Nutrition Expert Debunks Health Misinformation (With Dr. Layne Norton)

Summary

Summary of "Nutrition Expert Debunks Health Misinformation (With Dr. Layne Norton)"

The Dr. John DeLoney Show hosted by Ramsey Network features a compelling conversation between Dr. John DeLoney and Dr. Layne Norton, a renowned nutrition expert and multi-time world champion weightlifter. Released on January 8, 2025, this episode delves deep into the pervasive issues of health misinformation, the complexities of obesity, the significance of exercise, and the intertwined nature of mental and physical health.

---

Introduction to Dr. Layne Norton

Dr. Layne Norton, celebrated for both his academic prowess and athletic achievements, brings a unique perspective to the discussion. With a PhD in Nutritional Sciences, Dr. Norton has spent years combating health myths and guiding individuals towards evidence-based nutrition and fitness practices. John DeLoney highlights Dr. Norton's ability to distill complex scientific data into relatable advice, making him a valuable guest for addressing widespread health misconceptions.

---

Debunking Nutrition Myths

Inflammation and Whey Protein

The episode kicks off with Dr. Norton addressing a common misconception: "Somebody's like, you know, whey protein causes inflammation? And I'm like, oh, oh, it does? Yeah. Okay, well here are all these studies that show the exact opposite. That actually lowers inflammation." (00:05) Dr. Norton emphasizes the importance of relying on scientific data rather than anecdotal beliefs. He challenges the validity of claims that lack empirical support, stating, "Either you don't know this data exists, in which case you should not be talking, or two, you know it exists, it doesn't fit your bias and so you don't care." (08:08)

Sugar's Toxicity and Dietary Balance

Addressing the demonization of sugar, Dr. Norton clarifies, "If sugar is toxic, then carbohydrates are toxic." (09:18) He explains the flawed logic behind blanket statements about food ingredients and advocates for a nuanced understanding of diet. Dr. Norton shares real-world examples of how extreme restrictions can lead to unhealthy eating behaviors: "people who believe this stuff a lot of times would be the opposite outcome, which is they would completely try to abstain from this stuff. And guess what happens? They'd end up binge eating on this stuff and there'd be so much shame wrapped up in it." (09:42)

---

The Obesity Epidemic and Health Risks

Obesity as a Major Health Driver

Dr. Norton shifts the focus to obesity, labeling it as a critical factor in numerous health issues. He states, "obesity drops testosterone, it's, it's easily explained by that, the decline in testosterone over the years. I'm not saying none of these other things may make any difference whatsoever, but obesity is the major driver of it." (29:33) Highlighting data from mortality studies, he explains that maintaining a healthy body fat percentage significantly reduces risks associated with cardiovascular disease and cancer.

Caloric Balance Simplified

Drawing parallels between financial budgeting and caloric intake, Dr. Norton asserts, "People want to argue it. And I'm like, hey, if you sit down and you tell me, like, we know you need to earn more money than you spend if you want to save money, nobody's going to argue that. But math still boils it down to math." (35:24) He reinforces the fundamental principle of "calories in versus calories out," breaking down the components of energy expenditure:

• Basal Metabolic Rate (BMR): The energy required to maintain bodily functions at rest, accounting for 60-70% of daily energy expenditure.
• Thermic Effect of Food (TEF): Energy used to digest, absorb, and metabolize food, with protein having a higher TEF than carbohydrates or fats.
• Exercise: Physical activity that increases caloric burn.
• Non-Exercise Activity Thermogenesis (NEAT): Daily movements like pacing and fidgeting that contribute to overall energy expenditure.

---

The Role of Exercise in Health and Mental Well-being

Exercise Beyond Weight Loss

Dr. Norton emphasizes that exercise offers benefits that extend beyond mere weight management. "Exercise, one of the only things you can do that doesn't cause weight loss, that will drastically lower your risk of cardiovascular disease and cancer." (39:06) He cites studies demonstrating significant improvements in mental health through regular physical activity, highlighting a study where "eight weeks of two times a week of resistance training for 25 minutes was an effect size of 1.7 on reducing the symptoms of depression." (40:43)

Cognitive and Psychological Benefits

Beyond physical health, Dr. Norton discusses the cognitive benefits of exercise. He notes that exercise "sensitizes your brain to satiety signals" and improves "cognition, memory, and is neuroprotective." This holistic view underscores the importance of integrating regular physical activity into one's lifestyle for comprehensive health benefits.

---

Mental Health, Accountability, and Self-Forgiveness

Balancing Empathy and Accountability

A significant portion of the conversation delves into the interplay between mental health and personal responsibility. Dr. Norton and Dr. DeLoney explore how empathy must be balanced with accountability to foster genuine behavioral change. "Effective coaching requires empathy with accountability. You can't have either one in isolation." (59:02) This balance is crucial in helping individuals overcome challenges without falling into the trap of self-pity or excessive self-criticism.

The Importance of Self-Forgiveness

Dr. Norton shares personal insights on struggling with self-forgiveness, highlighting the difficulty of reconciling one's mistakes with self-compassion. "I have a hard time forgiving myself for mistakes. I'll either try to rationalize them out or just beat myself up over it." (53:00) He underscores the value of external support systems—such as therapists, support groups, or trusted individuals—in the journey toward self-forgiveness and mental well-being.

Action Over Rumination

Drawing inspiration from Ethan Suplee's philosophy, Dr. Norton advises prioritizing action over overthinking: "We spend so much time trying to worry about who started the fire, and what we should be doing is just getting the hell out of the house." (46:32) This approach advocates for proactive steps towards improvement rather than getting bogged down by unproductive rumination.

---

Concluding Insights

In wrapping up the discussion, Dr. Norton and Dr. DeLoney emphasize the simplicity yet difficulty of maintaining a healthy lifestyle. "It's hard, but it's simple," (62:11) Dr. Norton encourages taking "baby steps" to implement manageable changes, stressing that while the foundation of health is straightforward—avoid smoking, exercise, regulate caloric intake, limit alcohol, and ensure adequate sleep—the execution requires dedication and persistence.

They also touch upon the societal distractions and misinformation that hinder individuals from taking responsibility for their health. By focusing on actionable steps and building supportive relationships, individuals can navigate the complexities of modern life and achieve both mental and physical well-being.

Key Takeaways:

• Rely on Scientific Evidence: Counteract health myths with robust scientific data.
• Address Obesity as a Primary Health Concern: Focus on caloric balance and sustainable weight management.
• Integrate Regular Exercise: Harness the multifaceted benefits of physical activity for both body and mind.
• Balance Empathy with Accountability: Foster environments that support growth without enabling complacency.
• Prioritize Action Over Rumination: Take proactive steps to improve health and mental well-being.

---

Dr. John DeLoney and Dr. Layne Norton offer a rich and insightful dialogue that equips listeners with the knowledge and motivation to navigate health misinformation, prioritize meaningful health strategies, and cultivate a balanced, fulfilling life.

Transcript

[Lane Norton]

Somebody's like, you know, whey protein causes inflammation? And I'm like, oh, oh, it does? Yeah. Okay, well here's all these studies that show the exact opposite. That actually lowers inflammation. There's one of two options here. Either you don't know this data exists, in which case you should not be talking, or two, you know it exists, it doesn't fit your bias and so you don't care.

[John DeLoney]

What's going on? What's going on? This is John with a Dr. John DeLoney show talking about your mental and emotional health and your relationships and your kids and your in laws and everything you got going on in your life. For the past two decades plus, I've been sitting with hurting people as the wheels have fallen off their life trying to figure out what's the next right move. I'd love to have you on the show. It's real people going through real life stuff. Go to john deloney.com askask fill out the form and we'll see if we can get you on the show. Today we have a very special guest fresh off his World Championship weightlifting victory. World champion. This isn't the first time or the second time. I think he's a third or fourth. I don't know. He wins everything all the time. The strongest man in the world and he happens to be one of the world's most renowned. He happens to be one of the world's most renowned experts on nutrition, protein, cancer, getting beef cakey and taking down people who lie on the Internet. It's about nutrition. I'm talking about Dr. Lane Norton, who's also a good friend and big time advocate for what we do here. Over the past three or four years, Lane has helped me personally with some, with some challenges I've had. We've navigated life together and I'm so happy that we finally got the opportunity to sit down in person to talk through everything from what's it like being wrong exercise and nutrition like, what's the, the chaos out there in the world versus what is actually real? When it comes to nutrition, when it comes to exercise, we talk about how can some people be so good in certain parts of their lives and then just be train wrecks? And others we talk about so much, we run the gamut here. This is one of my favorite conversations I've ever had from a true. Not an Instagram or a Tiktoky, but a true expert. Somebody who coaches people, who performs themselves, knows all the academic insights and who can distill it all down for knuckleheads.

