B (2:32)

Well, I know. I'm wondering if. Is that the first time you said that all out loud to another person?

A (2:40)

I mean, my husband and I have talked very openly about it.

B (2:44)

What is. What does desire mean to you?

A (2:48)

That he, like, when he looks at me or thinks about me, he thinks I want to jump her bones.

B (2:54)

Okay.

A (2:55)

Like, I want to do things. I want to try things. I want to experience things.

B (2:59)

So. So desire for you is. Is sexual? It's in the bedroom?

A (3:03)

Yes. Yeah.

B (3:03)

Okay. Or on the kitchen table. Wherever. On the cow. Like, wherever.

A (3:07)

Yeah.

B (3:13)

So backing out of, like, we'll get to. We'll get to talking about sex here. Okay. But let's back out for a second.

C (3:19)

Sure.

B (3:19)

Where else do you not feel desired?

A (3:25)

It's mostly physical.

C (3:27)

I.

A (3:28)

He does a really good job of appreciating my personality, how hard I work, all the effort that I put in to everything. He. He loves and respects me. He is very kind, very gentle, very. Just like, he's a. He's a really good person. He's a really good guy. I. And we've talked a lot about this, and he. I think he just does not feel that desire. I don't. I don't think it's me personally.

C (3:54)

I think it's.

A (3:55)

No matter who he was married to, it wouldn't. He just doesn't have the. Like. Even we were. We were virgins when we got married, and even when we were dating, this was an issue, but we attributed it to fear of pushing purity, boundaries. And he, like, he told me, once you're married, you know, I'm not going to keep my hands off of you. I just don't want to push the line. I don't want to cross anything that we're not supposed to. It's like. So I chalked up his not wanting to make out to wanting to be a good Christian. And, you know, I loved that at the time, but I was very open and honest about wanting a fun, enthusiastic sex life. I was really vulnerable, and honestly, I was explicit. And he promised that we could try anything, that he would be into it. And then we got married, and all the handcuffs were taken off and none were put on.

B (4:49)

Um, so. Trying to find a good place to start.

A (4:59)

Sure. Yeah. No, it's. It's. It's not a normal problem.

C (5:01)

All the.

A (5:01)

All the Christian marriage books have a chapter about the other way around, but nobody knows how to deal with this.

B (5:05)

I'm gonna be. I, I. Most of the Christian marriage books are about as useful as used toilet paper, so.

C (5:14)

Yep.

B (5:15)

So let's put those aside. My biggest concern here is you have said, I want this, and I value this. And he has looked at you and said no.

A (5:36)

Yep. He said, I'm really sorry. I. I know that. That this is what you wanted. I know I promised you that I would do these things with you and give you these things. I just. I don't.

C (5:47)

I Don't.

A (5:47)

I don't.

B (5:49)

So how do you hold that intention with. Okay. And so let me say it like this. And I'm always careful when I say this, because this gets weaponized in really awful ways. Okay. So I want to say this up front. If you are. It usually gets weaponized in the reverse. So if you're a man who's listening to this and you choose to weaponize this, I don't support that. In fact, I condemn that. I think it's wrong. Okay. But there's two different types of desire. One is spontaneous. It happens. It sounds like you. I will do it anywhere, anytime. Oh, my gosh. He looked at me. How about right now? Right. And there's responsive desire. Once this train gets cooking, I don't feel like it. In fact, I rarely feel like it, But I'm never sad that I did it. In fact, it feels good while it's happening. It's awesome.

A (6:44)

Yes.

B (6:45)

It just.

A (6:46)

He. He experienced. I'm sorry.

B (6:48)

Go ahead. Is that him?

A (6:51)

Yes, sometimes. Okay, so we. This isn't about, like, frequency of sex. We have sex a couple times a month. I initiate most of the time. It's kind of not in the mood. Maybe later. Sometimes he gets into it and it's fine. Those times are always, always the same. But they're fine. But a lot of times, always the same.

B (7:09)

What does that mean? Same positions, same routine.

A (7:13)

Same, same. Yeah, but a lot of times it's like obligation sex, which, honestly, I. It's worse than just being straight up, shut down. It's.

B (7:23)

I agree.

A (7:24)

It feels humiliating and I just want it over.

B (7:26)

Yes. Yeah, I agree. I agree. And so I guess my question for him is I would ask for anybody on the other side of this is. Just because you don't feel like it initially, why has he not explored why I don't feel like it?

A (7:45)

So about five years ago, after a lot of pushing, we went to marriage counseling because, you know, is he gay? Is he was. Does he have sexual trauma? Like, let's get to the bottom of this because we had already done the, like, physical, go to your doctor, get tested for stuff. And after a year of marriage counseling, we. He could not remember any kind of sexual trauma. He out and out, does not think it's any kind of attraction to men or anything. We really got nowhere. The counselor recommended that we ended up separating. So we separated for a couple of months, and then we stopped going to counseling because I didn't want to be separated.

