Is Everything More Racist Right Now?

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Dream – "Is Everything More Racist Right Now?"
Host: The Dream (Little Everywhere)
Guest: W. Kamau Bell
Release Date: June 6, 2026

---

Episode Overview

This episode of The Dream revisits a conversation between the host (unnamed, white) and renowned comedian, documentarian, and social commentator W. Kamau Bell. The conversation, originally recorded in 2025, explores the pressing question: Is everything more racist right now? Together, they interrogate recent shifts in American public discourse, personal experiences of racism and microaggressions, how generational attitudes have (or have not) changed, and the ongoing patterns of systemic white supremacy that underpin the "American Dream."

The discussion is candid, deeply personal, occasionally humorous, and rooted in current events, offering both historical analysis and sharp contemporary commentary.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Framing the Question: Is Everything “More Racist” Now?

• Host’s Perspective: The host notes increased controversy around labeling things “racist,” despite understanding America’s foundations—built on slavery—and the continuous papering-over of systemic harms (03:07–04:52).
  • “That seems like common sense to me. ... We’re just gonna keep changing things on paper, but, like, we’re not actually ever gonna address the real problem.” (03:47)
• Kamau’s Take: Kamau frames racism as a persistent undercurrent rather than a variable, stating: “If a Black person…called [microaggressions] out all the time, we would never talk about anything else. ... Racist things happen to me all the time that I don’t tell anybody about because it would just be…psychologically exhausting.” (05:33–06:12)

---

2. Living in America’s Racial Reality

Intersectionality, Visibility, and Navigating Spaces

• Kamau’s Daily Calculus: Kamau recounts feeling hyper-aware of his physical presence as a tall Black man and celebrity—never knowing if public reactions are about his fame or his race (07:02–10:05).
  • “Everywhere I walk through the world, I’m aware. ... Most people don’t do that [calculus], because if they did, we would be able to have an easier conversation in this country about race and racism.” (10:05)

Microaggression Example

• Kamau shares a fresh example of possibly making a woman uncomfortable at a coffee shop just by looking her way, illustrating how perceptions intersect along lines of gender, race, and size (06:18–07:52).

The Role of Intersectionality

• Kamau references Kimberlé Crenshaw’s “intersectionality,” noting that his identity as “big Black man” carries its own unique cultural coding and risk (08:57).

---

3. Media, Current Events, and Racism’s Visibility

News Dissection Exercise

• The host pulls headlines from the New York Times:
  • Harvard’s legal battles (racism in education and funding, 10:08)
  • Florida’s vaccine mandate rollbacks using a Black immigrant doctor as policy cover (10:36)
  • National Guard threats targeting cities with large Black populations (11:14–11:28)
  • All tied back by Kamau to structural racism and white supremacy (“all the data’s in,” 17:12).
• Kamau asserts that recent years have seen less pretense and a resurgence of public, unapologetic white supremacy: “We’re being encouraged to get further and further away from reality.” (11:41)

---

4. What’s Actually Changed? Generational and Structural Analysis

The Post–Civil Rights Era and the Illusion of Progress (15:07–17:23)

• Kamau: “The generation that we grew up in was the first generation of Black people where you could actually kind of become a doctor, ... but then you realize there’s a ceiling here. ... The wealth accumulates [for white people] and gets bigger.” (15:07–15:58)
• The idea that Black success stories (Oprah, LeBron, Jay-Z) are exceptions, not systemic change.

On Racial Wealth and Environmental Racism

• “If you give me your zip code, I’ll tell you how long you’re gonna live.”
  Kamau references environmental racism—the legacy of Black and brown communities living on low-value, hazardous land—pointing out how race still dictates life outcomes. (15:58)

---

5. Shifts in Public Discourse and Trump’s Role

• Kamau theorizes that post–MLK’s assassination, white racists became quiet out of social pressure, but not less racist (18:53–20:29):
  • “They just got quiet and they got shamed and they got quiet for years…Then Trump came down that escalator and said, nope, we can still be racist in public.”
• Host observes that before Trump, overt (esp. verbal) racism was off-the-record, even among insular groups (like the Amish) – now it’s often proudly on tape (20:29–21:27).

---

6. The Plague of the White Moderate & Liberal

• Kamau reads a lengthy, resonant Martin Luther King Jr. quote (Letter from Birmingham Jail, 1963), critiquing the white moderate “more devoted to order than to justice,” and likening this figure to today’s white liberals who disavow MAGA but aren’t true allies (22:33–23:53).

  "Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection." (23:48)

---

7. Why Does Racism Feel “Cool” or Ascendant?

• Kamau: The problem of racism has “metastasized.” Trump has emboldened public white supremacy, and even policies that undercut America’s own interests (like expelling international students) are justified through racist anti-immigrant logic (26:24–28:32).
  • “We all thought America was always in the act of getting better. ... I think we were wrong.” (27:11)
  • Warns that history shows even dominant empires can fade if they refuse to adapt and include others.

