My Wife Left the Church (and Wants Me to Leave Too)

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Dr. John DeLoney Show Episode: My Wife Left the Church (and Wants Me to Leave Too)
Release Date: May 26, 2025
Host/Author: Ramsey Network
Duration: Approximately 50 minutes

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Overview

In this episode of The Dr. John DeLoney Show, host John DeLoney addresses a poignant and emotionally charged call from Stephen, an Atlanta resident grappling with his wife’s decision to leave their long-standing church—and implicitly, their marital harmony. The discussion delves deep into the complexities of differing spiritual beliefs within a marriage, effective communication, and strategies for couples to navigate such transformative challenges.

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Stephen's Dilemma: Wife Leaving the Church (00:05 - 03:49)

Stephen reaches out to John DeLoney seeking guidance after a tumultuous year in his marriage. After twelve years of active involvement in their church, Stephen's wife declared her desire to leave the congregation, citing negative experiences that have since strained their relationship.

Key Points:

• Duration of Church Involvement: 12 years (02:34)
• Reason for Leaving: Wife felt unheard, unseen, and used within the church (04:29)
• Stephen’s Concern: Fear that his wife harbors negative feelings towards him similar to her feelings about the church (05:06)

Notable Quote:

Stephen (02:10): "My wife let me know that she no longer wanted to attend the church that we've been going to. I just feel like she might share those same feelings towards me."

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Dr. DeLoney’s Response: Understanding and Empathy (03:49 - 10:40)

John begins by clarifying the importance of distinguishing between a spouse's lived experience and a mere point of view. He emphasizes that Stephen's wife is expressing genuine feelings stemming from her experiences, not just opinions.

Key Advice:

• Acknowledge Lived Experiences: Recognize and validate his wife's feelings without diminishing them (05:05 - 05:17)
• Active Listening: Instead of debating her viewpoint, listen attentively to understand her emotional state (05:17 - 10:40)
• Avoiding Assumptions: Stephen worries his wife might judge him for not sharing her negative church experiences. John advises against assuming her feelings towards him based on church sentiments.

Notable Quotes:

John DeLoney (05:05): "Stop referring to your wife's lived experience as her 'point of view.'"

John DeLoney (05:17): "Tell me more or I'm sorry that it hurts like this..."

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Navigating Communication and Rebuilding Trust (10:40 - 18:19)

John shares his personal experience of his wife attending church without him and how it affected their relationship. He underscores the necessity of open and honest conversations about shared values and beliefs.

Key Strategies:

• Heart-to-Heart Conversations: Encourage setting aside time to discuss and understand each other's beliefs and feelings about the church (12:03 - 13:08)
• Mutual Agreement: Agree to support each other’s spiritual journeys, even if it means attending different churches (14:09 - 17:12)
• Grieving Together: Acknowledge the loss of shared experiences and work through the emotional impacts as a couple (18:13 - 18:19)

Notable Quotes:

John DeLoney (12:03): "There is, for married couples to sit down and have the values and beliefs conversation."

John DeLoney (16:55): "Could we come to an agreement that this season of our life is over, and I'm going to do a better job of listening to your lived experiences?"

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Rebuilding the Marriage: Moving Forward Together (18:19 - 31:38)

The conversation transitions into actionable steps Stephen can take to mend his marriage. John encourages Stephen to express his regrets and demonstrate a commitment to understanding his wife's perspective.

Actionable Steps:

• Expressing Apologies: Acknowledge past mistakes without being defensive (14:09 - 17:12)
• Listening with Empathy: Prioritize understanding over responding during discussions (17:11 - 18:19)
• Setting Boundaries and Grieving: Work together to redefine their relationship and create a new path forward (18:19 - 31:38)

Notable Quotes:

John DeLoney (17:11): "And you get the whole tenor. That thing shifts. And that's not mean."

John DeLoney (31:26): "Then you, brother, have to deal with the heartbreak that your mom is choosing that over her son, over her, over her daughters, over her grandkids."

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Additional Caller Discussions (31:38 - 50:30)

Beyond Stephen's case, the episode includes interactions with other callers facing diverse relational challenges, such as Daniel dealing with his mother's controversial dating choices post the passing of his stepfather, and Amber seeking advice on managing resentment towards her brother and mother. Dr. DeLoney provides tailored advice, emphasizing boundaries, effective communication, and personal responsibility in relationships.

Key Highlights:

• Daniel’s Struggle: Coping with his mother's decision to date a married man shortly after his stepfather’s death (23:19 - 31:38)
• Amber’s Challenge: Living with her brother and addressing their differing household responsibilities while managing resentment towards their mother’s parenting style (37:00 - 46:24)

Notable Quotes:

Daniel (23:19): "My mom started going on, like, dates with different men, like, about three months after he had passed."

John DeLoney (41:05): "And sometimes I'll say, please, just know I'm always grateful, but we've got to do this together."

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Conclusion

Throughout the episode, Dr. John DeLoney emphasizes the importance of empathy, active listening, and open communication in resolving marital and familial conflicts. By addressing Stephen’s fears and providing practical advice, John offers listeners insights into maintaining healthy relationships amidst differing beliefs and life challenges.

Final Thoughts:

• Commitment to Marriage: Both partners must be willing to work together, set aside personal biases, and prioritize their relationship.
• Seeking Professional Help: Dr. DeLoney encourages listeners to consider professional counseling when navigating complex emotional landscapes.

Closing Quote:

John DeLoney (46:23): "That's where you can be as a loving sister. And you've got three years in 'real world' ahead of him."

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Note: This summary excludes advertisement segments and non-content related sections to focus solely on the valuable discussions and advice provided during the episode.

Transcript

[Stephen]

My wife let me know that she no longer wanted to attend the church that we've been going to. I just feel like she might share.

[John DeLoney]

Those same feelings towards me.

[Stephen]

Right. That she has of this former church of ours. That is a negative experience for her.