[Unknown]

Like me to understand.

[John DeLoney]

So sit back and enjoy this conversation with my friend Lane Norton. You are one of the most graceful people I know behind closed doors.

[Unknown]

And you have a thing in your guts about charlatans.

[John DeLoney]

Does that come from, like, you? You more so than most people I know. You have. I, I, I, I, I think of it this way. Me and a buddy are walking down the street and somebody mouths off, and they mouth off about me. I, I often wouldn't hear it.

[Unknown]

I have a thing in my gut.

[John DeLoney]

If I hear somebody mouth off about.

[Unknown]

A kid, I snap. I get irrational to the point that I've had people grab my arm and say, keep walking. All right?

[John DeLoney]

You and I can both be scrolling social media on the same thing, and one guy pops off, and I'm like, what an idiot. And you have this thing in your guts where you're like, stop.

[Unknown]

I'll go burn that guy's house down.

[John DeLoney]

Where does that come from?

[Lane Norton]

I think for me, when I first got into this industry, it was like early 2000s, and it was basically by posting on bodybuilding message boards. I started to get a name on there, started to write for different websites. Websites, different magazines, and then started my coaching business. And I was kind of one of the first people to do online coaching at scale.

[Unknown]

Okay.

[Lane Norton]

And you can learn so much through a PhD, but, man, I learned the most by working with people. That's it, you know? And I just saw some of the information that was being given to people and the downstream effects of that, of the misinformation of people just kind of winging it, you know? And I think for me, going through the graduate school experience and having a really great PhD advisor, Don Layman, I still got to give him ton of shout out because, you know, he had his, he got a lifetime achievement award this past year. And we were sitting down at dinner, me and him and a bunch of his old graduate students.

[John DeLoney]

The fact that y'all did that, by the way, is so rad. Oh, I love that all his students came back. That's pretty special.

[Lane Norton]

That group of people will probably never be in the same room again together. It was awesome. And he said, you know, I was just okay with being wrong. I was just okay with being wrong. And when I got to grad school, I think I just had so many of my ideas crushed repeatedly that I'm like, oh, it's okay to be wrong, right? Like, it's okay. And so I don't, I'm not upset at people for being wrong. I think what I'm upset About is people. Because everyone was ignorant at some point. Sure, right.

[Unknown]

That's right.

[Lane Norton]

But when you have been shown something repeatedly that not only says that what you're saying isn't accurate, actually the opposite thing. This is true in a lot of cases, like some of these people that I debunk. And you're still doing it. You know, it's either, you know, there's, there's. There's kind of two roads you can go down. Either they're making money from it, and so they don't. They're not. They can't. They can't really change course. But I actually think the more powerful portion of this is people tie their identity into some of this stuff. They tie their identity into a diet or a supplement program or a style of training on. For sure.

[Unknown]

Yeah, yeah.

[Lane Norton]

And, and I can even.

[John DeLoney]

Yeah, yeah.

[Lane Norton]

I can even identify with that. Right. And so is this, Is it a.

[John DeLoney]

Sense of justice for you?

[Lane Norton]

Yeah, yeah. And I think again, going through the graduate school experience where I got to, like, see myself be wrong so much, and even I'll never forget the first talk I ever gave at experimental biology, which is like the super bowl for nerds. Right. It's like 300 people in a room. I'm in my third year of grad school and I was giving a talk and I thought I knew this stuff. And a professor gets up and he totally dresses me down in front of a room of scientists. And it was embarrassing. Yeah, it hurt. And I went and sat down and Lehman was sitting next to me and he said, you know, you did pretty good. He goes, you're not supposed to go that hard on a graduate student as a professor. And I want to talk to that guy, but I don't hold it against that guy. In fact, it was really good for me because I remember what that felt like. And I'm like, okay, I'm going to know my stuff next time.

[Unknown]

That's it.

[Lane Norton]

I'm going to go and get the answers so that I understand the nuance of this stuff so I'm not up there looking like an idiot. Right. And so I think, like, that took me five minutes to self reflect and go, okay, maybe that guy went a little bit too hard on me. But I, I allowed it to happen. Yeah, yeah, right. By not, I set the table.

[John DeLoney]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Lane Norton]

By not doing my due D. If I knew what I was talking about, like, really in depth, it would have never happened.

[John DeLoney]

And so it would have been really easy for you to become the victim in that moment.

[Lane Norton]

Right.

[John DeLoney]

And instead it was. No, that was harsh. But that was the learning opportunity and.

[Unknown]

I'm going to make the changes I could do. All I can control is me here.

[Lane Norton]

Yeah. And so I think when I see some of these people, you know, so confidently saying things that are just totally not true.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Lane Norton]

You know, so, you know, kind of the catch line on my, on my video series is if only we had human randomized control trials that actually.

[John DeLoney]

Oh, wait, yeah, right, right, yeah.

[Lane Norton]

And you know, it's like there was a recent one where somebody was like, you know, whey protein causes inflammation. And I'm like, oh, oh, it does? Yeah. Okay, well, here's all these studies that show the exact opposite. That actually lowers inflammation. Okay. So either you. There's one of two options here. Either you don't know this data exists, in which case you should not be talking, or two, you know it exists, it doesn't fit your bias. And so you don't care.

[John DeLoney]

Yeah, but, but you as a coach.

[Unknown]

Have seen the impact on human beings.

[Lane Norton]

And honestly, a lot of the downstream stuff I've seen, I'll give you an example where stuff is counterintuitive and what can happen when this messaging. Because human beings aren't robots. Right. We got all this like weird wiring in our heads. I dealt with so many people who had disordered eating patterns from things they'd been told. Right.

[Unknown]

You've helped me with that.

[Lane Norton]

Yeah. And like, that's why people will say when somebody says sugar's toxic, I'll go, and I'll explain why. Not really.

[John DeLoney]

And now in the volume with which I consume it, toxic.

[Lane Norton]

But, well, you know, and people go, well, why are you defending sugar? I'm not defending sugar, but I think it's important to, it's important to understand, like, yeah, I don't think a diet high in sugar is a good idea, but it's not because sugar has like some inherent chemical property to it that's causing like carbohydrates break down into sugar. Like that's what enters your bloodstream when you eat carbohydrates of any form. Okay. So if sugar is toxic, then carbohydrates are toxic.

[Unknown]

Gotcha.

[Lane Norton]

So I think it's important to understand this stuff because what I saw was people who believe this stuff a lot of times would be the opposite outcome, which is they would completely try to abstain from this stuff. And guess what happens? They'd end up binge eating on this stuff and there'd be so much shame wrapped up in it and there'd be so Much.

[John DeLoney]

And the only way to make the.

[Unknown]

Shame go away is to eat more.

[John DeLoney]

Right, Right.

[Lane Norton]

And.

[John DeLoney]

Or like me. Well, I, I've skipped Easter.

[Lane Norton]

Yeah.

[John DeLoney]

I've skipped. I've not eaten cake at my, one of my kids birthdays once.

[Lane Norton]

Right.

[John DeLoney]

And so I end up like, in.

[Unknown]

The name of this thing, I was taught or told from a very confident source. Dude, I missed out on important markers. Right.

[Lane Norton]

Well, I think that's the other thing that people don't realize is like, food isn't, isn't just fuel. Like, there's, there's no, it's community. It's cultural. You know, people want to talk about, we should ban ultra processed foods. And I go, listen, that the bullet is out of the gun. We're not putting it back in.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Lane Norton]

All right. We need to learn how to, to live with this. Okay. And so I try to help people understand. Yeah, I don't think it's a good idea to eat a lot of sugar, but it's not because it's toxic. Because here's what happens when people believe that kind of stuff. There's no, there's no area for nuance or dosage. Right.

[Unknown]

Y.

[Lane Norton]

And also, people do weird things like, well, I'm not going to eat fruit because sugar's toxic, because the sugar in fruit isn't any different than the other sugar.

[John DeLoney]

Right.

[Unknown]

To a fiber.

[John DeLoney]

You know, I even heard a few years ago there was that protein eventually breaks down into. Is it protein? Something, something genesis, that breaks down to sugar eventually.

[Lane Norton]

I mean, protein. So glucogenesis.

[Unknown]

That's it.

[Lane Norton]

So, yeah, yeah. I mean, you can con.

[John DeLoney]

You can keep playing that game all the way out. Right.