---

8. Respectability Politics & There’s No "Success" Your Way Out

• Kamau dismisses the idea that Black success can insulate from racism:
  • Recounts Oprah being denied service at Hermès as the “end of respectability politics” (29:59–31:54).
  • “No matter how successful a Black person is, it cannot stop the state from coming after them.”
  • Reflection that even creating wealth or achieving status doesn’t break the fundamental logics of systemic racism.

---

9. “Who’s With Me?”: Clarity & Choosing Sides

• Kamau, now writing weekly on Substack and launching a new show ("Who’s With Me?"), expresses the need to be absolutely clear about where he stands:
  • “The least I can do is be clear, especially at a time where some people are acting like things are either already back to normal, or they’re gonna go back to normal, or this is gonna be fine.” (31:54–32:22)

---

10. Memorable Closing Moments

• Kamau jokes about his ability to “speak Karen” due to family ties, and the surreal experience of being cast in all the “racism situations” for TV (“What Would You Do?”) instead of mundane “found $5” ones (33:07–34:26).
• Shares a vulnerable story about prepping his fair-skinned child before airport security, evidencing the real-life vigilance Black families still have to exercise (33:52–34:26).

---

Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• On systemic racism’s persistence:

  "If you give me your zip code, I'll tell you how long you're gonna live." — W. Kamau Bell (15:58)

• On “the problem with the white moderate”:

  “Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.” — (Martin Luther King Jr., read by Kamau, 23:48)

• On the illusion of progress:

  “We all thought America was always in the act of getting better. ... I think we were wrong.” — W. Kamau Bell (27:11)

• On speaking up:

  “The least I can do is be clear, especially at a time when some people are acting like everything will go back to normal.” — W. Kamau Bell (32:02)

• On airport vigilance:

  “When we go through security... I’m always like, ‘Look, this is the most serious you’ll ever see your dad. Let's run through all the questions.’” — W. Kamau Bell (33:52)

---

Major Timestamps

• [02:07] – Kamau on podcasting & microaggressions
• [06:18] – Kamau’s coffee shop anecdote & intersectionality
• [10:08–11:41] – News punditry: race in headlines and public policy
• [15:07–17:23] – The post–Civil Rights generation and Black “progress”
• [18:53–20:29] – The Trump era and resurgence of explicit racism
• [22:33] – Reading and reflecting on MLK’s critique of white moderates
• [26:24–28:32] – Has the problem metastasized? Racism’s new “cool”
• [29:59–31:54] – Respectability politics and the impossibility of “success” as protection
• [32:48–33:52] – Closing banter and preparing children for bias in daily life

---

Conclusion

This episode offers a sobering, clear-eyed examination of racism in present-day America—how both overt and covert forms have evolved, why recent years feel uniquely fraught, and the necessity of relentless, honest conversation. Kamau and the host emphasize the dangers of complacency, the insidiousness of “well-meaning” moderation, and the vital need to face uncomfortable truths in order to move forward.

Listeners are left with both a sharper historical context and practical examples of how systemic racism persists, and a sense of urgency: clarity and solidarity are more essential now than ever.

Transcript

[Grow Therapy Announcer]

The pressure to have a summer worth posting about is real. So is financial stress, social exhaustion, and the anxiety that sneaks in right when things are supposed to feel good. Grow Therapy can help with that. Whether it's your first time in therapy or your 50th, grow makes it easier to find a therapist who fits you, not the other way around. They connect you with thousands of independent licensed therapists across the US offering both virtual and in person sessions, nights and weekends. Whatever challenges challenges you're facing, Grow Therapy is here to help. Grow accepts over 100 insurance plans. Sessions average about $21 with insurance and some pay as little as $0 depending on their plan. Visit growththerapy.com acast today to get started. That's growththerapy.com acast growtherapy.com acast availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan.

[Optum Announcer]

Healthcare can feel complicated. That's why Optum uses technology to connect the people and processes that make healthcare easier, more affordable, and more effective. We're making it clearer for you to know exactly what your benefits cover and to help you better manage your health. We're coordinating care between your doctors and your technology. We believe better, simpler health care is always possible. That's healthy optimism. That's Optum. Visit optum.com to learn more.

[Host (likely a white interviewer)]

Hi everyone.

[Host (off-air or intro/outro speaker)]

I'm off for another week here because my little brother died and I can't think. I really can't think. My brain doesn't work right now. So while we wait for my brain to come back online, I'm gonna replay an episode from last year where I spoke to to W. Kamau Bell, a

[Host (likely a white interviewer)]

friend of the show. He has a new show that just

[Host (off-air or intro/outro speaker)]

launched called who's With Me?