[John DeLoney]

The words coming out of my mouth are going to be harsh. I want you to know I'm, I, I'm sitting right here with you. Okay. What's up? What's up? What's up? This is John with the Dr. John DeLoney show coming to you live with a world on fire, trying to be a voice of compassion and reason in a world obsessed with just screaming at everybody. And it feels like all the grown ups are sitting in the sandbox throwing sand at each other and saying, I'm going to take my ball and go home. And the rest of us are trying to figure out how to pay for eggs and try to keep our kids safe and trying to figure out what AI mean. Like we're just trying to figure out how to do life, how to be married anymore. And so cutting through all the noise, getting in under the smoke and sitting with you here, just pull up a chair trying to figure out what's the next right move for your marriage, your mental and emotional health. For 20 plus years, more than two decades now, I've been sitting with hurting people regardless of what's going on. I've literally sat in people's front yard and held them while we watched their house burn down. Sometimes I feel like that's what we're doing. That's what I'm doing on the show. I'm gonna sit with you and help you figure out what's the next right move for you, for your family, for your kids, for your friends, wherever you find your. If you want to be on the show, I'd love to have you. JohnDalony.com ask. We used to have a toll free number and then the, the Utes were like, what's toll free mean? And what's a phone? We, we talk into it. So anyway, just go to the website johndalony.com Ask A S K and you can fill out the form. It goes right to her Highness Kelly and she puts together the show and if she picks you, she'll hollaback girl at you even though she ain't no hollaback girl. Let's go to Atlanta, talk to Stephen with a pH. The way it's supposed to be. What's up, Stephen?

[Stephen]

Hey John, thanks for taking my call.

[John DeLoney]

You got it, brother. What's up?

[Stephen]

Yeah, so had a real tough year this past year. My wife and I are struggling through a transition, and we're trying to understand what can I do next. So about a year ago, my wife let me know that she no longer wanted to attend the church that we've been going to for the entirety of our marriage.

[John DeLoney]

How long is that?

[Stephen]

12 years. We've been going to this.

[John DeLoney]

Go ahead.

[Stephen]

Oh, yeah. So we've been going to this church heavily involved. It's been a bedrock of our. Of our lives and our marriage and our kids. And then she don't. She said, you know, that's. That's no longer something she wanted to do. And it took a minute for me to kind of accept that. And really now where I'm struggling is trying to. I'm wrestling with the fact that she has, you know, such a negative viewpoint of a former church of ours and is still very much involved in seeking out others who kind of share in that negative viewpoint. And I can't help but think that she might some way look down on me because I haven't seen the same viewpoint that she has or, you know, it isn't a. I just feel like she might share those same feelings towards me. Right. That she has of this former church of ours. That is a negative experience for her.

[John DeLoney]

How is she articulated or what is she articulating specifically about why she left that church, why she wants to disassociate herself from it?

[Stephen]

I think a lot of it came from what she viewed as how people were treated. I didn't see the same things that she saw, but, you know, there was a very conservative viewpoint.

[John DeLoney]

And so are these women. Were these. Yes. Gay and lesbian folks? Were these children? Were these like.

[Stephen]

Yeah. I think she's had a really hard time with what she perceived, how women were treated.

[John DeLoney]

Okay.

[Stephen]

And, you know, I can. I can sympathize with that, but I didn't see the same thing. I'm obviously not a woman, so I didn't see those things. I didn't experience those things, but I didn't, you know, I didn't see her point of view. And now I. I struggle with the fact that because I didn't come with her or see the same things that she saw, you know, she might look down on me for that.

[John DeLoney]

So I'm. I'm going to change the language here. So, sure, the words coming out of my mouth are going to be harsh.

[Stephen]

Okay.

[John DeLoney]

I want you to know I'm. I. I'm sitting right here with you. Okay. I'm using your experience to speak to a broader audience. Listening. Is that cool? Yeah.

[Stephen]

Yeah, do it.

[John DeLoney]

Okay, so I want you to stop referring to your wife's lived experience as her quote unquote point of view. A point of view is an opinion on what I would call a benign topic or a, it could be a malignant topic. That's probably the wrong word there. But I have a point of view on whether my old beat up tundra is a good truck and somebody else may have a point of view that that truck is not good. Right. Your wife has a lived experience. And what I have learned over the years is my opinion over what another person is experiencing inside their body and in their chest is. Doesn't matter. What matters is that when somebody says here is how I am, I experience this thing that I pull up a seat and say tell me more or I'm sorry that it hurts like this. And as you said, you said it. Well, I, I don't have your same experience. A good example is I don't think I'm a loud, tall, tattooed up 6 foot 2 male that trained with professional fight team for several years. It doesn't. I don't think twice about walking through a, a parking garage. My wife can't breathe, right. And so if when she tells me when she gets in the car and exhales, I'm like what are you doing? Well, she wouldn't do it with me. But if she gets in the car and says hey, I just wanted to tell you I just got in the car after I would be like, what are you talking about? You know, there's no crimes in this. Like I would start going at her as though it was her viewpoint, as though I'm arguing about this. The shocks on my truck, it's a good truck, it's got 200000 miles but it's a good engine. And that I would be approaching it there instead of listening and saying hey, that walk from here to there. I am a 115 pound five foot four female. Anybody, a middle schooler can take me down, right? Like there's just a different lived experience. And yeah, and so it's pulling up a and saying I don't have that lived experience. I would love to hear more. That's number one. Okay, now for those people who are banging on the dashboard of their car or getting mad at me, about to skip this call, I want to call out. You can have a lived experience and choose to pull yourself out of that lived experience. But when you choose to seek out other people and based in it just sit in it like it's a hot tub and gossip about it and write about it and scream about it. Not as though we're trying to change the lived experience, but as though our identity is now in not solving a problem, not helping the women who are there, but just blech. Then that's unhelpful, too. Right? And so I think it's right to say, hey, honey, I blew this. You came to me a year ago and said this is what you were feeling inside your own chest, and I tried to come at you with a graph and a spreadsheet. I'm sorry, that's not what you were saying. You were saying you were going to a church that for a decade and a half, you didn't feel heard, you didn't feel seen, you felt used. Whatever words she's used. Right. And those are just words I've heard of women in. In certain churches. I didn't hear you. I'd love to hear your experience. That's number one. Okay. And you will never be able to feel her lived experience because many churches were made for you and me. They weren't made for our wives. Right. In fact, the opposite. So we have that conversation. Right. The second one is then her choosing to go back and drink poison, hoping somebody else dies is of no value to your home. And so that's a thing that she can opt out of, right?

