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- [00:00]
Capital One Advertiser
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- [00:31]
Verizon Advertiser
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- [00:37]
Jamila Lemieux
You too.
- [00:37]
Verizon Advertiser
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- [01:01]
Jane Marie
Foreign I'm Jane Marie and this is the dream Happy Single Mother's Day.
- [01:09]
Jamila Lemieux
My name is Jamilah Lemieux. I am a writer, cultural critic and mother. I am originally from Chicago. I have been writing professionally since the end of my time in college. I well, I shouldn't say professionally. I started a blog at the end of college that kind of took on a life of its own and that led me to a career as a writer and editor. I am from the early days of the Black feminist blogosphere.
- [01:38]
Jane Marie
I met today's guest online when she began a discussion about who gets to call themselves a single mother and I said meet and then a bunch of people piled on saying well really depends on if you have help or if there's a co parent or etc Etc Etc. It's like I'm single. I do not have a partner. So I thought that's what the word single meant. Ms. Lemieux wrote a book called Black Single Mother and it's fantastic. It has a bunch of personal essays from her and oral histories from a lot of black single mothers and I loved our conversation.
- [02:20]
Jamila Lemieux
I was an editor at Ebony magazine for five years and I've done a number of interesting things since then. I have wanted to write a book for so long like My website dating back to 2010 said she is working on her first book. You know, and I had a literary agent for at least five years before we sold. And we cycled through a whole bunch of different proposals. You know, we'd come up with something. I'd write the proposal, and I'd be like, I don't like this. I don't want to write this book. You know? And a few times she suggested to me, you know, you should do something about single motherhood or you should do something about black single motherhood. And I was just like, no, no, no, no, no. And, like, even though I had been a public, you know, I was a well known, you know, Twitter influencer, if you will. I. I posted lots of pictures and videos of my child and antidotes from our lives. So people were aware that I was a single mother, but I hadn't made single mother my work. You know what I mean?
- [03:17]
Jane Marie
It wasn't your brand.
- [03:18]
Jamila Lemieux
It wasn't my brand. You know, my brand was feminism. You know, motherhood, sure. But in humor, but not necessarily. Like, I didn't even really want motherhood to be my brand.
- [03:28]
Jane Marie
You know, that's interesting because I have the same experience I was at Jezebel when I had my daughter, and I felt compelled to write about her and motherhood, but I did not feel drawn to mom content. Yeah, can you talk about that?
- [03:43]
Jamila Lemieux
Absolutely. Like, I never engaged with mom content. I, like, for the longest time. And I actually did co host a parenting podcast for six years called. It was once called mom and dad are Fighting. It's now called Care and Feeding. And I have been a columnist for Slate's parenting advice column for over six years, Care and Feeding. And that was my first engagement with mom or parent Content was creating it. You know, Like, I remember one year I wrote an essay about Father's Day and having complicated feelings about it. You know, I'd written about dating, I'd written about my hopes for my daughter and keeping her safe. But, like, these are kind of like, here and there, you know, like, it wasn't like, hey, you're going to constantly come to me for mom's stuff, you
- [04:33]
Jane Marie
know, but then it's an advice column, and you get to talk about all of it.
- [04:36]
Jamila Lemieux
Yeah. You know, and I get to solve other people's problems. And so I just didn't want that to be my brand. I felt like if I wrote a book about single motherhood, I would be a single mother forever, you know, and, like, even though I had gotten to a place of mostly Being at peace with being a single mother, I didn't. I do not wish to be one forever. Because I'd also kind of gotten to a point where I was like, well, you know, I might be a single mother for life. You know, like, in the past was like, no, no, I must solve this. I must fix this. I must have another baby. You know, And I kind of got into a place where I was like, well, I mean, it's not what I want forever, but if this is what I have, this isn't a bad life.
- [05:19]
Jane Marie
So what's the thesis of your book?
- [05:21]
Jamila Lemieux
That black single mothers have often been scapegoated and maligned and identified as a major source of the black community's problems and that that is categorically form false and that we collectively as a nation should celebrate black single mothers for their labor and their contributions to society and support them and ensure that they have their, you know, emotional and material needs met so that they can adequately support their children.
- [05:54]
Jane Marie
Is that all?