[Host (likely a white interviewer)]

So go check that out.

[Host (off-air or intro/outro speaker)]

We'll put a link in the show notes. And for now, here's my conversation with Kamau from last year about Is Everything Racist?

[W. Kamau Bell]

This is my favorite form of podcasting.

[Host (likely a white interviewer)]

Really? Just chatting.

[W. Kamau Bell]

Yeah, chatting. Too many podcasts now are like, okay, before you come on, make a list of your 19 least favorite. There's too much going on in the world. I can't do that.

[Host (likely a white interviewer)]

Okay, so I put out a threads post a couple days ago asking if anyone wants to come on this podcast and talk about how everything is racism. I posted it because I don't feel like that's a controversial opinion. Like I don't. I grew up in a small town in the middle of Michigan, mostly white town, but even I knew like slavery actually happened. That like our economy as like the American dream was built on, let's see you wouldn't have clothing, cigarettes, food, railroads.

[Optum Announcer]

I could keep.

[Host (likely a white interviewer)]

There's a lot of things that made prosperity the brand of America. Right. That were built on slave labor. And the reason that they were that they look really good from the outside, like, everybody's rich. It's like. Cause they don't pay labor. They don't pay for labor. Like, there's no labor costs in anything. So anyway, that seems like common sense to me. And then the fact that I was born a mere 13 years after the Civil Rights Act. Thirteen, like, children were still children, you know, when I was a child who had been alive for that, who had

[W. Kamau Bell]

had police stopping them from going into their schools.

[Host (likely a white interviewer)]

Yeah, yeah. And been murdered and all kinds of horrible things. And then someone signs a new piece of paper. And there was one, you know, 100 years prior to that. The fact that that happened once, then it happened with Jim Crow, then we said, okay, we're just gonna keep changing things on paper, but, like, we're not actually ever gonna address the real problem. So I just have that as a basic understanding of what America is. Right. And I keep looking at news or hearing people talk or being part of, like, a public discourse where I'm like, is it new that everyone's changed their mind about that? Why is it controversial all of a sudden? It wasn't even in the Reagan era. I didn't think. I mean, I know the war on drugs was, like, incredibly racist, and there was always racism, but you could say that there was racism. Why? What happened? That's what I want to talk about.

[W. Kamau Bell]

My name is W. Kamau Bell. I am a standup comedian, documentary director, producer, author, writer, dad, and husband, but not in that order.

[Host (likely a white interviewer)]

Big whoops.

[W. Kamau Bell]

Yeah, I didn't mention the awards. I didn't mention any of the awards. Oh, celebrity jeopardy. Champion 2025. Okay, now we're done.

[Host (likely a white interviewer)]

Apologize in advance if I do any microaggressions or any racism, because I am a white person.

[W. Kamau Bell]

I mean. I mean, to be quite honest, first of all, I know you, so I have an idea of the range of where you could air. I know you well enough that I could be like, I don't know about that. Yes.

[Host (likely a white interviewer)]

Good.

[W. Kamau Bell]

And also, the honest truth is that if a black person who is aware enough of what microaggressions are, if we called him out all the time, we would never talk about anything psychologically exhausted. It would just be, like I said a long time ago that racist things happen to me all the time that I don't tell anybody about because it Would just be like. My friends would even be like, come on, get. Not that they wouldn't. Yeah, it would just be like, you know, like even. Just the way that sometimes somebody looks at me. I'm just like, oh, okay. You know, like. Or the way somebody doesn't look. I mean, so it's. Yeah. So let's go.

[Host (likely a white interviewer)]

Well, but does it. Okay, but here's the question. So you don't have to call it out every time, but does it affect you? Yeah.

[W. Kamau Bell]

Well, I'll tell you this. This happened to me today. I was sitting outside at a coffee shop, which is not a thing I do that often for various reasons.

[Host (likely a white interviewer)]

Because you're famous.

[W. Kamau Bell]

That is a big part. I'm also in my town, I'm extra famous. You're recognizable in oak. Yes, that is one of the reasons. I just don't want to sound like that guy. But let's be. Put it on the table. Because I can't just sit and read a book or work on my computer because it's like there is whatever luxury problems. But this woman was sitting across from me. Like we were on the sidewalk and she's on the other side of the sidewalk. And I looked at her and I. And shortly after I looked at her, like, I think I just like, oh, look at that person over there. She got up and like walked away. And I thought, oh, shit. Did I just like look like a dude who was staring at. You know what I mean?

