My Boyfriend’s Fame Is Derailing Our Relationship

Summary

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Episode Overview

Episode Title:
“My Boyfriend’s Fame Is Derailing Our Relationship”
Host: Dr. John Delony
Date: September 12, 2025
Podcast: The Dr. John Delony Show (Ramsey Network)

Theme:
Caller-driven advice on navigating uncertain relationship seasons, identity, personal growth, boundaries, and family struggles, with deep dives into mental health, fame, and parenting challenges.

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Key Discussion Points

1. Navigating Uncertainty in a Relationship Upended by Ambition and Fame

Caller: Ella ([00:05] - [12:41])

• Situation Summary:
  Ella, 21 from Ontario, had a long-term, stable relationship with her boyfriend. He recently dropped out of university to pursue a rapidly accelerating music career—forcing them into a long-distance, financially unstable situation, delaying engagement/family plans.

• Emotional Core:

  • Ella struggles with her need for predictability (rooted in her chaotic childhood) clashing with the new, unpredictable trajectory of her relationship.
  • Her sense of safety came from planning; her plans now feel threatened.

• Dr. John’s Key Advice:

  • Acknowledge Loss of the Plan ([03:54]):

    “My life as I have it mapped out… the ticket to that ride is it will not look how I mapped it out.”

  • 90-Day Planning Principle ([05:59]):

    “Instead of saying ‘well, it’s going to be like this for 50 years,’… Every three months put everything on the table and say, do we still love each other? Are we still committed to this and what is real in this upcoming season?”

  • Maintain Individual Identity and Goals ([07:26]):
    Focus on her own goals (finishing university, launching her career) alongside her commitment to the relationship. Neither should give up their ambitions completely for the other.
  • Regular Honest Check-ins & Calendar Dates ([08:50]):
    Schedule periodic conversations not just about logistics but about their hopes, emotional needs, and even when they’ll revisit the big topics (like marriage and family), to avoid feeling stuck.
  • Accept Fluidity and Renegotiation ([09:47]):

    “Even Metallica… can’t plan for a steady climb or descent. That’s why coming back together is so important.”

  • Balance Connection Rituals with Flexibility ([07:59]):
    • Texting throughout the day vs. nightly calls; customize routines but adapt as needed.

• Memorable Quote:

  Dr. John: “If that map has been what has kept you sane from an unruly childhood, it can feel like your whole world is coming down.” ([04:55])

2. Overcoming Relationship Performance Anxiety and Insecurity

Caller: Mitchell ([12:41] - [19:41])

• Situation Summary:
  Mitchell, 26, dating a woman 10 years his senior with both having children. He notices he feels pressure to “personalize” every date since his girlfriend has already had similar experiences (e.g., football games) with others—though he insists he isn’t jealous, just feeling the need to make each moment more memorable.

• Insights from Dr. John:

  • You are What Makes the Relationship Unique ([15:44]):

    “She chose you. You are what’s different at the soccer game. Your laughter, your joy… But for you, you’re looking for… fireworks. If you pursue that, eventually that runs out of gas…”

  • Let Go of the Performance Trap ([16:03]):
    • The sense that love is earned through “doing”—making romance a stage act, rather than an experience.
    • Women’s Complaint: Can’t connect, “he’s always on stage, never in the audience next to me.”
    • Underlying question: “Am I enough?”
  • Tiny Wins & Personal Connection ([16:22]):
    • Focus on getting to know your partner, building intimacy through small, meaningful gestures (e.g., holding her hand) rather than grand performances.
  • Normalize the Feeling:
    • Dr. John reflects personally, emphasizing many men struggle silently with this (“I’m still wrestling with that question”).
  • Model Authenticity for Children ([17:56]):
    • Show unconditional love and self-worth, both in the romantic relationship and as a parent.

• Memorable Quote:

  Dr. John: “I spent so many years thinking my wife was into abs, how much money I made, job titles. Really, the whole time she was into me, and I was so scared of being seen as me.” ([19:20])

3. Parenting Through a Child’s Addiction, and the Power of Tiny Wins

Caller: Sarah ([23:57] - [40:05])

• Situation Summary:
  Sarah, mother of a 17-year-old with addiction (primarily marijuana, with other experimentation), ADHD, anxiety, and depression. Years of therapy, medication, sober stretches, relapses, inpatient and outpatient programs. She struggles with guilt, anger, and the overwhelming sense of loss as she grieves the future she imagined for her son.

• Dr. John’s Framework:

  • Addiction as a Solution, Not Just a Problem ([25:40]):
    • Recognizes that substances “work” for the user at some painful level.
  • Cycles of Relapse and Protective Parenting:
    • The “failure factory” reality both inside the child and the home—the sense that safety measures reinforce a belief in inevitable failure.
  • Insight for Parents—Praise Effort, Not Results ([31:45]):

    “The phrase ‘I see you’ followed by ‘worked really hard, tried so hard, really gritted it out’… always praise effort so that his identity doesn’t get wrapped up in the next action.”

  • Offer Opportunities for Relational Wins ([32:34]):
    • Give the teenager jobs they can succeed at that are relational (watch a TV episode, hold hands, help around the house), reinforcing value and purpose, independent from abstaining from substance misuse.
  • Relieve Parental Pressure & Grieve the Lost Picture ([35:17]):
    • Permission to “set the paintbrush down” and accept the situation as it is, releasing both parent and child from unattainable expectations.
  • Setting Boundaries Around Negative Behavior ([37:23]):
    • Time-limited space for the teen to vent, then a hard stop.
  • Power of Showing Up ([39:19]):
    • Go to your child with requests for help and connection, not just as a gatekeeper or “fixer.”

• Memorable Quotes:

  Dr. John: “He lives in a failure factory… because you love him and want to keep him safe, you take away the sharp edges of the world… but that also tells his exterior he lives in a failure factory out there too.” ([29:38])
  Dr. John: “I want him to feel how good it is when he’s in the business of serving somebody else.” ([32:38])
  Dr. John: “If you wait for him to come for your help, it will come intermittently. If you go to him and say ‘I need you,’ what he’s going to get … is a purpose, a sense of value that he doesn’t have.” ([39:18])

4. Am I the Problem?—The “Take My Picture” Parental Dilemma

Listener Question via Kelly 2.0 ([42:26] - [46:23])

• Summary:
  A wife/mom writes in, frustrated her husband never thinks to take pics of her and the kids unless explicitly asked.