[Lane Norton]

For sure. You know, and yeah, I can, I can construct a narrative to make you afraid of anything. Yeah. Fat, carbohydrate, protein. I can just, I can construct those narratives. And again, what I saw so often was people trying to abstain from these things and ended up actually eating more of it because of it. And then when I kind of like, I'll never forget, I had a client one time and I said, hey, listen, here's what I want you to do, okay. I want you to. Can you eat these calories, all right. And have a small bowl of ice cream every night? And if you don't lose weight because sugar's stopping you from losing weight, then we'll cut it out. But just, just, just have it. And after two weeks, they're like, oh, my God, I've lost three pounds and I was still able to have some ice cream. I'm like, yeah, yeah, you're fine. Like, it's a. It's a dosage thing. Okay. Now, just like, you know, with Ramsey, talk about budgeting. Right. If you can still take care of your responsibilities, your mortgage, your. Your utilities, food, et cetera, et cetera, and you have a lot of money left over and you're taking care of all your responsibilities, a sports car might not be a great investment, but if you like it and it gives you some joy.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Lane Norton]

If it fits in your budget. There's nothing in Ramsey stuff that says, hey, don't go buy a sports car.

[John DeLoney]

Now, Dave says, yeah, if you can light it on fire in your living room and it won't change your life, then do it.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Lane Norton]

And so that's kind of how I look at, like, you know, treats and processed food and all that kind of stuff. Like, okay, if you're, like, sedentary and you don't expend much energy every day. Yeah. Your budget's gonna be pretty small. And does it make sense for you to, like, a lot some of that towards, you know, piece of cheesecake or ice cream or whatever? No, probably not. But if you have a. A larger budget and also if you allot some of this and you are able to moderate it and, like, I hope everybody's different.

[Unknown]

Yep.

[Lane Norton]

But if you are able to moderate it and it helps keep you consistent. Like, for me, if you. If I know I can have the foods I like, but I just got to kind of fit them into my budget. Yeah, I'm fine.

[John DeLoney]

I remember having tacos with you once.

[Unknown]

I was like, I don't know how.

[John DeLoney]

I think he had one drink and.

[Unknown]

Two tacos, and I have chips and queso and taco. Like, I'm getting another taco. Like, yeah, let's get off out of control.

[John DeLoney]

And. But.

[Unknown]

But again, it goes back to know thyself, right?

[Lane Norton]

Yeah. Know thyself. And. And again, I've. I've had. I actually stayed with a couple one time where the. The girlfriend was doing her master's in psychology.

[Unknown]

Oh, yeah.

[Lane Norton]

And she was like, here's what I noticed about Lane. When he's in control of. By default, picks very low calorie options. But he also didn't turn down any dessert I made. He didn't turn down. So I am in my head doing this budget and doing this exchange. Like, if I want to go out and have a few drinks, well, then I'm not going to eat as heavy of a dinner. Right, Right. Or I'm going to hold over. I'm Going to not eat as much earlier in the day so that I can have more later. It's budgeting. So I saw how much damage this stuff caused people. You know, that I worked with this messaging, and I think that's what got me kind of vitriolic about it.

[John DeLoney]

Yeah.

[Lane Norton]

And I have actually tried to pull that back a little bit. I've tried to save the vitriol for, like, the repeat offenders, you know?

[John DeLoney]

Right, right.

[Lane Norton]

Where it's, like, very obvious that they don't care about getting it right. But I have seen people who have called out who have changed their views on some things.

[John DeLoney]

You did that to me. You read my first book and you called me and you're like, hey, great book.

[Unknown]

You were wrong here.

[John DeLoney]

But, hey, but I needed that. I was right. And as a guy who worked in science, it's a. It's not a. It's. It's not an indictment. It's as much as it's a. Dude, you put a piece of iron out.

[Unknown]

Here to be sharpened, and I happen to can sharpen that. That side of that thing. Right.

[John DeLoney]

Well, I think it's a gift.

[Unknown]

It's a blessing.

[Lane Norton]

And it's funny, like, some of the, like, everybody struggles with different things. Right. Like, I've. I. You can give me a feedback on a scientific thing, and I'm probably not going to take it super personal.

[Unknown]

Right, Right.

[Lane Norton]

But I took things personal. Feedback and relationships. Sure. Like that. Right. Yeah. And, like, you know, try. There's so many, like, parallels across different things in life, you know? But like I said, one of the things I've tried to do is like, okay, if somebody sends me a video of somebody, like, something that'll trigger me. Right. Is when I see people saying things that are very, very untrue, especially if they're, like, trying to use the veil of science. Like, it's one thing for a bro who's jacked to just be like, this is what made me jacked.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Lane Norton]

Okay, fine. Right. Like, you're wrong. But I'm like, I'm not. It's another thing for Be like, scientists at Harvard showed xyz. I'm like, oh, yeah, let me go read that study. You know? Yeah, let me go. Let me go pull up the study. I can remember very clearly one time, this one guy I've called out a bunch.

[John DeLoney]

He.

[Lane Norton]

He would never say me by name, which is very smart on his part. But he was kind of trying to respond to some things I'd said about artificial sweeteners. And he said in this study, they gave subjects artificial sweetener. By the way, when they say subjects mice. It was in rats. Yeah, they gave, they gave subjects aspartame and they gained more weight and XYZ. And I'm like, and then he said, the PubMed ID and I'm like, I'm gonna go read this study. Yeah, mistake. Don't give the PubMed ID to me. And it turns out, yeah, it was in rats and also 12x their body weight or something. No, they actually lost weight. Who's lost weight? I'm like, not only was you get this wrong, it's the opposite of what you said. And even like there was a very well known scientist who was on a really big podcast with a podcaster who I'm, I have a good relationship with and I was watching the interview and he said, you know, they get, they did this study where they had everybody eat, drink either a liter of soda a day, a liter of diet soda a day, a liter of full fat milk, or a liter of water. And in six months, the people drinking a liter of cola gained 10 kilograms. The, the group drinking the diet cola gained 2 kilograms. And, and then I can't remember the water or the full fat milk. He said, I think they said, you know, they lost weight or whatever. And, and he said it was a study out of Copenhagen. So I'm like, all right, where can I find this thing? So I, I spent probably five hours trying to track down this study and finally found it because he mentioned it in a blog and I was able to find the original study. And I'm like, so he either didn't read this study at all or he fabricated the results. So the, the, yes, it was a liter of those things. It was actually semi skim milk. It wasn't full fat milk. There was actually no differences between the groups in the amount of weight gain. Like the, the cola group gained the most weight, but it wasn't statistically significantly different from the other groups. And actually based on raw data, the group getting diet cola didn't gain like gain the least amount of weight, actually lost a little bit of weight. And I'm like, millions of people heard this podcast and I was the first one to be like, so out of the millions, nobody went and fact check this.

[John DeLoney]

It's the new year. It's my favorite time of year. Everyone starts thinking of new routines, building better habits, stopping things that aren't that helpful, and overall building a better life. And we all know that most new go get them goals are a waste of time because we don't put in the systems to make them sustainable. So how about this year let's focus on fewer, more sustainable goals and better systems. And let's start by curating a system and a goal that's good for your heart and your soul. Let's start with our spiritual lives and let's start off 2025 by focusing on prayer and meditation. To do this, I recommend Hallow, the number one prayer app in the world. I use it every day and I love it. Hallow offers over 10,000 guided prayers and meditations to help you grow closer to God and find peace. Hallow has some amazing daily prayers, and one of Hallow's most popular features is the Daily Reflection with Jonathan Roumie from the Chosen. You can also check out the daily scripture readings, nightly sleep prayers, and if you don't have much time, there's even something called the Daily Minute. Hallow makes it easy to build a system and a routine by making a schedule, adding reminders, and fostering a community for accountability. So start the new year off right by putting your relationship with God first with the help of Hallow. Right now they're offering three months for free when you [e-mail] Deloney that's Hallow. H a l l o w.com Deloney for three months of Hallow, absolutely free. I'm a founding member of the get off the Internet and go outside and live your life club. Actually, I think I'm the only member yet. I, like all of you, find myself at work and in my personal life, basically living on the Internet. As a society, we're creating more and more online accounts all the time. We're signing up for promos, giving away our emails and personal numbers. We're buying everything with our phones. I get hundreds of emails to my personal account, my business account. Every business in the world wants to survey me and become my friend. And everyone, everywhere is trying to sell me stuff all the time. It drives me nuts. And yet, with all of this online activity, do we really know where our data is and who has it? Chances are high that data broker websites have your information and they're selling it to scammers, spammers, and other shady people. But when you use Delete me, they find and remove your data from hundreds of sites and they send reports to you directly throughout the year to show you exactly what they've removed and from where. Now I'm getting way fewer of those spammy texts and phone calls, which allow me to let my guard down a little bit and feel some peace in this new year, you can share this piece by giving a delete me subscription to someone you love. Individual delete me plans start as low as $9 a month. Go to joindeleteme.com DeLoney today for 20% off. That's join delete me J-O-I-N delete me.com DeLoney. You gave me a line one time that has stuck with me and it sticks with me when it comes to marriage. It sticks with me when it comes.