B (8:24)

Okay, so you've boxed yourself into a pretty. Pretty harsh predicament Right.

A (8:32)

Yeah. And the other, the other part of this is I sometimes wonder if I'm in the wrong, if the roles are reversed and, you know, husband is asking his wife for something that she's not comfortable with. You know, everyone agrees that that guy's violating boundaries. So, you know, I'm spiral sometimes. Like, for example, like oral sex, I love giving it. He has no problem receiving it. He promised he would try oral sex with me, but in 12 years of marriage, he's never once attempted it. And he knows how much it hurts because they bring it up almost every time we talk about this.

B (9:02)

What's his reason for not doing? Is he think it's gross? Is he uncomfortable that he's think it's wrong?

A (9:07)

He did not think it's wrong. He told me he doesn't want to do it because he thinks he'll throw up. And that's really hard. It's really hard to hear because it's not just about the act and the fact that I'm never going to get to experience it, but knowing that my husband is like, is repulsed by something that intimate is shattering. And it's not me. It's not me specifically. He's assured me of that. Like, he's told me, like, I am attracted to your body. It's not, it's not you specifically. It's any, any vagina would gross him out. Like, he's never seen me. He's never seen me in the light.

B (9:52)

I mean, I guess the best I can do right now is sit here with you. That sucks. It's heartbreaking.

A (9:58)

Yeah. Thanks.

B (10:02)

And I have some very unhelpful, un, Unremarkable wisdom to pass along to you, but it's not going to take this pain away.

A (10:18)

Darn. I'll take it any.

B (10:30)

There's a lot here. I'm tempted to say, and I want to tell you that my temptation is wrong, but I want to call it out for anybody who's listening to this. Okay. I'm tempted to say, what if we believed him?

A (10:53)

Oh, I do. I believe him.

B (10:54)

No, hold on, hold on.

A (10:55)

Sorry.

B (10:56)

I think there's something else. I, I, this is, this one's hard for me because I only, I only have one side of it. Okay.

A (11:03)

Yeah.

B (11:04)

And there is a, it's over represented in the media, but it is a, a physiological thing. There is those that they're, they're classified as asexual.

A (11:17)

Yeah.

B (11:18)

The switch is off. And I have, and, and they have no interest in turning it back on or they have no interest in Being interested in how pleasurable I can make my spouse's life.

A (11:36)

Yep. And I. And I don't know how to forgive him for marrying me anyway, when I knew. And he knew that I was not going to be content with that, because how do you not know that about yourself? And maybe that's.

B (11:53)

Yeah. I mean, and that's where I'm going to get to my unhelpful, like, it's. It's not going to make you feel better wisdom here. I would be very careful about the stories you're making up about him and why he did what he did, why he's doing what he's doing, because the stories you're making up about what he. Why he's doing, what he's doing is causing as much, if not more pain than what's actually happening in reality. And they're not getting you any closer to what you want, which is to be desired by your spouse. And y' all have done the things that I would have recommended, like go get hormone checks and medical checks, checkups, and go sit with a therapist and go try to unpack some of this stuff, because statistically speaking, it is outside of the norm.

A (12:45)

Yep.

B (12:47)

And coming up with reasons that he somehow tricked you, somehow lied to you, somehow created this. Like, that's a lot of. That's coming from inside of you, not inside of him. Unless he's looked at you and said, yeah, I kind of knew this. I just thought it wouldn't bother you that much if he did. If he did do that. That's some significant deception, right?

A (13:07)

Yeah. No, it's not that.

B (13:08)

Okay. So.

A (13:13)

Man, I just don't know how to feel anything other than resentment and anger at this point. And so I think that's probably just an easy way to direct my anger.

B (13:23)

There you go. That's a really powerful statement. You just made.

C (13:32)

It.

B (13:32)

There's. There's not a. An easy remedy for. My husband says he's going to throw up. There's no remedy for. There's no easy remedy for. My husband has refused to look at my naked body for 12 years, period. I'm going to be really honest with you and tell you I've never heard that, and I've talked to thousands of different people because that's. That's. That's not a. That is an. I'm going out of my way to make sure you don't feel loved. You get what I'm saying? And I get how this gets all tangled up into. She won't do this particular act. And I would Tell some guys, dude, get over yourself. Move on with your life. You'll have a healthy sex life. You'll have a bunch of stuff. And you're focusing on this one thing she won't do. I don't hear that in your situation at all. Okay? Because I do get calls for mostly from men or have conversations behind closed doors with mostly men who are like, man, she does this and this, but she won't do this one thing, and that's this. They like the, the glasses they wear is just the one thing she won't do. And it's a refusal to honor discomfort on a particular thing. This is different, okay? This is a wholesale rejection of you. And this is hard to hold this tension. I can't sit here without having talked to him and say that the rejection of you is somehow malicious or evil or mean.

A (15:25)

I don't think that it is. I think he just doesn't want to, like, he doesn't want to see me because he thinks it's gross. He doesn't want to.

