The Cost of A Childhood Online

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Dream

Episode: The Cost of A Childhood Online
Host: Jane Marie
Guest: Fratesa Latifi, author of Like, Follow: Influencer Kids and the Cost of a Childhood Online
Release Date: April 8, 2026

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Overview

This episode marks the return of The Dream in a new weekly interview format, staying true to its ethos of dissecting the "American Dream" and those who make it harder to achieve. Jane Marie welcomes journalist and author Fratesa Latifi to discuss her new book on the phenomenon of family vlogging and child influencers. Their deep dive examines the history, economics, and moral hazards of monetizing childhood online—probing both the allure and the ethical complexities behind the world of “sharenting.”

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Origins of Family Reality Content

• The Loud Family (1971):
  • Early reality TV, a PBS series documenting a regular middle-class family from Santa Barbara, California. (03:13–05:14)
  • 10 million viewers tuned in.
  • Introduced themes still relevant today: domestic arguments, financial stress, children coming out, etc.
• Quote:

  "Every family is so fascinating just by virtue of being a family… we just can't look away from other families."
  —Fratesa, (05:14)

2. From Mommy Bloggers to Family Vloggers

• Blogs to Vlogs:
  • Early 2000s mom blogs focused on the mothers’ inner worlds; kids were secondary.
  • Rise of YouTube lowered the barrier to entry; kids became main characters.
  • Monetization shifted the content from earnest sharing to commercialized, heavily produced storytelling. (07:14–09:00)
• Mom Influencer Economy:
  • Behind-the-scenes support (nannies, managers) often hidden from audience.
  • Shift from authenticity to curated, marketable perfection.
• Notable Story:
  • A nanny potty-trained a vlogger’s child, but the influencer sold courses claiming it was her expertise.

    "They're putting out these images... of doing everything themselves and just completely erasing the labor of the women who are propping them up."
    —Fratesa, (10:51)

3. Spotlight: Ballerina Farm

• Ballerina Farm’s Branding:
  • Hannah Neelman, Juilliard graduate, Mormon, married young into JetBlue fortune.
  • Built a farm-centered social media “dynasty,” selling everything from sourdough starter to jerky. (12:01–15:34)
  • Brand hinges on homesteading aesthetics, but underwritten by immense family wealth.
• Issue of Authenticity:
  • Concealing access to resources misleads audiences about what’s possible for average moms.
  • Perpetuates the MLM-like narrative: anyone can “have it all” if they follow/buy the right products.

  • “The issue is like the duplicitousness, like selling a thing that you’re actually gaining from hidden resources.”
    —Jane Marie, (15:34)

4. The Labor of Online Family Celebrity

• Influencing is Actual Labor:
  • Vlogging requires editing, filming, scripting—it's a job akin to running any small business.
  • Content creators strive to make the work seem effortless or casual, masking the labor behind it. (24:23–26:22)
• Quote:

  “It is a job… You can’t do both [parenting and content creation] at the exact same time.”
  —Fratesa, (16:48)

5. The Darker Sides: Prank Culture & Children’s Privacy

• Prank/Humiliation Content:
  • Vulnerability or distress in children often drives viral content.
  • Example: LeBrant family pranking their child about losing her dog; child visibly traumatized for views. (28:37–29:40)

  • “I hate pranks. I'm so anti-pranks. I hate April Fool’s Day… It’s just making other people feel or look stupid, and it makes me uncomfortable.”
    —Fratesa, (31:48)

• Impact on Kids:
  • Some children resent their lives being mined for storylines; others aspire to become influencers themselves. (32:23–33:52)

  • “I’ve stopped telling my mom personal things because she makes it into content.”
    —Fratesa quoting a child interviewee, (33:14)

6. The Fans: Who Watches?

• Audience Demographics:
  • Mix of children (often from vulnerable homes seeking “perfect” families) and adults (aspirational, but often left feeling inadequate).
  • Algorithmic feeds amplify feelings of comparison and self-doubt. (34:02–37:14)

  • “We think we’re watching for one reason, but we’re getting something totally different out of it.”
    —Fratesa, (35:56)

7. Monetized Childhood Meets Real-World Dangers

• Content & Predators:
  • NYT investigation revealed open celebration and exploitation of child influencer content by pedophile networks; parents often aware but rarely change their behavior. (41:03–45:28)

  • “Thank God for mommy and child influencers because we don’t really have to look for anything. It’s just fed straight to us… just on Instagram.”
    —Fratesa recounting NYT findings, (41:26)

• Parental Response:
  • Common responses: block/report users, warn kids about predators, but keep posting.
  • Example: Mother tells 8-year-old about sexual comments on her content, but doesn’t change posting habits.

