I’m Still Sexually Attracted to My Ex-Wife

Summary

The Dr. John DeLoney Show

Episode: I’m Still Sexually Attracted to My Ex-Wife
Release Date: May 19, 2025
Host: Ramsey Network

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Introduction

In this episode of The Dr. John DeLoney Show, host Dr. John DeLoney addresses complex relationship dynamics and mental health challenges through real-life caller interactions. The episode delves into the lingering sexual attraction to an ex-spouse, rebuilding a strained marriage amidst depression, and overcoming long-held guilt from past infidelities. Dr. DeLoney offers compassionate insights and practical advice to help listeners navigate these emotional terrains.

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Caller Segment 1: TJ – Struggling with Attraction to Ex-Wife

Timestamp: [00:05] - [05:55]

Issue Presented: TJ calls in seeking guidance on moving past his sexual attraction to his ex-wife. Despite engaging in new relationships, he finds them unfulfilling compared to his marriage of 23 years, from which he has been divorced for three years.

Key Discussions & Insights:

• Depth of Long-Term Relationships:
  Dr. DeLoney emphasizes that TJ's continued attraction may stem not just from sexual desire but also from the profound emotional and intimate connection built over two decades.

  "Married couples who are in their 40s and 50s are having the best sex. That's because they know each other deeply and have a safety and relational stability."
  [03:15]

• Transition from Marriage to Hookups:
  The conversation highlights the challenge of shifting from a committed, intimate partnership to casual relationships, which often feel superficial in comparison.

  "You're hooking up with people, and that's a show. You're doing your greatest hits, so that can be exhausting because you're not being you."
  [04:48]

• Grieving and Letting Go:
  Dr. DeLoney advises TJ to fully grieve the end of his marriage, acknowledging the pain and depth of his past relationship to prevent it from overshadowing new relationships.

  "Pause for a minute, grieve that thing fully. Get your gang and then date somebody new and be open."
  [10:21]

• Accepting the Past and Embracing the Future:
  The host encourages TJ to honor his past while consciously choosing not to compare new partners to his ex-wife, fostering a mindset of moving forward.

  "Honor what was you loved her and if you believe you did right by her for 20 plus years, then honor that. Exhale, drop your shoulders."
  [11:22]

Conclusion: Dr. DeLoney underscores the importance of internal resolution and emotional closure. By grieving the past and embracing new relationships without baggage, listeners like TJ can find peace and fulfillment in their romantic lives.

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Caller Segment 2: Nicole – Rebuilding Her Marriage Amidst Depression

Timestamp: [20:19] - [41:05]

Issue Presented: Nicole reaches out seeking advice on rebuilding her marriage after struggling with depression for five years. Her depression impacted household responsibilities, leading to strained trust and consideration of divorce by her husband.

Key Discussions & Insights:

• Impact of Depression on Marriage:
  Nicole shares how her untreated depression led to neglecting household chores, causing tension and diminishing her husband’s trust.

  "I've been struggling with depression... keeping our house clean was getting neglected."
  [20:38]

• Progress Through Counseling:
  She notes significant improvement after seeking counseling and working on her mental health, leading to a cleaner home and better family relationships.

  "I've been in counseling, and God has been helping me for the last three months, healing and growing."
  [22:25]

• Strategies for Rebuilding Trust:
  Dr. DeLoney provides actionable steps for rebuilding trust, such as open communication, setting realistic expectations, and engaging in joint activities to strengthen the marital bond.

  "Do it weekly. Talk about your money, talk about your sex life, and commit to each other to not use the word 'you'."
  [35:05]

• Addressing Childhood Influences:
  The conversation touches on how childhood experiences with parents struggling with depression can affect adult relationships and self-perception.

  "For a child, children do so much to try to stay connected when a parent is struggling. You did that your whole childhood."
  [26:01]

• Practical Exercises for Healing:
  Nicole is guided through exercises like journaling negative self-talk and physically symbolizing the release of guilt, helping her move forward emotionally.

  "Buy a cinder block, duct tape it, carry it around until you can’t, then throw it on the ground. I forgive you."
  [30:15]

Conclusion: Dr. DeLoney emphasizes the necessity of mutual effort and understanding in healing a marriage affected by depression. By fostering open dialogue, respecting each other's struggles, and practicing forgiveness, couples like Nicole and her husband can rebuild a stronger, more resilient relationship.

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Caller Segment 3: Heather – Overcoming Guilt from Past Affair

Timestamp: [44:03] - [51:00]

Issue Presented: Heather calls in to discuss the lingering guilt from an affair she had at age 21. Recently contacted by her former partner, she confessed to her husband, seeking to alleviate her burden of secrecy and shame.

Key Discussions & Insights:

• Long-Term Guilt and Secrecy:
  Heather reveals that the affair has haunted her for years, impacting her self-worth and relationship with her husband.

  "I've been carrying around some guilt about it, like it's a horrible thing to do."
  [45:06]

• Confession and Husband’s Reaction:
  After confessing to her husband, Heather struggles with his stoic response, unsure if she has truly alleviated her guilt.

  "He was kind of stunned... he doesn't really want to think about it."
  [47:00]

• Understanding the Source of Guilt:
  Dr. DeLoney explores the root of Heather’s guilt, distinguishing between the act itself and the prolonged secrecy that exacerbates her emotional burden.

  "The intensity of the guilt is more around keeping this big secret from your husband rather than the affair itself."
  [49:27]

• Exercises for Letting Go:
  Heather is advised to engage in symbolic acts to release her guilt, such as carrying a weighted object to represent her burden and then discarding it.

  "Carry it around until you can’t, then throw it on the ground. I forgive you."
  [37:00]

• Rebuilding Trust Through Transparency:
  Emphasizing honesty and open communication, Dr. DeLoney encourages Heather to lay all secrets on the table to rebuild trust with her husband.

  "Make sure the secrets are all out. Because if you go forward and you still have shadows, it just makes it hard to see."
  [41:10]

Conclusion: Dr. DeLoney provides Heather with strategies to overcome her deep-seated guilt by fostering transparency and forgiveness. By addressing past actions openly and practicing self-forgiveness, individuals like Heather can move past their mistakes and heal their relationships.

