution to the real problem. So what is he solving for in your life? A fear of loneliness, shame. A fear of, I'm this old, and this is as good as it's going to get. All men are like this, so I might as well. Like what. What is he solving for in your life?

[Michelle]

All of those things.

[John DeLoney]

Tell me about them.

[Michelle]

All of those things. I don't trust men. I don't trust them. Not even a little bit. Okay. Fair at all. Life has taught me from a young age that they are not to be trusted.

[John DeLoney]

Fair. It's a lived, learned experience. And I'm not gonna. Like, your body knows that as a truth. I'm not gonna. I'm not gonna fight you on that at this time. Right. Like, I'll accept that you've learned over time, over experience. I can't trust him. Okay.

[Michelle]

Now there is a fear of loneliness that this is. This is as good as it's going to get. Not necessarily. Because I feel like,

[Jenna]

okay, well, there

[Michelle]

probably is part of me that feels like I'm not worthy of anything more than this, for sure.

[John DeLoney]

Here's how I know that's true. Here's how I know that's true. You told me that you didn't want this and you didn't need this. And you weren't going to be a part of this. And then your exact words were, I decided to just deal with it.

[Michelle]

I did.

[John DeLoney]

That's. Those are the words of somebody who has learned over time that what you feel and what you want and what you believe simply doesn't count for anything. So I'm going to bury it.

[Michelle]

And then there's also, in that same vein, the fear of vulnerability.

[Jenna]

Right?

[Michelle]

So I don't. It scares me to death to think about having to open up to someone new. Right? Like, this man knows me very well, and he knows everything that he knows. All of my mess, all of my trash, all of my chaos. And to have to open up to someone new, there's the fear of rejection

[Jenna]

and

[Michelle]

not being loved for who I am and what I come with. And so it's just easier if I have part of someone who I don't have to hide my stuff from, then to think about having somebody else in my life, that. To get to know someone all over again. I don't want to do that.

[John DeLoney]

And so can I sit here with you on that? I get that. I feel that for real. And the way you just Described that is 100% addict talk. I've had that exact same conversation trying to talk to somebody about going to rehab, and they don't want to rebuild their life over again. They don't want to meet new people. They don't want to come up with new life rhythms. They just stare at the idea of going to the gym and, like, changing how they interact with the world. And they're like, dude, I can just have a drink, and it all stops. And I get that. I get that. And it. It. It. It's these moments when you have to. Either a, You. You have to come to the conclusion yourself that you're worth more than this. I. I can't talk you into it. It's the hardest thing in the world when. When you care about somebody who's struggling with addiction. It's the hardest thing in the world. I can't. I can't make you look in the mirror and believe you're worth more than this. That's why they say most people have to bottom out. There's.

[Michelle]

I just don't know that I.

[John DeLoney]

Go ahead.

[Michelle]

I'm sorry. I just. I just don't know that I can. I can process any more change, any more upheaval.

[John DeLoney]

But. But let's talk about it a different way. I don't know that you can carry the burden of this anymore. And so what I want to tell you is change is coming. This ends badly. This ends in heartbreak and deception, and this ends in ash. There's no way this works out in the end. And even if he calls you tomorrow and says, I've had this big revelation, this big spiritual awakening, I've broken off with the other woman, you're my person for life, till death do us part, you would still sleep with one eye open for the rest of your life.

[Michelle]

Oh, I know that this doesn't end well.

[John DeLoney]

And so hear me say change is coming. I always tell couples, like, who are married, you can have the hard conversation now at your kitchen table, or you can have it in a divorce attorney's office, but you're gonna have the conversation. And so for you, change is coming. Do you want it to be on your terms, towards whatever light you want to head towards, or do you want it to be on somebody else's terms and pile more shame, more guilt, more exposure on this thing? You think it's vulnerable now? Wait till she finds out and puts it all over everywhere. Wait till he decides that he's sick of you and he puts it all over everywhere. This will come to light. I would rather you be holding the flashlight when it does.

[Michelle]

Okay, so how do I. I mean, if we're rephrasing it as an addiction, which I can understand because it's like a. It's a dopamine fix. Right. But how do I. I mean, not really, but.

[John DeLoney]

But it doesn't matter.

[Michelle]

Yeah, okay. Sorry. How do I.

[John DeLoney]

Well, I mean, I. I think. Here's the thing.

[Michelle]

You.

[John DeLoney]

I think you just gave gave me a great insight that the tendency here is to. To make things more complex than necessary.

[Michelle]

The moment I walk away, the moment how do I quit? Go ahead. Sorry.

[John DeLoney]

I mean, like, you have to commit to simplicity. The moment you start thinking of, well, where am I going to get my dopamine and oxytocin? How's that going to interact with my serotonin? I need to. And how am I going to not do this? And how can I not do that? All of those questions are dumping variables in. It's a way that your body act feels busy without actually solving the problem. We're gonna. We're gonna solve for simplicity here. I'm going for 30 days. For 60 days, I'm gonna go stone sober. No contact.