• Generational Divide / Present Parenting vs. Documentation:

  • Dr. John identifies with the husband: when off work, wants to be fully present, not a “cameraman.”
  • Solution: More specificity from the spouse ("I'm about to get on this ride, please take pictures from over here"), not broad criticism.
  • Other guest (Andrew): Family opted for an actual camera, which separates intentional memory-making from mindless phone use.

• Memorable Quote:

  Dr. John: “When I get those sacred, holy moments… it is such a laser beam. And every single place I turn, I’m being told, ‘put your phone away and be present.’… And then it’s like, ‘oh, but also do this’… capture it. If you see a moment coming up, let me know.” ([43:06])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (by Timestamp)

• On Letting Go of the Plan:
  • “My life as I have it mapped out… the ticket to that ride is it will not look how I mapped it out.” (Dr. John, [03:54])
• On Fame, Ambition, and Relationships:
  • “Every three months, put everything on the table…” (Dr. John, [05:59])
• On Individual Identity in Relationship:
  • “There’s a fine balance between intentional connection and turning each other into a chore.” (Dr. John, [07:26])
• On Relationship Anxiety:
  • “She chose you. You are what’s different at the soccer game. Your laughter, your joy... But for you, you’re looking for… fireworks.” (Dr. John, [15:44])
• On Parenting and Tiny Wins:
  • “Always praise effort so that his identity doesn't get wrapped up in the next action.” (Dr. John, [31:45])
  • “I want him to feel how good it is when he’s in the business of serving somebody else.” (Dr. John, [32:38])
• On Setting Boundaries for Grieving Parents:
  • “Permission to set the paintbrush down for a bit… That picture puts a ton of pressure on you and on him.” (Dr. John, [35:29])
• On the Parental Photo Dilemma:
  • “If you see a moment coming up, let me know… I want to be here fully, not to capture it.” (Dr. John, [43:06])

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Helpful Timestamps

• Ella’s Call (Relationship derailed by boyfriend’s music career/fame): [00:05] – [12:41]
• Mitchell’s Call (Dating someone older, performance pressure): [12:41] – [19:41]
• Sarah’s Call (Parenting through addiction, anger, fear): [23:57] – [40:05]
• Listener Question: Marriage, photos, and being present: [42:26] – [46:23]

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Overall Tone & Approach

• Insightful, deeply empathetic, down-to-earth, and non-judgmental.
• Dr. John shares his own struggles, normalizing caller experiences; offers both practical checklists and philosophical reframing.
• Solutions are concrete, small, and action-oriented—emphasizing communication, routine, and acceptance of impermanence.

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Summary Takeaways

• There is no “perfect plan”—be ready to update and communicate honestly, especially during big transitions.
• You, and your authentic presence, are what’s unique in any relationship. Stop “performing” for love.
• Praise effort and create opportunities for “relational wins;” tiny, positive, present moments matter more than big gestures.
• Find the balance between being fully present and intentionally documenting life—communicate your needs specifically and practice grace for your partner’s approach.

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Anyone facing similar challenges—be it uncertainty in a relationship due to changing plans, anxiety about romantic performance, or loving a child through addiction—will find actionable wisdom, empathy, and a reminder that there are no perfect answers, just the next right moves.

Transcript

[Ella]

I'm wondering how to navigate through an unsure season with my boyfriend as he's recently made the decision to put everything into his music career.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

This happens whether you're 22. This happens when you've been married to, like, some regular old middle manager who suddenly gets to be the vice president. And so the question I always want to ask is, what's going on? This is John with the Dr. John DeLoney show coming to you from Nashville, Tennessee, amidst the world on fire. Here's my promise. I'll sit with you in the smoke and the ash of what's going on in your home, in your heart and mind, in your marriages and your relationships, with your kids, in your neighborhoods, wherever, and we will figure out what's the next right move. And by the way, I'm in this, too. I'm a husband trying to figure out how to do that right. I'm a dad, two young kids. I'm trying to run a business. I'm trying to be a good team member. Like, I'm. I'm in the middle of all that too. So it's not like I'm coming at people from above with all of this, like, wisdom from the stars. This is me pulling up a seat next to you at the table saying, yeah, me too, man. Let's figure this out. So if you want to be on the show, if you want to pull up a seat and have a conversation, go to john deloney.com/that's-l o n y.com ask. All right, let's go out to Ontario, Canada and talk to Ella. Ella. Ella. What's up, Ella? Hi.

[Ella]

How are you, Dr. John?

[Dr. John DeLoney]

I'm good. How are you?

[Ella]

Good. It's such an honor to talk to you. My boyfriend actually showed me this show and now I'm the one calling in with a question.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Very well. You're dating somebody very wise. Well done. Awesome. Thanks for being in our gang. What's up?

[Ella]

So just to sum it up, I'm wondering how to navigate through an unsure season with my boyfriend as he's recently made the decision to put everything all into his music career.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Tell me more about that.

[Ella]

So basically, my boyfriend and I have been together since we were 16 and 17. We went to the same high school, grew up in the same town, and then started at the same university, only an hour from our hometown. Although we're still young, we've always been goal oriented towards marriage and starting a family. Because of the unstable environment I grew up in, I've always been in more of a hurry than he was, but we talked about getting married as soon as possible once we were both done university. Now, here's where it gets interesting. My boyfriend is an incredibly talented musician and songwriter and has always wanted to make that his full time job. Knowing that that's a slippery slope, he started university instead while also doing music on the side. In the past year, he entered a music competition that changed the trajectory of his music career and made the decision to drop out of university to put more time and energy into his music so he could still earn some money on the side until his income is stable. He moved back to our hometown and back with his parents so he can work construction with his dad's. I still have one semester left, so we are now living in different towns now. We are kind of in a stalemate position where we wait until the moment he knows he has a steady income. With it being my last semester and having a full time job set up for January, this is where I always thought we would get engaged and start thinking about starting a family. Since his income is up in the air right now and we don't know what things are going to look like down the road, he says he would like to wait until he can provide a steady income.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Okay, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on. Stop reading to me. I want you to talk to me. You talk to me. Just tell me what's going on in your heart and mind. Is it the fact that he's getting famous all of a sudden and now you're exposed? Is it that you had this plan and it's all going away? Is it, oh, this is the part where we break up. Like, tell me what's going on in your heart and mind.

