DINKS

Summary

Podcast Title: The Dream
Host/Author: Little Everywhere
Episode: DINKS
Release Date: June 27, 2025

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Introduction

In the "DINKS" episode of The Dream, host Jane Marie delves into the lives of Maris Kreisman and Josh Gondelman, a married couple who embody the "Dual Income, No Kids" (DINKS) lifestyle. The episode explores their personal choices, the dynamics of their relationship, and the broader implications of opting to live child-free in today's society.

Meet the Guests: Maris Kreisman and Josh Gondelman

Jane introduces her guests, highlighting their unique paths:

• Maris Kreisman is an essayist with her book "I Want to Burn this Place Down" and runs a newsletter called the Marist Review.

• Josh Gondelman is a writer and comedian with credits on Last Week Tonight with John Oliver and Desus and Mero. He has authored a book, performed stand-up, released a comedy special titled Positive Reinforcement, and maintains a newsletter.

Notable Quote:

"The name of this show is Kind of a Joke because the idea of living the dream is kind of a joke," – Jane Marie [01:21]

Their Story: From Meeting to Marriage

Maris and Josh recount how they met at a party Maris was hosting in 2014, celebrating the fifth anniversary of her Tumblr blog. Their immediate connection led to a swift progression from dating to marriage within a few years.

Notable Quote:

"We just started dating right away. We got along right away at the party and went on our first date maybe three days later," – Josh Gondelman [05:34]

Choosing to Be DINKS: The Decision-Making Process

A central theme of the episode is the couple's conscious decision to remain child-free. They discuss the conversations and convictions that led them to this choice, emphasizing personal happiness and the desire to avoid societal pressures.

Notable Quotes:

"When Josh asked me to marry him, I made sure that he understood that I didn't want to have kids." – Maris Kreisman [07:59]

"We have been married for eight years and together for 11, and we don't possess any children and we don't have any designs on acquiring any." – Josh Gondelman [04:40]

Lifestyle Benefits of Being DINKS

Maris and Josh highlight the freedoms and flexibilities their child-free status affords them. These include spontaneity in their personal lives, the ability to travel frequently, and financial flexibility without the added responsibilities of child-rearing.

Notable Quotes:

"We're pretty spontaneous, like day to day, where it's like, oh, it's such a beautiful night. Let's just go, and the two of us will have dinner and a couple drinks and we'll take a walk." – Josh Gondelman [20:07]

"We don't have to save to put a kid through college. We don't have to buy, you know, supplies for a kid. It's just kind of like, there's two mouths to feed, and we're both working towards feeding them and plus a pug mouth." – Josh Gondelman [20:55]

Balancing Careers and Personal Lives

The discussion delves into how being DINKS allows both Maris and Josh to pursue their careers with greater flexibility. Josh's frequent travel and Maris's freelance work are made more manageable without the constraints of childcare.

Notable Quote:

"There's a level of professional risk that we can absorb." – Josh Gondelman [20:55]

Societal Pressures and Personal Fulfillment

The couple addresses external expectations and societal norms that often equate happiness with parenthood. They share personal anecdotes about facing questions and judgments from family and friends regarding their choice to remain child-free.

Notable Quotes:

"I felt like, oh, feeling like you're gonna cry all the time is actually bad." – Maris Kreisman [25:02]

"It's so hard to put down the societal pressure to have kids." – Josh Gondelman [36:32]

Reflection on Parenthood and Personal Well-being

Maris and Josh express a deep appreciation for the joys of parenthood observed in others, yet they remain content and fulfilled without pursuing it themselves. They discuss occasional feelings of jealousy during significant milestones in their friends' children’s lives but reaffirm their satisfaction with their chosen path.

Notable Quotes:

"I do think a real freedom that we have is like, we." – Josh Gondelman [20:28]

"I am a little jealous of first school plays and milestones, but I'm glad for their happiness." – Maris Kreisman [44:35]

Navigating Future Possibilities

While firmly rooted in their decision to not have children, Maris and Josh acknowledge that life is unpredictable. They maintain that their relationship is built on strong communication and mutual understanding, which empowers them to navigate any future changes together.

Notable Quote:

"If any fundamental principle of our marriage were to change unexpectedly, that would be destabilizing for both of us." – Josh Gondelman [14:48]

Conclusion: Embracing Their Dream

The episode concludes with Maris and Josh celebrating their fulfilling, child-free lives. They emphasize that happiness is subjective and that their version of the American Dream is one where personal freedom and mutual respect take precedence over traditional expectations.

Notable Quote:

"I have so much love and joy in my life and I have a selfishness about the other stuff that I just don't want to give this." – Josh Gondelman [46:00]

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Key Takeaways

• Personal Choice: Maris and Josh exemplify how choosing to remain child-free can lead to a fulfilling and flexible lifestyle.

• Financial and Emotional Freedom: Without the responsibilities of raising children, the couple enjoys financial flexibility and the ability to pursue careers and personal interests more freely.

• Societal Expectations: They navigate and challenge societal norms that often equate parenthood with success and fulfillment.

