I Gave My Husband an Ultimatum and Now He Wants a Divorce

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Dr. John Delony Show
Episode: I Gave My Husband an Ultimatum and Now He Wants a Divorce

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Introduction

In this compelling episode of The Dr. John Delony Show, hosted by Ramsey Network, Dr. John Deloney delves deep into the complexities of marital relationships and the emotional turmoil that can arise from setting boundaries. The episode centers around a listener’s experience with giving her husband an ultimatum, leading to unexpected consequences, including his desire for a divorce. Additionally, Dr. DeLoney addresses broader themes of boundaries versus rules within relationships, providing valuable insights for couples navigating similar challenges.

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Susan’s Call: Ultimatum Leads to Divorce

[00:05] Susan’s Dilemma

Susan from Tacoma, Washington, initiates the conversation by sharing her struggle within her nearly four-year marriage. She explains that her husband repeatedly crossed boundaries they had mutually established, particularly regarding the consumption of sexual content online.

Notable Quote:
Susan: “I gave him the ultimatum... he had been crossing lines and like, rules that I felt like we had set pretty much in our relationship.”
[00:05]

[02:02] Setting Boundaries vs. Ultimatums

Dr. DeLoney explores the nature of Susan’s ultimatum, suggesting that while she intended to set a boundary, the situation escalated beyond repair. He differentiates between rules and boundaries, emphasizing that boundaries are personal safeguards rather than controls imposed on a partner.

Notable Quote:
Dr. John DeLoney: “A boundary is something I set for me.”
[04:36]

[07:31] Understanding the Husband’s Struggle

Susan elaborates on her husband’s covert activities online, which, although not blatant pornography, involved seeking out sexually suggestive content on platforms like Facebook and TikTok. This behavior eroded the trust and emotional connection between them.

Notable Quote:
Dr. John DeLoney: “What I hear is a guy who's struggling and whose wife is standing on the side of the bank of the river with her arms crossed saying, if you can't swim, you're done.”
[08:57]

[16:55] Reflecting on the Ultimatum

Susan expresses regret over issuing the ultimatum, recognizing that it may not have effectively communicated her true feelings. Dr. DeLoney reinforces that ultimatums are a declaration of personal tolerance rather than a means to change a partner’s behavior.

Notable Quote:
Dr. John DeLoney: “An ultimatum is not to get somebody else to change your behavior. It's you saying, this is what I will tolerate.”
[16:53]

Key Takeaways:

• Boundaries vs. Rules: Boundaries are personal and egalitarian, while rules often imply control and hierarchy.
• Ultimatums: Should be used to express personal limits, not to coerce change.
• Trust and Rebuilding: Reestablishing trust requires mutual effort and open communication.

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Conrad’s Call: Supporting a Wife Through Miscarriage and Divorce Considerations

[23:16] Conrad’s Struggle with Miscarriage and Marriage Issues

Conrad from St. Louis, Missouri, seeks advice on supporting his wife after experiencing a miscarriage. He also grapples with the decision of whether to proceed with divorce, given longstanding marital issues.

Notable Quote:
Anne (Conrad): “I want to process that loss and grief to help her help with that feeling.”
[23:16]

[38:23] Considering Divorce After 15 Years

Conrad shares his frustrations stemming from a sexless marriage, lack of emotional connection, and his husband's inability to participate actively in household responsibilities. Despite multiple attempts at couples counseling, the issues remain unresolved.

Notable Quote:
Conrad: “My gut answer is divorce.”
[38:23]

[43:33] The Impact of Long-Term Neglect

Dr. DeLoney emphasizes that behaviors in a marriage are a form of communication. Conrad's husband's lack of engagement and responsibility has conveyed a clear message about his feelings towards the marriage and family.

Notable Quote:
Dr. John DeLoney: “Behavior is a language.”
[50:10]

[58:12] Empowerment and Taking Ownership

Dr. DeLoney encourages Conrad to take ownership of his decision, highlighting the importance of acting from a place of empowerment rather than lingering in resentment or blame.

Notable Quote:
Dr. John DeLoney: “You have to choose to start living in reality and stop being surprised.”
[53:02]

Key Takeaways:

• Emotional Neglect: Long-term neglect in a marriage can lead to irreparable emotional distance.
• Taking Control: Empower individuals to take ownership of their decisions, especially after extensive efforts to salvage the relationship.
• Supporting Through Grief: Mutual support and understanding are crucial when dealing with shared tragedies like miscarriage.

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Insights on Boundaries vs. Rules

Throughout the episode, Dr. DeLoney revisits the distinction between boundaries and rules, a theme underscored by both Susan’s and Conrad’s experiences.

[63:17] Defining Boundaries and Rules

Dr. DeLoney clarifies that rules often create a power imbalance in relationships, whereas boundaries are collaborative and essential for mutual respect and safety.

Notable Quote:
Dr. John DeLoney: “Rules infer a power hierarchy... A boundary suggests something egalitarian.”
[63:17]

[67:25] Practical Applications

Using relatable examples, Dr. DeLoney illustrates how boundaries function within a relationship to protect both partners, contrasting it with the rigidity and control implied by rules.

Notable Quote:
Dr. John DeLoney: “If you find yourself in a marriage relationship and you find yourself making rules for your partner, that is a relationship that is not going to make it.”
[67:13]

Key Takeaways:

• Egalitarian Nature of Boundaries: Boundaries are about mutual agreement and protection, fostering a healthier relationship dynamic.
• Avoiding Control through Rules: Imposing rules can lead to resentment and power struggles, undermining the relationship’s foundation.
• Collaborative Communication: Effective boundaries are established through open dialogue and shared values.

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Conclusion and Final Thoughts

In this episode, Dr. John DeLoney provides a nuanced exploration of how ultimatums, boundaries, and long-term marital challenges intersect. Through the real-life stories of Susan and Conrad, listeners gain insight into the delicate balance required to maintain healthy relationships. The emphasis on understanding the difference between setting boundaries and imposing rules serves as a crucial lesson for couples striving to navigate their personal and shared struggles.

Final Quote:
Dr. John DeLoney: “Nobody's ever asked me that question in that way. But... boundaries are who are about identity. Who are we going to be and how are we going to unify to protect this thing.”
[63:43]

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Recommendations for Listeners:

• Assess Your Boundaries: Clearly define personal boundaries and communicate them openly with your partner.
• Seek Professional Help: If boundaries are continually crossed, consider seeking guidance from a qualified therapist.
• Empower Yourself: Take ownership of your decisions and prioritize your emotional well-being in the relationship.

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Disclaimer: This summary is based on the provided transcript and aims to capture the essence of the podcast episode for informational purposes only.