[Host (likely a white interviewer)]

Like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[W. Kamau Bell]

Like, she just got up and didn't even. Didn't ever look at me, but could have seen me and could have seen me looking at her. And although I don't believe I did anything to look like a lech. But I understand, so I say I understand this side of it. Just like, I would hope people understand the racism side of it. So I might have like microaggressed on her in some way without realizing it. And she got up and left and I. And I had that moment of like, did I just. Did I look too long? You know what I mean? Is entirely too long as in the eye of the receiver. So I'm not saying that there is, but I certainly. All I say is like, I'm aware as a man, especially as a 6 foot 4, 200 and blah, blah, blah pound man, that I have to be aware of my presence in the world as a man and as a black man and how I'm putting myself out there and also how I'm. And how I am being received.

[Host (likely a white interviewer)]

You know who talks really thoughtfully about that is Dan Gallucci, who's right over there. Plus he has a lot of tattoos. So it's like, like there's, you know, there's things that add on top of just being a guy.

[W. Kamau Bell]

And I think most people, I would say most people, you know, aren't aware of all the different slices of them that are, that exist out in the world. And therefore when things happen, they respond like as if it's, they're an individual and not a part of the society's sort of like racial caste system and, and, and the gender hierarchy. And also, are you short? You know, there's, there's just all these different things. How do you dress? Do you. Because now I think it was all time when I was a kid, if you had one tattoo, you were a criminal. Now it's like you might be loaded in tattoos, but what type of tattoos? Yeah, like the sort of the fun tattoos or the scary tattoos, you know, you know, there's, there's soccer moms with full sleeves, but they're like, it's all like, you know, mermaids or something. I think that like. But I think they're not like Russian

[Host (likely a white interviewer)]

prison tattoos on a soccer mom.

[W. Kamau Bell]

Exactly. Yeah, they're not on their face, although we'll get there. But I think that for me, it's like I'm like I was as a kid when I got to be tall, which was like sophomore year of high school, I was aware suddenly I might as well have been a 35 year old man to most people. Like I was over 6ft tall. And I was aware at some point, like, oh, you know, it's sort of the bare scratching the surface of what Professor Kimberle Crenshaw sort of coined as intersectionality. My identity is as a black man, not as a black person. And as a man, it is a black man. Like that is those two things cannot be separated. And you could almost say big black man. Like you could just do like just because there's, that's a certain identity. And so therefore everywhere I walk through the world, I'm aware. And this is where the fame part comes in. Funny. Like sometimes people will look at me and the look on their face, I'm like, is that the look because you are surprised to see a famous person or are you surprised to see a big black guy? You have to do some calculus. Most people don't do that because if they did, we would be able to have an easier conversation in this country about race and racism.

[Host (likely a white interviewer)]

Let's talk about that.

[W. Kamau Bell]

Great.

[Host (likely a white interviewer)]

Let me just as an exercise I'm going to open up the front page of the New York Times right now. Okay. First breaking news article on the top of their website right now. Harvard secures a court victory in its fight with Trump. Harvard has sued Trump in an effort to restore billions of research funding. Blah, blah, blah. Right. Most of that's racism. Okay. The second thing is about vaccines. Also. We can talk about medical.

[W. Kamau Bell]

Is that the Florida thing?

[Host (off-air or intro/outro speaker)]

Yes.

[W. Kamau Bell]

Yeah. Where Ron DeSantis found a black doctor who's an immigrant from Nigeria to wipe out the vaccine mandates in Florida. So he's, like, using. This black guy is being used, and willingly so to wipe out the vaccine mandates. And so Ron DeSantis gets to, like, point at the black guy. He did it.

[Host (likely a white interviewer)]

Then just a couple stories later, it's about Laura Loomer, who is on the wrong side of everything.

[W. Kamau Bell]

Yeah, well, that's the MAGA movement, which is certainly about white supremacy.

[Host (likely a white interviewer)]

Trump considers sending National Guard to New Orleans.

[W. Kamau Bell]

When he said the list of cities he wanted to send the National Guard to or send. Send troops to, they were. Yeah, they were all cities with black mayors, first of all. Even New York. And with huge black populations.

[Host (likely a white interviewer)]

Right. And also not the most dangerous cities in America.

[W. Kamau Bell]

Also not the most dangerous cities in America because those are all in red states.

[Host (likely a white interviewer)]

So.

[W. Kamau Bell]

Yeah.

[Host (off-air or intro/outro speaker)]

Yeah.

[Host (likely a white interviewer)]

So again, that's my question. I. I mean, it's a dumb question, actually, now that we're talking about it, and I'm like, of course we're not talking about reality.

[W. Kamau Bell]

Yeah, we're not. And we're being encouraged to get further and further away from reality.

[Host (likely a white interviewer)]

No matter where you live, sun exposure is unavoidable. And with so much information out there, it can be hard to know the best way to protect your skin. Blue Lizard is here to make it easy. With just a few simple steps and many great products to help you and your family stay protected in the sun. They're even a good choice for those with sensitive skin. The coolest thing. Blue lizard caps turn blue when harmful UV rays are present. That is so helpful when I'm juggling kids and the fact that they make a spray version and a stick that my daughter can carry around in her

[Host (off-air or intro/outro speaker)]

backpack so she's never unprotected.