B (15:35)

But the fact that he hasn't been cured, like, let's figure this out together. I think this is going to be gross. Well, let's find out. You get what I'm saying?

C (15:44)

Yep.

B (15:45)

That, that to me is the gap.

A (15:53)

I, I don't know, I don't know where to go.

B (15:57)

So the unhelpful wisdom I have for you is this. You've boxed yourself in, which, with, in this, in this world, which is I will not leave. And I really, really want this part of my life which nobody on earth would blame you for. For wanting to be desired by your spouse. Okay?

A (16:22)

Yeah.

B (16:25)

And so the only path in this box that you've made is to decide. I'm going to let go of resentment because it's solving no problems for me. It's just setting fire to the small cage I've put myself in.

A (16:45)

I don't know how I know.

B (16:49)

I don't. I, I, I, I can walk you through it, but I couldn't do it in a, in a 15 minute phone call.

A (16:54)

No, sure, I can sit here with you.

B (17:10)

Because your, your pain, your hurt is very, very real. The rejection is very, very real.

A (17:18)

Thanks.

B (17:20)

You're not crazy.

A (17:21)

Okay?

B (17:22)

Being told that you're disgusting is, is. I can't, I can't wrap my head around feeling like that. So if physical sexual intimacy is off the table in your marriage, you have two choices. You can stay or you have three choices. You can stay and be miserable and be angry all the time.

A (17:42)

That's what's happening now.

B (17:44)

B, you can leave and you've said, I'm not going to do that.

C (17:47)

Nope.

B (17:49)

Or C, I'm going to stay and I'm going to find out what play and eros and eroticism and joy and laughter looks like in this set of circumstances that I have found myself.

A (18:06)

Okay. How do I do that?

B (18:08)

You got to sit down with a therapist and. And walk through that. It's going to take time.

A (18:12)

Okay.

B (18:16)

And going in the front end with a therapist and saying, I'm not leaving my husband, and everyone tells me to leave him. I'm not going to, period. I want to learn how to grieve well, and I want to learn how to be compassionate at the same time.

C (18:31)

Because.

B (18:31)

Because here's the thing. I'm hearing from your voice that you don't believe him.

A (18:40)

I. I think I've just felt so much resentment for so long that I have had to direct it somewhere. And I. I've. I've known about myself for, you know, since I was a teenager, that this is who I am. And it's something about myself that, like, I Like that I feel this way and that I knew I was going to want to have this as part of my life. And. And I spent most of my teenage years and young adult years looking forward to sharing that with my husband and when I got married, being like, guess what? And so the fact that this, like, piece of myself that I really like about myself is the thing that causes

C (19:20)

all the pain, but it's.

B (19:22)

It's. It's not, though. It's deeper than that. You get what I'm saying? Like, you. You had this picture of what you thought your marriage was going to be, and that page is different, and that picture is different.

C (19:32)

Now.

B (19:32)

You've heard my show. That happens all the time. People who find out they're. They are not going to have kids and they had a picture in their head of 10 kids and people who have lost. People who. Like that happens all the time. And it's painful and it's the worst. And it happens to every married person at some shape, form, or fashion. They had a picture of what they thought things were going to look like, and it's different, but this is different than that. Underneath it all, if in your bones, you don't believe him, then the rejection is an active. He is actively rejecting you. I am choosing my whatever over your. Any like, being with you. Or if you dig all the way down and you realize, oh, my gosh, I believe him because he's amazing in every other way. Then there is the. I'm going to grieve it like crazy. And that energy I have, that ex. That expression that. That power that's inside of me, where else is that going to be channeled? How am I going to make meaning and purpose of this? So, so, so, so much here. And sorry I couldn't just, yeah, wave a magic wand on this one. And sorry I don't have. I don't have a good lived experience here. I haven't had this conversation before. This one's out of my depths. But I would sit down with a therapist and say, I'm not leaving him. I need some path forward because I do think he's a great man who is incapable of giving me this part of my life. And I'm not going to leave him. So I'm going to grieve it and I'm going to realize that my cage is locked from the inside and I'm going to step out of it or I'm going to really get down into my bones and realize I think he's. I think he's doing this to me. And I'm going to act accordingly there, because then it's. Then it's an act of fidelity. It's an act of. Or an act of infidelity. Somebody's willfully withholding and willfully not doing the work they can do to become whole themselves so that we can build something amazing. And this whole thing gets so messy and it's so abused and it's so hard to talk about in a tiny little sliver like this. But I'm really, really grateful for your call. Thank you so, so much, Sarah. Sorry I wasn't much help on this one. We come back, a man asks how to overcome resentment toward his oldest child. Every single day of my life, I talk to people who are anxious and overwhelmed. And one of the things that can send people straight into panic mode is identity theft. When your identity gets stolen, it's not just a financial problem. It is a financial problem, but it's not just a financial problem. It also messes with your sense of safety, of just walking through the world feeling like you're going to be okay. And when that's gone, everything else falls apart. This is why I personally have identity theft protection from Zander insurance. This is not optional for me or my family. It's a foundational aspect of us all being well. 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When you create an account that's T H O r, n e thorne.com the letter u/ Deloney. Go get started being healthy. All right, Brooklyn, New York. Let's talk to Nick. What's up, Nick?