Transcript

[Susan]

So I gave him the ultimatum. It had kind of been really our entire relationship, but most of our almost four year marriage. Him crossing lines and like, rules that I felt like we had set pretty much in our relationship.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

White lines and rules. That language kind of makes me feel weird. What up? What up? This is John. Dr. John DeLoney Show. I'm so glad that you have joined us, talking about your mental and emotional health and your relationships, whatever you got going on in your life, I'm here to sit with you and we'll figure out the next right move. If you want to be on the show, give me a buzz at 1-844-693-3291 or go to john deloney.com ask. Hey, we are about to hit a major milestone. We are knocking on not Heaven's Door, Bob Dylan slash Guns and Roses, but we are knocking on a million subscribers to YouTube. If you will please take a second and hit the subscribe button. It just moves you up in the algorithm algorithm thing, and it's just puts the show in front of people who are desperately in need of someone just to sit with them and say, here's the next right move. If you'll stop for just a second, hit subscribe. Send this episode out to your friends and family. That would be such a gift to everybody. What else? Oh, the questions for humans, they're out. They are in the wild. We got third editions of the all, the three all time favorite decks, the couples and parents and kids and friends. And we've got the questions for humans intimacy deck. Go pick it up. The reviews are awesome. It's been amazing. All right, let's go out to Tacoma, Washington. Not Toyota, Tacoma, just Tacoma, Washington, and talk to Susan. Hey, Susan, what's up?

[Susan]

Hi, Dr. John. My question is, how can I repair my relationship with my husband after giving him an ultimatum?

[Dr. John DeLoney]

I don't think anyone's ever asked me that question in that way. So did you say, all right, here's the ultimatum? And he just flew right by the ultimatum. And you're like, I mean, never mind.

[Susan]

A little bit, I guess.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yeah. So there's probably no repairing. There may be rebuilding. There's maybe building something totally new. But I mean, you said if you cross this line, this thing's burned to the ground. And he crossed the line and then it burned to the ground. And now you're like, oh, just kidding. Is that what happened?

[Susan]

Kind of, I.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Tell me all about it.

[Susan]

Yeah. So I gave him the ultimatum and it had kind of been like just really our entire relationship, but Most of our almost four year marriage. Him crossing lines and, like, rules that I felt like we had set pretty much in our relationship. And what lines and rules?

[Dr. John DeLoney]

That. That language kind of makes me feel weird.

[Susan]

Okay, yeah, that's fair. I call it a rule instead of a boundary because it just. I don't feel like it fits the definition. Definition of a boundary. But we had more of, like, a rule in our relationship that neither of us would watch porn or kind of consume things that were just overtly sexual. And he never watched porn, at least while we were married, but he would look at things really sneaky and behind my back that we both felt like, just crossed that line. And there were times where I would. I would catch him or he would tell me, which is great, I guess, but. Yeah. So I just kind of had felt like I didn't really want to deal with that anymore. And I don't know, he just had a very adverse reaction to it. Like, at first he really understood and was like, I'm trying my best and I have a lot of respect for you and I want to be better for you. And then a few weeks later, he came home and told me that he didn't think he wanted to be married anymore. And he felt like he couldn't look at me the same after the ultimatum. And me doing that, you know, giving him an ultimatum while he felt like he was trying his best to figure this out made him lose, like, respect and attraction for me. And it made him realize that he wasn't super happy in our marriage because he felt like he was being controlled.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yeah, I mean, I mean, this doesn't apply everywhere, but a rule is for you. I'm setting this rule for you. A boundary is something I set for me.

[Conrad]

Okay.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And so just as you're describing this, it sounds very much like me talking to the parent of a teenager.

[Susan]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And. And his response, quite honestly, is very much like a teenager response then. I'm moving out. I'm 16. I'm moving out. I don't want to live here.

[Susan]

Right, right.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And it sounds like the question of him. I don't want to get into it, but I kind of do. Like when you say he wasn't looking at porn and he's not doing this, and he's not doing this, was he, like, is he. Was he pausing on it? Like, if I look at Instagram right now, every tenth scroll is somebody in a bikini top or something. You know what I mean? And, like, mine's a work thing. Right. So. And my social media person is A is a young woman. I'm not pausing on anything ever.

[Susan]

Right.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

It's still just there. Or if I go to the news right now, if I went to check on the weather, there's going to be some little, like, ad strip on the side with somebody in a bathing suit or somebody almost topless selling me, like, a. Like a Kia. Right. So tell me, is he pausing on this? Like, what. What. What are you, quote, unquote catching him doing?

[Susan]

Um, I. I don't know. I don't want to put, like, too much of his business out there.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

You kind of already have. We're here. That's true.

[Susan]

That's true.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

We're here. You don't have to name him or anything, but, like, what is he stopping at? What's he looking at?

[Susan]

Yeah, it would be, like, on, because he actually deleted Instagram because he felt like he was always surrounded by things that made him want to dive deeper into something and. But he still had, like, TikTok and stuff. And on there, there's, like, weird, like, sex bots. And so he would go on those profiles and, like, click on the links and just, like, lead down a rabbit hole. And it eventually led to him, like, basically deleting everything, any kind of social media, except for Facebook. And then even on Facebook, he would, like, the final. This was kind of. What was the final thing for me is he had kind of created this loophole where he would, like, join Facebook groups where people would post links where, like, the COVID photo was, like, some woman with her bare butt or something, like, I don't know. And he would try to click on those links or just whatever it was he was. I don't know. So it was never, like, really porn, but it was just, like, almost that. Like, about as close as you can get without searching up porn.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Okay, so what I hear is a guy who is struggling.

[Susan]

Yes, absolutely.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And I hear a guy who said, like, who agreed with his wife either to, quote, unquote, your rules, or y'all sat down and said, here's you. You both sat down and co created this ide. Who's here? Who's. This is who we're gonna be. We're gonna channel 100% of our sexual desire and energy into each other.

[Susan]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Game on. Okay, that sounds like a noble goal. Okay, go get it. And then both of you are gonna have to learn how to handle that intensity.

[Susan]

Right, Right.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

It's a lot, but here we are. And then he stopped looking at what we would call traditional pornography. Then he found, like, that the Internets keep hollering at him. So he got rid of Instagram and he got rid of TikTok, and then he got rid of Facebook and occasionally he clicks on a picture of a butt. Right. Like, so here I, I hear, I see a guy continually making another effort, another effort and another effort, and then he comes to you.

[Susan]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

What I hear is a guy that can't win, or more specifically, a guy who's struggling and whose wife is standing on the side of the bank of the river with her arms crossed saying, if you can't swim, you're done. Is that fair? Am I mischaracterizing that?

[Susan]

I don't think it's unfair. Yeah. I mean, I think he was definitely struggling and I had not ever, like, anytime it happened, I had only told him that I loved him and that it was okay and that I forgave him and that I knew that he was going to, like, try again. Like, it was always a fresh start.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

What led to the ultimatum? What happened?