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Key Takeaways:

1. Emotional Closure is Essential: Whether dealing with lingering attraction, depression, or past infidelities, achieving emotional closure is crucial for personal healing and moving forward.

2. Open Communication Builds Trust: Transparent and honest conversations are fundamental in rebuilding and strengthening relationships strained by past issues.

3. Practical Exercises Aid Healing: Engaging in symbolic acts, such as journaling and physical representations of letting go, can facilitate the emotional release necessary for healing.

4. Mutual Effort is Paramount: Rebuilding relationships requires dedication and effort from both parties, emphasizing the importance of teamwork and shared commitment.

5. Self-Forgiveness is Key: Forgiving oneself is a critical step in overcoming guilt and shame associated with past actions, enabling individuals to embrace a healthier future.

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Notable Quotes:

• On Long-Term Relationships:

  "Married couples who are in their 40s and 50s are having the best sex... because they know what makes your toenails curl."
  [03:15]

• On Grieving the Past:

  "Pause for a minute, grieve that thing fully. Get your gang and then date somebody new and be open."
  [10:21]

• On Rebuilding Trust:

  "Do it weekly. Talk about your money, talk about your sex life, and commit to each other to not use the word 'you'."
  [35:05]

• On Letting Go of Guilt:

  "Carry it around until you can’t, then throw it on the ground. I forgive you."
  [37:00]

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Conclusion

In this episode, Dr. John DeLoney addresses deep-seated emotional issues affecting relationships, providing listeners with empathetic guidance and actionable steps toward healing and rebuilding. Through understanding, communication, and self-forgiveness, individuals can navigate their mental health challenges and cultivate healthier, more fulfilling relationships.

Transcript

[TJ]

How do I move past my sexual attraction to my ex wife? I've had relationships with new women, but it never seems to gratify the same way as it did with my ex wife.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Is this about sex or is this about a 20 year relationship where somebody knows everything about you and there's a deep, safe, intimate connection there? What's up? What's up, John? With the Dr. John DeLoney show coming to you not live, that kind of feels like it is, right, Kelly? Kind of feels like it is.

[Kelly]

Well, I mean, we're live in the fact that we're all in here doing this show right now, but when the people hear us, it will have been.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

I think one day we're gonna do the show. There's gonna be like some big wild thing and we're just gonna be like, beep be dee doo, like before COVID when all those people had recorded their shows.

[Kelly]

Right? Because. Yeah, I mean, so from the time we record this until it releases, it's a good five weeks, four weeks, no more than that. And so, yeah, you know, things happen in that amount of time and we're just like, la, la, la.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

We transcend the dailies.

[Kelly]

Yeah, I'm worried about, like, baseball. Season has started and spring is here.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

You know, I don't really care about baseball because the Astros traded away everybody. That's why I'm a huge believer in the Nashville stars, because my Astros gave everybody away. So we just need the White Sox to have one more really obnoxiously bad year. They can just move on down south to the Nashvilles. I don't even know if that's supposed to be how it works out, but that's what I'm hoping for. Hey, glad that you're with us on this show. Kind of distracted today because Kelly got a new tattoo. She got a dragon across her stomach. And if you're wondering, was it weird when she showed us? Yep, it was. But I'm glad that you're here talking about your mental and emotional health, your relationships, your co workers who just get weird tattoos and just feel the need to show you.

[Kelly]

Oh, so you're gonna talk about weird tattoos.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

All right, let's go out to Phoenix. Tj. What's up, brother?

[TJ]

Not much. What are you up to, sir?

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Dude, I am rocking on to the break of dawn, brother. Just chilling.

[TJ]

Are you?

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yeah. What about you?

[TJ]

Good, good. Oh, you know, just enjoying life. Excellent in the warm, in the great area here.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Awesome. What's up?

[TJ]

Well, my question to you is, is how do I move past my sexual Attraction to my ex wife.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

How do you move on from your sexual attraction to your fy ex wife? I need some more context. I, I would, I would assume you're still sexually attracted to her. That's not a strange assumption. So tell me, tell me what you're struggling with.

[TJ]

Well, we were married for 23 years and we've now been divorced for, for three years. And you know, I, I've had relationships with, with new women and whatever else, but it, it never seems to gratify or satiate the same way as it did with, with my ex wife.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Is this about sex or is this about a 20 year relationship where somebody knows everything about you and there's a deep, safe intimate that always.

[TJ]

I would say it would be, I would say it be a bit of all of that.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Well, because like one, one of the biggest, the funniest misnomers is that the best sex you're ever going to have is when you're 25. And what the data tells me is like married couples who are in their 40s and 50s are having the best sex. And so, but that, that's not because they look the greatest. I was way more attractive when I was 20. Right. Like, it's not, it's, it's not the things that we think matter when we're younger. It is. I know what you're into. I know what makes your toenails curl. I know like, I know all about you. And there's a safety, there's a relational safety that is super deep after two decades with somebody.

[TJ]

Yeah, I, I would agree with all that. Yes.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

So I guess it like, let's take sex out of the equation. I don't know. No. We could leave it in. I, I, I guess, I guess I, I, I, to have the same level of trust and sexual compatibility and intimacy. I'm, you're going to need more time. Like you're gonna have to build that relational stability. You were married to somebody, now you're just hooking up with people. That's a different anchor point.

[TJ]

Yeah. When you say it like that. Yes.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Does that mean, does that make sense?

[TJ]

Yeah, yeah, no, that, that, that all makes sense.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

If you're married 20 years, not everybody, but you get to a point where you're not performing anymore. You're just, you can be with. If you're just hooking up with somebody, that's a show. Right. You're, you're doing your greatest hits so that hopefully they can do their greatest hit or you get them. See what I'm saying?

[TJ]

Yeah. We're playing nothing but the hits here.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

That's exhausting because you're not being you.

[TJ]

Yeah, right.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

What is. What does. I mean, do you still miss your. What, your ex?

