Off the Record: Steven Curtis and Mary Beth Chapman

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Dr. John Delony Show

Episode: Off the Record: Steven Curtis and Mary Beth Chapman
Date: May 30, 2026
Host: Dr. John Delony (Ramsey Network)
Guests: Steven Curtis Chapman (contemporary Christian musician) & Mary Beth Chapman (author, advocate)
Theme: Marriage, resilience, grief, and the honest struggle of staying together through the hardest seasons

---

Episode Overview

This special "Off the Record" episode features an open, honest, and engaging conversation with Steven Curtis Chapman and his wife Mary Beth Chapman. Together with Dr. John Delony, they discuss their new book Still Here—chronicling four decades of marriage marked by tremendous highs, devastating loss (including the death of their daughter), public scrutiny, and the daily choice to stick together.

With a blend of humor, candor, and vulnerability, the Chapmans reflect on the realities behind long-term marriage: the myths of “happily ever after,” the futility of formulaic fixes, the ongoing journey toward each other, and faith’s messy, painful, and hopeful role in it all.

---

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Writing Honestly About Marriage

• The Catalyst: The Chapmans’ song “I Will Be Here” prompted publishers to offer them marriage book deals, but they resisted, believing their story was more a guide on what "not to do."

  • “We always said the only marriage book we could write is what not to do, not to do it right. Mistakes to avoid.” – Steven Curtis Chapman [14:35]

• The Process: Writing the book forced them to relive old wounds but also celebrate victories.

  • “Doing these interviews and the writing process... it's been like, we no longer did it, we conquered it, we made it.” – Mary Beth Chapman [04:24]

• Fear and Humor: They joked—and seriously worried—about the pressure writing a marriage book put on their actual marriage.

  • “Is it a problem that we actually are divorced now?” – Steven Curtis Chapman [06:50]

2. How They Met and Early Marriage

• The Meeting: Both had the last name “Chapman” and met at college sharing a mailbox.

  • “We met at Anderson College... shared a mailbox because our last names were the same.” – Mary Beth Chapman [08:26]

• Courtship and Quick Engagement: Met in September, engaged by March, married in October; Mary Beth was 19.

  • “Thus the holy headlock and wedlock.” – Mary Beth Chapman [11:04]

• Financial Beginnings: Steven used his first songwriting royalty check to buy her engagement ring.

  • “My first songwriting royalty check is what bought her engagement ring. All what, $800 of it. Little, tiny. It’s a Canardly diamond.” – Steven Curtis Chapman [12:04]

3. Debunking the "If Only" Myth

• Economic/Fame Misconceptions: Delony points out that many couples believe stability or success will fix all problems. The Chapmans categorically disagree.

  • “People could look from the outside... but then we could flip that around... must be nice to not have the expectations and pressures.” – Steven Curtis Chapman [15:52]
  • “It's the pressure. How do you manage it? How do you love a family and raise your kids and care for your wife?” – Steven Curtis Chapman [15:54]
  • Marriage is not fixed by external success, and fame brings new challenges and pressures.

• No Magic Fix: Longing for “the right conference” or “right book” is a misguided hope. Marriage, the Chapmans insist, is ongoing work—"two sinful people trying to love each other."

  • “What we call the process, God calls the end.” – Steven Curtis Chapman (paraphrasing Mrs. Oswald Chambers) [17:42]
  • “There is not going to be a fix for this. It’s called heaven.” [17:52]

4. Faith, Avoidance, and Looking in the Mirror

• Faith as Avoidance: Within religious communities, there’s a temptation to use prayer as a way to avoid facing personal responsibility in marriage.

  • “I often see folks... trying to give it to God... as an avoidance mechanism of looking in the mirror. Here's what I need to go work on for me.” – John Deloney [20:21]
  • “If prayer is an avoidance to say, just keep talking to God, but what are you praying?” – Steven Curtis Chapman [24:53]

• Personal & Mutual Responsibility: Both Chapmans emphasize the core of marriage is self-examination, humility, and the willingness to serve and forgive each other.

  • “How do we bear with one another in love? How do we esteem the other more important than me?” – Mary Beth Chapman [22:53]
  • "Look in the mirror, see the reality of who you really are apart from the grace of God..." – Steven Curtis Chapman [26:06]

5. Changed Expectations, Evolving Love

• Wiring and Differences: Learning to accept and embrace their differences (e.g., the “tattoo story”).

  • “I remember... one of the first monumental moments of me having to recognize how different we are wired... and embracing that.” – Steven Curtis Chapman [31:21]
  • “He has a big fat tattoo now.” – Mary Beth Chapman [37:22]

• Shifting Roles: They reflect on how both partners inevitably change. Nostalgia for when "we were amazing," but growth means accepting—and celebrating—the shifts.

  • "The thing I get paid to do is the thing she loves the least about me." – John Deloney [47:32]
  • “...that’s not the person you married because you didn’t marry a mom... or a guy who was trying to navigate a career... things start to change.” – Steven Curtis Chapman [51:42]

• Learning to Ask: Communicating clear ways your spouse can support you, e.g., offering a simple invitation ("could you ask me this one question?").

  • “Can I tell you a way you could love me? ... And it's silly. ... If I walk in after an event, would you just ask me one question?” – John Deloney [55:45]

6. Navigating Public Life and Privacy

• Fame’s Burden: Mary Beth describes the pressure of public expectation, wanting normalcy for her kids, and not being comfortable as a public figure.

  • “Both of us come from very simple families... how are we gonna do this and be as normal... as we can be?” – Mary Beth Chapman [42:41]
  • “I always felt like I couldn't be his bride... I'm like, you know, I'm the one that wanted a tattoo...” – Mary Beth Chapman [41:10]

• Boundaries in Marriage: Being honest about what you can and can't do (public interviews, giving feedback, etc.)—and protecting each other.

  • “Don’t ever, ever do that again to my wife, because that is not her place. I can do that. ... She did not sign up for this.” – Steven Curtis Chapman [46:03]

7. The Reality—and Survival—of Grief

• Public Loss: The Chapmans lost a daughter in a very public accident. They address the near inevitability of such trauma leading to divorce, and how they navigated.

  • “Most, 90% of marriages... don’t survive the loss of a child.” – Steven Curtis Chapman [62:04]
  • “We know every counselor in Nashville... just trying to keep this ship afloat.” – Steven Curtis Chapman [62:10]

• Different Grieving Styles: Their ways of processing pain diverged significantly—which was a new, hard tension.

  • “You grieve differently than I grieve. Then he'd have a good day, and I'd be like, I don't know how you can have a good day, I'm having a terrible day.” – Mary Beth Chapman [66:16]

• Anger and Disappointment with God: Both admit to deep anger, faith crisis, and the ongoing, gnawing "why" of suffering.

  • “I was very, very mad for a long, long time... He didn't protect us. Like, could have stopped it.” – Mary Beth Chapman [65:10]

• Hobbling, Not Sprinting: Their son describes their marriage not as perfect, but as one that “hobbles well”—persevering through brokenness, honest repairs, and continual effort.

  • “[Our son] has dubbed us the Hobblers. He said that we hobble well, that we haven’t done it perfectly, but we hobble well.” – Mary Beth Chapman [59:46]

• Surviving with Authentic Faith: For Steven, the Psalms became his lifeline; sometimes all he could do was pray to make it through the day.

  • “God, I got through today, but please don't ask me to do another day. I just cannot wake up tomorrow.” – Steven Curtis Chapman [70:16]
  • “I would take a breath... and just... blessed be the name of the Lord. You give and you take away. I am going to choose... to worship you.” [70:25]

8. Communication, Curiosity, and Humility

• Curiosity Over Judgment: Staying interested in each other, especially after years of “being over it.”

  • “We have to be curious with each other instead of judgmental.” – Mary Beth Chapman [56:35]

• Modeling Repair for Kids: Being deliberate in seeking forgiveness and showing their children humility and honesty.

  • “How do we repair that well in front of our children and ask for that forgiveness? ... Model the repair.” – Mary Beth Chapman [58:47]

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments with Timestamps

• “The only marriage book we could write is what not to do, not to do it right.” – Steven Curtis Chapman [14:35]
• “We're not out of the woods until we walk into heaven. The enemy has not said, ‘let's go find someone else to pick on.’” – Steven Curtis Chapman [06:26]
• “Thus the holy headlock and wedlock.” – Mary Beth Chapman [11:04]
• “If only we could get to the right conference, if we can just read the right book, then we’ll make it.” – Steven Curtis Chapman [15:47]
• “I just needed to go hug my kid... and I’m out.” – John Deloney [70:22]
• “What we call the process, God calls the end.” – Steven Curtis Chapman [17:42]
• “We want what we want, how we want it... How do we bear with one another in love, esteem the other more important than ourselves?” – Mary Beth Chapman [22:50]
• “We hobble well.” – Mary Beth Chapman quoting their son [59:46]
• “The thing I get paid to do is the thing she loves the least about me.” – John Deloney [47:32]
• “That was my... I was very, very mad for a long, long time... I was just falling through the air and I eventually landed on the firm foundation that is Jesus.” – Mary Beth Chapman [65:10–67:00]
• “The Psalms became so much more real to me... I would take a breath and just... ‘Blessed be the name of the Lord. You give and you take away.’” – Steven Curtis Chapman [70:25]

---

Timestamps of Important Segments

• Chapmans on Writing About Marriage / Book Genesis: [00:05–07:47]
• Early Relationship & Marriage: [08:11–14:21]
• External Success ≠ Marital Success: [14:21–20:19]
• Faith, Avoidance, and Responsibility: [20:19–27:45]
• Accepting Each Other's Differences (“Tattoo Story”): [30:40–38:09]
• Navigating Public Roles & Marriage: [41:18–47:45]
• Growing, Changing, Accepting Evolving Spouse: [50:01–56:09]
• Curiosity, Communication, Repair: [56:35–59:56]
• Loss of Daughter & Grieving as a Couple: [61:06–70:25]

---

Conclusion

This episode reveals why the Chapmans are so respected: not for an aura of perfection, but for hardscrabble honesty, deep love, and a scrappy faith that has survived devastation. Their story isn’t a how-to manual; it’s an invitation to keep “hobbling” forward—imperfectly, together, with humility, curiosity, and hope.