[Unknown]

To dealing with budgets here at Ramsey. It sticks me a lot of time.

[John DeLoney]

And that is people are always stepping.

[Unknown]

Over dollars to pick up pennies.

[John DeLoney]

And when I look at the landscape right now, we're a couple days after an election, right? All of a sudden the literature has been flooded. I say the literature.

[Unknown]

The popular media has been flooded with fluoride and red number 30.

[John DeLoney]

And the seed oil thing's been going on for years and years and years. And I don't know enough to speak intelligently. What I know is, fine, it may.

[Unknown]

All be poison and battle.

[John DeLoney]

And 40 to 50% of the country struggles with obesity. And was it 8 out of 10, 7 out of 10 people have one or fewer people that they can reach.

[Unknown]

Out to and say, I'm not okay.

[John DeLoney]

And so when I think of the.

[Unknown]

Caustic, mechanistic issues going on, it feels like we are playing on the margins. It's yet another distraction.

[John DeLoney]

Am I crazy?

[Lane Norton]

No, you're not crazy. I think you just have to do the damn thing. And I think a lot of people, they want to make it about, well, this ingredient in food and this thing and this thing and this thing. And what they're avoiding is the inherent responsibility, the self responsibility. Because if I can make it, sugar is toxic, or if I can make it, the food companies put addictive substances in this food, or if I can make it, the government made us. It's taking away my own accountability. I don't have to be accountable for it. And I think the problem is if you're not, if you don't have any responsibility with it, then you don't have, like, you're actually not in control of being able to fix it.

[John DeLoney]

And it goes back to just owning it.

[Lane Norton]

Yeah. And so when I look at the mortality data, cardiovascular disease risk, cancer risk, there are a few major things that stand out. And you can almost explain the majority of the problems based on these things.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Lane Norton]

The first is, the most powerful one is smoking, to be quite honest with you. Yeah, smoking is don't smoke. It's it just a Very linear increase in risk. But, but side note, if you want to know how easy it is to manipulate people with scientific research, I was reading a meta analysis of adenocarcinoma incidents with smoking. Right? And when you're looking at a meta analysis, usually they'll include a forest plot which is going to show, you know, right of the line is this, left of the line is this. And, you know, so in this meta analysis, right of the line is increased risk, left of the line, decrease risk with smoking. There's like 50 studies in this meta, 48 of them are very far to the right. Right. Like, and the overall effect was like, I think like a. I want to say over a 400% risk increase, relative risk, increase in the risk of people.

[John DeLoney]

Who don't do science.

[Lane Norton]

That's four times.

[Unknown]

That's astounding.

[Lane Norton]

Like, when you hear things in the media like, okay, this increased your risk of cancer, like 20%. They're referring to relative risk.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Lane Norton]

So let me just explain that real quick. So a relative risk, let's say your absolute risk of something occurring over a period of time is 5%. A relative risk increase of 20% doesn't mean it goes to 25%. It means it goes from 5 to 6%. Because 20% percent of 5% is 1%. So you add it to 5%, you get 6%. Doesn't sound nearly as scary that way.

[John DeLoney]

Right. Or if you're.

[Unknown]

I don't remember that.

[John DeLoney]

If your mom has. Or one of your parents has schizophrenia, you have a hundred percent risk. Okay, so it goes from 1% to 2%.

[Lane Norton]

Right, right, exactly.

[John DeLoney]

And those numbers aren't real. But. But yes, for sure. People freak out and It's.

[Lane Norton]

Yeah. So 400 is massive. It is massive.

[Unknown]

Yes.

[Lane Norton]

But two of those studies were to the left of the line. Now I could pick out those two studies and be like, oh, look, smoking decreases risk. And then I could couple it with. And this is actually very consistent literature. Smoking decreases the risk of Parkinson's. It's very consistent literature. Now, it's probably from the nicotine, is my guess correct. But again, like, so I could start to construct this pseudo argument that smoking is actually not only not bad for you, it's neuroprotective, it's good for you, you know.

[John DeLoney]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Lane Norton]

So. So smoking is a big one. That's an. I don't want to say an easy one. It is, but it's like, you cut that out, you're cutting down a huge risk of cardiovascular disease. Cancer. People think about cancer, but Smoking is one of the. If it might be the biggest cause of cardiovascular disease. And it's. People have asked, what about smoking? Weed versus smoking? It is the smoke itself.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Lane Norton]

So the data is really difficult to tease apart, but it really is the ingestion of the smoke because cigar smokers who don't inhale, when they control for, and they control for cigar smokers or pipe smokers who don't inhale, who have never smoked cigarettes, they don't really see increased risk of like lung cancer. So it really does.

[John DeLoney]

Cancer.

[Lane Norton]

Tongue cancer, that's a little bit more dicey. Okay. I haven't looked as extensively into that. Dipping is much more powerful on mouth cancer because you have so much time that's in contact. You know, you and I are trying.

[John DeLoney]

To walk through as quickly as we can. Don't ingest chemicals and smoke into your body.

[Lane Norton]

Yeah, yeah.

[John DeLoney]

I feel like the fact that we have to do that tells me that.

[Unknown]

We'Ve lost it somewhere.

[John DeLoney]

Obesity is the same way if you're 25, 50, a hundred percent larger than and your body has to carry and deal with that.

[Lane Norton]

Yeah.

[John DeLoney]

I don't know how that's a, A. I don't know how we've jumped the shark in the.

[Unknown]

It's not, it's not good, man. It's not good for you.

[John DeLoney]

There's a thousand reasons it's not good.

[Lane Norton]

It's not good. And this is with smoking, obesity, drug use, whatever. Again, we were talking about this like people make decisions based on emotion, not based on data. Because there's no, like, at this point, people know smoking is not good for you. Just like, you know heroin's not good for you. Right.

[John DeLoney]

Just like, you know, obesity is not good for you.

[Lane Norton]

Just like, you know, I don't want to say that, you know, there's nobody like this, but I would venture to say that no, like healthy, well adjusted person just like, you know, think I'll try some heroin.

[John DeLoney]

Right.

[Lane Norton]

You know, or I think I'm gonna have a cigarette. No, it's, it's a coping mechanism. Right.

[John DeLoney]

And that's the secret that you talk to people who are in recovery.

[Lane Norton]

Yeah.

[John DeLoney]

That nobody tells you. Heroin works.

[Lane Norton]

Right. Alcohol works until it doesn't.

[Unknown]

Until it kills you.

[John DeLoney]

That's right. That's right.

[Unknown]

It works.

[John DeLoney]

It does. It performs a role in the short term.

[Lane Norton]

Yeah. So. So when it comes to obesity. Yes. Like, that's the next thing that I'm going to bring up. If you have excess body fat and, you know, people want to make it about sugar's Toxic or processed foods, whatever. If you look at the hazard ratios, the odd ratios, it's explained by obesity. Like it's, it really is very powerful.

[John DeLoney]

When you, I heard, I heard Doc talking, DA talking the other day. Even he said, I attribute most of.

[Unknown]

The drop in, in testosterone.

[John DeLoney]

Oh, for sure, yeah, it's plastics, it's.

[Lane Norton]

This, it's plastics, this and that. If you look at, if you look at how much obesity drops, testosterone, it's, it's easily explained by that, the decline in testosterone over the years. I'm not saying none of these other things may make any difference whatsoever, but obesity is the major driver of it. And you know, I tell people, like, let's focus on the big rocks.

[John DeLoney]

Let's pick up the dollars and then we'll pick up pennies.

[Lane Norton]

Right, Right, right. Well, it's kind of like I say, you know, if I want to pick up as much in rocks as I can, I'm start with the boulders.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Lane Norton]

And then if I can get some pebbles, great. But I'm not going to drop the boulders to pick up the pebbles.

[John DeLoney]

Okay? What matters when we're talking about obesity and I know it's a sensitive topic, does 5 pounds matter? Does 15 pounds matter? Just 50.

[Lane Norton]

Like if you look at the mortality data, the mortality data actually says, and again, this is correlational, so we have to be careful with how we interpret it. Right. But it's. The mortality data says you're actually better off being around like 18, 20 body fat as a male than you are being like super lean. Right.

[John DeLoney]

There you go.

[Unknown]

That's right.

[Lane Norton]

So it's, it's not about being super lean or anything like that. It's about not getting, you know, obese.

[Unknown]

Okay.