- [05:55]
Jamila Lemieux
That's it. Very simple.
- [05:59]
Jane Marie
No, I think you're right. And you said, like, it's seen as a major source of problems, like, black single moms get the finger pointed at them.
- [06:08]
Jamila Lemieux
Absolutely.
- [06:09]
Jane Marie
Whereas white single moms are often lauded in popular culture.
- [06:14]
Jamila Lemieux
Yes. But I will say, from what I see online and the manosphere, that, you know, single mom. I'm more clear than ever that single moms of all races, you know, are treated. Are not treated with the respect they deserve. And, you know, we're in a patriarchy, so women are judged based on their relationships to a man. No man claims you. You know, you don't belong to a man, so something is wrong with you. You know, like, I think about porn, right? Lonely, desperate single moms are waiting for you. You know, I'm just like, I don't know any woman who's anything like that. I've never known a lonely, desperate single mom who, you know, like. Who. Who is, like, the closest, probably would have been me. And I, still at my lowest, was not lonely and desperate.
- [07:02]
Jane Marie
Did you intend to become a.
- [07:06]
Jamila Lemieux
So, yes and no. But yes. My boyfriend and I had broken up. We were seeing each other, but seeing other people. We were trying to figure out which way to go. And during that time, I fall more deeply in love. I decide that this is all I want. And so he ends things for good. And two weeks later, I find out I'm pregnant. So I'm like, this is our sign from God. You know, like, I had always been very responsible about, you know, either birth control or Condoms or a plan B. And this was like the only time in my life I had completely thrown caution to the wind. And I had taken like 10 pregnancy tests and they were all negative for weeks. And I just thought, this is it, like we're supposed to be together, you know, and like, I had been the one who had initiated the first breakup. Like, I was the one who wanted to kind of see what else was out there. And, you know, and he was like, if we get back together, it has to happen organically. It's not going to be because we're expecting a child, you know, and I will be your co parent, I will be your friend. And that's not what I wanted. I wanted to get back together. So I had a very difficult pregnancy. I was very sad, you know, he went with me to doctor's appointments, we went to therapy, you know, so hard.
- [08:24]
Jane Marie
I'm sorry. It's just like, as you're pining.
- [08:28]
Jamila Lemieux
Yeah, as I'm pining, you know, like, he wouldn't touch me. And, you know, during the court, he fell in love with someone else and moved on very quickly. So I won't, you know, spoil the book, but, you know, we did not reconcile. And so I've been co parenting my daughter's entire life.
- [08:48]
Jane Marie
Yeah. And how does that feel now?
- [08:51]
Jamila Lemieux
It feels great.
- [08:52]
Jane Marie
Yeah.
- [08:53]
Jamila Lemieux
You know.
- [08:54]
Jane Marie
When did you turn that corner?
- [08:55]
Jamila Lemieux
Oh, I mean, it's been a long time, you know, and I did go into it knowing this single motherhood was very possible. Even though I believed that he was going to do the right thing. He was going to marry me, you know, he's going to make me an honest woman. He's such a good guy, you know, but, like, I regretted the, the issues that I'd created in our relationship that led him to not want to be with me. So I felt like this is my fault, you know, like, if I had been a better girlfriend, if I had been a better partner, you know, we might have ended up together. So, yeah, I had to deal with responsibility for that. And on the outside, you know. Well, you know, when a man leaves a woman, we often assume the worst of the man. And that wasn't the case. You know what? Was there something that he did that was very hurtful? Absolutely. But broadly speaking, I was the villain in the relationship in a lot of ways. I also believed for a long time that I needed to hurry up and find a new man so I could erase the Scarlet Baby Mama off my chest, you know, So I didn't necessarily think I'd find somebody like, right away, but just kind of like, you know, within the next few years. And so I dated. And if I'm being honest, like, I may have believed that the right thing would have been for me to settle down with somebody, but that's not how I dated. You know what I mean? Like, I did entertain guys that were just fun. I did, you know, date somebody who was wonderful but significantly younger and not prepared to step into our family in that way. You know, Like, I didn't really date. Like, I was trying to hurry up and get married. One thing I want to refute, and this is kind of like a mini book within a book, there's a chapter about the relationship between black women and black men. And there's this very pervasive notion that exists about, I would argue, among many people, not just black people, but many groups of people, that black men are so much more disenfranchised than black women, that they are just, you know, they have it worse than anybody in society and that nobody's more downtrodden than them, you know, and oftentimes the men who parrot that kind of ideology, a Dave Chappelle, for example, they're talking about CIS het black men exclusively, you know, so everybody else.