---

For listeners navigating marriage, long-term partnership, or profound grief, this episode is a rare, powerful window into the real work of love and endurance.

Transcript

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

That song kind of blew up, and people started using it at weddings, and publishers came and said, you know, that's a big song. You should write a book about your wonderful marriage.

[Mary Beth Chapman]

Have you been fired by a counselor yet?

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

Cause we've been fired because we know we're not out of the woods until we walk into. We walk into heaven. I mean, where does he park?

[Mary Beth Chapman]

We had some really tough, almost call it moments. There were days where it's like, I'm not working on this today. You can do that. What up?

[John Deloney]

Welcome to another special episode of off the Record with John. I'm John Deloney, host of the Dr. John DeLoney show, and I've started incorporating more conversations with people that I love, people I'm interested in, people who inspire me. And you all continue to say, hey, have more of these conversations. So we're having more conversations and we started this little. Named it something different called off the Record. And it's been a blast. This time I'm sitting down with the great and powerful Stephen Curtis Chapman and his wife, Mary Beth Chapman. Now, if you don't know who that is in the contemporary Christian music world, this is like Garth Brooks of that planet, right? I grew up a punk rock kid and a metal kid, but I did go to Sunday school. And even peripherally, I knew who Stephen Curtis Chapman was because he was the legend. He was the ultimate, right? He's won about 8 billion awards of all kinds for his music, his songwriting, and he's been married for decades to Mary Beth Chapman. Now, here's where this conversation is important. They have a brand new book out called Still Here, and it's a discussion on the challenges they've experienced being married and how they've stuck it out and hung in there despite the loss of a child, despite all sorts of challenges, professionally, personally. And so we dig into that in this conversation. How does somebody of his caliber, of her caliber, decide we're going to stick it out and stay married? Especially when things get really, really hard. Hard. Now, if you're listening to this and one and thinking like, right, it makes sense to be like, well, I'm not married to super musician or I don't even listen to Christian music. I get it. But this conversation is a really powerful one. And so it applies to my house. It applies to your house. It applies if you've been married for a long, long time. It applies if you're in the middle of a marriage that's just drifted apart. This applies to you if you're thinking about getting married to somebody and you're thinking about asking them and you don't even know how it's going to look 5, 10, 20, 40 years from now. This is a powerful conversation, so buckle up for a great conversation with my friend Stephen and his amazing wife Mary Beth, as we talk about their marriage and their brand new book still here. So I was shocked at how when I was sitting down, thinking about the moment, like, in my head, it's a singular moment. And my wife jokes, she's like, we had that, like, happened five times, like, over the course. We've been married 23 and a half years. When we sat across the table and we were like, is this it? Like, we have to call it, like, the. The thing we had is over. Do we want to do something? We want to build something else? Because this thing's over. And so writing it down for me, I was shocked at how much of that began to become real again. I thought that we had. I thought by moving through it, the feelings of that stuff was. Was over.

[Mary Beth Chapman]

Yeah.

[John Deloney]

How is writing this? Did that stuff come back? Some of those old stories, old, like, conflict moments?

[Mary Beth Chapman]

Yeah, I think it does. And for us, at the same time, I won't put words in your mouth. I think it also, I have found that doing some of these interviews, it's been reassuring to go, wait, we did that. We had some really tough, almost call it moments, like, really hard, really hard. It's been a journey. And yet doing some of these interviews and the writing process, it's been like we no longer did it, we conquered

[John Deloney]

it, we made it.

[Mary Beth Chapman]

And. Yeah, and it's both. It's both, right? Cause it's like there were days where it's like, I'm not working on this today. You can do that. I can't. I can't.

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

It really does feel like, you know, those. The stones of remembrance, you know, in the Old Testament and the Israelites, you know those Ebenezer stones, you know, gonna build those and, you know, stack those stones up so that when you come back here years later and you know your kids and grandk kids are going to go, what's that? One of those stones tacked. What's that about? And you're going to have an opportunity to remember again. Well, God did this right here. And the waters, the Jordan were held back and we crossed over in this crazy miracle thing that you're going to need. And I feel like that's part of what has been a real. In a way, it's funny. Scotty Smith, we'll probably say his name 100 times as we're talking because he's written on just about every page of that along with us because he's journeyed with us as our friend. Pastor. Yeah. One of our first and main counselors probably through many of our years and would direct us. I think you need to go talk to this person now. I think you ought to go talk to that person. So. But he would talk about things that God uses almost as a Trojan horse. You know, some of these things that you, God's in this and doing something and you think it's this, but it's actually, he's actually doing something bigger and you might, you know, you won't even see it. And we, I think this book in some ways has kind of been that for us because it's, I'm not, it sounds funny and we kind of light heartedly say this, but it was really scary even going into this process even after 41 years because we know we're not, we're not out of the woods until we walk into, until we walk into heaven. I mean, and I mean the enemy is not, you know, said, hey, yeah, I guess they, you know, they made it this far. So let's, let's go find somebody else to pick on.

[John Deloney]

No, it's not. Hold my beer.

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

If you want to dance, let's dance. So, so going into this, it was, there were moments even early on where I thought, well crap, this is really going to be bad that we get, you know, about three fourths of the way through this project and we have to call the publisher and go, is it a problem that we actually are divorced now?

[John Deloney]

That's right.

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

Is that going to be an issue with this? You're probably going to, you know, exact

[John Deloney]

conversation with my wife. I'm like the subtitle How I Lost My Marriage. Writing a book on marriage.

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

Yeah. So I mean, and that was a real thing. And yet I think for, for me and for both of us, we're hearing ourselves even in these interviews and, and we, we did the audiobook for it, which that was even another like, are we going to survive this? Because we're going to go back through all this and read it to each other. And I know my wife well enough to go, wait a minute, I said, I said, well I can, I do, can I retract that? Because I don't feel like that right now. But it was, it's been so good to just, I think hear our own voices and each other's voices reaffirm and you know, sort of confirm the things that are here, that are God's, to God's glory. And this is what God's done. This is what our journeys look like. We're still in it. We're still in process, but we did finish it, and we're still married. And that's good.

[Mary Beth Chapman]

You know, anytime you're trying to step, you know, and push darkness back and help somebody, you would be foolish not to think that the enemy's not gonna rear its ugly head. Which is why I keep telling Steve, maybe we should, like, let's go start a casino.

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

Yeah.

[Mary Beth Chapman]

Something, right?

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

Can we. Can we.

[Mary Beth Chapman]

Maybe we should do something where the enemy's not like. I'm not on that.

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

That's okay.

[Mary Beth Chapman]

Go ahead.

[John Deloney]

So how'd y' all meet?

[Mary Beth Chapman]

Oh, this is fun. So my maiden name is Chapman. Did you know that?

[John Deloney]

Gross.

[Mary Beth Chapman]

It is gross and awesome. And he's from Kentucky, so.

[John Deloney]

It's Kentucky.

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

That explains it.

[Mary Beth Chapman]

We met at Anderson College in Anderson, Indiana, and we shared a mailbox because our last names were the same.

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

That's how we met. Yes. True story. It was my true story.

[Mary Beth Chapman]

And so I saw his name, he saw my name, and I chased her down.

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

Well, I saw her first walking across campus. And a friend of mine, literally, we were walking to cafeteria, and this beautiful brown eyed girl that I'd never seen on campus before walks by and he waved and say, hey, hi, Mary Beth. And I'm like, who is that? Because we'd been there a couple of years. This is my third, third year, and she was a freshman. And he said, I met her last night at a orientation thing and he was, you know, going to check out, I'm sure all the new incoming freshmen. And. And I. He said, her name is Mary Beth. And I remember him saying, wait a minute, I think her last name's Chapman. You guys, y' all could, like, be related. And I was thinking, I hope not. Yeah. And although I'm from Kentucky, so that doesn't matter.

[John Deloney]

Could be.

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

It could be. You know, that's. That. That's.

[Mary Beth Chapman]

Which explains our kids.

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

Yeah. Yeah. So we met at her mailbox and. Or I saw her name and then. Because I already had seen her and thought, man, she's quite lovely. I found her in the cafeteria, saw her, sent out some spies like, watch for this girl. She's coming across campus now. This was before cell phones, computers, babe.

[Mary Beth Chapman]

This was before the.

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

Barely. This is before electricity. I gotta say this before fire.

[John Deloney]

This used to be called romantic, and now it's called stalking, right?

