Caller 2 (2:19)

And for me personally, I hate that for you.

Dr. John DeLoney (2:23)

What's your family doing about it?

Caller 1 (2:29)

So the person who recently abused didn't actually abuse me, but was abused my sister. And it was at the same time as another family member abused me. And so right now, I mean, there's so much going on. I mean, he's not living with his family.

Dr. John DeLoney (2:53)

Is he going to jail?

Caller 1 (2:56)

He's been reported. It's. It's an under investigation.

Dr. John DeLoney (2:59)

Okay. God, I hate this for everybody.

Caller 1 (3:02)

Yeah, me too.

Dr. John DeLoney (3:07)

So what does healing look like for you?

Caller 1 (3:11)

Well, honestly, I sound stupid to say it out loud. My husband even asked me how come he never went to therapy.

Dr. John DeLoney (3:18)

Well, let me stop there. That's a well meaning question. And I understand what he's asking, but it's not a helpful question.

Caller 1 (3:25)

Yeah.

Dr. John DeLoney (3:26)

Okay. Because the, The. The shrapnel after sexual abuse and if it's happening with family members, happening to multiple people in the same family, my guess is the learned lesson is we don't talk about that here. Is that fair?

Caller 1 (3:46)

Yeah. I mean, my parents don't feel that way. I mean, they were not involved, but they.

Kelly (3:52)

Let's come up.

Caller 1 (3:53)

They don't feel like they silenced anyone.

Kelly (3:55)

But.

Dr. John DeLoney (3:55)

Well, but here's the thing. If you as a kid knew, whether explicitly or implicitly, they're not who I can go to about that, that. That actually is trauma. It's a child separated. Like the act of what happened to you, the thing that happened is a traumatic event. But a child unanchored, knowing a bad thing just happened and I'm not safe to go to my parents. It doesn't matter if they. Again, I'm not blaming them. I'm just giving you. I want to give you some peace that in. The kids can go through hell and back if they don't have to go through it alone. But if a kid knows I'm on my own when this bad thing happened to me, that the trauma started long before the actual traumatic event. You get what I'm saying?

Caller 1 (4:47)

Yeah. And I guess I felt like. Not that I couldn't tell them, but that I was. I mean, I remember I was very young, but I felt like, you know, I was complicit.

Dr. John DeLoney (4:57)

Exactly. Yes, exactly. Which is. I mean, that's a whole other conversation. But that brings me back to my next question. Like, my original question is, what does healing look like now? Because forget the sex inside your marriage right now. Right. That's important. We'll get to that. But now that, you know, this thing has reemerged, that fire has been relit like that. Your body's on high alert again. It's running this script that it knows. What's the next right move for you?

Caller 1 (5:31)

I got in touch with a therapist that I like. I just haven't been consistent in going because life is crazy. And I feel like I don't have.

Dr. John DeLoney (5:42)

A lot of support for people that.

Caller 1 (5:44)

Can help me out with the Kids. So I can do that.

Dr. John DeLoney (5:47)

Okay. Whatever that looks like. I want to tell you that you're worth that work. Okay.

Kelly (5:56)

Okay.

Dr. John DeLoney (5:56)

And it's super not fun.

Caller 1 (5:59)

Yeah.

Dr. John DeLoney (6:00)

You know what I mean?

Caller 2 (6:01)

Yeah.

Caller 1 (6:01)

I guess I'm kind of feel overwhelmed because I don't really know.

Kelly (6:05)

I don't know the.

Caller 1 (6:07)

I just want to get through it and I know I have to just.

Kelly (6:10)

Do the work, but.

Dr. John DeLoney (6:11)

Well, but there's the work you have to do. But here's where your husband can play a humongous life saving role for you is painting a picture of. I'm going to go through this trauma healing and I'm going to go through learning some skills that when my body starts to flood itself and starts to try to protect me even without me knowing it, I'm going to learn these skills on how to. It's all kind of stuff that you'll learn how to do. Right. It's movement and breathing, all that kind of stuff that's important. And then we're going to go through the trauma narrative with a therapist and here's what support looks like for me. It means some days I'm going to come home and I'm going to wink at you. I'm going to text you a certain emoji and that means I'm unhooked for the day. Like my wife just had minor surgery. I knew I've got pickup that afternoon with the kids. I've got dinner that afternoon. I've got. I've like I'm on now. Right. And it's very similar for you. And so that overwhelmed feeling, those are the, the feeling is big and it's huge and it's real and it's right. But the things you can control there are. All right, I need to pass along some things, some of this weight. And you said till death do us part. Going to. I need you to carry some of the practical things. Diaper changes, dinners, dealing with the kids, all that kind of stuff over the next two, three, four, six months. Especially when I text you and say, I need some help today. And then hopefully he is right or die. And he's like, I got it. You get what I'm saying? It's not a matter of you going to a one or two or three hour therapy session. You come home and it's all good. That's not how this will work.

Kelly (8:02)

Right.

Dr. John DeLoney (8:06)

Is he a kind of guy that if y' all sit down and say, okay, I'm about to go do this hard thing for the next little while, I need you to step in for me. Would he step up for you?

Caller 1 (8:16)

I think he feels really overwhelmed with life himself. So he doesn't feel like he's at a place where he can shoulder more things. He's tired and, you know, he tells me he's lonely because everything going on.

Kelly (8:28)

With the kids and yeah.

Dr. John DeLoney (8:33)

Sometimes setting overwhelmed is often a. I don't have a role or a purpose here or I don't know, the next. Right. Few things to do. And as the dad of couple young kids, I don't have a lot of sympathy for. I'm tired. All of us are tired. But I do have sympathy for. I don't know how I can help. I don't know what to do. And that's where y' all looking at each other across the table saying, I'm about to go do a really hard thing for a season. And here's specifically what help looks like. Are you a stay at home mom or do you work too?