C (25:20)

Hey. Hey, John. Thanks for having me.

B (25:22)

You got it, brother. What's up?

C (25:24)

Not major. Thanks for having me. Wife's a massive fan. Wanted to get into the question, you know, that really brought this. So I've just been seeing a lot recently especially. I mean, it's. It's been going on, I would say a while, but as I'm doing more thinking, you know, I'm just getting to a point where I'm getting very frustrated at my oldest Son. And I could compare it to my second son that I have. My oldest son is almost three. And I think that I lack. There's a part of me that just lacks patience and kindness towards him and thinking and thinking through it. I think that there's a part of me that hasn't like let go of the fact that I'm a parent and I'm not single anymore and I have responsibilities and I think there's a resentment in me somewhere that I can't seem to let go. And I think that triggers a lot of anger and frustration and impatience and comparing it to my second child, I don't feel or get angry or frustrated or lose my patience with my second child. Almost never compared to my first child. My first child is almost three. My second child's a year and four months.

B (26:36)

So what is it about this three year old that sets you off? Man,

C (26:40)

literally everything. Everything. I mean, it's.

B (26:44)

I mean, three year olds will do that. You know why? Because they're three. But, but I guess. How old are you?

C (26:51)

I am 26.

B (26:52)

Okay, so as a 26 year old man, why is, why are your feelings subject to the whims of a three year old?

C (27:04)

Because that's my whole world right now.

B (27:07)

Tell me about that.

C (27:09)

Beside, outside of work, I'm coming home and it's to my wife and kids. And when I wake up, I'm waking up at 6 o' clock to a cranky kid. When I come home, I'm coming to a cranky kid or not, I don't know what I'm coming into. And yes, his tantrums, for example, are not going to set my mood per se, but it's more that yes, 3 year olds aren't supposed to listen, but he could listen and he knows how to listen. And when he looks at me and doesn't listen to me and just laughs, I just get very frustrated. I'm very angry. Not something that I'm proud of.

B (27:45)

No, I'm, I'm, I am, I am balancing. So hear me say this. I'm just gonna be as open as I can. I'm balancing my complete and utter understanding of where you're at.

C (27:58)

Sure.

B (27:58)

Okay. With also my. I am proud of you for being honest. And I'm balancing those two things with my. I want to like grab your head and shake you. Right.

C (28:17)

That's how my wife is sometimes also.

B (28:19)

Okay.

C (28:19)

She's a massive fan.

B (28:21)

Well, sorry on your behalf. Sorry if she bombards you with clips from my show like, you need to do like this Right.

C (28:28)

Yes. We go on, we go on road trips and she's like, we're gonna listen to John Deloney now?

B (28:34)

I'm sorry, the, the.

C (28:43)

I know from a logical perspective. Yeah.

B (28:46)

This has nothing to do with life.

C (28:47)

Makes no sense.

B (28:48)

Let's. No, it makes perfect sense. I guess my, my question for you is, what do you think you're missing out on?

C (28:58)

I think I don't know what I'm missing out on.

B (29:01)

Okay. I'll. I'll tell you right now exactly what you're missing out on. Okay.

C (29:05)

Okay.

B (29:06)

You're missing out on the amazing, extraordinary adventure of a father and his son. You're not missing out on drinks at the bar. You're not missing out on shenanigans with your buddies. You think, you like to think that's when life was free and that's when life was good. But that, that's, that's playing it, as Jimmy Carr says, that's playing at the low stakes table. That's playing the penny slots and thinking you're having fun. And then you moved up to the big kid slots. You moved up, you got off the slots and you moved up to the big kid blackjack table. And now you're in a real game. You get what I'm saying?

C (29:59)

Yeah.

B (30:00)

And in a weird way, it's like I hear you saying, like, you don't deserve this. Like, how dare a three year old disrespect me. And I'm like, bro, he's three. You're putting adult responsibilities and adult ways of seeing the world on a, on a. Basically a raw nerve. You know what I'm saying?

C (30:32)

Yeah. And it's. But it's hard for me.

B (30:37)

I, I know, but I think it's. Is it. Tell me if I'm wrong. Is it frustrating you? Because it's reflecting to you how powerless you actually are to the world you're in now?

C (30:46)

Definitely there's a. Yes, definitely. I am not willing to admit. Or, I mean, consciously I'm able to admit it, but subconsciously there's a blockage that's not allowing this to happen.

B (30:57)

Okay. That blockage is called ego. And it's going to destroy your family unless you go to war against it right now.

C (31:04)

Right.