[Susan]

So the ultimatum was basically, I had had like a weird feeling that he wasn't being completely honest about it because I was asking him, like, how things were going. He had started therapy for it. He has dealt with a pornography addiction in the past. And so we would frequently just do check ins just to see how he was doing. And it was basically just like, how are you? Are you good or not good? Okay, what, like, can we do this week or what can I do to support you? And I just had a feeling that he wasn't being honest about it. So I asked him if I could look at his phone and he said sure. And I did. And that's when I found that he had been joining a bunch of Facebook groups where the purpose was to like, post things that were just overtly sexual. And he had been like, just searching up things that were kind of weird. And so I was like, hey, that's not cool.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

When you say weird, are you talking about like, for real weird sex stuff? Because Internet is a dark, gnarly place. Yeah.

[Susan]

Not like definitely weird. Nothing that's like, was scary or like.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Violent, but just furniture and shoes and feet and stuff. Yeah.

[Susan]

Like weird. Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Okay. That's all you gotta say. Yeah, there's, there's. Yeah. Anyway.

[Susan]

Yeah. And so I basically was just like, I don't appreciate, appreciate this any more, you know, And I really need to see like, I more of a good faith effort and like something that I can hold on to that shows that you really respect this. And I led into just this deeper conversation where he just was like, I don't know, like, I feel like this isn't my value anymore. So I don't see the purpose in it. But, like, I'm gonna keep trying for you. But basically, like, I just don't, I don't like having all of these restrictions on what I can view and not view.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Right. And so, I mean, we, this is what I think is the problem in the, the popular media. Like, boundaries are all the rage right now. I talk about all the time ultimatums, like. Yeah, right. The, the great cut off. Right. I'm not talking to my parents because one time when I was a kid. Right. All that kind of stuff.

[Susan]

Right.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

What nobody talks about is when the person on the other side of the boundary goes, ah, okay, cool, you'll have a good one, and they head out.

[Susan]

Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And they basically call your bluff.

[Susan]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And so the question you have to ask yourself is, is multi, Multifaceted? Number one, when you said ultimatum, that means ultimatum. That means either or. If, then you do this or I'm out.

[Susan]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

So you have to be able to say I was wrong on that or by right. If your weird Internet searches and you're like, if that's more important than this. And by the way, it's not, it's a deeper thing. He lives in a failure factory. He can't win.

[Susan]

Right.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Or he feels he can't win.

[Susan]

Right.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Or he's making choices to not win. All that's true. Right. He has not made the decision to, quote, unquote, get clean. And that's hard. Right. And he says, bye, then you got what you wanted.

[Susan]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Right. You wanted a life without a part, with a, with, with or without a partner. You didn't want that garbage in your life. So here you go. You got it. So you have to decide, a, am I right on that? Or B, okay, I, over, I overstepped. I, I, I'm sorry. I was wrong. Number two, you have to own that continually over paternalizing him, over parenting him is not working.

[Susan]

Totally.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And you all have to go, this isn't about watering down your boundaries or watering down your values. It's you saying, I value us together. And the way I've been trying to keep us together is by increasingly becoming your mom. And that's not working.

[Susan]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And so you need to go sit with somebody and learn some new skills.

[Susan]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Right. And I think telling him that, that I value monogamy in all of its forms and I value, like, you and like, I want to be the, the recipient of that Laser focus of your sexual energy. And by the way, I've got to learn how to hold that.

[Susan]

Right.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And underneath all of that. This sounds troubling and hard to hear, but my guess is his continued going down rabbit holes has very little if nothing to do with you.

[Susan]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And he has to make a commitment to. I want to get to the bottom of these fetishes. I want to get to the bottom of curiosity. I want to get to the bottom of just opening these accounts and clicking and clicking and clicking and clicking down these rabbit holes. And he has to decide if he wants to stay with you because he may not want to give that stuff up. He may not want to give up the illusion. Like I don't. I didn't even go from my mom's house to yet another mom.

[Susan]

Right.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

So do you want to stay married to this guy?

[Susan]

I do. Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Are you willing to do it and not cash in?

[Susan]

What do you mean by that?

[Dr. John DeLoney]

This is a pivotal moment in a lot of marriages.

[Susan]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Where you either recommit together, he doesn't give up on himself and on you and you don't give up on him. Or one of you kills the other a part of themselves and just says whatever.

[Susan]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

You either are like, whatever. He has a weird internety thing. Fine. And you never fully present because it grosses you out, it makes you sad and all that stuff. Or he just resents you and continues to have a secret life that can't put on the table.

[Susan]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

What's your next move?

[Susan]

Yeah. We're kind of like in that process right now, I guess because it's been a few months since. Quite a few months since then which has led to like it's just been a really messy last few months. Reasonably. I, I've recognized like that I don't think. And said, I don't think that the ultimatum was right or really a reflection of how I was truly feeling or like, you know, but I, it just felt. I just.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yeah.

[Susan]

I regret it. I regret saying it and doing that. And I don't think that they ever really give people the outcomes that they want.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Ultimatum is for you.

[Susan]

Right.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

An ultimatum is not to get somebody else to change your behavior. It's you saying, this is what I will tolerate.

[Susan]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And then they have to go make a grown up choice. And you get how, you get how different that is than the way they're usually used as weapons.

[Susan]

Right.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And that's not what they're for. They're for protection for you.

[Susan]

Absolutely. And that's just my misunderstanding is he is.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

He. If you step back five years, 10 years on a trend line, do you see a man that's growing into the man you. You. You see that he can become, or do you see a man who's just a lying, conniving. I'm going to do my own thing. I'm just going to get better at my secrets.

[Susan]

As it currently stands where. Like, where we're at in our relationship, I would say it's probably about 50. 50.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Okay. I think the part you've got to reimagine and rebuild is can I trust you?

[Susan]

Right.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And he has to reimagine with you. Can I trust you? You've got to trust that he's not going to have secret things that y'all together agreed on that go against your agreed upon identity. We are a couple who doesn't engage in that. Cool. And every couple decides those things for themselves. And then if he creates a secret life, that's a violation of the identity y'all decided together. And beneath that, he has to trust you that when he struggles, you're not going to throw some imaginary gauntlet down and say, or imaginary fence down, be like, all right, here's the end of my love this time. Here's the end of my love this time. You both have to rebuild trust with each other. And that might be you looking at him saying, I'm never going to leave you, period. Do you love me? Because I see something better for both of us. I'm worth more than being married to a guy that has to, like, sneak off in the closet and close the door and look up, like, fetish videos or whatever. I feel like I'm worth more than that, and I love you more than that. And. But I'm not gonna be your mom, and I'm gonna be your dad, or, hey, here's where my line is. And I'm gonna hold it firm and vice versa. But I think it's coming back. Like the. How do we heal this? How do we. I think it's both of you sitting on a table saying, okay, here's what is. What is. The last few months have been awful. Let's wipe the table. Will you build something new with me? Here's what must be true. And that means both of you have to sit down and say, here's what I want. I want a marriage without that kind of garbage in my life. He might say, I want a marriage where I'm married to a partner, not to a mom. And we're going to build this thing slowly but surely. My guess here is I don't have a guess. I think this one's going to be tough. I think this one's going to be tough, but I don't want you to compromise. And I want him to feel heard and seen. And that's a tough. That's a tough road to navigate. Thanks for the call, Susan. We'll be right back. Hey, it's Deloney from my friends at Helix, the makers of the best mattresses in the universe. I've spent most of my adult life on like borrowed mattresses or the cheapest mattresses available or some other mattress that over promises and under delivers and I end up hot. I end up tossing and turning. Listen, I've struggled with sleep for most of my adult life, but sleeping on my Helix mattress has transformed my sleep. I'm getting into new levels of deep restorative sleep and they are super comfortable. I love my Helix. Everyone in my home sleeps on a Helix. And now, because I won't shut up about it, my friends and extended family are reaching out for their Helix too. And my friends and family are all different, just like all of you are all different. Everyone sleeps in their own unique way. So Helix has created different mattress models designed for side sleepers and stomach sleepers and back sleepers for everyone. 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And I've been trying out their new better biome gummies to help my gut health improve. And I am loving them too. Go to Organifi.com Deloney right now to save 20% at checkout with Code Deloney that's organifi O R G a n I f I.com DeLoney and use code DeLoney for 20 off. All right, we're back. Let's go out to St. Louis, Missouri and talk to Conrad. Hey, Conrad. What's up, brother?