• Strong Relationship Foundation: Their decision is supported by a strong, communicative, and understanding partnership, highlighting the importance of mutual respect and shared values in sustaining such choices.

Final Thoughts

The Dream episode "DINKS" offers an insightful look into the lives of individuals who define the American Dream on their own terms. Through Maris and Josh's experiences, listeners are encouraged to reflect on their own definitions of happiness and success, free from societal pressures.

Transcript

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[Maris Kreisman]

I'm Maris Kreisman and yeah, I'm Josh.

[Josh Gondelman]

Gondelman and we are married to each other.

[Maris Kreisman]

Yes.

[Jane Marie]

I'm Jane Marie and this is the Dream. The name of this show is Kind of a Joke because the idea of living the dream is kind of a joke. And most of the time we could call our program the Nightmare, but not today. Today's guests are friends of mine who are living a version of the dream that I think a lot of us find enviable and fascinating. They made a very simple choice with radical consequences in terms of their personal happiness and well being. Tell me a little more about you, like what do you do, where are you, et cetera.

[Maris Kreisman]

I have a book out now called I Want to Burn this Place Down. It's an essay collection about all of the relatable. Yes. I mean, look around, right? And I have a newsletter called the Marist Review and you can find it just by going to marischriseman.com Great. Yeah.

[Josh Gondelman]

And that's our hot pug, Maggie, who's scratching on the carpet a little bit, which is not a usual Maggie proclivity. I'm Josh and I am a writer and comedian. I've worked in television on late night shows like Last Week Tonight with John Oliver and Desus and Marrow. I've written a book. I do a lot of standup. I have a new special out called Positive Reinforcement and I also write a newsletter. But Writer, Comedian I think is the headline of what I do. Pug dad, Pug mom, Celtics fan, like just Boston expat.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah, Josh left out one Thing. For all of you avid public radio listeners, Josh's voice may sound familiar. He's one of the regular guests on. Wait, wait, don't tell me. Yeah, we're jealous, Josh. But wait, wait, there's more. I wanted to invite you both on because I think you are living a dream, at least a dream I once had of being a dink, which I thought was like a rude thing when my mom would say it when we were growing up, but now I'm like, oh, she was just jealous. Living in a dual income, no kids household is what that stands for. And obviously this season we're branching out and doing different things outside of pyramid schemes and wellness and such and just exploring different corners of the American dream and what that's supposed to look like. And so I wanted to talk to you about what life is like as a married couple who've been together for a while and don't have nor seem to be itching to possess children.

[Josh Gondelman]

Possessed children is such a good way to put.

[Maris Kreisman]

Well, you.

[Jane Marie]

I mean, having them, like, implies that someone's body gets, like, ripped apart. But I feel like getting them or possessing them. Yeah, acquiring a child is kind of what everyone does, whether or not their body is part of that equation. So would you say that that's a correct assessment? Do you think that's a correct assessment of where you're at?

[Josh Gondelman]

Yeah, I think that's a great description. We have been married for eight years and together for 11, and we don't possess any children and we don't have any, you know, designs on acquiring any.

[Maris Kreisman]

Our dog is very lucky.

[Josh Gondelman]

She has a lot of attention paid to her. So, like, if she was hoping to get up to no good, it would be difficult for her because we focus all our parental energy on that.

[Jane Marie]

Well, good for Maggie. How did you meet?

[Maris Kreisman]

We had a mutual friend who brought Josh to a party I was throwing.

[Josh Gondelman]

It's an extremely 2014 set of circumstances. Which is a friend that we'd both just met brought me to a party that Maris had thrown to celebrate the five year anniversary of her very popular Tumblr blog.

[Jane Marie]

Wait, what?

[Maris Kreisman]

Yep.

[Jane Marie]

First of all, Maris, good for you. You are just living it all over the place.

[Josh Gondelman]

Yeah, we just started dating right away. We got along right away at the party and, like, went on our first date maybe three days later. And then just, like, continued to date through a wedding and living together and moving apartments.

[Maris Kreisman]

Yeah, we moved in together. We waited to get married, but we moved in together pretty quickly.

[Josh Gondelman]

Well, it was all like, to me, it felt like Pretty structured at one year marks where, like, we moved in together right around a year of dating, like, 13 months, maybe. We got engaged a year after that on, like, our anniversary, and then got married just over a year after that. So it all, you know, none of it. We were together for three years and we got married, but we knew at two years that we were going to get married.

[Maris Kreisman]

Yes.

[Jane Marie]

I love the kind of romances where you meet and then you just kind of never stop hanging out.

[Maris Kreisman]

Mm.

[Josh Gondelman]

Yeah, it was.

[Maris Kreisman]

That's how it was.

[Josh Gondelman]

It was really lovely. Like, it just. I don't know, I always just felt like, oh, this is great. And it's always more fun when Maris is around.

[Jane Marie]

Aw, you still feel that way?

[Josh Gondelman]

She patted my hand twice. I do, yeah.

[Jane Marie]

Good, good.