[Ella]

I think it's the part where I had this all planned out.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

There you go.

[Ella]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And it's not going that way.

[Caller (Sarah)]

No.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yeah. Do you still want to be with him?

[Caller (Sarah)]

Absolutely.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

You want to be with him if he goes on the road and y' all get to see each other two weekends every six months for the next three years while he tries to make this thing work?

[Caller (Sarah)]

Absolutely.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Okay. I think to me, getting that end. And by the way, this happens whether you're. How old are you? 22.

[Caller (Mitchell)]

23.

[Ella]

21 turning 22.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Okay. This happens whether you're 22. This happens whether you're married to somebody who is a baller at a CEO or associate vice president, then has a baby and is like, hey, I want to stay at home. This happens when you've been married, married to like Some kind of just a regular old middle manager who suddenly gets to be the vice president or the president, and all of a sudden there's a lot of eyes on you. Right. It's this. My life as I have it mapped out. When I choose to do life with somebody else, the ticket to that ride is it will not look how I mapped it out. And this is what's important for you. If that map has been what has kept you sane from an. From an unruly childhood or an unsafe childhood, it can feel like your whole world is coming down.

[Ella]

Yep.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And so the question I always want to ask is, are you going to leave?

[Ella]

Never.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Okay. So if you're. If you are in it with this guy, then the path is, y' all sit down. And here's what I would strongly recommend. And this is recommending this from a guy who five years ago had no social media. Zero. None. I didn't have anything. And I just crossed the 5 million mark across the platforms. This is like, I'm a guy who four years ago did not know what a YouTube channel was. I didn't know what that was. And we just crossed 800 million views. Okay, here's what I'm telling you. I would sit down with your boyfriend, slash the person you want to spend the rest of your life with, and commit to making 90 day plans.

[Ella]

Okay?

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Because everything's going to change. Every 90, every three months, you're going to realize this is different, this is worse, this is better, this is humongous, this is scary, and it changes. And so say instead of saying, well, it's going to be like this for the next 50 years, I promise you, whatever you have in your head, it's not going to be. And so sitting down and saying, hey, I want to. I am committed to us forever. And I also have a need for some sort of stability because my body is still reeling from being a kid in a chaotic world. Every 90 days, I want us to sit down and put everything on the table and say, do we still love each other? Are we still committed to this and what is real in this upcoming season?

[Ella]

Yep. So when he first made that decision to go all in with it, we actually did say that at the end and start of every month, we would kind of set new goals for the next month and kind of reflect on it. Start of the month. But I mean, I feel like we don't really know where to start in terms of what to plan out for the month, if that makes sense. But we just kind of had like a few things Just a few little things like trying to where like texting throughout the day and giving like little update updates is important to him. We tried to work on that for a month and nightly phone calls were important to me. So we tried to fit that in at the end of as many days.

[Caller (Sarah)]

As possible as well.

[Ella]

But kind of, I don't know how to go further than that.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

I mean, I think you have to ask yourself, what are your individual personal goals inside this relationship? And so you have to ask yourself, do I want to drop out of university? And I, I mean you're talking, I have plans with this guy versus I'm going all in on you. I'm gonna pause university and I'm gonna go in the bus with you around the world. And he may say, I don't want you to do that. That didn't feel comfortable to me. Or I would love that. Or you might say, I still want to be a teacher or a physician or an attorney or whatever you want to do. And so I'm going to go full speed doing that. What I what. There's a fine balance between being intentional about human connection and turning each other into a chore. Because what I don't want him to do is get off stage at 10 o' clock and have somebody run up backstage and say, hey, some big media outlet is here. And like there, here's a big moment. And yet he's like, well, I've got to do the. You see what I'm saying, right? And if you're not intentional, he'll just find people to chitchat with and talk and fans. And that's the recipe for I haven't talked to you in five days. So it's a really thin line, fine balance. And I'm going to be honest, me and my wife haven't figured it out yet either. I'm all over the country and we haven't figured it out either. So it's, it's a, it's a constant renegotiation. And sometimes I want to talk more in certain seasons. That's why every couple of months it's good, like, hey, I'm hitting the road, I want to talk every night. Cool. And then sometimes it's, let's just text. But I think you have to be honest about, okay, separate from this relationship because we are still just dating. What are my goals? To get a degree. What are my goals? To have a job. What am I like? And start continuing on your path towards that while at the same time to setting up check ins like, like bigger Broader conversations down the road. And then I. I guess what I want to prep you for is this isn't a straight line, meaning even, like Metallica, I'm wearing the shirt right now. They've had albums that flopped, and they've had albums they put out that went stratospheric, that went to the to Mars. And so you can't plan for either of those things. And you also can't plan for just a steady, steady climb or the steady, steady descent. That's why just coming back together is so important. But be prepared for, hey, what hap. How do you want me to love you when you get news that you got kicked off this showcase or your record label dropped you? How do you want me to celebrate with you when you get news that you just got picked up on a big tour? But I'm kind of sad because I'm not going to see you for four months. Like, some of those nuts and bolts are great. And then have the conversation about how far off do we like. I want to talk about marriage. I want to get married to you and be your wife. I know you just said you want to shelve everything for a while and see this music thing out. When is. Can we put on the calendar the next time we're going to talk about it? Because I don't want to feel like I want to look up and have it be three years. We haven't talked about a wedding. So let's put on the calendar for six months and let's revisit. Where are we. Let's put on a calendar for nine months. Let's revisit it again. And it's putting some things on the calendar with asterisks that can keep you not from feeling like I'm caught in a forever loop, but it can stay seasonal because no matter how cold it is in February, we all know it's going to warm up in April. And so just having things on the calendar ahead of us is so powerful. Congratulations, Ella. And my wife has had some of the greatest years of her life those few years and has had some really tough seasons as a scrutiny and people thinking they can say things to her, but just because she's attached to me like all that. So buckle up. And the more y' all talk about this on a regular basis, the better shot you both have to stay together and create an amazing relationship over time. We come back. A man is struggling to move past his partner's history so they can build a future together. This weekend, I got up really early with My son, and we headed to a local creek to go fishing. And I brought my fishing gear. And of course, I was wearing my favorite poncho shirt. If you've ever watched this show before or seen me speak live on stage or seen me fishing in a local creek, you've probably seen me in a poncho shirt. I wear them when I'm mowing or when I'm fishing, when I'm grilling, when I'm on stages, where ever. These shirts have become my go to because Poncho makes the absolute best outdoor performance shirts for men, period. The fabric's light and breathable, so I'm not drenched or stuck in my seat two minutes after I sit down. But they're also really durable. They move with you and not against you. And poncho shirts don't cling and bunch up and make you look like a human sausage. You know what I'm talking about? Listen, life is loud, fast, and messy, and you need clothes that work with how you live. That's why I wear a poncho. And you should wear poncho, too. Go to poncho outdoors.com deloney and check out a few of my favorites, like the Burnt end and the Steel head. And right now, new customers get 10 bucks off when you sign up with your email@poncho outdoors.com DeLoney all right, let's go back to Canada. This time in Alberta and talk to Mitchell. Hey, Mitchell. What's up, man?