B (31:05)

Because you're not less of a man when your 3 year old talks back to you. You're not missing out on an extra 30 minutes of sleep when your 6 year old, I mean your 3 year old comes waddling into your room cranky and wants to get in bed with you. You're winning everything. You get what I'm saying?

C (31:29)

Right? So in playing this big boy game, you know, let's say this big boy game of poker, you know, I wake up every day and I'm like, okay, I'm going to be the best father I could possibly be today. And I literally wake up every single morning and I try to think of how the day was yesterday where I could improve and I really think about it as much as I can and try to make improvements. And then just one small thing just like tips my scale. I don't know how to restart my day.

B (32:04)

I've got.

C (32:04)

You must get over it.

B (32:05)

I've got you. Okay, you ready? You're. You're going to be a great father in the rearview mirror. The let me the line. He was a great father. Will be something that your boys say at your funeral if you make that your goal. Every morning you have launched out like that's like saying, I'm going to go bench press £500 this morning. You're setting yourself up to fail.

C (32:36)

Okay.

B (32:37)

Wake up with way, way more actionable habits and goals like this. I'm gonna go love. Well, today I'm gonna go be silly with my three year old boy today. I'm not going to try to give him lessons of discipline and correction. He's three by the way. He's taking his cues of emotional volatility from his dad. He's just mirroring it back to you, which is what makes it so ang. Frustrating. You get what I'm saying?

C (33:22)

Yeah.

B (33:23)

Like waking up every day like, I'm gonna be the best dad in the world, dude. No, no man can live up to that. And here's why. That's a moving finish line. You can never reach that finish line because you always could have made more money, sent him to a better school, been more supportive, shown up at more things like that is. That's what's got our culture into. The mess it's in right now is you're turning being a father into some sort of stage performance.

C (33:53)

Right.

B (33:56)

Be with.

C (33:57)

I guess it does feel like I'm failing the stage performance.

B (33:59)

That's it. And you are. Because it's an impossible. It's. It's never meant to be on a stage. A father, your kid, your kids are going to watch you and your son is going to absorb the tension in your home. And if he feels dad is pissed off at his job, pissed off that he. I'm getting a sense. Was this, was he a planned pregnancy or. No,

C (34:31)

that's a little complicated. No, it wasn't it was planned. Yes. Because wasn't really proper birth control in place and when during my engagement, I didn't really have the. As you. I mean my. I told you, I'm 26, I was young and I didn't really have the words to communicate in a normal and safe, proper tone that I'm not ready to have kids. So we basically. Yeah. Just a result of not using proper protection.

B (34:58)

Okay. For all that is holy, do not make that kid carry the weight of that.

C (35:05)

Correct.

B (35:06)

This isn't his fault. He's not here. He didn't choose to be here. You did.

C (35:11)

Correct.

B (35:12)

Right. And so we're going to honor the bloody hell out of this kid. And I'm going to seek one connection point in the morning. I am going to seek to be the calm presence in my home. I'm going to make peace with my job that I'm working like crazy because then I got two kids and I live in Brooklyn. We don't have any money. When a kid feels peace in their home, they have a chance for their nervous system to be at peace.

C (35:49)

Correct. It's kind of like I'm waiting for the next thing to happen.

B (35:56)

What's what next thing?

C (35:59)

Just the mixantra on the next. The next. Just whatever comes and whatever is going to come out in my three year old's mouth. I'm just waiting for the next thing. What's going to happen now? What?

B (36:12)

Do you realize that the whole. Your whole house is spinning on the top that is your three year old. He can't carry the weight. He's three. Like if his dad is so reactive that he's waiting to see what he does or says next, he can't possibly win that engagement. And here's what will happen. He'll learn quickly that it's his job to make sure dad's not in a bad mood. And he'll either bury himself trying to make you happy or he'll go to war with you. So he can finally be seen in any shape, form or fashion he can be seen in.

C (36:55)

Correct. And I see those two. Two extremes, okay?

B (36:58)

We're going to take all that weight off his bar right now. He's three, man. He's too early to be in the weight room. When he throws a temper tantrum, we're going to get down on eye level with him and we're going to say, hey, bud, I'm right here. As soon as you're done, I'm ready to play with the ball. I'll be in the other room with the ball and you can walk to the other room and flex your muscles and be like, right. But he's not going to see that. And I'm going to begin practicing, not outsourcing my feelings to the performance of a three year old. Here's the thing, it's having compassion with yourself in your instant response and then do the next right thing, which often is. I'm going to back up for a second. If you put this down on paper and read it to your wife face to face, looking her in the eye when you can, and say, I want to practice humility. I want to practice letting my ego go. I want to practice letting this anger go. I need to learn some new skills. Will you be my eye in the sky when I can't see? After she picks her jaw up off the floor, my gut tells me she's gonna hug you big and say, yes, I'm with you. Is that fair?

C (38:25)

Yeah.

B (38:27)

Can I just tell you, man, there's a lot of dads who cash out and you're not one of them. And I'm proud of you.

C (38:32)

Appreciate it, brother.