[Josh Gondelman]

It's pretty lovely. I mean, the comedian Phil Hanley has this joke that I always think about where he says, and I think he's recorded this and put on specials years ago. So I don't feel bad because it is such a clarifying sentiment that I feel like people should hear it of. Like, they say, when you meet the right. You know, right away, how come when it's the wrong person, it takes a year and a half?

[Maris Kreisman]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jane Marie]

I'm watching. I'm in the middle of watching the New Love island, and I feel that way at watching everybody. I'm like, it should not be this hard. Like, what is the amount of work you're putting into this complete stranger? Not just, like, to get them to like you, but to even be able to tolerate them.

[Josh Gondelman]

Right.

[Maris Kreisman]

My mom always used to say, when you meet the right person, it'll be easy. And I was just like, stop lying, Mom. That's not a thing.

[Jane Marie]

Did you have conversations early on? So it sounds like you moved in after a year, you got engaged after two, and then kind of the rest is history. Right. Did you have conversations about what your togetherness would look like, what your relationship would look like? Kind of in the mid to long run.

[Maris Kreisman]

When Josh asked me to marry him, I made sure that he understood that I didn't want to have kids.

[Josh Gondelman]

Yeah. That was, like, the biggest conversation that we had was. Was that night and I.

[Jane Marie]

That night. The first night.

[Josh Gondelman]

No, no, no. When we got engaged. Oh, the night we got engaged, we talked about it, like, in, like, real. In real sincerity. I think that was, like, the kind of moment of like, oh, this isn't. At the very least, if we do end up acquiring a child, if we're going third party, it'll be down the line. And, yeah, that's I think that's. That was established, like, certainty in certainty when we got engaged. But I think we'd talked about it before. We must have, like, neither of us. I think we both are. I remember both of our stances, like, up until that point being like, I. You know, I'm not in a rush to do it. It's not something that feels pressing or missing from my life. It's not like the puzzle piece that completes the picture of a happy and thriving life and relationship.

[Maris Kreisman]

And I had always. I had always had bad luck in love and so always thought, like, I can't even consider this. Like, I can barely afford my studio apartment. What am I gonna do? And then when Josh and I got into a stable relationship, I realized that I still didn't feel compelled.

[Josh Gondelman]

Oh, that's so interesting.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah, that is interesting. Say more about that.

[Maris Kreisman]

Like, you.

[Jane Marie]

You had. You been thinking up until that point.

[Maris Kreisman]

Like, well, when the circumstances are right. Yeah. And, like, there's. I never, when I was a kid, thought I wasn't gonna have kids. Like, I was gonna do every single thing regular people did, and regular people have kids, and. And so I wasn't going to deny myself of that. And sometimes I still can't believe how revolutionary this feels that I've chosen something so not normal.

[Jane Marie]

Well, you know what's funny is that doing the normal things that normal people do is sort of my. Well, I always put it, like, I want the breadth of the human experience, but I did not grow up being, like, baby hungry. I've never had that itch. Have you ever had that at any point in your life, Maris, to, like, put a baby inside of your body?

[Maris Kreisman]

I have had the itch to hold babies and rock babies and stuff, but, no, not a baby inside my body. No.

[Josh Gondelman]

And I've also specifically, like, I used to work with little kids. I love babies and kids, But I've specifically always been, like, mortified by the idea of making someone grow a baby inside them. It just felt like such a cruel thing to do to another person's human body.

[Maris Kreisman]

I also want to mention that I have type 1 diabetes, and I know plenty of type 1 diabetics who've had very successful pregnancies. But I grew up in the age of Steel Magnolias.

[Josh Gondelman]

Mm.

[Maris Kreisman]

Where Julia Roberts was told that she could not have a baby or else she would die. And what happens? She dies.

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[Maris Kreisman]

Sorry. Spoiler alert.

[Jane Marie]

Spoiler alert from the 80s, guys.

[Josh Gondelman]

Well, this was also. I remember that being, like, a really big part of our conversation in Philadelphia when We got engaged. You saying, like, this would just be so hazardous to my body, and I don't think it's anything that I want to take on necessarily. And I was like, oh, yeah, for sure. We can always seek out a baby if we want a baby down the line. And, you know, nine years later, it hasn't come up that we're like, God, we gotta find a baby.

[Maris Kreisman]

We just found a baby.

[Jane Marie]

Right.

[Maris Kreisman]

Her name's Maggie, and she's a pug.

[Josh Gondelman]

And she's a pug.

[Maris Kreisman]

Yeah. I have to say, my mom told me to just get a dog, so.

[Jane Marie]

Ouch. Mom.

[Maris Kreisman]

I know, but she was right.

[Josh Gondelman]

And I think, like, I don't. I never felt, like, a lot of pressure from my parents. Like, I think we had, like, a brief talk about it at one point, and I know. I think they would really. I think they make great grandparents. I think they're great parents, and. But it's. Yeah, I think, you know, I really offloaded that pressure to my sister, who also does not currently have children.

[Maris Kreisman]

So here's. Here's the thing that I remember most. I went to my endocrinologist, and she knew that I was getting married. And so she said, are you gonna have babies? And I said, I don't think so. And she, more than anyone, should know, like, what's involved in type 1 diabetes and pregnancy. And she said, well, does he know? And I said, yeah, of course he knows. We've discussed this. And she says, but what if he changes his mind?