[Caller (Sarah)]

Hey.

[Caller (Mitchell)]

How's it going?

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Great. How are you?

[Caller (Mitchell)]

I'm not too bad. So, yeah. Just a general question about relationship. I've been seeing a girl for about eight or nine months now. She is 10 years older than me. It has been going fantastic. But I noticed a weird feeling I got when I bought tickets to a football game. And, you know, like she mentioned she's been there a couple times before to see said football game. I kind of got, like, a weird feeling about it. Not like a feeling of inadequacy or jealousy. More like a feeling of I'm kind of just retracing her steps. So now I feel like there's a little bit more pressure to personalize dates or situations with her. And I'm just kind of curious if that's maybe normal or if there's steps I can take to, you know, work past that feeling.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

I mean, how old are you?

[Caller (Mitchell)]

I'm 26.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

26. So she's 36?

[Caller (Mitchell)]

Yes.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

How'd y' all meet?

[Caller (Mitchell)]

Online. Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Perfect. You both swiped right.

[Caller (Mitchell)]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Excellent. And so y' all Been together nine months. Are y' all dating exclusively?

[Caller (Mitchell)]

Yeah, yeah, we're exclusive. We're taking it really slow. We both have one child each, so, you know, we recently just introduced them, so it's going really well in that regard. They get along, so that's great.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Okay, so when you. You said you're. I'm not jealous. Like, I'm not jealous. It's cool, man. But you're feeling inadequate.

[Caller (Mitchell)]

No, I don't think it's inadequacy either. I think it's. What I'm feeling is a lot of pressure now to personalize whatever date we go on, if that makes sense. I would hope.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

I would hope you would personalize any date you go on.

[Caller (Mitchell)]

That's fair. Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Like, tell me about. Is it that you can't. Is it the old tricks on the schoolyard, the old tricks in university, like, don't work with someone who has. Knows all the lower level moves and now is asking. I want you to see me for who I am and get to know me and then let's. Like, I want every date I go on with my wife to be somewhat personal. Right. And We've been together 27, 28 years.

[Caller (Mitchell)]

Of course. Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

So tell me. Like, it sounds like you feel inadequate, but you don't. You don't want to say it, or you're wondering again, you're wondering if she had a better time with somebody else at the same game in the same seat.

[Caller (Sarah)]

No.

[Caller (Mitchell)]

No, definitely not.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Okay.

[Caller (Mitchell)]

Again, it's more like, if she's been here before, what can I do to make it better this time? Right. And I feel like there's just more pressure now in regards to that. And it used to be like, if we were planning a date, it was nothing. It was like, okay, we're going out, we're going to have a great time. We're going to experience something together, and it's going to be awesome. But now every time I plan something, I got to think, like, okay, if she's been here before, what can I do to make it better than the last time?

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Right? Yes. And this is a classic male dilemma. Can I tell you what it is?

[Caller (Mitchell)]

Okay. Yes, please.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

She chose you. And all you can see is being with her through the lens of a performance. You are what's different at that soccer game. Your laughter, your youthful exuberance, your joy, your fill in the blank.

[Caller (Mitchell)]

Right.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

But for you, you're looking for, how can I. Where's the fireworks? Where is the jets flying over? And I'll tell you, if you pursue that eventually that runs out of gas and you're going to start feeling dead in your own skin. And that's when you're going to pick up that phone and swipe right on somebody else. I guarantee it.

[Caller (Mitchell)]

Gotcha.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

If you. If you will exhale into this crazy notion that she chose you for you and that you are the differentiating factor at these football games and at the dinners, and you are going to get to know her well and not look for moonshots, but look for tiny little wins. Where you say, like, I see you and I know you. That's my big question is, why the football game? Did you even want to go to that?

[Caller (Mitchell)]

Oh, yeah, she's a big fan. I'm not. Okay, so this is all for her.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Awesome. That's fantastic. And so most men, most of the time, feel a that everything we do, from work to the dishes to sex, everything is seen through the lens of performing. And the most common complaint I hear from women, from wives, from girlfriends, is I can't connect to that guy because he's. And. And this is my language, because he's always on a stage, he's never in the audience. With me, next to me, it's always a performance. It's always glancing over to see his abs in the mirror. It's always. It's always, am I. And here's the question underneath performance, am I enough?

[Caller (Mitchell)]

Right?

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And bro, I'm in my late 40s and I am still wrestling with that question. If you can solve that for you at 26, 27, you will win. How? Tell me about your kid. Little boy, little girl, little boy.

