My Stepdad Had an Inappropriate Photo of Me on His Phone

Summary

Episode Summary: "My Stepdad Had an Inappropriate Photo of Me on His Phone"

Podcast Information:

• Title: The Dr. John DeLoney Show
• Host: Ramsey Network
• Description: A caller-driven show providing real talk on relationships and mental health challenges.
• Episode Title: My Stepdad Had an Inappropriate Photo of Me on His Phone
• Release Date: May 14, 2025

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1. Renee's Story: Discovering the Inappropriate Photo

[00:05 - 06:23]

Renee's Confession: Renee, a 30-year-old from Raleigh, North Carolina, shares a deeply distressing experience where she discovered an inappropriate photo of herself on her stepdad's phone. The photo was manipulated using an app to make her appear completely naked, taken from a picture she had posted on Facebook a year prior.

Key Points:

• Context of Discovery: Renee found the photo while her stepdad was picking her up from the airport late at night. She accessed his phone using her birthday as the password and stumbled upon the altered image.
• Emotional Impact: Renee expresses feelings of being "absolutely gutted and shattered," highlighting a strained relationship with her biological father and viewing her stepdad as a positive influence over the past decade.
• Confrontation Attempt: She confronted her stepdad calmly, asking him to delete the photo and the app, but remains uncertain about the future of their relationship.

Notable Quotes:

• Renee: "It's my world kind of shattered in that because I don't have a great relationship with my dad... I feel very heartbroken, very betrayed, very trapped and very, very stuck." [01:16]
• John DeLoney: "It’s a disturbing new world we've entered into." [07:35]

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2. Dr. DeLoney's Insight and Advice to Renee

[06:23 - 17:51]

Navigating the Trauma: Dr. John DeLoney delves into the complexities of Renee's situation, recognizing the layers of betrayal and emotional turmoil she faces. He emphasizes the severity of the act, equating it to a form of assault or sex crime due to the misuse of technology and the violation of trust.

Key Points:

• Technological Betrayal: The use of AI apps to create realistic but false images exacerbates the betrayal, making it harder to navigate legally and emotionally.
• Emotional Processing: Dr. DeLoney advises Renee to honor her feelings and warns against bottling up emotions, which can lead to overwhelming rage and potential retraumatization.
• Support Systems: He urges Renee to reach out for support, whether through therapy or trusted individuals, highlighting the importance of not facing this trauma alone.
• Family Dynamics: The episode touches on the strained relationship with Renee's mother, who may have unknowingly contributed to the environment that allowed the stepdad's actions.

Notable Quotes:

• Dr. DeLoney: "I want you to know he destroyed this relationship, not you." [12:58]
• Dr. DeLoney: "You deserve peace. And your body does not know what that feels like." [16:10]

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3. Jay's Story: Struggles with Divorce and Custody

[23:22 - 38:03]

Jay's Confession: Jay from Orlando, Florida, discusses his ongoing struggles following a divorce finalized in July of the previous year. He shares his frustration and anger over a 50/50 custody arrangement for his two daughters, aged 4 and 8, fearing that his limited time with them diminishes his role as a father.

Key Points:

• Emotional Turmoil: Jay battles with feelings of inadequacy and anger towards his ex-wife for the divorce, compounded by the difficulty of sharing custody.
• Impact on Daughters: He worries about the emotional well-being of his young daughters and the challenges of integrating another father figure into their lives.
• Dr. DeLoney's Perspective: The host identifies that Jay's primary pain stems from not having fully processed the end of his marriage, leading to constant anger and anxiety.

Notable Quotes:

• Jay: "I don't want to live with this kind of feeling that pit in my stomach the rest of my life." [24:50]
• Dr. DeLoney: "You're stuck in the grief that she blew up your life." [27:44]

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4. Dr. DeLoney's Advice to Jay

[26:03 - 38:03]

Healing and Moving Forward: Dr. DeLoney provides Jay with strategies to address his unresolved grief and anger. He emphasizes the necessity of fully grieving the end of the marriage to prevent these emotions from contaminating other aspects of his life, including his relationship with his daughters.

Key Points:

• Grief Processing: Dr. DeLoney encourages Jay to confront and process his grief to avoid lingering anger and resentment.
• Practical Steps: He suggests practical actions such as holding a miniature funeral for his marriage with trusted friends and initiating open communication with his ex-wife for the sake of their children.
• Support Tools: Offers Jay a copy of his book "Building a Non-Anxious Life" and connects him with resources like Better Help for professional therapy.

Notable Quotes:

• Dr. DeLoney: "If you don't grieve, you're going to constantly have a nuclear reactor in the middle of your chest." [16:57]
• Dr. DeLoney: "You're not able to move to sadness yet because you're still so mad." [32:25]

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5. Annie's Story: Managing Her Son's Frustration Over No Sleepovers

[42:45 - 55:44]

Annie's Dilemma: Annie from Boise, Idaho, seeks advice on how to handle her 12-year-old son's frustration regarding her and her partner's strict no sleepover policy. She expresses concern over her son's increasing anger and feelings of isolation due to these boundaries.

Key Points:

• Parental Boundaries: Annie and her partner have implemented a no sleepover rule to protect their son from potential dangers associated with unsupervised interactions.
• Child's Frustration: Her son feels deprived of social interactions and claims he has no friends or opportunities for sleepovers.
• Balancing Safety and Socialization: Annie struggles with maintaining firm boundaries while wanting her son to feel socially connected and supported.

Notable Quotes:

• Annie: "All right, so how can we manage our son's frustration while standing firm on our no sleepover rule?" [42:54]
• Dr. DeLoney: "Your 12-year-old is supposed to... if they all like you all the time, you're probably not parenting." [50:47]

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6. Dr. DeLoney's Guidance to Annie

[43:03 - 55:44]

Balancing Firmness with Love: Dr. DeLoney commends Annie for her steadfast approach and offers strategies to help her manage her son's frustration while upholding their values.

Key Points:

• Firm Boundaries with Love: Emphasizes the importance of maintaining clear, firm boundaries while assuring her son of their unwavering love and commitment to his safety.
• Empowering Children: Encourages parents to allow children to express their frustrations openly and to communicate that boundaries are set for their well-being.
• Non-Hypocritical Consistency: Advises that enforcing rules consistently, even when unforeseen circumstances arise, helps children understand and respect the boundaries.
• Encouraging Independence: Promotes creating environments where children can make safe and responsible choices, fostering their independence without exposing them to unnecessary risks.