B (38:34)

Like for real, not just talking. I'm for real.

C (38:38)

Thank you. Appreciate it.

B (38:39)

And if you're able to get a get control of your anger now and get control of your need to inflict power over instead of be with your son. My God, dude, you're setting up a lifelong relationship with your oldest boy that's going to be transformative for you, for him, and for your entire family tree. But that starts with you inside your own chest, not with the actions of a three year old. This is about emotional maturity and strength that comes in the form of humility and exhale and not outsourcing feelings to a kid. I'm proud of you, brother. Call me anytime, man. I'll walk with you on this one. This is, this right here, brother, is how family trees change. We come back, a man asks if he needs to match his girlfriend's sex drive and how to handle the pressure to commit. All right, true story. I was going to lunch with my producer, Kelly, and she got into my truck and she was expecting to hear some kind of punk rock music. And she was surprised to hear a gentle voice reading Jesus's famous sermon on the mount. I looked at her and said, yeah, I don't just advertise for Hollow, I actually use it. Hallow is the number one Christian prayer meditation app in the world for a reason. And it's become one of the most important things I do to start every day. It helps me anchor myself in Prayer helps me slow down and prioritize what matters most to me before the world swallows up all of my time and all of my attention. Hallow gives you space to breathe, reflect, and pray. It's guided, it's simple, and it meets you where you are. To help you anchor your faith, practice with daily reflections, scripture, music, special series, and most importantly, peace. You can try Hallow for free for three months only through my link. Go to hallow.com DeLoney and sign up. Free for three months for free today. That's hallow.com DeLoney for three months for free. All right, let's go out to New York, New York and talk to James. What's up, James?

A (40:44)

Hey.

C (40:45)

How's it going, John?

B (40:45)

I'm good, brother. What's up, man?

C (40:48)

Hey. So basically, my girlfriend, she put basically an ultimatum saying she. She gave me till June 1st to tell me that I plan to marry her. Otherwise, she doesn't want to waste her time, basically.

B (41:04)

How old are you?

C (41:06)

I'm 30. She's 32.

B (41:07)

Okay. Do you want to marry her?

C (41:13)

God, I wish I could have a confident answer. I told her I am on that path and I want to get there, but.

B (41:22)

You're 30. You're 30. How long have you all been together?

C (41:25)

Two years.

B (41:26)

Okay. You know,

C (41:29)

I wish I did.

B (41:30)

Okay, then. Then not knowing. Is that. Is that an answer, too?

C (41:35)

Yeah, that's what I told her. And, like, I respected her for giving me that time frame. Like, you know, that's fair. I don't want to waste your time either. And I love her, and I really. I could see a life with her, but I feel like we're still growing our relationship and you're gonna.

B (41:51)

You're gonna grow your. Dude, I've been married for 23 and a half years. My relationship's growing minute by minute. Still,

C (41:57)

I guess that is like, what. What are you.

B (42:00)

What are you afraid of? Take sex off the table for a second. Where are you all not aligned?

C (42:06)

Yeah, I've thought about that. I'm afraid that our values might not align. She wants to move out of the city in three years. I don't. I'm. I have a big side hustle, passion of music production. I want to be able to focus on that and do that a lot. And being out of the city, I feel like I wouldn't be able to do that. As her first priority is I want to start a family. I want to have kids. I want to live in the suburbs. There's that.

B (42:36)

Do you want to have kids?

C (42:38)

I do.

B (42:42)

So this is going to sound crazy. And I was much younger than you, okay? At 21. I was 21 and my wife was 20. She was my girlfriend at the time we broke up. And here's what my was my reasoning. If all of my dreams come true and all of her dreams come true, we'll end up on opposite sides of the planet, literally.

C (43:03)

Right.

B (43:04)

What I did not have a capacity for was how silly and ridiculous my dreams were in comparison to how great a connected and amazing marriage and kids and that whole other thing was.

C (43:18)

Yeah.

B (43:20)

And I'll tell you this, in a million billion years, I would not have been able to communicate to my 21 year old self or even my 30 year old self. Hang on, brother. The thing you think you want is coming, but it's going to come later than you think it's going to. And now I travel the country and speak and do comedy and laugh and play music. I do all of it. I have the time of my life now and it's a thousand times better because I'm anchored with somebody doing life together. But here's the thing.

C (43:52)

Yeah.

B (43:56)

If that's not where you are right now, that's okay, Let her go. Because what you want is all of it.

C (44:12)

Yeah. That's where I'm conflicted. I'm like, if I'm not at that point yet where I'm ready to, quote, unquote, settle down, like, what if I get there in two years and now regret leaving her? Because that would have worked out, like, I feel like there's a lot of pressure there. I just feel like it's too soon for me to be able to confidently know, like, yeah, I want to spend the rest of my life with her. And like, this is the path I want to take in my life. And I totally get the having a partner to be that wind under your sails as you, you know, reach for your goals. And she's very supportive and I really love her for that. We're not without our squabbles and fights and, you know, I feel like we fight more than the average couple. I'm like, is this, you know, going to get better? Is this worth, you know, if it stays like this, is this worth it for the rest of my life? A lot of questions like that.