[Stephen]

Yeah.

[John DeLoney]

Unless she wants to start a. Like a recovery. Like, if she wants to put some action into the world to make the world a better place, great. If she wants to be a part of protests in front of the church, great. But just sitting around gossiping and complaining about it is, in and of itself, its own problem. Get what I'm saying?

[Stephen]

Yeah. Yeah.

[John DeLoney]

Tell me about the story you've created that now she thinks you are one of those guys. Is that true or is that just a story you're telling yourself?

[Stephen]

You know, it's. It's very likely a story I'm just telling myself.

[John DeLoney]

Have you asked her?

[Stephen]

Yes.

[John DeLoney]

What'd she say?

[Stephen]

That. No, she doesn't think that.

[John DeLoney]

I.

[Stephen]

But, yeah, I guess it's. It's a story I'm telling myself. I can't. I can't. Rational. And this is, you know, maybe a problem of my own, but I can't rationalize the thought process of having all of this negativity towards something, this church, that I'm, you know, a part of, necessarily. And how could she not share that with. Towards me? But, you know, as you said, she has said she Doesn't. But I just. I can't get over that story that I'm telling myself that it's. She's linking that with me as well.

[John DeLoney]

Gotcha. So here's how I'd approach this in my house. And by the way, my wife went to church for years without me. I didn't believe in the whole thing. I blew the whole thing off.

[Stephen]

Yeah.

[John DeLoney]

And then when we had kids, when Hank came along, my son came along. I wasn't fully there yet. I wasn't all the way back. And I went because I didn't want to be that dad who stayed at home other. My. His wife and their kid went to church. So I just went. And that ended up being my path back, which was good. There's been seasons when I went to a different church because sometimes I don't want to be. I just. I'm on a Sunday morning, and I don't have the stomach for someone just to get up there and yell at me or lecture me. And I have found amazing peace walking into an ornate Catholic church and just listening to the singing and the chanting and the exhale and the. The ritual of it. And I'm not Catholic. Right. And there's been other times when. Fill in the blank film. I need a group of guys, and we all go sit in the woods and we sit on a camp, like, so. Whatever. The thing is, all I have to say is this a really important exercise when it comes to faith and theology and spirituality and all those things. Whatever words you want to use, there is for married couples to sit down and have the values and beliefs conversation. You ever heard me talk about this?

[Stephen]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely.

[John DeLoney]

Okay. So sitting down and saying, okay. As for us, in our household, we believe in a higher power. We believe in God, we believe in Jesus, we believe in boot, like, whatever you want to say. As for us, this is where we are putting an anchor in. And then when it comes to how that is lived out, I want my wife to have different beliefs than me. It makes things more. It makes things less convenient. But I'm not. I don't want to have a life at the end of. I don't want to die and be like, man, my life was really convenient. I want to have a life where I felt like I was sharpened as sharp as I could be. And that comes from sitting with people who have different thoughts and ideas and whatever. And somebody's always going to have to exhale when they walk into a church. I don't like the band. I don't like the Singer, I don't like the preacher. I don't like the Sunday school. Like, that's just life, right?

[Stephen]

Yeah.

[John DeLoney]

And you just, you go and you make that part of your life. So having that conversation can be really instructive.

[Stephen]

Yeah, no, And I'll say I've been wanting to have that conversation. Quite honestly, I've been scared to up until now. Just because every conversation around those sorts of topics has been a struggle for us.

[John DeLoney]

Where's that? Tell me about the struggle.

[Stephen]

I think I have just viewed the conversations as, you know, she. Because I see her in this Seeking the poison, as you were alluding to. Every conversation has been a negative conversation of. And maybe that's the problem. Maybe that's what I need to do is really approach it as, where do we have common ground? And that's one thing we haven't done yet.

[John DeLoney]

Or choose this frame. Okay, so if you, if you. Is there any chance you're going to get divorced?

[Stephen]

No, I mean, we really don't want to. We've been saying that from the beginning that, no, that's not an avenue. We want to try.

[John DeLoney]

Okay, So I make this work. Let's assume that we're making this thing work. There's no off. There's no exit ramp. There's no off ramp. Okay.

[Stephen]

Yes.

[John DeLoney]

So if you were to take her out and say, I want to take you out to a long breakfast tomorrow morning. And she said, okay, and you sat down and you said, I blew it. What are you talking about? I blew it. What? And I don't know how often you say I'm sorry or I was wrong. Some men say it a lot, some men never say it. So you may blow her mind just saying that, or that may be something she hears regularly. But if you say, you came to me 10 years ago, you came to me five years ago, you came to me two years ago, and you were telling me about a lived experience as a woman, and I came at you with a Bible verse and a chart and a graph. I didn't listen to you and I blew it. I'm sorry. A. Once she picks her jaw off the floor. If you then followed up with, I came at you with judgment on your ideas, on your thoughts, etc, and I just want to be curious. Would you honor me by just letting me sit here and listen to your lived experience? And you may have heard all this before, but her spirit might be one of not trying to convince you, but it might be one of talking with you, not at, but with. And then when you have this conversation it might be 10 minutes, it might be two hours. If you ask yourself curious questions. Ask her curious questions. Why? Also tell me about that. Like, how does that feel? Like, what. When this happened, like, what was going through your mind? You must have felt so lonely with me sitting there just going, yeah, like, have that conversation. Like, and. And this is the old. Do your best to walk a mile in her shoes. And at the end of the conversation say, I've got something that's weighing on me. Is it okay if. Is this a good time for me to bring it up? Sure. Yeah. I recognize that I. I didn't hear you in your lived experience. And yet I feel like this bad experience, you've left it, but you took pictures of it. Not pictures, like photographs, but you took picture pictures of it like water, and you put it in a fridge and you just drink it every morning.