  • “...it wasn’t a jumping off point to be like, and now we’re not gonna show you online anymore…”
    —Fratesa, (45:03)

8. The Moral Equation: Money vs. Privacy

• Justifications & Law:
  • Parents rationalize: financial stability, children enjoy it, better future opportunities.
  • Laws to protect kids’ earnings exist but are weak, convoluted, and difficult to enforce. (50:18–50:33)
  • Host pushes harder:

    “Can’t you just get a real job that doesn’t victimize your children?”
    —Jane Marie, (51:12)

• Emotional Toll:
  • Even critics and researchers fall prey to comparison and self-doubt when consuming this content.
  • Some moments of connection or comfort from shared experience, especially for new parents. (52:16–53:07)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

| Time | Speaker | Quote/Paraphrase | |-----------|--------------|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 05:14 | Fratesa | “Every family is so fascinating just by virtue of being a family…” | | 10:51 | Fratesa | “They're putting out these images... and just completely erasing the labor of the women who are propping them up.” | | 15:34 | Jane Marie | “The issue is like the duplicitousness, like selling a thing that you’re actually gaining from hidden resources.” | | 24:51 | Jane Marie | “Or it’s not a job, it’s... capturing things in the moment... rather than it being my entire job as if I was a dentist.” | | 28:19 | Fratesa | “The more vulnerable a child is in the content, the better the content is going to do.” | | 31:48 | Fratesa | “I hate pranks. I'm so anti-pranks. I hate April Fool’s Day… It’s just making other people feel or look stupid...” | | 33:14 | Fratesa | “I’ve stopped telling my mom personal things because she makes it into content.” (from a child) | | 35:56 | Fratesa | “We think we’re watching it for one reason, and then we’re getting something totally different out of it.” | | 41:26 | Fratesa | “Thank God for mommy and child influencers because we don’t really have to look for anything. It’s just fed straight to us.” | | 45:03 | Jane Marie | “...it wasn’t a jumping off point to be like, and now we’re not gonna show you online anymore…” |

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Important Timestamps

• 03:13–05:14 – Early family reality: the Loud family and the birth of the genre.
• 07:14–11:39 – Transition from blogging to vlogging; rise of mom influencers and hidden labor.
• 12:01–16:48 – Deep-dive into Ballerina Farm and the myth of self-made internet “supermoms.”
• 24:23–26:22 – The hidden labor and relentless work of family vlogging “as a job.”
• 28:37–33:14 – Prank culture, impact on children, and children’s shifting relationship with privacy.
• 34:02–37:14 – Who watches? Aspirational depressions, algorithms, and the parental audience.
• 41:03–47:21 – Predators in the comment section; NYT reporting; parental justifications for ongoing exposure.
• 51:12–53:07 – Host and guest grapple with the irresistible pull versus the price of sharing so much online.

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Overall Tone & Closing Reflections

Throughout the episode, Jane Marie and Fratesa Latifi combine wry humor and deep skepticism with real empathy for both viewers and creator families. The tone is frank, conversational, at times exasperated—especially as ethical lines blur between commerce, privacy, and the well-being of children growing up in public. The dialogue resists easy judgment but is unflinching in its critique: the monetized childhood is an American Dream with real, sometimes unexamined costs.

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For parents, educators, and anyone scrolling their own feeds, this episode invites a hard look at what we share, what we consume, and who ultimately profits from the joys and humiliations of growing up—online.

Transcript

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[Jane Marie]

I'm Jane Marie and this is the dream. Last time today's guest was on, she mentioned she was writing a book and folks, ta da. It's out now. It's called like Follow Influencer Kids and the Cost of a Childhood Online. And it should be required reading for all parents and teachers and teenagers, et cetera. In the book she interviews dozens of families and others about what the world of family vlogging, you know, people that are big family influencers online showing their entire family lives. What that's doing to us, to all of us today. We'll dig into her reporting. Let's talk about this book. I gotta say, you kind of blew my mind right in the. In the introduction with a story that I have never heard of. One of the first sort of influencer families. The Loud family. I love that name.

[Fratesa Latifi]

I know. Isn't it the perfect name?

[Jane Marie]

During the next hour you will see the first in a series of programs entitled An American Family.

[Podcast Host / Advertiser]

There is no question that the presence

[Jane Marie]

of our camera crews and their equipment

[Fratesa Latifi]

had an effect on the Louds. The Loud family were this family of a mom and a dad and five children. And they were basically the first family reality show. So a documentary crew filmed the Loud family. They're from Santa Barbara, California. This was back in 1971, and when it aired on PBS, 10, 10 million viewers tuned in to watch.

[Jane Marie]

Whoa, whoa, that's a lot.

[Fratesa Latifi]

Yeah, no, that's a lot.

[Jane Marie]

I'm trying to think of how many people watch the Bachelor.

[Fratesa Latifi]

Well, no one.

[Verizon Advertiser]

Now,

[Jane Marie]

that's a whole other family vlogging story sort of adjacent.

[Fratesa Latifi]

But.

[Jane Marie]

Okay, so tell me the story of the Loud family.

[Fratesa Latifi]

Yeah, I mean, it's really interesting because before that it had never really been. There had never really been a reality show based on a family put on the air. And it was this guy, Craig Gilbert. He was a documentarian and he figured, let's just do this kind of like cinema verite, sort of just like day in the life view of this family. And he chose the Loud family because they had kids from the ages of, I think 13 to 20. So there was like a wide range, but they were basically just like a middle class family. And they were like, let's just follow them around and see what happens. And it turned out that it was TV gold. And it's like, it was like the daily dramas of a family, right? And I mean, the parents were fighting and eventually they broke up.