B (45:24)

And here's the thing I'm hearing under all of your, of your concerns and questions is what I think is one of the most damaging phrases in the English language. This is just going to be the way this is. And what you're leaving out is you and her get to co create whatever world y' all want.

C (45:50)

Yeah.

B (45:51)

And if she has said, I am not interested in co creating a world with you, I'm interested in marrying somebody who wants to live in my world, I will tell you, y' all should not get married.

C (46:05)

No, she's not said that.

B (46:06)

Okay, if you're saying that I want to marry you, but I want you to live in my world, in this town, with my side hustles, with my passions, my dreams. I would tell her, don't marry this guy.

C (46:25)

Right. Or it's just going to be compromised on both sides.

B (46:30)

And well, compromise is a great, wonderful, beautiful thing. Negotiation is a great important thing. Coercion is not. Nagging is not. Dishonesty is not.

C (46:45)

Yeah, I guess I'm afraid of like letting my dreams die.

B (46:51)

So. So walk with me. How do your dreams die?

C (46:56)

I don't get to do what I do as frequently. I don't get to be around.

B (47:01)

What is it that you do?

C (47:03)

Music production. So producing, mixing, recording.

B (47:05)

Okay, so you live in the burbs. You can't go to town and people won't come out to see you.

C (47:10)

I mean, I could. It was gonna be a lot harder.

B (47:12)

What does that mean?

C (47:13)

And it's gonna take a lot more time. I'm not gonna be able to easily bring clients to my place like I do now going to shows. I'm not in the Mecca.

B (47:28)

Okay. So I'm being provocative here. Okay, so let her go.

C (47:41)

Yeah, right. I'm like, if I let her go, am I going to.

B (47:50)

Yes.

C (47:50)

You will try so hard to find someone better. And like, better that's, that's totally relative and up and everyone's gonna have.

B (47:59)

I know, I get that. I know, I know, I know. I know what you mean. I know what you mean.

C (48:04)

Yeah, but like we're compatible. A thing that comes to my mind a lot is like, she's not a creative. It doesn't have that creative drive. Doesn't have like, you know, any like big passions that she worked towards. Like she has hobbies but like not like something she's working towards. Right.

B (48:19)

Yeah, but you, you've never seen creativity in action until you've seen somebody who says, I want to be a full time mother, that doesn't come with beats and it doesn't come with clients.

C (48:33)

She would be a great mother.

B (48:35)

That's what I'm saying. Like it's, it's. I'm not going to judge the word creativity in just this vein as an artist because I know some incredibly creative plumbers and Some incredibly creative mothers and some incredibly creative coaches.

C (48:48)

Right. That's a good way to look at it.

B (48:53)

And I am maniacally creative all over the place. My wife is creative in ways that are awesome. You know why our bills get paid? Right. Like, she makes sure our lights stay on. It was a shock to me that they wanted to get paid every month for water. Right. And so what some people see for if you're a creative, they see a going all in on a relationship and putting the relationship ahead of my creativity. Like the most important thing to me on planet earth is this marriage.

C (49:32)

Yes.

B (49:33)

What they often miss is that it's not a ball and chain. It is a secure anchor point to now I can jump off even higher heights because I'm connected to something bigger than myself.

C (49:50)

Yeah. And that is hard for me to fathom. But I keep hearing that.

B (49:54)

I know, but listen, that goes in the other way. There are people who get connected and that person is a ball and chain. You're going to live in my world now. You're giving up this stupid music stuff because you got kids.

A (50:07)

Right?

B (50:08)

Right. And so I don't. I don't know that I can't tell you the difference for you. I. I don't know her. I don't know you. I don't know Yalls dynamic. I don't know any of that kind of stuff. I don't know if you're just. If you're scared to commit or. Man, you've had two years and you know, I love this person. And just because I love her doesn't mean she's my forever person.

C (50:30)

God. Yeah. There's so much there. I. I don't. I don't think she's balling chin person. We've worked a lot through that. Maybe at first she was pretty rigid of like, this is what I want our relationship to look like. But lots of trials and tribulations and a part of me is like this relationship supposed to be this much like hard work. Yes, I know. But like all these fights and all these, like, what do you fight about?

B (50:54)

What do you all fight about?

C (50:56)

I feel like I'm the typical dismissive avoidance. She's the gangxious attachment. And I like my space meal to have my autonomy. And she wants, you know, to be able to spend this much time together and do things in the way that she thinks is right. Like we should do this amount of time in this way and when. And she tends to like shut down and get very emotional if I like disagree with her on something. And we've had a lot of work with that, and it has gotten better. Like, you know, a year ago, I would be like, this is. This is too much. But it's gone on the up trajectory. But it's still. It's like almost every week we're having one of these. These kind of these arguments.