[Jane Marie]

And you're like, do you know something? I don't know.

[Maris Kreisman]

I guess that's a familiar trope.

[Jane Marie]

But, I mean, I really. What is the answer? Like, well, then he can just go have a baby elsewhere. You know, like, we'll get divorced for one of the hundred reasons people get divorced.

[Josh Gondelman]

Yeah. Right. I think that's a. That's, like, a weird thing to propose as. Like, I don't know. We've. We've talked about it. We've. We have an. An understanding and a loving marriage. And if, like, any fundamental principle of our marriage would be to change unexpectedly, that would, I think, be destabilizing to the both of us.

[Maris Kreisman]

Right.

[Jane Marie]

I mean, that is. That is. Yeah. Where I was going to go next is like, well, people change things, circumstances change, life happens to you. And the idea that you're never going to be a different person within, like, a lifelong relationship is weird to me.

[Josh Gondelman]

Yeah. I think ideally. And ideally. Right. A marriage can, like, withstand a capacity for change, and I think that's, like, a really Beautiful thing. But I don't think, you know, the people I've known who have gotten divorced because there have been new circumstances are just growing apart after a long time. It's like, I don't look at them and be like, oh, those failures who couldn't stay static or couldn't, like, absorb another person's dynamism. I think that that's, like, part of what life is. And you want both people to be happy in the long term. And I think we are, like, we're very long term compatible is what it feels like now and what the hope is.

[Maris Kreisman]

Yeah.

[Jane Marie]

Did you both come from big families?

[Maris Kreisman]

I have two older brothers and they both have kids, so a lot of pressure was taken off for me, even with that.

[Josh Gondelman]

And I'm the older brother and I have one younger sister. And I think it is kind of like the expectation, I think, would be on me to go first.

[Jane Marie]

How old are you guys? I forget.

[Maris Kreisman]

I'm 46.

[Josh Gondelman]

And I'm 40.

[Jane Marie]

Okay. So, Maris, you and I are the same age. I mean, I'm 47. Not to brag, but I'm close.

[Josh Gondelman]

She made it.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah. There's still plenty of time. I mean, I live in LA where people have kids in their 60s, so, you know, there's lots of time. Are there people around you, close to you, either in proximity or emotionally, who have had babies recently?

[Maris Kreisman]

Yes.

[Josh Gondelman]

Yeah, lots.

[Jane Marie]

And what are your thoughts? I imagine you have this, like, pillow talk after you visit them. The baby going, like, ah. They just get to go to sleep tonight. We're not gonna be up nursing all night like they are.

[Maris Kreisman]

I think that's. We hang out with baby Lulu and she is charming and delightful, and we enjoy our couple of hours with her.

[Josh Gondelman]

Totally.

[Maris Kreisman]

And then we go home satisfied.

[Josh Gondelman]

Yeah. That is a couple of hours usually is enough baby in the day for us. But, like, I don't know. I think. I also do think it's really beautiful to see friends or family members who, like, really wanted this as part of their life, to feel really happy and engaged and like, just this, like, love, like a new love in their life in this way. I think that's really special to observe. And I'm always really, like, blown away by that joy when I see it in other people.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah. But it doesn't overcome you?

[Josh Gondelman]

No, not to the point of, like, wanting it for myself, but it's like overcoming, like. Like beautiful music is overcoming, where I'm not like, I gotta play the bassoon, but I am like, wow. It's amazing that this feeling exists. And you can, you can see it and feel it.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah.

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[Jane Marie]

What are the things that you are doing in life or could do later that, like, probably wouldn't be possible if you had a small person in your home? Do you guys have a vacation spot that you like to go to? Are you spontaneous? Like, are you doing. I'm imagining just this, like, carefree coupled them.

[Josh Gondelman]

I think a real freedom that we have is like, we. It's little stuff. It's like, I would say we're pretty spontaneous, like, day to day, though, where it's like, oh, it's such a beautiful night. Let's just go, and the two of us will have dinner and a couple drinks and we'll take a walk. And like, these are all things that, like, people can do with kids. But, you know, I do think there's a little more flexibility and there's also a little more, like, I think there's a little more professional risk that we can absorb.

[Maris Kreisman]

Yes.

[Josh Gondelman]

Because.

[Jane Marie]

Oh, my God. I was just gonna ask.

[Josh Gondelman]

That's the big one. Because I do think, you know, we travel a bunch, and I travel a lot, which I think would be a lot harder. It would be a lot harder to do that kind of professional travel that I do if. And that Maris has coming up for her book tour. If. If we had to, like, think about childcare as well, you know. But it definitely. There's like a level of, oh, we don't have to save to put a kid through college. We don't have to buy, you know, supplies for a kid. Like, it's just kind of like, there's two mouths to feed, and we're both working towards feeding them and plus a pug mouth. But, you know, she's not a big eater.

[Jane Marie]

But you can be pickier in how you find the money to feed your mouths 100%.