[TJ]

Well, yeah. I mean, like you said earlier, it was, you know, somebody that I was with for 23 years. And.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Why'd y' all get divorced?

[TJ]

Well, she lost. She lost respect for me in. In the end. I mean, I had some business deals that went bad, and, you know, there. There were money issues that went on, and, you know, I don't want to throw the word night narcissist out there, but, I mean, she certainly falls into a lot of those personality traits. Gaslighting was. Was her biggest. Her biggest nastiness to her. So it was, you know, in. You know, and then. And then after we got divorced, I mean, she came out as a lesbian, too, so that. That might have played a factor in a little bit.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

You think?

[TJ]

I. I don't think. I don't think. Oh, it was. It was. It was only a small factor. I don't. I don't think it was a hu. But I knew she was. I knew she was gay when I was married to her, but it never seemed to affect anything otherwise. But, I mean, she was just a very difficult. It was a very. She's a very difficult person. So.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on. What are you saying, man? Like, you're like. I knew that she wasn't living a life that she felt would make her a hole, but it was all good, and she was combative and was blaming me for her lack of happiness. I knew she was gay, but it was all good. And then I had.

[TJ]

No, it wasn't.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

I had money issues and business issues that. Did you have integrity issues, too? Did you hide the losses?

[TJ]

No, I didn't do that.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

So she just didn't do that.

[TJ]

It was hard to do that. In 2008, we went down for millions.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Oh, there you go. Okay.

[TJ]

You can't hide that.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yeah.

[TJ]

So.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Well, some tried. Some went down trying.

[TJ]

I'm sure they did.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

So here you are, three years post divorce.

[TJ]

Yes.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Do you like the life you're leaving living right now?

[TJ]

No.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Do you respect tj? Do you respect you in this new world?

[TJ]

Do I respect myself? Yes, I do.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Okay.

[TJ]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Are you proud of who you've become post divorce?

[TJ]

Yes.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Excellent.

[TJ]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Excellent. Who are you sharing your life with?

[TJ]

In. In what respect?

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Do you have a group of guys that you hang out with that you Go shooting pool with that you go shooting with or drinking with or like, I don't know what you do out there in Phoenix, but just sitting around, being hot with. Right. Like, do you have a gang go.

[TJ]

Oh yeah, yeah, we, we go out to the lake, go wakeboarding and awesome surfing and, and all that stuff. Yeah, I know. I have, I have a group of guys that I hang out with.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

So every time you date, what happens? I'm nearly, I'm sorry, every time you date, what happens? Your ex wife just pops into your mind?

[TJ]

Yeah, sometimes part of me is, is that, well, I'm 52. To put some context to it, is that like I'm out in the dating market of, you know, 50 year old women and you know, they come with some, some wild issues too and some of it.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

So do you.

[TJ]

Well, I know, but it's all, it's all on how you deal with them too, or what you want to get involved with.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Right.

[TJ]

A lot of they're, they're all going. Yes. They're going through their divorce at the same time.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And so let me ask you this. What are you looking for in the last, in the back half of your life? You built a life for somebody and neither of y' all were honest with each other and you tried to make it work and it imploded. Now you're, now you're trying to figure out what you can do in the back half your life. What do you want that to look like?

[TJ]

Serenity.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Awesome.

[TJ]

Peace. Peace. Peace.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

I love that.

[TJ]

My, my ex wife made it very difficult for me to be with my own family. So I've spent quite a, quite a lot of time reconnecting with my own parents who are, you know, on their last days, amazing kind of things. So, so I'm enjoying that. And I've opened a new business which is looking very profitable. So I'm, I'm happy, I'm happy with that.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

So can we exhale for a second and grieve? You had a spirited, sexually adventurous, very chaotic two decades with somebody. There was good stuff. There was great stuff. It was really tough stuff and there was painful stuff. If you keep that door open and you parade every new person you meet in front of that door, just to compare will always collapse on you. You have to agree that that part of your life is over. And if you had great sex with your wife, no new person is going to your ex wife, no new person is going to come in and take that away or minimize that. You only have a few choices in your life to have a 20 year relationship with somebody.

[TJ]

Right.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

So it's not about. How do you compare? It was great. She was my wife. What's going to matter going forward is can you and I decide you're going to bring baggage to the table? I'm bringing bag baggage to the table. We are going to choose peace in our house and we're going to choose as much joy and novelty and fun and whatever. And whatever. And whatever moving forward. Is that, Is that, Does that make sense?

[TJ]

Yeah, no, that, that. I mean, I've heard, I've heard you use the same kind of advice in the past. I guess I just never applied it to myself.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Gotcha Greek.

[TJ]

You know, grieve it and move on and.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Because it feels like if I, If I. You were just talking to me, I would feel like you just found out six months ago that your wife actually is gay after two decades. She just hid it from you and hid it from you and she moved out. She's remarried to another woman and your head is still spinning. That's how fresh it feels when you're talking about it, even though it was three years ago.

[TJ]

Right.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

That makes that make sense.

[TJ]

Total sense.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Guys, can I just say this? I'm sorry. Because I also get the impression you really loved her.

[TJ]

Yeah, I did.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

That was your wife. Yeah. That's the thing you do.

[TJ]

And when things have kids together, it sort of puts another layer on there, right?

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yeah. It's their mom. So you're always going to be connected to her.

[TJ]

Right.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And trying to have somebody just waltz in and duplicate like the. Don't let the physical, whatever fun times y' all had, whatever deep connected sexual contact, don't let those moments. Let me say this. Going to the top of the Empire State Building and looking at that spire that goes really high into the clouds, it's amazing. But you can't forget that that only exists because of the however many 300 or whatever floors that are beneath it holding it up. The sex was so great and the connection was so great and the depth was so great because y' all were both all in. For 20 years, you made humans together. You were ride or die. And there was some big secrets, some big. Some big, big, big things in between you two. But, man, y' all went for it. And if she's the one who decided, I'm out, I don't respect you, then you would be a different man than me if you didn't look in the mirror and ask, am I worth respecting? And I, by the way, for whatever it's worth, I Think you can be a respectable person whose business goes away? I think you can be proud of yourself that you went all in and some new technology came and took your company away from you or a new competitor.