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

Yeah, exactly.

[John Deloney]

I used to leave a class early just because I knew the woman who's my wife now was walking across campus to go to her next class. We would just bump into each other.

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

I just happened to be standing out.

[John Deloney]

That would be weird and creepy. It was. She was like, man, he left class for me.

[Mary Beth Chapman]

Yeah, it was super intentional. Right. Like, this is before computers, Internet, texting.

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

I mean, and I. I had a friend. Friends would call, and we had one phone on the dorm floor and ring Chapman. And it was like, my buddy Dave, hey, Mary Beth sighting 12 o'. Clock. She's coming across campus. So I would just happen to be standing out in front of my. My dorm at the same. You know, at that time. And so that's kind of a. Met her, asked her on a date, took her to Red Lobster. Popcorn shrimp and. And cheddar bay biscuits. Felt fell in love, you know, and. Yep.

[John Deloney]

So how soon after we all married?

[Mary Beth Chapman]

We met in September, got engaged in March, and got married in October.

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

Oh, and following. Yeah.

[Mary Beth Chapman]

Yeah. And I was 19, so. Thus the holy headlock and wedlock.

[John Deloney]

On it.

[Mary Beth Chapman]

On it.

[John Deloney]

I'm trying to think now. I worked at universities for 20 years. I can't imagine the phone call from the parent of the freshman girl saying, you gave my daughter a shared mailbox with a junior dude in college. I probably won't do that. That's awesome.

[Mary Beth Chapman]

Yeah. Yeah. I was a freshman. And so we made the decision then to move. You know, things were. He was writing at the time. We didn't really know what was happening. I mean, sure, but he was writing. And you thought you could move here. He transferred to Belmont.

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

I'd had a few songs cut and published. Well, no, actually, I guess the first. The first song cut.

[Mary Beth Chapman]

The Imperials.

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

Imperials. But were we dating and I told you about that or had already. I can't remember.

[Mary Beth Chapman]

I think it was happening while we were dating.

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

Yeah.

[Mary Beth Chapman]

Anyhow, we. He. We moved here and I got a job. And you went to school.

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

That's right, I did. I took my royalty check. My first songwriting royalty check is what bought her engagement ring.

[John Deloney]

Nice.

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

All what, $800 of it. Little, tiny. It's a Canardly diamond.

[Mary Beth Chapman]

It's a Canardley.

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

Canardly. Can see it, but it's there. It's there, baby. It's one of those rare Canardly diamonds.

[John Deloney]

That's right. Okay, so what was. When I sit down with. With couples, especially behind closed doors, they'll come and stay at our house for a couple days or they'll come meet us here in Nashville. One of the universal beliefs they bring with them is, if we could just. If we could just get stability economically, if we could just. If his job would hit, if this business would just boom, then all this other stuff takes care of itself. And y' all are a good, outsized, like, so far outside the bell curve that it becomes a fun case study for. For me, like, you've had to add three or four mantles to. You don't have an award on your mantle. You have five. You have to have nine mantles, right? And so I can imagine the person watching this or listening to you guys story and say, yeah, but all these things were taken care of. You got the fame and the fortune and the money and the success and the yacht and. And amazing. Like. And I've told you this privately, like, your kids are like some of my favorite people on the planet because you. You let them. I. I can see since being in their presence, a, they're super respectful and kind and just lovely humans. But they didn't have parents who said, y' all are going to live the life we want you to live. I can see. I can experience in them. I had two parents that said, oh, that's who they are. Our job is to help them become the best version of that. Right? Which is, golly, dude. As a guy who's worked with young people my whole life, it's like, when you see them, you feel them. You're like, that's it. That's how you do that, right? So, but you have that, and yet this book exists. So what do you say to the couple who's sitting there thinking, or the person who's saying, if, man, if I could just the. Like, what do you say to that couple? I'll just leave it at that.

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

Well, part of the reason this book maybe took as many years as it did to write is because of that very thing, I think, so much of our journey, and this is probably more on me, but I think both of us are a little bit guilty of this or fall prey to this. But I think for so many years, I was convinced that because we're as broken and as big of a mess. I mean, honestly, we don't joke when we say the reason we didn't want to write a book. People kept approaching us publishers ever since I wrote the song I Will Be here, which is 37 years ago now. And that song kind of blew up, and people started using it at weddings, and publishers came and said, you know, that's a big song. You should write a book about your wonderful marriage. And we always said the only marriage book we could write is what not to do, not to do it Right. Mistakes to avoid. You know, the guys who write the books are the guys that have the, you know, they're scars to prove. They're, you know, they're. They're, you know, they're. Well, they're experts. You know, you write your five love languages and your 10, you know, keys and hidden keys of successful, all that, and we're like, we just don't have any of that. And there was a lot of. Especially in me, but I think in both of us. If only we could. If we can just get to the right conference, if we can just get to the right counselor, if we can just read the right book. And we would.

[Mary Beth Chapman]

If you just get your calendar figured out.

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

If I can just get my calendar figured out and then go to the counselor who says. And we sit down and say, we just need to get figured out how to do the calendar. And there were even moments where, you know, okay, if I need to quit doing this. Because people could look from the outside to your point and say, yeah, must be nice. You know, but then we could flip that around very easily and go, yeah, it must be nice to not have the expectations and the pressures. And, you know, people say, what's it like to win a Grammy Award? You know, And I'll say, man, it's awesome for about 15 minutes. And that's when all the high fives are happening. But you walk out of that, you know, out of the press room, and you walk into the, you know, room with your manager and your, you know, booking agent and your record label, and everybody's like, man, the next one. Oh, boy, Think of what we can build on with this tomorrow morning. The pressure. Yeah, yeah. And it's just. It's the pressure. So, you know, all of that is amazing and incredible as it is, is a whole lot of then pressure, expectation. How do you manage it? How do you, you know, love a family and raise your kids and care for your wife? And you look and you see the toll it's taken on her. And then I'm sitting with my, you know, manager and record label in tears going, guys, I think I might have to pull the plug on this because I'm not going to lose my marriage and my family over this. And so we pray through it and. And, you know, and then, of course, the pressure that puts on her to go, oh, great, I'm going to be the one responsible for completely demolishing, you know, a. A God calling Career, that's on you. Yeah, no pressure there. So it is. There's a lot of layers of. Of, you know, hard to. That. And I foolishly can see now, and it's really taken. I mean, this is not something I figured out in 10 years. It's 40 years almost, and still figuring it out that, that. Boy, if only we could get to the right conference, if we only read the right book, the right counselor could just fix us and tell me, give me the workbook, give me the thing to do, I'll do it. And both of us that way and realizing we are so much more complicated, complex. And the truth is, you know, What God, what Mrs. Oswald Chambers, you know, says, what we call the process, God calls the end. You know, we, we. We want to see it as, you know, we just want to find that. That end, that fix. And God says, hey, trust me and, and do the next thing and keep trusting me. And this journey is where I'm going to show up. And it's going way more complicated because you're not, you know, you are two sinful people trying to love each other and be on the journey, and there is not going to be a fix for this. It's called heaven. You're longing for that, and that's a great longing, but you got to keep longing for that and realize that what is it, you know, what's it going to be like to show up today and keep loving each other and bearing with one another and the ways you're going to disappoint each other and hurt each other and can you keep doing that and trusting me? You know, for. For the grace that you're going to need to keep doing that? And that's a lot of. A lot of the marriage books and things even that we would get just set us up for. For disappointment. Because it's like, man, we're on page 10 and we've already screwed up everything on every page. We haven't done the date night right. We haven't done this right. We can't seem to get that together. And then there's just more shame and more, well, we've just screwed this up. I guess we're never going to make it.

[John Deloney]

I get existential and it's like, oh, maybe we're not supposed to be together.

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

Or maybe like, yeah, maybe we just made the wrong.

[John Deloney]

I made the wrong call. And yeah, let's just call it for what it was. And it was fun and good, but let's. Yeah, I think it's existential. This is so there's a big chunk of people of various faith communities who listen to the show, and there's. There's a big chunk of people who don't know. So this might sound like a strange question and push back on me if I'm wrong here for folks inside of faith communities to ask this question. Often when folks, when they're, when they're trying to stay married, they got young kids running around, they got careers and try to manage it all, and they're in a faith context, the advice is often you just need to give it over to God. You just need to pray more. You need to kind of almost, what you said, like, follow these steps and do these things.

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

Yeah.

[John Deloney]

What I have found in the. Again, this is anecdotal. And push back and say, john, that's screwed up and that's wrong. I often see folks, quote, unquote, trying to give it to God or look to the heavens as an avoidance mechanism of looking to the mirror. Here's what I'm bringing to this thing and here's what I need to go work on for me so that I can show up and give myself away to this person for the rest of my life and hope to God she does it back.

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

Right.

[John Deloney]

Does that ring true? That it's just a constant avoidance of who's that man or woman in the mirror that needs a lot of work. Right. And prayer is part of that work. Of course. And it's got to be rooted into something big and strong.

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

Yeah.

[John Deloney]

But, man, there's a lot of. Avoidance, I guess, is the right word.

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

Sure. Yeah.