[Stephen]

Yeah.

[John DeLoney]

Is there. Could we come to an agreement that this season of our life is over, and I'm going to do a better job of listening to your lived experiences? I want us both to agree to stop drinking poison, hoping somebody else changes their behavior.

[Stephen]

Yeah.

[John DeLoney]

And you get the whole tenor. That thing shifts. And that's not mean. You may not agree with the way she's interpreting scriptures. You may not agree with when she says, here's my experience. You may be like, I don't get that at all. It's. Bro, it's a parking garage. Only in. In horror movies, there's somebody with a hat. Doesn't matter because I'm not 5 4. Right. Like, I'll never know that experience. But what I can say is, as for us, do we still both believe in God? Yes. Do we still both believe in the practice of getting up most of the time and going to a third place to church to say hi to other hurting people and say, us, too. Right. Do we still believe in that? Cool. Then let's figure out what box we want to walk into, and let's do that one together. And then you, brother, have to grieve, man. You had. You had a decade and a half with the church, and you may find that it was really formative for you. It was not formative for her.

[Daniel]

Sure.

[John DeLoney]

And that's just. The whole thing is just humbling. Right?

[Stephen]

Yeah, absolutely.

[John DeLoney]

My hope for you all is that y' all spend some time in tears together and that you are honest about. I'm gonna start trying to hear for your lived experience. I'm gonna trust you because I'm not in your skin, I'm not in your body. I trust your lived experience and that if you need my help or you want my opinion on something, you'll ask me. And that you know that I'm never going to give up on you. I'm never going to give up on this marriage. So I'm here. I'm here. I'd love to hear what happens, man. Let us know. Thanks for the call, my brother. All right, when we come back, we talk to a woman who is in shock over her mother in law's decisions. We'll be right back. Yo, listen, I understand the struggle. You're juggling work, parenting, eating right and a million other things. You're tired and you're wired and exhausted all at the same time. And you're trying to hold everything together. I get it. But there are some small daily choices that all of us can make to feel a little more clear headed and a little less anxious so we can show up and be steady and strong and whole for the people we love. For me, one of those little choices I make every single day includes using Organifi juices and gummies. Organifi products are great because they don't just support your physical health, they contribute to mental clarity and emotional balance too. Organifi offers a range of organic superfood blends that are super easy to fit into your daily routine even when you're on the go. I travel a lot and I always have Organifi travel packs with me. You just mix them with water and they're ready to rock and roll. I love Organifi's green juice for a great start in the morning and I love their red juice for caffeine free energy in the morning and in the afternoon. And of course I love the Sheila Jet and the creatine and the Happy drop gummies. I love gummies and I love love healthy gummies for a delicious take on important nutrients. Good folks. Organifi makes it simple to take proactive steps towards better health. Go to Organifi.com DeLoney and use code DeLoney to save 20% off. That's Organifi.com DeLoney go check them out. All right, we all know this, but I'm going to say it again anyway. A strong body supports a healthy mind. And too often we overlook how connected our minds and our bodies actually are. Neglecting our bodies like not moving, not lifting weights, not getting more flexible can lead to increased mental and emotional stress. And I often tell folks I have never felt worse about myself after a good workout, only better. And this is where my friends at Trainwell Comes in. Trainwell offers tailored workouts with step by step guidance from real people. Meaning it's not just an app and it's not a personal trainer. It's. It's the best of both. To get started with Train well, you just answer a few questions about your fitness journey, hop on a chat with an expert trainer to talk about your goals and make a personalized plan, and then it's time for you to go get to work. As you complete workouts, your trainer will keep tweaking them to help you get even better. I've used it. My wife uses it. Kelly used it. Now I've got some family members and friends using it. Everyone's getting in on Train well and they've been doing these workouts because Train well takes away our excuses and makes working out easy. If you're ready to start taking control of your health, take the quiz today to find your perfect trainer. And right now, TrainWell has a special offer for my audience. Just 89 bucks a month when you lock in your plan, plus 14 days of free training. Go to trainwell.netdolon Right now, that's R A I N trainwell.net Deloney Orlando, Florida. Let's talk to Amber. What's up, Amber?

[Amber]

Hi. How are you doing?

[John DeLoney]

I am trying to figure out what day it is. I hope you're doing well. Hang on here. I'm going to bring in your husband Daniel. Let's see. Daniel in the lion's den. What's up, Daniel?

[Daniel]

Hey, how you doing, John?

[John DeLoney]

I'm doing fantastic. All right, so which one of you, Amber or Daniel? Which one of you sent in your question?

[Amber]

I did, but then my husband wanted to join the call that's actually gonna ask the question first.

[John DeLoney]

All right. I love it. Let it rip.

[Daniel]

Okay, so some little backstory here. My stepfather, he passed away very unexpectedly back in January 24th.

[John DeLoney]

I'm sorry.

[Daniel]

And, yeah, thank you.

[John DeLoney]

What was his name?

[Daniel]

And J.C. j.C.

[John DeLoney]

Good guy.

[Daniel]

Yeah, he was. He was good. He was strong.

[John DeLoney]

That's awesome. I'm sorry you're about your loss, man. I'm glad you got to spend part of your life with him. Sounds like. Sounds like JC Was a good man.

[Daniel]

Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. So my mom started going on, like, dates with different men, like, about three months after he had passed.

[John DeLoney]

Oh, wow.