[Anne]

Hey, how's it going?

[Dr. John DeLoney]

All right, man. How are you?

[Anne]

Hey, I'm well, thank you.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

You got it. What's up, dude?

[Anne]

How can I support my wife through. We're kind of passing now, but we were coming up there on the year anniversary of lose. She had a miscarriage and so just how can I support my wife with feelings of loss and grief and I guess kind of the. It's easier to kind of offload that burden onto her and it's kind of a twofer of, you know, how to. How can I process that loss and grief to help her help with that feeling.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Tell me what you've been experiencing. Tell me what you've, what you've seen and your lived experience with you and your wife.

[Anne]

Well, so just, you know, I, what I. What I think is very common of just.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

No, no, no, no, no. Don't tell other people's story. Tell yours. How's it been?

[Anne]

No, no, I understand the friends announcing pregnancies and, and the children that they already have growing and being a part of lots of friend groups with children and being around children and kind of navigating the, the good Balance of, you know, I want to oogle and ogle with her if a baby's staring at us in public and, you know, talk and dream about that stuff, but. But not turn it into an overwhelming feeling or just not a pester, in a sense, but just not let it get extreme to the point of it's overwhelming to just constantly be around kids or talking about. Then is she.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And she. Is she unable to have that conversation? No, no.

[Anne]

And this, that's. I know that I'm kind of coming to you first. It is, you know, it's just, it's sitting down and having conversations. I just always love the. Your reiteration of having the right tools, you know, just. I love just in life, you know, if you've got the right tools for the job, you're doing it. Boy, it makes the job much, much easier and faster and nicer. And so I just, this is more just making sure that I've got the right tools or that I can sharpen up some of the tools. Because your show, your show has been great. I've been able to listen to women talk about it and their experience and then what you've talked about with them. Of that was able. You know, I was able to already do some things with her and kind of talk about some things, but.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Let me, Let me hop in here. Let me hop in here.

[Conrad]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

All right. So I may not have talked about my experience and I've been through this a bunch. Okay. And you can tell me. No, not my experience at all or. Yeah, dude, I totally get that. First miscarriage and especially second miscarriage, I didn't get it. It was a loss and I was sad and I was bummed out, but it wasn't my body that was changing and it wasn't me. I wasn't staying up all night researching what's about to happen to my body and what's happening to this baby and what stage are we in and might what it look like? And here's sonogram and picture number one and sonogram picture number two. For me and for many, many, many of the men I've sat with over the years, like, it didn't register there with me. In fact, I kicked into, okay, how much money are we going to have? We're going to be able to afford. It was very. Just became very practical for me. I also did not immediately start thinking of. I. I didn't grow up with a lot of little kids around me and I didn't babysit. I didn't have these images Already in my head of toddlers and middle school kids and dances, I didn't have that. My experience has been that countless women find out they're pregnant and they immediately start living into this picture, imagining, what's it going to be like? What's this going to be like? Oh, my gosh. This would be cool. Here's what the nursery will look like. Here's what. What first grade are they going to go to? I just didn't. I didn't go there. I didn't. I didn't even know to. Not an excuse. Just is. And so miscarriage number one. Miscarriage number two. I was unprepared for the disproportionate loss that was felt in my house. I was very sad. I was heartbroken. I was not prepared for my wife's devastation. Does that make sense?

[Anne]

Oh, it's. It's perfect sense, because that is. That's. That's my experience as well, of. I. I had. I had no idea.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

There you go.

[Anne]

I like you. What's that?

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Just heartbroken. Stop right there. Just. Just saying out loud, I didn't know, and I'm sorry. That's huge. Here's number two. There is a sense of loss, like being betrayed by your own body. That's disorienting. Does that make sense?

[Anne]

Yes.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

This idea that you and I will never be able to. We can hear the story. We'll never know internally what that feels like. Like, my body's supposed to do this thing to create life and not take life or not be inhospitable to life or what was going on or what happened. Like, it's this. It's this real quick loop. And this is almost every woman I've ever talked to, has experienced this, has sat down and asked that question. What. What did I do? What happened? And it can get. I mean, it gets very in the weeds. Did I eat something? Did I run? Did I like it? Just. You start going down every variable because you have this picture and you want to. You don't want it to ever happen again, and your body starts creating stories. Here's the big thing. What's important here is her story. Okay? And you saying, I can't be in your body. I can't be in your. In your experience, but I want to know, and I'll sit here with you in the discomfort, and here's a couple of ways you can do that. Did y'all give this. This child that you lost? Did you give. You. Did you give him or her name?

[Anne]

After. After hearing you speak with Some others, we. I had just brought it up to, you know, what. What would you have done? What would I have done? And we just, you know, it was nothing direct, but just like, hey, what name is the first one that popped into your head?

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Did y'all come up with one?

[Anne]

Yeah, we did.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

What was the name?

[Anne]

Bella?

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Okay. I am somebody who believes deeply that speaking the names is important. That's just. That's me, and that's the people I've sat with. But speaking the name is important. Coming up on, like, maybe the first year anniversary, there can be something cathartic and healing about you both. Writing a letter to Bella on what would have been her one year birthday and saying, we miss you and we hope you're resting easy in heaven. And me and mom are being intentional about choosing Joy in the present, but just being honest, writing those things down, getting them out of your body and getting them onto paper. And then here's the big thing. Being a witness to sitting with each other and reading them out loud. Because the worst part about grief is not the worst part. There's a whole bunch of bad stuff about grief, but one of the worst parts about grief is miss. It's the misalignment. You're sitting in your own house, on your own couch, and she thinks you shouldn't be over it yet, and you think she should be over it yet. And you see this amazing baby in line at Target, and you want to hug the baby, and she's like, how could you? And it's this misalignment, and you feel like you're on an island, but you're sitting on the same couch together. You get what I'm saying?