[Host (likely a white interviewer)]

Is awesome. And they dry clear. Help keep your sensitive skin safe from the sun's harmful rays. Blue lizard's sensitive mineral on the go. Sunscreen couldn't be easier. Go to bluelizardsunscreen.com to find out more information. Which sunscreens are right for your family and where you can buy in stor

[Host (off-air or intro/outro speaker)]

store or visit the Blue Lizard Australian

[Host (likely a white interviewer)]

sunscreen store on Amazon.

[Host (off-air or intro/outro speaker)]

Summer makes us all rethink what we're reaching for in our wardrobes. Do you want to wear a dress? T shirt and jeans, T shirt and shorts. Shorts and jeans. Wait a minute. And now I'm making up new styles. Anyway, I always turn to quints. My closet is full of their basics and their fancies. I keep coming back to them because they focus on high quality essentials. Think breathable linen, soft, organic cotton, washable silk, but without the luxury markup. Everything at Quint's is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. I just redid my entire T shirt, tank top and bodysuit wardrobe for summer so that I have layering things that I probably won't layer because it's a million degrees outside. And it's not just clothing. Quint has really become a destination for all kinds of things like coffee, bedding and kitchen stuff and all of that. Elevate your summer wardrobe. Go to quint.com thedream for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's q u I n c-e.com the dream for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com thedre

[Optum Announcer]

Healthcare can feel complicated. That's why Optum uses technology to connect the people and processes that make healthcare easier, more affordable and more effective. We're making it clearer for you to know exactly what your benefits cover and to help you better manage your health. We're coordinating care between your doctors and your technology. We believe better, simpler healthcare is always possible. That's healthy optimism. That's Optum. Visit optum.com to learn more.

[Progressive Insurance Announcer]

This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies. Try [e-mail] Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states.

[Host (likely a white interviewer)]

Is this different? Like, is this time different?

[W. Kamau Bell]

Yeah, the thing that is that is different. That different that like, if you think about the history of black people in this country, that was the, the generation that we grew up in was the first generation of black people where you actually kind of could become a doctor. It wasn't like you were the only black doctor in the neighborhood anymore. You actually like, oh no, he went to medical school and, and you could become a businessman and you could, you could like own some things. So it felt like oh, we're on our way. But then you realize there's a ceiling here. It's not going to stop America's white supremacy from, like, if a. You know, like New York Times, an article years ago about. Specifically about black boys, that black boys who are born into wealth are still going to fall. Are likely to fall out of wealth in their lifetime, which is different than white people born into wealth. The wealth accumulates and gets bigger.

[Host (likely a white interviewer)]

Yeah.

[W. Kamau Bell]

So you can't earn your way out of it. And I think that's the first time we found, like, we found this out is like, there's no sort of like, oh, I've made enough money and now I don't feel the effects of racism because the whole system is built on racism, specifically the financial system. So that racism is always going to be taking something from you. You and I remember we did an episode of United Shades about environmental racism. And Dr. Robert Bullard, who's the father of environmental racism, credited the study of environmental racism, said, if you give me your zip code, I'll tell you how long you're gonna live. So we're talking about, like, just being born into a. You know, black people tend to live. There's a thing called lulus, which are low, which are like land that is bad, that is like, next to the. That used to be on a landfill or that used to be. That is near a factory. Black people tend to. Black and brown people tend to live in those part on land that is bad, that white people would never live on. You born in a place, you're growing up with asthma, and you also. You're black. And also, you're not going to. You're not. Your life expectancy is going to be lesser. And you also have the economic pull of racism stopping you from, like, achieving what you can achieve. So I think the idea being that, like, this is why I think it's different now, because it's like, oh, it's. We are. All the data's in.

[Host (likely a white interviewer)]

Yeah.

[W. Kamau Bell]

Like, there's no. There's no, like, well, the next generation will. There's no, like, we've. We've got LeBron James as a billionaire and Oprah and Jay Z, but that doesn't mean what we thought it was going to mean.

[Host (likely a white interviewer)]

When I've argued with, like, racists in general and especially ones in my family, like the old people who really hate affirmative action and DEI initiatives and all that shit, and I'm like, I don't know why they forget how. How recently there was any sort of moving the needle on like what black people were, quote, allowed to do. But why isn't that like, solve it for me. Go solve racism. Go tell me why. Tell me why all these old white people are so racist that they can't even accept reality. Which is.

