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A
I'm Jane Marie and this is the Dream. Last week we welcomed my friend W. Kamau Bell on the program to discuss, well, like how racist everyone is acting right now. For example, ICE raids, which maybe feel more important to me than you if you don't live in Los Angeles, but it's really in our faces here. Or the war in Gaza, or the removal of museum exhibits that talk about slavery. Or how Stephen Miller, adviser to Donald Trump, gave a eulogy at Charlie Kirk's funeral, which was a rip off of a speech by famous Nazi Joseph Goebbels. Is everything racism? That's a question I've been thinking about a lot and I put out a call for folks of color who might want to discuss this with me. Today. We welcome another guest who heard the call and said, hell, yeah. So why did you respond to my online call for people?
- [03:30]
B
I responded to it because, one, I love conversation, and I think it's important to talk to people regardless of what their beliefs. I'm very much a let's have a conversation. Let's talk. See if we align on things. If we disagree, let's hear each other's perspectives. So when you just put out an online call, I was like, sure, I love talking. I used to have a podcast. The logline was everything begins with the conversation. And that's really what my motto is. And it's what the tagline for my substack is as well. So anytime I see someone that's looking for a podcast guest or just wants to have conversation about anything, I'm always open to that.
- [04:06]
A
Well, I really appreciate you getting back to me about that because I was anxious about even putting the question out there because it seems like a no doi Kind of.
- [04:15]
B
Yeah.
- [04:16]
A
Kind of question, But I was just finding myself getting really frustrated.
- [04:19]
B
Sure.
- [04:20]
A
Okay, let's start with, will you give me your name and a little bit about you?
- [04:24]
B
Sure. My name is Melinda Hale. I am an actress and a singer by nature. That's what I've done my whole life. But I've been very involved in activism in the last 10 years. And I'm currently the executive director of a nonprofit called the New Evangelicals. And we are progressive Christians that are trying to reclaim our faith and fight back against all the Christian nationalism that is plaguing the country right now. I'm a writer, I'm a mom, creative producer. I'm definitely a multi hyphenate person, but I'm involved in a lot of things. But it always comes back to what my values are and everything that I involve myself in, whether it's artistically, politically, or just conversationally. It's about just trying to make the world a better place.
- [05:09]
A
You said coming back to your values and morals. How were you raised?
- [05:15]
B
Yeah, so I was raised in Santa Barbara, California. Two very loving parents, still married. They're gonna be celebrating their 44th anniversary coming up, which is incredible. Wow. I know. Wild.
- [05:30]
A
Good for them.
- [05:31]
B
They're the best. They're the best. You know, my mom specifically was very much a person of faith, I will say. And so we were raised in the church, very progressive church, very liberal, very accepting. And I was really just ra to treat people with respect and have empathy and learn about people's stories. I was exposed to diversity always. My parents never allowed anything to be off the table when it came to questions or critical thinking or wondering about anything. So I feel very blessed that I grew up in the household that I did because it really shaped who I am now and has really informed everything that I do in my life, from performing to activism.
- [06:19]
A
The reason I asked for people to come on the show and talk about racism, I've been feeling like things have gotten really egregious lately with our president trying to reframe slavery, with various states and municipalities changing the way American history is taught to our kids. All of this happening, like this year, right? Lots of talk about both sides in slavery. And then, you know, like last week, Hurricane Katrina, I didn't feel like got enough coverage. There's just been, like, a bunch of things where I just had this icky feeling of like, oh, we just backslid many, many decades with this person in charge or whatever. I don't know if it's all his fault, but it feels very regressive and icky and like we've lost the plot. What are your feelings around that? Am I off?
- [07:19]
B
You're not off base at all.
- [07:20]
A
Okay.
- [07:21]
B
And I think it's by design. And I think, unfortunately, the mindset of this current administration and a lot of people that follow it is if you ignore something, it will go away when really you have to address things head on in order to make progress. Which is why that's the difference between progressives and conservatives. Progressive want to make progress, conservatives want to conserve. And what they're trying to conserve is this, honestly, this white Christian nationalist ideology and framework that serves that population specifically and ignores anything that happened in the past, but also ignores having to address it. And here's the thing. If you feel guilt and shame about something, then you probably know that it was wrong. Right? And so I think when it comes to things like, you know, erasing slavery, changing museum exhibits, you know, taking things out of textbooks, it's like, what? What is the benefit of that? Like, why are we doing that? And it's because they don't want to be tied to the negativity of the past. But again, as speaking as a black woman who is in this space, a lot of. There's not a single person alive that blames current people for anything that happened in the past. That's not at all what we're saying. We are simply saying that you benefit from it. So let's try to level the playing field and make sure that everybody is getting equal access. I mean, when we want to talk about the black community specifically, the reason that they are still behind economically and socioeconomically is because when you look back, one, we were banned from education. Two, we were banned from owning houses. Three, we were banned from having any form of generational wealth. And when we did have our own infrastructure and our own towns, they were burned down by white supremacists. So we've always.
- [09:12]
A
Or stolen.