[Caller (Mitchell)]

Yeah, he'll be seven in August.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

The greatest gift ever. The greatest gift you can give that boy is to look him in the eye and put your hands on his face every single day and say, I love you. By the way, my son is 15. He's humongous. He's like big, muscular. He's taller than me now, which I can't even believe. I'm six two. He's already bigger than me. And this morning, as he was heading out to go get some miles in, I grabbed him and made sure I hugged him and told him I loved him. And it felt awkward. He's a big. He's a man now. He's big. And still I'm gonna hug you because I love you. And you're never gonna, like, even on the way for him to go perform this morning, it was like, hey, divorced from that stuff, your dad loves you. You got value and worth beyond that stuff. Now you can go really let loose on that track.

[Caller (Mitchell)]

Right.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Does that ring true at all?

[Caller (Mitchell)]

It does. It makes a lot of sense.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Okay. There may be a conversation with her that you sit down and say, you got 10 years on me. Actually, don't say that because she might stab you in the eye. But be like, I realized that I'm constantly trying to perform for you, and we've been together for nine months, and I'm really going to work on getting to know you and what you love and being with you, not at you, not over you. And her jaw might just fall all the way to the floor. And that doesn't mean, by the way, for all men listening, that doesn't mean men don't have a lot to do. We still have to show up and go first and open like we still have to go do. Right. But it's doing from a place of, with and for, not over. It's not a performance.

[Caller (Mitchell)]

Right, right. She. She did kind of say the same thing when I. I did bring this up to her. Right. But again, I just need. I just needed confirmation that, you know, I was kind of feeling something normal.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

So you won't get this from any of the man's fear nonsense out there. No, it doesn't exist. It doesn't exist. The faulty thinking out in the man's fear is if you flex enough and perform enough, then you will get the stuff that you want. And what I wanted to flip it around and say, when you are fully seen, when somebody actually knows you and you have the courage to be seen and say things out loud that are scary and. And go do the next thing, you can go do the next thing infinitely better, infinitely longer, infinitely more successfully. And it's like, it's a. It's a weird paradox. And I'm. Man, I would do anything to be able to go back to be 26 and be having this conversation with myself. Because I spent so many years thinking my wife was into abs, how much money I made in my job titles, and really the whole time she was into me, and I was so scared of being seen as me. I put all. I went through all these layers and all these masks to try to say, do you like me now? Do you like me now? And she's like, I always loved you. And I was like, okay, yeah, whatever. Check this out. Do you like me now? And she's like, I've always loved you. And I was never able to like to feel that, but it was. It was because I was walking around with masks on and it wasn't until the masks fell off. I mean, until they just literally crashed to the ground. That I was finally able to say, okay, this is me. Do you still love me? And she said, I've always loved you. So, brother, you are there, my man. Congratulations. You are. What is different about those games? You. And instead of fireworks during a cool part in the game, just quietly grab her hand by her side. And that may be the greatest moment she's experienced at one of those games ever. Thanks for the call, brother. We come back. A woman is battling anger and fear as she tries to uplift a son lost in addiction. All right, it's time for a quick word about Delete Me. Do you feel like your digital footprint is starting to feel like a digital trail leading bad guys who are listening and watching everything you do online right back to you right now. Scammers are using phishing attacks. That's phishing with a pH, where they try to trick you into giving them something by pretending to know you, right? And you get an email or a text or a phone call, and the person or the AI bot on the other end sounds like someone who's looking out for you like a good friend, but they're not. They're trying to take stuff from you. With these new technological advancements, no one is really safe. So what are we supposed to do? Start controlling what we can. We can learn about how to be careful online and offline, and we can sign up with Delete Me. I use and personally recommend delete me because they work in the background to reduce my online presence. That way I don't have to worry about creepy data brokers having my data. They've reviewed over tens of thousands of sites for me, and they've removed my data from hundreds of them, which has saved me countless hours and a ton of stress. Stop the phishing attacks, the harassment, and the other online threats before they start and take control of your digital privacy. With Delete me, go to joindeleteme.com DeLoney today for 20% off an annual plan that comes out to less than nine bucks a month. That's JoinDeleteMe.com Deloney all right, please, please, please take two seconds and hit the subscribe button there on YouTube. I got some really lofty YouTube goals by the end of this year, and I can only do it with your help. If you'll take a second and hit the subscribe button on YouTube or if you're listening to podcasts or listen to us on Spotify. By the way, Spotify has been such an amazing partner I love those guys. I love that team. If you will take a second and subscribe to the show wherever you're listening or watching it, it makes such a huge difference to your friends and neighbors who don't even know the show exists. So thank you so, so much. All right, let's go out to Baltimore, Maryland and get under the wire and talk to Sarah. Hey, Sarah, what's up?

[Caller (Sarah)]

Hey, Dr. John. It's nice to talk to you.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

It's great to talk to you.

[Caller (Sarah)]

So here's my question. How can I effectively praise the positive qualities in my 17 year old son who is struggling with addiction despite the challenges his behavior has caused in my life, my deep concerns for his future, and definitely anger that I am holding.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yeah, man, I just. Last night I was at dinner, it was just me and my son, we went to grab some Mexican food at a tiny little place here in Nashville. Literally a hole in the wall. And he asked me what's been bothering me and I said, it's becoming increasingly clear that I can't. I can control what comes in out of my home, but that he's heading into a world that is, just has no breaks.

[Caller (Sarah)]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And that he's gonna have to make choices. And it scares me.

[Caller (Sarah)]

And I think that I, you know, I thought I could control what was coming in out of my home. And I've gotten a different lesson. It's not a new thing for us. It's been a really challenging four or five years. And my son does have ADHD and anxiety and major depressive disorder. And all the way back to fourth grade he said that, you know, the people, what people see on the outside is, is not how he feels on the inside.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

So addiction, addiction for him is. This is going to sound crazy. Okay, so go with me. But addiction. What's his drug of choice?