Caller 1 (9:13)

No, I'm able to be a stay at home mom.

Dr. John DeLoney (9:15)

Okay, awesome. So it would be a matter of like. And I know in the media it's really cool to bash guys who don't know what's going on at home. That's not helpful at all. But you being able to say, here's what day in and day out, here's what this looks like. So when you walk in the door, I know you're tired and here's what the next right thing for you to help me with looks like for this season. And he might say, I'm overwhelmed, I'm tired, but whatever, yada, yada, yada. But giving somebody a task list sounds not sexy and it sounds not engaged and it sounds like I shouldn't be having to do this. What all those things that the media tells you, this is why men are awful. Whatever. You giving him that gift, that path. Yes. He'll be tired. You'll be tired too. Everybody's going to be tired. Yeah, but this is the actually the path back to what both of you want, which is reconnection and healing, Right?

Caller 1 (10:06)

Yes.

Dr. John DeLoney (10:09)

Otherwise he's like, I miss my wife. I want some more sex. And you're like, dude, I'm exhausted. I'm covered in throw up. I got a one year old. Oh, and by the way, my body is screaming at me that we're not safe. Right?

Kelly (10:20)

Exactly.

Caller 1 (10:20)

Yes.

Dr. John DeLoney (10:21)

And so you begrudgingly make out with him. He doesn't like that. And he then he begins to say, I want you to want me. And you're like, dude, I would love to Want you. But the kids need to eat, and we got baths and we have bedtime.

Caller 2 (10:33)

Right.

Dr. John DeLoney (10:34)

You know? You know what I'm saying?

Kelly (10:34)

Yep.

Caller 1 (10:35)

Absolutely. That sounds like the conversation we had yesterday.

Dr. John DeLoney (10:39)

Okay, so it is saying, hey, we'll both get to where we want to be, but we have to clear the debt completely first. And that requires us both to be adults and get over the. I'm tired. Everybody's tired. Does he work hard for. For. For y' all and the family?

Caller 1 (10:57)

Yes, he does.

Dr. John DeLoney (10:58)

Amazing. That's awesome. That brings me joy. Like, I'm. I'm happy. It sounds like he's a good man. And do you feel guilty when he comes home and does some of the chores?

Caller 1 (11:11)

No.

Dr. John DeLoney (11:12)

Okay. All right. I. I talk to a lot of. Especially moms of young kids who are stay at home moms. And when husband comes home, it. It's like, it's your turn now. You take the kids. I've been with them all day. Let me completely shut off. And then when they start to do some of those things, it's that. That guilt creeps in. Like, well, I've been here all day. This is actually my job, and I don't want him to do this. Or I kind of want to hold the baby. I like that part of it. Or it just. Everyone's going to have to clear the deck and say, I feel these things. Okay, cool. Here's what actually has to happen for this house to operate for a season so that I can get. So that we can get what we both want, which is to reconnect with each other.

Caller 1 (11:57)

Okay.

Dr. John DeLoney (11:58)

Do you get what I'm saying?

Caller 1 (12:00)

Yeah, absolutely. So can I ask you a question so.

Kelly (12:10)

That.

Caller 1 (12:11)

That makes perfect sense in the interim, while healing is happening?

Kelly (12:16)

I'm.

Caller 1 (12:16)

Honestly, I'm fine with us having sex. I don't feel, you know, that doesn't light my body on fire or anything.

Dr. John DeLoney (12:27)

Sure.

Caller 1 (12:27)

But there are specific things that my husband really wants and that I have recently drawn the boundary, just like, you know, four months ago, and said, I don't want to do this at all anymore.

Dr. John DeLoney (12:43)

Okay.

Caller 1 (12:44)

And that has made him feel super, you know, unloved and alone in this. And I don't know if I should be listening to that voice telling me, hey, don't do this, or if I should be, you know, trying to fight that because I love my husband. And I. It's not that I don't want to be intimate with him.

Dr. John DeLoney (13:08)

Sure. I think it's. I think it's a. If he. If. If he's saying, like, I Want to bring the neighbor over and you're like, that goes against my values. I'm out on that. No, no, I know I'm being silly, but also, you've listened to this show. It's sometimes not silly. Right? So, like, if it is, if it's something that is outside of my value set, I want to have that hard conversation. If it's something that is painful or uncomfortable, I want to have that convert. That's a separate conversation, right?

Caller 1 (13:38)

Sure.

Dr. John DeLoney (13:39)