[Michelle]

I can't do that. You can't work with them.

[John DeLoney]

Do what?

[Michelle]

I work with him.

[John DeLoney]

Well, that just got more complicated.

[Michelle]

Yeah, that's every day.

[Jenna]

Yeah.

[John DeLoney]

Here's the thing. If you were an alcoholic and you worked at a bar. I would tell you, got to get a different job. This ends with you unemployed at some point anyway. You know that. Is he your boss? Nice. This for sure ends in one or both of yalls unemployment. You know that. This is a train that's left the station. If he's in a position of power over you, you can go sit down with hr. You can have that conversation. Here's the thing. Any sort of major life change like this requires major life change. And you can see him for a period of time and you don't have to text him, you don't have to return his calls. You don't have to have private conversations in the hallway. And since this is a complicated employment issue now, I would document the heck out of those things. Because if and when he moves to fire you or to get you moved or demoted, you'll have these things written down and say, my boss carried on a secret sexual relationship with me for two years and I felt trapped and stuck. That day's coming is what I'm trying to tell you. Get the all the firewood and the coats and stuff you need. But when you tell yourself already, I can't, that tells me you're not ready. Because the folks I meet with regularly who are struggling with addiction say, I have to. It's time. Nobody can make that. Nobody can make that decision for you. Call me anytime. Michelle, here's the crazy thing. I believe in you more than you believe in yourself right now. And in the dark moments, remember those words. I believe in you. We come back. A man asks if stepping away from politics to protect his mental health was the right choice. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. Financial stress does not just damage your bank account. It can also take a toll on your mental health, your emotional health, and your relationships. Money worries cause anxiety, and they're one of the leading sources of conflict for couples. I know this personally. My wife and I have had years of struggles because of financial issues. Listen, therapy can help even with your money. And therapy is not about financial advice, but it can help you build healthier ways of coping and give you strategies to communicate with those you care about about money without it turning into a war. BetterHelp is an online therapy platform that matches you with a licensed therapist based on your goals and preferences. BetterHelp therapists work according to a strict code of conduct and they are fully licensed in the United States. You can message your therapist and schedule sessions right in the platform. And if the first therapist isn't a good fit, you can switch at any time for no additional cost. When life feels super overwhelming, therapy can help. Visit betterhelp.com DeLoney to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp h-e l p.com DeLoney all right, so here's what happened. I was going to lunch the other day with Kelly, the producer of the show, and she got into my truck and she was expecting to hear some crazy punk rock or heavy metal music blasting. And when she hopped in, my phone connected with the radio and a gentle voice of Jesus Sermon on the Mount came out of my speakers. And she looked at me and was like, what is this? And I looked at her and said, yeah, I don't just advertise Hallow. I actually use it. Hallow is the number one Christian prayer and meditation app in the world for a reason. And it's become one of the most important things I do to start every day and sometimes to anchor the middle of my day or close down my day. Anchoring myself in prayer helps me slow down and prioritize what matters most to me in the world before everything goes bananas. Hallow gives you space to breathe, to reflect, and to pray. And it's guided, it's simple, and it meets you where you are to help you anchor your faith practice, or to even start a faith practice to begin with. It has daily reflections, scripture, music, special series, and most importantly, it gives you peace. There's no pressure here. It's just practice. And you can try hallow free for three months only through my link. Go to hallow.com DeLoney and sign up for free today. That's hallow.com DeLoney for three months for free. All right, let's go out to Duluth, Minnesota and talk to Michael. Hey, Michael. What's up, brother?

[Michael]

All right. Told myself I wasn't going to do this, but I did write something up so I don't forget.

[Kelly]

Oh, you're good.

[John DeLoney]

You're good.

[Michael]

Over the last several years, I was really invested in politics. By that, I mean, I followed everything religiously on social media, with people, I talked to, things, I watched everything. It was consuming. And a big turning point for me was when Charlie Kirk was assassinated. I respected him. And after that, my best friend of 25 years posted something on Facebook saying that he deserved to be killed because my friend disagreed with him. And I sent him a message saying that was hurtful. And previously, my friend had posts saying that if any of his friends voted for Trump to delete him as a friend because he didn't want to be associated with those people. So I never said anything political ever, ever, ever to him. But I did tell him that I like Charlie Kirk. And then I did vote for Trump. And I'm not going to read the comments on this video. I told him, yeah, I told him how I really did do not care who my friend voted for. He's my best friend and I loved him. And I was hoping and would assume he felt the same way, but unfortunately he didn't. And he sent me basically a 10 page research paper on why I'm wrong. And we have not spoken since. So since then, politics has really added nothing positive to my life. I get stressed out about every single thing happening in the world. Every little election feels like the most important election ever. And I would lose sleep over some random election in Vermont or something. And I couldn't do it anymore. So I completely erased everything, news, politics, from my life. I unfollowed everybody, unfollowed podcasts, everything even remotely political. My question is, did I do the right thing? Because I want to know what's going on in the world, but I don't know how I can, because when somebody posts anything even remotely political, my heart starts racing and I just have to immediately close it or I'm laying in bed and something will come up and then I'm like, well, yes, I'm not falling asleep for another hour because it's something remotely news.