[Mary Beth Chapman]

I just. Yeah, I would echo that. I think there is a lot of, you know, if we can, you know, pray harder, you know, meet with our small group more, you know, whatever. Whatever it is, you know, get with our pastor, get with our counselor and not have the willingness to realize. I think for me, I think I spent a lot of our early ongoing, you know, marriage going if I could just get him to. If he would just da, da, da. If I have to listen to blah, blah, blah, or, you know, and there's a lot of I, I, I. Which is interesting. Cause I think in 2026, there's a lot of focus on people being, I have to be my. I have to be my best me. And I can't. If I can't be my best me, then, you know, I can't. I can't, you know, serve him well or whatever. There's truth to that. Right. We need to take care of ourselves, obviously. We need to take care of ourselves. And be healthy and all those things. And we need to realize that there is a sinner. When I look in the mirror and there's a lot of. I'm a selfish. You know, I want what I want, how I want it. And I think it's taken a lifetime of, you know, realizing it more and more and more that this book could have been written in one sentence. And that is, how do we bear with one another in love? How do we esteem the other more important than me? You know, how do I just. I have my desires. I have my wants. How do I take it to, you know. Yes. Taking it to God in prayer and going, you know, I have an enemy. It's not him. He's not my enemy. There is an enemy. And how do I, you know, purge the. You know, the selfish nature of myself, too? So I think what you're speaking is a lot of truth. A lot of truth that we by nature are unwilling to look at our own, you know, log in our eye because we're constantly picking at the speck, you know, of. You just need to be better at this. And, you know, I would be happy if you would. Da, da, da, da, da. Instead of, you know, look looking inward a little bit.

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

Yeah. I think it's interesting. When you said that, I thought about the one counselor who, you know. So go and named who.

[Mary Beth Chapman]

There's been so many. So many. So much of counseling.

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

Yeah. So much too much, too much. Chapman, you.

[John Deloney]

I'll be the first to say, we're. We're over. Therapized in a pretty significant way.

[Mary Beth Chapman]

Have you been fired by a counselor yet? Because we've been fired.

[John Deloney]

We've been like, I'm. I'm a terrible client. Like, I'll say, being we've been let

[Mary Beth Chapman]

go, we've been like, I don't. We don't think we can help you.

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

Yeah. Sorry. I think.

[Mary Beth Chapman]

What is that?

[John Deloney]

I think we're.

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

I think you're beyond. Yeah. We don't even know why you're still married.

[Mary Beth Chapman]

Says we're determined.

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

Good for you. But we're. We got no. We got nothing else to help you. I'm like, well, okay, thank you for being honest enough to tell us that. But I was going to say there was one who. Who's now passed on, is with Jesus, but told me that I prayed. Chapman, you prayed too much. You need to stop praying so much. You know, which was like, okay, well, what in the world? But to your point of. If prayer is, you know, an avoidance to, you know, to say, hey, I Just need to keep, you know, just keep talking to God about. But what are you praying? You know, because the reality is, you know, I think early on in our. And I'm, I'm totally owning this. I'm, I'm, you know, telling on myself and exposing my, my stupidity, was praying and using prayer as an opportunity for me to still keep sort of lecturing or preaching at my wife. Like, lord, just help my wife to understand. And, you know, I was just like, help her to have a better attitude. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

[Mary Beth Chapman]

And it's like, then those weren't prayers. He prayed to himself.

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

No, these are prayers. She ain't going to interrupt. Can she interrupt a prayer? She, hopefully she, she knows you can't do that, but she, she would, it turns out. But I needed to. But I think, you know what? I. One of the things we even talk about in this book and something that I just feel like I am still learning about, you know, the God's word and scripture is. And this isn't a Christian, you know, thing to say, this is just my experience is that, you know, go figure. The one who I believe, we believe came up with the idea of marriage and relationship in the first place. You know, the one who created it, created us. Not for a relationship with himself and with each other. Actually, it turns out, you know, scripture is so brilliant with the things that it teaches and tells us if we just have eyes to see it, ears to hear, and go look in the mirror with the light in light of scripture. Not, you know, it's not an escapism, but it is, you know, verse after verse, truth after truth of you are, if you're going to love another person, you're going to esteem them more important than yourself. You're going to lay your life down, you're going to die to yourself. You're going to recognize your own need for grace for, you know, for what only God can do through, as we understand it, through Jesus, to keep changing. You keep into that person. You're longing for something. You're made for something that you're never going to get in this world. C.S. lewis, you know, you're going to hear those, you're going to have those longings awakened in something and those echoes. And that's not a bad thing. What you're longing for is what you're made for. Eden, perfect relationship. You're longing for that, but you're not going to get it. This side of heaven that's coming, that's out there. But can you keep trusting, you know, God to Keep changing you and recognizing the longing that you're having. That's going to make you, you know, and there is a real enemy who hates everything that's good and beautiful and reflects the. The goodness of God. So we're going to be battling that. It's just all of those realities. So, you know, the, The It. It. All of it is. Look in the mirror, see the reality of who you really are apart from the grace of God. And then that's going to keep. That's. That. That's where you're going to keep recognizing that there's hope for. Even as broken as it might feel right now, but it's only going to be found there. I think that's been so much the journey for us. And, and the.

[John Deloney]

The lesson for me that has been pretty transformative over the. The last decade of my life has been recognizing that when I would hear the word grace, for whatever reason, and this might be my own interpretation of it, is I would exhale. It would give me permission to just be as I am. And what I took that is be as I am. Like, you're. You're worth being loved. And I took that too far to say, so you don't have to do anything.

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

Yeah.

[John Deloney]

And so it was. Was actually a. A exclamation point was put on it, actually, by a fitness guy who. I've struggled with body image issues since I was a kid. Disorder, eating stuff. And he said, hey, if you go to the gym every day because you think you're gross and you're disgusting and this is what you get. This is your punishment for being unattractive. And you're. You have to go beat yourself up. He said, you'll quit every time. But he said, if you wake up every morning and say, I get an hour to go feel good to take care of myself so that I can love my wife and my kids and my community, well, he goes, you'll do that the rest of your life. And this idea of grace being, no, no, you're worth being loved. So get off your butt and go see a counselor. Go get the medications you need. Go ask for forgiveness. Go do, like, go do these things that I was like, no, I'm just good, right? Put your phone down like these. Like when you said that earlier, the number of times I've told my wife, like, if you don't want me to go on these next five events, just tell me. And she's like, I. So that I can be blamed for that too, financially and emotionally. And you're gonna be Here moping, just sitting in front of tv.

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

Yeah.

[John Deloney]

Right. So like get up and do something about it. And it that action oriented. I guess I just missed it. I'd missed the whole thing that I thought I could think my way into this. And even for folks who are listening who aren't a faith communities, I hear it. I seem to listen to another podcast. I need to read another book. Another book, another podcast and book. I. I feel like we're at a place now where we pretty much have all the information. What we need to do is ask my wife, hey, how can I love you? And go do that? Right. And what do I need to do outside of our bedroom and outside of our home so that I can refill my picture so I can go make sure all my families can. I can write. It's a weird balance, but man, what a mess. So what are some keys y' all have learned? Oh, can we get sideways a bit? This is just coming to me. Kelly always gets nervous when I do this. What's a couple of things over the years y' all have and think of speaking to your younger selves.

[Mary Beth Chapman]

Yeah.

[John Deloney]

You have looked in the mirror and said, I need to like me always wishing Steve or me always wishing Mary Beth would be different. That's not serving us here. I need to do something different. What does that look like in Yalls lives?

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

Let me go first.

[John Deloney]

Yeah, you can go first.

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

Yeah, I've got it. Well, I. It's funny. I think. I don't know if we told the. Told the tattoo story in this or not, but this is a fun one. Again, I think we. I think we. I think we told this in maybe my book and you told your version of it in yours. Because we've both written memoir kind of books before this together, but it was one of the first times. And it continues to be a lesson that I think I continue to learn. But I remember this being sort of one of the first monumental moments of me having to learn and recognize how different we are. Wired and made and embracing that.

[Mary Beth Chapman]

You love it.

[John Deloney]

Can I pause real quick? Can we see something?

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

Yeah.

[John Deloney]

As I asked this. As you're answering this question, Steve's getting tighter and tighter.

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

Yeah. He's just like, yeah, yeah.

[John Deloney]

So good, so good. I don't want anyone to see me.

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

Yes. Yeah.

[John Deloney]

Nobody watches this show.

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

We had been married at this point. I don't know. Maybe we had kiddos because 15 years.

[Mary Beth Chapman]

Something I was in Branson with.

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

Yeah.

[Mary Beth Chapman]

And spying on Will Franklin who was at camp.

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

Yeah, that's right. So yeah, maybe so.

[Mary Beth Chapman]

He'd get so homesick.

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

Yeah, this might have been. I guess it could have been 20 years ago then or something. But we. She got. She had always talked about wanting to get a tattoo and because her dad had one really, you know, on his arm. Just a very kind of typical of his generation, sort of a sunrise and. And he would always say, yeah, I was dumb. I was and foolish and went with a bunch of buddies and, you know, got. Got kind of crazy and. And got tattooed. But she always, as a little girl, just thought this was kind of cool. And it was again, one of the things that attracted me to her when I first met her. I still remember she had on matching denim skirt with a, with a denim jacket kind of rock and roll at that point. She was cool.

[John Deloney]

Had an Indian. Had an Indian.