[Maris Kreisman]

When we got married, I went freelance for the first time. Like, I had never had the freedom to do that. And I started making much less money than I had been making in my regular day to day jobs. And it was. That felt like freedom for sure. I had always done a little writing on the side, but until I married Josh and went on his health insurance, I couldn't just be a writer. And that is what that allowed me to do.

[Josh Gondelman]

And we've, I think we've both had periods of like more and less work in creative fields over the past eight years. Like, it kind of ebbs and flows and I, I think like we haven't really come up against a, a terrible dry spell or a terrible challenge, you know. Oh no. Like we neither of us fortunately have had like a medical emergency that has caused extra finance that we're like, oh, we. Even if we start earning and building back up savings again, we still have to like just tread water. So much harder to like pay for school and to. If we want to go out for three hours, we have to get childcare or, you know, I think we both have. There are many evenings where we're both doing either work events or seeing friends separately or seeing friends together. And I think we're like pretty bustling in terms of like, social life and like the blend of social and work life as well. Right. Like we're, you know, a lot of nights it's like, oh, I'll go out and do a show, but I don't have to like come home to relieve the babysitter. So I can just like stay out and hang out with friends for a couple hours and you can be in bed and relax. Relaxed and not worried and like that kind of stuff. Like it's just, oh my God.

[Jane Marie]

Relaxed and not worried.

[Maris Kreisman]

Yeah.

[Josh Gondelman]

I mean, like, as not to put you on blast, but like your best approximation, Maris, of relax to not worry.

[Maris Kreisman]

Thank you.

[Josh Gondelman]

Of course.

[Jane Marie]

What did you learn in previous relationships that brought you to be. So you guys are like my ideal couple in that you're both industrious and seem to like each other a lot and aren't. When I said a relax and not worry just now, of course I was talking about like when I feel worried about my daughter. But I'm also, I've also been in a string of relationships where I'm worried about them or like, you know, oh, am I staying out too late? Am I gonna get in trouble? Like, it seems like you guys are solid in that arena. Did you learn anything in your past relationships that led you to be like this compatible, I guess, or understanding of one another's.

[Maris Kreisman]

You know, from my perspective, we both had something similar in that we had dated people who. What is the correct way to put this.

[Josh Gondelman]

I don't know what you're gonna say, so I don't. I can't be of any help yet.

[Maris Kreisman]

Were a lot, like, had a lot.

[Jane Marie]

Of people who were a lot say.

[Maris Kreisman]

More, and we were the kind of rocks.

[Josh Gondelman]

Oh, interesting, because I also. I feel the opposite about some of my previous relationships. I want to hear what you have to say, and then I'd like to.

[Maris Kreisman]

Yeah, it sort of goes back to, again, what my mom would say, like, find some nice lawyer. You don't need a creative person. You just like someone who you could have a life with. And that always sounded so disgusting to me. And I wanted drama, and I wanted emotion, and it was not until I met Josh where I felt like, oh, feeling like you're gonna cry all the time is actually bad.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah. Yeah. Maris, did you have to do work on that, though, for yourself, like, to be chill enough to, you know, to be in this? Like, did you?

[Maris Kreisman]

No. I wrote a piece 10 years ago about how I met Josh because I got lucky. Not because I worked on myself, not because I really changed anything about my approach. It's just, like, I found him, and we clicked, and we had similar attitudes about life, and suddenly this is what I wanted, too. Like, I was just, like, ready to not have so much angst in my life.

[Jane Marie]

You were what, 30?

[Maris Kreisman]

35.

[Jane Marie]

35. Yeah. That's about the time you wanted to. All the bullshit to stop Josh. What about you?

[Josh Gondelman]

I think, you know, I think I understand what you're talking about. Yeah. I think in the. A long time ago, I had dated people that were, like, very intense, and there was, like, a tempestuousness to things at times, and I definitely had that maxim in my head of, like, relationships are work, and they're. They're hard. And I. I think, like, work doesn't mean hard. Like, work means, like, you care about the other person and you take them into account, and you. You know, you're invested in their happiness, and they're not just, like, riding sidecar on your journey. But it doesn't mean, like, things have to be fraught, difficult and. Right. Fraught is a great word for it. And then. But then after that, or even around that, I think I dated a number of people who had kind of the opposite thing where I felt like I was the chaos element in the relationship.

[Maris Kreisman]

Fascinating.

[Josh Gondelman]

Yeah. Well, I mean, just because, like, I work nights, I travel on weekends, I, like, miss milestones. I miss. And I was. Until we met, I was in, like, a real struggle and strain place in My career where I was like, is this gonna happen? Like, am I going to have this career that I'm kind of dreaming of come together in a way that feels like, am I gonna hit the benchmarks where I'm like, it's financially sustainable, it's like emotionally less grueling. And I, right before we met was when I got my first full time job in tv. And so it wasn't internal work as much as external thing I was looking for that I was like really scrambling for and, and not maybe not being the best possible partner to other people I've dated that resolved itself enough that I was like, oh, I can like exhale. And I was, I think, you know, I think just circum by circumstance I was ready to be a much more present partner. But I also think so much of it is that like, Maris and I both, when we met, had like very busy, separate lives. And so if I was out at night, it was like, well, she is also out at night and maybe we meet up after or maybe we see each other tomorrow. And that was like a really, you know, I think like having a life that is cozy and a relationship that is cozy and reciprocal and like loving without being like the kind of picket fence domesticity was something that was really, is like really a beautiful, wonderful feature of, of my life and our relationship together.