- [11:27]
Jane Marie
And they're talking about the litmus test being prison.
- [11:31]
Jamila Lemieux
Right, Right.
- [11:32]
Jane Marie
Which is like, okay, that's only one.
- [11:34]
Jamila Lemieux
That's one fast. That's one measure of life. You know, like, we only found out in the past seven years that there's a black maternal mortality crisis that's been going on for a very long time. This only became public knowledge to even those of us who care about these things in recent years. Right. And so it's like, I want to point out that, like, the measures of life that are used to talk about the apply to black men and boys. If you look at those same measures of life, Black women and girls are suffering, too. You know, they may not be identical rates, but there's also ways in which that we are, you know, suffering that they're not, you know, enduring at the same level because they're not subject to, you know, patriarchy impacts them differently. Right. And for some of them, it provides an upper hand and it allows them to be oppressive to the women and girls around them, you know, regardless of what race those women and girls are. My theory is that because of what black men and boys in this country have endured, and we think of Emmett Till and Trayvon Martin and these people who were harmed, who were murdered, who, you know, are incarcerated for reasons that they shouldn't be Incarcerated for that. It's created this level of protectiveness. Protectiveness over black men and boys that sometimes prevents us from holding them accountable. Oh yeah, I think that stands for most marginalized groups and their men. You know, there's no group of women who can say, well, our men, you know, only celebrate us and uphold us and protect us. And I haven't heard that in not any group of women in this country.
- [13:08]
Jane Marie
No, I don't. I haven't heard it anywhere. Really?
- [13:11]
Jamila Lemieux
No.
- [13:12]
Jane Marie
Why do they suck so bad? But it's like I've had these conversations with all the men in my life, you know, and I know why they suck.
- [13:21]
Jamila Lemieux
Yeah.
- [13:21]
Jane Marie
Like, but do you ever get resentful that you have to do the work of the parenting by yourself?
- [13:28]
Jamila Lemieux
I want to be clear. I'm very. And part of the reason I included so many other mothers. Voices in.
- [13:32]
Jane Marie
Because you're lucky.
- [13:33]
Jamila Lemieux
It's because I'm very fortunate. I have a very comfortable co parenting situation. We divide Naima's time 50. Wow. So, you know, it wasn't like that before we moved to la. She was generally there twice a week and with me five days a week. But I would travel for work and I'd have events and so, you know, then she'd be there three days and she'd be there four days, you know, so. No, I'm not, I. I don't know if resentful is the word, but I have at times felt very tired of adulting alone, you know, like being completely. It wasn't just about. I'm not completely responsible for Naima by myself. I've been completely responsible for me by myself, you know, like, I don't have an emergency contact, you know what I mean? Like, I need somebody to help me. Like, this is a household, you know, so the child is being attended to, you know, it's not necessarily about needing help with her. But yeah, there have been times where like, you know, she's with me and I have a migraine and she's hungry, you know, like, I don't call her dad and say, come get her.
- [14:34]
Jane Marie
Right.
- [14:34]
Jamila Lemieux
You know what I mean? Like, it can be difficult, but you know, again, I am very privileged in that regard.
- [14:40]
Jane Marie
Are you having that, I think, fairly universal experience of like reparenting yourself through the way you parent your kid? You know what I'm like trying to fix that generational trauma. By the way, I parent my daughter and show her you can take a day off if you don't feel well, you know, like model that for her.