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

Had these button. Had these. At the time, you'd wear these like, like rock and roll, you know, Ramon's buttons or Kiss. Yeah. Or whatever. And she had, she had these, you know, three or four rock and roll looking kind of buttons on her, on her jacket and kind of biker sort of vibes, you know, and just cool denim and. But they were, it turns out the buttons were these little precious moments for those older generation will know if you love Jesus. Yeah, they're little. They're little. They were little like figurines that you would get at the Hallmark store. Yeah. But they made buttons that said things that had little inspiration. Like one was a little girl nose to nose with a goose and it said, honk if you love Jesus. And it was this little cute, little, big eyed, you know, girl. So there were all these, like, sweet. So I was like, wow, that's even cooler, you know, because she is like a rock and roll. Precious moments. Rock and roller. Yeah. Yeah. So. So, you know, because I'm coming from like, so super straight laced. Yeah. And. And anyway, so we're in, you know, we're, you know, years later, she's always, well, throw out this idea, I want to get a tattoo. And I'd be like, no, why would you ever. Why would you want to do that? And now this was way before tattoos were even cool because now they're like, you know, you're not even taken seriously as a worship leader if you don't have, if you don't have visible tattoos. Like, that guy didn't know Jesus. Was he even, you know, so, so. But this was way before then. Trust me. This was like tattoos were, you know, you know, marking your body is no way, you know, this person. That was before they knew Jesus, clearly.

[John Deloney]

Yeah.

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

Yeah. And it made you, you know, one of those people. Yeah, those people. But she was bound to determine. Anyway, took the kids to camp, my buddy Jeff Moore, and my best friend. You have more in the distance. Yeah, listen to music. Back in those days. And I were on a tour. She was in with Jeff's wife, taking the kids to summer camp. And she calls me and says, hey, Jan. And I went. Drove past. Guess what there is here. I saw a tattoo place. And I'm like. And she said, well, I might have gone in. And I'm like. And, you know, I'm like, the wheels have totally come off. And she finally confides, I might have got. I got this little tiny tattoo on my ankle. And, bro, I mean, I was losing it. Freaked out. Every freak out, because I'm like, number one. Like, why would she do that? Why would she do it knowing that I really was not for this? And so then I spent the whole time getting from where I was, which is way down south in Florida. Jeff and I were on a bus, got back to Nashville and then went to Branson, Missouri, to get to where they were, he and his wife, we were going to spend some time together. And the whole time I'm praying, trying to talk myself. God, I know my wife's different. I need to embrace this. But, man, I'm so. This is just really hard, really a struggle and. And show up at the door, and she's sad and tears in her eyes because she knows that I'm disappointed. And yet I'm trying to embrace it, and I'm trying to get to a place. And that was one really. I remember, very monumental. And the whole thing I. I was wrestling with was, God, you gave me this. Very differently wired. Her experience, everything about this. And how do I love and embrace her and celebrate even that difference in all the right ways? And yet, man, I'm really struggling with this. And so over, I think, the course of our journey in our life, you know, there's. There have continued to be those kinds of things where it's just. I mean, I've written songs about it. Wrote a whole song. How do I. How do I love her? I mean, that whole song. I remember when I wrote that on the All About Love record was just. God, there's a. Here's this woman that is so. She's. She's wired differently. And it. You know, sometimes it's not. I mean, it sounds so silly.

[Mary Beth Chapman]

You're wired differently, like a.

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

Like a. Well, yes, see, that is implied in. She's wired differently than. I am. Not saying you're wired wrongly. I'm the one wired wrong. Okay? We'll just go and say, no, we're both just wired differently the way.

[Mary Beth Chapman]

God, you'll be good to know he has a big fat tattoo now.

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

And then I end up with a tattoo. I got two. Have one right here on my arm. And.

[John Deloney]

And let's say I'll pay for your next one. That'd be good.

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

Oh, yeah, I know. I know who I'm. I know. I'm talking to John tattoo.

[Mary Beth Chapman]

Yeah. It's. When you said unemployable. We always used to. With our boys. It's like, look, go. Just go. You do whatever you know, do you be your best. You whatever you want. But, you know, like, maybe stop. Stop.

[John Deloney]

I've told my kids, wait till you're

[Mary Beth Chapman]

25 so you can, you know, do a. If you ever need to. We always used to say, if you ever need to meet the President of the United States, you can just cover it up. You know, what was it last year? Will Franklin walks in. Big fat monarch, just across, you know, just his hand. I'm like, oh, yeah, it didn't go over so well, but that's okay. It's awesome.

[John Deloney]

Disempowering about. And I guess some couples. I'm. I actually think that's cultural because I think kids now get that. That you are responsible for yourself and your body and your spirit and your whatever. And the challenge I see now is young folks figuring out how to. How do we create this other thing called a marriage together?

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

Yeah. Yep.

[John Deloney]

But I grew up. You grew up. Which in a. In a. It. I don't think it's very healthy, but it's like, no, you're. You do what I say. And then my wife's like, yeah, you do what I say. And there's this competing, like, I don't like it like this. So this is over. I'm like, well, I don't like it like this. This is over. And, yeah, we didn't see any of that. I think either your parents exploded and you saw, I don't want that kind of warfare in my house. Or I think my generation of parents, maybe alls was, take your fights in the back room, y'. All. We don't scare the kids. And so I had no lived model of this thing successfully resolving itself.

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

Yeah.

[John Deloney]

And so we just went to war.

[Mary Beth Chapman]

I think for us, that was one of our early things, you know, for. For you and I. He lived by the motto in scripture, do not let the sun go down on your anger. He came from a home.

[John Deloney]

Go to bed.

[Mary Beth Chapman]

Hey, I just took a 5 milligram Ambien. I'll see you tomorrow.

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

Yeah, yeah.

[John Deloney]

And he's just like, I'm going to the underworld.

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

Yeah.

[Mary Beth Chapman]

I'm going to the.

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

Oh, man, that's.

[Mary Beth Chapman]

Yeah, he would. You know, babe.

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

Yeah.

[Mary Beth Chapman]

We're not gonna figure this out tonight. And I have to work tomorrow. I'm gonna go.

[John Deloney]

That's funny you say that. My wife has a.

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

No.

[John Deloney]

No discussions after 9. Like, it's just over, man.

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

If we get to 9pm let's adopt that one.

[Mary Beth Chapman]

We do that.

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

No, we don't. Because she gets wound up about midnight, and it's like, okay, hey, what about this? And this end? I'm like, oh, no. Nine o'. Clock.

[John Deloney]

Like, no one can bring up a big thing. And unless the fight is make or break it.

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

Yeah, yeah.

[John Deloney]

We'll think after we slept and ate. Yeah, yeah.

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

Oh, that. Yeah. I mean, that whole don't let the sun go down deal. I mean, that got that. That ended up with a hole in the drywall on my side of the bed in our first six months of marriage because she fell asleep in the middle of my best point, and I'm like, you can't. How? You can't. Wait, you can't do that. Like, what do I do with this craziness inside of me to try to fix it? I have to fix it. Fix, fix, fix. You know, it's just been a big part of the journey of our.

[Mary Beth Chapman]

I think, too, for us. We made so many missteps. Number one, I was 19 when I got married. He was 20. Think about that. I'm like, what were our parents thinking? You know, we just got married and didn't really know each other as well as we thought we did. And so it was out of the gate, it was like, oh, this is going to be a long life. And we need to at least begin to try to put some tools in the tool belt. Because, you know, the idea is that we're gonna go the distance, but I don't know how we're going to. Like, it was really, really hard. And then obviously, career, all those pressures take off. Then he became who he became. I'm like, oh, I don't know if I signed up for this, you know, and I can't. I always felt like I couldn't be his bride. I'm like, you know, I'm the one that wanted a tattoo. You know, I'm like, you know, so how do you.

[John Deloney]

Y' all have an outside exposure. Again, outside the bell curve of the normal. But every couple I talk to universally, the one whose wife is an attorney and he has to go to the dinner, and he's like, man, I don't. Like, I'm go. They're gonna look at me. They're gonna like, want to know who you're married to. Y' all are in an outsized. Like, y' all can't have a bad day in public, right? You can't. Or it ends up all over everything and. Or you can't snap at a waiter. You can't have a. Like, how have you managed the glass house of it all? That was, like, three years ago. And again, we're talking. There's obvious levels between what me and my wife experienced, what y' all experienced. But it was three years ago that my wife and I were like, hey, we gotta. We got a new marriage. We gotta recenter this thing. Because everywhere I go, I'm John's wife, and they want to see if I'm laughing at your stuff. If you. If I think you're darling like they do. And the worst for her was this stranger just came up and started talking as though she knows my husband better than I do. And she would get in Ray, like, and rightfully so. Like, she's like, very hard. So how y' all navigated that? Because this isn't just for famous folks. This is for anybody whose spouse. They have to show up for their spouse somewhere and feel like they're on display or have to perform in some way.