[Lane Norton]

And when you, which is defined clinically as for clinically, I believe for males over 25, body fat, and for females over 30, I believe. Okay. And there's BMIs that you can use as well. It just depends on what measure you're using. And so your risk of cardiovascular disease, cancer, mortality, they all go up you without getting too into the weeds. There are people who are obese who are metabolically still healthy, meaning they don't have abnormal blood lipids, they don't have abnormal blood glucose. That tends to be more of a rarity, but it does happen. Usually these people actually have more fat cells. And I could go into the biochemistry as to why, but it won't help anybody. But even when you standardize for that, people who are obese, even if they are healthy, obesity, they still have increased risk of mortality, cancer and cardiovascular disease because adipose tissue, excess adipose tissue is a metabolic organ and it secretes its own hormones, it secretes inflammatory markers. It has, when it gets large enough in mass, it starts to dysregulate signaling in other tissues, liver, muscle. And so one of the most powerful things you can do. And again, not saying you have to be a six pack shredded, that's not it. In fact, if you look at even people who are obese, you get the majority of the health benefits in the first 5 to 10% of weight loss. In fact, they were doing a study at Illinois. When I got there, layman's lab was doing a study that I kind of, I wasn't involved in, but I just helped, like helped out because I was a idiot first year grad student. They were seeing resolution of obese women's blood markers within like four weeks of just like starting to get into calorie deficit. It's really impressive how quickly things will clean up when you start. Like, the human body is very resilient.

[John DeLoney]

So I don't think we have, I don't think we spent enough time there because guys like me are always saying it's hard. It's going to be a journey. It's going to be whatever with the right trauma therapist. With me, it was five or six gnarly sessions. Of the six, two or three were bad.

[Unknown]

They were tough.

[Lane Norton]

No.

[Unknown]

And.

[John DeLoney]

Then I saw a huge shift. Right. Or when you and I, like when.

[Unknown]

You start helping me early on, if I can just make some changes for 60 days.

[Lane Norton]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

Everything begins to shift and it feels like it's forever.

[Lane Norton]

Yeah.

[John DeLoney]

And it's.

[Unknown]

Body'S amazing.

[Lane Norton]

Yeah. And so when it comes to obesity, what matters? People aren't going to like this, but it's how many calories you eat versus how many calories you expend. That's, that's what makes a difference. And people want to argue it. And I'm like, hey, if you sit down and you tell me, like, we know you need to earn more money than you spend if you want to save money, nobody's going to argue that. Right, right. And people, well, you could go, well, but I don't know. You know, expenses fluctuate. You don't know exactly what. Okay, cool. But you have an idea, right? And you can do averages. Well, you know, interest rates. And you could get a different return based on. Okay, but you kind of know. But math. But. But it still boils down to math. Right. And so I actually just did a debunk of a video Of a guy saying calories in, calories out is too, it's too simplistic. If you think calories in, calories out is simple. You don't understand energy balance because calories out. People think about these as very static things and the reality is each influences each other. So calories out isn't just like what you burned and exercise. That's one component of it. But you have your basal metabolic rate, which is basically the cost of keeping the lights on, just the energy to run your body and systems. And that's about 60 to 70% of your daily energy expenditure, your calories out. Then you have the thermic effect of food, which is how much energy it takes to extract the energy out of food. And that can vary. Protein tends to have a higher tef than carbohydrate or fat. But it overall is not a massive contributor to energy expenditure.

[John DeLoney]

Sure.

[Lane Norton]

Then you've got your exercise, which is intuitive. You exercise, you move, you burn calories and neat.

[John DeLoney]

My fidgeting.

[Lane Norton]

Yes. So that's actually a big one.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Lane Norton]

Right.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[John DeLoney]

And what does it stand for? Non.

[Lane Norton]

Non exercise activity thermogenesis. So basically pacing, fidgeting, posture. So non intentional movements.

[John DeLoney]

It's overlooked by kids. They move so freaking much.

[Lane Norton]

They do.

[Unknown]

And like always just.

[John DeLoney]

And that, that adds up over time.

[Lane Norton]

Oh, it's actually one of the. So when we look at people who are what we call obese resistant phenotype, there's two major things that stand out. The first is they tend to self regulate their appetite. Well, they tend to be very in tune with their satiety signals and they don't have a massive reward from food. Right. That wiring hasn't been created.

[John DeLoney]

They feel better, they don't have that.

[Lane Norton]

And if they overeat, they tend to increase their activity without even realizing it. It. And so people who are obese prone, they tend to not compensate by increasing their activity spontaneously.

[Unknown]

Gotcha.

[Lane Norton]

And they also get a bigger reward for food.

[John DeLoney]

So where does the cultural. Is it purely aesthetic? Because what you, what you're saying right now, what I'm saying right now, there are people listening to the show that. Trust me, there are people listening to show that. Trust you.

[Lane Norton]

I don't know why you do that.

[John DeLoney]

But there's people. Well, this particular thing sets something off. There's so much shame.

[Lane Norton]

There's a lot to unpack. I think people have a hard time with the calories in, calories out. Because if for that to be true. Even though. Yes. Ultra processed foods make it more difficult to be in Touch with your satiety signals. Yes. Trauma impacts these things. Yes. Food can. You can become dependent on food to help you cope. All these things can be true. But the same is true of money as well. And when you boil it down, there is an inherent self responsibility to this equation, and people don't like that, and it's easier to pass it off. And I've been guilty of this, not with nutrition, but in other areas of my life where I'm like. But I had this thing, and I'm like. And I mean, you even said it to me like, you just got to do the. You just got to do the damn thing, man. You don't need more information. You got to do the damn thing.

[John DeLoney]

Yeah. Yesterday you were like, hey, get a book.

[Unknown]

I was like, you don't need another book, man.

[Lane Norton]

You need to go do the same thing.

[John DeLoney]

You know, that was a long, silent. Right? I mean, it's. That's all of us. That's all of us.

[Lane Norton]

And it is. Because it's like, you know, I'm thinking about, you know, a couple hundred years ago, you knew people in your community, and that was it.

[John DeLoney]

That's it.

[Lane Norton]

You knew maybe 100 people.

[John DeLoney]

There are three potential mates.

[Lane Norton]

And you. And you. Your. Your news cycle was what happened around the corner and what you read, the major stuff you read about right now, you know, all. Every horrible thing that happened everywhere in the world. Right. Like, human beings aren't, at least in my estimation, aren't equipped to be able to handle that. And now you're dumping on top of that. Well, you need to watch out for this, and you got to control this, and you got to do this, and.

[John DeLoney]

They'Re coming for you.

[Lane Norton]

We got good relationships and we got the. You know, it's so much.

[John DeLoney]

Yeah. You know, I'm talking about. My buddy Carlos went and spent a couple weeks with an Amish family, and he talked about, I think it's the 1920s. The average meal was approximately 90 minutes. And the average meal in 2021 was 12.

[Lane Norton]

Yeah.

[John DeLoney]

And he ate his bacon, eggs, whatever. And he was kind of getting itchy at the table because the average meal with the Amish family was about two hours. And at one point, he said, hey, I'm done eating.

[Unknown]

And he goes, and the guy said, you're done eating, but the meal's not over.

[John DeLoney]

And at one point he said, this is our Facebook. This is it.

[Unknown]

Like, we're learning about the community, what's.

[John DeLoney]

Going on in your world. And it just went right.

[Unknown]

That's how we're Wired and yet.

[Lane Norton]

And there's a lot of stuff to deal with. And, you know, so the next big thing for getting healthy is exercise. And, and I'm going to tie this back in. But exercise, one of the only things you can do that doesn't cause weight loss, that will drastically lower your risk of cardiovascular disease and cancer. Like, even so, there was a study got published. Four minutes of intense exercise in a day lowers the risk of cancer by 20%. Four minutes. You've got four minutes. I don't care how busy you are right now.

[John DeLoney]

And I've heard the same as go for a walk. Walk has a reduction effect.

[Lane Norton]

Yeah. Walking steps. If you look at a, something, if you look at a chart of mortality and number of steps per day, it's like a precipitous drop off from 2,000 steps a day, which is sedentary, to 8,000. And then it starts to kind of like level off after that. Right. But the other thing that exercise does that people don't realize and I actually think is the most powerful effect for obesity with exercise, it's not the amount of calories you burn from exercise. You really got to do like, very intense exercise to burn a lot. Right. And for a long time. But exercise sensitizes your brain to satiety signals. You actually become better at regulating your food intake when you exercise.

[John DeLoney]

Can I tell you, I like, I become a better husband, I become a better dad. And I don't know if it's just a tidy, but it clarifies my mind. Whoa.

[Lane Norton]

Yeah. Like, I, I, the whole world slows.

[John DeLoney]

Down a little bit for me.