If it is something that makes me feel gross or used or not myself, if it's along those lines, I want to go to the deeper layer, which is, what is it about this act? What is it about you, who you become when you're doing this thing with me or to me? Like, it's getting to that thing beneath the thing. Or if it's as, it's as I say, as simple. But it's not simple. Right. So I don't want to belittle it anyway. But it's as simple as this thing you're super into is the exact thing that my abuser did to me. And right now I'm super uncomfortable with it. Or there's any number of things. So it's, it's not like there is things in marriage. Like, I'm not super into this. I know she is. I know he is. I'm like, I, I'm. It's an act of kindness, it's an act of giving. I don't know the word for it. I'm trying to think of a clever word for it. But like, I don't say take one for the team. But it's kind of like that. Like, I'm not into this. But if you are that conversation party. Right? But if it becomes uncomfortable, painful, if it becomes I feel this way, then putting that on the table. Because what happens is the act itself. I want to do this thing to you or with you. It's addressing that with curiosity, not judgment. But you being honest about what the needs in the house. There are some real needs. Food, diapers, babies screaming. All that stuff is real and good. And being honest about. Here's what I want. When I go to sleep, I, I, I've got to be able to sleep. I want to be intimate with you. I want to have sex with you. And we used to be able to just wake up at 2am and just get it going and then be back to roll over and go back to sleep. That season. Right now it's winter. I used to be super into this particular sex act. Right now it doesn't feel good to me. I'm not going to say never again, but I'm just saying right now, I'm not super into that. Walk me through what you feel like underneath that, and then let's see if we can get to it another way. But it's just sitting down and having those conversations. And I promise you, if y' all both show up with curiosity about those conversations, those can be some of the most intimate, magical, sexy, fun conversations you've ever had. You get to know each other at a level you thought you knew each other. Nah, man. You get to really know each other. And anyway, most of the time, men say, I just want. I do want sex. I want sex. I want sex. But I want her to want me, and I want her to desire me. And I feel like she desires the kids more. The. The routine more, the this more. And so it is saying, okay, what do we need to do so that we can get to what we want to do? And everybody's tired, everybody's busy, everybody's working hard, everybody's frustrated. And on top of that, you have a trauma history you got to work through. We have to be extra clear. And the word, the dominating word here is just kind. There's just gonna be days you text him and be like, tonight's gonna be the night. And by the time he gets home, your body's on fire, you're worn out, the kids have been screaming, and kindness means, all right, sweet, dude. Let's just get under a blanket and watch TV together. I'll hold you. Awesome. And there's gonna be some nights that you wake up at 2am and you're like, I'm gonna wake him up. We're gonna party for 39 seconds, and then we're both gonna go back to bed. Cool. It's just being kind, right? Let that be the dominating word here. But thanks for the call, sister. You got a lot of work to do ahead of you. I would recommend write all this stuff down and y' all can have this conversation. What do we need to do? And then let's get to what do we want to do? Thank you so much for the call, sister. We'll be thinking about you a lot. I hate this for your family that y' all are going through this trauma stuff, and I hope that guy goes to jail. We come back, a woman asks how to move forward after a son in law checked out of his marriage. All right, you know that I've been talking about my love for poncho shirts for years. And if you've seen me on stages around town or across the country or just hanging out at a restaurant here in Nashville, you've probably seen me wearing poncho shirts. And here's what's rad now I'm starting to see y' all wearing poncho shirts. Members of my audience, friends at church, even my co workers, everybody I know is starting to wear poncho shirts or hit me up for free poncho shirts. Why? Because they're the best men's performance shirts anywhere. And listen, they're flannels and corduroys. They're amazing and they always sell out this time of year. So if you want to get them, get on them now. And if you're into their denims, oh man, I am too. Poncho denims have that soft, broken in feel with little stretch, like you've worn it a million times, but it still looks and feels amazing. Flannels, denims, corduroys, they have your performance shirts. They come in all kinds of styles. 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No matter if you just met someone or if you've been married forever like me, therapy can help you find your way, what you want, what feels heavy, and how you can take some of the pressure off yourself and build a stronger relationship. Whether for individuals or couples, therapy is an opportunity to identify what's getting in the way and help remove any blockers. And for all of this, I recommend BetterHelp. BetterHelp is an online therapy platform that matches you with the licensed therapist based on your goals and preferences. You can message your therapist and schedule sessions through the platform, and if the first therapist isn't the right fit, you can switch anytime at no additional cost. When it comes to love and relationships, everyone is still finding their way. Find Yours and visit betterhelp.com DeLoney to get 10% off your first month. That's better. Help h lp.com DeLoney all right, we are back. Let's go to Philadelphia, Pennsylvania and talk to Ann. Hey, and what's up?

Caller 2 (20:29)

Hey, thank you so much for taking my call, John.

Dr. John DeLoney (20:33)

Of course. Thanks for calling in. How can I, how can I help?

Caller 2 (20:36)

Well, speaking of trauma, my son in law exposed that he never had gotten over the trauma of his mother passing as a teenager and he was in having some infidelity issues and wasn't clear with that. I guess during what he said he tried three years in marriage counseling and just decided after five, almost six years of marriage he didn't want to make it work anymore. More with my daughter. He was like a son to me. And for about a year now we haven't had any, you know, we haven't seen him. He never came to the home. He just wrote a letter and it's just been hard moving forward.

Dr. John DeLoney (21:40)

I'm so sorry. So has he officially divorced your daughter?

Caller 2 (21:45)

The official date should be coming up in the new year. Okay. She moved away to get a fresh start. But yeah. And they were both strong. What we thought. Beautifully ceremonial.

Dr. John DeLoney (22:06)

Yeah.

Caller 2 (22:07)

So like you know, they were strong believers as what we saw and had good background. So we saw it and they were doing great. It looked on the outside. So it's just been really. It's been hard.

Dr. John DeLoney (22:24)

Yeah. Let me say this, and this might sound like a bold statement, but I, I hear in some of your question that you're feeling a little bit crazy. So let me say this. Losing somebody that's important to you is devastating, is not an excuse for infidelity. Him losing his mom as a teenager is life altering. Everything in his life is different after his mom passes away. And that's not an excuse for that's why I cheated on your daughter, on my wife. So you're not crazy. And there's few things that feel more crazy. We have a psychology for when somebody stabs us in the back. Right. It feels awful and it changes our life and all that. But we understand that intellectually most of us don't have a psychology for somebody that we thought we knew and that we trusted with our most precious thing, our kids. We don't have a psychology for when somebody stabs us in the face. And so you're right to feel disoriented and crazy. I thought I knew this guy. I treated him like a son. Because underneath your statements of I treated him, well, I loved him, I welcome him to the family. Is a question you're asking yourself is what did I not do? And I want to tell you nothing. He chose repeatedly to cheat on your daughter and he chose repeatedly and finally to leave your daughter high and dry, to leave his marriage. And so on this side of the ledger, I want to applaud you for being a great mother in law. I want to applaud you for being somebody who loved him and cared for him. I want to give you permission to be really, really pissed off at him and really, really heartbroken.