[Jane Marie]

Well, it sounds like that alchemy is working and that maybe adding a child would push the limits.

[Maris Kreisman]

And I could see, I mean, I could see for sure, especially when Josh was really on tour. I would imagine that I would do more of the care, even though that is not something that, that Josh would feel right about.

[Josh Gondelman]

And I am very maternal by nature, I would say. I think I'd make a pretty good mom, probably better.

[Jane Marie]

But you may not even be encouraged to go on tour yourself, Maris.

[Maris Kreisman]

Yeah, I mean, and that's, that's true because that's.

[Jane Marie]

It does, it does land with us, you know, the moms, a lot of times.

[Josh Gondelman]

Yeah. And I, and I think like, I am, and this is maybe a selfish thing to say, but like, I am pretty, like career motivated and like, not just career, but like, I like the, the creative exploration. You know what I mean? It's not just like, oh, I. I'm gonna die at my desk like an auto executive in the 80s. It's just like, oh, this is like fun and exciting to get to do and I have these opportunities that I really like. And like, often it's really fun for, for Maris to come. And sometimes it's not because I'm going to a place that she doesn't care to get up at 6am to get on a plane to go to. And. And so, like, that kind of stuff, like, taking that from being like, this is fun. It's how I earn a living. I'll get another writing gig down the line, and that will, like, replenish some savings and give us a little bit of a cushion goes from, oh, this is, like, really fun and exciting. And I can be creative to, like, fuck, I get to sell a TV show. So I get to think of some idea that some idiot executive will buy. And, like, you know, I think it would put a pressure on the creative work that would make it be like, well, why don't I just get a job that you just show up and then they give you money and then you show up the next day and they give you a little more money.

[Jane Marie]

Right. Same all the while. All the while trying to create a person who doesn't have that problem.

[Josh Gondelman]

Yeah. And it's, you know, I. I taught little kids for years and. And that was my.

[Jane Marie]

Wait, say more. What? When? Sorry.

[Josh Gondelman]

Yeah, no, that's okay. I taught pre K for four years after college, and I tutored that period. And then another couple of years, another two and a half years after I. I'm so jealous.

[Jane Marie]

I love that age.

[Josh Gondelman]

Oh, it's great. It was so fun. It's really fun. We have, like, little. Our upstairs neighbors have little kids, and they're just, like, so cute and precious and like, I think both of us, like, the. We had. I think this stopped. But we had a neighbor at one point who whistled when they went up and down the stairs. And it drove me. It drove Maris up a wall. But we have these two little kids that are, like, kind of up and down the stairs, you know, going to school, going on errands. Yes. Singing really loud at 8am and, like, it's just so cute. And I think we both feel that way.

[Maris Kreisman]

Yes.

[Josh Gondelman]

And so I worked with little kids. I. Almost all my work experience before graduation was, like an assistant at summer programs and camps and stuff. So that was like, a big part of it. But it just. It honestly was like, oh, I bet. Comedy, writing and performance at the level I can get to a level where that is a more sustainable career because it's like, I'm never gonna make enough money on my own to, like, own a home or to retire doing this job. So that is, like, a weird feeling where, like, oh, I'm in the entertainment industry for the stability.

[Maris Kreisman]

Yeah.

[Josh Gondelman]

And I think And I think a child of our own would also, like, tip that balance back out of whack. For sure.

[Maris Kreisman]

Yes, for sure.

[Josh Gondelman]

My dad, when I was like. I think probably, like, early 20s, he was a. He was just retiring. He worked as a glazer for, like, 40 years. So he did, like, glass storefronts, largely, like, big. He worked in construction with glass, and he was like. He was doing, like, oh, there's a new Barnes and Noble, so he's installing the windows. So it was like a real. A very skilled, super. Like, he was really good at it, worked really hard at it. He was like, I don't know what you're gonna do, but, like, don't do this. He's like, it has been so hard on my body. And, like, you know, I don't think he has regrets. Like, he. He was really good at his job, and I think really enjoyed much of the work, you know, not necessarily being outside in Boston.

[Jane Marie]

Well, personal regrets and our wishes for our children often get mixed up.

[Josh Gondelman]

Yes. That's such a great. That's such a great way to put it, because I don't think he was like, I personally regret this, but I think he was like, I. I think there's a life for you without the specific strains that I have taken on.

[Jane Marie]

Well, that's a good segue into another point I wanted to bring up, which is that I get in trouble for saying that if I were so audience, just so you know, I have the perfect child. She's amazing and perfect, and so, like, don't even bother having another one because it's already done.

[Josh Gondelman]

Which is what you would have told your mom, too, right?

[Jane Marie]

Seriously. Nailed it. Clothing down shop.