[John DeLoney]

Sure.

[Michael]

Is it okay to be, like, oblivious, or am I just covering up the real problem?

[John DeLoney]

Man, what a great, great, great question. And first, I just want to tell you thank you for being thoughtful about it. Thank you, man. There's so much here. So let me back out and I'll use Charlie Kirk as an example. And I know even saying the name Charlie Kirk is a third rail thing, right? So have you heard of the. The. The. I don't remember exactly how it's called, but it's essentially the. The. The three way problem with Charlie Kirk.

[Michael]

I have not.

[John DeLoney]

Okay, so the three way problem with Charlie Kirk is because of how algorithms work. Depending on who you follow and like and whatever and support in any part of your life, if you're a hunter and a fisherman and a teacher and a dance instructor, and whatever the Charlie Kirk you get on your feed could be one of three different versions of. Of a total person. And so. And you know what? I'm gonna back out of Charlie Kirk because it's just so contentious and there the feelings are so heavy. I'm gonna go to a comic who I have high, high respect for his name's Andrew Schultz. He's not everybody's cup of tea. He's pretty vulgar. But I think he's one of the most brilliant minds working today. Okay. He had, he has a podcast that he, that, that I listen to and he's got funny people on it, comedians, some of it. I just fast forward through it because they're just, just being crass and whatever. But he's had Mandami, he's had Bernie Sanders, and he's also had Trump. And he, I remember a very thoughtful conversation he had on his show talking about when it occurred to him that depending on your algorithm, you may only know Andrew Schultz as the right wing super Republican MAGA guy, high Trump supporter. And depending on your other feed, you may only know Andrew Schultz as the guy who had two socialist politicians on.

[Michelle]

Yeah.

[John DeLoney]

And that's all you know. And you may have a third inside of him as just this comedian who tells crass jokes a lot. Right. Or you may know him as a comedian who is a savant at cultural comedy. He goes into all sorts of other countries, other cultures, and he goes right at him with really deep layer jokes where they feel like, oh, we're seen and known, and they're getting made fun of in really like, uncomfortable ways. And they're all in. It's like he gets welcomed to their table. You know, like, you can make fun of, I can make fun of my family, but you can't. He is a master at saying, oh, I'm one of y'. All, right. And so depending on your algorithm, that's a different version you get. And so when he discussed that, I had a ton of compassion all of a sudden for everybody. Because depending on the world that your algorithm feeds you, that's all you know of the world.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[John DeLoney]

And so if somebody has this deep seated, like vitriol against somebody, I, I've just developed a compassion for that person because I have to believe that's all they get all day long, right, Wrong or indifferent.

[Michael]

And it's consuming.

[John DeLoney]

And it, because there you go, it becomes an addiction, it becomes consuming, it becomes almost compulsive. And so you have recognized that in yourself and you've backed all the way out. And now you're dealing with the other part of this, which is when something consumes us, whether it's our work, our, our dating life, our a person or politics, it usually is filling a vacuum other places in our life. And so my question for you is, where do you feel dead in your own skin? Where do you feel powerless? Where do you feel anxious and is politics this obsession with politics? And what you're talking about is not having an idea of what's going on in the world. You're way past that. I've been there too, brother. And so what else is happening in your life where you feel dead in your own skin, where you feel powerless, where you feel like you are just a beach ball in the ocean getting cast around?

[Michael]

Well, so I'm married. I have three boys and another one on the way. I don't know if it's a boy or girl, but another one on the way. And I like, I was just talking to my wife last night. I was in such a funk because we had a snow day yesterday because we had first blizzard I've ever experienced. And like my. I have and I always have had such a short temper that I just. The smallest little thing, I blow up. And then immediately I'm like, I did not need to blow up over that. And then.

[John DeLoney]

Yes. What's the history of that?

[Michael]

My dad always had that. My dad had. My dad worked a lot. I mean, I saw my dad a lot, but my dad had. There was no like slightly annoyed version of my dad. It was when he got mad, bam, he freaked out. Like, one example was we had a computer that wasn't working right in the basement. And he was downstairs working on it. And we hear a scream and a smash. And he comes upstairs and he had ripped the mouse out of the computer, peeled the buttons back and like slammed it on the ground. And then he walked upstairs and we're like, what's wrong? And he's like, oh, no, nothing. Just the computer wasn't working.

[John DeLoney]

Okay.

[Michael]

So he goes from 0 to 100 and then back down.

[John DeLoney]

Do me a favor, okay?

[Michael]

Yeah.

[John DeLoney]

You have any siblings?

[Michael]

Yes.

[John DeLoney]

Older or younger or both?