[TJ]

Or a financial collapse.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Or a financial collapse. Right?

[TJ]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

That's not a reason to bail on somebody. That's a reason to double down on somebody. And she left. That's painful, man. That hurts. And so I would say, as you're dating and as you decide to marry somebody new, let those opportunities be as fresh and new because we're starting from day one with those things and do not compare them to what was. And by the way, that's going to be a natural thing when that pops into your head. You have to make a choice. That you have to make a choice. I'm stopping for a second. No, I'm not going to go back to that one night or go back to that crazy weekend in wherever. I'm not going back there. My wife left me. We are divorced. She is gone. I'm here with her. And if you try to heal those wounds of, hey, she left with sex, with strangers. If you try to heal that. I thought we were ride or die and the economy tanked and then you were gone and you start to feel like I was just a meal ticket for you and the kid. Like when you have those moments, like the thing about casual sex is for a second it can make that stuff go away, but it is hollow and hollow and it piles up on you. So pause for a minute, brother. Pause for a minute. Grieve that thing fully. And I don't know anybody who can grieve by themselves. So get your gang and then date somebody new and be open. Everybody's going to have baggage. 21 year olds who get married have baggage. They got their family baggage. They're bringing their whole families in the new house with them and they got to figure out how to unwind those things. It's just part of moving forward with somebody. Honor what was you loved her and if you believe you did right by her for 20 plus years, then honor that. Exhale, drop your shoulders. And if you believe she just walked out on you, if you believe that she said it was all cool even though she was gay and it hurt, like, exhale that it hurts. It's painful. And then meet somebody else and say, hi, my name is tj. I got a lot of baggage, too. I'd love to get to know you. Thanks for the call, my brother. I really appreciate you hopping on the show. All right, coming up we talked to a woman who is struggling to regain her husband's trust. And it wasn't an affair. We'll be right back. All right, just a quick word about the best mattress in the world. Helix. Spring is here. And that means the darkness and the cold are finally gone and we can get back into the swing of things. Spring break, summer plans. I feel like I'm coming back alive. So join me. Let's reset. Most of us have blown through our resolutions, so let's reset today. Let's make today day one for a great year and the top of the list of the reset. Great sleep. Great sleep is the foundation for everything in our lives. And this is where my friends at Helix come in. I've slept on everything. Cheap mattresses, the floor, bad hotel mattresses, hunting camp sleep pads, overpriced mattresses. You name it, I've slept on it. 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It's lightweight, and it's even Cordless. Go to boncharge.com DeLoney and use coupon code DeLoney to save 15%. That's B O N C H A r g e bondcharge.com DeLoney and use coupon code DeLoney to save 15%. Let's go to Nicole in the Ozarks. What's up, Nicole?

[Nicole]

Hi.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

What's up?

[Nicole]

I'm doing great. Better than I actually have been in a very, very long time.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Incredible. Just by calling the show your life got better.

[Nicole]

I actually agree.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

I. I probably would disagree with you. Okay, so go ahead. What's up?

[Nicole]

Well, my original question is, what should I expect with rebuilding my marriage? And if you want me to, I'll jump into some backstory, but.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yeah, yeah, let it rip.

[Nicole]

Okay. Well, me and my husband have been married for 10 years, and in the last five years, I've been struggling with depression. Unknowingly, I could only focus on keeping my. Me and my three boys alive. And none of the house chores were getting done at all. And my husband loves a clean house. He and I have had several conversations about it, and all ending with me saying, I'll do better. I'll do better. I'll do better. And every time, better would last for a week at the most and fall off. His trust is very low right now, and I don't blame him for that. And he told me last month that he had actually been considering leaving me several times but didn't see the logical way of doing it. I've been in counseling, and God has been helping me for the last three months, healing and growing and changing for the better. And in listening to your show, I was able to ask him to rebuild a new marriage with me, and he was on board. We are a month into rebuilding, and I'm three months into counseling and change. I'm wondering what to expect with him needing to rebuild trust with me and how do I practice slowing my role when I just want to get to the good part.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Hmm. Man, there's so much in your question. You said today. You said that today. The last few days have been the best in a long time. What's made them the best?

[Nicole]

Well, just for a really long Time I have with struggling with depression unknowingly, it feels like, it feels like I have kind of like the best analogy I can figure out is like a three part Christmas tree. And when you don't have one plugged in, the rest of the lights don't work. And that's just kind of what it's been feeling like, where mind, body and spirit are not plugged in together. But in the last three months it's felt like mind, body and spirit finally plugged in. And I can actually put mind, body and spirit together. I can get house chores done. Literally. I. My house is cleaner than it's ever been in 10 years of being married. And it feels so good. It feels like a giant weight off my shoulder. And I can see it in my husband, I could see it in my kids that we're all feeling better because of it. So it's just kind of like this moment. But then it's like after he told me last month that he had been considering leaving, I was like, oh, whoa, this is a lot serious. This is a lot more serious than I thought it was.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

So is it that you have a cleaner house or is it for the first time in five years you feel like you can finally trust you again?

[Nicole]

You're gonna make me emotional, John.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Because, because you're think depression. Like I talk about anxiety, ocd, all these other things. Depression's a different animal in my book. And I think depression and anxiety are on the same trend line. But it's a body that says it's your body trying to take care of you by turning the lights out and get under the covers. Yeah, it's really powerful. And in any major depressive, and I don't, I'm not, obviously not going to diagnose you over the phone, but in any major depression, like when you're dealing with somebody who is really struggling with depression, one of the chief goals is tiny wins.

[Nicole]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Just get up today and take a shower, then get back in bed. That's it.

[Nicole]

That's how it was a lot.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Just get up today, take a shower, put on makeup, go back to bed.

[Nicole]

Yeah. And I say depression because I was never really clinically diagnosed, but I could see the patterns. And my dad actually struggled with depression, but he didn't ever tell me or my brother that it was depression. So it was just really angry around the house. And you just kind of thought he was just a really mad person.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

So you and I only have, we've been talking for three minutes. Can I connect some dots? And you just Say, no. No, you're wrong.