[Daniel]

One of those men, which she is now dating, was my stepfather's old friend back, like, in high school. So. But the real shocker is, is that he's married and it's kind of been. Been tough going with that. So how do we. Yeah, dude, Boundaries with that.

[John DeLoney]

Golly. Okay, so tell me. J.C. passed away. When?

[Daniel]

Back in January of last year.

[John DeLoney]

Okay, so it's been about a year, but three months after he passes. Your mom's hitting the market already?

[Daniel]

Yeah.

[John DeLoney]

How old is she?

[Daniel]

She's 58.

[John DeLoney]

That feels fast, man.

[Daniel]

Yeah.

[John DeLoney]

What were their conversations like? I mean, I don't want to judge anybody's grief. Everybody does grief different, but. Right. Just. If somebody were to call me, I would say take six months before you hop into anything. What were the conversations like when you found out she was already dating again?

[Daniel]

Oh, boy. So it was kind of. Excuse me. So I would kind of hear it from my sister, and my older sister knows my mom the most. And now I'm starting to see my mom in a different light because she has. Has done this habitual. Had. Has done this habitually in. In her past with, actually, my dad. And that's how I got my stepfather.

[John DeLoney]

Oh, she cheated on your bio dad?

[Daniel]

Yeah.

[John DeLoney]

Okay. And when did they divorce?

[Daniel]

So when I was maybe like.

[John DeLoney]

I.

[Daniel]

Don'T know, maybe like six, maybe closer to ten, around that range.

[John DeLoney]

Who were you. Who were you most angry at during the divorce? Did you know about your mom back then or did you blame Dad?

[Daniel]

I did not. I did not. And again, I see, like, my mom in a different light because she keeps stuff hidden from me the most instead of my sisters. My sisters, I guess, has seen when they were growing up and in their teenage years that they. They seen my mom doing all this stuff. And they know, and they know the kind of woman she is. But with me, it was like I saw her so differently and that, honestly, I was kind of like a spoiled, spoiled child. But now that I see my mom in a different light.

[John DeLoney]

How old are you?

[Daniel]

I'm 26.

[John DeLoney]

So for 20 years, you didn't know that it was actually your mom that blew up your household as a little kid, and then not only did she blow it up, she wallpapered over it with. Just showering you with gifts and love and affection. Are you the youngest?

[Daniel]

Yeah.

[John DeLoney]

Okay, so you were just the baby boy, and two decades later, you're finding out. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. So here. Here's what I would suggest. I would suggest if you're not there yet, it may go. It usually goes from disbelief, like, to what? To a rage that you don't know you're going to be able to control. Do you have any relationship with your bio dad?

[Daniel]

Yeah. Yeah, we're. Our relationship's good.

[John DeLoney]

Have you talked to him about this?

[Daniel]

For my whole life, yeah. He knows. Yeah, he knows very well.

[John DeLoney]

And have y' all talked to him about the affair? What blew up the. The marriage when you were a kid?

[Daniel]

It was. I think it was really the cheating.

[John DeLoney]

That's what I mean. But have you talked to your. Your bio dad about that?

[Daniel]

About the past, is what you're saying?

[John DeLoney]

Yeah, about the affair and all that that caused the divorce.

[Daniel]

I guess I never have.

[John DeLoney]

Okay. It may be worth. May not be, but it may be worth it to sit down with him one day and say, dad, this is gonna be hard for you. Will you tell me the story of what happened when I was 4, 5 and 6? I'm finding stuff out about mom and my sisters are telling me stuff. I just like what happened. And he may say, you know what? Bygones are bygones. I don't want to go back through all that stuff. You don't need to hear that. I'm not going to talk bad about your mom, yada. He may do all that and would be honorable and cool, or he may say, hey, yeah, I'll tell you. So, Amber, hearing this, what's going through your mind? Why did you initially reach out?

[Amber]

Just because we are trying to figure out what kind of boundaries to set with her. And I see it's really making my husband struggle. He doesn't really know what to do. Yeah, he's trying to lead us in the best way, but doesn't really know what that relationship looks like now with her.

[John DeLoney]

What do you all want it to look like?

[Amber]

That's what we're not sure.

[John DeLoney]

I mean, so I've got. I've got friends. I've got friends that make decisions in their lives, values wise and beliefs wise, very different than me. They're still my friends. Right. I still love them. I still love their kids. I still love their husbands and their wives. Like I care about them. But very, very different lives. And there's people who just make decisions that I'm like, hey, I'm gonna. I'm distancing myself from that. And all that's more complicated because this is Daniel's mother, right? This is your mother in law. It makes it hard, but can y' all go with a straight face while she's dating a married man? Or is that one where you guys are drawing a line? If. If my dad died. I'm just trying to put myself in your position. If my dad died and then three months from now my mom was dating one of his friends who was still married yeah, I'd have a real problem with that. I just think character still means something, and I think integrity still means something.

[Daniel]

Yeah, I. I agree. You know, there's been times where I've gone with my older sister, and we've talked to her about how we feel, and it's like she kind of brushes it off, and there's been some hurt that she's actually expressed her, you know, her true feelings. Like. And I'm just gonna sum it up like, you know, I don't care what you guys think, and I'm just gonna do what I want to do.

[John DeLoney]

Okay? So hold on. Hold on. Don't. Don't blow over that. In many ways, that's all you need to know. Hey, mom. You're making decisions that are gonna have ramifications for you, for our family. And I know you're lonely. I know you're heartbroken. All these things, me and my sister, you. You raised us better than this.

[Daniel]

Yeah.

[John DeLoney]

She looks at you and says, I don't give a crap what you say. I'm gonna do whatever I want. What she's telling you is, I don't want your opinions. I don't want your judgments. I don't want anything. And so what she's also saying is, if. If a value or a boundary you and Amber have is that I'm a person of good moral character, and I don't sleep with your. Your. My ex husband's married friend, then I'm opting out of hanging out with you guys. I don't want to be with you. Then.

[Daniel]

Yeah, that's. That's exactly where I am.