[Mary Beth Chapman]

It's tricky. Very tricky one. Well, I don't even know how you do this, but both of us come from very simple families, very simple lives. I'm from Springfield, Ohio. He's from Paducah, Kentucky. And so we're like, how are we gonna do this and be as normal? Like, what's that? Right? What's the definition of normal? As normal as we can be. It's just. I remember taking Emily. She was. When she was in first grade, and it was gonna be our first year at cpa, where they would end up going to school most of. And that would have been in 1991. So right at the, you know, kind of peak. And, you know, he was. He was who he was. And I remember a teacher. No, it was not a teacher. I forget that. It was a. It was a parent reached over. I was meeting people and stuff, and she pinched Emily's cheek, and she was like, what's it like to have a famous dad? And she just had this look on her face like, is he sick? Is he. What's wrong? Like, what's wrong with my dad? Because we've always just, Dad's been Dad. You know, this is what dad does. And, you know, trying to have that normalcy, but it's been very, very difficult. There's been times where I could, you know, I'm not like a horse running to the barn. I can't wait to get to the car so that I can have my implosion or my, you know, sad. Or my, you know. And, you know, you have to find the humor in it as well. Along the ways. You have to do things differently. Like, hey, I can't. I can't do that. I can't. Don't have them ask me to do this. I'm not that person. Don't have them ask me to do that.

[John Deloney]

How have you.

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

That's a good one. Like the first interview you were asked to do before I knew.

[Mary Beth Chapman]

Yeah, they pulled me out of. This is our first of awards. They pulled me out of the audience. Like, I get a tap on my shoulder. And his manager at the time was like, hey, come here, come here. And I'm like, I thought something was wrong. I'm like, I don't know what's going on. They took me out. They're like, hey, this will be great. We're gonna. Poor Sheila. Sheila Walsh was emceeing it. And they're like, stephen has no idea, but we're gonna put you on stage. And then when he's done with his whole set, he comes over and it'll be this interview. But when he turns around, it'll be you and Sheila and him, and you'll talk. I mean, this is like out of the gate. And I'm from a family that sweeps everything under the rug. Like, quiet, quiet, quiet. And I'm like, I hadn't found any voice yet, let alone one in front of a couple thousand people. And so he gets done singing and turns around, and I'm.

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

I start walking to the couch, and I see my wife sitting there. I mean, we don't. We've been married seven, eight years. This was my first record was out, and it was starting to happen. And, you know, and I see her sitting there and I see the panic in her eyes, and I'm immediately.

[Mary Beth Chapman]

It's wild eye.

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

Oh, no. Oh, no. Oh, no. Oh, no. This is bad. Bad, bad, bad, bad.

[Mary Beth Chapman]

And she's like, how did she get there?

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

And so they ask her questions, like, so, Mary Beth, what's like, well, you know. And I just jump in because I'm, like, trying to save her. And I'm trying. And we walk off the stage.

[Mary Beth Chapman]

There was an elevator at tpac. It was at tpac. And we get in the elevator with

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

my manager and the door kind of thought it was great.

[John Deloney]

Oh, this is so cool.

[Mary Beth Chapman]

He's amazing. We love you, Dan.

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

But she likes. As soon as the door's closed and he's looking at me like, what's wrong? And I've gone, don't ever, ever do that again to my wife, because that is not her place. I can do that. You can throw whatever at me. That's my. I've signed up for this. She did not sign up for this. And so there's.

[Mary Beth Chapman]

You know, and I've obviously have come along. I've had to learn.

[John Deloney]

Okay, but how have you navigated? And this is. Yeah, this is very personal. Forget the audience for a second.

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

Yes. Yeah.

[John Deloney]

Very same similar situation with my house. And I. I find many. I don't see any successful couples when. In any business, when the spouse wants to have equal footing on what in their world. Right. Like, yeah. Like, if you're an attorney and your spouse is always throwing. Like, did you. Did you put my thing in the cake? Like, that's always going to be not good.

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

Yeah. Yeah.

[John Deloney]

But the other side of that is I would want nobody. I would trade all of the applause for my wife to think I'm funny.

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

Oh, gosh. Yeah.

[John Deloney]

I would trade all of the applause for my wife to be like, yeah, that's.

[Mary Beth Chapman]

This.

[John Deloney]

That's the smartest psychological insight I've ever heard. And I've had to wrestle with. That woman will storm the gates of hell for me. And she will. She is as ride or die as they come. And she doesn't think I'm funny.

[Mary Beth Chapman]

Yeah. I have a question for you, then. Can I interview you for a second? So what happens when. This is great. This is great. So what happens when you're like, hey, I'm gonna try something out on you, and you tell me what you think? Because I'm. I'm thinking about using this here or here or here. And she looks at you and she says, I don't get it.

[John Deloney]

So, okay, so here's the thing we've. We've had to learn in. In pretty. I. I've had to grieve. And I wish I had a different word for that. I've had to grieve the fact that the thing that I get paid to do is the thing she loves the least about me. Right. Like, that's the thing that she's. She said, I would love you if you're a fireman. And she said, you probably have a better body too.

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

Right.

[John Deloney]

Like, it's like, Like, I would, I would love you if you're a fireman. Right. And so the way I try to impress the world is the thing that's least impressive to her. So. And these are boundaries she drew early on that I fought and that I went and sought elsewhere, which is never good until I had to sit in. If you like. She would say, I don't mind giving you feedback on an idea. What I don't have the capacity for is to manage your ego on the back end of whatever feedback I just gave you. I would prefer if you didn't. Like, I'm, I'm not the right audience for you. And so that's been a hard.

[Mary Beth Chapman]

It's hard, right? There was expectation, I think, put on me early on. He. You'll. We dubbed myself Joe Q. Public because he would bring a song and it would be, hey, what do you think? Play it. And I'm darned if I do and darned if I don't have to navigate it. I have to thread the needle. Right? And it's like, because there is ego. I mean, it's just create. It's like you're saying, here's my baby. Is it cute or is it ugly? You know, I'm not going to tell anybody.

[John Deloney]

You're lying either way. Right? The truth is, shoot.

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

Yeah, shoot, shoot, shoot.

[Mary Beth Chapman]

You know, and, and, and we're different. And so, like, things. I'm gonna like certain things. And then I'm like, gosh, how do I. If I'm on. What if I don't like it? If I just don't like it, Do I just say, I, I love you, but I don't like it? There's an ego that's not stroked. And then he's hurt. And then I'm like, oh, I just can't. It's very, very, very hard.

[John Deloney]

I had an experience. I, I, I didn't run a joke by her, but I said the joke out loud in the car.

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

Her? Yeah.

[John Deloney]

She's like, that's not funny at all. And I was, And I was, I was. My kids were laughing. I was like, that's a funny.

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

Yeah.

[John Deloney]

I tried it on stage and it crushed in. On stage? On stage, in front of her. No, no, she wasn't there.

[Mary Beth Chapman]

You did.

[John Deloney]

But inside, I was like, yeah, I told you, like, I'M totally divorced from what's happening with the audience.

[Mary Beth Chapman]

Right.

[John Deloney]

And I'm just like, God, John 1. I mean, the score is like 9060 to 4. But I was like, yeah, so obnoxious, noxious. So dumb of me.

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

Yes.

[John Deloney]

How have you navigated being a person who thinks outside the box and feels big? And that's what makes your art good? But that makes it hard to be engaged. I mean, hard to be married. Yeah, it just does.

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

Yeah, it does. And. And in the early days, you know, you, you, you. That's where the comparison and the. You know what I mean? She used to love every song I wrote, and everything I did was amazing and funny. We. We joke a lot. In fact, I've got a country song. I haven't. Haven't finished it yet, but there was a point where our son Caleb, we were somewhere and Julia was talking, that's his wife talking about how amazing Caleb is, her husband, our son, he's so amazing. And she said, he's so amazing. And we were, with some of our dear friends are Julia's parents, Mom and dad. They kind of grew up together and then ended up getting married. It was an arranged marriage. It was awesome right now, too. We're very good friends with her parents, Dr. Reggie and Karen Anderson, two of our dear friends. And we were somewhere in Reggie and I looked at each other and said, remember when we were amazing? Remember back when we were amazing? I was like, man, those were good days back when we were amazing.

[John Deloney]

I know.

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

So I've got a country song in the works back when I was amazing. And it's a good one, but because there's part of that thing again, you know, we don't marry. And that's one of the things that we've been talking a lot about. I think even with this book, one of the things you hear couples say and young, you know, couples say, or people who are just, you know, struggling and decide to chuck it is. They're just changed. That's not the same person I married, you know, and it's kind of like, duh.

[John Deloney]

That's the best part.

[Mary Beth Chapman]

That's.

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

That's.

[John Deloney]

To me, it's not the best part of it.

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

Yeah, that's not the person you married because you didn't marry a mom and you didn't marry a, you know, in most cases, anywhere, at least you know, for us. And. And a guy who was trying to navigate a career and provide for his family and take all the, you know, the expectations of the world and be this and not be that and do. And you know, we didn't. That's not who you married. You married a college. In our case, a college student who just thought everything you did and said was the funniest, most amazing thing, you know, up. Up to a certain point and then things start. Start to change. And as far as, you know. Yeah. Navigating that is again, it's one of those longing for what, how it used to feel and what it was and yet also realizing letting that stuff that you talking about earlier, the mirror. That's when the mirror comes up. If you let it, you can either choose contempt and go, why didn't she get it? Or try to convict, try to convince, or go into which I've done all of the above. Try to convince. Well, no, but did you really listen to that and get it. You have to love this because I'm such a people pleaser and you are the number one. You said it. If you love me, you know, everybody else can all. I don't care. Take all the Grammys. Take the rest of it. You know, just let my number one, you know, fan be my number one fan on everything. My. And she is. She is my number. My biggest, you know, biggest fan throughout life, and yet also my toughest critic. And I am the artist and the writer and all the things in part that I am because of that, because she has been honest and hasn't just, oh, everything you do is amazing and wonderful. But then the ego that gets bruised and says, well, wait a minute. What if you don't, you know, you don't love that you don't. Well, you know, and it's that then I think wisdom teaches us, you know, and it's never easy to hold the mirror up again and go, what is this thing that is flaring up in me at that? It's pride. It's, you know, know it's my ego that is demanding. Women, you have to love this. Or is it even okay to go? You know, some of the things she's not going to love and there's going to be a joke that she didn't think was funny, but everybody else is going to really think it's funny and you're going to be able to go,

[John Deloney]

both of those things are okay.