- [09:13]
B
Or stolen. Right. So if you're not willing to acknowledge that aspect of history, but then you want to act like we're the reason why we're behind, then you're being very disingenuous about it. So we're trying to figure out how we can get equity, how we can get equality so that everybody's on a level playing field. And if this is something that you say that you believe in, which your actions aren't showing that, then you should be doing all of the work to make sure that everybody has the same opportunity and the same resources and the same footing to get ahead.
- [09:44]
A
Well, talk to me about the Christian right and white nationalism. Yeah, just describe to our listeners how
- [09:50]
B
you view that for sure. So, I mean, Christian nationalism, people have been sounding the alarm on it for years, and I don't think that it has been taken as seriously as it should should be taken, because the Christian right has always been trying to infiltrate into policy because they believe that their beliefs are the things that should be driving America. First and foremost, America is not a Christian nation. The entire premise that America was built upon, even with the Founding Fathers, though I disagree with a lot of things that they thought, obviously, for my community, they were enslavers and they had us written as three fifths of a human being. Right. But one of the. When it comes to religion is that everyone had. It was freedom of religion. Everybody had the opportunity to believe in and express and practice whatever religion and faith that you fall into. But Christian nationalists don't agree with that. They think that Christianity, their version of Christianity, is what should be making the laws, what should be in the schools, what should be taught to everybody. And so when they talk about religious freedom, they're really just talking about freedom for their religion. Nobody else. Right. So it's unfortunate because I make these jokes a lot. But, you know, if you watch the Handmaid's Tale, that is really kind of the ideology that they believe in. They believe that women are only supposed to create babies and be in the home and that men are the ones that are supposed to lead and are the ones that are supposed to work. They don't believe that women should be preaching from the pulpit, that they shouldn't be, you know, pastors, they shouldn't work at all. They shouldn't even have the right to vote. Some of them think because they're basing their current 2025 ideology off an ancient book that has been found to be rewritten millions of times and is mostly man made to be able to serve for their own self interest. Right. I believe that they're also picking the
- [11:40]
A
wrong part of the book.
- [11:43]
B
That's the other part is like if you're going to claim to be a Christian. And that's the thing I said, I said, look, if you are going to try to govern from your beliefs, why are you not governing from the good parts? Why are you not feeding the homeless and feeding the hungry and helping with health care and making sure children are safe? Like these are all things that Jesus actually taught about and they're none of the things that are in the policies that Republicans are passing.
- [12:10]
A
I thought he was supposed to be changing the world and making it a
- [12:12]
B
better place 100%, which is why Jesus is a progressive, because he wanted to progress. When he was was preaching, he wasn't just saying the words, he was also doing it. He was healing the sick, he was spending time with the marginalized. He was advocating for other people. And that's nothing that the far.
- [12:32]
A
He was spending like quality time with people that folks these days, the white Christian nationalists are actually like going to court to make sure they lose rights and are imprisoned, et cetera. I mean he spent a lot of
- [12:49]
B
time, I mean, I think that they would try to deport Jesus at this point. I really do. If he came back, I think that they would deport him because they just don't align with anything that he is about. Jesus was about who he's for, not who he's against. And I think that that's specifically what the far right is doing. It's all about who they're against and not about who they're for. And that's the complete antithesis of what being a Christian is supposed to be.
- [13:14]
A
So how do you frame it in your organization? How do you frame the fight that you have going on here with those kind of ideologies?
- [13:23]
B
Yeah, so the new evangelicals, we really exist to empower people to reject Christian nationalism, but also to show them a better way forward in terms of their faith. So even if you aren't a person of faith, there is a place for you at tne because we're empowering people to show up for one another. We're trying to offer, you know, beyond our Media content. You know, we have podcasts, we have shows, we do a lot of social media content calling out Christian nationalism, but then challenging a lot of the rhetoric. We offer educational tools. We have an online platform called TNE Connect where we offer Theology 101 classes so you can relearn the Bible the correct way. We have book clubs, we have community spaces for people that left their church, that want to just still be involved in community but feel excommunicated from those old church evangelical spaces. And we have a lot of advocacy opportunities as well. You know, we, we are starting a new leg of the organization called TNA Action, where we're going to equip people with different petitions, with different call to actions and ways to put your faith into, into action. Because that's exactly what Jesus was. He was about the work and not just the words. So that is really what our organization is trying to be. And we just kind of, we envision a world where Christianity isn't used as a weapon to hur people, but it's shown as just a way of life that is led with love.
- [14:43]
A
Can we give some examples of how it is used as a weapon?
- [14:46]
B
Absolutely. I mean, I think one of the most specific examples is with the LGBTQ community and specifically right now, like taking trans rights away and them trying to use Bible verses to, you know, affirm their positions. You know, Jesus never said anything about homosexuality. The word homosexual wasn't even put in the Bible into the year 1940, which shows that it was a man written prejudice and bias that was put in. So in a lot of the legislation, they're trying to use Bible verses to dictate how other people are living. I think also with this administration creating an anti Christian task force that is only meant to protect people from anti Christian bias, which really nobody is anti Christian or anti far right Christian because it's, it's not what being a Christian is.
- [15:36]
A
But having a reasonable conversation about that is like. So, yeah, I mean, it's difficult. Well, it's difficult because in Rome at the time of Jesus, people were plenty trans and gay. And you'd think there would be like a lot of writing about that if somebody had a problem with it then. And there just isn't sure.