[Michael]

Two older. One younger.

[John DeLoney]

Okay, I want you to close your eyes real quick while we're on the phone here in your car. I know it's kind of weird. Hopefully your students don't see you. And I want you to picture yourself at 10 years old, fourth grade, standing in the living room of your childhood

[Michelle]

home

[John DeLoney]

and hearing one room over, your dad coming unglued, smashing things, yelling at your mom, going after your little brother. I want you to feel that in your body being 10 and completely powerless at the rage of this man. No 10 year old, no 10 year old should be scared of their dad. Okay? I'm sorry as all bloody hell that happened to you. Your dad should have been your warm, safe place of strength and sturdiness. And he was an electric fence. And you never knew when he was going to shock you. Often men who grow up in homes with emotionally immature, emotionally chaotic, rageful fathers do one of two things. They seek power and control everywhere in their lives and they can't have it because that's not how the world works. That's not reality. And they recreate the story of their childhood with short tempers, with anger, with demands, with a need to feel ahead of the curve. You had to see to, you had to look around, learn how to look around corners because otherwise you get your head knocked off. As a 10 year old, of course you're doing that as an adult or men, they disappear from the world, they just opt out. And that's not you. You're a man of character and integrity and so you've got responsibilities and you love deeply. And also you have a very clear sense of the world needs to be a certain way. You're trying to force stability into an unstable world. You've been having to do that since you were a kid. And politics is one of the few places where we are reduced to how small we actually are. Because we get one vote every four years, we get one vote every two years, we get votes in local elections and we realize that our influence is actually greater not with what we thumbs up or thumbs down or long posts or 10 page diatribes to our closest friends, but in how we treat our neighbors, how we open our doors, how we're hospitable, how we do the next right thing day in and day out over a long period of time. And when we live like that, we're forced to deal with the nuclear reactor in the middle of our chest. You know what I'm saying?

[Michael]

Yep. So, and that, that was part of my frustration because I, like you are really helpless. You get all worked up over this random election, but there's literally nothing I could do about it. And you know, I would maybe comment on some things here and there and whatnot and try to get people to, if they were on the fence, to vote one way or the other. But then I'm. It, it's not worth it. I just, it, it was causing so much stress and there was nothing good coming out of it.

[John DeLoney]

Right. So my question for you is where is there good

[Michael]

in the world or just in my life?

[John DeLoney]

Where do you have purpose? Where do you put good in the world?

[Michael]

At home and at work?

[John DeLoney]

How do you do it at work?

[Michael]

Treat kids like human beings.

[John DeLoney]

That's not enough. Go deeper than that.

[Michael]

I try to make it very clear to whether they pass my class or not, I want every single kid to know that I truly care about them. Like, I have a couple kids with Fs right now, but they come and talk to me. They come and tell me what's going on in their lives. So I want every single kid that walks into my room to know that I truly want what is best for them.

[John DeLoney]

Okay. And common from young people who grew up in traumatic households is this powerful internal drive that nobody else will ever feel like I felt.

[Michael]

Right.

[John DeLoney]

The challenge with that is, is if you don't start with yourself, that becomes exhausting and you burn out over time.

[Michael]

Yep.

[John DeLoney]

Trying to give what you don't have is just the waiter who continues to fill up people's water glass, but never goes back to the source to refill their picture. And so here's a couple of things. Number one, I think you did the right thing, detoxing from politics.

[Michael]

I feel better. But.

[John DeLoney]

And.

[Kelly]

And.

[Michelle]

And.

[John DeLoney]

And that is different than burying your head in the sand. And you know the difference.

[Michael]

Right.

[John DeLoney]

I've learned I can't get into that ecosystem because they're too good.

[Michael]

Yep.

[John DeLoney]

The neuroscientists who partner with the techno wizards who partner with media companies are simply better than my brain chemistry. I'm at peace with that.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[John DeLoney]

Their fonts, their volumes, they're breaking news stories, their slants. They're just better than me. And they're not selling me information. They're selling me a drug.

[Michael]

Yep. Yeah.

[John DeLoney]

And at the end of the day, media companies, all of them, are publicly traded companies, which means they have one job on planet Earth, that is to sell ads to get clicks, not to give you information. They would be failing their shareholders if they did not do whatever they could to make you feel like if you don't see the next thing, your life's in danger. And so when I. When. When we back out and say what they're giving me is not information,

[Michelle]

they're

[John DeLoney]

giving me heroin, they're giving me cocaine, then that makes it easier to walk away. And then I have to do the hard work of finding reliable sources where I can get some daily dose of what's going on.

[Michael]

Yep.

[John DeLoney]

And then I can get on with my life. And getting on with my life does not mean burying my head in the sand. It means it asking where can I show up for myself? Where can I be in service to myself so that I'm well and I'm whole? And by the way, brother, I've spent some time with a trauma therapist And I think that's where you need to go. You don't understand the relief and the peace on the other side when. When you disconnect that nuclear reactor in your chest, when you recognize I wasn't safe then, but I'm safe now. I'm telling you right now, brother, your kids will feel it. Your wife will feel it. Your students will feel it. You can tell everybody all day long, I love you and I'm your safe place. But, man, it all changes when they. When they feel you're their safe place.