[Nicole]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Okay. Is there a chance that when. Whenever a parent is really struggling with depression, it's very challenging for a kid? Because I. I often use the same analogy. I'm talking about parents who are struggling with alcohol. For a kid, it's like trying to hug a ghost. They're there. They're right there physically.

[Heather]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

But they're not there. And for a child, children do so much to try to connect. Hey, let's go play the ball. Kick the ball. Hey, will you do this? Can we watch videos in your lap? Can I do anything with you? Because a child naturally wired into them evolutionarily, they have to stay connected to a parent. When a parent is unplugged right next to them, whether it's because of substance or because of depression or whatever, a kid will kind of start cycling. They'll start spinning, trying to find ways to connect. And you did that your whole childhood? Fair.

[Nicole]

Definitely.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Okay.

[Nicole]

Yeah. 100. And my mom really wasn't a great person either. She would rather go to work than be home.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Work was her drug, right?

[Nicole]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Work was her drug. So.

[Nicole]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Is there a possibility. Tell me. I'm happy to be wrong here. That you fell in love with somebody and you married them, and then yet again, you found yourself having to perform up to a certain set of tasks for them to be okay with you? For instance, the house has to look a certain way, or I'm out of here.

[Nicole]

Yeah, kind of. I mean, I definitely believe that my husband was given to me by God because of other circumstances that we don't have time to go into, but.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

But did you accidentally marry your unfinished business?

[Nicole]

I. Yeah, I can see that.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Okay.

[Nicole]

And he told me even last night that he. He thought that marriage was the next thing to check off in his box. Yeah, we kind of both did it.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

So in a weird way. And this. And hear me say this. This isn't this. It's not a good thing, but it's not a bad thing. Okay. It just isn't. Is okay.

[Nicole]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And this happens all the time. It happened in my marriage. Okay.

[Nicole]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Y' all both married each other in some sort of way using the other person to try to fill something in their life.

[Nicole]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

You were there. You were well enough. And he had a list he needed to check off. You needed safety. You needed somebody to say it's not. That you're not somehow malfunctioning. And y' all married. Y' all. Y' all connected, and you were each other's oxygen until the tank Ran out.

[Nicole]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And then you want to be more than just a checkbox on a. On a list.

[Nicole]

Yeah, definitely.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And he wanted you to be a maid Sl. Mom, right?

[Nicole]

Yeah, I definitely.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And my guess is at certain points again, there's a thousand different things. So I don't want to like minimize it, but I wouldn't be surprised if your body said, I know this story. I'm out. I know how this goes. I quit. And here's why it's important for you to internalize this. You being squished under depression does not mean you are somehow malfunctioning in your character. You're not a bad person.

[Nicole]

Yeah. Because it was like I could only. I would define other people's houses and I could like even help my in laws clean their house, help my sister in law clean her house.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Nicole, none of this is about cleaning. None.

[Nicole]

Okay.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

What this is, that is a distant. That is a distant byproduct. What it has to do with is for whatever reason. And this. This is all going to tie back to your question. What should you expect rebuilding your marriage. Okay. Yeah. It all your body identified your world, your home, your partner, something. All of it. A piece of it as. I can't do this. I'm out.

[Nicole]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And it's. If you think about yourself underneath a. I don't know if this analogy will hold. I'm just making it up off the top of my head. But if you struggle with anxiety and you're on and you're doing bench press, imagine the. The bar is so light that you can lift it a hundred times. Like a broom handle. Right. You're just lifting it and you're trying to lift it as much as you possibly can so you can get as strong as you can. Because one day someone's gonna try to kill you.

[Nicole]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

With depression, somebody loads it up with five times the weight you can lift. And you push and you push against it and you can't budget an inch and you just stop.

[Nicole]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And it lays on your chest and you can't move it. And the only way to get that bar up is to get some of that weight off the bar.

[Nicole]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Is that making sense?

[Nicole]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Here's what I need you to hear me say before I go any further. There's not something wrong with you. Your body was simply trying to keep you alive. You're not a bad wife. Okay.

[Nicole]

Know how long I've been telling myself that?

[Dr. John DeLoney]

I know. You told that self when you were a little girl that dad wouldn't talk to you because something's wrong with you, right?

[Nicole]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yeah. So you and your husband created a world, the one that y' all both knew. And you were somebody that was going to accomplish all of his tasks and he was somebody that was going to finally heal you. And y' all both were like, oh, this isn't how this works. That's a great place to find yourself. If y' all can come to the table and say, okay, cool, we created this world. Now we can create any world we want.

[Nicole]

Okay.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Okay.

[Nicole]

And I think we're finally there.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

That's amazing. But you cannot predicate what comes next with look how clean the house is. Because let me. I'm promising you, Nicole, I'm promising you, if that's what it takes to bring you all back together, that finish line will move.

[Nicole]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

The house will never be clean.

[Nicole]

It feels like it already has.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

That's right. It will move to. Well, if you lost £20 and then it will move. And then it will move to. Well, if you just did this in the bedroom. And then it will move to. Well, if you just hit another button. Right. Well, it will always move because you were never the problem. It was this context y' all created this environment, this world where he's trying to find somebody that will do all of the things that he thinks is what it's going to take to make him feel whole. And you cannot feel that for him. He can only be whole from the inside out. And he can't rescue that nine year old girl inside your chest. That's your job.

[Nicole]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Fair. Does it make sense what I'm saying?

[Nicole]

Yes, definitely. 100%. So to kind of told him. He's. We've kind of had those discussions and those realizations.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Awesome. So rebuilding a marriage. Imagine rebuilding a house.

[Nicole]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

You're going to have disagreements on where to put the new bathroom. One of y' all is going to lay a tile floor and it's going to look funny. You have to pull the whole floor out. One of you is going to roof the house and the roof's going to be crooked. You have to pull all the shingles off, all that expense and redo it or maybe hire somebody to come into it. Rebuilding your marriage. Expect it to be uncomfortable.