[W. Kamau Bell]

So here's the way I think about it. And I started thinking about this a few years ago. You know, Martin Luther King Jr. Was born in 1929, which means he could still be alive. He would be 96. That's not the. He's not even making the news on his birthday. I mean, he would. Because he's Martin Luther King Jr. But they don't go happy birthday to a 96 year old. They don't do that. Like he's still four years away from the Today show, caring.

[Host (likely a white interviewer)]

Right?

[W. Kamau Bell]

Which means, I think, and this is the thing I think is the great question. When he was assassinated by white supremacy and you know, by a tool of white supremacy and we were sort of the nation racists were gaslit into thinking this racism ends now. We have killed this man. Racism ends now. And then I grew up thinking somehow the assassination of Martin Luther King Jr. S was the end of racism.

[Host (likely a white interviewer)]

Wait, back up there.

[W. Kamau Bell]

That the idea that like I was, that like his assassination was so tragic that basically.

[Host (likely a white interviewer)]

Oh, you're saying it would affect people

[W. Kamau Bell]

so much that, that, that it was so tragic that we thought it had somehow healed racism and we could get to the colorblind era.

[Host (likely a white interviewer)]

I've never even heard of this before. See, that's how racist I am. Accidentally. I didn't even know that was a

[W. Kamau Bell]

thing that we thought that like, you know, he get, you know, like, and remember when he died, he was not popular, but when he died, he becomes like a saint figure. And what that when he becomes like sort of a saint in certain corners of America, what we didn't realize is that his, he didn't. People weren't healed by his death. They just got quiet and they got shamed and they got quiet for years and those. And which means there are still people alive right now who hated his fucking guts. And they had to be shamed and they had to do it behind closed doors. They had to talk about hating his guts. There are people alive right now who boycotted him and young and who are now who are still alive and also raised kids who hated his guts, but they had to be quiet about it. And then Trump came down that escalator and said, nope, we can still be racist in public. And so it's not that certain people became racist when he did that. They Were like, finally, finally, I can do this out loud again. And some young people are like, finally, I can do it the way my grandpa did it, right out loud and in public.

[Host (likely a white interviewer)]

So this is what gives me the sense that things are different. Right. And I didn't want to be wrong about that, but I'm okay if I am, you know? But I was like, I think I'm pretty right about this, that this is like a different environment. Because I remember doing reporting ahead of when Obama got elected, and there were lots of stories where one in particular, I went out to Pennsylvania to interview Amish people who were heavily against Obama. No one would say on the record or on my microphone anyway. And I was just like a baby reporter with, like, a tiny microphone, you know? And they wouldn't say that it was about race, but the minute I turned the microphone off, N word flying everywhere.

[W. Kamau Bell]

Yeah.

[Host (likely a white interviewer)]

Yes. Yeah. Among the Amish. So I. But. But because I didn't get it on tape, I couldn't make the story. That would be the story. I would. You know what I mean? Like, I couldn't.

[W. Kamau Bell]

Yeah, yeah.

[Host (likely a white interviewer)]

Tell the story and that. I feel like that's what's changed, is you would. You could get those people to say that on tape now.

[W. Kamau Bell]

Yeah. No, they. Because there's no. Because the consequences aren't severe anymore. You would. They would like, you know, like the woman who called the little black autistic boy the N word in a playground, made, like, raised money off of it. The thing I've been looking at recently is. Is the. The. My favorite Martin Luther King Jr. Quote is the. Is this passage from a letter from a Birmingham jail where he talks about, like, the plague of the white moderate. And I think now we call that maybe the. The white liberal, the white Democrat, the white. Sometimes even the white progressive of like. Because they're like, I'm not. I'm not maga, therefore, I'm. I'm okay. And black people are like, you're really not. You're really not okay. Can I read this quote from the. I just. Because I just think this is like. This is. When I. When I. When I looked it up, I was like, this is the whole thing. So this is from Martin Luther King Jr's letter from a Birmingham jail in 1963.

[Host (likely a white interviewer)]

Yes.

[W. Kamau Bell]

Like, a few months before the March on Washington.

[Host (likely a white interviewer)]

Okay.

[W. Kamau Bell]

I must confess that over the past few years, I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the white citizens counselor or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to order than to justice, who prefers a negative peace, which is the absence of tension, to a positive peace, which is the presence of justice, who constantly says, I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action, who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom, who lives by a mythical concept of time, and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a more convenient season. Shallow understanding from people of goodwill is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection. I mean, you basically just said what he said. But that's the thing that when I read this, I'm like, this is right now. This is. Nothing has changed from this. He thought he was talking about a problem to be overcome, and we're still living it right now.

[Chase Sapphire Reserve Announcer]

This is the Chase Sapphire Lounge at Boston Logan. You got clam chowder in New York, dirty martini over 1300 airport lounges, and one card that gets you in Chase Sapphire Reserve now even more rewarding.