[John DeLoney]

Yeah.

[Daniel]

Yeah.

[John DeLoney]

Then you, brother, have to deal with the heartbreak that your mom is choosing that over her son, over her, over her daughters, over her grandkids.

[Daniel]

Yeah. Yeah.

[John DeLoney]

And then you got to realize, oh, she did this when I was six years old. And that's just heartbreaking, man. And, Amber, there's few things harder than a wife sitting by a heartbroken husband and just being present with him.

[Amber]

Yeah, for sure.

[John DeLoney]

That's heartbreak. I mean, there's. There's no easy path through that other than doing a really hard thing. I know A lot of women are like, man, I wish my husband was more vulnerable. And then when moments like this come, it's really hard to sit in that. In that glow. Right in that vulnerable glow. It's scary. And you choosing to be uncomfortable and lean into that and sit close to him, and it just. It just stinks for a while. Just sucks. And then d. Daniel, you and Amber decide Y' all get to decide together. What does moving forward mean? Does this mean if as long as she is continuing to have a sexual relationship with a married man, we're not going to go to Christmas at her house?

[Daniel]

Wow, that's crazy that you say that, dude.

[John DeLoney]

Why is that?

[Daniel]

It is. That's exactly how I feel.

[John DeLoney]

Well, put it down on paper, sit down and say it out loud to your wife. And I think, here's the thing, I think the conversation, I think your feelings towards, I don't want to be around my mom, I don't want to go to Christmas. It's easy to double click on her particular action in this moment. And if she was to call my show, this is going to sound crazy. I would be super compassionate to her if she just lost a 20 year marriage to a great guy, JC and her mind just goes a little bit and she just hits the dating market, tries to find connection. And one of the quickest ways to find connection is through quick sex. And then she finds some connection and some guy tells her some 60 year old man tells her some bill of goods about how he's not really divorced, but they've been separated for a long time and my wife didn't understand me like you understand me. And it just feels good to be in somebody's arms three months after. Like, I get that I would tell her, hey, you're about to blow up everything, but I wouldn't be mad at her. I would be, I would be, I'd be, I'd be heartbroken with her. Right. But I want you to hear what I think you're really heartbroken about is your mom looked at you and said, I don't care about you. And I think that's why you don't want to go spend Christmas with her. Or I do care about you, but I care about you on my terms. But this one's a, this one's a tough one. This one's an odd mix of a grieving widow. Compassion and grief doesn't give us license just to blow up other people's lives and blow up our lives and to make really awful decisions. It's a tough season. At the end of the day, Amber and Daniel, what y' all can control is y' all and the house y' all want to create. So sit down and spend some time grieving that together. The picture you had of life with jc, life with your mother, life with them being great grandparents. Because that picture's gone now. And let's be about seeing and imagining a new picture. Thanks for the call, guys. All right, when we come back, we talk to a woman who is wrestling with her roommate's disgusting habits. We'll be right back. This show is sponsored by Better Help. More and more people are becoming aware of the need to take care of themselves, whether it's finally taking action with their physical health, finally getting some friends to do life with, or finally getting the courage to seek professional mental health support. But when it comes to seeing a therapist, over a quarter of the people surveyed say they avoid getting therapy due to a fear of judgment. And I understand this. I have felt that same judgment before when I finally tried to get up the courage to get help. When people won't get help, it doesn't just affect them. It impacts their families, it impacts workplaces, it impacts their entire communities. The world is better when people are healthy and whole. And if I can be selfish on your behalf for a minute, the world is better when you are healthy and whole. So if you're thinking about trying therapy, contact my friends at Better Help. BetterHelp is 100% online therapy and it's affordable and convenient for your schedule. They have a network of more than 30,000 licensed therapists with a wide range of specialties. BetterHelp has over 10 years of experience matching people with just the right therapist for them. So to get started, you just get online and fill out a short survey and they'll match you with a licensed therapist. And if it's not the right fit, you can switch therapists at any time in easily for no extra cost. Listen, we're all better with help. Visit betterhelp.com DeLoney to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp. H E-L-P.com DeLoney all right, Albany, New York. Let's talk to Nicole. Hey, Nicole, what's up?

[Amber]

Hi, Dr. John. How are you?

[John DeLoney]

I'm doing great. Thanks for hopping on last minute this morning. How are you?

[Amber]

Yeah, of course I'm doing great.

[John DeLoney]

Good deal. So what's up? How can I help?

[Amber]

So I live with my brother and. Yeah, yeah, I'm 24. He's 21. So gross. How do I. Yes. So how do I manage that? He has a higher tolerance to filth than I do. And how can I avoid holding. I know. Yeah. How can I avoid holding resentment towards my mom for raising us differently?

[John DeLoney]

No, no, no, no. Leave your mom this. I mean, if you're mad at your mom. 20. Okay, 21 year olds are disgusting. Yeah, they're just gross. Now there's a whole group of 21 of 30 year old men listening to this, being like, I was clean when I was okay. Good, great. Most of us were disgusting. My. My wife, every time she sees the. My roommate when I was 21, when I was. I was a. A coach and a. And a high school teacher. And my. He's still a great friend. One of my closest friends, his name's T. He was, he was a salesman there in Houston. We lived together. My wife still credits him with raising me because he was actually clean and I was disgusting. Like I was. Dude, I was feral. My mom raised a good kid. She did her best. I was just gross. And I've been around enough. 21 year old. Like 21, they're just gross. Just is.

[Amber]

Yeah.

[John DeLoney]

So let's deal with that problem. So when you. And by the way, how he phrased it so delicately, how did you phrase it? He has a higher tolerance for.

[Amber]

Higher tolerance to fill. Yeah. Well, I just think he knows that, like, if he doesn't take care of it for long enough that I eventually will get sick of it.

[John DeLoney]

You're giving him way too much credit. Yeah, it doesn't even enter his mind.

[Amber]

Yeah.