Caller 2 (24:31)

How is it that I can help not bring that into the relationship with my daughter and help her heal? Because the more I ask questions, the more I feel I'm heaping coals on her head. I want to bring restoration for her. Right? Right.

Dr. John DeLoney (25:02)

Yeah. I'm a parent of a 15 year old boy, 15 year old son becoming a young man. And I am the father of a nine year old about to be ten year old daughter. And I'm just now, I've known this intellectually for years. I'm just now metabolizing this, it's just now becoming real to me. And that is I can't take away my kids hurt, I can sit with them, but I can't take away pain like she's feeling right now. And I don't know a more powerless feeling as a parent than knowing your kid is hurting and knowing I can't take that away. And one of the, one of the things that I've had to learn as a parent of young kids that you're having to learn as the parent of adult kids is the more I try to take away true hurt, the more I'm teaching them and telling them, I don't think you are strong enough. I don't think you can handle life. And so kids respond in one of two ways. Young kids and grown up kids respond to that sort of implicit message, you're not strong enough for this. In one of two ways, they push you away and they say, I sure can or I'm going to figure it on my own or they over enmesh, they move back in, you solve all of their problems, you pick up all their bills and they get the message loud and clear, I'm not strong enough to handle life.

Caller 2 (26:47)

Right.

Dr. John DeLoney (26:47)

And so the balancing act for you is to say, how can I love you right now and trust your daughter to tell you what she is, what she desires to tell you and you commit to checking up on her. And if she says, mom, I want you to keep asking me questions even when I don't want to, don't feel like answering them, then you keep asking questions. And if she says, mom, these questions are too heavy for me right now, then say, cool, I won't ask any more questions. And if she says, I don't really know how you can help, then be. Be very specific. I'm going to call you once a week, twice a week. I'm going to show up once a month to have coffee with you. And if you don't want to go or don't feel like you can go, then you just simply text me or call me and say, mom, not this week. And you'll say, okay, great. And you might hang up the phone and sob. But what you're teaching her is I'm right here. And also I trust you. And few things are more powerful for a kid, whether they're 25, 35 or 10. Right. Which is, I'm right here and I'm thinking of my daughter. Somebody said something on a playground to you about your appearance or about whatever I can't take away that hurt. I'll hold you though. Right. Somebody is going to break my son's heart. I know it. And the thought of that happening already enrages me. I want to go fight that. That girl's dad right now, and she doesn't even exist yet. Right. But that communicates to him. I think you're weak.

Caller 2 (28:46)

Luckily, in our situation, my daughter. Daughter's very open and she's coming back on a regular basis, although she's a plane ride away.

Dr. John DeLoney (28:58)

Yeah.

Caller 2 (28:59)

Luckily it's, you know, been okay. But it's more my asking the permission, I think, to ask questions, to trust your judgment and. Yeah.

Dr. John DeLoney (29:20)

And let me give you two guiding principles here. Okay. And this is hard. Like, what I'm going to tell you is hard. I'm just going to tell you I think this is the right path. The first one is use the word roadmap. Will you give me a roadmap for how I can love you? And she'll say, what do you mean, Mom? Say, I would love to sit here and just talk bad about him because he's the worst. He hurt my daughter. But if that's not helpful, I won't do that. I. I have a. I have a close friend of mine whose wife died of cancer recently, and he's one of the most religious, spiritual men I've ever met in my life. He's like a North star for how I wish I was okay. He's an amazing Man. And when we were talking right after the funeral, I called him. We were talking and he was saying a bunch of. I couldn't believe how present he was. And I said, have you just started cursing and screaming to the heavens yet? And he sm. I could hear him smile over the phone. He started laughing because he's like, I, that's my friend Deloney. Delon's going to go in swinging and punching people before I even ask him to. And he's. And he gave me a very thoughtful, kind, loving, spiritual answer. And I said, well, I'm gonna scream and curse the sky for you. How about that? And he started laughing. And he goes, I'm glad. Thank you. Right. But if he had said, I actually what I want you to do is go love your wife insanely well for the next month for me, I would have done that. So that's number one. Okay. Give me a roadmap for how I can love you and I'm your mama. So I want to burn everybody to the ground who ever hurt you. And if that's not helpful, I won't do that. Or if you need somebody just to talk bad about him, I'll happily do that right here. And here's part two to that. I'm going to sound like I'm talking out of both sides of my mouth. And this may not happen. It probably won't happen, but this guy is going to wander around in the desert for a while, and at some point, he may realize what he has lost, what he threw away. And I always tell people to be very careful about talking bad about somebody, an ex, when somebody finds out, you know, if. If one of my close buddies, he called me and said his wife cheated on him. And I just started rattling off. I knew she's always been like this. And she. And she. And she. They may get back together one day. And he can never unhear the things I said about his wife.

Kelly (32:09)

Right.

Caller 1 (32:09)

Exactly.

Dr. John DeLoney (32:10)

And so I don't talk bad about her. I spend most of my time saying, how can. How are you, man? I hate this for you.

Caller 2 (32:18)

Yeah.

Dr. John DeLoney (32:19)

And I don't ever want to say something that can't be unsaid. Now, occasionally, I was talking to a buddy the other day, and I said, hey, what your romantic partner is doing is cruel. It's mean. And I knew I'm taking a risk when I said that. I knew that. But it would. It would have been dishonest for me not to say that. Right. And he can't unhear that. He cannot unhear what I said. And I took a risk with that one. I take that risk very sparingly.

Kelly (32:46)

Right.

Dr. John DeLoney (32:51)

And so if you. If you start badmouthing this guy and run him down. I always knew he was bad. He's the worst, and he shouldn't have. She may call you in a year and say, hey, we started talking again. And now she knows what my mama said about my. My guy. Right. And so it's just a. It's just a delicate balance, a lot of which can be solved with. I want a road map for how I can best love you. And can I tell you something pretty awesome? Ann, you said she's flown home and just to come crash at Yalls house. Can I tell you what an amazing thing that is? That tells me you've created a world where Yalls home, your home, is home based for her. It's safe. You're a safe person for her.