[Progressive Insurance Announcer]

Learn [e-mail] Sapphire Reserve cards issued by JP Morgan Chase bank and a member FDIC subject to credit approval the pressure

[Grow Therapy Announcer]

to have a summer worth posting about is real. So is financial stress, social exhaustion and the anxiety that sneaks in right when things are supposed to feel good. Grow Therapy can help with that. Whether it's your first time in therapy or your 50th, grow makes it easier to find a therapist who fits you, not the other way around. They connect you with thousands of independent, licensed therapists across the US Offering both virtual and in person sessions, nights and weekends. Whatever challenges you're facing, Grow Therapy is here to help. Grow accepts over 100 insurance plans. Sessions average about $21 with insurance and some pay as little as $0 depending on their plan. Visit growththerapy.com acast today to get started. That's growththerapy.com academy acast growtherapy.com acast availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan.

[Progressive Insurance Announcer]

This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies. Try [e-mail] Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states.

[Optum Announcer]

Healthcare can feel complicated. That's why Optum uses technology to connect the people and processes that make healthcare easier, more affordable, and more effective. We're making it clearer for you to know exactly what your benefits cover and to help you better manage your health. We're coordinating care between your doctors and your technology. We believe better, simpler healthcare is always possible. That's healthy optimism. That's Optum. Visit optum.com to learn more.

[Host (likely a white interviewer)]

But then, I don't want to contradict the premise that I'm proposing here, which is things feel different right now. Right. Like, it is the same problem. But why right now, is there. Is it so almost cool, you know, to. To be racist?

[W. Kamau Bell]

I think that. I think because so many. Well, I think it is. It is. It is. It is. It does feel different because the problem has metastasized.

[Host (likely a white interviewer)]

Yeah.

[W. Kamau Bell]

Like, so the problem that he was confronting, in his mind, he was like, I'm proposing. Here's the problem, and I'm about to do the march on Washington, which hopefully will help address the problem. You know what I mean? Like, he was working for the solution, but I think if he was alive right now, he'd be like, you mean to tell me that you people haven't figured out that thing that I set forth in 1963? You haven't gotten. You've actually gotten worse. I think people in this country. Trump has allowed people, certain aspects of people to believe, to openly say that white supremacy is their birthright and that racism is justified. I think we all. And this is how I'm starting to feel, which is like, wait, here's the big. Here's the big funny closer from the comedian. I think we all thought America was always in the act of getting better. Ooh. And I think we were wrong. And I think that means that in. It's very possible. And this. And, you know, world history supports this, that we look up in 50 years or less and go, man, remember what America was like, Cool. In the same way that, like, remember the Roman Empire? Remember the British Empire? Remember Genghis Khan when he ran everything? Remember, like, I think that it's very possible that. Because especially with the fact that we're not. That we're sort of demonizing immigrants, those geniuses who helped define this country that we allowed to come here are just going to end up somewhere else. And if they all end up in the same place, then that's the new spot that everybody goes to, to sort of, like, make their dreams come true. And I don't know what that spot, but I know that it doesn't have to be here. And that's how you start to change the identity of a nation. Cuz if eventually people start to actually, if immigrants can't show up, if immigrants, like, think about this. Trump is kicking out international students who pay full freight to go to the most expensive and elite schools in the country.

[Host (likely a white interviewer)]

And where there's a totally legal visa system.

[W. Kamau Bell]

Yeah, no, where they've done all the right things and the schools want them there and the country wants them there. Because a lot of those people go, now I'm gonna start Google or ebay or like, I'm gonna start a company because I met people at this elite institution and that's gonna be an American company, even though I come from somewhere else because I'm now a citizen here or now I started the company here. And Trump is so anti, you know, immigrants and so racist that he doesn't even want the race, the race. He doesn't even want races, other races to come in when they're actually helping his own reputation. Those people will go somewhere else. And then we're going to look and be like, wow, it's weird that, that the newest, coolest invention came out of blah, blah, blah, country. And it's weird that another cool invention came out of that same country and another one and another one. And it's weird that America doesn't. Is now importing everything and doesn't manufacture anything and also doesn't even, doesn't even have cool ideas anymore.

[Chase Sapphire Reserve Announcer]

More.

[Host (likely a white interviewer)]

Do you get policed on, like, how you should be talking and how you should be doing your activism and how you should be entering the space of like, you know, is there is respectability, politics a problem for you?