[John DeLoney]

In college When I was 21, my roommates and I, we would just go to Goodwill and buy new dishes.

[Amber]

Oh, goodness. Really?

[John DeLoney]

Yeah, because it was $4 for like a stack of plates.

[Amber]

And that was instead of cleaning them.

[John DeLoney]

Yep.

[Amber]

But didn't you have to clean them after you got the donator?

[John DeLoney]

Nope, we set them outside. Like, like you have to like. And when I think back to that. That's absurd. That's insane. That's wasteful. It's gross. It's all those things.

[Amber]

Yeah.

[John DeLoney]

The alternative never occurred. I'm not cleaning that. Just go get some four bucks. And by the way, we had no money. We're like splitting nickels and quarters. It just seemed like a better use of our time.

[Amber]

Yeah.

[John DeLoney]

Yeah. You're giving him way too much credit. It was like four or five years into me being married before my wife was like, oh, you don't see that pile of clothes? And I was like, what? In the same way I would be like, hey, you don't see that sketchy guy that just came in with your back turned in the restaurant? Like, I see him.

[Amber]

Yeah.

[John DeLoney]

And so it's just like. I guarantee you he doesn't see it. I can't guarantee it. Let me say it this way. I mean, either he's a terrible human being and he's just doing this to stress out a sister, which is a whole other issue. Or I can take the high road here and just assume he's like most other 21 year olds and he'd just go beboping through life and he didn't even notice it.

[Amber]

Well, I, I think it's true that he doesn't notice it, but that's just frustrating for me because I feel like I'll ask him to do something and then he, he'll outright refuse and he'll say, because I didn't say please. But I'll say to him, like, how many times have I done it without being asked? And I don't get a thank you.

[John DeLoney]

Oh gosh. Because he's trying to say, hey, you're just my bratty older sister and you're trying to say, no, no, no. In this environment, I'm your mother.

[Amber]

Yeah.

[John DeLoney]

And those, that tension is not going to work. So at some point you have to sit down and say, hey, I've been trying to be your mom. I'm not going to be your mom anymore. I'm not going to be our mom anymore. I'm your sister. And for this to work out for both of us, I need your help cleaning stuff up. And sometimes I'll say, please, just know I'm always grateful, but we've, we got to do this together. And I'm sorry for acting like your mom.

[Amber]

Yeah.

[John DeLoney]

And he'll probably go, oh, okay. And that's sometimes 21 year old male way of saying I'm sorry too. Or you can say, you have to say the words I'm sorry also. Right. Or whatever. But he's being little brother. Just imagine y' all are 6 and 10. That same, that dynamic never changes. You know what I mean?

[Amber]

Yeah.

[John DeLoney]

It just is. And so just call it out and put on the table.

[Amber]

Yeah. I mean, it's just, you know, he still calls my mom up and, and she'll say that I'm being mean to him.

[John DeLoney]

And she has always said that your whole life. Why would you expect it to change now?

[Amber]

Well, because we don't live with her and I don't see why he has to call her. But I guess, you know, because he's. If she's taken aside a little mama's boy. Yeah.

[John DeLoney]

Okay, so let me ask you the bigger question. Why are you living with him?

[Amber]

Well, okay, so he was, it's a long story. My stepdad and him kind of butted heads. And not because he was like trying to do anything wrong, but because he's a bit more of a controlling guy, my stepdad.

[John DeLoney]

Okay.

[Amber]

And I was always Fine with him. He wasn't. He didn't have a problem with me because I kind of. I kind of read the room and understood my place in the household and just cleaned up after myself, stayed in my room, kind of did my own thing until I was able to move out.

[John DeLoney]

Okay, so let me change. Let me change the language a little bit.

[Amber]

Yeah.

[John DeLoney]

Your body went to flight and your brothers with a non biological male. Two bulls in a china shop. One old bull and one young bull. He went to fight. Both of you experienced the trauma. Having another man tell y' all how to live your life. You chose safety through making sure everybody was at peace and you knew how to play the system and get out of. Out of the way.

[Amber]

Yeah.

[John DeLoney]

And he did not. One isn't the better. They're both trauma responses. One's gonna get somebody broken bones and black eyes, but that doesn't make it any better or worse.

[Amber]

Yeah. Well, that. That's why we had to move out, because he essentially told us both at the same time that we had to go because he really wanted my brother out. So my brother couldn't afford the rent on his own. Which is why I disagree.

[John DeLoney]

Stepped in and said, I disagree.

[Amber]

Yeah.

[John DeLoney]

Yeah.

[Amber]

Okay.

[John DeLoney]

Your brother's had somebody bail him out of his whole life.

[Amber]

Yeah.

[John DeLoney]

And that's not a bad thing. Little kids need to be bailed out. Young boys need to be bailed out. They're still kids. He's 21. In reality. Just hit him upside the head. It's a harsh reality for 21 year old boys, but it did. And you took on a maternal role.

[Amber]

Yeah.

[John DeLoney]

Which is kudos to you. That's an awesome big sister. But he needs to know his place in this world. I took you in. You have to play a role in this house.

[Amber]

Yeah.

[John DeLoney]

And that means keeping things clean, taking care of business. And by the way, you got eight months. You got six months, and then you got to get your own place. And those are just hard conversations. But the greatest gift you can give him is. Is confidence that he could stand up on his own two feet. Because what we don't want is him to be like the millions of unmarriable men in this country who are 26 years old and have no skills, no anything. No. They don't shower, they don't go to work, they don't like, they don't do anything.

[Amber]

Yeah. I do worry about that a lot.

[John DeLoney]

Okay. So, you know, instead of being his mother, you can be as a loving sister. And you've got three years in quote, unquote real world ahead of him. Yeah. So you can say this. I was gonna go. And then, by the way, he may make some poor choices trying to figure out his big pinballing through life because he sounds like he doesn't have a good male role model.

[Amber]

No.