Caller 2 (33:38)

Oh, definitely.

Dr. John DeLoney (33:39)

Can I just applaud you and say, well done, mom.

Caller 2 (33:42)

Well, I'm just excited that all the traditions that were so dear to her heart are still there.

Dr. John DeLoney (33:50)

Yes, ma'. Am. No, no, no, no, no, no. You're. You're passing it off, though. I want you to internalize what I'm saying. Are you married?

Caller 2 (34:00)

Oh, yeah. Yep. A long. A long 40 years.

Dr. John DeLoney (34:05)

Gross.

Kelly (34:06)

Okay, so listen.

Dr. John DeLoney (34:10)

What that tells me is, yes, y' all created traditions and, yes, y' all created stability. Yeah.

Caller 1 (34:15)

Yeah.

Dr. John DeLoney (34:16)

But that also tells me that you and your husband created a world where your kids knew, no matter what happens, you can come home. Thank you and God bless you, dude.

Caller 2 (34:31)

Right?

Dr. John DeLoney (34:33)

You can't take away her hurt. You can't take away the fact that she put her heart out on the line and said, till death do us part, and she married somebody who stomped all over it.

Caller 1 (34:43)

That's pretty much how I feel.

Dr. John DeLoney (34:46)

Like you should. And you should be. You should take some time to be really sad. Can I. Can I give you an exercise to do? Sure, if you haven't already. I want you to write that man a letter. Do not mail it.

Caller 1 (34:57)

Yeah.

Dr. John DeLoney (34:58)

But I want you to get that stuff out of your body onto paper. Here's what you did to my daughter. Here's what you did to the love me and my husband showed you. We took you in like a son, and you crushed my daughter's heart. How dare you? Because you sound so kind. That anger feels like you might have. You might have thought. Anger is a not nice emotion. I want you to tell you, anger is a great, powerful, wonderful, loving emotion. It simply directs you towards something that you care about. That is. That should not be. Anger is good. But if you hold it in, anger, over time becomes rage. And it either will kill you. Literally, it'll kill you. It'll shorten your lifespan. It'll give you a heart attack. If you stroke, it will beat your body up from the inside out, or it will just erupt somewhere. And so take the time to be right in your anger. Write it down. If you want to be a gangster, write it down. Your husband, write it down. And y' all read your letters to each other so you both don't feel like you're crazy. And your husband, his eyebrows may go up. Whoa. I didn't know that was in you, Anne. Or he may write down on a piece of paper if I see you again, young man. Right? Like. Well, like what I would write if somebody hurt my daughter. Like that. Right? So. But y' all share that together. That's just called grief, man. Grief. It's hard. It's awful. But I. Man, it is an honor to get to talk to. I don't want to call you an aging parent, but you're an adult aging parent who has adult kids. And your adult kids know, when my world blew up, I could go talk to my mom. It's amazing. And you want to love her. Well, right now, so let her trust her as an adult. Say, I trust you to give me a roadmap of how I can love you right now. And if she says, I just don't know, mom, say, okay, here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to call you once a week. I'm going to come visit you once every month, once a month or whatever. And you tell me to stop, and I will stop. But I just want to be there for you. And don't use her to heal your hurt. That's your job. You and your husband, y' all work through that on your own. But, man, you've done a great job with your sweet girl. And thank you for loving her husband. Well. And we don't have a psychology for when somebody we care about that we. We've invited in stabs us right in the face. And when that happens, we just have to have grief. We have to be sad. Thanks for call, sister. It's been an honor to talk to you. When we come back, a woman asks what boundaries to set up with her husband besides divorce or just withholding sex. We'll be right back. Hey, if you come over to my house sometime, you're gonna find one main theme. My family loves cozy earth Their sheets, pajamas, blankets, towels. They've taken over our house. Why? Because Cozy Earth's linens are incredible. They're so comfortable, they last. Take the towels for instance. When you wash the towels a couple of times, they don't turn into old rags. They stay amazing towels. And getting into my bed with Cozy Earth sheets just lights up my night. And all the towels, all the sheets, all of it. Cozy Earth offers a hundred night trial and a 10 year warranty. So there's no risk to fill your house with Cozy Earth stuff too. Try them for yourself. Go to cozyearth.com DeLoney and use code DeLoney and you'll save up to 20 off your entire order off everything that's Cozy Earth. C o z y cozyearth.com DeLoney with code DeLoney Trust me, bring Cozy Earth into your home. Everyone there is gonna love it. All right, we are back. Hey, hit the subscribe button. If you're watching this on YouTube, log in real quick. Hit the subscribe button. I have some audacious goals for 2026, and every time somebody hits the subscribe button, it helps all of us out. So it doesn't cost you anything. It takes two seconds. Log in and do it. Or if you're listening to this on Spotify or on Apple podcast, take a second to subscribe to the show. And just from the bottom of my heart, thank you. Thank you. Let's go to Salt Lake City, Utah and talk to Marimera. What's up, Mary?

Kelly (39:26)

Hi, how are you?

Dr. John DeLoney (39:27)

I'm great. How are you?

Kelly (39:30)

I'm really nervous. I always hear people say that, but this is wild.

Dr. John DeLoney (39:34)

No, I know, it's surreal. Like that little voice that's been in your headphones for a long time. Now we're on the phone, so I'm glad that you called. Yeah, I'm glad you called. What's up?

Kelly (39:42)

Thanks. So I just, I mean, my question that I sent in was like, you talk all the time about like the or what statements. And I feel like I don't have any or. I feel like the or what statements are always in like these huge situations. Like somebody's blown up their whole marriage and it's like either you change or like I'm out, like it's divorced and I don't, I don't. That's not the point that I'm at. But there are things that I feel like I need to be different or that will be where I get to.