Notable Quotes:

• Dr. DeLoney: "Overly permissive parents destroy their kids. Overly critical, overly strict parents with no connection or love destroy their kids. It's the one in the middle." [51:34]
• Dr. DeLoney: "If you're having sex that you don't want to be having, that's a problem... but if you two are both consenting and ready, rock on till the break of dawn." [28:52]

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Conclusion

In this emotionally charged episode, Dr. John DeLoney addresses serious and sensitive topics brought forth by his callers. From dealing with betrayal and boundary violations to navigating the complexities of divorce and parenting, the discussion underscores the importance of processing emotions, setting healthy boundaries, and seeking support. Dr. DeLoney's compassionate and insightful advice provides listeners with practical steps to overcome their challenges while maintaining their well-being and relationships.

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Notable Moments:

• Renee's Heartbreak: [01:16] – Renee's raw expression of feeling "heartbroken, betrayed, trapped."
• Dr. DeLoney's Empathy: [12:58] – Assurance that "he destroyed this relationship, not you."
• Jay's Custody Struggles: [24:50] – "I don't want to live with this kind of feeling that pit in my stomach the rest of my life."
• Annie’s Parenting Approach: [50:47] – Emphasis on balanced parenting: "Overly permissive... Overly critical... It's the one in the middle."

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Listener Takeaways:

• Honor Your Emotions: Allow yourself to feel and process your emotions fully.
• Set Firm Boundaries: Maintain clear and consistent boundaries while showing love and support.
• Seek Support: Don't hesitate to reach out for professional help or lean on trusted individuals during difficult times.
• Communicate Openly: Foster open and honest communication within your relationships to navigate complex situations effectively.

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Note: This summary focuses solely on the content-rich segments of the episode, excluding advertisements, intros, and outros as per the provided instructions.

Transcript

[Renee]

I found a picture of myself on my stepdad's phone. He had put a picture that I had posted on Facebook through an app that made me look completely naked. I'm just absolutely gutted.

[John DeLoney]

God. Yo, yo, what's up? This is John with a Dr. Joe John DeLoney show, taking your calls from real people all over planet earth about whatever's going on in your lives, your mental and emotional health, your relationships, whatever you got going on. I'd love to have you on the show. Give me a buzz at 1-844-693-3291 or go to john deloney.com ask a s k. All right, Raleigh, North Carolina, let's talk to Renee. What's up, Renee?

[Renee]

Hi. Nothing much. How are you?

[John DeLoney]

I am running a scam called being a YouTuber. What are you doing?

[Renee]

Yeah, nothing much. Just enjoying the sunshine out here in Raleigh.

[John DeLoney]

Amazing. It's a beautiful part of the world, man. That's fantastic. So what's up?

[Renee]

Yeah, I. I had an unfortunate situation where I found a picture of myself on my stepdad's phone, and he had put a picture that I had posted on Facebook through an app that made me and the friend that was in the picture as well look like we were completely naked. It's my world kind of shattered in that because I don't have a great relationship with my dad, and my stepdad has been in my life for 10 plus years, and he's really been an answer to prayer for me in so many ways. So I'm just absolutely gutted and shattered, and I. I don't know. I don't know what a relationship with him would look like moving forward. I don't know if I want that. I don't know. I just. I feel very heartbroken, very betrayed, very trapped and very, very stuck. So I. I'd love any advice.

[John DeLoney]

Sheesh. How old are you?

[Renee]

I'm 30.

[John DeLoney]

How old was this picture that you posted?

[Renee]

It was about a year old, so I was very much an adult.

[John DeLoney]

Okay. So this wasn't like. This wasn't kids? Like, no, we're. Jeez, Gosh. How'd you find this?

[Renee]

So I. He was picking me up from the airport. I'm originally from California, and my flight got in very, very late. It was delayed, and so he picked me up from the airport, and I heard a notification go off on his phone. And I asked him, I'm like, why? Who's messaging you at like one in the morning? What's going on? And so he told me he's got friends that he used to work with that are contracting over in the middle EAS and they send him motorcycle videos. Okay, no big deal. So we sat down for breakfast, dinner, whatever, meal that was at 1 in the morning. And I took his phone and his password is my birthday. And so I looked at the message and it was in fact just a motorcycle video. But he had another message that was kind of suspicious. And I asked him about it and he was like, he just had some excuse for, oh, yeah, that's a girl that I knew from high school or whatever. And then I. I don't know why I did this, but I looked at his text messages and one of the first messages that he had was a picture that he had sent himself. And so I opened that and that's where I found the picture. I did have a chance to talk to him about it the next day, because right then I was absolutely shocked. I didn't.

[John DeLoney]

He saw you open the picture?

[Renee]

No, he saw me open the messages, but he didn't see me open the text message thread the picture. I just exit out of everything, put the phone down, flip it back over to him, and we ate breakfast in almost silence.

[John DeLoney]

So how'd your conversation with him go? Start with, hey, stepdad. What the. Like, how did it start?

[Renee]

So I tried to not be overly emotional about it.

[John DeLoney]

Why?

[Renee]

I don't, I don't know.

[John DeLoney]

You know what? I retract that. Why is a terrible question to ask you. And I just put you on the defensive and you don't need that right now. I'm sorry about that. That was a bad, that was a bad move on my part. Okay, so you're challenging him.

[Renee]

Yeah. And so I, I sat down with them and I said, hey, I found something inappropriate on your phone. That's concerning. And he was like, yeah, what did you see? And so I told him, well, I saw the picture that you sent to yourself. And he said, ah, yeah, well, yeah, yeah, you know, it was. It's nap and I don't know, just playing around, I don't know. And just, you know, kind of wishy washy waffling back and forth of, you know, there's not an excuse for that. And so I asked him and I said, do you see me as a stepdaughter? Because that's not, that's not what a step. Like, that's not a fatherly, you know, that's not something that a father figure would do. And he said, yeah, no, you're absolutely right. That's not something that a father figure would do. I Do see you as a stepdad, but he couldn't look at me. And so I don't believe him. Like, this does shatter my image of who he is in my life. But I just told him, like, hey, just delete the picture. Delete the app. Like, I don't. I don't want. I'm not going to make a massive deal about this. I'm not going to tell my mom. Like, I don't. I just. At that moment, I just really did want to forget about it. But, like, I can't forget about it.

[John DeLoney]

Yeah, man. So there's so many layers to this. Do you mind if I think about them out loud?

[Renee]

Yeah, sure.

[John DeLoney]

Okay. So I'm gonna go real big picture and then get pretty granular with your situation. So, big picture. We're in a new era. Normally, to get a picture of a stepdaughter, and unfortunately, I've seen this and been periphery to this and had some of these hard conversations, you'd have to physically sneak a photo of somebody, open up their blinds, somehow get your phone in the bathroom while they're showering. Like, you'd have to do a thing like that. That is a crime. Now, with these AI apps, you can take a benign picture and without committing a crime, have this. This as real as a real photo right there. Right?