[Michael]

That's exactly what I told my wife last night. Because, like, I love my boys. The. My boys are my world. And she was like, well, do you, you know, hug them and tell them that you love them? And I'm like, every single day when I get home, before I leave, I give them a hug, I tell them I love them. I tell them I'm proud that they're my kids. But then the second they do something bad, then, you know, I raise my boys and yell at them so, like, I can tell them that all I want, but are my actions.

[John DeLoney]

Yeah. Showing this or put it another way. And this is. This is. This is going to be hard to say, Hard to hear. Okay. I've had to hear this, too. So this is the pot with the kettle here. When their life gets bananas or stressed, do they come running for you?

[Michael]

No.

[John DeLoney]

Okay. That's the measure of.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[John DeLoney]

Do I have a safe attachment with my boys, or do they have an anxious attachment?

[Michael]

I could tell they kind of get nervous whenever they have to come to her, like, you know, to tell me, hey, my brother did this, and they come and tell me. I could tell that they're.

[John DeLoney]

There we go.

[Michael]

They're nervous.

[John DeLoney]

Yeah. And you've been there before as a kid. And then you feel guilty and shame that your boys are feeling that. And then it works up and it kicks up the nuclear reactor, and the whole thing starts over again.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[John DeLoney]

This is about you going and sitting with a professional trauma therapist and saying, I'm gonna let this. I'm gonna set my. I'm not giving my father and my childhood nervous system. I'm not carrying those cinder blocks around with me anymore. I need to set those down. And I'm telling you, as a guy who's on the other side of that kind of healing, bro, everything changes.

[Michelle]

Okay?

[John DeLoney]

My heart rate, my. My resting heart rate dropped about 10 beats a minute. Okay. When I tell you it changes at your nervous system level, how your metabolic systems operate. It changes you, but you got to Go do that work. Thanks for the call, man. Your. Your honesty and courage is going to help a lot of folks here. Thanks for the conversation, my man. I would be honored if six months from now, nine months from now, after you spend some time with a trauma therapist, I would love to hear about how you're feeling. My guess is your kids, your sons, are not going to be able to stay off of their dad. You're going to become a human jungle gym. You're going to be their safe place. And that's when we start changing our family tree. We come back, a woman asks why her doctor recommended medication in rehab when she doesn't see herself as an alcoholic. We'll be right back. Winter is over. The sun is coming out earlier and staying out longer. And it's awesome. And that also means it's time to rotate the closet. Poncho flannels and denims are going in the back, and poncho originals and ultralights are moving forward. No matter what time of year it is. I'm still almost always wearing poncho shirts. I've been wearing them for years because they're the best. The original poncho is that go anywhere performance shirt. It's lightweight, it's breathable, it's quick drying, it's built for real life. And the ultralight has the same great fit with an even lighter feel. And when it gets hot, like it does in Tennessee, actually all over the country, it's getting hot that matters. Poncho shirts have stretch, so they move with you. And even though they're light and soft, they're really, really tough. And here's the deal. They also look sharp enough to wear to dinner, but they're comfortable enough to work outside in and to wear all. If warmer weather has you ready to reshuffle your closet, I want you to go to ponchooutdoors.com DeLoney and check out their amazing shirt styles. Get 10 bucks off your first purchase. Just sign up with your email. That's ponchooutdoors.com DeLoney all right, let's go to Portland, Oregon and talk to Jenna. Hey, Jenna, what's up?

[Jenna]

Well, a few weeks back, I heard you talking to a caller about microdosing GLP1s and how they cut back in the noise in your head, but you had attributed it specifically to alcohol, and I'd never heard that before. And I scheduled an appointment with my doctor, and he immediately did an audit test, and I came back as high risk rather than even discussing GLP1s with me. He prescribed Antabuse and alcohol counseling

[Michelle]

because

[Jenna]

he said that they don't prescribe GLP1s through our insurance. But at the same time, it just, like, sent me into panic when that was the option that he offered.

[John DeLoney]

Okay.

[Jenna]

Idea of just cutting alcohol out completely and still having the voice in the back of my head was terrifying.

[John DeLoney]

Okay, so two important things here. Okay. Number one, I want to make this so, so clear. I am in no way, shape, form, or fashion a medical doctor. His opinion Trump's mind a thousand to one. Okay. Number two, what you just described, the way you just described your relationship with alcohol tells me you have a problem. Do you have a problem?

[Jenna]

I mean, to have a beer every day? Sometimes two, sometimes three. Sometimes I don't ever drink to get drunk. I don't like being drunk. I might accidentally get drunk once a year, but I do, like, at the end of the day, it's my signal that the day is over.