[Nicole]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Expect it to be like glimpses like you're experiencing right now of, oh, gosh, when this thing is singing. It works. It feels right. I feel now we're. Both of us are in the boat and both of our feet is in the boat. He's not just watching you row while he sits on the shore in a lawn chair with a beer. And you're not him in the boat. You're just trying to paddle as fast as you can to be the wife he wants you to be. Right. It's both of you saying, hey, both of us have to be in here, and both of us are going to row. And both of you have never done that before.

[Nicole]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

So it's awkward, it's weird, it's frustrating, it's annoying. And here's the important part about the marriage, about building a new marriage. You always have to go back to that blueprint, that picture y' all created together about where this thing is headed, because that's what matters.

[Nicole]

Yeah. And we. Did. We even. I. Because I watched your show, I was like, okay, I'm ready to rebuild this thing. So we're gonna have a talk, and we're gonna have. We're gonna sit down and we're gonna talk about what we want, and then we're going to come back to it in three months and see 30 days changed or not.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Right now. Right now. Do it weekly, okay? Do it weekly. Talk about your money, talk about your sex life, and commit to each other to not use the word you commit. To use the word I.

[Nicole]

Okay.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

He's not allowed to say. You need to do. Make sure Our. Bet he can't do that.

[Nicole]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

He needs to have the courage to say, when I walk in the door and this house is all cleaned up and I've been working really hard all day, and you are, like, running the house and I'm running this business, I feel so loved.

[Nicole]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Or I am struggling with being attracted to you right now.

[Nicole]

That. That's exactly.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

But that's different than, hey, you need to lose £30. See the difference?

[Nicole]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And when he says I'm struggling. When he says I'm struggling with being attracted to you, exhaling and choosing curiosity over judgment. How dare you, you son of. That's judgment. Curiosity is. That's hard to hear. Tell me. Tell me more. Right.

[Nicole]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And you, if you're being honest, are tired of him hassling you about sex when you can't even brush your teeth.

[Nicole]

Oh, it's not him hassling me. It's me hassling him.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Okay. Fair enough.

[Nicole]

Fair enough.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Will you do me a favor?

[Nicole]

Sure.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

I want you to go. You've heard me say, if you listen to the show, I want you to go buy yourself a small little journal for nine bucks at Walmart or Walgreens and commit. This is for this, your soul, for your marriage, for your Husband and for your kids. Okay, this is a big. The stakes are high on this. I want you to write down, for a month or two, every single story that pops into your mind. Write it down. And then ask your husband if he would honor you by sitting down and helping you challenge those together.

[Nicole]

Okay?

[Dr. John DeLoney]

If I don't do open clean the dishwasher, my wife. My husband's going to leave me. Write that down. You suck at being a mom. Write that down. Good moms don't need time away from their kids. Write that down.

[Nicole]

Okay.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Husbands always, always, always want to have sex with their wives. And. And if they don't, that means he's having an affair. Or that means I'm unattractive. Write that down.

[Nicole]

Okay.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

We are always, always going to be changing diapers, bathing kids, dealing with spit up, getting food off the floor, dealing with screaming and crying. And bedtimes are always going to be. It's not true. You're in a phase. It's winter and you're really cold. But I promise, spring is coming.

[Nicole]

And I hate being cold.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

I know, right? Everybody does.

[Nicole]

It's the worst.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

So here's your expect curiosity over judgment.

[Nicole]

Okay.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

How can I love you? Not this year. For our whole marriage. How can I love you today?

[Nicole]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

We're looking for little wins, tiny wins. I believe I'm worth an hour in the gym, an hour of walking around the block. How can we make that happen? Enough space where I get that hour. Okay, you want me to show up in the bedroom for you, and you want me to show up here as your wife. I need to have adult friends that I can exhale with, so that way we don't use each other as garbage dumps. And I tell you all the bad stuff happened with the kids. You told me all the bad stuff that happened at work. And then we just go and we watched an episode of Dexter and we fall asleep.

[Nicole]

That's typically what we do.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

I know it is, because you're. I mean, because it's. That's the American marriage right now.

[Nicole]

Yeah. Yeah. I've been wanting something different for a while, too.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

So amazing. I think it's cool. Like, I. And I would be lying if I say there's some psychological benefits to getting rid of clutter. My friend, Don Madsen, the minimal mom, she's amazing. My buddy's Josh and TK over at the Minimalist. Like, the stuff they teach and preach is right. They're right.

[Nicole]

Yeah, I've done a lot of that.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

A non cluttered house is good for your soul. And, yeah, this isn't about you having a clean house.

[Nicole]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

This is about you desperately seeking some signal that you're worth being loved and married to.

[Nicole]

Yeah, 100%. I haven't felt like that in a while.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

That's right. That's what he needs to hear. If you don't want to rebuild your marriage because he has to come to the table with, how can I love you today? I just need you to hold me. How can I love you today? I need you to wash all the bottles. I know you're an attorney and you work 17 hours today. I need you to wash the bottles. Got it. How can I love you today? Can we just have hotel room sex while the kids are asleep just in the bathroom of the hotel? Can we shut the door and just get after for five minute, please? Got it. Expect there to be starts and stops and fits and backwards and forwards and all that kind of stuff. One more thing.

[Nicole]

Okay.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

This is just nagging me in the back of my mind and the back of my chest, and so I just want to put it on the table. Okay?

[Heather]

Okay.

[Nicole]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

If y' all haven't already, I want y' all to have a. After the kids are in bed, tell them I'm going to talk about something really big this evening.

[Nicole]

Okay.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And I want you to hold both of his hands, and I want you to say before we go, the last three months have been such a transformation in our lives. The last month has been amazing. I need to make sure that all of the secrets are on the table.

[Nicole]

I kind of did that last night because I had always had this nagging thought in the back of my head, and I'm just like, I just need to put this to bed. So kind of did a little bit, but not all of it.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Have you gone through text messages and cell phones and social media accounts?