[Jane Marie]

But there's something wrong, you know, there's something wrong with Bill, there's something wrong with me. There's something wrong with everybody that was not wrong with Bill five years ago or ten years ago or two years ago or a half a year. There you go. Probably nothing except a little bit. You have changed a little bit of age. Yes, I have changed only to the extent that I understand now that. Life doesn't go on the way you have it planned. The things happen and change your life, the things that you don't want to happen can come in and be a very strong part of your life. People and things that you don't even know exist, Yvonne. Oh, I know. And all of a sudden, there they all are. It doesn't have to be a bunch of big bosom, fat ass, blonde businesswomen. It can be anything.

[Fratesa Latifi]

And the kids, one of the kids came out as gay, which was a huge deal. You know, it was like the drama of daily life and like what happens to a family. And it turns out that, you know, the dad didn't have as much money as he was saying, and so they were fighting about finances. And it was just like this, like, fascinating look into this regular kind of family. But it turns out, and this is what I think is behind family vlogging in general is every family is so fascinating just by virtue of Being a family and being like an insular unit. People ask me, why are family vloggers so interesting? Or why do family reality shows do so well? And it's like we just can't look away from other families. Like, it's like the most intimate form of a relationship. It's so strange. Like when you are a little kid and you go to your friend's house and you see how their family functions, you're like, oh my God, I can't believe they do it this way. You know, like, it's just, I mean, I can't look away from family vloggers because I'm like comparing myself to them. And sometimes I feel better about my parenting and sometimes I feel worse, but either way I'm just fascinated.

[Jane Marie]

Well, I'm trying to think of a, a parallel from, you know, I wasn't born in 1971 when the Loud family was on PBS, but I was definitely a fan of like wife swap.

[Fratesa Latifi]

Same. Yeah, and that, and that was so weird, right? Like, and that was, the whole concept was like these, these wives, these families, like switching places and just like, look how weird this family does it. But everyone thinks their own family is like doing it the normal way, or at least the way they're used to. And these other families are so weird.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah, well, I don't mind that form of entertainment, I guess when it's like a let's drop in and drop out of this real situation that's happening. But with family vlogging it's just become like so produced revenue stream. When did that change happen?

[Fratesa Latifi]

Yeah, I think that that really happened around the dawn of YouTube and, and really when. Because before that there were like family bloggers, right? Especially mom bloggers on Blogspot or whatever the website or platform was at the time. But there wasn't really a way to monetize it. And then there became a way to monetize that. But then when YouTube started, that's when family vloggers really took off because suddenly you could make all this money on YouTube and it was like the barrier to entry was so incredibly low, you just had to have a cell phone and a camera.

[Jane Marie]

What were the, what were the mommy bloggers blogging about? It was like the mid aughts, the mid 2000s.

[Fratesa Latifi]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's really interesting to look back at the original mommy bloggers now because they were so almost like precious compared to the way that mom influencers function now. Like they were, they were writing these 3,000 word essays on like the trials and tribulations of potty training and infertility and hating your husband after you have a kid. Like it was very focused on the inner world of the mothers and it was almost like the kids were like secondary characters as opposed to now. In family vlogging, the kids are main characters.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah, it seemed very earnest and, you know, it's a little bit MLM adjacent. Mom needs a side hustle.

[Fratesa Latifi]

Yeah.

[Jane Marie]

I'm gonna do this little business on the side. But it didn't have to involve the entire family. Right. I think those early bloggers were being fairly sincere. Yeah. What their experiences were. But that's seemed to. That's changed. Right.

[Fratesa Latifi]

Well, this is what is so troubling to me is in my research I found that many, many mom influencers and family vloggers who kind of make content that is watch me do it all on my own with my five kids and my beautiful hair and everyone's matching all the time and. And I'm making sourdough from scratch. And the way that you can be as good of a mom as I am is if you buy my commissionable protein powder or hydration packets or whatever. And really behind the scenes, they have a full time nanny, they have a house manager, they have a videographer, they have an editor. And so it's difficult because I don't wanna seem like I'm like shading anyone for having help because like I have help and I don't know what I would do without it. But like, I think when you're sell. Selling that, selling the dream of being able to do this all on your own. If you only buy these products when really you're not doing it on your own, I mean, that's just dishonest. I talked to the nanny of a family vlogger and she told me that one of the nannies was tasked with potty training this child, this toddler of the family. And the mom left the toddler with the nanny for a few days and they did that whole like, you know, three days, no underwear and just, you know, make a mess and figure it out.

[Jane Marie]

I don't know, that thing. Wait, what, what is that?

[Fratesa Latifi]

It's, it's just, it's like this, the new thing in potty training, it's just like, okay, you stay home for three days, you just completely do away with diapers cold turkey. You let them like make messes and make mistakes and then they figure it out by the end because I don't really have time.

[Jane Marie]

Must be nice.

[Fratesa Latifi]

Yeah.

[Jane Marie]

Three days off.