[Renee]

Yep.

[John DeLoney]

It's a disturbing new world we've entered into. So that's big picture. Second picture is maybe not in the legal sense, but I want you to feel. I want to connect that feeling you have in your guts and that feeling you have in your chest with that confusion in your mind. Okay. It may not be a legal case, but this, I consider this assault. I consider this a sex crime. Okay. At the very least, it's so disgusting that. Yeah, every bit of unmooring you feel, especially for somebody that came in as a rescuer, because here's what you're. I just. For the. The people listening, here's what I know to be true and feel free to tell me, actually, you missed this one. Now, you are wondering what other pictures he has of you. For how long has he been looking at photos of you and your friends? Did he take pictures of you before these apps were out? Does he fantasize about. I mean, it unmoors everything, right?

[Renee]

Yep.

[John DeLoney]

And you and I both know this doesn't happen a single time that someone happens to see a photo. You know that. I know that. And then I want to know, what friends in the Middle east is he texting and what is he sending? And honestly, that Stuff does matter, but not right now. Right now, you're just devastated. And so I have all sorts of opinions on what you should do next. And I also know it doesn't matter. My question to you is, what do you want to do next? Not what you think you should do. What is your gut telling you is the next right move?

[Renee]

I'm so conflicted because he. Part of me, like, I don't want to disqualify all the good that he's done in my life, but also, like, when I look back at our entire relationship, I was holding back. Like, I think I knew something was off for a while. I didn't want to hug him. I didn't want to, like, tell him I love you. He, again, he's been, like, a really good influence, but now I just feel dirty. Like, I just. Yeah, all those things are right. Like, what? This feels like the tip of the iceberg, you know?

[John DeLoney]

Yeah. Hold on. Don't. You're holding back. Don't do that. Well, I don't want to tell you. I. I don't want to tell you what to do and what to feel right now, but if you'll honor yourself, don't hold those tears back. Because right now, if I'm. If I. I've sat with enough people in this situation, there's a sense that if you start crying, you're never going to be able to stop. Is that fair?

[Renee]

Yeah. Yeah. I just feel like if I actually show emotion, it'll be, like, completely the end of a relationship with him at all.

[John DeLoney]

Okay, but listen, he ended it. And you have always known. You ever heard of the turkey problem? It's an economics thing, but it works. Here, a turkey is born the day after Thanksgiving and is moved into the family yard. And every day, the farmer goes out and pets that turkey and feeds that turkey the best of the best of the best. And over time, that turkey knows and would tell everybody, this is the greatest guy who ever lived. He feeds me every day. He pets me, he brings in mates for me until Thanksgiving morning. And so maybe you have been caged with a predator for a long time, and your instinct, your genetic line, and your just grit and determination. Because let's say, before him, your life was rough too, right?

[Renee]

Yeah.

[John DeLoney]

Yeah. You're very tough and pretty gritty, too, correct?

[Annie]

Yeah.

[John DeLoney]

Like, you get stuff done, you figure it out. Right?

[Renee]

Yeah.

[John DeLoney]

Okay. So it may be that caged with a predator, you have always. You've been able to extrapolate the good. And so I don't want you giving him credit for your survival and your hard work.

[Renee]

Okay.

[John DeLoney]

I want you to know he destroyed this relationship, not you.

[Renee]

Yeah, that's true.

[John DeLoney]

And I know that you want to hang on to it. Okay, you're getting hard on me. Tell me what's happening inside your chest. I can feel you walling up.

[Renee]

Yeah. No, I think you're absolutely correct. And I'm just really frustrated myself for not, like, seeing what you're saying sooner of, like, you're right. He. I have been chained to the predator, and I've made the most of the situation. But, like, why did I not know? Like, I knew, you know, as you said, like, my gut told me. I just didn't. I don't know if I didn't care or didn't want. Like, I'm just. I'm angry with myself. I'm frustrated.

[John DeLoney]

How long have you known him? Since you were 20.

[Renee]

He's been in my life as a stepdad since 20, but he's been in my life since I was like, six or seven.

[John DeLoney]

Okay. Do you have any memories of him doing something shady?

[Renee]

There was one time, I remember I. I was rooming with. He was living with my mom, and I was staying with his step. His daughter, my stepsister, at his house, but he wasn't living there. And there was one night that he did come get into bed with me. Nothing happened, but he just slept there.

[John DeLoney]

Yeah. I'm sorry. You've been through enough, and you didn't deserve to have another man blow your life up. And I'm sorry.

[Renee]

Me, too.

[John DeLoney]

So can I draw a map for you about what I think might happen down the road here just so you're not. I'm using it part as teaching for the people listening, but also just for you. If you're not there already. You're going to become overwhelmed with rage for your mom, and you're going to be overcome with rage for him. And you're going to begin to ask yourself, was your whole childhood a lie? What do you not remember? And then there's going to be little GPS pins popping up all over the place. Okay? And then you're going to think about another sleepover when you had a friend over that you're going to think about all that. It's just going to come back in in pieces and pieces and pieces until it's like a leak coming from a hot water heater till the whole thing just burst. Okay? And so I want you to hear me say, you cannot go through this next stage by yourself. It'll kill you. Okay?

[Renee]

Yeah. I'm just. I'm really scared about telling my mom because, you know, ever since I was. Ever since they got together, she's been telling me, like, you don't deserve a man as good as him in your life. And she's always felt like she has to compete with me for him and.

[John DeLoney]

But you know, why now? You know what?

[Renee]

She was crazy. She has now. Yeah. But now I'm seeing that, like, wow, she. She saw.

[John DeLoney]

I mean, yeah, she saw, but the dot, dot, dot is, did she know?

[Renee]

Yeah. I don't know if she knew or not. I pray to God she had no idea. But I'm also not that naive.

[John DeLoney]

That's right. That's right. And so the. The domino here is you may have lost your mom, too.

[Renee]

Yep.

[John DeLoney]

And if she knew she dragged her little daughter into a cage with a predator, shame on her. Shame on her. And you can find out with a simple email or simple phone call. And if she chooses your side, immediately, you know, oh, my God, she didn't know. And if she says, how dare you talk about this, man, that was so good. Then you know, Right?

[Renee]

Yeah, I mean, I think I already know. I just. I'm really not wanting to confirm that.