- [15:57]
B
And I think also what people fail to realize is that we have language for things now that we didn't have back then. And that's what progression is. Right. So when it comes to identity, when it comes to race, understanding race, when it's coming to understanding status, whatever the case may be, you know, there may not have been proper language to describe it back then, but we have that now. So it's interesting because I do this is going to come as a shock to a lot of people. I do watch Fox News a lot because I think it's important to see what the other side is saying so you can understand. Because I don't think you can properly refute things if you don't know exactly what's being said. But if I were in the middle of America and only watched Fox Fox News, I would probably think that every single human being I came across was trans, because that's how they are talking about it ad nauseam. You would think that that is an issue. But here's the thing. Trans people have always existed. We just didn't necessarily have the language for it. And now because we have the language and because people are more accepting of it, they're making it seem like it's this big deal and it came out of nowhere. Same with autism, right? Autism has been around for forever. We now have the language to understand neurodivergence. We have the language to understand different diagnose. So people are thinking that this is coming out of the woodwork and all of a sudden and people are blaming things like vaccines. And it's not that, it's that we have the language and the knowledge to now understand and accept and be empathetic towards different identities and different, just different ways of life.
- [17:28]
A
I feel like as so long as we still can't get that right on race, we're going to have a hard time with any of these other issues. You know, if you can't convince a Christian that there's active racism happening, how do those conversations go? When people argue against affirmative action, for example, or dei, which is different than affirmative action, but when they argue against that, I'm thinking like this is feeling very much like whatever happened in the 60s and 70s wasn't really what was intended according to these folks. You know, I don't know, I just get really frustrated because even using logic in those arguments doesn't work.
- [18:07]
B
It doesn't. And I understand your frustration because people don't want to have to reconcile with the history of this country, but also maybe how they benefit from the history of this country. And again, I think that that's where that guilt and that shame come in. But it's a conversation that you needs to be had. And I think that there's no shame in acknowledging like this is where our country was, but this is what we don't want to be anymore. And let's work towards that. But instead they're just trying to erase it and act like it never happened. Which that's never. That's never a a good tactic to take in any situation honestly.
- [18:48]
A
We'll be right back with more of my discussion with Melinda Hal. The US Surgeon General says kids who spend more than three hours a day online are twice as likely to struggle with depression and anxiety. And nearly half of girls and about a third of boys say social media causes overwhelming stress. Researchers have even found that teens who spend more than five hours a day on their phones are at double the risk for suicidal thoughts. I want to avoid all that stuff with my kid. Good news, there's a better option. A company called Gab is tackling this with something they call tech in steps. Instead of handing a kid a full on adult smartphone right away, Gab offers safer phones and watches designed specifically for kids with no social media. Younger kids can start with GPS enabled watches so parents know where they are and as they grow they can move to phones with parent enabled apps. It's technology that grows with them while helping protect their mental health. The bottom line? Your child doesn't need a device built for adults. I absolutely love our Gab phone for my 12 year old. I can see where she is. She can call me. Others can call her if I approve them. Anytime she gets a text message that has a bad word in it, I see it. I don't have to monitor everything she says. But when she's texting with someone and they say shut up, shut up, shut up, shut up, shut up jerk. I see that Gab keeps kids connected. Without social media, I can't recommend Gab enough. If you're looking for a phone that makes parenting easier and gives you a little more peace of mind, check them out. Visit gab.comdream and use code dream for an exclusive offer. That's Gab G A B B no matter where you live, sun exposure is unavoidable and with so much information out there, it can be hard to know the best way to protect your skin. Blue Lizard is here to make it easy with just a few simple steps and many great products to help you and your family stay protected in the sun. They're even a good choice for those with sensitive skin. The coolest thing Blue Lizard caps turn blue when harmful UV rays are present. That is so helpful when I'm juggling kids and the fact that they make a spray version and a stick that my daughter can carry around in her backpack so she's never unprotected is awesome and they dry clear help keep your sensitive skin safe from the sun's harmful rays. Blue Lizard's Sensitive Mineral on the Go Sunscreen couldn't be easier. Go to bluelizardsunscreen.com to find out more information, which sunscreens are right for your family and where you can buy in store. Or visit the Blue Lizard Australian Sunscreen Stor on Amazon. I was moving recently and had to do all that moving stuff. Ordering boxes, some new household items, you know, trash bags, toiletries, a pair of shoes. And it can get overwhelming having to input your credit card information over and over and passwords and all that. Especially when you're already stressed out. That's when you see it. That purple pay button that has all of your information saved, making checking out as simple as a simple tap of your screen. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and 10% of all e commerce in the US from household names like Magic Spoon and Allbirds to brands just getting started and that iconic purple Shoppay button that's used by millions of businesses around the world. It's why Shopify has the best converting checkout on the planet. It also helps boost conversions, meaning less carts going abandoned and more sales for you. It's time to turn those what ifs into Cha Ching with Shopify today. Sign up for your $1 per month trial today at shopify.com dream. Go to shopify.com dream that's shopify.com dream.
- [22:43]
C
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- [23:35]
A
best arguments you've gotten in with these these people on the Christian right? By best I mean worst and also best both. Have you ever changed anyone's mind?