- [14:59]
Jamila Lemieux
Yeah, absolutely. You Know, my mother was very all sacrificing in so many ways and I have not been. And I've been intentional about that and I've let my daughter see that, you know, and I've made it very clear to her that she is the center of my universe. She's the most important person in my life. But I am an important person too, you know, and I have friends and I date and I, you know, have a career and other things that matter to me. And so she gets to watch me prioritize those things and make them, you know, make space for them too. But while also, you know, being gentle with myself and like being honest about the fact that I make mistakes. You know, I apologize to her and my parents apologize to me from time to time. But I definitely, you know, I'm very intentional about like letting her see me as a complicated human being and not some infallible superwoman. I'm so disgusted with like the spectrum of active that fathers are allowed to exist on and claim and claim, you know, and identify as active dads. Like, I've met some, so many fathers, particularly while dating, you know, who live on the other side of the country from their children and never for some life changing reason, you know, never, like, well, if I do this, I can put you through college no problem. You know what I mean? It's never that. It's never this is going to improve. There was this guy once, we met on a dating app and we never ended up going out but we were on the first phone and he was living. God, he was living in Vegas at the time. I live in la, but I think he like came out here regularly. Right. And so he mentioned that, you know, I asked why and he mentioned something about like, I asked him why he moved to Vegas. He said he moved for a relationship, you know, okay, that, that hadn't worked out and he'd found a job out there and he wanted to stay. And I said, okay, well what brings you, you know, back to la? He said, I have family in la. I said, well, what family do you have? And he mentioned, he was like, oh, you know, my siblings. And he names a few other people and he' My kids are in la. And I said, your, your kids live in LA and you live in Vegas? And he said, yeah. And I said, why did you leave your kids? And he got so offended. He goes into this whole, I didn't leave my kids, I'm. My kids always know where I am. I said, I'm sorry, let me restate my question. Why did you move to a state where your children don't live for a romantic relationship with somebody with whom you have no children?
- [17:36]
Jane Marie
Well, did he have an answer for you?
- [17:38]
Jamila Lemieux
You know, I was going through some issues with my mental health. My father had just passed, and I'm like, so you ain't. You can't have a dad. Nobody can have a dad.
- [17:45]
Jane Marie
Yeah. Also, like, we all have mental. What are you talking about? Someone still has to get up and feed this kid.
- [17:51]
Jamila Lemieux
It blows my mind the way that, you know, like, I've known guys who, you know, they're out here pursuing their, you know, maybe their kids in the same town, but they're pursuing their dreams. And so they're not very activ. They're not really paying child support, you know, and they talk about like, you know, I'm trying to be the type of parent my kid deserves. And I'm like, you're pursuing comedy.
- [18:19]
Jane Marie
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- [19:29]
Jamila Lemieux
Good news.
- [19:30]
Jane Marie
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- [20:30]
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- [21:57]
Capital One Advertiser
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- [22:30]
Jane Marie
Do you think there's gonna be a backlash to your book?
- [22:33]
Jamila Lemieux
Oh, 100%.
- [22:35]
Jane Marie
Tell me about that. What do you imagine?
- [22:37]
Jamila Lemieux
I mean, I've been dealing with rights activists. Yeah. I've been dealing with backlash from, you know, men who don't believe in feminism for my whole career.
- [22:46]
Jane Marie
Right.
- [22:47]
Jamila Lemieux
And there's a group of men that are very anti black women. And I talk about, I named them in their book. In the book, you know, so I'm sure once it hits their radar, they're going to, you know, because they have this movement that I won't cite. But you know, this.
- [23:00]
Jane Marie
Tell me just off the record.
- [23:02]
Jamila Lemieux
Off the record, it's this. But I'm used to it, you know, I've. I've dealt with a lot of vitriol and what's funny, because there are a lot of men online who hate me. They just hate me. You know, they've hated me for a long time. They might not even know why, you know, because somebody they follow or respect told them to hate me. And the origin of all this was like talking about like Bill Cosby and R. Kelly, you know, that's where it all start. That's when the like, ooh, you're one of those, you know, and you're like,
- [23:34]
Jane Marie
this is like not even debatable, guys.
- [23:35]
Jamila Lemieux
This is like so low hanging fruit.
- [23:38]
Jane Marie
Yeah.
- [23:38]
Jamila Lemieux
Like, you really, you think that I hate men? You should hear, you know, what I'm holding back on.
- [23:50]
Jane Marie
I mean, it's also, I think that a lot of the way people perceive something like your book or in some of the more personal memoir stuff I've done is like I'm proselytizing or like I'm trying to convince other people that this is the way. But I don't. It's like that sensitivity that comes out in men. They're really sensitive and emotional about that sort of thing.