[Fratesa Latifi]

I know, I'm like, what? That yeah, luckily, I'm not there yet in my parenting journey. But the nanny was left alone with the toddler for a few days to do this, like, you know, intensive potty training. And at the end, the child was potty trained. And then the mom influencer started selling courses on how to potty train your kid, even though. Yeah, even though the nanny had done it. But it is really just like these women are. Are putting out these images and videos of doing everything themselves and just completely erasing the labor of the women who are propping them up, who are often women of color and just being like, I do it all myself, and this is how you can do it, too. And, you know, they're making a commission off of selling that to you.

[Jane Marie]

Well, maybe we could talk about Ballerina Farm.

[Fratesa Latifi]

Oh, my gosh. My favorite.

[Jane Marie]

Go off.

[Fratesa Latifi]

I mean, I just am so fascinated by her. I mean, she has what I think she just had. Her. Was that her ninth or eighth kid?

[Jane Marie]

I don't remember one of her. I lose track. I lose count. But let's start from the beginning, as if no one's ever heard of this.

[Fratesa Latifi]

Okay, so Ballerina Farm. Hannah Nealman was. She was a college student at Juilliard. She was raised Mormon.

[Jane Marie]

Wait, she went to Juilliard?

[Fratesa Latifi]

Yeah. Well, that's what the ballerina comes from.

[Jane Marie]

Oh, yeah, it's just a branding thing. I thought it was, like, a cute.

[Fratesa Latifi]

No, no, she was. She graduated from Juilliard.

[Jane Marie]

Did she ever join a troupe?

[Fratesa Latifi]

No, because by the time she graduated, she was married and pregnant.

[Jane Marie]

Oh, just like a ballerina. What?

[Fratesa Latifi]

Yeah.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah. What kind of a serious ballerina would do that?

[Fratesa Latifi]

In college, she meets Daniel Neilman, who is the heir to the JetBlue fortune and who is also Mormon, and he really kind of pushes them into marriage and having a kid.

[Jane Marie]

And.

[Fratesa Latifi]

Yeah, she's pregnant and married by the time she graduates. And that was. I think that was less than. That was maybe about 15 years ago. And she's had eight or nine kids since then.

[Jane Marie]

I'm already sad. This story hasn't even started, and I'm already sad. Like, you get into Juilliard and that's what you do with it.

[Fratesa Latifi]

I know.

[Jane Marie]

You know what it reminds me of? There was a girl from my hometown who is. Well, she's from the next town over, but close enough. She's, like, the only person from anywhere near there that went to Harvard. And then her parents made her study early childhood education.

[Fratesa Latifi]

At Harvard.

[Jane Marie]

At Harvard, like, and come home and be a kindergarten teacher.

[Fratesa Latifi]

What's the point?

[Jane Marie]

I Don't know. Like, why would you go to Juilliard for ballet if what you're gonna do is spend all of your ballet years pregnant?

[Fratesa Latifi]

Yeah. And also the concept of, like having eight or nine kids in 15 years makes me genuinely feel sick to my stomach.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah. Yeah. Like, I mean, my grandmas both did it, but.

[Podcast Host / Advertiser]

Right.

[Fratesa Latifi]

But like, they didn't have birth control.

[Jane Marie]

Well, they also didn't have jobs and didn't go to college.

[Fratesa Latifi]

Right.

[Jane Marie]

I mean, they worked. One of them was a bus driver and the other one's a truck driver. But still, like, it was. That was just what you were supposed to do. But imagine going from. Where was she from Utah?

[Fratesa Latifi]

Yeah, she was from Utah. She made it all the way to New York City. She went to Juilliard and then she went back and she started having kids and. And she has not stopped. And she and Daniel, she started posting online and she has made this entire. I mean, platform isn't even the word for it. Like, it's. She has tens of millions of followers and subscribers, but she also has this entire business based off of the ballerina farm branding. And so she has sourdough starter and she has jerky and she has.

[Jane Marie]

Oh. Because their. Their whole. The ballerina farm aesthetic is like living off the land.

[Fratesa Latifi]

Right. Like, they're like homesteaders.

[Jane Marie]

Homesteading.

[Fratesa Latifi]

Yeah. And homeschooling and, you know, doing everything themselves. But, you know, no one ever talks about the fact that her father in law is a literal billionaire, so.

[Jane Marie]

And they. And that is what pays for what?

[Fratesa Latifi]

Well, I mean, I can't know for sure, but it's obviously much easier to start a farm when you have that kind of backing, you know?

[Jane Marie]

Yeah. And have like the accessories.

[Fratesa Latifi]

And yes, it was like tens of thousands of dollars for this stove that

[Jane Marie]

looks old fashioned but is like brand new and really, really expensive.

[Fratesa Latifi]

Yeah. Yeah, totally.

[Jane Marie]

I think that the issue again, you said it already, but the issue is like the duplicitousness, like selling a thing that you're actually gaining from hidden resources.

[Fratesa Latifi]

Yeah. I mean, it's just. It's really bleak to me, I think, to tell other women that you can be as good of a mom as I am if you buy this thing that I'm posting an affiliate link of when really you have like all this help. And that's what helps you be such a good moment, you know, like, there's so many hidden nannies in the mom influencer and family vlogger world. And I think it. There are some people who are upfront about their nannies but most of the time, it's like. And I think this goes into the MLM kind of vibe of mom influencing. Is that, like, the dream of mom influencing is that you can have a career that unfolds in tandem with your motherhood, and you don't have to put your baby in daycare or you don't have to figure out childcare. Like, you can do both things at the same time, but really, like, it is a career like anything else, and you can't do it at the same time as your parenting.