[W. Kamau Bell]

I mean, so I think that like, by the nature of, of who I am in the world and even by the nature of like, how I have, how, how I do my hair or don't do my hair, I'm walking in and be like, I'm going to be me in whatever space I am. And yes, this T shirt says whatever it says. And yes, I'm. And yes, did I comb my hair? No one knows. You know, so I'm like, very focused on, like, being me in whatever space I'm in and just, and, and owning it in a way that I think age also helps. I think for me, it is so clear that you cannot achieve your way out of racism. And there's so many examples of black people just living their lives and being killed by state power or being unfairly treated that it is that respect, that anybody who wants to lean into respectability politics is just not dealing with facts. They're just not. And so for Me, I would love again. It would be great. And I grew up in that generation where we thought we could. I mean, I remember when people found out that Oprah wasn't let into the Hermes store in Paris, it was like, the end of respectability politics. I think that's the best argument. Oprah wasn't allowed into the fancy store in Paris because they were just like, no black lady. No, no, no. So for me, the. I be the. We have seen over and over again that no matter how successful a black person is, it cannot stop the state from coming after them when the state wants to. I write on substack once a week now, and every week I'm like, how can I put it? This week? Like. And I did it with you.

[Host (likely a white interviewer)]

And I'm like, it's the same goddamn thing every week.

[W. Kamau Bell]

The same. Yeah, what? What's the angle? So I think that, like, I think. I think part of the thing I'm doing right now is to be like, I just want to be so clear about where I stand on these things so that you can know. So that, you know. My subject's called who's with me? Are you with me on this? If you're not, that's fine. But I. It's. The least I can do is be clear, especially at a time where some people are acting like things are either already back to normal or they're gonna go back to normal or this is gonna be fine.

[Host (likely a white interviewer)]

Right?

[W. Kamau Bell]

And I'm like, for. And I'm like, for three weeks in a row, I've been writing about how they're current. The. The Washington, D.C. is being illegally invaded. It's been. Been illegally invaded by the United States government. Anyway, I saw this new movie, and, you know, just, like, it's not gonna. It's not gonna leave my list of things to talk about, right? It's not going to because. Because it's too dangerous. It's too dangerous.

[Host (likely a white interviewer)]

Well, I love talking to you, and I want to do it again soon.

[W. Kamau Bell]

All right, let's do it.

[Host (likely a white interviewer)]

Hit me up.

[W. Kamau Bell]

I'll be having. I'll be having this car as soon as we get off. I'll still be having this conversation, so I'm happy to. I speak Karen. I have. I have my. You know, through my wife. I have white family members. So I speak. I speak Karen.

[Host (likely a white interviewer)]

I think you also speak it from your. What would you do? Experience, right?

[W. Kamau Bell]

Oh, my God. Oh, my God. I don't think it was like a fever dream. I think it's so funny that I got to do that.

[Host (likely a white interviewer)]

It's so weird. But that's like, it's just, it should have just been called like, how would you handle it, Karen?

[W. Kamau Bell]

Yeah. And they also just put me in all the racism situations. Like don't I get any fun one about like somebody found $5. These are all like the racism ones. But they're not going to let me do what I would normally do and really I have to. Somebody helped a lost kid. Nope. I'm in like what would you do in the middle of this racism. When I'm at the airport with my, especially my middle kid who's very, you've met, who's very fair complected. When we go through security, if it's just the two of us, I'm like, look, I know we like to joke around. Now's not the time. So. So when they say, when they say, what's your name? Who is he to you? Yeah, I know that thing. I was like, so I was like, I'm always like, look, this is, this is the most serious you'll ever see. Your dad is when we're about to walk through airport security. Like we run through all the questions. When's your birthday? How old are you? What's your middle name? Yeah, I do a pre test.

[Host (likely a white interviewer)]

That's it for this week. We have a tip line open. Call us at 3232-4814-8832-3248-1488 and please subscribe to our premium channel. It's $5. It's the Dream, plus it's at thedream.supercast.com all episodes ad free. Cancel next weekend and just rip through the whole thing. Look below this episode. Look in the description. There's a link. You can just tap it and go subscribe and then I'll see you in there. Love you. Bye.

[Progressive Insurance Announcer]

This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies. Try [e-mail] Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states.

[Optum Announcer]

Health care can feel complicated. That's why Optum uses technology to connect the people and processes that make healthcare easier, more affordable and more effective. We're making it clearer for you to know exactly what your benefits are cover and to help you better manage your health. We're coordinating care between your doctors and your technology. We believe better, simpler healthcare is always possible. That's healthy optimism. That's Optum. Visit optum.com to learn more.

[Chase Sapphire Reserve Announcer]

This is a vacation with Chase Sapphire Reserve the butler who knows your name. This is the robe, the view, the steam from your morning coffee. This is the complimentary breakfast on the balcony, the beach with no one else on it. This is the Edit, a collection of handpicked luxury hotels you can access with Chase Sapphire Reserve and a $500 edit credit that gets you closer to all of it. Chase Sapphire Reserve now even more rewarding.

[Progressive Insurance Announcer]

Learn [e-mail] Sapphire Reserve cards issued by JPMorgan Chase bank and a member FDIC, subject to credit approval.