- [24:10]
Jamila Lemieux
And again, there's just this idea that there's one right way to do things, you know, and if you deviate from that, you're. If you deviate from that and talk about it openly, you know, I'm sure people are gonna accus of promoting baby mamahood, promoting single motherhood, and In a way I like, I kind of am, you know, and that's.
- [24:27]
Jane Marie
Look, if it's gonna be an outcome regardless of what we do.
- [24:32]
Jamila Lemieux
Right.
- [24:34]
Jane Marie
Why not try to turn it into like a virtue or something, you know? Cause like, yeah, I think it's helpful to tell a story about it not being that bad. Yeah.
- [24:42]
Jamila Lemieux
And I think if we're being honest, there are more married single mothers than not. You know, there are more mothers that, you know are going to work every day and still responsible for the lion's share of the house care and the food and the child care. So, you know, they say single moms, on average, we do like 7 hours less house housekeeping per week compared to married moms because we're not also taking care of a man.
- [25:10]
Jane Marie
Right?
- [25:11]
Capital One Advertiser
Yeah.
- [25:12]
Jane Marie
And I love that for me.
- [25:14]
Jamila Lemieux
Yeah. And you love that, love that part.
- [25:16]
Jane Marie
Yeah. What are you hoping your daughter gets out of the. Also, what if you had a boy?
- [25:24]
Jamila Lemieux
You know, it's crazy. I wanted a boy so bad. I think in part one, I don't know why. I always have been a girl's girl, a very girly girl. I don't know why it got it in me that I wanted a son. I think part of it was I, I believed that if I'd had a son, Naima's father would have married me. You know, he would have said he would have wanted to be in the house and I think a more likely outcome would have been maybe him fighting for a bigger share of custody. But yeah, I mean, it would have been a totally different experience. Like, I'm very aware, like we're a girl, we're light skinned black girls, I'm middle class presenting college trained professional. You know, we're wearing matching pink dresses and going on red carpets and doing things like that in your little like
- [26:08]
Jane Marie
Chanel get ups the other day.
- [26:09]
Jamila Lemieux
That was not Chanel, but thank you
- [26:12]
Jane Marie
or whatever.
- [26:14]
Jamila Lemieux
But you know, the way we show up in the world, I, I'm very confident that I've been received more warmly by a lot of people because I was showing up with a little girl. You know, as a, you know, even with my child having an active dad, still this idea that you have to deal with this little boy, um, yeah, I definitely think that I've had an easier walk with a girl, wouldn't you agree?
- [26:35]
Jane Marie
I mean, oh, the minute I found out she was a girl, I didn't want to know. Yeah. But then my anatomy scan was on my birthday and I thought, oh, I'll give myself this for my birthday. And I Thought it was having a boy. And I had planned for, like, I just knew it.
- [26:48]
Jamila Lemieux
It was a boy.
- [26:49]
Jane Marie
I don't know why. And I didn't really necessarily want a boy more than a girl, but I just was convinced. And then they said, it's a girl. And I was like, thank God. Like, it washed over me so quickly how much easier it was gonna be, just. Just the gross stuff being out of the way, you know, and also, like, the toxic masculinity thing that I would have to be constantly fighting. Like, I'm still fighting it through my daughter. Like, I'm helping her understand that she can kick everyone in the nuts, you know, and that men are creepy and they will murder you. Like, I need to tell her that every day. But that's easier for me to say than to, like, somehow train that out of a boy. A boy. Especially a white boy.
- [27:37]
Jamila Lemieux
Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. I do. Like, I do the parenting advice column for Slate, and we got a letter. It might have been a troll letter. I'm not gonna lie. I have fallen for a few of those. But, like, a 12 year old had played a nasty prank on a little girl. And, like, two boys, like, filled up a condom with water and put it outside of a girl's house or something, you know? And so the husband was writing in because the mother. Mom. Felt like the boy needed to be, like, on punishment for, like, a very long punishment. Like, no phone for like, six months or a year or something. And, like, therapy so he wouldn't turn into a misogynistic creep.
- [28:16]
Jane Marie
Yeah.
- [28:16]
Jamila Lemieux
And I said, I think all little boys need therapy so they don't turn into a misogynistic creep. And yours has already crossed the line enforcing sexual humor upon a little girl.