[Jane Marie]

Not.

[Fratesa Latifi]

I mean, not at the exact same time.

[Jane Marie]

When we think about these folks earning a living, why do you think it's so shameful? Or why do they hide the fact that they might use some of those earnings to get help?

[Fratesa Latifi]

You know, I think it shatters the illusion, right? Because the illusion is that I am a perfect mother. I am an overworked, overwhelmed, but still perfect and beautiful mother. And if you say I'm not doing it on my own, like, that just kind of shatters the illusion.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah. Are there men that are in charge of this stuff? Like, are there male family vloggers?

[Fratesa Latifi]

There are. Yeah, there definitely are. I think oftentimes when it comes to family vloggers, like, moms tend to be sort of like the main characters with the kids, but there are men who are, like, very involved in it. And I think they tend to be involved on the business end of, like, you know, trying to hack the YouTube algorithm. But. But, yeah, they are involved.

[Jane Marie]

What does that mean, hack the YouTube algorithm?

[Fratesa Latifi]

I mean, I feel like when I talk to these dads, they're like, oh, my wife started this thing, and I thought it was kind of silly, but then she started taking off. So I started trying to figure out how to continuously go viral and, you know, what kind of editing tools we needed. You know, like, men, they like to come in and try to fix things.

[Jane Marie]

They do. When. Even when you're not asking for it.

[Fratesa Latifi]

Yeah, exactly. Especially then.

[Jane Marie]

Or especially when there's money involved.

[Fratesa Latifi]

Yeah.

[Jane Marie]

Like, how can I get in on the good stuff?

[Fratesa Latifi]

Yeah, totally. So Ballerina Farm is the preeminent mom influencer on the Internet right now. I mean, her content goes wildly viral, and it's almost all centered around homesteading and homeschooling and having lots of babies and making everything from scratch. I mean, she'll, like, make sandwiches for lunch, and she'll, like, churn the butter first. Yeah. So I used to milk with the stool, but it just kind of got in the way. I also used to milk with an automatic milker when we first got our milk cow, and it was also just more work than it's worth. And I just. It's so much simpler to just grab a pail and do it by hand. We start milking. It is wild because I'm like, I can barely get myself to, like, make myself a sandwich. Like, I'd rather just like, not eat. And she's like, churning butter, which is crazy, but that's her entire thing. And she's created this. This small, like, dynasty of branding where she sells everything. She sells protein powder and hydration packs and jerky and butter and ice cream, and it's all made on the farm.

[Jane Marie]

She makes the protein powder on the farm?

[Fratesa Latifi]

Well, I guess parts of it. I don't really know how you make protein powder.

[Jane Marie]

I don't either, so. Or hydration packs from a farm. I'm not sure.

[Fratesa Latifi]

It's also called, like, farmer's hydration, which kind of cracks me up because I don't think other farmers hydrate that way.

[Jane Marie]

But didn't she get in trouble recently too, for their milk or something?

[Fratesa Latifi]

Yeah, there was like a raw milk thing where something went wrong with the raw milk, which, like. Yeah, it's raw milk.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah. You get sick from it.

[Fratesa Latifi]

Yeah.

[Jane Marie]

It's not why Louis Pasteur decided to pasteurize things.

[Fratesa Latifi]

Yeah. I mean, it's interesting because there was a profile of her a couple of years ago, and in it her husband said something like, yeah, sometimes she'll just take to bed for like two weeks at a time because she's so exhausted. And I'm like, well, yeah, like I'm that exhausted and I have one child and I'm pregnant with another. Like, what?

[Jane Marie]

Yeah, I wish take to bed for a couple of weeks.

[Fratesa Latifi]

Yeah. Like my dream.

[Jane Marie]

I want to have a nervous breakdown. Like an old fashioned nervous breakdown where they send me on a grippy socks vacation.

[Fratesa Latifi]

Yeah. Like, to the sea.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah. Just. She needs to go get some air.

[Fratesa Latifi]

Yeah, totally.

[Jane Marie]

We'll be right back. The U.S. surgeon General says kids who spend more than three hours a day online are twice as likely to struggle with depression and anxiety. And nearly half of girls and about a third of boys say social media causes overwhelming stress. Researchers have even found that teens who spend more than five hours a day on their phones are at double the risk for suicidal thoughts. I want to avoid all that stuff with my kid. Good news. There's a better option. A company called Gab is tackling this with something they call tech in steps. Instead of handing a kid a full on adult smartphone right away. Gab offers safer phones and watches designed specifically for kids with no social media. Younger kids can start with GPS enabled watches so parents know where they are and as they grow they can move to phones with parent enabled apps. It's technology that grows with them while helping protect their mental health. The bottom line? Your child doesn't need a device built for adults. I absolutely love our Gab phone for my 12 year old. I can see where she is. She can call me. Others can call her if I approve. Anytime she gets a text message that has a bad word in it, I see it. I don't have to monitor everything she says. But when she's texting with someone and they say shut up, shut up, shut up, shut up, shut up jerk. I see that Gab keeps kids connected without social media. I can't recommend Gab enough. If you're looking for a phone that makes parenting easier and gives you a little more peace of mind, check them out. Visit gab.comdream and use code dream for an exclusive offer. That's Gab G A B B

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[Jane Marie]

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[Fratesa Latifi]

Well, now you can.