[John DeLoney]

Yeah. It feels like you're holding a dam up with two hands. I want you just to look to your left and your right and see that dam is already blown out. It's all that water is rushing. What was is now over. And so that strength and energy you're using to hold up what was or the shreds of what was, it's just wasted energy. I want you to use that energy on you. And that means you're gonna have to find people to do holidays with. That means you have to find people to celebrate with. That means you have to go see a therapist for real. Probably a trauma informed therapist in the Raleigh area. I mean, you're gonna have to do some of those things that are very hard and very uncomfortable because, Renee, you deserve peace. And your body does not know what that feels like. Renee, call anytime. Everybody listening. And everybody listening is probably feeling the same bit of disgust, the shock. Let's burn it down. Call everybody. And that's my. That's. That's what I want to say, too. I want to tell Renee, you need to get on the phone, you need to call everybody. You need to burn it all down. You need to find out who is in the Sunday school class, all those things. And I get that. And also I want everybody to know. I just. I've sat with so many Rene's in my career. And it. I'm just so sick to my stomach and heartbroken. But there's a fog that. And there's a depth of this hurt that is so almost. It's a paralytic. It's so hard. And so the la again, the last thing she needs is some other man saying, here's what you got to do. That's not going to help. What she needs is somebody to sit by and say, I'm not a predator, and I'll sit with you and I'll listen, and I want to encourage you to do the next right thing. I have a feeling that when the fog begins to clear and Renee goes from numb to feeling that that rage will emerge and she'll enact justice across the board and. But those will be her calls to make. But, Renee, I'm really honored that you sat with me and let me sit with you. All right, when we come back, I talk to a dad who is newly divorced and is really struggling with only seeing his kids half the time. We'll be right back. All right, it's time for a quick word about Delete Me. Does anyone else feel like our digital footprints are starting to feel more like digital trails leading a whole bunch of creepy people back to us? And now scammers are using phishing attacks. That's phishing with a ph, where they try to trick you into giving them something by pretending to know you. Have you ever got an email or a text or a phone call and the person or the AI bot on the other end sounds like someone who's really looking out for you. With the new technological advancements, really, no one is safe anymore. So what are we supposed to do? Start controlling what you can. First, you learn about how to be careful online and offline with your digital footprint and sign up with Delete Me. I use and recommend Deleteme because they work in the background to reduce my online presence. That way I don't have to worry about creepy data brokers having my data and then selling it to other people that I don't even know about. Deleteme has reviewed over tens of thousands of sites for me, and they've removed my data from hundreds of them, which has saved me countless hours and a ton of stress. Stop the phishing attacks, the harassment, and the other online threats before they even start and take control of your digital privacy. With Delete me, go to joindeleteme.com deloney for 20% off their annual plan. That comes out to less than nine bucks a month. Go to Join J O I n joindelete me.com DeLoney all right, listen, I understand the struggle. You're juggling work, parenting, eating right and a million other things. You're tired and wired and exhausted and you're trying to hold it all together. But there are small daily choices that we can all make to feel a little more clear headed and a little less anxious so we can show up and be steady for the people we love. For me, that includes starting my day with Organifi juices and gummies. Organifi products are great because they don't just support your physical health, they also contribute to mental clarity and emotional balance too. They offer a wide range of organic superfood blends that are really easy to fit into your daily routine. Even when you're on the go, you just mix the juices with water and you're ready to rock and roll. I love their green juice in the morning for a great start and their red juice for caffeine free energy in the morning and in the afternoon. And of course I love the Shilajit creatine and Happy Drops gummies for for a delicious take on important nutrients. Good folks. Organifi makes it simple to take proactive steps towards better health. Go to Organifi.com Deloney and use code Deloney to save 20% off everything sitewide. That's O R G A N I f I organifi.com DeLoney Go check them out. Orlando, Florida let's talk to Jay. What's up Jay?

[Jay]

Hey John. How you doing?

[John DeLoney]

I'm doing great, brother. What's up with you?

[Jay]

Not too much, just living life I guess.

[John DeLoney]

What's going on, brother?

[Jay]

Yeah, so I went through a divorce that was final last July. My ex wife, she originally left the marriage coming upon two years now we have two daughters right now they're both W4 and 8 this year. The thing I'm still struggling a lot with is the fact that, well, we have 50, 50 custody and I'm. I'm having a hard time with the fact still of just being separated from my daughters. I still hold a lot of anger towards that part of it. I mean their mom, she stepped out, she had an affair and all that and that. Okay, I got over it. It is what it is that happened. But it's just the fact of being separated from my daughters, knowing that they're still so young and the rest of their childhood, I can only be a part of the lives 50% of the time.

[John DeLoney]

Yeah.

[Jay]

So I don't want to live with this Kind of feeling that pit in my stomach the rest of my life. I want to get to a place where I can be okay. But it's been a couple years now, and I still hold that anger and just that feeling, a pit in my stomach that I just can't seem to get over.

[John DeLoney]

Man. I got two things off top of my head here, but I'm gonna go backwards. The first thing is I'll just sit with you for a second, man. I don't know how you do it. I don't know how anybody who splits custody does it. Because my life's just not complete when my kids aren't around. You know what I mean?

[Jay]

Yeah.

[John DeLoney]

And they drive me crazy, and we get on each other's nerves and it's loud and messy and. But. But, dude, my life's not complete, so I. Dude, I'm. I'm sitting here with you just as a fellow dad. I can't imagine that kind of. I can't imagine that pain.

[Jay]

Right.

[John DeLoney]

And then you throw in, is she dating again? Probably.

[Jay]

Yes.

[John DeLoney]

She.

[Jay]

She's with a guy that she had an affair with. Yeah. Basically, as soon as she left, she moved right in with him.

[John DeLoney]

Okay.

[Jay]

My girls didn't know this guy. And. And I guess to kind of throw another layer onto that is, you know, how do I even get okay with another guy being kind of another father figure in their lives? Yeah, I struggle with that too. Well, let's just go ahead.

[Annie]

Yeah.

[Jay]

I'm just gonna say, you know, going over the last few years, people say it's just a new normal. You get used to it, but there's nothing no more about it. So it's like how you get used to something like that.

[John DeLoney]

All right, here's the first thing that is just sitting on my chest, and I want to say it and tell me if I'm wrong. Okay?

[Jay]

Okay.

[John DeLoney]

The pain that you feel for missing your daughters, dude, that's visceral. And just as a. Like I said, as a dad, I can't even. I can't wrap my head around how painful that that would be. But I don't think that's where your anger comes from.

[Jay]

Okay.

[John DeLoney]

The way you've mentioned this a few times, I think your anger is in a. In a laser beam on your ex wife. I still think you can't figure out what you did wrong that she left you. I still think you're back there two years ago going, you. You're cheating on me. Like, what? And so you're living with the reality that you don't get to see your daughters. Half the time can't imagine that. But I think. I think the source, the epicenter of your hurt is that you still haven't metabolized the fact that your marriage is over. Like, you're still living in that marriage. And she still controls your thoughts. She still controls. Is one of the first people you think of during the day when you wake up. Like, you're so angry.

[Jay]

Yeah.