[Caller (Sarah)]

Mostly marijuana, but it's increased to other types of experiments.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Okay. So marijuana, by and large has been the solution to his problems. And he wouldn't keep doing it if at some level it didn't work. And the most harrowing thing, when I've talked to parents whose children are struggling with some sort of addiction, is that the thing both is working and it will kill my kid. And it's been my experience, and you can tell me if this doesn't ring true, that underneath everything, when a parent is trying to make the next right decision for, especially for a late teenager who's about to head into adulthood, about to leave the house. Right. Do whatever, do whatever they want. Right. Is a sense of what did I Do very much like a sense of shame. That's really heavy.

[Caller (Sarah)]

Yeah, it's really heavy because my husband and I are. We. You know, we. We never. Like. I've never even had a cigarette.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yeah.

[Caller (Mitchell)]

So it's not about that behavior.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

But it's not about that, though. It's not about that behavior because the behavior is a solution to. Ugh.

[Caller (Sarah)]

Yeah. And where we are now, I mean, he's. He's had continued therapy. You know, he's had medication management. He's done different programs. He's had long stretches of positive sobriety, awes. And things took a pretty bad turn this last March, where he started using again after not using for a very long time. A good, like, nine months.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Was there a triggering event in March?

[Caller (Sarah)]

No. I mean, he started. He kind of got his hands on it over Christmas break because he was bored. He doesn't do this socially. He only does it solo, total solitary thing. He even asked at that time in January to go to an inpatient. Excuse me, not an inpatient, but like an intensive outpatient program. And that didn't solve it for him, and he sort of slid into more suicidal ideology. And we. He had to go to an inpatient hospitalization program in March and then led into a successful residential rehab program. But over the last four or five years, you know, things that I would never thought he would have done, he has done. I live in a house that I never thought I would live in as much as we put all the protective factors we could think of in place. You know, all of our medication is locked. I lock my keys, I lock on my wallet. He has no access to money. We've locked our spray paint so he can't get high on that. And I know that from the books that I've read, the family therapy that we've done, what he is saying to us, which is, you know, why can't you guys ever see the good? You're living in the past. And, you know, we don't trust. There's no part of us that would be even rational to trust him. That said, we take leaps of faith all the time, realizing that it is his choice, that he is going to have to do the work, that he can't prove himself unless we let him prove himself.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

But when you say leaps of faith, give me an example.

[Caller (Sarah)]

Leaps of faith. Hey, I'd like to, you know, take the train to go see my friends. Okay, we'll let you take the train because he doesn't drive, because we're not gonna let him get a license.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yeah. So can I. Can I flip this around a little bit? Because here's. There's. Everybody gets stuck in a dance. It happens in marriages. It happens with students and teachers. It happens with parents and kids. All of us are all get stuck in a dance. We get stuck in our dance with our bosses. Right. He lives in a failure factory that's inside of his own skin. Right. And because you love him and want to keep him safe, you take away the sharp edges of the world so that he won't literally trip and fall on him.

[Caller (Sarah)]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And that's the right thing to do. And that also tells his exterior that he lives in a failure factory out there too. And it builds and it builds and it builds. And then he says, can I take a train? And y' all are like, yep. And then it explodes. And I don't know how this. I've never been able to figure this out, but it's amazing if you. Not if you've smoked weed a couple times, but if you're a regular user, you can walk into a room and look across that room of 200 people and go, there's one, there's one, there's one. Cocaine, coke, folks are the best. They're unbelievable at it. They walk into a room and go, that dude's got it and that dude's got it. And they're always right. It's astonishing to me, but it just is what it is. And so then the external world, when he fails over Christmas break, he gets really bored and is with a buddy and he takes the train. He's doing it all by himself and he's proving to himself. And then he gets a whole bunch of weed and goes home and hides it and he white knuckles it from the end of January into February, and it's dark and cold and miserable and lonely. Then he proves to himself that he's a failure. And that triggers that entire cascade of, I shouldn't be here, I'll never be able to do this, et cetera, et cetera. So here's the thing. You're. Y' all are trapped because you have to do those things. You have to keep money away from him for his. For his sanity, for safety. And you have to keep drugs away from him the best you can. Right? As good as you can. Here's a couple of things I would put on the table as potential, well called little wins. But little wins that are going to mean a humongous deal to his nervous system. Is that cool?

[Caller (Sarah)]

Okay.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

You don't have to do this. And you're gonna have to. This is the hard part. As the adult, you're gonna have to say, I'm really pissed off. I'm really deeply angry, and I've got shame circulating through my bloodstream that few parents can. Can fully grasp how thick that is, how much it hurts. Right? And then what's the next right thing? So the first thing is constantly be looking for not action. I mean, not actions, but efforts to praise.

[Caller (Sarah)]

Okay?

[Dr. John DeLoney]

The phrase I see you followed by worked really hard, tried so hard, really, really gritted it out. I. I saw you're always praising effort so that his identity doesn't get wrapped up in the next action. Because as a kid who's known since fourth grade, his body doesn't feel the way reality actually is. He knows that he's untrustworthy when it comes to the next right action. So we're going to praise effort all the time. The second thing is this. What if you gave him a job like this? Hey, honey, I need to borrow your nervous system. Will you do Mom a favor and let's watch an old rerun of the Office, and I want you to hold my hand for the whole episode, please.

[Caller (Mitchell)]

Okay.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And what you're doing is you're giving him a job that he 100% can be successful at, and he's doing something for you. And by the way, he carries tremendous guilt for you guys, too. He just doesn't know how to carry it. And it's a tiny little. Hey, son, this is a crazy thing. Will you. This is your husband saying, like, son, will you come help me with this thing? I can't do this without you. It would mean the world to me if you would help me out. Dad, I don't want to. I know, I know. This isn't for you. This is for me. And what we're doing is we're giving him tiny wins on an action he's taking. But here's the important thing. Those actions are relational in nature. They're not. Drive across town on a train, and hopefully you make a good decision. You still got to let him do that. He's about to be 18. He's gonna get on whatever train he wants to correct. But I want him to feel how good it is when he's in the business of serving somebody else. And if at the end of the Office episode or whatever, your show y' all watch in your house, whatever. At the end of that, if you'll look at him and say, your old mama really needed that, thank you for loving me, send him on.