[Anne]

Oh, yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

So it's about aligning grief. It's about aligning the pictures so that she feels permission that when you are hugging a baby in public, you are just gaga goo gooing and all the stuff. Or when your friend calls you and says, like, dude, I'm having a baby. And you go, yeah, all right. And you that you won't have permission to say that out loud. You want to celebrate that? And she has permission to go, boo. Both are true. You get what I'm saying?

[Anne]

Yeah, I do.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

But I think there's something important about a name. There's something important about a marker, a ceremony, and there's something important, and that's different for everybody. I got some friends who did a small thing one time 20 years ago, and cool. I went and got the names tattooed on my body. They're on. They're on my Body next to my kids. Names are tattooed on me. Like, everybody does it differently. It's not a right or wrong way to do it. The thing is, you need to do a thing. And to give her permission, your wife permission, to tell the story a year later. And maybe that is you being real brave and saying, hey, tonight after dinner, I want to do something kind of weird, and it's going to be heavy. Are you in? Oh, gosh, Conrad. What now? I want to. I want to talk about Bella. And she'll go cold, right? She would freeze if you said that, wouldn't she?

[Anne]

Yeah. Yeah, you know, she'd be quiet.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

But say, I want to hear your story. What are the things I don't know? And your job is just to sit there and show up in that discomfort so that she's not alone. And you, brother, if you haven't yet, I want you to be honest, too, about it all. Because it wasn't until my wife told her story to me that I exhaled and I got to be honest with myself. I was way sadder than I had let on. I was way saddered. I. Than I had even acknowledged with myself. That loss was bigger than I'd even thought. Ugh. I'm sorry for both of y'all's loss, my brother. Grief demands a witness. Story's gotta be told. The name's gotta be said. And grief demands people sit in that discomfort, not with solutions and not with a bunch of answers and not with a bunch of you shoulds and just. I hear you, man. I'm sorry. And for everybody listening, somebody else's joy does not diminish your hurt or your pain. Both can be true. And what I have found in my own life is celebrating other people's joys. Especially when I'm hurting, not hiding from their joys. I can't go over there to that birthday party, not after. Celebrating their joys has become one of the greatest antidotes to my own hurt. Because your body begins to realize there is laughter and there is life. And the sun does come up, even when you can't see it. Thanks for the call, brother Conrad. Appreciate you, man. Everybody who experiences it, Pregnancy, loss. It's hard, hard breaking. It's gut wrenching. Sit with each other, write the stories and say the names. We'll be right back. Fall is here, everybody. And that means. No, not pumpkin spice, please, no more pumpkin spice. It means that I get to spend every waking moment in my flannel and soft denim shirts from Poncho, the world's best performance Shirts for men. All Poncho shirts are great and their flannels and soft denims kind of remind me of when I was younger and I wanted to be in Sound Garden and Pearl Jam. But listen, the real reason I love Poncho flannels is because they're soft, yet incredibly durable and incredibly comfortable. They have a little bit of stretch, so they move with you, not against you, and they dry quickly and they have slim and regular fits for different body types. And you can wear these shirts for outdoor adventures, outdoor work, and off to dinner with your wife or to the concert with your friends. Poncho shirts will make amazing gifts for the men in your family. This holiday season. Head to poncho outdoors.com and check out all of their styles. Enter code Deloney at checkout to get a free T shirt or a hat with any purchase of a button down shirt, go to Poncho Outdoors and use code Deloney. All right, we're back with Anne. Let's go out to Baltimore, Maryland. What's up, Anne?

[Conrad]

Hi.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

How are you?

[Conrad]

I'm good.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

How are you?

[Conrad]

Thank you so much for taking my call. I'm so excited. I listen to you every day, but I'm also extremely nervous.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Okay. Number one, there's so many other good podcasts you should listen to. And don't be nervous. I'm not that. I'm not that good at this job.

[Conrad]

Yes, you are. I listen. You offer lots of good advice and perspective. So I, you know, I'm very appreciative to get this call today.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Well, you're, you're, you're too kind. You're too kind. You're an antidote to how mean Kelly is to me. All right? So let's cannonball all the way and go for it.

[Conrad]

Okay. So basically what I'm looking for is somebody to give me an honest opinion. I've been to three couples counselors. I've been married 15 years, and I'm trying to figure out if I need to just go ahead and file for separation, move forward with divorce, or go to this couples counseling that Christian's couples counseling my husband asked me to go to, which he's never done before.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

That may be one of the best questions I've ever been asked because it's so layered. I love how layered. You made that?

[Conrad]

Yes. It's very, very complicated.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

So good. Okay, I'll ask you. Let's just reverse engineer the whole thing.

[Conrad]

Okay.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Give me your gut answer. Don't, don't. Don't qualify it. Don't maybe just Give me your straight from your guts answer. Okay?

[Conrad]

My gut answer is divorce.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Okay?

[Conrad]

And that's only because a year and a half ago.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

No, you're trying to qualify it. Just say divorce. Sit on it. Sit on it.

[Conrad]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

I want to leave him forever.

[Conrad]

Yes.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Exhale on that. Not demand evidence from it. Is that true?

[Conrad]

Yes.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Okay.

[Conrad]

Because I don't believe people can change anymore.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

I disagree with you on there, but that doesn't matter. What matters is you said the words out loud. I want a divorce. This is over, Period.

[Conrad]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And anytime I have those big stories in my head that are floating around. Floating around, floating around. By the way, I have had that story in my head, too, okay? And I wrote it down and I sat in it and lived in it, and I changed my mind. And that's not everybody's path. And I don't even know what happened in your life. But here's. Here's. As you laid out that question, here's what I heard in that question. Something big happened or has happened over a period of time, and you're exhausted. And you've never had autonomy and power in your marriage to make a choice or a decision. And now that you're making one, it feels awkward and weird and obscenely heavy.

[Conrad]

100%.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Okay.

[Conrad]

Something changed this year. Like, too many things have happened, and I finally feel like I made a decision. Like I.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

What happened?

[Conrad]

I just. I feel differently. Well, I had back to back surgeries and zero help, still having to take care of the kids, take care of me, and I felt that showed me a lot. And then he had a lot of issues with his mother because his dad passed away two years ago, having to take care of her. And he couldn't put himself aside for the kids for every single holiday was ruined this year. And it just made me think very differently about how I want our household with our kids, and then also realizing that my wants are never going to be met either. And maybe it's better for everybody if I show them what a happy house is.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Okay, exhale on that. You're holding your breath. Drop your shoulders down.

[Conrad]

I know I'm stressed out.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

I know. I can feel it.

[Conrad]

Okay.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yeah, you said it out loud. Now I'm going to kind of poke holes in your story, and I want you to not to just accept what I'm saying, but I want you to push back on me. Okay. If we've been together 15 years and we've created humans, how many kids you got? 2.