[John DeLoney]

And you're stuck in the grief that she blew up. Yalls life.

[Jay]

Yeah.

[John DeLoney]

Until you grieve, brother, that your marriage period at the end of it is over. It's just gonna. You're gonna constantly have a nuclear reactor in the middle of your chest. And you can then go around and cast stories on other situations in your life, other pain points. Not getting to see your daughters. This scumbag who, like, hooked up with a married woman, and then now she. Now she's with him. Right. You can cast other people in your life as the villains, and there's. There's truth to that. But I think the real hurt here, man, is you haven't gone through the full grief cycle of you lost your marriage. You never considered yourself to be a single dad. You never considered you would have to say, hi, I'm Jay. I'm divorced. Does that ring true? Tell me if I'm out to lunch, man.

[Jay]

No, I. I think you're. You're hitting it on the head pretty well there. I mean, I know. I guess I can kind of agree with that. Because even just dealing with their mom, I still get anxious.

[John DeLoney]

That's it.

[Jay]

I tense up. I hate having to have any kind of communication with her. Seeing.

[John DeLoney]

Tell me about that. Is it because you're enraged with her? Are you? Or the layer beneath that is you're still wondering what's so bad about you?

[Jay]

I think it comes from. So during the time, probably the first year of us being separated, she was back and forth with this guy quite a bit. And when she wasn't with them, we were able to be cordial and, you know, talk through things. When she was with him, I was the enemy. They. They did a lot to just disrespect me as our girl's father. Belittled me as her father. More him.

[John DeLoney]

Give me an example.

[Jay]

So there was one instance where one of my daughters had pneumonia. She had to stay overnight at the hospital. And so I let the staff there know, hey, the mom's coming with this guy. Just so you know, he and I, we don't get along. It's best keep us separate. Or whatever.

[John DeLoney]

And so they let me stop right there. Why would you feel the need to preface that?

[Jay]

Because he always has to make comments towards me. Like what? Like, for instance, like when this happened and they went out and spoke with him, he could still see me. And he was like, thanks for. Thanks for that not allowing me to come in the room right now. I was like, you're not their dad.

[John DeLoney]

Of course.

[Jay]

He goes, I am there. I am their dad. It was what his response was.

[John DeLoney]

Wow. Okay.

[Jay]

So things like that, just to try to dig it even further.

[John DeLoney]

So let me ask you, this is a hard question, but like it or not, he's a man that your daughter spend 50% of their life with.

[Jay]

Right.

[John DeLoney]

Tell me about the power play on display at a hospital when you have a little girl there and laying there in the hospital with pneumonia that you wouldn't be able to just suck your pride and bury it for a second and let all three of y' all in the room to be with this little girl.

[Jay]

I guess of the anxiety that I get when I was around them during that time.

[John DeLoney]

Okay.

[Jay]

There was other stuff that's happened up until then. So it. Like before all this happened, I was. I was never anxious for nothing. I was carefree.

[John DeLoney]

No, but your life blew up. Your body now has a GPS pin and pain that you did not ever. You couldn't imagine. And here it is.

[Jay]

Right, right. Right. Yeah.

[John DeLoney]

And so your body's right. Your anxiousness is right. Now, you know, somebody who says I do might stab you right in the face. Now you know a love that you didn't know you were capable of with two beautiful little girls, and then you only get to see them half the time. You didn't know that kind of pain. And so your anxiousness is right. But I think it's because your body is still trying to solve for what was instead of owning reality, choosing what.

[Jay]

Is right.

[John DeLoney]

And it's solving that anxiety.

[Jay]

Yeah. And that's where I'm. I'm stuck. Okay. I don't know how to.

[John DeLoney]

I got you there. I'm going to send you Building a Non Anxious Life, my book for free. Okay. It's me. My gift to you.

[Jay]

Okay.

[John DeLoney]

Okay.

[Jay]

Thank you.

[John DeLoney]

I'm a hook you up with that. I'm also going to hook you up with three months free from my friends at Better Help Licensed Therapist. You can. You can check them out online at your computer at your house. Okay.

[Jay]

Okay.

[John DeLoney]

I'll hook you up with that and you can call them and just begin to walk through some of this stuff. But here's the big thing I want you to do. Do you have a couple of boys that live there with you in Florida? Some men that you trust?

[Jay]

I do, yeah.

[John DeLoney]

This is going to sound ridiculous, and you can say, this idiot podcaster told me to do this, and so I'm going to give it a shot. I want you to have them over to your house, and I want you to have a miniature funeral for your marriage. Okay? This is you pronouncing it in front of a couple of other people. This is over. And if you want to take a step further, this old Terry Real move, which I love, get a picture of your ex wife and get a picture of her new boyfriend and frame them and put them at your kitchen table. And every time you're mad, look over and say, I'm going to choose to have less of a relationship with my daughter to honor you, too. I'm going to let y' all continue to ruin my evenings, keep me out of the dating game, get frustrated all the time. I'm going to honor you, too. And then really quickly, you're going to see how ridiculous that is. Right? Or keep a picture of your ex wife up just at the dinner table in a small little frame. And when you start to spin out, literally lean over and put the picture face down and say, you don't get a vote anymore because you're going to have to teach your body because it's still trying to protect you. It still thinks it can hold on to this marriage. It's over. And now you have to. And hopefully she does, too. And hopefully this other guy does, too. Y' all are going to have to enter into adulthood, which means I'm going to put the needs of our kids ahead of my ego, of my anxiousness, of my whatever.

[Jay]

Right?

[John DeLoney]

And you want me to tell you something crazy. Now, I don't know all the ins and outs, so you can decide for yourself if this is dumb. But if you were to call this guy and say, hey, you mind grabbing a cup of coffee with me and saying, at the hospital, I was wrong. I know you see her 50% of the time. I'm their dad. It makes me uncomfortable when you say that. I don't like it. I'm their dad. But also, I know you care about my daughters, too, and that won't happen again. If they go to the hospital, we're all going to be there because we're the three adults in their life. Like it or not, that's the way this is.

[Jay]

Right?

[John DeLoney]

And that olive branch, he may Take that olive branch from you and stab you with it, maybe. Or he may take that olive branch from you and just exhale. And if you say, I want to do what's best for these girls.

[Jay]

Right.

[John DeLoney]

And so I want to trust you, I got to know your name. You got to be able to text me and say, hey, 8 year old just started her period when she was 12, and mom's struggling with it. Just know, yo, we gotta be able to text each other or some boys around here, you know, trying to talk to her. Just FYI, like, y' all gotta be able to do that for her.

[Jay]

Right?

[John DeLoney]

And he may tell you to go to hell, dude, but at least you know I did the right adult thing for my kids.