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

Both are okay. She doesn't have to love everything.

[John Deloney]

I came home from my first big comedy show and the room sold out. I thought it went pretty well for the first one.

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

Yeah.

[John Deloney]

And I left the green room early, which is the favorite part of hanging out with comics, is hanging out in the Green room, right. I left early because I was coming on for my second standing ovation. I was gonna walk in that door, and she was gonna be like, dad, I walked in the door, and she looked at me, and I was like. And she said, hey. She looked at her. Watch it. Is there any chance you could take Hank to school in the morning? Like, I've got to get this, and I gotta get her daughter over here. And I went, yeah, I can take him. She's like, oh, thank you. She came, give me a hug, give me a kiss, and said, I'm gonna go to bed. And to say I was deflated was the mo. Like. And then I went to really, like. I mean, I went through the whole thing.

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

Yeah.

[John Deloney]

And only because I've been working hard for a long years. I waited a day, and then I approached myself. I looked in the mirror and said, hey, what is it? Why did that make you so frustrated?

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

Yeah.

[John Deloney]

And then I was able to. What you mentioned, like, sit down and use invitation language. Like, hey, here's a story I made up that you weren't that impressed. Whatever. What I come to find out, her story was. And it was such a powerful thing, was the last month has been about me celebrating you. I took all you. You were in your head right in the set. You've been going every night of the week down there to try to get time on stage. You've been. And I covered all of that. And I. I hate being in at comedy shows because everyone wants to see if I'm laughing, and they want to see if how I'm right. And I came, and she's like. And I was like, oh, you celebrated me for a month straight, right? And then you were able to exhale when this thing was over. And then I had to do this. That what I think has become the hardest but the easiest thing. And I want. I'm interested to know how y' all do this. I had to say, okay, can I tell you a way you could love me? And it's silly. And she goes, any. I would take any of that. If I walk in after I just went and did a speaking event or sit show, would you just ask me one question? Like, what was. What was your favorite joke you told? Or what was your favorite Whatever? And I said, if you'll just do that. And then I tell her, and now it's kind of become a joke. She's like, what was the favorite one? And I'm like, it was it, But I'm just waiting. But it's a way I Gave her a clear roadmap. Here's how you can love me.

[Mary Beth Chapman]

I think we need to remain curious, right? We have to be curious with each other instead of judgmental. And. And what does that look like?

[John Deloney]

I hear that thrown around. What does that look like? Practically for a month.

[Mary Beth Chapman]

I don't mean this in a negative way, but we can be over it, right? To your wife's point, she celebrated you for a month while you were freaking getting ready to do that. Right. Okay. I carry these tours. I'm at home. I'm in the same four walls. I see all the things at home that either are not going well or aren't getting done or whatever. And I'm like. And yet, at the same time, his world is a different city every night. He's trying to do this, you know, the revival of the Speechless tour. And, you know, so how can I be curious? Well, I don't. I'm not very curious. At midnight when he's finally able to, you know, get to a car, the show was off. And at the same time, he also has come full circle to go. I've noticed that a lot of times now. I'm getting that bedtime call at intermission.

[John Deloney]

Yeah.

[Mary Beth Chapman]

Because he knows I might just be asleep at midnight when he's, like, revved up because, you know, his adrenaline's going and all that. But I have to be curious, Right? It's like, you know, did you get to see some show? Hope Families was there a lot there. You know, it was fun, you know, whatever. And then the goofy stories of, you know, people dancing to Cinderella or I will be here. All the things, you know, just still being curious and being curious about other things that he's interested in, not just, you know, career. Although that tends to be a lot of what we talk about. He's very curious. He tries to be very curious with me. Me. Which is cute. Yeah.

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

But we're learning the long text messages, and I get back, smiley face.

[Mary Beth Chapman]

That's the other thing he thinks emotional texts are for. Yeah, it's like. Yeah, it's like, I just told you.

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

This is to Shakespeare.

[Mary Beth Chapman]

Thumbs up, Thumbs up.

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

Really? That's all I get?

[Mary Beth Chapman]

Are you mad at me? Oh, and then here we go. I'm not mad at you. It's texting. It's supposed to be one symbol. It should communicate everything. I've got to get going. And, yeah, he's very loquacious. I love that word. Very period deficient and loquacious. He's been described that before.

[John Deloney]

Shout out, Steve.

[Mary Beth Chapman]

Yeah, shout Out. But I think another thing that's been important for us because we have had so many missteps. And really, honestly, the hope for this book is just that people go. They're actually real. You know, they're just, you know, people who, you know, it really is two sinners trying to figure out, how do you stay married, be married? And I think our children. It was really important that our children read this and read it for the honesty that is in it is. I think it's been important for us as we've journeyed in this marriage is to. We've made so many missteps as to how do we repair that well, in front of our children and. And asking for that forgiveness and saying, okay, mom and dad. Okay, we really blew that. And, you know, having them at least model the repair, what it's like to step into a humble, humble moment of needing to ask each other for forgiveness. And so our son has dubbed us the Hobblers. He said that we hobble well, that we haven't done it perfectly, but that we hobble well.

[John Deloney]

That's. I like the Hobblers.

[Mary Beth Chapman]

Yeah.

[John Deloney]

Or the Hobblers.

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

Yeah.

[John Deloney]

So y' all had. So my. My. Most of my career has been sitting with people and the wheels have fallen off, like when whatever's going on in their life. Right. And then there was a season when I would do my work during the day at the university, and then I would show up for the police department and I would. They. I was called a. Like a crisis intervention guy. So if something happened, police are trained to show up to a scene and work at Crimeback. Right. And my job was to come in and sit with whatever just happened. Right. And that got me really interested in showing up to scene after scene after scene, home after home, on any number of things, and watching instantly, two people, four people in a family unit, extended family, everybody's bodies taking over and handling that differently. Right. And one person wants to know all the details, all the facts, all the whatever. Another person is just walking down the road and another person is screaming and like, it's. It's. But everybody's like, literally your body takes over and handles it differently.

[Mary Beth Chapman]

Right, Right, right.

[John Deloney]

And so that got me interested in just in the. Therapeutically, like, right. What happens?

[Mary Beth Chapman]

Right?

[John Deloney]

Y' all went through a very public loss, right? A very public loss.

[Mary Beth Chapman]

Yep.

[John Deloney]

Which I can't imagine the nightmare layer on top of the worst pit of hell a parent can experience. And then you gotta do in front of everybody, everybody wants to know about it, which sounds like Nightmare on top of nightmare.

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

Right.

[John Deloney]

But if I, if I'm honest and I look at the data, the loss of a child almost always. Not always often breaks up marriages. Right. And the best I can distill that down is people grieve differently and they grieve at different paces and in different ways. Walk through the navigating that.

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

Yeah, for sure. I mean, that's. That is all. All of the things that we. We knew. I mean, we were told immediately was

[Mary Beth Chapman]

quick to tell us day one pastor

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

friend that we were going to have

[Mary Beth Chapman]

a journey in front of us said,

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

you know, most 90% of marriages, or I'm sure it's a, you know, you can read different numbers, but it's way up there of marriages don't survive the loss of a child. And what's crazy is at the moment, you know, I remember both of us thinking. I know for sure. I was thinking it like, you know, I know that's true. I hear that. But we've already been through so much. We've walked through so much. This is obviously dwarfs everything else, but it's not like we're. It's not like we've been just skipping along through life. We've. We know every. Even before that, we knew every counselor in Nashville and built wings on their, you know, with what we had invested in trying to. Just trying to keep this ship afloat and keep us moving together, loving each other. Never a question. I love this woman. I just, you know, how are we going to survive each other? How are we going to survive this? All this that's, you know, getting poured on top of us. But so I think in. In immediately it was like, I understand. I hear all that yes and nodding going. I know it's going to be hard, but I right now can't imagine anybody on the planet. I've never needed, you know, more for us to just hold on to each other. And I think we both felt that way. But, you know, it is.

[Mary Beth Chapman]

Time goes on.

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

It is a. It's exactly what you said. The grieving process is so different for every person. It's part of the reason why I'm, you know, I'm. My wife. Laughs I'm a skeptic of most of the, you know, put you in a box. You're a 1, 2, 3, you know, otter, beaver, you know, whatever, you know, lion, pony. Love me like a pony.

[Mary Beth Chapman]

He says, I go to 11.

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Are you a wing four or three? I'm. I'll just go to 11.

[John Deloney]

That's it.

[Mary Beth Chapman]

I can't figure it out.

[John Deloney]

I'm with you.