Dr. John DeLoney (40:20)

And can I applaud you for that? Like, that's awesome. That's a level of self reflection. Like I see this now, but I also see where we're heading and I want to stop this now before we are just sitting around in a burned down house sifting through ash. Good on you, Mary.

Kelly (40:37)

Yeah.

Dr. John DeLoney (40:37)

All right, so what's going on? What's going on in your house?

Kelly (40:40)

So I, the, the big thing and something that I mentioned in my, you know, call or whatever submission was video game or computer games. I guess it is. And there are, that's like a thing for sure. But there are definitely other things. Not big, just like death by a thousand cuts type of situation where it's just like I, the way that we both say we want our lives to look is not the way that we're doing things. So there's like a dissonance between like what we say we want and I'm saying we. It's, I see this in him that he says he wants things but then the way he lives his life. I'm like, you're not showing that you want those things.

Dr. John DeLoney (41:34)

Right?

Caller 2 (41:34)

Right.

Kelly (41:35)

Your behavior is the language.

Dr. John DeLoney (41:36)

There we go.

Kelly (41:37)

Those are not the things. I mean, maybe you want them like in a I want to want them kind of way, but like I don't see the effort into like changing and doing the things that we've talked about are important for our family or whatever. So that's, the games are a big one. Because what I want to say is like that's not attractive to me when I know you've been like sitting around all night playing games. It's like I, I, like, I don't know what to say like, or what then like, if you don't like, get it together, what are the games?

Dr. John DeLoney (42:16)

What do the games symbolize? Because I, I, I, I recently had an interview with Dr. K and I, I've always thought video games were a certain thing. Right. A lot of the guys that work on my show are gamers. Like I've always thought games were. I fill in the blank for all kinds of derogatory statements I can make. Right?

Kelly (42:35)

Yeah.

Dr. John DeLoney (42:35)

And yeah, I've got some amazing, hard working, awesome guys on my show that play games and Dr. K talked to me, but like I've always thought they were just a way to numb out. I was wrong. People play games the same way I go to the woods and hunt. Right. So it's like. Or the same way I go play music or whatever, so. Or go to the comedy club, like it. So I don't want to demonize that, but it sounds like the games represent something to you?

Kelly (43:04)

Yeah. And I think to me. So I've examined this a lot because I feel like this could be a situation where I'm, like, putting myself above other people, because I try and tell myself, like, in my mind, like, what's the difference between him playing a game and me, like, watching a movie or something? Right. Because that's kind of like my listening. Listening to podcasts or, like, watching a sh. I don't watch a lot of tv, but, like, movies were kind of my thing.

Dr. John DeLoney (43:30)

Sure.

Kelly (43:31)

So, like, what's the difference between that. What's the difference between the way that I, quote, unquote, waste time and the way that he chooses to waste time? The thing. One of the things for me is, like, you know, you say, go hunting. I'm like, well, you're outside. You're in nature. Like, you're moving your body. Like, there are. To me, there's, like, a hierarchy of, like, time wasting or, like, hobbies or whatever you want to call it. Hobbies. I would say maybe. And I see in myself, and I've known this and I've expressed this, but, like, to me, playing games is, like, it's. It's like the perfect setup to feel good. And, like, you're accomplishing something without actually accomplishing.

Dr. John DeLoney (44:15)

Doing anything.

Kelly (44:15)

Yeah, anything. Bettering yourself, bettering the world around you. Like, it's just like a total on the bottom of the totem, pol. And I don't know, you're allowed to.

Dr. John DeLoney (44:26)

Be attracted to whatever you're attracted to.

Kelly (44:28)

Yeah.

Dr. John DeLoney (44:28)

And so if your husband's playing video games because he works his butt off for your family, and it's his way, he connects with his buddies from college and yada, yada, great. And in the same way, you don't watch movies every single night of the week because there's a life going on, and y' all are adults. I don't hunt every day of the week. Right. And so some of that would be you just getting over it. Right. Like, I don't get it, but he's into it. Funny. It sounds like, though, he's using video games as a way to opt out of participating in the life of your family.

Kelly (45:01)

That's. Yeah, that's exactly right. And it's. And he. He knows that if we can get down to, like, not fighting about it, and for me to ask, like, is. Is this, like. I just want you to be honest. Like, is this, like, does it make you happier? Does it, like, fulfill you? And he's. If he's honest about it, he's like, No, I know that this is not the ideal life that I could be living. And so for me, it's just so hard because I'm like, then just change, then just don't do it. I kind of. I don't know. Or like, choose something else to do. But, like, I. There are, there's a lot that goes into this, but I feel like from his childhood, like, he just like, I'll ask him, like, what do you want, like, put away, put aside, like, any of the, like, work it would take or the money it would cost, like, put anything inside. Like, if you could just, like, dream, like, what would you be doing? What do you want? He, like, can't even, can't even answer that question because I feel like he doesn't feel like he could do it. So he, like, doesn't even allow himself to.

Dr. John DeLoney (46:30)

Okay, that's, that's my next question to you as his wife.

Kelly (46:33)

Like, look out and dream.

Dr. John DeLoney (46:34)

Okay, but this is a hard question I'm gonna ask you, okay? And he's not on the phone with me, so I'm gonna ask you this.

Kelly (46:40)

Yeah.

Dr. John DeLoney (46:42)

Where do you celebrate him? Or let me ask you a different question. Where can he win in your house? Do you all have kids?

Kelly (46:55)

We do, yeah.

Dr. John DeLoney (46:56)

How old are they?

Kelly (46:58)

We have a nine month old and a three year old.