[John DeLoney]

Okay. Why does the thought of coming up with other signals scare you?

[Jenna]

Well, I started working out a couple months ago, and I work out four days a week, and I was like, this is going to take that need to have that beer at the end of the day away. And now when I come home from the gym, I have that one beer, but I have that one beer instead of two beers.

[John DeLoney]

Okay, so why'd you go to the doctor?

[Michelle]

When I heard that call,

[Jenna]

I. The reason I've never been able to stop drinking, I feel like, is because the voices when I skip that drink are so loud or when I buy less alcohol so that I don't have a beer at the end of the day, I'm counting the beers to make sure I have enough to get through the week, and I don't have to ask my husband if it's cool if I go get more. So the idea of not having that constant chatter in my brain, having that turned down, I felt like it would be easier to put space between me and alcohol.

[John DeLoney]

Okay.

[Jenna]

But the idea of, like, taking an abuse and not being able to drink at all. That's so scary.

[John DeLoney]

Yeah. But your challenge right now. This is going to sound crazy. Is not with alcohol. Your challenge is heading straight into those voices because two things are happening. One of two things is happening. Probably a mixture of both, but it's easy to just bifurcate it. Those voices may be right. Your relationships may be a mess. You may be just running on a treadmill in your life and don't have any purpose. You may be unhealthy. You may need to really Deal with some old childhood traumas. Your marriage may be way unsafe.

[Michelle]

Check, check, check, check.

[John DeLoney]

Okay, so here's the thing. Those voices are right. And alcohol shuts them off. The last thing you want to do is immediately shut off your body's alarm systems because you're going to take the batteries out of the alarm, but your house is going to burn down around you. And so I, I, I'm, I'm, I'm 100% with your doctor here. I, I, I don't know. The, the, like Anabuse has a whole bunch of. By the way, for those of you who don't know, Anabuse is, it's a medication you take that when you drink alcohol, you become violently ill. It makes you, it makes the drink so awful for your body that you stay away because it's like, it's, I mean, it's like touching a, like a, like a hot stove. I mean, it just makes you feel awful, but also a side effect. So I, I can't speak to anything around that, that out that, that drug, but I can tell you you need to go, you need to go to a meeting,

[Jenna]

okay.

[John DeLoney]

And you probably need to go see a professional therapist asap,

[Michelle]

Okay?

[John DeLoney]

Because your body's trying to get your attention. And I, and you sound smart enough and, and I don't mean that like an intelligence wise, but you sound like a very thoughtful person. And so I want to say back to you what you told me. Okay? The thought of not having beer in my fridge scares me. I count alcohol, I count beers. So that I know, right?

[Jenna]

Yeah.

[John DeLoney]

That tells me that alcohol is serving a very important role in your life. And I want to get to the bottom of what it's trying to protect me from. Or let me put another way, the changes you're avoiding, they're going to happen. If you're in an unsafe marriage, if you're body is still trying to solve from historic trauma, if your job isn't safe, if you're operating life with no purpose. All of that ends up on the table. It just might be an attorney's office, it might be a rehab center where you're forced to go. Or it can be you choose to take your suitcase into a counselor's office, into an AA meeting and dump it out yourself. But it's coming out.

[Jenna]

I mean, I did outpatient when I was a teenager because I got caught with drugs.

[Michelle]

Okay?

[John DeLoney]

That's different.

[Jenna]

So I kind of felt like, you know, this has always been something I've had control over and I didn't like Meetings when I was younger.

[John DeLoney]

Of course you didn't. You were made to go. And by the way, drugs and alcohol were solving for something when you were a teenager.

[Jenna]

Yeah.

[John DeLoney]

Was. Was home, chaotic, unsafe.

[Jenna]

My mom was bipolar, manic depressive.

[John DeLoney]

There you go.

[Jenna]

Things got really rough when I was, like, 13.

[John DeLoney]

Yeah. So they sent you to a rehab. They kicked the crutch out from under you. Right. And then they dropped you right back in the middle of the football game and said, keep playing. That's cruel to a teenager. I'm not saying you let teenagers continue to use drugs and drink. That's not what I'm saying. But no, you have to change the environment with that. Makes drugs and alcohol an important tool and resource. Of course meetings were miserable. Right. Like when you were a kid, you were forced to go.

[Jenna]

I didn't feel like I was one of them. I didn't feel like I was there for the same reason they were, and they weren't interested in being there. And I used drugs a couple times, got caught and stopped.

[John DeLoney]

That's not where we are anymore.

[Jenna]

No.

[John DeLoney]

How old are you?

[Jenna]

I'm 40. Or I will be.

[John DeLoney]

How much of this are you terrified of what it's actually going to mean about your marriage and about potentially being lonely and about potentially having to go recreate yourself at 41 years old?

[Jenna]

I'm lonely right now, but I think maybe that's part of what I'm scared of, is if I quit drinking, I have to reintroduce myself to my husband.