- [28:28]
Jane Marie
Right.
- [28:28]
Jamila Lemieux
So. Yeah. And there are people that were like, I can't believe somebody would say something like that. All boys need therapy. Like, how could they let someone like you.
- [28:36]
Jane Marie
How did they turn out like that? I'm sorry, you can't force your husband to go to therapy. No, but you are the boss of your children.
- [28:42]
Jamila Lemieux
Boss the kid.
- [28:44]
Jane Marie
Take him to therapy, dude. Like, that's not funny.
- [28:46]
Jamila Lemieux
No, that's not funny. It's weird.
- [28:48]
Jane Marie
I used to have to go to bat for my kid all the time in, like, the most progressive schools. But the number of meetings I had to have where it's like, she came home complaining that the boys wouldn't let her play soccer. The boys won't let her do this. The boys won't let her do. Oh, at our school. Yeah. You know what? And the dads, when I was in their company, watching them, how they let their boys interact with my daughter. Like, boys will be boys.
- [29:11]
Jamila Lemieux
Yeah.
- [29:11]
Jane Marie
I'm like, in this 2016 or whatever, 2017, this is when she started school, you know, like.
- [29:19]
Jamila Lemieux
No, it's crazy.
- [29:20]
Jane Marie
No. Why are you saying that?
- [29:23]
Jamila Lemieux
Like, I was talking to somebody the other day about, like, just how mean the boys were when we were kids, you know, and just some of the awful things they said to me that nobody addressed, that nobody took seriously. And I just refused to let that. I remember a boy who Naima was friends with. He'd been to her birthday party or whatever, so I vaguely kind of knew his parents. He hit her. And I don't think they made a big deal out of it at school, you know, I think they kind of, like, admonished him and moved on. And so I got his. I had Naima, Naima's little best friend. And this boy liked each other, so they had each other's phone numbers. So I had the best friend give you the number, get the boy's mother's number, you know, like, act like you're going to invite him to a party or something. And I called his mom and I waited for her at the school and we talked, you know, we talked to the two of them about what had happened, you know, and like, she was really glad that I had let her know, you know, and that we took it seriously. Because, like, I'm sorry, no boy is gonna be. Nobody's gonna hit my daughter and get away with it, period.
- [30:20]
Jane Marie
So I think that that is another pitch for single motherhood, honestly, is like being able to kind of come cut the fat and get to the root of the issue. And I'm sorry to call men cutting the fat, but when there is that masculine presence in the parenting thing, you can get intimidated out of doing what you know is best for your kid because it's gonna make some man uncomfortable. They strike fear into us, basically.
- [30:49]
Jamila Lemieux
They do.
- [30:49]
Jane Marie
Like making that call and having that mother meet up. I could imagine if I was married, a man being like, you're being too dramatic or, don't make a deal out of this. Yeah, like, she should be able to take care of herself. And let's not, you know, drag other people into it. So it gives you some agency in that regard.
- [31:06]
Jamila Lemieux
But it's interesting, you know? Cause I think about when I was in 8th grade, my girlfriends and I had a little girl gang at school called the Bad Girl Mafia. We were inspired in part by little girl.
- [31:17]
Jane Marie
We were the disco Bitches.
- [31:20]
Jamila Lemieux
And so. And what's funny, we all had a bitch name. I was the queen bitch. There was a princess bitch. Everybody had a bitch name except for my one friend who refused to be called a bitch. So she was ip, the international player, okay? And so we had a notebook that we pass around and take notes in, you know, pass each other notes in all day. And we did some graffiti on the bathroom wall. That was our only gang activity other than that we were all in the gifted class. Very good girls, you know. And so we graffiti up the bathroom. And it's this, like, big scandal at the school. And there's this huge thing. And so they, the guidance counsel and the principal call a meeting with all the mothers, right? Everyone's mother. And not the dads, not the dads. And they announced that they are going to suspend us all for three days for gang activity. And the room breaks into chaos. One mom is like tearing up her daughter's confession letter. Like, it's just like. And so my mom steps out and calls my dad, who at the time was a police detective. And so he shows up to the school and he very calmly explains to the principal that suspending, you know, a group of five or six little black girls who, you know, we were. Most of us were on our way to. We were at a magnet school. We were on our way to magnet high schools and, you know, programs the next year. Putting three day. Putting a three day suspension for gang activity on our permanent record was so irresponsible and unnecessary and such an outsized reaction to what we had done. And we had cleaned it up. They'd asked us to clean it up. We cleaned it up. And so they reduced it to one day for inappropriate behavior. Okay, so like.