[Jane Marie]

I'm Jameela Jamil and guests on my

[Fratesa Latifi]

new podcast, Wrong Turns. You share their most mortifying and hilarious disaster stories. I'm talking people like May Martin, Bob the Drag Queen, Katherine Ryan, Jake Johnson,

[Jane Marie]

Margaret Cho, Simon Pegg Penn Badgley, and so many more.

[Fratesa Latifi]

So listen wherever you get your podcast. Wrong Turns Where Dignity goes to die

[Jane Marie]

Acast helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com. What's the average vlogging family like?

[Fratesa Latifi]

You know, I mean, even the average vlogging family has more help behind the scenes than you think. Because if they're, if this is their entire livelihood, it is a business, right? And so they do need help. And they have editors and Sometimes they have videographers and you know, the parents do. It is a job like people. I think the illusion of family vlogging and mom influencing is that it's just such an easy job that you can do it while you're raising your kids and you don't have to miss a second. But like.

[Jane Marie]

Or it's not a job, it's. I'm just capturing things in the moment and sharing it with my followers rather than it being my entire job as if I was a dentist.

[Fratesa Latifi]

Right. But it's like they are putting in that much work. Like it is a different kind of work. I'm not saying it's like as hard as other work in a way, but like it is that labor intensive.

[Jane Marie]

It's a career.

[Fratesa Latifi]

Yeah.

[Jane Marie]

But it doesn't. But the. I feel like the trick is to make it not come across as such, to make it seem incidental. Like, oh, I was just in the middle of my other business and look at the cute thing my kid did.

[Fratesa Latifi]

Right. A camera just happened to be on.

[Jane Marie]

Right.

[Fratesa Latifi]

It kind of cracks me up. I don't know if you've seen those videos where it's like night in the life of a mom with a five week old or whatever. And it's really fascinating because the camera captures everything. But you have to think about when you wake up with a five week old, you know, a couple times a night. Five times a night. But you're like going to like turn on your ring light and like move your camera and like turn on the recording before you like get out of bed. You know, it's just I can't imagine on top of how exhausting being a mother of a newborn is like trying to create content around all of it. It kind of makes me sad in a way because I feel like the time when most people or at least should get a break, most, you know, in that postpartum period is really the time that these women are working their hardest.

[Jane Marie]

Well, not only that, but those moments are really intimate.

[Fratesa Latifi]

Yeah.

[Jane Marie]

Between you and this person that you just brought into the world against their will.

[Fratesa Latifi]

Yeah.

[Jane Marie]

You know, like the bonding that happens early on, like, that is such a precious time. And to be thinking to turn the camera and the ring light on before picking the baby up out of the crib is. And look, I'm not a perfect mother. No one is. But that just. It feels so bleak.

[Fratesa Latifi]

Yeah, it does. It does. And I think it just speaks to the like, where we are in culture right now, that every single thing can be monetized, including like your child waking up in the middle of the night.

[Jane Marie]

Well, everything has to be.

[Fratesa Latifi]

Yeah.

[Jane Marie]

Because the economy's not working.

[Fratesa Latifi]

No. For most people.

[Jane Marie]

Right, right.

[Fratesa Latifi]

Yeah.

[Jane Marie]

So that's mommy bloggers and little ones. I'm thinking also about prank culture or the exposing faults.

[Fratesa Latifi]

Yeah.

[Jane Marie]

Side of influencer families.

[Fratesa Latifi]

Yeah.

[Jane Marie]

I, for me, that's where I get really triggered, where I'm like, I mean, yeah, it's one thing to talk about potty training a two year old, but it feels like the humiliation ritual just keeps happening. What are your thoughts?

[Fratesa Latifi]

You know, I think something that I've learned through the reporting of this book is that the more vulnerable a child is in the content, the better the content is going to do. And whether that is that they are surprised or embarrassed or sad or hurt, that is what's going to do best.

[Jane Marie]

Have you seen instances where it seems that those moments are being set up? Are parents setting up, you know, pranks and humiliation and all of that stuff to get more views, to get more money to raise said child?

[Fratesa Latifi]

There definitely is a culture, especially on YouTube, of like pranking kids. And I'm thinking of this. There was this video from a popular family vlogging family, the Lebrant family, a few years ago. You okay? Come here. What's the matter? What's the matter?

[Podcast Host / Advertiser]

Cole and sav pranked their 4 year old Everly into thinking she'd have to give away their beloved family dog, Carl.

[Fratesa Latifi]

We're giving Carl away to somebody else because we feel we can't take good

[Jane Marie]

enough care of him at our house.

[Podcast Host / Advertiser]

Well, by the time her mom, Sav revealed this was all just an April Fool's prank, the news made Everly so upset she refused to speak.