[John DeLoney]

And so he's going to go searching for where does he fit and where does he belong and who's in his tribe. And for many 21 year old men, their tribe is given to them in the form of here's who we're all going to hate together.

[Amber]

Yeah.

[John DeLoney]

And so letting him know he's got an older sister who's not his mother but who will always be by his side. My older sister got me through some dark times because I knew she'd always be there. And my sister will storm the gates of hell on my behalf. I'm all choked up. My sister, like, heaven help the person who gets between who hurts her younger brother. And she's not my mom. Yeah, right. And by the way, I just want to applaud you. Thanks for picking him up. You've probably been picking him up most of his life, haven't you?

[Amber]

Yeah.

[John DeLoney]

You're a good big sister. I would sit down and say, hey, we gotta talk, let's go, we're gonna go chit chat. And I would tell him, hey, this is a growing up conversation for both of us. I'm no longer mom. I'm not wearing that hat anymore. I am your big sister and I'm going to tell you some hard truth. And I will be your best advocate in this crazy world. If you want to walk with me.

[Amber]

Yeah.

[John DeLoney]

I'll tell you what girls want when you're trying to date them. I'll tell you what's dumb. I'll tell you if you look good in these clothes. I'll tell you if this is a good idea for what? Going to college. Or like I'll, I'll walk with you, but I'm not going to keep going into the weight room and taking the weight off the bar thinking I'm helping you get stronger.

[Amber]

Yeah.

[John DeLoney]

And if you're going to live in my house, then you're going to pay rent. You're going to help clean up. We're going to have chore charge like we did when we were kids. Like, we're going to do things that over time make us civilized. He doesn't have a tucker who ended up being one of the greatest gifts that I ever received in my life. One. He was just. He's still a great friend. He's one of my closest friends in the world, but he just had the courage to tell me, hey, you're gross. Clean this up. Stop. Disgusting. Why do you do that? And I was like, oh, yeah, you're right. That's repulsive. And that helped me become more marriable. And I'm grateful to him for that, for every day. And I assure you, my wife is, too. So that's where I would start, Nicole. And man, you can go down the rabbit hole of blaming your mom for why she. I'd stay out of that for now. You've been mad at your mom for a long, long, long time. And I wouldn't lump that in with your challenges with your brother. Right now, that's between you and a therapist. Thanks for the call, my sister. We'll be right back. Okay, it's time for a quick word about Delete Me. Does anyone else feel like our digital footprints are starting to feel more like digital trails leading people right back to us? And now scammers are using phishing attacks with a ph where they try to trick you into giving them something by pretending to know you and be your friend and be all trying to help you out. And you get an email or a text or a phone call, and the person or the AI bot on the other end sounds like someone who's looking out for you. They're not. With the new technological advancements, no one is really safe. So what's any of us to do? You can start by controlling what you can. You can learn about how to be careful offline and online, and you can sign up with Delete Me. I use and recommend Deleteme because they work in the background to reduce my online presence. That way I don't have to worry about creepy data brokers having all of my data and trying to sell it to each other. Delete Me has reviewed over tens of thousands of sites for me, and they removed my data from hundreds of them, which has saved me countless hours and a ton of stress. Stop phishing attacks, stop online harassment and threats before they start, and take control of your digital privacy. With Delete me, go to joindeleteme.com Deloney today for 20% off their annual plan that comes out to less than nine bucks a month. That's join j o I n delete me.com deloney all right, we're back. Kelly, what is something cool that happened?

[Kelly]

All right, so we got this from Jenny in New Carlisle, Ohio, and she writes, I was listening to the show, as I always do, when you were talking about if they will tell this story at my funeral. I laughed and smiled and thought, man, that is such a dad thing to say. As the mom of a 4 and 7 year old with a husband who is always thinking of fun, I find myself being the stealer of joy. So later that week, we had a ton of rain. And on the way home, my husband was finding puddles to drive through as the kids were loving the splash that occurred. As we were approaching the puddle, the kids rolled down their windows. By the way, Kelly speaking. That's giving me anxiety.

[John DeLoney]

Oh, that is making me so happy.

[Kelly]

Everything inside of me hated it. But I laughed, smiled, and found joy in theirs as they stuck their heads out and were drenched by the splash. Water was all over our car, inside and out, and they asked us to do it again. We laughed around. We turned around multiple times doing the same thing as they laughed continuously. I hope to replay that line in my head often to let go and to bring them joy, even if it is messy.

[John DeLoney]

Oh, it's so good. Last night, Kelly, my daughter, challenged me. This is what she called it. Dad, let's go outside. Yard fight. And I was like, what? Yard fight? She wanted to just go fight me in the front yard. And I thought, we're gonna get the cops called. So. And by the way, she, when she punches, they are like atomic windmills. They come from her soul. So it's not just like Patty Caken. It would look bad if you were driving by and she is on top of me just raining down blows. And so I got a. A lacrosse ball. And I was like, okay, we're gonna play a game where I'm gonna throw it across the yard and then we have to sprint across the yard to get it. I haven't laughed that hard. And it was like people were driving real slow. Like the neighbor's dog in the front yard was just on DEFCON high alert, just staring at us like, what's happening? I haven't laughed that hard. And we came in covered in grass. She had grass in her ears, her nose, her hair. I was. And my wife was like, I would do anything to be challenged to a yard fight and actually want to go out there and do that. And I'm glad that only one of us is yard fighting. If two parents are out there, it probably wouldn't be great. But I do appreciate coming from a house where somebody. It's not their inclination. I appreciate that mother gritting her teeth and just being like, let's go again. And her thinking, I have to wash these clothes now. I gotta get new shoes. I'm have to get the car clean. I get that. But just taking that moment. You can't do that every day. But man, the occasional yard fight, the occasional rolling the windows down in the car wash. So good. So good. Ask yourself, will they tell this at our funeral? And if the answer is yes, it may probably ought to do it. Unless it's going to be all of Yalls funeral the next few minutes then. Then maybe we. We need an adult on scene. Love you guys.