[John DeLoney]

You have to reintroduce yourself to you. And sometimes we're lonely because other people don't see and know us. But sometimes we're lonely because we don't let other people see and know us. And sometimes it's both. I need you to metabolize what I'm about to say. Okay?

[Michelle]

Okay.

[John DeLoney]

You're worth a better life than this. You're worth having peace when you walk in your front door. You're worth your husband and your home being the safest place on the planet for you. You're worth coming home and laughing your butt off, not having to hide from your emotions in your day. You're worth having REM sleep, which alcohol destroys. You're worth joy, And you haven't had that in a long, long, long time.

[Jenna]

I don't do any of the fun stuff we used to do.

[Michelle]

We have kids.

[John DeLoney]

I know, but you don't think you're worth being fun with.

[Jenna]

Life is work.

[John DeLoney]

That's part of it.

[Jenna]

I'm going to work two jobs and Driving the kids to all their activities and put the workout in there, and there isn't time for fun. That little beer at the end of the night, it's my little bit of fun.

[John DeLoney]

And if you've created a world, that's the only moment you have, I get it. And I also get that being in a season where you got little kids and you've got people running around and resources are tight and you and your spouse aren't connected, Y' all are living separate lives in the same house, Right? Like, I. I get it. I totally get it. I just want to tell you, I've sat with. I mean, I. I've talked to thousands of couples who have cleared the deck and said, the marriage we had is over. Let's rebuild a new one. I can't tell you the number of people who have come out after rehab or stay in an inpatient rehab or who've started going to meetings who get their life completely back. Can't tell you the number of people I've talked to who have said, hey, hey, I'm not going to let my kids busyness dictate my marriage and my home. Me and my spouse, me and my partner are going to be the anchor of this place. And y' all are gonna orbit around us, not the other way around. And it changes everything. The. The responsibilities stay the same, but the ethos in the house changes. It's like going to a job where the boss is just miserable and they suck the same. That same work, the same job can be a place of awesomeness if your boss rules and your co workers are awesome, Right?

[Jenna]

Yeah.

[John DeLoney]

But I want you to hear me say, you can't none. You can't see through any of that, because right now, you're looking through a cloud. You're looking through a glass darkly. And that's when you got to trust people around you to say, hey, it's time to go see somebody. I don't think you need to turn the. The. The voices down right now. I think you need to go listen to them. And right now, listening to them alone, that's. That's a tall ask.

[Michelle]

They're so loud.

[John DeLoney]

I know, I know. And they have to be because you keep drowning them out. Are you worth it?

[Michelle]

Yeah.

[John DeLoney]

Okay. Today's day one.

[Michelle]

Yeah.

[John DeLoney]

Today's day one. All right, here's your homework assignment. I want you to. Before the day is over, I want you to have an appointment with an in person therapist.

[Michelle]

Okay.

[John DeLoney]

And my preference for you would be if you found a trauma informed therapist and give it two or three sessions. And if you don't feel safe enough to be completely honest about your childhood, about your marriage, about your relationship with yourself and your kids, then go find somebody else. Okay.

[Jenna]

I'm generally an oversharer, so that's. That shouldn't be a problem.

[John DeLoney]

Yeah, but you, yeah, but you overshare to protect that sacred six inches of space.

[Jenna]

Push them away before they can push me away.

[John DeLoney]

Over. Yeah, over. Sharing is a mechanism. It's not honesty. You can overshare information and never share how you feel about something. Yeah, that's what I mean about going and being honest. And tell your husband, I'm going to start making some significant changes and I hope you'll come with me and be honest with him and say the story I'm making up in my head is you're not going to like me. And let him.

[Jenna]

He's the only person who's ever not asked me to stop drinking.

[John DeLoney]

Okay. It doesn't.

[Jenna]

My kids have.

[John DeLoney]