- [23:48]
B
Yes, I have. I had a conversation about the whole defund police movement and I said to somebody, I said, okay, I said, let me just explain this to you. I said, if you know that someone, for example, is neurodivergent or autistic and they're having an episode. Do you think it would be better to send a licensed worker that has dealt with people that are autistic or have some sort of neurodivergent? Or do you think it'd be better to send a cop? And they said, oh, well, the licensed person. I said, that's what defund the police is about. And they were blown away because they thought it was literally just taking money away from the police department. I said, no, it's reallocating funds. But that doesn't have a catchy slogan like reallocating funds. That doesn't sound. That doesn't, you know, stick the same as defund the police. And so when I explained to them, I was like, you know, and I agree. I was like, it's just bad branding and bad marketing. But all we're asking is for there to be funding put into putting medical professionals and therapists and, you know, licensed social workers or whatever to go. Also be a part of situations where they're the experts and not always bringing the force of the police department to deal with that.
- [25:00]
A
But don't you feel like that's a little bit of intellectual laziness on their part? And then that's what we're heading toward now is like more and more and more intellectual laziness is like becoming cool.
- [25:10]
B
Hands down. Hands down. I don't disagree with that at all. And I always tell people, just read. You have. We have access to all the same information, and it's very interesting who chooses to utilize that and who doesn't. So it is intellectual laziness. And I do end up doing a little bit more labor and more work than I want to, because that's just what happens. But again, I am willing to educate and I'm willing to have a conversation, especially if I do think that they're asking in good faith. Because I will say, with there being access to so much information, it also is hard to know what is the truth. And so I do have a little bit of grace and understanding for that, because there is so much out there, and there could be a lot of lies and misinformation. And so I do want to make sure people are equipped with the right things. And I do feel like I spend some time making sure that the knowledge that I have is accurate and fair. So, yes, I think it's a combo of not knowing where to look, but also not even looking in the first place.
- [26:10]
A
But we're taking the things to look at away right now. Yes, with the museums and with taking any black history or most of American history, like, the big parts out of museums and textbooks. And so then who do you turn to, like, keeping the information, you know, like, do they have to go to the Wayback Machine online or something? Like, where. Where will kids in Florida learn that slavery was bad?
- [26:39]
B
Yeah, that. And that's the thing. This is important information that we. We need access to. And unfortunately, yeah, like you said, where work is in Florida, but honestly, I feel like, like, kids are going to be curious to find out the truth on their own because they're being kept from it. It's kind of that, like, sparking the curiosity, that forbidden fruit type situation. Because, you know, when you tell kids, don't touch that, what's the first thing that they do? Yeah, they want to go touch it. Right. So I'm hoping that hearing all of this conversation about things being banned and. And not being able to access them will, you know, embolden them to want to figure out, well, why is this being banned? Why is this being taken away? Why can't I read this? I want to go find out for myself. So that's what I'm kind of hoping. It's going to have a reverse effect, that the people taking things away are being in the situation that we are, seeing how they're trying to rewrite history, seeing how they're treating the immigrant population, you know, seeing all of the racism and. And the antisemitism and the sexism and the homophobia. Just everything's coming up to the surface again. And so I just want people to use their platforms in whatever way they see fit to just speak out.
- [27:56]
A
How do you communicate to people? Like, maybe before they get involved with the Christian nationalism pipeline?
- [28:04]
B
I mean, honestly, there's just certain accounts that I would suggest you follow. You know, Monty Mader is a really great follow because she talks about how she left Christian nationalism and went to be more progressive. And she talks about her story a lot. And she. She studied theology in Israel, no doubt, and knows so much. So I really recommend people following different people that can teach you. Monte Mater is a great one. Eric Feltus, he talks about faith from an LGBTQ perspect. I'm trying to think. There's so many people, Bible for the nor for normal people. It breaks down the Bible a lot and helps people with reading it in a different way. And then, of course, following the new evangelicals, because we're doing a lot of that work as well to help people learn how to combat this Christian nationalism that's taking over.
- [29:00]
A
I also like Dan McClellan who is a biblical scholar who talks a lot about what's literally in the Bible and what's not literally in the Bible.
- [29:07]
B
Right, right.
- [29:08]
A
And what a lot of, you know, bigots and assholes like to. To support their beliefs, you know, that have. That just simply aren't there. How do you square, like, the correction that the New Testament made to people who like to hang on to these Old Testament ideas as, like, proof that God doesn't like gay people or proof that. And the new thing is everyone's owned slaves, like every society. It's in the Bible. And it's like, I don't think Jesus was saying that.
- [29:38]
B
It's not. Yeah, right, right, right. I mean, for me, for me, again, I am also. I'm not a theologian, I'm not a historian, but for me, in my practice and my beliefs, I've always been under the impression that everything in the Old Testament was just kind of a guide and a reference for the way that things were. And when Jesus came and he changed and tried to get people to progress, it's not that it got rid of, like, the heart of the messages, but. But he was meant to guide everybody towards this new way of life, of loving one another, loving God, advocating for people, loving your neighbor as you love yourself, and things like that. So to completely ignore what he said and only focus on the Old Testament and be obsessed with his crucifixion and resurrection, you're completely ignoring his life, which is what, as a Jesus follower, you're supposed to be following. You're not supposed to follow the death of Jesus, and you're not supposed to be obsessed with everything that happened before him. They completely omitting everything that you are supposed to do. As a Christ follower, when you follow somebody, you follow those teachings. When you're Buddhist, you follow the teachings of Buddha, you know what I mean? Like, you follow that teacher within that religion. And so they're not following what he taught or what he did at all.