[Lane Norton]

My friends who know me are like, man, if you didn't train for, if you didn't train a couple hours every day, you'd be intolerable. Yeah, yeah. No, but I mean, we're finding now cognitive benefits to exercise. Like, there was just a study looked at adolescents who exercise better test scores. There was a study done in men with major depressive disorder and anxiety disorder, and they had them two times a week for 25 minutes. Resistance train, 50 minutes, lift weights. Yeah. For, I think it was eight weeks. Okay. It wasn't a, like, advanced routine. It was very basic. Right. Just go in and lift weights for 25 minutes two times a week. They saw a reduction in symptoms of anxiety and depression. And the. So we use what's called an effect size you're familiar with in research to kind of show you, like, it's not so that you'll report significant effects. Right. Significance is you can have a significant effect that's small. If you have enough data points. Okay. But effect size tells you not significance. It tells you how powerful was it? How clinically relevant is it? For perspective, a small effect size is considered 0.2, medium is 0.5, and large is anything over 0.8. SSRIs are anywhere in literature, they hover around like a 0.5. The effects of eight weeks of two times a week of resistance training for 25 minutes was an effect size of 1.7 on reducing the symptoms of depression. That is a massive effect size. And now, again, I'm not saying this is both hand. I am not saying exercise is a replacement for medications for people who need them, because some people may need a medication to get them out of bed just to get them to go exercise. Because again, information is not enough to change behavior. I have seen people who are depressed who literally could not get out of bed.

[Unknown]

That's right. That's right.

[Lane Norton]

So.

[John DeLoney]

But it matter.

[Unknown]

It matters. It matters.

[Lane Norton]

So we know exercise improves cognition, it improves memory, it is neuroprotective. We are seeing so much data now to show that exercise is. It's so interesting. What happens in the body affects the mind, and what happens in the mind affects the body. And like, for example, as somebody who dealt with kind of chronic lower back pain, the biggest game changer for me with reducing my back pain was psychological stress management.

[John DeLoney]

Stress reduction. Yeah.

[Lane Norton]

And this is very clear in the literature and when I started digging into it, also, autoimmune disorders, extremely high correlation with stress. Ibs, very high correlation with psychiatric disorders. And so again, this isn't my area, so I don't want to speak out of turn, but it seems like if you're spun up, if you're ruminating, it's. It's not just here. It's here.

[John DeLoney]

It comes everywhere.

[Lane Norton]

Yeah, but if you do stuff here, it also changes the wiring up here.

[John DeLoney]

Well, and my first, my first thought is, if I can get somebody who's struggling with depression to commit to something over eight weeks and just show up.

[Unknown]

That is, It's. It's the tiny wins. Right? It's the tiny wins. And, and, and. And then you add the physical movement and the accomplishment. And you and I talked this morning.

[Lane Norton]

You keep your promises to yourself.

[Unknown]

That's right.

[John DeLoney]

You tell yourself the truth.

[Unknown]

And you, you can't read a book on confidence. You have to go do things, and your body begins to walk on firmer. So it's, it's cumulative.

[John DeLoney]

And so the, the. I, I think what, what you're saying is Important. And I've reached a point where I want to make sure a, I say this gently, but also I've reached a point that I, I, I carry around a lot of guilt, to oversimplify it. And I, I'm carrying too much burden here.

[Unknown]

I know that. But for 20 years of taking young people and their families in educational environments and essentially patting them on the head and saying, oh, you struggle with acts, you're not ever going to be able to dot, dot, dot, you go over here in the corner, let me fight this for you.

[John DeLoney]

I'll fight these professors, I'll take care of this. Because you have this thing, you struggle with this thing. This part's hard for you. You go over there because just.

[Unknown]

And here's any number of, of my nerdy academic arguments that say that's all you're ever going to be.

[John DeLoney]

And it has been the last five.

[Unknown]

Or six or seven years that I have felt this overwhelming sense of there are true, true, deep. I spent my career with victims. People who have been kicked to the margins, who have been just their lives would are staggering, how rough they've been.

[John DeLoney]

And I have not landed in one of those conversations from telling somebody that their child is dead to talking to assault victims, whatever it is that we.

[Unknown]

Have not landed everyone on the exact same question, what are you gonna do next?

[John DeLoney]

And so it's, it's, it's sitting here.

[Unknown]

And exhaling and saying, I have a top 10 podcast on relationships and my daughter won't talk to me. I gotta go see a therapist. Because that's probably me, right?

[John DeLoney]

It is you saying, I just freaking won the international championship again.

[Unknown]

Which, congratulations, brother. And hey, Deloney, can you talk about something else? Like, something else going on in your life? Right? Like, yeah, I got you.

[John DeLoney]

It is somebody listening to this podcast who is for, for however many years has googled, has gone down the rabbit.

[Unknown]

Holes of what must be this, and it's this in the water and it's.

[John DeLoney]

This and the food dies and it's whatever. And I'm still 30 pounds overweight and.

[Unknown]

Exhaling and going, so you want to.

[Lane Norton]

Know a phrase that I think you're really going to like?

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Lane Norton]

So you know who Ethan Suplee is?

[Unknown]

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

[Lane Norton]

So Ethan, Hollywood actor, favorite actors, lost over £300. And I was on his podcast, he said something very profound to me. He goes, we spend so much time trying to worry about who started the fire, and what we should be doing is just getting the hell out of the house.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Lane Norton]

If the house is on fire. Just get out, get out of the house. And then you can worry about who started it afterwards.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Lane Norton]

And what that is is like he did the same things. He's like, I went down all the rabbit holes. I just needed to start doing stuff. Messy action is way better than ruminating in action.

[Unknown]

That's right.

[Lane Norton]

And we talked about this and I, I've been guilty of this, of. I just, I just need to understand why more or I need to explain why I did something more. Doesn't matter. I mean, it does matter. It does matter.

[John DeLoney]

And when you're safe, you can, you can have that conversation. You can figure it out.

[Lane Norton]

Right?

[John DeLoney]

You can, you can talk to the building code people and y'all can redo the codes.

[Unknown]

Yeah, get out of the house. I love that. Yeah, that's good.

[John DeLoney]

I've been looking for someone I could team up with to offer red light and near infrared light therapy at the highest quality, as well as someone who could help me with my other concerns about our modern living environment. I've tried a number of different companies and products and I'm super excited to be partnering with Bonus Charge, a world leader in red light therapy. I've purchased a number of Bon Charge products with my own money and I love them. Red light and near infrared light therapy has been reviewed in over 4000 peer reviewed studies with 400 plus studies being double blind placebo trials. Not only do these studies show amazing health benefits, not one has shown any negative side effects. Red light therapy can help with boosting your mood, helping with sleep, reducing stress, recovery from aches and pains, better skin and skin health, cellulite stretch marks and more. I use my red light therapy panels and mask both near infrared light and red light 10 to 20 minutes each day and sometimes more. And I often do this during my prayer and meditation time or when I'm having trouble sleeping. It's become a cornerstone of my health and wellness practice. I've also ordered Bon Charge's infrared sauna blanket. There's special lamps and bulbs for my home and more. Bon Charge ships worldwide in rapid time and their products, including red light therapy, are HSA and FSA eligible. BonCharge offers easy returns and exchanges and a 12 month warranty on all Red Light Therapy devices. Go to boncharge.comdolona and use code DeLoney to save 15% off your order. That's B O N c h a R-G-E.com DeLoney and use code DeLoney to save 15%. End for the person who's listening to this they have a good job, and.

[Unknown]

They can't figure out their wife.

[John DeLoney]

They are a great mom, and they can't figure out the professional balance.

[Unknown]

Like, they want to go back to work.

[John DeLoney]

Like, what do you tell the person who on paper has it?

[Unknown]

All right, You're.

[John DeLoney]

You're shredded.

[Unknown]

I mean, our upper buyers are pretty much exactly the same, but other than that, Right.

[John DeLoney]

You've got all the things. Yeah, man.

[Unknown]

There's a part of my life that's a. That's a train wreck right now, and it's so hard to not spiral out.

[John DeLoney]

Most of the people, myself included, who do really good things at scale do.

[Unknown]

That because we have to. To cover up for the stuff that we struggle with. Right.

[John DeLoney]

What do you tell that person who's listening and says, I do this other.

[Unknown]

Thing in my life so good, and I can't get this right, so I must be worthless?

[Lane Norton]

Well, you know, on a micro scale, I think there are things that we naturally are better at and things we're naturally worse at. And in business, one of the things I've kind of done is like, all right, I kind of know what I'm good at. I know my wheelhouse is not really good with organization. I'm good at this other stuff. I can talk, I can break down studies. All right, I'm gonna focus on this, but I'm gonna try and be good enough at this other stuff so that things don't completely fall apart hard. Right. Like, I'm gonna get to a basal level, and you've only got some. I mean, I'm not an expert on this stuff, but you only got so many spoons, right?