[Jay]

Yeah. Yeah. I've actually had thoughts about just saying I'm, hey, let's. Let's bury the hatchet. What happened, happened, and kind of move on from there.

[John DeLoney]

But if you've been an anxious mess, fighting the whole way. And by the way, he only. Only has an earful of how evil you are and how dumb you are from her.

[Jay]

Right.

[John DeLoney]

And she has shown the world what kind of character and integrity she has. None. Right.

[Jay]

Right.

[John DeLoney]

And so you've dated people in the past who was like, my ex boyfriend was this and this and this. Maybe you got one side of that story. And so I calling him and saying, hey, let's bury the hatchet. That's a step, a. A better path towards connecting. Because this guy's gonna be in your kid's life. A lot is starting with, hey, I was wrong. I messed this up.

[Jay]

Right.

[John DeLoney]

And if you get to a point in that conversation, you can say, bro, you slept with my wife. Like, of course this is hard, right?

[Jay]

Yeah.

[John DeLoney]

I mean, it's just putting it on the table. He knows it. You know, it not saying it doesn't make it go away. And then maybe putting it out there, only seeing my girls 50 of the time is like, guts me. But you're not able to move to sad yet because you're still so mad. And you're still so mad because I think you're still hanging on to this marriage in a weird way.

[Jay]

Right? Yeah. I mean, I'm. I. I do feel like. Like if she was trying to come back, I wouldn't.

[John DeLoney]

You think about it.

[Jay]

Yeah. I only say that because she. In the. Within the first nine months of her being back for this guy, I took twice.

[John DeLoney]

Yeah.

[Jay]

At about six or seven times. And only for her to take off again.

[John DeLoney]

Yeah.

[Jay]

And so, no, I. I told myself, you know, I would never do that. And just seeing how heartbroken my older daughter was when she did it again, I was like, I never put him.

[John DeLoney]

That's right. That's right. And. And that. And I. I mean, I don't. I can't tell you whether to take her back or not. My gut says. I don't know why you would, but a lot of that, even that circular thinking, that circular conversation, is because you haven't fully ended it yet. And to you, she's still like a prodigal wife. You still are waiting for her to come home every night, and even though you're like, I'm not gonna take her back, but you kind of wish you would, right? So it's just metabolizing this. This thing happened, and that marriage is over. Even if y' all got back together someday, y' all are building a totally new thing. A new thing that she may leave. She may sleep with one of your friends. She may. Like, who knows, right? And you may turn into an anxious wreck and get. Let your ego speak for you. So all is to say is get a couple of friends over and let's exhale on this marriage, and let's make a conscious decision. And it's going to take some practice. 60, 90, 120 days, 2, 3, 4 months, she doesn't get a vote. I'm not waking up thinking about her every minute of every day. I'm just not. I'm going to call this other man who's 50 of my daughter's waking moments are with him, and I'm gonna bury my ego in the backyard, and we're gonna do its best. I'm gonna start by saying, that was a bad call on my part. Dude, that was me just uncomfortable, and I shouldn't have done that in the hospital. That won't happen again. And please understand, I'm trying my best to navigate this with you. You slept with my wife, for crying out. It's hard for me, but I'm doing the best thing for these girls. And we got to be able to text back and forth for their sake, because they need one continuous stream. Is this pie in the sky? Of course it is. If most people could be this emotionally mature, they wouldn't get divorced in the first place. But here we are, and all we can do is the next right thing. And for you, I think the next right thing is grieving this marriage and then taking that next step forward. Thanks for the call, my brother. I'm really grateful. Holler at me if y' all have that call. That would be rad. And by the way, you know what I've never had on the show? I've never had a bio dad and a stepdad call together and say, how do we best honor these kids? I'll take that call every single day. So if y' all want to do that, that would be amazing. Reach out to Kelly and we would make that one happen, my brother. That'd be cool. Also. No, that's probably not gonna happen, but, man, I would love for it to. We come back, we talk to a woman who's trying to figure out with her teenage son about sleepovers. Stay tuned. All right, let's talk about Cozy Earth. Y' all have all heard me say I love sleeping in a cold, cold room. And my wife would prefer to sleep under one of those hot dog heat lamps at the baseball stadium. This is one of the many reasons why we both love our Cozy Earth sheets. Cozy Earth sheets help us each sleep at the perfect temperature. And they're soft and they're breathable, and they keep us comfortable all night long. And because they want all of you to sleep great every night, you should all know that not all sheets are created equal. I had no idea. Just like everything else, there's a range of quality from terrible sheets that feel like you're sleeping on an old paper towel to amazing sheets that make getting into bed feel great. Cozy Earth crafts their sheets out of viscose from bamboo. These are special fabrics and fibers that are amazing at regulating temperature and wicking moisture away while you sleep. You just have to experience how soft their sheets are to fully understand the difference. Plus, Cozy Earth goes to great lengths to verify their materials are responsibly sourced so you can feel good about how you sleep and how your sheets are made. And remember, Cozy Earth's Spring Into Comfort sale is happening right now with exclusive savings. For you watching or listening? Listening to the show 40 off. All products. That's 40% off. Visit cozyearth.com DeLoney and use code DeLoney for 40 off. That's C O Z Y cozyearth.com DeLONEY all right, let's go out to Boise, Idaho and talk to Annie. What's up, Annie?

[Annie]

Oh, not much. How are you?

[John DeLoney]

I'm doing great. What's going on in your world?

[Jay]

Good, good.

[Annie]

Well, not much advice from you.

[John DeLoney]

You got it. What's up?

[Annie]

All right, so how can we manage our son's frustration while standing firm on our no sleepover rule?

[John DeLoney]

No sleepover rule. Okay. How old's your son?

[Annie]

He is 12. Almost 13.

[John DeLoney]

So I want to applaud your stance on no sleepovers. There's literature that exists about the increased sexual predator, like just madness. There's also anecdotally, I just can't tell you the number of people who had incidents at sleepovers. Like our team was talking before this call, just about sleepovers. And everybody's got stories, all of us, right? Yep. So I'm 100 behind you. I think no sleepover rule is fantastic. And we'll get into a little bit of the downstream stuff. But I want to answer your big question up front. You cannot manage the frustration of a 12 year old. You can't. And to try to do that is futile. What you can say every single day of his life is, my job is to keep you safe and my job is to love you.

[Annie]

Yeah.

[John DeLoney]

And that comes with some of these hard decisions. And I always give my kids permission to tell their friends that their dad's a outdated idiot. I don't need him. I always felt the need. And my dad never said this explicitly, but I always felt the need to protect my parents when they gave me these what I thought at the time were crazy boundaries with my 13 or 14 year old brain. I don't want my kids to ever feel like they have to protect me. Right. So tell your friends that your dad's the worst, that your dad's lame. I don't. That's no skin off my nose. Right.