- [30:55]
A
And the Bible says to be more Christly.
- [30:58]
B
Yes, exactly.
- [30:59]
A
And my understanding of him is, like you said, he was a progressive. You know, he hung out with lepers and hookers and stuff and made friends, you know, like. And he also thought rich people were the worst and spoke about that pretty succinctly. I can't relate to Christians who don't take those lessons seriously. It feels like we're doing two different things. I'm not a. I was raised Christian. I'm not practicing, but. But it does feel like two completely different interpretations of the same book. And that one of them is like completely missing the point.
- [31:38]
B
Yes, yes. One is more self serving, the other one is more people serving. Right. And that's what Jesus was. The self serving. One is the one that focuses on your journey, your savior, your redemption, your sins. It's all me centered. But Jesus was not me centered. He was really about how do we show up for one another, how do we advocate for one another, how do we love each other? And I don't know how we've gotten away from that. What the emphasis is for. These two versions of Christianity are vastly different.
- [32:10]
A
I think that the prosperity gospel has really changed how we view things. And also it's part of. I think this is all chicken and the egg, but it's part of the rise of. And normal. Normalization of racism right now today, which is, you know, it's every. It's like pursuing wealth in the name of God. It's basically what slave owners did.
- [32:40]
B
You know, that's actually what using the Lord's name in vain is. Not saying like, oh, my God or God damn it, or whatever. That's not using the Lord's name in vain. Using the Lord's name is vain. Is when you use his name to get wealth. That's what that is supposed to be. And then you see all these mega church pastors and all these televangelists that are millionaires, billionaires. It's like, that's using the Lord's name in vain. That's exactly what that is. But they ignore what the actual definition of that, that phrase.
- [33:13]
A
Are you feeling, as a black person moving about the world? Like, are you feeling different lately?
- [33:19]
B
It's just this is nothing that black people haven't been through already.
- [33:24]
A
And so that's why I was embarrassed maybe to even tweet about it. I was like, I don't wanna say tweet. I don't know what to say anymore.
- [33:31]
B
It's threading, I guess.
- [33:32]
A
I guess I threaded. Yeah. But I posted something online to ask people to come on the show and talk about this, this. And I was nervous too, because. And some people did call me out and say, why are you talking about it right now? Like it's. And I said, no, duh. I'm not saying it's a new thing.
- [33:47]
B
Right.
- [33:48]
A
I'm saying it's part of backsliding really rapidly in public.
- [33:53]
B
We are, we are. But here, here's the thing. Here's the thing again. This is nothing new to black people. And, you know, we talk about this all the time. The quote Unquote, positive. And I'm trying to put a positive spin on it, even though none of this is positive, is that I do feel that there more social awareness about it now, even though we have been sounding the alarm about this type of stuff for years, I do see more people waking up to the things that are happening. And it's. You cannot deny it anymore. Right? So that is. That is my quote, unquote positive spin on everything that's happening. But again, black people, specifically black women, have always had, you know, their, their. What is. What is the phrase like? Thank you. They've always had their finger on the pulse. And I say this because I don't think. I will never think that black women are at the bottom of the totem pole, but society's standards. We are. So when you are at the bottom, all you can do is look up and see everything that's happening. So we've always been able to see what's happening. But there are other people that have privileges of not having to look and see and look down and see other things and look in different directions because nothing affects them. But we're the ones that feel the weight of everything. So we have been able to see what's coming, how it's going to affect people, what we should do. And people haven't listened to us. And now that we're here, they're like, oh, y' all been right this whole time. So I, I don't go into the whole I told you so phase, but I do go into, okay, now that you're aware, what are you going to do about it now? And I think that that's kind of more of the, the, the mindset that I've been taking is that none of this is new, but now that you're woke to it, what are we going to do about it now so that we can get this finished and end it? Because I don't know how we're going to survive four years. I really don't.
- [35:43]
A
Who are the leaders out there who you think are doing a good job of figuring out what we're going to
- [35:49]
B
do about it, organization wise? Color of Change does some really great work win with black women. Does some really great work in terms of keeping people aware. Some of my favorite creators are Whitney Elise, the Reclaimed, Jamera Burley, Elizabeth Booker, Houston, Kendria. Like, these are all black women that are always just talking about things, advocating, educating and doing really, really great work. And so I highly recommend following any of them to stay educated and aware. They're just the Doing really great things.
- [36:45]
C
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- [37:41]
A
What is like a practical thing I could be doing? I do have friends that are like, I'm not the one to explain that to you, like go read a book. But what are the best first steps to being like a louder advocate?