Dr. John DeLoney (47:01)

Okay. So number one, I can almost guarantee you he is living in a failure factory because he doesn't know how little kids work. And it's easy to say, man, if you put the time in on learning how these kids work as you do on playing Fortnite, it's easy to do that. And I get it. But if you can be honest, and I'm throwing stuff up against a wall, I may not be accurate. Okay? But if he has gotten the message either implicitly or explicitly, I don't do the bottles right. I don't put the diapers on right. I don't do bedtime in the right order in the right way. I don't even know how to wash these bottles. I tried to wash them once and you came in, we're like, that's not how you do. Then the message he has is, I don't need you here.

Kelly (47:51)

Yeah, I, I don't think we fit. I know. I'm not like that.

Dr. John DeLoney (47:59)

Okay.

Kelly (48:00)

In this area, like with kids in our home, if he does anything, it's like, thanks for doing that. I don't give a crap how the towels are folded.

Dr. John DeLoney (48:08)

Sure.

Kelly (48:09)

I don't care how you like. He's, he's. He works from Home. And I kind of. I have a job that allows me to be home more than, like, full time, you know, so we're so, like. He takes on a decent amount of the childcare things. Like, we switch off nights with bedtime and those things. I'm like, I don't care if you do two books and three songs, and I do three songs, you know, Like, I don't care.

Dr. John DeLoney (48:39)

Okay, perfect.

Kelly (48:39)

So for those things, I am not, like, the, you know, maybe trope of, like, the. You don't do anything. Right.

Dr. John DeLoney (48:46)

Sure.

Kelly (48:46)

It's more in, like, the bigger theme of just, like, I would love to cheer him on in anything that he tried to do.

Dr. John DeLoney (48:56)

Yeah.

Kelly (48:57)

But, like, he. He doesn't, like. I don't know how to, like, pump him up for, like, having a job, because, like, that's a normal adult thing to, like, have a job. And it's not that I'm, like, trying to make him feel stupid that that's all he's doing, but I just, like. I don't know how to, like, make somebody feel like the coolest person alive for, like, having a job, because, like, we all have a job. I don't know. It's like, I guess.

Dr. John DeLoney (49:28)

Yeah. But I've got. I've got a whole team here that works on this show with me, and they all get paid.

Kelly (49:35)

Yeah.

Dr. John DeLoney (49:35)

And they all do their job really well.

Kelly (49:38)

Yeah.

Dr. John DeLoney (49:39)

And it still feels good for someone to be like, hey, you. You did a great job on that. Thank you.

Caller 1 (49:44)

Yeah.

Dr. John DeLoney (49:46)

And I'm not saying that he's nine and you need to pat him on the head. That's not what I'm saying.

Kelly (49:51)

Yeah.

Dr. John DeLoney (49:51)

I'm just saying this. If you're not his biggest cheerleader, somebody else or something else will be.

Kelly (49:58)

Yeah.

Dr. John DeLoney (49:59)

And if he has a scoreboard on a video game that tells him whether he's doing a good job or not, that's where he's going to gravitate towards. If he's got buddies in a bar that will be happy to see him. Hey, Norm. When he walks in the door, that's where he'll go.

Caller 1 (50:14)

Yeah.

Dr. John DeLoney (50:15)

And part of it is he's got to be a grown man. And this is going to sound crazy, and you might think you're nuts, dude, but just try it. And if this doesn't work, I want you to write back into the show, and I will read your response, and I will say, jelony, you. I did what you said, and you failed. And I'll read it. I'll. I'll eat crow in front of everybody who listens to the show.

Caller 1 (50:38)

Okay.

Dr. John DeLoney (50:38)

But I want you all to do like a two hour, let's, like, here's our money situation, here's our life situation. We have two young kids. Here's all the things we need to do. Diapers, bedtime, all that stuff. And here's the stuff I want us to do this year. And I want you to look at him and say this. I have not done a good job telling you how glad I am that I'm married to you. I see the work you put in from home to support this family, and thank you. I'm grateful for you. I love you. And you might be cringing right now as I'm saying that, but somebody has to go first. And if he takes that gift you gave him, which is I see you and I know you and I'm grateful for you. If he takes that and then plays more video games, then your marriage has deeper issues.

Kelly (51:31)

Yeah, Right?

Caller 1 (51:33)

Yeah.

Dr. John DeLoney (51:36)

If you say, here, I'm seeing you and I'm knowing you, and I'm celebrating you, and here's how I want to be seen and known and celebrated.

Kelly (51:45)

And.

Dr. John DeLoney (51:45)

He'S like, oh, sweet. Now I have a road map. That'd be awesome.

Kelly (51:53)

Why is that so hard?

Dr. John DeLoney (51:55)

I don't know. You tell me. Why is that so hard?

Kelly (51:58)

That's like. Just imagining myself trying to sit down and say that is, like, terrifying. Even though I know if I did, he would be, like, so grateful to hear that.

Dr. John DeLoney (52:22)

Why is it hard for you? Why is it hard for you to put down your scorecard?

Kelly (52:33)

I don't know. I feel like I. But it's been hard for me. With the exception of, like, a few friendships and my children. That's, like, so hard for me to say to, like, to imagine saying to anybody.

Dr. John DeLoney (52:58)

Why? What do you feel like you're scared of losing something? What are you afraid of losing by looking at somebody and saying, my God, you. I lean on you. Thank you. What are you afraid of losing?

Kelly (53:18)

I think it feels like. I don't think it's giving up control, but it's like giving up power. Some of. Yeah, like, my power to be okay. Because, like, I have done a lot of hard things and I've like. And I'm okay. And I feel like I like myself.

Dr. John DeLoney (53:42)

Mary, you're not okay.

Kelly (53:43)

Cool thing.

Dr. John DeLoney (53:44)

You're not okay. That's. That's the mask you've created. And it's an awesome suit. It fits great. You're like Spider Man. Like, the suit fits great.