[Josh Gondelman]

Got it in one.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah. But I do get in trouble for saying, if I had it to do over, I wouldn't. And I say this as I'm looking at a picture of my perfect daughter on the wall in my office, but I mostly say that to people without children, that in hindsight, my life has changed so drastically that I don't recognize it a lot of the time.

[Josh Gondelman]

Yeah.

[Jane Marie]

And in the midst of that, I'm trying to teach another person how to be a person, but I do get shit for it. Like, you're kidding. You would do it all over. I'm like, I don't know if I would. I don't know if I would. I don't know if I would be the window glazer if I had it to do over. I guess I have to live out my fantasy by telling my child, you don't have to. Have to get, you know, or whatever.

[Josh Gondelman]

Yeah. And I think, like, I don't know, it feels to me and maybe this is like, maybe you are not asking for this answer, but like, that's, to me, that's very understandable. And it's also like, I think a lot of people have. It seems like many people have kids because it's the normal thing to do, like the standard societal thing to do and not because they. They're like, this completes what I am missing in life or this is a joy that I want to know and. And can't imagine life without experiencing. And I think, like, there are so many reasons to have a child, but I think there are also a lot of bad reasons. And also in America now.

[Maris Kreisman]

Pressure.

[Josh Gondelman]

Yes, pressure. But in America now, it's like so hard.

[Maris Kreisman]

Like we're gonna go extinct.

[Josh Gondelman]

Yeah, no, we' talking natalism.

[Maris Kreisman]

I mean, sort of.

[Josh Gondelman]

But also. What I'm saying is also, there are. There is so much. It is legislatively and medically more difficult now than it used to be to not have a child in many cases.

[Jane Marie]

Totally. I mean, look, I make a whole show about abortion and how important it is.

[Maris Kreisman]

Yeah, foreign.

[Hannah]

Hey, guys, it's Hannah from Giggly Squad. You know, I love beauty and that's why I go to Sephora. It's not just shopping. It's like a glam experience. The beauty advisors actually get beauty, unlike those big box stores. And they give me all the advice I need. And I love going with the products you can only find at Sephora, like my new favorite Kayali fragrance, my perfect shade of Haus Labs foundation, and finally restocked my Lineage lip mask. All with the help of real experts. Oh, and if you haven't tried day shampoo, go try it. It's a game changer. Sephora isn't just a store. It's the beauty destination. Go. You'll thank me later if you're alignment.

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[J]

What if I told you that right now millions of people are living with a debilitating condition that's so misunderstood, many of them don't even know that they have it? That condition is obsessive compulsive disorder, or OCD. I'm Dr. Patrick McGrath, the chief clinical officer of NOCD, and in the 25 years I've been treating OCD, I've met so many people who are suffering from the condition in silence, unaware of just what it was. OCD can create overwhelming anxiety and fear around what you value most, make you question your identity, beliefs and morals, and drive you to perform mentally and physically draining compulsions or rituals. Over my career, I've seen just how devastating OCD can be when it's left untreated. But help is available. That's where NOCD comes in. NOCD is the world's largest virtual therapy provider for obsessive compulsive disorder. Our licensed therapists are trained in exposure and response prevention therapy, a specialized treatment proven to be incredibly effective for OCD. So visit nocd.com to schedule a free 15 minute call with our team. That's nocd.com Ever feel like you're carrying.

[Jesu Jo]

Something heavy and don't know where to put it down? Or wonder what on earth you're supposed to do when you just can't seem to cope? I'm Jesu Jo, a licensed therapist with years of experience providing individual and family therapy. And I've teamed up with BetterHelp to create mind if We Talk? A podcast to demystify what therapy's really about. In each episode, you'll hear guests talk about struggles we all face, like living with grief or managing anger. Then we break it all down with a fellow mental health professional to give you actionable tips you can apply to your own life. Follow and listen to Mind if We Talk on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. And don't forget, your happiness matters.

[Jane Marie]

I do think that the folklore, the romanticism, has outlived the utility which drove most reproduction for all of humankind up until the Industrial Revolution, essentially, you know, we needed to. I could nerd off about this, like, forever, but the Black Death really created an environment where you needed to be married and be monogamous and have babies because everyone around you was dying. And so we had to create this system. And then we built up systems around that system to be like, well, actually, it's virtuous, actually. Maintaining your land, keeping your property, passing down things to your heirs, all of that stuff is important. Otherwise the species dies. And politicians now are invoking that as if that's what's happening right now with birth rates.

[Josh Gondelman]

Yeah.

[Maris Kreisman]

Wild.

[Josh Gondelman]

Yeah, that's. It's like, it's ridiculous and it's and it's also that, you know, this isn't a unique thought, but bringing this up about birth rates while keeping people out of the country and kicking people out of the country really ruthlessly. And so it's like, I don't think there is that. I. I don't feel that compulsion of like, but who will till the soil in my old age? About kids.

[Maris Kreisman]

Josh has a really good joke.

[Josh Gondelman]

What's that?

[Maris Kreisman]

Which I put in my book about not needing someone to inherit an heir.