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Lane Norton]

And I think the other thing that I. That is true, that I kind of embrace is there are seasons of life, right? And I think for a long time, I want. I thought I was Superman. I want to do everything all at once, right? And, like, one of the things I realized, like, I used to do, and I compete in powerlifting. I love fishing. I go fishing every week on my boat. I loved competition pistol shooting. I would do that. I was a dad running multiple businesses, trying to be an influencer, trying to scale these businesses, like, all. And at a certain point, I'm like, I was just going crazy. Yeah, Right. And I justified. I justifies why you balance in my life. And I think over the course of your lifetime, you want to be balanced, right? Like, you want to spend enough time being a family man with your friends, doing fun stuff with your spouse, significant other, exercising all these sorts of things, Right. But there's Seasons of life. And like right now, for example, like, having two kids, one of whom is special needs, and then having multiple businesses, you know, traveling a lot for work. Okay, now, now is the time that I go pistol shooting every week. Now isn't the time that I go fishing every week.

[John DeLoney]

I think. I think people say they want balance. I think what really people, they want.

[Unknown]

They want peace.

[Lane Norton]

Yeah. And. And I know, like, I tend to have, like this, like, if I can't do something that I want to do, I get, like, real angry. You know, I feel, like, very confined. And you know who else feels that way?

[Unknown]

My son when he was four.

[Lane Norton]

Right.

[John DeLoney]

It's. It's a. It's a. It's a. It's a child, like.

[Lane Norton]

Yeah.

[John DeLoney]

You can't tell me.

[Unknown]

Oh, my gosh.

[John DeLoney]

Right? It's, it's, it's, it's.

[Lane Norton]

And in some ways, it's maturity.

[John DeLoney]

It's grown up.

[Lane Norton]

In some ways. I've been very immature in some aspects of my life. And so, like, I think that is, like, I.

[John DeLoney]

How do you forgive yourself?

[Lane Norton]

Oh, I'm probably the wrong person to ask about that.

[John DeLoney]

How do you.

[Unknown]

How are you navigating your life in a series, in a season of self forgiveness?

[John DeLoney]

How do moms forgive themselves when they.

[Unknown]

Say that one thing? Our dads, when they.

[Lane Norton]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

I mean, like, scream at their kid, like. And they're like, God, yeah, that's, that's.

[Lane Norton]

I've struggled with that.

[John DeLoney]

Or the dad that.

[Unknown]

That hides that one purchase that turns into hiding, the second purchase that hides, too. Oh, God. How do you feel?

[John DeLoney]

How do you forgive yourself?

[Lane Norton]

We were talking about this earlier. I think people like to make things black and white because it's easier for our brains.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Lane Norton]

You know, and the reality is, like, people are messy, you know, And I think just you try to get, like, focused on the. The majority of stuff.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Lane Norton]

Right. Like, do I usually do the right thing? Do I? Do I. Because, like, for me, I. I don't know if what it is, but I. I have a hard time forgiving myself for mistakes. I'll either try to, like, really rationalize them out so that I can make it not a mistake. Right.

[John DeLoney]

Yeah.

[Lane Norton]

Or I will just beat myself up over it.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[John DeLoney]

You know, you beat yourself up more.

[Unknown]

Than most people I know.

[Lane Norton]

Yeah. I mean, I've been told that quite a bit. And again, it's like this. I think one of the things that's been hard for me to find is how do I hold myself accountable while not going to. You're a piece of, you know.

[Unknown]

Yeah, yeah.

[Lane Norton]

And that's something that I personally have struggled with. And I know, like, you, when you talk about food, like, that's where you go, right? Like, you get through those gummy candies and it's like, ah, man, you see.

[John DeLoney]

The rappers and it's, it's just reflective. Yeah.

[Lane Norton]

So I'll tell you something. I had a call. I client who really struggled with binge eating, and he was a hedge fund manager, and when we started working together, he was kind of binge eating, like, every day. And so we really started to unpack, like, what the triggers were for this. We started to unpack, you know, what were the antecedents were for this, what the feelings were, et cetera. And over about a just under a year period, he lost 25 pounds. And he went from binging pretty much every day to like, like once every couple weeks. But still, when he would do it every couple weeks, he would really, like, beat himself up. And I said, hey, man, like, if I told you if I took you in a time machine from where you were at then and took you to here, I think you'd be ecstatic, you know, and you're focusing on that, like, one thing you got really wrong, but you're getting a lot of stuff right, you know? And, you know, I was talking like, my grandfather is somebody I revere, and like, this dude's a legit World War II war hero. Just your typical greatest generation, great family man. Like, I just, I got some of the best wisdom I've ever gotten out of my grandfather. And, you know, I have, I also have a habit of putting people on a pedestal that I like, you know, and I was beating myself up or something, and they were like, what do you think your grandfather would say? And I was like, I think he'd probably say that he didn't agree or was disappointed, but that he knows I'm a good person. And the person I was talking to said, I promise you, if you went through your grandfather's closet of skeletons, you could find something that would make you feel a certain type of way. And that's not to say that that makes doing wrong things okay, but what.

[John DeLoney]

I think, I think you're getting at something so important, I was hoping you'd get there. Can I tell you what I think it is?

[Lane Norton]

Yeah.

[John DeLoney]

I think, I mean, this is your area, not mine. I think I, well, I, I, I'm fascinated because you do you beat yourself up more than most people I know?

[Unknown]

Like, most people that I've spent time with, like, on a particular thing, like get pretty caustic. Right. Or you wear it as you hold it. And I think that means you care more than a lot of people do do. Right. The only way I've figured out so far is how. How to forgive myself is to outsource it. And what I mean by that is I don't think we are. And I'm sure there's neur. I'm sure Hughes can sit in here and. And. And unpack it for us. I don't know that we're built to do that. I think there's reason why 12 step programs in religious communities and even the trust people build in forums. I think there's something profound about sitting in front of somebody and saying, this is all of me. This is what I've done. And exhaling and seeing either the friend or the community member or the therapist or the minister or the spouse say, and I still love you. And I think there's a. Yeah.

[John DeLoney]

In those moments when I can't love.

[Unknown]

Myself, when I can't forgive myself, I think that is where. I think that's the moment when your soul's on fire, that having other people.

[John DeLoney]

That's it.

[Lane Norton]

I think that's one of the most profound things from listening to your show that I've gotten. And I think. Yeah, I think you and I are similar in this, too. It's like, no, no, you wouldn't want to see all me if you saw all me. You wouldn't.

[Unknown]

You run.

[Lane Norton]

You. You.

[John DeLoney]

And it's when. It's when my wife says, no, no.

[Unknown]

I know what I signed up for. Yeah, right. Or it's.

[John DeLoney]

It's. It's the old C.S. lewis quote that's like the definition of.

[Unknown]

Friend is, oh, you too. And everyone just exhales. Right.

[Lane Norton]

Yeah. Well, I think you're getting like, the. I think the underlying thing here that we're. We've kind of touched on that translates across a lot of stuff is I. I think we're. We're in this kind of struggle. And actually I tell young coaches when I'm taking them through my course or the coaches that work for me. You know, what makes really effective coaching are you have to have empathy with accountability. You can't have either one in isolation. And I think there's a little bit of a culture war right now.

[Unknown]

There is.

[Lane Norton]

Where either. Or where. If it's just the empathy piece, which is you have these things happen to you. It's not your fault, the way you acted this way. It's not your fault.

[John DeLoney]

You're less than.

[Unknown]

Go over here in the corner. We'll figure it out.

[Lane Norton]

But also, which. Which kind of like, it sounds like what you were kind of saying to some of these kids, whatever. That feels good in the moment for the person because you've removed some of that personal responsibility. You feel like, okay, well, I only did these things because xyz. Right. And then there's the accountability piece, which is like, you can understand why somebody did something. You can understand why somebody got something wrong, but you can also say you can do it different.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Lane Norton]

This gets into, like, do you actually have free will? Do people actually have free will? Right. And I've always found that kind of funny because I'm like, let's say you don't. Right? Let's say that. What is the usefulness of telling people that? Right.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Lane Norton]

But I've just seen. I don't know. I've seen people change. Yeah.

[John DeLoney]

I wouldn't. You and I wouldn't do our jobs if we didn't.

[Lane Norton]

It's. It is hard. It's really hard. One of my favorite quotes is, think about how hard it is to change yourself and then think about how hard it is to change another person.

[Unknown]

Oh, yeah, exactly.

[Lane Norton]

And there's a. There was a. Did you ever watch Game of Thrones?

[Unknown]

No.