[Caller (Sarah)]

Okay.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

That gives him, he will feel a sense of electricity through his body that he's probably never felt or hadn't felt in years because he doesn't know how to win relationally. He doesn't know how to win action wise and he doesn't know how to win substance wise.

[Caller (Sarah)]

Okay.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And so let's give him a bunch of tiny relationship wins.

[Caller (Sarah)]

Yeah, it's, it's, you know, he's, he said this to me before too, where he's like, you keep saying it's going to get better and it never gets better. And I said, you know, you're like the worst juxtaposition of your life. You're 17, you got all these hormones, you get all this stuff. He has all this angst. Plus you've got all these other challenges on, on top of it. And so it's really difficult. It actually it just depends on which version you're getting that day.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

That's right.

[Caller (Sarah)]

And. And the other thing that is that it's exhausting to live there.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

It is. Kind of. It's so. Yes. And can I just give you permission as a mom? I know you have this like, you're in a. You're in a guilt shame spiral that's so powerful. You don't want to even go to your own house.

[Caller (Sarah)]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

You don't like the house you live in. And then there's that like, oh, if a real, if you're a real mom, you would love. Listen. Those voices are nonsense and they're wrong. It's right to be scared to go into your own house when you're with a 17 year old, that you're worried every time you open the door, is he gonna be alive? You're not crazy and there's not something wrong with you. Okay.

[Caller (Sarah)]

Okay. Yeah. And I, you know, I've heard you talk about that picture that you thought you were gonna have.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yeah.

[Caller (Sarah)]

And to grieve that. And I just feel like I have to keep grieving the next picture over.

[Caller (Mitchell)]

And over and over.

[Caller (Sarah)]

So they're okay.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

What if you, what if you set the paintbrush down for a bit?

[Caller (Mitchell)]

Okay.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Because that picture puts a ton of pressure on you and on him. And he's not in a place to carry any pressure. And honestly, you're not either right now. And so I want you also, by the way, you doing something like, hey, will you hold my hand while we watch a show? Honey, I'm going to pay you 10 bucks if you come rub my shoulders. You're going to give me $10? I am. You can't Use it on drugs. Because that's weird because you're rubbing your mom's shoulders, but I need a shoulder r. I'm gonna give him some tiny, tiny little wins that are relational and touch centric and whatever. And he may say no.

[Caller (Sarah)]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

And you have to decide. That's not an indictment of you. It's an. It's. That's just the. That's the version of him you got that day. That's fine.

[Caller (Sarah)]

Yep.

[Caller (Mitchell)]

And then I'm done.

[Caller (Sarah)]

A lot of. A lot of growth in that area.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

There you go.

[Caller (Sarah)]

Like, I've done a lot of growth in that area of not taking things personal.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

I took it personal when my one year old didn't want me to hug. Like, so I'm there with you. I get it. It. But it's. I'm gonna come back the next day. Hey, will you please help your mom out? Your mom. Your old mom needs to hold a hand. Your hand. I need your. Borrow your nervous system because you make me feel calm. Really? Yes. Would you love your old mom? Like that? Fine. And all the eye rolls and all the I don't want to's, and mom, it makes me anxious. I know. Just for me. And if you're safe, if you're a safe person, both of you win there.

[Caller (Sarah)]

Yeah. Yeah. And I know when he needs it, too. I mean, he's giant, and yet he. You know, when he's having a good day or sometimes even when he's not having a good day, like, he'll come into my room, he'll climb into my bed. He still wants a hug.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

That's right.

[Caller (Sarah)]

You know, and then there's other days where, like, you know, it's all your fault. And of course, you know, I can't say anything right and I'm doing it wrong again.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Can I give you. Can I give you an outlet on that?

[Caller (Sarah)]

Yeah.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

If you'll look at him and say, hold on one second. Hold on one second. And you pull out your. Out your watch, not your phone, but your watch, and say, all right, you got five minutes. I understand that you think I'm the worst. I want to hear it. You got five minutes. Go. What it will do. It was. It will begin to. To put a boundary on it. And what he needs to know is when he has these humongous, powerful feelings that few people in the world can understand. If you don't struggle with addiction, they're so powerful that he can begin to get control over them. And so when you say, all right, you got five minutes to rip me Apart, Go. I don't want it. No, no, no, no, no. I'm the worst. I get it. You get five minutes. Go. Yep. And let him just rip. And then at five minutes you'll be able to go, okay, time's up, time's up. And he'll stop. He will, won't he?

[Caller (Sarah)]

Yeah, yeah, he will. And the other thing that's really sort of maddening is that it's the inconsistency of sometimes he'll come to you and he'll, you know, he'll either tell you something he's thinking of doing or that he has done, but he hasn't fully transacted it yet. So he allows us to be part of it. And then the other stance is like, I have to do this on my own. I'm doing it on my own. It's my decision, you know, you don't help me. The words use don't help.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Sure.

[Caller (Sarah)]

I mean, there have been times where I can't tell you how many times. Dr. John. I mean, he's come to me at 10, 11, 1 o' clock in the morning and we're having these feelings, we're having these thoughts and we take a walk. I cannot tell you how many times I have walked at 1, 2, whatever, in the morning. But then there's these periods of time where he won't. And, and again, I guess I just need to take this down to much tinier. Tinier, tinier.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Well, here's the thing. If you wait for him to come for your help, it will come intermittently, right?

[Caller (Sarah)]

Okay.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

If you go to him and say, I need you, okay. What he's going to get in very micro doses is a purpose, a sense of value that he doesn't have. And the fact that he shows up every once in a while at 1am is the most annoying thing in the world for a mom who's exhausted, trying to get some sleep. But also that means he knows deep down you're safe and you'll go for a walk with him. He knows that. And at some. Sometimes he has to override that impulse to come talk to you and do the next thing that might get him hurt. And so by, by the way, you doing micro things like that. Hey, will you help me with dinner? I need you to hold this for me while I, While I cut this thing. Or what if you give him a couple of mic. It's not going to heal this whole thing.