[Nicole]

Oh, it's nothing like that. He's 100% loyal to me. It's more like an old sling that I was like, I don't know if I fully got the true story for that.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Okay. Whatever you need. Make sure the secrets are all out. Because if you go forward and you still have shadows, it just makes it hard to see. Right? It just makes it hard to see, but amazing. Keep going, Keep going. You two can call me anytime. I'll have you both on the show if y' all want to be on. I'll walk with you as far as y' all want to have me walk next to you. I'm so proud y' all are rebuilding this thing. Keep that Picture in mind. And keep this phrase going all the time. We are on the same team. And both of you are going to have to say, I'm sorry. Both of you are going to have to say, I forgive you. Both of you are going to have to say, well, we got to pull out that back bathroom because the tiles on sideways. We got to rebuild the bath. Here we go. And we're going to keep going and going. And by the way, as soon as you get this whole house built, you're gonna have three teenagers. You have to build a new house. And that becomes part of the excitement and fun and novelty and playfulness and work of being married for a long, long time. Amazing, Nicole, I'm proud of you. Keep seeing that counselor. Keep seeing that counselor. Next up, a woman is forced to reckon with her past and the guilt it brings into the future. Stay with us. All right, it's time for a quick word about Delete Me. Does anyone else feel like our digital footprints are starting to feel like digital trails leading right back to us? Now scammers are using phishing attacks. That's phishing with a ph, where they try to trick you into giving them something by pretending to know you and to care about you. You ever got an email or a text or a phone call and the person or the AI bot on the other end sounds like someone who's actually looking out for you? With all the new technological advancements, no one is really safe anymore. So what are we supposed to do? Start controlling what you can control. The first thing is to learn about how to be careful online and offline with your digital footprint. And the second thing you need to do is sign up with Delete me. I use and recommend Delete me because they work in the background to reduce my online presence. That way I don't have to worry about creepy data brokers having my data and selling it to a bajillion other people. Deleteme has reviewed over tens of thousands of sites for me, and they've removed my data from hundreds of them, which has saved me countless hours and a ton of stress. Stop the phishing attacks and the harassment and the other online threats before they start and take control of your digital privacy. With Delete me, go to joindeleteme.com Deloney today for 20% off their annual plan. That comes out to less than nine bucks a month. That's Join J O I njoin delete me.com DeLoney all right. Omaha, Nebraska. What's up, Heather?

[Heather]

Hello.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

How we doing?

[Heather]

I'm doing okay.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

You don't sound like it.

[Heather]

I. I'm not a very big phone talker, so this is hard.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Okay, well, thanks for. Thanks for reaching out. It's awesome.

[Heather]

Yeah. So my worry is when I. Back in 2008, 2009, I had an affair with a married man. And then recently, just last month, he randomly sent me a message asking how I was doing. And it really upset me because I had never told my husband about this person and I hadn't, I hadn't met my husband when I was having this fair, so I didn't cheat. And I told my husband about it because I've been carrying the guilt for the last 13 years we've been together and I just. I hate myself for it.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

How old are you now?

[Heather]

37.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

So how old were you? 20. What?

[Heather]

20. 21. And dumb, I was gonna say.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Did you do anything else dumb when you were 20 or 21?

[Heather]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Like every 21 year old on planet Earth.

[Heather]

Yep. I made bad decisions, that's for sure.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Well, you're gonna have to get in a long line of 20 and 21 year olds who made bad decisions. Why is this still haunting you at 37 years old?

[Heather]

I've just always carried around some guilt about it, like it's a horrible thing to do. I was single at the time, but it just, I didn't want to tell my husband. Every time we watch like your show and somebody talks about cheating, he's just like, people who cheat are just terrible. And I'm just sitting here thinking, like, you're going to think I'm a terrible person because of this terrible thing I did. And it's finally, finally came out. And.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

But do you see how you're bouncing tenses and trying to compress time?

[Heather]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

People who are cheaters are terrible people. One time, getting up on two decades ago or a decade and a half ago, I cheated. In fact, I didn't cheat, but I participated in somebody cheating. You see how you're toggling time back and forth to bring your stuff that happened a long time ago into the present.

[Heather]

I just don't want my husband to think. To hate me, to think I'm a terrible person or that I would do that to him.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

What did he say when you talked to him?

[Heather]

He was kind of stunned. He. Because at first I asked him, what would. Why would a man email somebody who he hasn't seen in 17 years? And he's like, probably nothing good, right?

[Dr. John DeLoney]

He's exactly right.

[Heather]

And I. Then that's just when I was like, okay, I have to tell you something. And. And he just. He's kind of a stoic person. So I really didn't get much emotion out of him, either mad or sad or anything like that. He was just kind of like, surprised I kept something that from him that long.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

That's what I think you're frustrated with.

[Heather]

I don't know. I. I've always had been carrying around this guilt for. For a long time.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

What is that?

[Heather]

Even before.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Okay, let me ask you this. What is it getting you?

[Heather]

Nothing.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Now it's giving you something. I don't know what it is, but it's giving you something. Is it a way to remember this affair? Was it pretty wonderful?

[Heather]

No, it was not.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Okay. Is it a way to protect you from ever, like. Like a. I'm thinking of like a little kid who dresses up in like, old. Like old armor, right? Like an almost night costumes, thinking that's going to protect them from something. Is it your body trying to protect you from ever doing this again? So it just carries it around and dangles it in front of your face like one of those carrots in front of a donkey on the cartoons just to remind you it's getting you something.

[Heather]

I think it's more like, okay, I know that somebody can be a liar and cheat on their. Their wife. And I get just. I'm. I guess I'm afraid of that happening to me because I know that. That people falter.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Are you worried that your husband has cheated on you?

[Heather]

No.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Okay. Again, I. Yes. I think you played a role in participating in something that was very unhealthy and not good. Fair.

[Heather]

Correct.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

I'm wondering if the. The. The intensity of the guilt you feel is that if you've had this big secret for all these years that you believed in your heart and mind. I think you're right. My husband doesn't really know what I'm capable of.

[Heather]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And every year he did something great. Every time something happened, every time he popped off about, man, if somebody ever cheated on. And that weight got heavier and heavier and heavier.