[Lane Norton]

Okay, so there was a character just here and there. But no, there's a character named Jaime Lannister. In the beginning of the. The. The. The show, you hate this guy. And over time, you actually. He ends up kind of becoming a sympathetic character. And there's a. There's a scene where he's looking at this book, and he was a member of the Kingsguard, which was the. Basically, like, the secret Service for the king. Right. He ended up actually killing the old king because the old king was crazy and was killing people.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Lane Norton]

And in. In the book where they're describing all the Kingsguard members and their history, it just says jaime Lannister and basically, like, Kingslayer. Right. Like, killed the king. Right. And he goes. I'm paraphrasing because I don't remember the exact quote, but he goes, I still have space left in my pages. And that is a quote that I've come back to a lot, which is, like. Because I do beat myself up, but to code, I've come back to a lot of. Okay, you say both. And. Right. I'm a good guy. And, yeah, I've gotten some stuff really wrong. Right. But I can do it different.

[John DeLoney]

I get to choose what happens next.

[Lane Norton]

I get to choose what happens Next. But that comes through action, you know, and you can have compassion for yourself and still hold yourself accountable.

[John DeLoney]

That's right.

[Lane Norton]

And that's a difficult balance for a.

[John DeLoney]

Lot of us, and there's still consequences.

[Lane Norton]

Yeah. But it. Right. And I think one of the things that. That I found, and it seems to be supported by literature, is like, shame doesn't really work. Like, it actually makes it worse in some cases. Right. Like, I thought, oh, if I just beat myself up about this, I'll never do it again. No. Because you don't end up, like, changing the wiring that got you there. Right. And so I think when it comes to a lot of these behaviors with. I mean, the stuff to do is not complicated.

[John DeLoney]

I. I think. I think that's the thing I want.

[Unknown]

People to walk away with, is it's very hard, and it's not complicated.

[Lane Norton]

It's simple.

[John DeLoney]

It's hard, but it's simple.

[Lane Norton]

It's. It's like the baby steps. Right?

[Unknown]

That's right.

[Lane Norton]

You look at those, you go, that's not complicated.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Lane Norton]

It's got to be more complicated than that.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Lane Norton]

But it doesn't mean it's easy.

[John DeLoney]

It's very uncomfortable.

[Lane Norton]

Calories out.

[Unknown]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Lane Norton]

Not comp. Well, it doesn't appear complicated. Doesn't mean it's easy.

[Unknown]

No.

[John DeLoney]

And.

[Unknown]

And.

[John DeLoney]

And. And when I started using Carbon, like.

[Unknown]

The app that you guys created, I.

[John DeLoney]

Was astounded that the. The peanut butter cups that I grab on the admin's desk, walking by my cubicle every single day of my life.

[Unknown]

Had 120 calories each in them.

[Lane Norton]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

Like what?

[John DeLoney]

I eat six of those a day. Just one here and one here. They're little bitty things.

[Lane Norton]

Yep.

[John DeLoney]

I worked out hard this morning, Lane.

[Unknown]

For an hour, I did 60 Minutes.

[Lane Norton]

Yeah.

[John DeLoney]

And I think I was at 750.

[Lane Norton]

Yeah.

[John DeLoney]

So that hour that I burned this.

[Unknown]

Morning, getting after it, which, by the.

[Lane Norton]

Way, you were actually more like 400 or 500, of course, because these overestimate.

[John DeLoney]

But disagree. Agree to disagree. I. I ate the whole thing back in. Right. And so it's. I didn't like it. It was uncomfortable. When I'm just having a steak with.

[Unknown]

The family, and it's like, that steak's 3,000 calories after you get done all the stuff on it. Right.

[John DeLoney]

And so it does take an adjustment. And the same as I tell young people, when they're like, hey, we. We can't afford our apartment, and I.

[Unknown]

Say, here, and I hate that for you, because you've had a picture in your head, for your whole life. And everyone told you if you just go get this degree and get this job and get this thing, you can do whatever you want, wherever you want. And they didn't tell you the truth because math doesn't care.

[John DeLoney]

And I hate.

[Lane Norton]

Sell the car.

[John DeLoney]

Let's hug. Yeah. Y'all have to live in Kansas because it's cheaper to live there if you want to be a book editor if you like. So it's just this reckoning with reality. And I think for me, the quicker we. People can wrap their head around, okay, here I am.

[Unknown]

The, the quicker you can get about the business of. I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna take the next right stab.

[Lane Norton]

Yeah. I mean like we're saying don't smoke, exercise, don't eat too much. I mean, those are. If you do those three things, I mean, don't. Don't drink or limit your alcohol intake.

[Unknown]

Yeah, yeah.

[Lane Norton]

Don't do drugs. Sleep it up.

[John DeLoney]

Sleep. Yeah. Have some friends.

[Lane Norton]

That's 95% of it right there. Like, we can argue in the margins, but that's it right there.

[John DeLoney]

And it's, I think, I think letting most people know, okay, it is fun to go down a conspiracy theory rabbit.

[Unknown]

Hole so that there's some secret group putting, putting stuff in the water sources to make us all like, that's cool. Awesome.

[John DeLoney]

And I love those.

[Unknown]

Like anybody but let's pick up the dollars.

[Lane Norton]

You know what's really funny? So I read a several studies that actually showed that that stronger conspiracy is like people who are more likely to buy into conspiracy theories are more likely to have narcissistic tendencies. And I have those proclivities as well. To believe some of these things that.

[John DeLoney]

I'm seeing somebody else is seeing.

[Lane Norton]

It's sexy, right?

[Unknown]

That's right.

[Lane Norton]

But there is a lot of it is because again, if there's some grand conspiracy working against you in the background, you don't have to take responsibility for your own bad choices you've made made. Right.

[John DeLoney]

Or.

[Unknown]

Or walking through the hell that somebody else put in your life. Right, Right.

[Lane Norton]

Or like a, you know, market crash in 08. Well, if you weren't over leveraged.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Lane Norton]

Okay. Yeah. Like, bad stuff happens, but bad stuff's always going to happen.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Lane Norton]

And do you build what.

[Unknown]

What's the foundation you build your house on?

[Lane Norton]

Exactly.

[Unknown]

Thank you for being my friend by Def.

[Lane Norton]

You.

[Unknown]

Like, for real. I'm glad you're my friend and I'm glad you always, always pick up the phone when I call you. And I can't say that about a lot. So thank you.

[Lane Norton]

Same.

[Unknown]

That means the world.

[John DeLoney]

All right. Hey, everybody, listen to this. Helix, the makers of the best mattresses in the universe, are having a new year sale going on right now. I was traveling a ton this holiday season and when I was out on the road, I was counting down the days until I could get back into mind my Helix mattress. Sleeping on my Helix mattress has transformed my rest and I'm getting into new levels of deep, refreshing sleep. And I've said this a lot. I'm going to keep saying it. Everyone in my immediate family now sleeps on a Helix mattress. All of them. My son, my daughter, all of us. And my family is all different, just like you are all different. And because everyone sleeps in their own unique way, Helix has created different mattress models designed for side sleepers and stomach sleepers and back sleepers for everyone. And if your spine needs a little extra love, they have mattresses for you too. Plus, Helix offers a hundred night trial. And all Helix mattresses come with either a 10 or 15 year warranty. Here's what I want you to do. I want you to get online and take the Helix sleep quiz just like I did. And it will help you find the perfect mattress for your sleep preferences in less than two minutes. Here's the best part. Helix has a new year sale going on right now. Now 25 off site wide, plus two dream pillows with a mattress purchase and a free bedding bundle go to Helix H E l I x helixsleep.com DeLoney today that's helixsleep.com DeLoney for all of this great discount with Helix, better sleep starts right now. All right, that was my conversation with the great and powerful, literally great and powerful Dr. Lane Norton. We're going to link to everything including the Carbon app in the show notes. The carbon apps is the app that I use to help me maintain calories in and calories out and energy usage, all that stuff. We're going to link to everything there. And if you get nothing else from this episode, know this. All of us from, from, from world champions to knuckleheads like me, to everybody body, we're all just trying to scratch and claw and make the world a little bit better place. And so if you ever feel like I'm not getting this perfect, I messed this up, even though I got this right, just know you're not alone. You're not alone. We're all walking through this madness together. And that's how we're gonna get to the other side. Thanks for being with us. I love you guys. Stay in school. Now go lift some weights. You need some protein or, you know. Love you guys.

[Unknown]

Bye.

[John DeLoney]

Hey, what's up, folks? Big news. The Dr. John DeLoney show is now available a full week early in the Ramsey Network app. That's right. You can catch all the real talk of mental health, relationships, emotional health before anyone else. And the best part, it's completely free. Just click the link in the show notes to download the Ramsey Network app and start watching early today.