[Annie]

Yeah.

[John DeLoney]

And then occasionally maybe your house becomes the sleepover house. But that's a conversation for after 12.

[Annie]

Yeah. Yeah. We've had those conversations where we are, we are totally open to the sleepovers at our house. But that kind of makes me feel a little hypocritical.

[John DeLoney]

The concept isn't, isn't sleepover. The concept is environment.

[Annie]

Right. It's our values.

[John DeLoney]

That's right.

[Annie]

Yeah.

[John DeLoney]

And so I can tell you, like when we used to let my kids go over to like, we'll come pick you up at midnight or pick up at 1am Yep. Like make no mistake, awkward or not, my wife was calling. And only because I was at work, my wife would call and say, hey, my kid can go over there, but there can't be any phones. No kids can have phones. And can I tell you something crazy? This is just this limited friend group. A hundred percent of them took up all the phones when the kids came over. They all, they just did it. And if they were like, well then your kid can't come over, then great. I don't want my kid over there anyway. Yeah, but they did that. And, hey, my kid isn't watching these kind of movies. Awesome. Done. Next. Right. And so it was all. It was super good. And I'm gonna tell you, maybe I don't remember exactly when, but I've allowed it. I've allowed it twice. And it was with the family that I trust implicitly. It was with a family that has the same electronics rule. And here's the bigger one. It was a family where most people get mistaken on where things happen at sleepovers is often it's not the. The parents, and it's not the kid, and it's not the kid they're sleeping over with. It's that kid's older brother or sister who has a friend over. Right? Yeah, that's what.

[Annie]

I'm laughing because that's exactly. You know, we know the dangers. We know it's. Yeah, it's the friend that comes over that we don't know who has a smartphone. And we, you know, it's when the parents go to sleep at night, like, does the smartphone get taken out? What's my kid being exposed to?

[John DeLoney]

Or worse? Hey, let's play a game.

[Annie]

Yeah.

[John DeLoney]

And that friend's 17 and your kid's 12.

[Annie]

Yep.

[John DeLoney]

Let's play a game. And now we're in a big mess. Right? So I don't feel any sort of hypocrisy. Number one, I. Again, this is easy for me to say, right? If other parents don't like me, I'm okay with that. I have my friends. Or if they don't understand me, I. If they want to ask me, I'll be happy to explain it, but I have no problem saying yeah. As for me, in my house, we don't do X, Y, and Z. And by the way, most of my friends give their kids smartphones, and they know my stance on smartphones. Every friend I have has a credit card, and they know that I don't. I opted out of the credit system. Right.

[Annie]

Yeah.

[John DeLoney]

Every friend I have is a Ford family, and I drive Toyota. Right. So like I was just saying in another episode, one of my best friends on the planet is a banker. And other than this show, I co host a show about getting people out of debt. Every day I go to work trying to get people to not use my best friend's business. And every day he goes to work and tries to convince people that I'm a goofball and we still love each other. Right? So I don't feel like I need to explain my values. I will if somebody asks about them, but if you don't like my values. You're so dumb. And that's super great. I'm not going to lose sleep over you. You don't get a vote in my life. And so one of my values for my kids is I want them in not, not risky situations. When people, when, when we do have sleepovers at our house, dude, they're out in the woods. I don't know where they are. I know they're not in a city playing, playing, playing chicken in the middle of the highway like I used to, but I know they're in the woods and they're probably playing some form of chicken because that's what they do. But it's probably. I bet you won't jump in that huge hole in that creek or whatever. I'm okay with a broken leg. I'm not okay with a kid getting blasted across the highway. Right. You know what I'm saying? So, like, I'm not about not taking risks. I'll see him climbing trees or sword fighting each other with crazy. Like, I'm not about that. I'm all about that. This is gonna sound crazy. I think kids need more broken hands and fingers and arms. Like they're, they're not risk anything. It's. It's that I will and control the safety environment, and that's for me. And so as for me in my house, I know that when people are at my house, they don't have access to the WI fi and they won't have access to smartphones. And I know that there's not going to be some buddies, friends, other brothers, sisters, cousins show up that suddenly says, hey, y' all want to play a game? I control that. And over time, if there's one or two families or three families that you begin to trust there, I'm all cool with that.

[Annie]

Yeah. Yeah. We do have an exception where, you know, we don't have family close by. And so we have, you know, a family at church that we share the same values and we have let both of our boys go over and stay at their house. And that's always, that's mostly for us, like if there's ever an emergency where they need to stay somewhere they feel comfortable there.

[John DeLoney]

Sure.

[Annie]

So we have that exception. It could be fun too.

[John DeLoney]

It could be fun too. Right? It can be fun too. But it's kind of like when your kid turns like 13, 14. I don't know. I don't want to become the movie police, but I let my, my 14 year old and I, we watched Tombstone the other night. It's one of the greatest movies ever. And that doesn't mean that he gets to watch every rated R movie that ever went out there. Yeah, I get to curate it. I'm his dad.

[Annie]

Yeah, Right.

[John DeLoney]

And so all that to say is, you don't owe an apology to anybody. Your 12 year old is supposed. If. Let me, let me say this as boldly as I can. If your 12 year old likes you all the time, you're probably not parenting.

[Annie]

Well, yeah, true.

[John DeLoney]

Right. The. The research says firm parenting with love. I will hold very firm boundaries, very high expectations, and you will always know that I love you to the end of time. Overly permissive parents destroy their kids. Overly critical, overly strict parents with no connection or love destroy their kids. It's the one in the middle.

[Annie]

Yeah. Mm.

[John DeLoney]

But I can't give you, I can't give you any peace on your 12 year old getting mad and going to bed.

[Annie]

Yeah.

[John DeLoney]

Especially when he, when he says this. Tell me he says this. I'm not gonna have any friends. Nobody calls me anymore because I can't do anything. You guys are keeping me from having any sort of friends and I'm lonely, all that.

[Annie]

Uh huh. Yeah. Yeah. We've compromised where we will let him go when it's a weekend and his buddies are together and we'll go and pick him up at like you said, 11 o' clock night. And he just gets frustrated that we're taking him from and yeah, we're just, we're so firm and really wanting to stick to our guns on protecting him. So.

[John DeLoney]

Yeah, I don't know if protecting, I guess that. That. I guess that's the right word for some reason when you said that, it rubs me the wrong way. I don't know that it's protecting them as much as it's my job to make sure they remain as much as possible in environments where they can make successful choices.

[Annie]

Yeah, Yeah.