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

But. But. And I know there's good in. In that, but the realities were so much more complex and complicated. And every time I try to do that stuff, I'm like, well, I'm that today. But depending on what's happening around me, I'm that. And I think that way, and I think that way, and I think, you know, grief is. Exposes all of that at a. Just on steroids of how complex we are. And what do we do with. You know, with the rage and the anger, because death and especially the death of a child. Even as believers in this is not the end of the story. Believers in one who has conquered death and the grave and all of those things that anchor our hearts down. The hope that we have. You know what you know, but you feel what you feel.

[John Deloney]

I found to be more angry.

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

Yeah.

[Mary Beth Chapman]

Oh.

[John Deloney]

Because.

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

Hey.

[Mary Beth Chapman]

Yeah. Hey.

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

Yeah.

[John Deloney]

I didn't drink and smoke.

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

Yeah.

[John Deloney]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

You broke the.

[John Deloney]

You broke our contract.

[Mary Beth Chapman]

That was me. That was me. I. I was. Wait.

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

Yeah.

[Mary Beth Chapman]

We did everything you asked.

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

It.

[Mary Beth Chapman]

It feels like we have done everything you asked us to do. When we stepped into the world of adoption, we step not only for ourselves, but for a lot of people.

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

Yeah.

[Mary Beth Chapman]

You know, in his ministry. And that was me. That was my. I was very, very mad for a long, long time. Very. And I still can get mad when I think about it, but I. You know, I think for a mom, we do very, very grieving very differently. Grieving very publicly. I immediately had a child that was not gonna lose. Extremely worried about. And your other children. Right. And so it was a fatal blow. We feel like from the enemy to go. We don't. I don't like what this family's about. I don't like what this family's doing, and I'm just gonna try to take him out. That's how I kind of viewed it. And I was mad at God because he didn't protect us. Like, could have stopped it. You could have just. This could have not happened. And the wise and the. The blame, the. All of it, like, you name it, it happened.

[John Deloney]

And did y' all experience the. I can't believe you're not over it yet. I can't believe. Let's go to dinner. How can you possibly go to dinner?

[Mary Beth Chapman]

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. All of it. I don't know that we ever. I don't know that we ever were able to say, can't believe you're not over it yet. Because we're not over it.

[John Deloney]

You know, you don't ever get over it, but it's like, you know, it's

[Mary Beth Chapman]

just like, I can't.

[John Deloney]

We've got to move forward.

[Mary Beth Chapman]

And I think as a mother.

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

Yeah, I can't believe you're laughing.

[Mary Beth Chapman]

You know, I'm in full.

[John Deloney]

I can't believe that's funny, right?

[Mary Beth Chapman]

And as a mom, I'm in full triage mode. I'm putting my needs aside. I didn't even thinking about me. It's like, I gotta pick shrapnel out of five children. And who needs the most triage first? Like, okay, we gotta. And you're immediately meeting a bunch of people you never wanted to meet. And then they become your closest people because they're helping with the counseling of the littles and the two and three times a week. And, you know, your whole world shifts because we're trying to survive. And, you know, again, then we're trying to. Pretty quickly, we tried to huddle together as a family and say, hey, we're gonna make these decisions together as far as what we do and don't talk about, you know, who we do and don't talk to, you know, but it can only be managed to a point. You know, it was chaos. And so you don't think about each other for a while because we're parents. It's like, we're right here, and then all of a sudden, and we're looking at each other, and you grieve differently than I grieve. And then he'd have a good day. And I'd be like, I don't know how you can have a good day. I'm having a terrible day. And he, you know, it was just. It's messed up. And, you know, you obviously just do the best you can. I mean, other than, you know, I feel like the Lord gave us some really beautiful pictures of what it's like to love fiercely your family and protect your family, and gave us glimpses of knowing how real it is when you lose at that level. You taste. You really do taste and see that the Lord is good in a really weird way, because there's just been this devastating loss. But then you see very clearly for a while, it's like somebody just takes all the filters off. And so there were pieces and times of that journey that it was. But then you felt guilty about that, too, because it's like, I'm feeling guilty about it. I feel like this is guilt. But it's at the cost of a horrible thing and all the things. So it is. I tell People all the time. I went on a free fall of faith. I was like, I was just falling through the air and that I eventually landed on the firm foundation that is Jesus. You know, I face planted and on any given day I still feel like I'm. Yeah. Fallen a little bit. But it was really, really hard to navigate. And he did beautiful leading our family. But it wasn't for the faint of heart. It still isn't at. At times.

[John Deloney]

Dad's dads are not great. How have you navigated that? And I say not great. Dads are awesome. I mean, in those situations because it's easy to say I'm just gonna pick it all up and carry it, but I'm not gonna feel any of this.

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

Yeah.

[John Deloney]

And it comes out in weird, absolutist, angry. Weird or detached. Like, how have you navigated that?

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

Well, I will. I mean, there's so many ways to try to answer that and you know, do we have like another four hours and you know, and let's, you know, let's take it. We need something. Yeah. More than water here. But, but I mean, the first things that come to mind, the psalms became so much more real to me. And I mean, this is not. I know again referencing what you said earlier. I know you speak and have the platform in a wonderful way to speak into people that are not necessarily of a faith community or, you know, but I only have one way to answer that because I wouldn't be sitting here having this conversation. We wouldn't be married alive. Probably because there were a lot of prayers. I mean, honestly, for this first time, you know, that I pray God, you know, I got through today, but please don't ask me to do another day. I just cannot wake up tomorrow.

[John Deloney]

Can we normal that for a second?

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

Yeah.

[John Deloney]

It's the most common thing I hear is I just need to go hug my kid.

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

Yeah.

[John Deloney]

And I'm out.

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

I just want to be done.

[John Deloney]

Please, please help me not wake up tomorrow.

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

Yes.

[John Deloney]

People of faith and not faith.

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

Yeah.

[John Deloney]

Don't be here tomorrow.

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

Right. Yeah. And never making plans to take that in my own hands, but just God begging God to let me not have to endure this pain. I don't know how to do it. I don't know how to navigate it. I don't know how to love my wife. And I see her hurting and I want to respond right. And I'm the closest person in. So that's where all the anger is going to come and all the hurt. And I don't want to hurt anymore. And I don't want to hurt her. I don't want to, you know, respond wrongly and all of that stuff. And. And the one thing. And it was right, actually, you know, I tell this story, but from the very beginning, when we found out that, you know, Maria, our daughter, had not survived the accident that took her life, it was that feeling of just like, I don't know how I'm going to keep breathing. I don't know how I'm going to lead my family. All the weight of that, and how do I, you know, how do I. How do I do this? How do I keep myself moving forward? And how do I lead a family and just hold on to anything that. That will anchor us down? Because I'm just feeling like these waves are just washing over me and my family around me. And. And it was. I use this kind of word, black hole. Of just feeling like I'm sucked into a black hole. And once I go into it, I'm not coming out. And. And I would take a breath and just this. The thought that you. That came to my mind was, blessed be the name of the Lord. You give and you take away. I am going to choose with whatever breath I have, and I hope it's my last. But I'm going to go out saying, God, I have to worship you. I have to trust you. Otherwise I'm going into this black hole of despair and hopelessness and I'm gone. And so I would take a breath, and when I would take that breath in and then exhale, God, I trust you. I don't get you. I don't like you. I'm mad. But I'm going to trust you and I'm going to worship you. I would find that the next breath in was I had a little bit more oxygen and I could. And it was like the clarity for just a minute would sort of. The cloud would sort of clear just enough to go, wait a minute. That feels like. Like I'm. I might be able to survive. But then the dark kind of comes back in. And you start. Then I. I say it again, and I say it again. And that became. I started to read, you know, go. Go to the Psalms. And I started to find all these places where, you know, this amazing verses that so many songs are written about and worship songs that we sing in church that are. Skip over better. Better is your, you know, better is one day in your courts and a thousand and elsewhere and your love is better than life. And all these things I always felt like, why am I not getting at God? Because everybody Else is so much more engaged with these psalms. And I believe them, and it's true. But suddenly I was like, wait a minute. That very chapter starts with, how long, oh, Lord, are you going to forget me forever? I'm down, I'm done for. This is the last. I'm done. But then if you read long enough, I start seeing. So why are you so downcast in me? Hope in God, like talking, you know, the psalmist talking himself almost into. I have to keep remembering where my hope comes from, and I gotta keep going back to that. Otherwise I am, you know, going down for the last time. And so that was that. That journey and that process for us was. I felt like that was the. Like, three steps forward, two steps back, sometimes 20 steps back. But it was just continuing to anchor to that hope that God, you. Everything we feel right now. And that was the hardest thing for me, just letting her and being safe enough in that truth that I can let her go wherever the emotions are going to take her and not feel like, oh, I got to fix it. I got to fix this. She's feeling hopeless. She's feeling. It's like, God, you're. You're going to take her on her own journey. But what I can do, the most loving thing I can do, is just keep running back to what is the only thing that will sustain my heart through this. So that there is. And if I can hold onto that anchor as a father, as a husband, then they will be able to hold onto that anchor as well, maybe even through me. It's going to be their own journey. But. But I want to be that anchor and trust in you and running back to this because that's the only hope that we have.

[John Deloney]

Thank you all for hanging.

[Stephen Curtis Chapman]

Yeah, thanks, brother.