[Susan]

3.

[Conrad]

3.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

3. Gosh. This may be the worst marriage thing I've ever said, if you get a hit in baseball, three out of 10 times, they put you in the hall of Fame. So that's a bad. A bad analogy, but you get what I'm saying. If he had one bad year, his dad dies, he just blew it. The other 14 years, it's been fine. It's been all right. That's one thing. And I would challenge you to explore a guy who's begging you to go to therapy. Please go to a counselor with me. I blew it. You had surgery. I didn't show up for you, my mom got sick or my dad died, whatever. Like, I just went bananas and I blew it.

[Conrad]

But he'd have to actually feel that way. He doesn't feel that way.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Okay, so. But that tells me that either you're annoyed by him because it's bad. I mean, you hate him. This, the past year, you've put you through hell. Or this is the cap on 15 years worth. So walk me before this year, what has been going on for the last 15 years?

[Conrad]

It's been a sexless marriage from the get go. Like, he told me before we got married, it's because it was religious reasons, which we had sex. But, you know, he felt better when we were married. But even when we got married, it was one time the entire year. And that it was exactly like that after that, once every few years. And it was so bad for me because it made me feel horrible as a person that I was cutting. And because of his upbringing, he had zero responses, like, okay, and I just wanted him to hear me, how it's affecting me. I made him go to couples counseling. We did three different couples counselors. We've been kicked out of everyone. And I'm just kind of.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Why have you been kicked out?

[Conrad]

The first one, when I was. When I was pregnant with my second, and it's because the counselor said he wasn't. He knew what to do and he wasn't willing to do the work. So no affection, no, you know, none of that in the house. I was working on how I talked to him to make sure I was, you know, serving his ego, making him feel better, not putting him down, not comparing him to, like, how awesome my dad is or whatever it was. So that was that. We waited a while. Then I. When I was. Went through two miscarriages before my daughter, which let me just lead by saying all three of my kids are IVF babies. So we're not having lots of sex that have those. Those are. I was gonna say different story.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

If you if you were in person with me, just to lighten the mood, I was gonna be like, well, at least you're three for three, right? But you. You weren't even that, right?

[Conrad]

No, no, no, Exactly. So. So I went to another counselor. Cause I basically. I had two miscarriages, and I was like, I'm not gonna be complete unless I have one more kid. So knowing that was the wrong decision. I mean, it wasn't wrong decision. I love my children. But I basically told him, if it's not you, it's going to be somebody else. I want to use my eggs. My body doesn't work before. There's no opportunity. And, you know, that therapist ended up leaving, sending us to a guy to see if he was more comfortable. And that guy gave up, too. He was just like, this is not working. You two have two different things. He needs to work on him.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

If you circle back and listen to this call, and it'd be hard because it's weird when you hear your own voice, right? That's always weird. But for the people listening and for you, if you want to discern it, when you talked about you, I hear a strength and a resolve at the beginning of this call, okay? When you start talking about him, your whole cadence changes. Your voice pitch changes. You're mad and you're angry that this dude has taken a decade and a half of your life. What I want to tell you is if you make decisions when you are angry, those are by definition going to be decisions that are not involving all the variables in the next right move, okay? So what I want you to do is to feel empowered, but I want you to own the last decade and a half. Here's what I mean by that. I want you to say the words, I have put up with this for a decade and a half. I have sought healing. I have sought trying to get his attention through 55,000 different. Like, here's the deal. I want you to get into the driver's seat of your own life. Because when you talk about him, you sound like you got thrown in the trunk. And I want you to make whatever decision you're going to make next, because it's going to alter your entire life. I want you to make it from the driver's seat, not from the trunk, okay? And all that means is you take ownership. And when you start taking full ownership, you're going to have a season of deep grief, okay? Because all this mad you've had at him is going to come back to you, right?

[Conrad]

Because I'm going to Be the one that's ruining everything.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

No, no, no, no, no, no, no. You're going to recognize that you were participated in this for a decade and a half.

[Conrad]

Mm, I allowed it.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

You didn't allow it. You're not his mom. You participated in it.

[Conrad]

Okay.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

You co created this thing.

[Conrad]

But I tried to fix it.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yes, you did.

[Conrad]

I thought free at all because I got on meds. I've been seeing a therapist for 15 years.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

You've worked your, you' tried butt off. You've worked your butt off. Okay? And I've said this a lot on the show and people can agree with me or disagree with me. I think fidelity is, is a much fuller picture. This man got married to you and said I do not want to participate in a marriage with you, period. And you have gone to hell and back to make sure you did your part right. And so my bigger question to you is, you sound very resolved at the beginning of this call. What do you think you haven't done yet?

[Conrad]

I don't, I don't. It's not that I don't think I haven't done yet. I just know I'm. I just want to know that I'm right, that I do deserve better. That there is like, there's such thing as like a happy marriage with like affection and all those things like that does exist. I don't know. I don't want to leave selfishly for just me. But it's not just the sex. It's also follow through of getting things done. There's just so many things. I know there's going to be an issue no matter who you're with, but I don't want to blow up my kids world just selfishly for me.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And I think my 30,000 foot view is your house has already blown up. The real question is, are you going to get the kids to safety or is safety going to be found where you are? There's just a different path towards it.

[Conrad]

Yeah, I mean I don't think they're.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

What does your husband think he's going to accomplish by this new therapy, this new whatever?

[Conrad]

I don't know. I think he's thinking that it's going to be all fine and I'll like pacifier again for a little bit, but none of it, nothing's ever changed. Like there's no resolve.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Why does he want to stay married to you?

[Conrad]

I don't. I think because he's an only child and he's realized over the last year he's had issues at work that everyone's seeing what I see for once, that he has an obsession with baseball. And anything outside of that that he's not interested in, he doesn't do. He can't return phone calls, he can't pay the bills, but he has to have control of the bills. Like those kind of weird things that he can't even give me an explanation on. Like he can't tell me why he doesn't do it. But it's just a multitude of things that it's almost embarrassing. Like I'm embarrassed. So it's hard for me to lift somebody up that I'm not proud of.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yeah. So behavior is a language. You've heard me say that a bunch. And so it's pretty clear what he thinks about you and your kids and your household and your marriage, right?

[Conrad]

Yeah, but he's delusional. He's going to act like I blindsided him, but I've been telling him, but I think his life, he grew up, you know, with an alcoholic mother. He's an only child. She had nothing. I mean, she had something to do, she lived in the house. But the world revolved around her, not him. Dad was the loving one. She was the abusive alcoholic. And I don't know if she abused him. I don't know because he just, it's a blank, blank spot. He can't remember his upbringing.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

So let me say this. You can't go forward with a divorce. You can't go forward with your next right move and suddenly expect somebody who has not loved you, cared for you, cared for these kids, been willing to sit down and co create something new, do all the work. You can't suddenly expect that in the transition.