[John DeLoney]

I don't want to. My goal isn't to make all the choices for my kids. My goal is, especially when they're younger. And of course, this, this increasingly opens up as I get older. I want to make sure that I'm curating environments where they. If they make a wrong choice, it ends in a broken arm, not a pregnancy. It ends in somebody, I don't know, falling out of a tree and breaking their foot or their ankle and not them having to go see a sexual abuse counselor 15 years later or seeing things in their mind that they can never unsee.

[Annie]

Yeah.

[John DeLoney]

Right. So I'm not gonna pick the movie for them. But I'm gonna make sure that I. It's like. It's like vor dire. And for jury selection, I'm not gonna pick the movie I'll watch, but I'm gonna get rid of these because you're not watching those. Right. So I just want to give them environments where they can make successful choices. And after 11 o' clock, I mean, really, the only thing to do is to watch a movie you're not supposed to watch or stay up so late that you're useless the next day.

[Annie]

Yep.

[John DeLoney]

You're 12. You know what I mean? Yeah. When you're college, make those choices. Knock your lights out.

[Annie]

Yeah. For sure.

[John DeLoney]

So I. I think you're on the right path. You've got my stamp of approval. You're a good mom, good dad. Stick to your guns.

[Annie]

Awesome. Thank you.

[John DeLoney]

And when your kid doesn't like you, I think it's fair to say. I know this is the worst. I know it. It's the worst.

[Annie]

Yeah.

[John DeLoney]

And you are right to be frustrated with us. And you're right to feel like we were taking away everything. I totally get that. Feel free to tell your friends that we're the worst. But my job is to keep you safe and put you in positions where you can make the best choices.

[Annie]

Yep. I like that you don't love me.

[John DeLoney]

You're. You're okay. Right?

[Renee]

Okay.

[Annie]

Yeah.

[John DeLoney]

And I'll leave you with this. I won't say which kid, because I think some of my kid. Both my kids are getting old enough now where their friends are like, is your dad on? Right. But my wife and I took a long walk the other night, and it was a bummer because we have to hold. We were doing something pretty cool. And we've got to hold one of our kids accountable, which means we have a really cool thing planned. And they're not gonna be able to do it. And it actually bums us out because doing it with them would have been the best. And my wife was Dr. Deloney long before me. She's been. She's. She's a maestro with K12 kids. And I do this for a living. And we still had to walk around the neighborhood for a couple of miles just both talking out loud, but we were really circling grief. I don't want to hold him accountable. I don't want to hold her accountable. I just want to blow it off. And that would be. That would be dishonoring and not loving my son and my daughter. Right.

[Annie]

Right.

[John DeLoney]

So just know it's never gonna feel good, but Often doing the right thing doesn't feel good, but we do it because it's right. So high five to you, Annie and parents. If you're like, oh, it's, who cares? Just sleep over. Times have changed. Times have changed. We'll be right back. Hey, here's a quick word about the best mattresses in the world. Helix. Spring is here. And that means the darkness and the cold are finally lifting and we can get back into the swing of life. Spring break, summer plans. I feel like I'm coming back alive. So let's all reset. Most of us have already blown our resolutions, and so let's reset and make today day one for a great year. And at the top of the list of the reset. Great sleep. Great sleep is the foundation for everything in our lives. And this is where my friends at Helix come in. I've slept on everything. Cheap mattresses, bad hotel mattresses, hunting camp, sleep pads, overpriced mattresses, you name it. But when I switched to my Helix mattress, literally everything changed. I fall asleep faster, I sleep deeper, and I wake up feeling restored, rested, and ready to go. And because every person is different, Helix has a mattress designed for everyone. Side sleepers, back sleepers. You sleep hot. Does your spine need a little extra care? Whatever it is, they've got you covered. Take the Helix sleep quiz in just two minutes and you'll find the perfect mattress for you. And Helix will give you 100 nights to try it out risk free. And right now, my audience gets 27% off site wide plus a free bedding bundle with any luxe or elite mattress purchase. Go to helix sleep.com deloney right now and if you get a post purchase survey, tell them you heard about Helix mattresses right here on this show. That's Helix Sleep. H E L I X S L E P helixsleep.com Deloney with Helix Better sleep starts right now. All right, we are back for a money and marriage question. These are questions that were people submitted for the money marriage retreat. We just got back from a cruise. A big chunk of us went. Me and my. My network colleagues went out and Rachel Cruz and I did a version of money marriage on a cruise ship. It was awesome, man. But here is a money marriage question. This is a real question that somebody submitted. Is there such thing as having too much sex? No. Tada. Feel like I nailed that one. Feel like I just crushed it. You are brilliant. If you're having sex that you don't want to be having, that's a problem. If you're having Sex in a marriage and you're being coerced or your partner says you have to, or the Bible says you have to, or I get what I. That's a problem. But if you two are like again today. Yep. Want to go for three? Yep. Rock on to the break of dawn. Does that sound right, Kelly? Yeah, sounds great. As long as you're not being coerced or trying to. Everything I say sounds inappropriate here, but you're trying to substitute that for something else. That there's a problem. You're using sex as a Xanax. Yeah. Or is it a way to keep somebody at bay or to keep somebody from bothering you? Right. Or solving a problem. You know, band aiding over a problem. But otherwise. Yeah. There's a lot of talk in the. In the sex and relationships literature about the orgasm gap that I think it's 40 for women and 90 or something higher for men. I haven't looked at it in a minute. But the. Whenever I teach this, I always go back to if you ate at a restaurant and it was only good, 40% of the time, you would not look forward to going six out of 10 times. The restaurant wasn't good, you wouldn't go if the restaurant was great 90 of the time and it was fine. That other time, you would go all the time. And so sometimes when it comes to if we're having too much sex, it's people have figured out that orgasm gap. And people have figured out like, oh, if we work together on this deal, this could be amazing. So. No. And by the way, outside of a sexless marriage where, where there's a gap between desire, where people are having, not having the conversations, and one person's weaponizing sex. I would go as far as to say if you are intimate, meaning you're connected, you have skin on skin time. If y' all are proximal, you're sitting, you sit by each other, you nuzzle up to each other on the couch. I would also say there doesn't have to be a floor on a bare minimum of sex you need to be having. If you both are saying, no, no, this is, this is the world that we want and this is the one that we are co creating. Where it gets to be a problem is when there's mix match desire. But on its face, is there such thing as having too much sex? Nope. If y' all are both in, both consenting and both ready to rock on till the break of dawn. Rock onto the break of dawn. That's it. Money marriage. Come see us in November if you're wondering. Yes, we talk about this and so, so, so much more. Have a conversation with your partner about sex. What do you like? What do you not like? Do we have enough? Are we having it too much? What's one thing you want to try? What's one thing that makes you nervous? How can I love you more? I feel like you're coercing. I feel like I have to. I feel like this is a duty. Those are some good conversation starters. Love you guys. Bye.