- [37:55]
B
Yeah, there's two things actually. So great. I write about this type of stuff on my sub stack all the time. So if anybody's interested, you can go to melindahale.substack.com I always write about these types of things and I just wrote a longer one about your specific question. But the two main things that I can say is always uplift, always marginalized voices, specifically black women, because like I said, we have a perspective that nobody else has because of how we've been positioned in society. And the second is check yourself for why you're doing it. Because if you are expecting praise in return, you're not. You haven't done the work yet to actually be able to do the work. And I think that that is one of the most important things, is that sometimes you're going to have to just do the work and show up and advocate and not expect a thanks in return. And eventually you will get that than because the work will be seen. But if you say, hey, look what I just did, then you're gonna set yourself back because then we know that you're just doing it for gratification and you're not doing it for the actual like change and progress for society. So uplift other black voices, marginalized voices, all, all voices, honestly, that are, that are marginalized and need to be heard. But don't expect a thanks in return. Those are the two things that I
- [39:11]
A
would suggest and especially with white women, like the white savior shit of like advertising every good deed. I don't know how to convince those Karens how to shut up. But also keep trying in different ways. Like I don't want to pile on to people, which happens online all the time. But there are some voices out there that really want to, like, get famous off of their advocacy or get awards or something. I don't know how to redirect that energy.
- [39:50]
B
I mean, I don't want this. I don't want people to take this directive as a form of being petty. But I will say, if you do see someone like that again, you can say, hey, this is great that you said that. I also really loved hearing this from this person. And if you can promote a person of color who is probably saying the same thing but even better, I usually
- [40:15]
A
say, like, oh, but here's an organization that's actually doing the thing you're complaining about.
- [40:21]
B
That's also a great way. Yeah, that's the other thing. If people are complaining and not doing, doing the doing, you have to give them a call to action. I'm all about call to actions. I try to give people, you know, hey, this organization is doing this. Sign this petition. Go to this event. I love call to action. So I think that's also a very, very great way to direct people.
- [40:39]
A
Do you get a chance to interact with young people?
- [40:42]
B
No, you know, I haven't. I mean, I have two littles at home. Yeah, but they're not. They're not of that age. But no, I mean, I feel like the Gen Z generation is one generation. I really do want to connect with and talk with and see where they're at, but I just haven't had those opportunities. I did a speech at a college a year or two ago, and that was probably the youngest that I've talked with and spoken with. And I. My whole speech was everything begins with the conversation. So we have to be able to converse with people and hear perspectives and honor everybody's journey. And so that really did breed some good conversations. But in general, no, I don't really get the opportunity to. But I would love to.
- [41:23]
A
Yeah, I think that you'd be great at that.
- [41:25]
B
Thank you.
- [41:25]
A
I'm wondering if you can along those lines. You know, everything begins with the conversation. Any tips on how more people can kind of start this conversation the way I did, even though I felt shy about it and I felt like it was an obvious question. I don't know how to start that conversation without hitting those stumbling blocks. We were just talking about the number
- [41:51]
B
one thing that I tell people if they want to have a conversation, if they want to show up as an advocate, whatever the case may be. I think, think start by saying exactly what you're afraid of and just say, hey, I really want to talk about this. I don't know where to start or who to talk to. Is there anyone willing to have this conversation with me? And I feel like if you word it that way, you will be met with much more grace and much more understanding because it shows your willingness and that you actually want to try. And I, and I get that it's scary to put yourself out, but I loved how you asked. You're just like, hey, is there anyone that'd be willing to come on my podcast and talk about racism with me? I thought it was such an organic and genuine way that you asked, which is why I responded.
- [42:32]
A
I didn't do very many revisions. I mean, maybe I changed one word, but I wrote it out. And then I sat there for a minute being like, okay, prepping for what the backlash might be. And I was really moved by how many genuine answers and genuine volunteers I got to come on the show.
- [42:52]
B
Yeah, no, I think it's great. And I think that this is one of the main ways that we learn and make progress, and it's having those conversations and building that connection. And I don't think that you were asking in a way that was asking for people from free labor. I, I, I, I also feel like I have a good intuition, so you can tell when somebody's genuinely wanting to have a conversation for education or whatever the case may be. And that's the vibe that I got from you. So I think for anybody is really wanting to have that conversation. You just have to start by saying that it's like, also this, like what I tell people with advocacy, like, if you want to show up, if you want to speak out, just say, hey, I want to speak out about this, but I don't know what, and I don't know where to start, but it is on my heart. And I think that that is met with a lot more grace when you approach things like that as well.
- [43:38]
A
Do you remember this? I don't know how old you are. I'm older than you. I think I'm 47. But, you know, growing up in the 80s, like, I read Roll of Thunder, Hear My Cry when I was 10 in school, you know, that was, like, my favorite chapter book for a long time. It just really impacted me. It was very visceral and scary. We had great discussions about it in our classroom. There was a feeling, I think, and you can see this in the culture of the 90s, I think with a lot of activism, you know, it being cool to be progressive and think about the wrongs of the past and figuring out how to right them. And all of that was like virtuous work that's all been turned on its head. I don't know what happened to the idea of equality and feminism and all of the. That. I feel like in the 70s, 80s, 90s, we were really driving in a certain direction and that's ignoring a lot of problems. Okay. I'm like, not. We did not have. We were not okay with gay people. There were a lot of things we weren't okay with, but it felt like a virtue that we were teaching children. Maybe the adults weren't enacting this stuff, but there was curriculum. I don't know. I don't know how to express my frustration around this, but it seems to be like an element of our education. Like, everything's so soft and then it's being taken over by racists.
