Podcast Summary: The Dream - "Outlawed Feed Drop! Tension of Opposites"

Host: Jane Marie
Guests: Dr. Beverly Gray, Dr. Jonas Swartz, Dr. Jenny Villavicencio
Date: September 12, 2025
Duration: ~50 minutes (main content)

Overview

In this episode of The Dream, host Jane Marie shares an episode from her new project, "Outlawed," a podcast focused on abortion facts, stories, and the shifting legal and medical landscape post-Roe. Jane is joined by doctors Beverly Gray and Jonas Swartz (both OB/GYNs specializing in complex family planning), and features a powerful interview with Dr. Jenny Villavicencio, an all-trimester abortion provider. The discussion aims to myth-bust, destigmatize abortion, and equip listeners to have nuanced, informed conversations—especially about abortion later in pregnancy.

Major Discussion Points & Insights

1. Background and Purpose of "Outlawed"

• Jane introduces "Outlawed," produced and hosted by Drs. Gray and Swartz out of North Carolina, emphasizing the need for real, factual information on abortion post–Dobbs decision (03:15).
• Quote:
  “We just wanted to get the facts out there... so that you are armed with them... if you ever have to get in a discussion or an argument or you know, write an email to somebody expressing your opinions.” —Jane Marie (01:56)

2. The Role of Personal Experience and Expertise

• Dr. Beverly Gray shares her broad experience in early pregnancy, miscarriage, abortion care, and working with medically complex patients (02:35).
• Dr. Jonas Swartz details his research focus on health disparities and access issues, and how public insurance programs affect care (03:16).
• Both reflect on rapid legal changes after the Dobbs decision and the confusion it spread, even among providers (03:59).

3. The Power of Storytelling and Public Conversation

• The stigma and discomfort around abortion—even among those who support it—are discussed (06:16).
• Quote:
  "The majority of people in the United States support access to abortion care... but the reality is that, you know, abortion is this topic that maybe people feel is taboo and won't bring up... that enables these, you know, heinous laws because there isn't this expression of public support." —Dr. Jonas Swartz (07:32)

4. Mythbusting Around "Late-Term" Abortions

• The episode highlights a media clip of Pete Buttigieg correcting misinformation about so-called “late-term abortions,” underscoring the rarity and heart-wrenching realities of these cases (09:29–11:03).
  • Timestamps:
    • Buttigieg clip: (09:49–11:03)
• Discussion of how most abortions occur in the first trimester; later abortions are rare and often associated with devastating fetal or maternal diagnoses (11:28).
• Quote:
  "The idea that people are making flippant decisions about their health care, it's just not the reality." —Dr. Beverly Gray (07:03)

5. Interview: Dr. Jenny Villavicencio’s Journey

• Jenny bravely shares her transformation from a deeply conservative, anti-choice Catholic upbringing to becoming a prominent all-trimester abortion provider (18:57–29:26).
• She recounts her experience realizing the “othering” of abortion patients and the moment—from a night shift with a devastated, abandoned patient—that changed her path (23:09–29:26).
• Notable Moment:
  “This was how I actually enacted the justice that I had been so dedicated to my entire life—showing up for people like her and making sure that she was never abandoned again.” —Dr. Jenny Villavicencio (28:30)
• She stresses the continuity of her values (justice, compassion, community), even though the way she expresses them has changed.

6. Defining “Later Abortion” & Addressing Stigma

• Dr. Villavicencio provides a clear explanation of what constitutes a later abortion, the small number of providers, and the varied patient reasons for needing care after 24 weeks (29:26–34:13).
• She underscores the extreme marginalization and obstacles these patients face, dispelling harmful myths about motivations for later abortion (29:26).
• Types of reasons: new medical/fetal diagnosis, changes in circumstance, or late pregnancy discovery (34:13).
• Quote:
  “The folks that need abortion care later in pregnancy... are some of the most stigmatized among the most stigmatized.” —Dr. Jenny Villavicencio (29:26)

7. Palliative Care vs. Abortion - Distinctions

• The doctors clarify the difference between abortion care and palliative (comfort) care for infants with lethal diagnoses (35:40–39:21).
• Strongly challenge the rhetoric that conflates compassionate end-of-life neonatal care with abortion or "infanticide."
• Quote:
  "It's really harmful that those two things are mixed, that someone would call [palliative care] abortion care, because it's just not abortion." —Dr. Jonas Swartz (37:06)

8. The “Tension of Opposites” and Personal Reconciliation

• Jenny introduces the concept, from psychology, that people are capable of holding conflicting feelings (“tension of opposites”)—a key to understanding complex responses to abortion (41:13–44:37).
  • Example: feeling honored to care for her aging parents while also feeling exhausted.
  • Extends this to abortion: one can wish abortion wasn't necessary while also supporting its availability.
• She shares moving stories about her mother’s evolution—how over time, they found common ground, empathy, and mutual respect despite ongoing religious differences (44:41–49:19).
• Quote:
  "She was trying to do for me what she did for her friend... showing up for someone, even if you disagree." —Dr. Jenny Villavicencio (48:20)

9. Conclusion and Resources

• The hosts remind listeners that these stories are critical and supported by philanthropy, urging engagement and subscriptions (49:20).
• Listeners are invited to join "Outlawed's" Substack for listener guides and further resources (49:49).

Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• “The majority of people in the United States support access to abortion care... but the reality is that, you know, abortion is this topic that maybe people feel is taboo...”
  —Dr. Jonas Swartz (07:32)

• “This was how I actually enacted the justice that I had been so dedicated to my entire life—showing up for people like her and making sure that she was never abandoned again.”
  —Dr. Jenny Villavicencio (28:30)

• “The folks that need abortion care later in pregnancy... are some of the most stigmatized among the most stigmatized.”
  —Dr. Jenny Villavicencio (29:26)

• "You can wish abortion wasn't necessary while also supporting its availability."
  —Paraphrased summary of Dr. Villavicencio's “tension of opposites” discussion (41:13)

Key Timestamps

• 01:56 – Jane discusses the motivation behind "Outlawed"
• 03:15 – Drs. Gray and Swartz introduce their backgrounds
• 07:32 – Stigma & silence enable abortion restrictions
• 09:49–11:03 – Pete Buttigieg's "late-term abortion" mythbusting clip
• 18:57–29:26 – Dr. Villavicencio details her journey from anti-choice to abortion provider
• 29:26 – Explaining "later abortion" and its realities
• 34:13 – Discussion of patient motivations for later abortion
• 35:40–39:21 – Distinguishing palliative care from abortion
• 41:13–44:37 – The "tension of opposites" explained
• 44:41–49:19 – Reconciliation and conversations with family

Tone and Style

• The conversation is empathetic, candid, and unflinching—personal experiences and emotion are foregrounded, but always paired with medical authority and data.
• Humor and warmth emerge in anecdotes, making the content approachable despite its gravity.

For Further Engagement

• Subscribe to "Outlawed" on all podcast platforms
• Visit outlawed.substack.com for additional resources and listener guides

Summary prepared for listeners wishing to gain deep understanding of abortion care in post-Roe America, especially the complexities around later abortion, from both a personal and medical perspective.