Okay, so today's day one, and by the end of the day, I want you to have found a meeting. If you're a real gangster, you'll go to night. Your husband can do bedtimes, but you'll go to night. Or you're going to go early in the morning. You start your. You start your day early, find an early meeting in the morning. We're going to start going. And it might. Twelve steps may not be your thing over the long period of time, but it's not like it is in the movies. Can be a very warm, inviting, kind place where people who are doing life just as busy and fast as you are come in and say, I'm powerless over this one and I'm worth more. Your doctor's right. And for anybody listening to this podcast, if I say something that's different from your doctor, maybe get a second opinion, but listen to your physician who knows you. Your blood panels knows medication. They are licensed, they are board certified. Listen to them over me. I'm a podcaster, But do head towards healing. I'm proud of you, Jenna. Day one, on your 30 days, I want you to call back and we're going to celebrate. You might even see if I can make a 30 day chip or a 60 day chip. That'd be awesome. I'm really grateful for you. Game on. We'll be right back. As you can imagine, my house is filled with all kinds of rad stuff. All my hunting gear, all of my music stuff, my kids art, my wife's art. We have so much cool stuff. In our house. But I would say not the coolest, but almost the coolest stuff we have in our house is Cozy Earth gear. Our house is packed with Cozy Earth gear. Sheets, pajamas, blankets, socks, towels, all of it. Why is our house packed with it? Because it's amazing. I got this Cozy Earth comforter recently and it's big, but somehow it's not like hot and heavy. It's like a cloud. It helps regulate temperature so I stay comfortable throughout the night and I sleep better and I wake up feeling restored. It's just so comfortable. And I got Cozy Earth essential socks. Listen, these socks are amazing. They come in four links and they're all super comfortable. Cozy Earth also offers a hundred night sleep trial on all bedding and a 10 year warranty on everything else. So there's no risk filling your house with Cozy Earth gear. Go to cozyearth.com DeLoney and use code DeLoney and you'll save up to 20% off your entire order. That's cozyearth.com use code DeLoney and if you get a post purchase survey, tell them you heard about Cozy Earth right here on the show. You're gonna love Cozy Earth taking over your home. All right, we're back. All right, so I finished. All right, this is for Ben, who's running the board on the show. All right, Ben, listen. I was late to the game by about a decade. I started my son and I started Stranger Things season one about a month and a half or two months ago. We just finished season five. I, I am in a deep state of mourning and just sadness. I felt like, like if you want to see my childhood minus the upside down, that's my childhood. Riding around on bikes, causing problems, walkie talkies, adventures, forts in the woods, fighting, like all of it. That was it. The one thing that was a part of my childhood was Dungeons and Dragons. So same I, or okay, I was kissing girls, but whatever. All right, so I need you to teach me as concisely as you can, but as passionately as you can. What is a campaign? What does that mean? Because. Because it looks like in the show, like each person makes up their own story, but I don't know how much of the story they make up. And then it's just left to chance because of dice rolls and stuff. Or do they have to have the ending already complete? Like, how does it work? What's a campaign?

[Kelly]

I find that. So a campaign, I mean the simplest way to put it is it is a story. It's not everyone telling their own story. It's the dm, the dungeon master, who's kind of the storyteller, who has kind of their own story arc that they're going to go through. But like you said, like, the dice, the decisions the player makes, like, they change the story. So it's very rare that an ending of a campaign which is just multiple sessions of the same plot line, right? We're going to one town, we're going to fight a dragon. The next session, we all get together, we're going to then fight this other thing because we killed the dragon. Now this thing is after us. So it progresses.

[John DeLoney]

But how do we know. How do we know when the other dragon pops up? Is that the storyteller or is that dundeem? Or is it like a card gets turned over and you're like, oh, there's another dragon?

[Kelly]

It depends on how you run it. But, like, some people do pen and paper. Some people have maps, battle maps, right, where you can see your. Your characters on a map, and you can say, oh. The DM will say, hey, you. You see something rustling in the bushes around this area? If you're doing just pen and paper in your brain, you can just say, I walk over there. What do I find? And then the DM will walk you through what that is. A creature approaches.

[John DeLoney]

How do you keep the DM from just making it up as they go?

[Kelly]

The DM is making it up as they go, huh? It's literally. I mean, sometimes they'll have, like, plans. They'll say, like, the DM had kind of this, like, outline that they brought to the session. And then so they know that you're going to encounter a dragon. And then sometimes it just goes off the rails because players are like, hey, I want to go left. And the DM is like, well, I thought you were going to go right, but I'm going to make up something on the spot because you chose to go left instead of what I was planning.

[John DeLoney]

My favorite thing about this discussion is I just watched Kelly die in real time, y'. All.

[Kelly]

It's a fun game. I'm telling you. Look, I'm married. I turned out great. I played D and D, y'.

[Michael]

All.

[Kelly]

It's a fun game.

[John DeLoney]

I've got a job. I've got a family.

[Kelly]

Yeah, but listen, it's just. It's oral storytelling, right?

[John DeLoney]

It's.

[Kelly]

It's the oldest form of entertainment. That's what dnd.

[John DeLoney]

I agree. And it sounds like people get to participate in the story, like, choose your own adventure in real time. Yes.

[Michael]

Yep. Yeah. There's an element of improv.

[John DeLoney]

Oh, then the other techno nerd pops in and. Kelly, you're sandwiched.

[Michelle]

I know.

[Kelly]

I'm having a great time with this.

[John DeLoney]

Okay, here's the thing. I've spent my entire life rolling my eyes, but the Stranger Things kids, they did pique my interest. So I'm gonna commit to a campaign at some point this year. You gotta invite me over.

[Kelly]

Dude, I'll DM it. Let's go.

[John DeLoney]

I. I can't call you a dungeon master. I just. I'm not there yet. I can't. Baby steps. Baby steps. But thank you for sharing your expertise and your wisdom.

[Kelly]

Anytime, John.

[John DeLoney]

Kelly, I saw you wielding a margarita machine. We're going to need to crank that sucker up because I don't know what just happened. Love you guys. Bye.