B (51:56)

So here's the only way I've seen long term relationships be really successful. Okay. It is so counterintuitive and so countercultural. And the Internet will light me up for saying what I'm about to say. Okay. It is a race to see who can out serve the other.

C (52:19)

Out serve the other.

B (52:21)

And I would, in my world, I would want my wife traveling with me to every show, being on the front row of every live event, I would want that. And that's an extraordinary amount of pressure because on the front row of every show, everybody looks to my wife to see if she's laughing. Is she engaged? Does she think this is funny? And suddenly she's on a secondary spotlight that she never asked for. And so I am racing to serve her in every way possible, which is, I'm always going to say, I would love you to be there. And I am not going to take personally as even though I feel it when she says, I'm going to sit this one up or the kids need to do this or I need to be home for this. Awesome. Because I honor and respect that. And on the other side, she puts on the calendar, I'm going to go to this one and I'm gonna sit through and wade through my discomfort because I know how much it means to him. And it's a dance forever. And the moment we start saying, well, what about me? And what about me? And what about me? Is the moment we start keeping score. And that's the moment this thing starts to fall apart. And if you're not there, that's okay, but choose reality here. What does that mean? Like, in brass tacks for you, can you say out loud, here's what I want. I want to see you as often as I can. But Monday, Wednesday, and Friday are my music nights. And can she hear that? Not as rejection, but as my boyfriend is going to come home so fulfilled creatively and so whole that when I have him, it's going to be laser focused.

C (54:17)

Yeah, we have a lot of discussions about that. And that's gotten better too. She gives me the time space I need to work on my music stuff, and I make sure when I'm done that I spend whatever the free time of the night I have with her.

B (54:35)

Okay, is that time life giving? Is it fulfilling? Does it make you feel whole and able to go tackle the next day even greater? Or is it on a task list of things you need to do along with laundry and everything else?

C (54:49)

It's nice. It's comforting. She is. She's a great comfort to me. And that's where the sex thing comes in, where I'm like, I don't have the energy to do that after this, a night like this.

A (55:05)

But.

B (55:06)

And so what is sex? Sex is a part of it. Okay. But I think there's a much bigger picture here, which is, am I creating a world or will I be interested in creating a world where she and your marriage come first and for her, where you and your marriage come first? And we can put all the things, sex drive differences where we want to live differences, how many kids we want to have. We can navigate those things all through this one singular lens, which is our marriage wins. And that means some of us are going to grieve things that we wanted it to be. And it's not going to be that way, but the marriage is more important than that. And I don't get the sense that y' all are there yet. I'll tell you this. You're going to make a hit record. It's going to happen. You're going to make a hit record, and it's going to go big. Ask yourself, when you're holding this hit record, you want to celebrate with your boys. You want to celebrate with her. That's the question you'd ask yourself. Because if your first thought is, she's going to be my first call,

C (56:27)

then

B (56:27)

the record doesn't matter so much because you found your person. If it's, I got this hit record and I'm going out with the boys tonight, we're going to burn this town down. I'll call her tomorrow. That's a good question. I mean, that's a good answer for you. None of this is easy, brother. Let's think in steps, not in feelings. We'll be right back. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. Financial stress does not just damage our bank accounts. It can also damage our mental and emotional health, and it can really take a toll on our relationships. Money worries cause anxiety, and they're one of the leading sources of conflict for couples. My wife and I struggled with money stress for years, and it definitely had a negative impact on our relationship. Therapy can help, even with money. Therapy is not about financial advice, but it is about helping you build health, healthier ways of coping with money, stress and giving you strategies to communicate about money without always going to war. I want you to check out my friends at Better Help Better Help is an online therapy platform that matches you with a licensed therapist based on your goals and your preferences. Better Help therapists work according to a strict code of conduct and they are fully licensed in the United States. You can message your therapist and schedule sessions right in the platform and if the first therapist isn't the right fit and you can switch at any time for no additional cost. When life feels overwhelming, therapy can help. Visit betterhelp.com DeLoney to get 10% off your first month. That's better help. H E L p.com DeLoney all right, Kelly, something cool happened. What is it?

A (58:03)

All right, this is from Adam in

B (58:05)

Springfield, Virginia, and he writes, On January 31st, my wife and I got our first pregnancy test positive after trying for almost a year. About 10 days later, on February 9th and 10th, my wife was experiencing bleeding

A (58:19)

and stomach pains and it was confirmed by our doctor that she had miscarried.

B (58:23)

I've been watching your show for several

A (58:24)

months and your advice really helped me navigate this with her. We are buying a memorial box and

B (58:28)

we'll write letters to our angel. We have a healing journey ahead of us, but your advice, I think, puts us on the right track.

A (58:34)

Thank you.

B (58:35)

It's awesome. I hate that they're going through that together. Been through that, man. That's the worst. And good for you for heading into the healing. It's awesome. Thank you for that note, brother. And my thoughts are with you and your and your wife. Love you guys. Bye.