[Heather]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Because if I'm. If my wife comes up and says, hey, I did this thing, it was pretty rough before we met, My immediate frustration would be, you've kept this from. You've kept secrets like this from me for this long. That'd be my first thought. Not the thing that happened, the disorienting thing. We'd get to that eventually, but the disorienting thing would be I thought we knew everything about each other. And maybe. I'm out to lunch here But I'm wondering if you sat down and said, hey, I told you this thing. I kind of wanted to get it off my chest and I threw it at you. But I realized it's fair for you to be sitting around wondering what else I haven't told you for the last 15 years. Yeah.

[Heather]

Like, it all happened in the morning. And he said, okay, we'll talk about it after work, and then got the kids to bed. And I was like, can we talk about it now? And he's like, sure. He didn't really want to. So we did talk about it again, but he said that he doesn't care. And it doesn't if he's not gonna think about it and let it bother him.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Do you believe him?

[Heather]

I don't know. He's kind of hard to read emotion wise.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Okay.

[Heather]

But he's.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Here's the exercise I want you to. You want you to try. Okay. Two things. Number one, I want you to give it a day or two. And then I want you to, when the kids go to bed, say, hey, let's go out to the kitchen table. Not in our bedrooms, go to the kitchen table. What? I want to go. Just please do this for me. Okay. And I want you to say, I kept something big from you that I was ashamed of for all of our marriage. And it breaks my heart that I didn't tell you the truth about who I was or not even who I was, but a thing I did that I'm really ashamed of for all these years. And I also understand that you're going to have questions about. What else does she not tell me? So I would like to offer you opportunity to let it rip. Ask me any question you want to ask. I'm going to answer it right here. Because I want to build trust with you that, you know, I'm not walking around with these like you're going to be waiting for another shoe to drop. And if he says, I don't have any other questions, I'll believe you. Okay. If I was a husband, I wouldn't do that. I would have a whole bunch of questions. Right? But maybe he is. Maybe he's just a stoic guy that trusts you and realizes that was probably hard and maybe moved on. He's probably a more chill dude than me. The second thing is, this is old school Deloney advice. I want you to go to Lowe's or Home Depot and buy a cinder block. And it's important that you buy it. Don't just get one from the yard, go buy one. And I Want you to duct tape on it. When I was 21, I got with a married man. And I want you just to carry it around. You can carry around in your hands. You can put it in a backpack and carry it around your house for a while. You can, but I want you just to hold it until it gets so heavy you just can't carry it anymore. And then I want you to go out in the backyard and throw it on the ground, tear off the tape, wad that tape up and put it in the trash and tell yourself, I'm not carrying this anymore. I forgive 21 year old me, period. I forgive you. And when that guilt comes up, I want you to exhale, go. Nope. I forgave her because Heather, now in the present, would never cheat. I forgive her. She did something dumb. Forget about the work dynamics and the age difference and the hierarchies or what, whatever happened, I forgive that 20 year old, 21 year old knucklehead. I forgive her. And I'm not giving that guilt a vote at my kitchen table anymore. I've got kids, I got a husband that I love. I'm moving on with my life. But I want you to have some moment that you can, you can exhale and say, I set that down. And then what you're going to practice over the next few months, maybe a couple years, is when that thought pops in your head. You remember one of the nights together you spent with that dude or he pops up on your LinkedIn, you hit delete and block. Don't reply. I forgive her. Then go on about your day. And that sounds a glib, but this is just you practicing living in the present and stop letting the thing that happened 15 years ago haunt every minute of your life. And again, my gut tells me that the, the, the intensity of the guilt is more around. I'm keeping this big secret from my husband more so than I did something really stupid when I was 20 or 21. Thanks for the call, sister. Hey, we'll be right back. All right, so we are long past Easter now. And just like there's no finish line for your physical health or your mental and emotional well being, there's no finish line for being still and intentional about gratitude, for growing in your faith and for building a relationship with God. And this is good news. Intentionality about spiritual matters is a practice and any time can be a new starting point. So if you committed to consistent practice of prayer and gratitude or reflection during Lent, I want to encourage you to keep going. The small daily habits add up to A transformed life. For my daily practice, I personally use Hallow, the number one prayer app in the world. It's a great tool to help me stay connected, to help me slow down, and to help me be grateful. Whether it's guided meditation, music, or scripture readings, Hallow helps me stay mindful even when life has gone berserker. So set reminders, carve out time, and keep leaving space for intentional spirituality with hallowed. Plus, when you sign [e-mail] DeLoney, you'll get three months for free. So even if you missed out on lint, it's still a great time to start again. Go to Hallow H A L l o w hallow.com DeLoney for three months for free. All right, Kelly, something cool happened. What's up?

[Kelly]

All right, this is from John in Thunder Bay. I know that sounds amazing.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

That sounds like one of your high school boyfriend's name. Hello, like, pulls up at a Camaro on Thunder Bay and you're like, oh.

[Kelly]

No. But I'm just gonna go ahead and read this now.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Your eagle tattoo on your arm goes Bon Jovi. Just start spontaneously starts playing. Yeah. Yep.

[Kelly]

All right. Hey, John, I started listening to your show before the holidays. I decided it would be fun to buy questions for humans, Christmas couples, and parents and kids. Our two kids, ages 9 and 5, often groan when we do a few questions over dinner today, my daughter was at a party and my wife is out of town, so my little guy and I ordered pizza, and when we sat down to eat, he held up the deck and said, dad, can we do this? I'd like to say thanks to you and to your show for helping me become a little bit more intentional about my interactions with my wife and kids and making me a more open and better communicator. Keep up the good work, dude.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Good job, Thunder Bay. Thank you so much for reaching out, man. Even though now I gotta have to deal with, like, a month's worth of Kelly's high school boyfriend stories, I. Dude, that's awesome. I'm proud of you for stepping up and being that kind of dad that just wants to be a little bit more intentional. And, man, anytime your. Your kids, your little kids lean up and say, hey, dad, mom, do you want to try this? That's amazing. That is just amazing. Watching little kids connect with their parents. I love it. I love it, love it. Congratulations, man. Everybody else listening. Be a little bit more intentional. That's all it takes. Love you guys. Bye.