- [44:59]
B
Yeah, yeah. And it's interesting because the left is being accused of indoctrination when it's actually the right that is indoctrinating. Right. Because I don't understand the issue with telling them the truth under the premise that. That we're never gonna do this again and you don't treat people like this and you don't do this. Right.
- [45:23]
A
Also firing them up. Yeah, that's the part that I thought was like the most American part of my education as a little kid. And it was very impactful. And we're just not doing that.
- [45:36]
B
Yeah, we're not. It's a fear. Clearly. There's just a fear of knowledge. Because, you know, a lot of studies have shown that the more you read and the more, you know, the more progressive and left leaning you end up being. That's just a. Yeah. When you can control what people are allowed to consume from an educational standpoint, you can control their minds and control what they think and control their actions. You know, there's a lot of people. And this is where my grace does come in. Because I do feel like a lot of people in the south and some of the Midwest, when they're kept from this information, it is ignorance and naivete and is not necessarily racist. There is plenty of racism. Trust me, there is plenty of racism. But if you don't ever see black people that are scholars, that are historians, that are doctors, that are changing the world, like, when it comes to, like, history, if you're not taught the true, accurate aspect of slavery and that it happened because of racism and that Jim Crow happened because of racism, and, and, and that's the other thing, the wording. We can't say they were discriminated against because they were black. That's not what happened. They were discriminated against because the other people were racist. It's also in how we teach it that matters. And so.
- [46:54]
A
Oh, say more about that framing.
- [46:56]
B
Yeah. So I think when you put it on the black person, it comes across as if it's their fault that they're black.
- [47:03]
A
So you're saying if you say they were discriminated against or enslaved because they were black, correlation does not equal causation 100%.
- [47:12]
B
And so in. And you're putting it on the fault of the identity rather than on the fault of the oppressor. It's like, no, they discriminated against because those white supremacists were racist. That's what the situation is. Then what you should say is, but that was wrong.
- [47:30]
A
Right.
- [47:31]
B
And that's so simple. That's so simple to say. But they can't even bring themselves to say that.
- [47:36]
A
Not even the first part.
- [47:37]
B
No, they can't. They can't.
- [47:38]
A
No, because that's being erased. What do you think about that? All of this, like, erasure of our history coinciding with these ICE raids?
- [47:48]
B
I mean, I think everything is very meticulously calculated at this point, and I think everything is on purpose. I think everything is by design. I think there's a reason for it. And I think that people need to stop, start paying attention even more because everything that they said they were going to do, they're doing. And none of it is a joke anymore. It wasn't a joke when they said it, but I think there was a lot of, oh, they're not going to do that other. He wasn't serious. No, they are. They're serious. Yeah, yeah, they're very serious. And, you know, the. Using immigrants as their, you know, their scapegoats for everything, it's. This is just dangerous. It's very dangerous. And it's. None of it is, again, surprising to me. But they had to pick a demographic that was easy to vilify and easy to get people to rally behind and also easy for people to not to be too intellectually lazy to actually look up the statistics behind immigration and behind immigrants impact in this country. It's easy to say, immigrants are taking these things from you, they're causing all these crimes. They're doing all of these things and no one will look up those answers because they know that they're playing into those people's internal implicit bias and racism towards brown people. Right.
- [49:11]
A
Yeah.
- [49:12]
B
So they, this sounds terrible to say, but they're smart they know what they're doing and it's working effectively and everybody's falling for it.
- [49:22]
A
Another thing is getting rid of the Corporation for Public Broadcasting, you know, which I grew up with watching Sesame street and, you know, Bloodhound Gang, all these multi culty groups like my. Okay, I still reference this when I'm thirsty, but there's this scene from Sesame street where Grover is like stuck in a desert with no water and he's going, because no one around speaks English. Yeah, which was fine. He got the water. You know what I mean? Like, it was just like he just needed to learn one Spanish word. And that was like funny, you know, it was like, oh, lazy. You lazy little puppet. Just get the one Spanish word right. You know, instead of like, why aren't there any English speakers in this dance desert?
- [50:19]
B
Right.
- [50:21]
A
Those things aren't being created at the moment, not in a way that's like widely accessible. I mean, there are things on, you know, these streaming platforms and stuff, but making this information available widely, I feel like, is getting harder and harder. It's hard not to feel dejected.
- [50:39]
B
Yeah, yeah, it is. It is hard. And I think. But I do think there is power in people and power in masses, especially when it comes to educational programming and trying to combat things like Prageru that teach, you know, well, it was better to be a slave than it was to be dead and things like that, or everybody was a slave and yada, yada, yada, like. But I think if we put our funding, you know, everybody donated $5 to NPR and people like, it would be sustainable, you know, in, in that sense. So I think that we, the people are going to have to step up to support these programming that is teaching kids empathy, that is exposing them to multiculturalism, that is exposing them to different identities and walks of life and, and normalizing different existences. Because, you know, for example, with my daughter, she has all these dolls. Everybody's a different race and that's normal to her. And I think little simple things like that are so important so that when you do go out in the real world, it's not like, why does that person look like this? Or why does that person believe this? I mean, even the other day she says, can somebody have two moms and two dads? And I said, yeah. I said, every family's different. And she goes, cool. I thought so. And that was the end of the conversation. Kids don't care. Kids don't. If you make it normal and you normalize it, then they're just like, cool. That's what it is.