[Fratesa Latifi]

We're gonna let her give him away.

[Podcast Host / Advertiser]

But then Sav finally whispers to her, the whole thing is a joke.

[Fratesa Latifi]

You know, it got a ton of views and it did really well. And so the pranking culture is really. I also just like, as a person, hate pranks. Like, I don't think pranks are funny and I don't get the joke.

[Jane Marie]

I'll tell you as I, as a. I own a 12 year old, right. And I think partly because of this, because of the family vlogging trend toward pranks, I don't think it's a, you know, the young adult men like the Paul's, Logan Paul and Jake Paul. I don't think it's that influenced, but I think it is these like supposed safer spaces of family influencers. Pranking comes up all the time now. And I find it so gross. Like, it'll be. Let me try to think of an example. It will be that they're working on a school project on the weekend, and everyone needs to get together to work on it, and someone will be unavailable, but pretending that they're at the spot they thought they were supposed to meet at.

[Fratesa Latifi]

Okay.

[Jane Marie]

And so then everyone panics, like, oh, you're at the wrong house. We're supposed to be meeting over here. Like, it's things that have real world consequences.

[Fratesa Latifi]

Right.

[Jane Marie]

And then really, that person's just out of town with their family, like, on a trip, you know?

[Fratesa Latifi]

Right.

[Jane Marie]

But they're framing it, like, wouldn't it be funny if I. And hopefully my child is not one of the people doing the prank. Prank. Whatever it is. But it was a prank is a phrase I hear constantly right now.

[Fratesa Latifi]

Yeah. Okay. I like, what. What's the joke? You know? Like, I don't. I just don't get it. Like, it's just, like, it's not funny.

[Jane Marie]

I don't know either. It's. It's. Oh, you all are at the wrong side of the mall that we were supposed to meet at. I'm over here. And then making people run to a different location. And then, Just kidding. I'm out of town. Ha ha. We got pranked.

[Fratesa Latifi]

I hate pranks. I'm so anti pranks. I hate April Fool's Day. I hate, like, practical jokes. No, seriously. Like, I just. I don't get it, and I. I feel like it's just making other people feel or look stupid, and it makes me uncomfortable. Again, what's the joke? Like, the joke is that you've told your kid that their dog ran away and they're devastated. Like, that's not funny. Like, it's not. Like, all I do every day is try to make sure that my daughter's not sad, you know? So, like, how is the joke, like, making her sad and then, like, filming it? Like. Like, I just would be so pissed off if I was the kid.

[Jane Marie]

Let's talk about those kids. Are they.

[Fratesa Latifi]

Yeah, I mean, some of them definitely are. And some of them are, like, YouTube is great. I love it, and I'm gonna be a family vlogger when I grow up.

[Jane Marie]

Okay, say more about both sides there.

[Fratesa Latifi]

Yeah. So, I mean, I think that something we have to realize is that, like, the dream of most young people right now is to be an influencer and to be a YouTuber, because they're looking around and seeing that there aren't that many other paths that, like, make a lot of sense right now. And so some of these kids that I talk to in the book are like, yeah, you know, it's kind of hard, like, we have to work a lot, whatever. But, you know, we love having fans and, you know, they feel really special and they feel important and they want to continue this when they grow up. And then other kids that I talked to for the book were like, I've stopped telling my mom personal things because she makes it into content.

[Jane Marie]

Oh, my God, I'm devastated already. And I don't even know what the story is.

[Fratesa Latifi]

Yeah, I know. I mean, it was literally just that this, this young woman told me that her mom would ask her to, like, do things or like, have conversations, and she would be like, I'm just gonna, I'm not gonna put it online. I'm just gonna send it to your aunt or whatever. And then she would put it online later. Yeah, she said that anything that she would share with her mom would end up in content. So she just like, stopped telling her personal things.

[Jane Marie]

Let's talk a little bit about the audience for this kind of content. Who is consuming this stuff with everybody's kids.

[Fratesa Latifi]

Yeah. Online, the difficult thing is, like, you can't tell demographically or like statistically because when you create an account, you obviously don't have to be honest about how old you are or what gender you are or where you live. So I was in the beginning of researching this book, I was trying to do that demographic research, and it just wasn't bearing out. But what I've learned from talking.

[Jane Marie]

Slow that down just a second. It wasn't bearing out meaning?

[Fratesa Latifi]

Well, just that I was starting to realize that, like, you, you would look at people's accounts and they would say, oh, I'm, you know, a 20 year old woman or whatever, and then you would like click it and their profile picture would be an older man or vice versa. And just like you, nobody tells the truth online, you know, and so I started talking to the fans themselves and asking them. And I think it's interesting because a good amount of the fans of family vloggers are other children. And often children who grow up in vulnerable or difficult family situations who want to watch a perfect family online.

[Jane Marie]

So that's the parallel of like watching Little House on the Prairie.

[Fratesa Latifi]

Yeah, totally.

[Jane Marie]

When we were little or I don't know what the other ones are because I'm so old, but yeah, or like Full House or whatever or Cosby show or something.