[Conrad]

Right.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

So as you're telling me, he can't even give me an explanation as to why he doesn't pay bills. He can't give me an explanation as to why he values baseball over our kids. He can't give you an explanation as to why he won't be sexually interested with his wife after a decade and a half.

[Conrad]

No, he won't. He can't give me a reason. I've been asking, I was like, were you abused? Are you? Yeah, I know, but listen, I've asked everything.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

You're making yourself crazy there.

[Conrad]

No, I know. Because then I start wondering like if it's not me. Because people, if you ask anybody else, they're like, oh, they're gay. If they're not gay, then, oh, they're, you know, it's somewhere else and it drives you crazy.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. You're looking for an absolution that will never come.

[Conrad]

Okay.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Because if you're never going to get that answer, if he could have given you that answer, you wouldn't be in this position right now.

[Conrad]

That's true.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

If he told you the truth from the gecko, you wouldn't be in this position right now. If going to professional help and not getting fired by 1, 2, 3 different professionals. Right. And by the way, good on them. It's unethical to take somebody's money that just can't, you know? I mean, it's like a contractor, like, who's unable to build a house in the area that somebody wants them to build. It's unethical. Take their money. Say, good on your therapist.

[Conrad]

True.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

No, I know, but therapists need to eat. So when they fire you, that's a big deal. Right?

[Conrad]

Well, I know. And the other thing is, I've learned also from a friend that a normal therapist is not going to tell you how it is. They're just going to listen. They need to be a doctor level that can actually call you on your bull. So I think that's where I messed up, too. I should have found a different type of therapist. I don't know.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Here's the deal. The days of reflection for you have to end at some point.

[Conrad]

Okay.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

You spend every minute of your day looking in the mirror at Ann.

[Conrad]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

What have you done? What did you not done? What did you say? What did you didn't say? It's been a decade and a half. Fair.

[Conrad]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

At this point, reflection, looking in the mirror, listening to another podcast, reading another book, going to find another professional is a. It's a Xanax. It's a way to delay going forward.

[Conrad]

Right. And it's better for the kids. Right.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

I can't.

[Conrad]

For kids to see love. I know you can't tell me that.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

No, I'll tell you. I think that can be a straw man sometimes.

[Conrad]

Okay.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

So it's yes. A loving household full of joy and laughter and connected relationships with two parents is statistically better for children. And so people always ask, like, well, then we should just get divorced because we don't have that. My answer is always no. Get that. Right. Two people can decide who's chosen a miserable marriage, can choose an awesome one. They literally can choose that. And everybody listening, you're going, no, they can't. They for sure can.

[Conrad]

If you choose to make changes.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

If you choose to make changes, and if you have a partner that's looking at you saying I don't love you enough to do this? I don't love them enough to do this. Can I just toot my own horn for one quick second? In 2018, maybe. Maybe 17 or 18, I got a new fancy job, and my gift to myself was a major league ticket. All the baseball games.

[Conrad]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And you just probably broke out in hive, didn't you? That's like one of your triggers.

[Conrad]

Like, I hate baseball, but I live it every day.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

I'm a lifelong Astros fan. And they were. Finally had a good team.

[Conrad]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And I was coming home from work exhausted, and I was laying down on the tv, and I had a young, young little boy, dad, let's go play baseball. Let's just watch this Astros. Let's go play baseball, dad. Let's go watch the Astros. And one day, my son asked me, and he wasn't being manipulative. He wasn't. He wasn't old enough to be manipulative. He was just literally asking for facts. Dad, do you love me as much as the Astros? I canceled that ticket that day. It's off. I turned it off because what my son was seeing in real time was how obsessed I was with this baseball team.

[Conrad]

Okay? And all he was kind of crazy. I'm like, you're talking about a ticket. And I. My life revolves around baseball.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Like, I know, but. But I need you to say, sometimes I got it wrong. I thought I could have my cake and eat it, too. I thought I could go work 14 hours a day on behalf of my family and keep up with my lifelong. Since I was a little bitty. Since I was zero baseball team. And I thought I could crash on the couch and just relax. And I thought I could do quality dad kid time all at the same time. And an innocent question from a three or four or five. I don't know how old he was. And he wasn't trying to say, do you love me more than baseball? You gotta choose. He wasn't doing that. He was just saying, I see you love that. I wonder where I stand, right? And boom, we're off. And I lived on a steep, steep, steep hill, and I chased baseballs up and down the street because he was a kid. And he would throw them sideways or he'd miss the. Right. Right. It became part of it. But here's the thing. As a choice I made, behavior's a language, Right?

[Conrad]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

What I'm telling you is. And I'm not better than anybody else. It's just. I just. I just happen to have that real life Situation happen in my house?

[Conrad]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Does my son know I love the Astros? Yep. Do I miss games? Yep.

[Conrad]

But you chose him.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

I choose him, Yeah. I choose my wife.

[Conrad]

I think that's amazing, but I. We don't have that.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Okay.

[Conrad]

I changed real choose reality. I know, but here's the thing. How do I protect him? Because the other thing that changed is this obsession. I've noticed now, just to give a snippet is, you know, he didn't get picked to be assistant coach. And so instead of being a man about it, he decided it's a good idea. Let's tell our children what a bad coach you have. He didn't pick Daddy. He's a liar, and I lost it. You do not involve children and adult problems. And now it's happened two times.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

I know, but I'm not going to.

[Conrad]

His game like I was.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

I know, but do you see? It's like he's immature. He's immature. He's immature. He's immature. He's wildly immature. He's painfully immature. He's unwell, unwell, unwell, painfully unwell. And then he does something immature and unwell, and you're like, no way. Right?

[Conrad]

Well, yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

You have to choose to start living in reality and stop being surprised. And what you've done is every time you set yourself up for maybe this time, boom. Maybe this time, boom. And that's preventing you from taking the next step. I'm not going to tell you to divorce your husband. I'm not going to do that. That's your call.

[Conrad]

Right.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

I'm not going to tell you to leave your husband. I'm going to tell you behavior is a language.

[Conrad]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And if you go back and listen to this, you seem very resolved in your next step. That's what I hear.

[Conrad]

I think so, too. I think I just need to pull up my pants and just be prepared for it to be bad.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Have you sat on written on a piece of paper, here's what must be true, and handed it to your husband?

[Conrad]

No, I'm afraid to.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Why?

[Conrad]

I'm. Because he only has him and his mom and he doesn't have true friendships. And I'm scared if I do that since I've cleaned up every mess ever made that. What if there's either he loses completely loses control.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Are you scared of him being violent, Ann?

[Conrad]

I don't know. I don't know what to expect because last time I tried to leave a couple times. I'm afraid if he realizes he's finally losing it all, that he's gonna either be suicidal or be the upset he'll lose his on me. I don't know.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Has he ever been suicidal before?

[Conrad]

No.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Okay. Has he ever been violent to you before?

[Conrad]

No. Punched a wall, not me.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Okay. That's significant.