- [32:56]
Jane Marie
But wait, your dad had to step in to make that happen.
- [32:59]
Jamila Lemieux
Step in and make that happen, you know, because he. Because it was. It was a man making the decision. Right? You know what I mean? And so he respect. He listened to another man, you know, And I think any of those other moms in that room, like one of them was a school principal herself, you know, like, I think they would have been able to come up with the same thing, but he didn't respect it coming from them. So it's just. It's frustrating to me. There's this stigma about black single mothers that I am judged by. But I think also because there's so many of us that in our individual interactions, I don't know that people are necessarily always projecting. You must be a loser, you must be a failure. I Don't think there's any easy form of motherhood. Obviously there's no guaranteed path to happiness via motherhood. I think if you want to be a mother, have a child, you know, I thoroughly enjoy being a single mother. You know, like, it was obviously much more challenging when she was an infant. You know, like that's a very difficult stage to, you know, navigate. But I will say this, like, Naima was such an easy baby, you know, like I didn't get up a lot for feedings. You know, like she slept through the night. Like she was such an easy baby. Like Naima didn't get tough until she was like 10. You know, that's when the challenges started. So, yeah, I think, you know, for. There's one mom I talked to in the book who I think a number of us, if we were being honest with ourselves, we knew that we were going to be single moms from the moment we found out we were pretty, you know, we just were, we just arrived at, at that truth at different times. Right. In our children's lives. But, but there, there's one mom I talked to who did ivi, you know, at 42 and you know, she, she chose it. There's no co parent. There's, you know, and she's happy. You know, that's just been the experience of anyone I've ever spoken to who chosen to be a single mom from Brett.
- [35:02]
Jane Marie
There's a couple of studies that back up the idea that mothers who choose single motherhood from the beginning.
- [35:10]
Jamila Lemieux
Yeah.
- [35:11]
Jane Marie
Make the happiest people.
- [35:13]
Jamila Lemieux
I totally can believe that. Yeah, I totally can believe that. Because, you know, again, like, you chose this, right. So you're not, even when it's hard, you're not sitting there like someone left me or I had to leave this person. You don't have a conflict with someone. Yeah, no, I've told people that I don't necessarily think single parenting is the only route. I think we need to start talking about alternative paths to parenting.
- [35:39]
Jane Marie
I think the mommy.
- [35:40]
Jamila Lemieux
Yes, the mommy. Yes. I think we need, you know, as somebody, one of the moms who I interview in the book, Tameka Anderson, we were pregnant at the same time and she asked me if we'd. If I'd consider getting an apartment with her so we could support each other. And I was such a pick me at that time. Like, I just couldn't fathom like wanting to entertain a man and then there's another mom and baby in the house. But yeah, I want to see more like I want to see platonic friends raising children together across combinations of genders. You know, there's a gay guy I know who his best friend is a lesbian and they, I can't remember if she carried the baby or if they adopted, but they've been co parenting a child together for 12 or 13 years very happily.
- [36:24]
Jane Marie
Look, the evidence is in.
- [36:27]
Jamila Lemieux
Yeah.
- [36:28]
Jane Marie
That the marriage version of a family is not necessarily very healthy for anybody until we crush the patriarchy, you know. But at the moment, like the longer I can protect my daughter from.
- [36:46]
Jamila Lemieux
Absolutely.
- [36:46]
Jane Marie
Like the daily influence.
- [36:48]
Jamila Lemieux
Absolutely.
- [36:48]
Jane Marie
Which just by default is like just what men are, you know, Where can people find you?
- [36:58]
Jamila Lemieux
So I do have a website, Jamila lemieux.com but I am very active on threads and Instagram at Jamila Lemieux, just go to my social media and the Random House website also has a link to all my upcoming events as well.
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Jamila Lemieux
You too.
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