Kelly (53:55)

Yeah.

Dr. John DeLoney (53:55)

But you're not okay. I'm just curious as to why you can create humans with this man and why y' all can share a checking account together, but you can't tell them I'm grateful for you.

Kelly (54:15)

That's terrible, huh?

Dr. John DeLoney (54:17)

It's not terrible. Your body's trying to protect you from something. So I want to honor it. I'll cut to the chase here. You're breathing the air that our culture has given you. And that is as a modern, sophisticated, intelligent, hard working woman, you should not need anybody. You should not need anything. And everybody else should feel as twisted up inside as you do, because that's just what this is. And I want to tell you, it's an insane, insidious lie. You do need that guy. You need him to step up. You need him to do things that will be attractive to you. You need him to stop numbing out inside your own home. And he needs you to say, I'm grateful for you. This house doesn't work without you. And so. Here's my. My. My call. My challenge to you is, go for it. You don't have anything to lose. But tell them, I'm sorry. I was wrong. Write him some. Write him a letter and read it to him about how grateful you are for him. How he is helping provide you with a dream you've had since you were a little girl, which is to be a mom, to be a wife. And then say, I want to build something amazing. And we get to co create that together. But this. This house, we're going to rebuild because we have a new marriage now. It's going to be built on gratitude and purpose. Thank you. I don't say it enough. And that ends this year. And then instead of saying, quit using your numbing agent in this house where I can't even say the words, I'm. I'm grateful for you. I'm not going to kick your crutch out from under you. I'm going to join you. And also, I've put some stuff on the calendar for us. We're going to start getting out of the house because I want us to get out of the house. I don't want us to become a house. That where we work from home, we live at home, we stay at home, we sleep at home, and we never go anywhere. That's a recipe for insanity. But before you start going tactical, you need to keep growing. We got to keep doing this. You have to look at him and put both of your hands on either side of his face and say, my God, I'm so Glad I got you. I don't understand your comedy club or your need for more guitars or your need for dressing up in your hunting outfits to go out in the woods or your video games, but I'm not going to understand every hobby. But my God, I'm glad I got you. And if it's restorative a couple nights a week, great. And if it's a numbing agent, then we love each other enough to call each other out. Let's start there, sister. So you're on the clock. I want you to try this out and then you're going to call me back and let me know how it went. And I will read whatever you say. I'll read it out. I'm willing to be completely wrong, have egg on my face on this one. But I have a sneaking suspicion that you might just melt your husband when for the first time in 10 years, you hold his face and say, my God, I'm so glad I got you. And I want some things to change around here. And that change begins with me. Are you in? He may just put down that controller and say, I'm all in. Maybe not. But maybe. Thanks for the call. We'll be right back. Montana Knife Co. Makes the best knives on the planet, period. You all know that my son and I are big hunters and big fishermen. We just love being outdoors. And you'll know that my wife is a world class cook. So between the woods and the kitchen, we need knives that actually hold up, that are amazing, that will stand the test of time. I bought the Montana Knife Company Chef's knife set for my wife several years ago, and she still says it's one of the greatest gifts I've ever bought her, and she uses them all the time. And I have a ton of Montana Knife Co. Knives for all of my outdoor adventures. Their knives are designed, tested and built by real hunters, real butchers, real fishermen, and real cooks. When you pick one up, you can feel the quality. They're proudly made the United States of America. They're razor sharp, right out of the box, and they will last a lifetime. Montana Knife guarantees that my grandkids are going to fight over their knives someday. And if their knives need sharpening, you just send them back to Montana and they'll do it for free. Give the outdoorsman and the cook in your life knives that they will love and actually use. Go to montanaknifecompany.com to see what's available right now. You won't be disappointed. That's Montana knifecompany.com. all right, we are back. Kelly 1.0 slipped out. Kelly 2.0, no. Whoops. Kelly 2.0 slipped out. Kelly 1.0 pulled her covered wagon up to the door and walked on in. Good to see you.

Caller 3 (59:47)

Hey there.

Dr. John DeLoney (59:48)

And also with you. What's up?

Caller 3 (59:49)

All right, so we have a cool. Crap that happened.

Dr. John DeLoney (59:51)

Let it rip.

Caller 3 (59:52)

So we had a caller back in November, Phoebe, who was scared to go back to church after there had been a shooting at a church nearby.

Dr. John DeLoney (60:00)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Caller 3 (60:01)

So she says or she writes. I used to. I used everything that John said to choose agency instead of fear. We took a week off and we went on a family vacation over the weekend instead of going to church. I have a picture that I look at whenever I start ruminating or I hug my boys and I ask if they need a snack. My church has taken steps to make our building more secure. It hasn't made all of the scary go away, but I don't start hyperventilating every time I go into the church building. I feel like I can take action instead of being acted upon. I was really grateful for how respectful and compassionate John was when we talked. I know the. Oh, she talks about some other things, but she don't have much to do with that. But she also says that she also uses some of your advice on other videos that she's watched and how that she says, thank you again, again for doing what you do and please continue doing the good work.

Dr. John DeLoney (60:55)

Did she also add in there? And thank you so much for Kelly.

Caller 3 (60:58)

No, she didn't. Because I only added it when they actually. Only when they actually added in.

Dr. John DeLoney (61:03)

So go back and read that line because that. That's what I want to leave everybody with. Which one? Taking action and not being acted upon.

Caller 3 (61:11)

I feel like I can take action instead of being acted upon.

Dr. John DeLoney (61:14)

Oh, my gosh. The definition of agency. I feel like I can take action instead of being acted upon. If this show is about anything, it's about that. Awesome. Way to go, Phoebe. I'm proud of you. I'm proud of you and everybody who is taking action instead of letting the world just happen to them and around them. I'm proud of you, too. See you guys soon.