[Conrad]

Yeah. And I'm nervous. I'm nervous because. Yeah, I don't know, I'm just. I'm scared that it's gonna be a narcissist losing their.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

You can't. You can't control the other side of this thing. Okay, fair. So you can't control the other side. If you think he's going to be violent, then you have him served. If you think he's going to go off and do something irresponsible, call 911. I'll also say if you've never written down on a piece of paper, here's what must be true, here's what I want and need in this marriage. No baseball, no major league ticket. We will pay bills together. We will be a household that. If you haven't done that, try it. And if you know in your guts we're past that, then do the next right thing. But yes, kids deserve to grow up in a home that they walk in the door and it feels safe inside. And yes, I'm right on this. Having two parents in that house that are connected and loved and provide that stability and safety. Not conflict free. Conflict's actually good because it shows kids, two people can be in conflict and still be on the same team, that's the best. But coming home and having a dad, that's so scary that you're afraid to even say, hey, here's what I need. A dad that is so devoid of responsibility and security and safety. Yeah, it's not a good place. I wish you the best, sister. Get people to walk with you, sit down with an attorney and walk through every nuance here. Sit down with a couple of girlfriends that you can text 247365 as you enter into this process, get some people to walk with you. Thanks for the call. We'll be right back. All right, good folks, I want to tell you about Cozy Earth. The holidays are on us like a freight train. And these stores keep playing the little drummer boy over and over. Can we just be done with the pahrumpa pum pums? Listen, at this time of year, we need to create peaceful environments, especially a peaceful sleep environment. And I call mine my sleep sanctuary. And for me and my family, a big part of our sleep sanctuary includes bedding and bath linens and comfortable Clothes from Cozy Earth. Listen, y'all know I love the sheets and I love the bath towels and all the good stuff there, but you don't know that Cozy Earth has amazing hoodies and crew neck T shirts. They're called Cityscape hoodies and crew necks and they come in men's and women's and kids sizes. I can't stop wearing them. And my wife loves Cozy Earth's long sleeve bamboo pajama set. They're so amazing. And just wait till you feel the Cozy Earth cuddle blanket. It's big, it's heavy, it's super soft. It just makes you go. All of these things make incredible gifts during the holidays. And don't forget, Cozy earth offers a 10 year warranty on all of their bedding. So amid the holiday chaos and the pampa pom poms, you can create your own peaceful sanctuaries, your own peaceful sleep sanctuaries with Cozy earth. Go to cozyearth.com DeLoney and use code Deloney for an exclusive discount for up to 40% off. That's cozy earth.com deloney and if you get a post purchase, survey, say that you heard about Cozy Earth on this podcast. All right, we're back. Hey, before we read the social post real quick, Kelly, there seemed to be a theme in today's show which is like rules versus boundaries versus just the whole thing just feels messy.

[E]

Actually, that's what the Social post was about. So we can, instead of the social post, we can just talk about that. But I'd never heard you talk about the difference between rules and boundaries being. Rules are for them, boundaries are for you. So just clarify that a little bit, if you would, about what are boundaries? What are rules? I mean, rules sound to me like a parent thing because I have rules for my kids, but not for my husband.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yeah, like a rule. I have rules with my kids. When I think of rule. And again, people in the comments world, like, I could be wrong on this. Here's the way I, I, I. It maps out in my head. Rules infer a power hierarchy. I come to work at a place, they say, here are the rules you will abide by to work here. Cool. I can opt in or I can opt out, right? My kids. You are my kids. I have dominion over you. I am your dad. This is your mother. We will tell you what happens in this house. Now, as a part of educating them, of course we're going to bring them along. But there are rules in our house. There are rules in restaurants, there are rules to live in A society, you have to drive this speed. And even the other day, my car may or may not be unregistered right now. And a policeman got behind us and got real, real close. And I was with Josephine. We were on our date, Daddy, daughter date. And I was like, I'm pretty sure I'm about to get a ticket. She goes, what does that mean? And I said, they're gonna turn the lights on. It's gonna be a whole thing. We'll pull over, they'll give daddy a ticket because Daddy's breaking the rules. She, my eight year old, launched into this tirade. It was every bit. It could have just been word for word, a new Rage Against a Machine song. They don't have a right to do that. They're just driving around judging people. They don't get to make all these rules. They don't get to just tell you a hundred times what, what you have to do and how you have to drive. And I looked at her and I was like, they for sure do. That's their job. She's like, yeah, they're just judging everybody. And I said, hey, I opted to drive on these communal roads. These roads have rules. And she's like, that's ridiculous. And you and mom do it too. It just went in, this whole thing. And so yeah, yeah, everybody pray for me. It's. Teenagers are going to be tough up in here. Up in here. So rules. Are you agreed to it or just by nature? There's power. Boundary is a thing that I put into the world that keeps me safe, keeps us safe. And a boundary suggests. When a couple makes a boundary, it suggests something egalitarian. We are doing this together to keep us safe. And so us, we don't want a bunch of wild pornography in our marriage. We're going to put this boundary up. Are you in? I'm in. You hold this gate, I'll hold this gate. We are not going to be consensually, non monogamy. A non monogamous. You can't sleep with somebody. I will sleep with somebody. It's a boundary we're putting on this relationship. Right. Or whatever. The thing is, your parents can't just show up at our house on random Tuesdays and stay for four weeks. That's a boundary we put on our house. Right. That seems like something we do together and often couples. Somebody doesn't get what they want and it just gets real paternalistic or maternalistic real fast. You will. You will not. So that's just the way. I don't know that's the way I think about it. If you find yourself in a marriage relationship and you find yourself making rules for your partner, that is a relationship that is not going to make it. That is about. I think I am better than you, that I have power over you, and you will do this thing if you're going to be with this. All right. And that's just a recipe for somebody. What happened in that first call is, all right, then I'm out. Boundaries are who are about identity. Who are we going to be and how are we going to unify to protect this thing? Does that ring true?

[E]

Oh, it does. I. Like I said, I'd never heard boundaries and rules described that way, but it makes sense of I'm doing this boundary to protect me, not because I'm telling you what, you know, wagging my finger and telling you what you have to do.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yeah. And here's the thing. I think all these calls had this in common. Not the call about loss, but the first and last call had this. People can hear your rules or your. Your boundaries, they can walk away. Right? Amazon just said everybody's coming back to work five days a week. All other employees are like, bye, Felicia. Like, right. They have to deal with that. Or, hey, we're a couple that doesn't cheat on each other. Yeah, I cheated on you. All right, then you like. And I don't think our culture gives us psychology. So you got to do boundaries. You got to do this. You got to cut people. We don't have a good psychology for self worth when someone says, all right, I'm out. So there you go. This is a. This is a tough show. It's kind of a like a show, like, there's a gritty other side to boundaries and my rules. And there's. Sometimes people leave, sometimes people don't. It doesn't work out. And. And easy to be like, good riddance. Hurts hard. See you guys next time. Love y'all. Bye.