- [52:04]
A
Also, they don't know anything.
- [52:07]
B
They don't know anything.
- [52:08]
A
So whatever you put in their heads is gonna be how they view the world.
- [52:12]
B
Yeah, 100%.
- [52:15]
A
Don't be irresponsible with that.
- [52:17]
B
Yeah. Don't teach your kid to be a bigot when they're five. Like, yeah, people have different families. People look differently. Just treat people with kindness. And they'll be like, okay, cool. Can I have a snack? Because that's what kids do. Like, they hear what you say, and they're like, whatever. Sure. That's great. That's what my mom said. That's what it is. And. And I just wish that we could have that normalization and that approach with our parenting, because it starts with our kids, it starts at home, and things won't be so, like, egregiously surprising and astonishing to them when they go out into the real world and realize there are black people, there are brown people, they do, like, different things that you didn't know about. And there are friends of yours that have two dads and friends of yours that have two moms, or there's someone that, you know is. Is. Is. Is identifies as trans or non binary, whatever the case may be. It's like, if you normalize all of these things at a young age, it will not be a bigger deal for them when they're older. And then they be these wonderfully kind, empathetic human beings that have learned to accept other people's identities in existence.
- [53:20]
A
Okay, one last question. Yeah, that's maybe frivolous. I don't know. But. Okay, so I. I grew up in a multicultural area and have had black friends my whole life. And I don't wanna do that to say, like, I can't be racist. I have black friends, whatever. But I feel like the easiest thing to recommend for people and tell me if this is, like, offensive and weird, but go out of your way to make friends with people that aren't your same. Don't look like you. Isn't that the spice of life? I mean, getting out into the world and meeting someone from Mexico and making them your. But making a concerted effort, not. You know what I mean? Not being lazy and just sitting in your house and only going on the same five Facebook pages or whatever. But, like, is it weird to recommend, like, no. Sit at the bar at the Mexican restaurant, talk to the bartender, make a friend?
- [54:17]
B
No, I love what you're saying, and I just think that obviously there's a way to do it, but, you know,
- [54:22]
A
I think I'M here because I'm afraid of becoming a real racist. Can I have a margarita? No, I'm not saying to do that. I'm saying out of your pursuit of a rich life and perspectives.
- [54:37]
B
Absolutely. Any form of diversity in your orbit is a beautiful thing. It is a beautiful thing. It makes you a better, well rounded person. I lean into that word empathy. I've said that several times. But it makes you more empathetic person. It gives you more cultural understanding. And also culture is beautiful when you learn about different cultures, the stories behind it, like learning about, you know, food that has come from, from my background, from other. Like food is a great way to have a conversation and get to know people because the story behind why somebody has a family dish or why somebody created something is so beautiful. And then you get into that history, you get into that richness of that culture. Food is one of the best, best ways like Interdine with, with people from different cultures because you will get a story, you will get a history and you'll be exposed to something that you don't know about. So I, yes, 100% do that.
- [55:30]
A
They do this at my daughter's junior high, which is great. But we did it again back in the early 90s, like in the middle of nowhere in Michigan. There was like the cultural food fest. And you would bring one of your family recipes. Yeah, again, I don't think that's like as popular as it once was. Was. I have something my daughter and I have been working on for the last year or two. She has a world map for her wall and it has stickers and we choose different regions to go to the restaurant and we're trying to like hit every country we can find in the Los Angeles area that. So I don't know. Just might want to try it with your kid. How old are your kids?
- [56:18]
B
Well, my daughter's 5, so I could definitely do that with her. My youngest is 15 months. But that's awesome.
- [56:24]
A
Well, wait a couple years and they'll both really like it. But it's been really fun. Especially like seeing like, you know, going to like Ethiopian food and seeing how you sit at the table and like different utensils and you know, going to Japanese restaurants and we're not leaving here until you know how to use chopsticks. I'm not saying that she gets to use the cheater things, but.
- [56:46]
B
Right.
- [56:46]
A
But you know, like, like exploring the world through food I think is a wonderful experience especially for kids to get them, you know, to be open to other cultures. What's your website again.
- [57:05]
B
So my website is melindahale.com and you can also follow melindahale on Instagram and threads. And my substack is melindahale.substack.com okay, everybody
- [57:17]
A
go look those up. Thank you so much, Melinda. I really appreciate you taking the time to answer my what I thought was an embarrassing dumb question on the Internet.
- [57:27]
B
Not at all.
- [57:27]
A
Is everything racist? Okay,
- [57:33]
B
thanks for having me.
- [57:34]
A
Thank you. Have a great day.
- [57:36]
B
You too. Bye.
- [57:37]
A
Bye. The Dream is a production of Little Everywhere. If you don't want to hear commercials in this show, you're in luck. For $5 a month, you can get commercial free episodes. All of them. Our entire back catalog and all new episodes. No commercials. Go to thedream.supercast.com the link should be right here in the show description on your app. That's thedream.supercast.com and follow us on Instagram. The Dream X Like the letter X Janemarie.
- [58:25]
B
Acast powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that that we recommend.
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C
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B
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