[Caller (Sarah)]

Right.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

But it will begin. His body will. My prediction is maybe way out to lunch that it will go that feels so good. And then he'll fight that and he'll be like, I'm not helping you. Because even feeling good is a way that it feels foreign. He did. There's part of him that doesn't want to feel good. And I know that sounds bananas, but if you've never worked with folks with addiction, that doesn't make any sense. But it does. But it's constantly showing up and said, no, no, I. I need your help. I see value in you. I see a little purpose here in you. Can you help me with this? Hey, you're big and tall. I need you to help me undo these jars. I don't want. I know. And it's slow, slow, slow. And of course, be there when he knocks on the door at 1am it's maddening, but those are magic, magic moments. You're a great mom, Sarah. Hang in there. Call anytime. We'll be right back. This show is sponsored by Better Help. Everyone is talking about therapy, therapy, therapy these days. And I often hear folks say, I don't think I've had any major traumas in my life. So I don't know if therapy is for me. Listen, this is really important. Therapy is not just for people dealing with major traumas. It can be for that, but it's also a valuable tool for anyone looking to improve their mental and emotional well being. Personally, I see a therapist for both the big challenges from my past as well as for helping me navigate the day to day challenges that pop up. Many of you should consider seeing a therapist too. And if you're thinking about trying therapy, contact my friends at Better Help. BetterHelp is 100% online, so it's affordable and convenient for your schedule. And as the largest online therapy provider in the world, BetterHelp can provide access to mental health professionals with a diverse variety of expertise. They have over 10 years of experience matching people with the right therapist just for them to get started. Just fill out a short online survey to get matched with a licensed therapist. If it's not the right fit, you can switch therapists at any time. Easily, easily and for no extra cost. Talk it out with better help. Visit betterhelp.com DeLoney to get 10 off your first month. That's a better help. H E-L-P.com DeLoney all right, Kelly 2.0 is here sitting in for Kelly 1.0, who's probably at some dentures appointment or something. Kelly, am I the problem? Go for it.

[Kelly 2.0]

We'll find out. Okay, so this is from Diane in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. She writes, I have shared with my husband for how I would love and appreciate if he would take pictures of me and the kids. I'm always the one to capture special moments with him and our daughters. But in order for me to have pictures that I actually like, I have to constantly give him my phone and tell him to take the picture. We recently went to Disney, and when we were on our first ride, I asked him to please take pictures of me and the girls, and he said okay. When I asked him for his phone a couple days later, he did not take a single photo. And it really upset me. Am I the problem?

[Dr. John DeLoney]

I think there's a generational divide here. What do you think? I'm interested to know because you're 40 years younger than me. What do you think?

[Kelly 2.0]

I see her side. I would be really frustrated of, like, why can't you just take a picture of me? It's not that hard. But I would also just be curious on what the miscommunication is of. Honestly, like, what his problem is. But also, is she putting way too much stock in photos and taking photos and, like, that's all she wants to do. Because then if I was him, I would be like, I'm done taking pictures. So I would just. I would need some more information.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

So this is exact thing has happened in my house, and it, like, the exact. Hey, all the pictures are of you and the. Of me and the kids, and my wife and the kids aren't in any of them. I need you to start taking more pictures. And. And a. I am quote unquote on. And this is before I worked here. I'm on at every job. I'm on all the time. When I get those sacred holy moments where I get to be with my wife and kids, it is such a laser beam. And every single place I turn, I'm being told, put your phone away and be present. Put your phone away and be present. Put your phone away and be present. And so I literally do the best I can to do that. And then it's like, like, oh, but also. Also do this, like, keep a. Like, be the, you know, the anthropological association here and keep all the records. Like, so I have always. I have felt that a lot. And it wasn't until I told my wife, hey, I'm. I'm doing everything I can to be fully present here and to be in this moment, not to capture it. If you see a moment coming up, let me know of this moment. Because I don't want to be the guy walking around with my phone trying to capture everything and then actually missing it in real time. And that was a great exchange for us because my wife's. Okay, I really honor the fact that you're trying to be here fully. Now, if I'm over here on my phone checking sports scores, and I'm like, no, dude, I'm trying, then I'm just an idiot. Right. But if she's trying to get some highlight reels for her Instagram and her husband's trying to be present, you actually got a pretty awesome guy. But I've been on the other side of that too, where my wife's like, hey, there are no pictures of me and the kids because nobody else takes them but me. That was a fair call out. But I just asked her for a little bit further road map of, hey, I'm about to get on this roller coaster with these two. You stand right here and take pictures of this. I'm like, all right, I got it. So it's a little. Being a little bit more specific. That's. I don't know. What do you think?

[Caller (Andrew)]

We've talked about this a bunch. My wife was a photographer for years and years on Instagram, and that it became a lot, especially once we had kids.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yeah.

[Caller (Andrew)]

So she tried to pull back from that super minimalist phone, all of that. No photos. But then we miss stuff.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yeah.

[Caller (Andrew)]

And so now we are. We're having this conversation often because we don't want to miss the. The thing in the memory. But also, we don't want to be in our phones.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

So we.

[Caller (Andrew)]

We have cameras that we carry around a lot.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Oh, nice. Okay. So y' all just switch the device. That's actually a great idea. Like.

[Caller (Andrew)]

Yeah, that helps it be way more intentional.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Hey, husband, here's a camera around your neck. Old school. And that way you're not on your phone. And this thing is. That's a great idea, man. I didn't even thought of that.

[Caller (Andrew)]

And my wife was a photo. Is a photographer, so we kind of already had that.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

Yeah.

[Caller (Andrew)]

But it's helpful.

[Dr. John DeLoney]

That's a great idea. So that's my thought on it. I think it's context dependent, but I don't know. I'm. I don't like having my phone out in public, so I'm gonna blame her. That just makes me feel better. But, hey, listen, if at all possible, be present in the moment without your phones. And also, last. I. I mean, seriously, just last night, my wife and a family friend and my son and I were going through old photos from back when I was in college, and it was awesome to have them. So there is a balance here. I love Andrew. I love your idea of carrying an actual camera. Keep those stupid phones away. And then if you want to capture a moment, there's a level of intentionality. That sounds awesome. Love you guys. Bye.