[Josh Gondelman]

Oh, yeah, right. People say. I think I also have probably less appetite for legacy than most people. I have like a pretty firm idea of like, when I'm dead, whatever happens after that regarding me does not matter other than like the people. I love being sad, but I'm not.

[Jane Marie]

Like, right. If I'm not there to experience it, it didn't happen.

[Josh Gondelman]

Yeah. Is how I feel about parties.

[Maris Kreisman]

And Josh at the end of that bit says, and we live in a two bedroom apartment in Brooklyn that we rent.

[Josh Gondelman]

That we rent.

[Maris Kreisman]

So like the IKEA furniture could be yours if it holds up until you're born and then grow old, you know.

[Josh Gondelman]

Like, yeah, but it's like, yeah, right. I don't have a lot of like, but. But who will carry on the jeans? Like, it's just not a thing for me.

[Jane Marie]

What I've noticed is we've been talking for almost an, let's say an hour and 15 now, and neither of you have had to say like anything about the baby waking up, putting the baby down for a nap, getting the baby, leaving work for the baby. The person that you have to drive around. Like, I'm so. The freedom. I know you can't feel it cause you're inside it.

[Josh Gondelman]

Sure, I super feel it.

[Maris Kreisman]

I get it. I can nap whenever I want. That's a huge thing.

[Josh Gondelman]

So we, this is something that we've talked about, but not for a long time, which was when we got a dog. I think people think a lot of the time getting a pet is like an on ramp, like a training wheels for a baby. And we got the dog and we're like, this is plenty that we're full.

[Maris Kreisman]

And in fact, our dog was old. And so we kind of felt like it was good practice for taking care of aging people rather than babies.

[Josh Gondelman]

Starter baby, when our dog when busy. Our previous dog, when she got very old, she would have to go out in the middle of the night. And it was, you know, we were like, this, of course we'll do this. This is our beloved pet. But I was like, I think there was a little grumbling of like, if this is what we knew we were signing up for, we might as well have had a kid.

[Maris Kreisman]

And then I would tell my friends about it and they'd be like, well, my daughter sleeps through the night. She's four.

[Jane Marie]

Is there anything that you are a little bit jealous of in terms of, you know, watching your parent friends or like, is there some part of you that has a little bit of a string tugging at your heart?

[Maris Kreisman]

I mean for sure, like first school play, first, like all of these milestones, like I, I am a little jealous.

[Josh Gondelman]

Of that and I do, I have a real appreciation for the idea of just your capacity for love and care being exploded into this new vastness. I think that's really beautiful. And I love when I see other people experiencing that and I'm so glad, glad for them. But to me, I, it just doesn't feel like I have so much. I would have so much fear attached to that as well. And I, yeah, like responsibility. Yeah, well, responsibility and like the anxiety over like, I hope like I'm just too, I'm too tender and squeamish, I think. And I'm just like I, I would worry all day, every day. And I think like that, like taking the lid off of how much love you can have in your life in that way feels like a Pandora's box of like terror.

[Maris Kreisman]

And yeah, I'm an anxious person anyway and yeah, it's enough to take care.

[Josh Gondelman]

Of the dog, but it's. Yeah, it's not like I. Sorry, I interrupted you.

[Maris Kreisman]

No, okay.

[Josh Gondelman]

It's not like I see people with kids and go like every moment of this looks like agony. Like, it's certainly not that. It's just like the, on balance it just feels like the, the. I have so much love and joy in my life and I have like a selfishness about the other stuff that I just am like, I don't want to give this.

[Jane Marie]

The dream is a production of Little Everywhere. Our tip line is 323-2481-488 if you want to tell your story.

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[Hannah]

Hey guys, it's Hannah from Giggly Squad. You know, I love beauty and that's why I go to Sephora. It's not just shopping, it's like a glam experience. The beauty advisors actually get beauty, unlike those big box stores and they give me all the advice I need. And I love going with the products you can only find at Sephora, like my new favorite Kayali fragrance, my perfect shade of Haus Labs foundation, and finally, restocked my Lineage lip mask. All with the help of real experts. Oh, and if you haven't tried Day shampoo, go try it. It's a game changer. Sephora isn't just a store. It's the beauty destination.

[Josh Gondelman]

Go.

[Hannah]

You'll thank me later.

[Howie Mandel]

I can't tell you how often I hear, oh, I'm a little ocd. I like things neat. That's not ocd. I'm Howie Mandel and I know this because I have ocd. Actual OCD causes relentless, unwanted thoughts. What if I did something terrible and forgot? What if I'm a bad person? Why am I thinking this terrible thing? It makes you question absolutely everything and you'll do anything to feel better. OCD is debilitating, but it's also highly treatable with the right kind of therapy. Regular talk therapy doesn't cut it. OCD needs specialized therapy. That's why I want to tell you about no C D. NOCD is the world's largest virtual therapy provider for ocd. Their licensed therapists provides specialized therapy virtually and it's covered by insurance for over 155 million Americans. If you think you might be struggling with OCD, visit nocd.com to schedule a free 15 minute call and learn more. That's no c d dot com.