[Fratesa Latifi]

Yeah, yeah. So you're like, you want that example of a perfect family and Then there are the other parents who are watching it who say that they are watching it for aspirational or inspirational purposes. Although the research shows us that it actually makes us feel really badly about ourselves. So we think we're watching it for one reason, and then we're getting something totally different out of it.

[Jane Marie]

Wait, you mean, like, seeing other families fake succeed makes us feel shitty?

[Fratesa Latifi]

Yeah.

[Jane Marie]

Oh, yeah, Yeah.

[Fratesa Latifi]

I mean, because you're holding up your parenting to their parenting, and you're like, wait, why does this woman have six kids and she can make everything from scratch? And I have one kid and I haven't brushed my hair today?

[Jane Marie]

And you're like, because they have five assistants.

[Fratesa Latifi]

Yeah, no, I know. And I'm like, don't buy it. But even, like, myself, like, knowing better, like, I still sometimes feel bad seeing this content.

[Jane Marie]

Really?

[Fratesa Latifi]

Yeah. I mean, I think, like, I know better, but part of me still buys into it. I mean, I'll see just, like, you know, a gorgeous mom influencer with her several children, and she's doing a really cute art craft with them, which. I hate arts and crafts, and I don't bake, and I'm not, like, a, like, domestic person. And so I'll see these women being, like, incredibly domestic and, you know, beautiful while they do it. And I'm like, shit, I should really figure out how to, like, set up an arts and crafts thing before my kid gets old enough, you know? Like, it's just, like. It just makes me feel bad.

[Jane Marie]

This is funny because it also speaks to the algorithm. Yeah, you must be because of your research being fed a lot of this. Oh, yeah, my algorithm, it's very different with the MLM and scammy stuff. Um, but I work really hard to shift it. Like, I go out of my way to go follow people and look at things that aren't the thing that I'm reporting on. How has it changed what you see online? Like, the things that you look into?

[Fratesa Latifi]

I mean, I see almost entirely mom and family content. Like, it's just. I'm totally inundated by it. And I think that's partially because I just feel. Follow everyone for work on my. Like, I only have one account. I don't have, like, a personal account and a work account. And so everything on this one account is geared towards work. And so the algorithm is like, man, this woman loves family vloggers,

[Jane Marie]

but you kind of do.

[Fratesa Latifi]

I kind of do. Yeah.

[Jane Marie]

Back in a minute.

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[Jane Marie]

Acast powers the World's Best Podcasts Here's a show that we recommend

[Podcast Host / Advertiser]

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[Jane Marie]

Welcome back to the dream. We're talking to Fratesa Latifi, author of the new book like Follow Influencer Kids and the Cost of a Childhood Online. And this is the part of the conversation where we get into the creepazoids. Okay? Like the icky folks who make up part of the fan base of family vloggers.

[Fratesa Latifi]

The New York Times did this incredible investigative piece of journalism that took years a few years ago about the pedophiles who are drawn to child influencer content. And they actually got into these self proclaimed pedophile chats. And I mean the, the chats that these people were having were incredibly harrowing for so many reasons. But one of the things that they said was thank God for mommy and child influencers because we don't really have to go look for anything. It's just like fed straight to us. And it's not like on the dark web, you know, it's just on Instagram.

[Jane Marie]

And the parents know this?

[Fratesa Latifi]

Yeah. I mean, several of the parents that I talked to for my book told me that they were aware that people were viewing their kids content with these, you know, nefarious pedophilic reasons or through that view. And I think what surprised me was that it didn't seem to really change the way that they posted their kids online. Because I feel like if you know that pedophiles are looking at your child because they're sending you messages and they're commenting to that effect, like, I, I don't know how you just keep doing it. And I do get it on one hand. They're like, well, we can't, we can't control everything. Like, what if we're at a public park and there's like a peeping Tom or whatever. Like I can't control everything. And I'm like, okay, that's fair, you can't control everything. But you can control some things.

[Jane Marie]

Well, doesn't it directly translate into income?

[Fratesa Latifi]

Yeah.

[Jane Marie]

Have you confronted anyone about that? Like you're pimping your kids out basically?

[Fratesa Latifi]

I don't think I used those terms.

[Jane Marie]

How would you say it? I'm not very, I'm very uncouth.

[Fratesa Latifi]

I think for me it was just like, how do you balance this, this knowledge of knowing that people are looking at your child in this way and your desire to keep posting? And why does your desire to keep posting win out? And you know, they told me, I'm not going to let you know, basically a few rotten apples spoil the bunch. Which I guess I Could understand, but.

[Jane Marie]

But it's not a few, it's the majority, right?

[Fratesa Latifi]

Well, it's hard to say. It's really hard to say, like to put a number on it. So I think that's the other thing is like, it might be easy for them to say, oh, this is just a few people. But then, you know, you look at like the journalism that the New York Times did and you're like, oh, this is like a huge issue. And I mean, it's just like they, they would tell me, the parents would tell me like comments and messages that they would get. Like, this one woman told me she's a family vlogger and she had an eight year old daughter. And someone commented on one of the photos of her daughter and said like, that he wanted her to lift up her skirt so he could like see what was underneath. Yeah, just totally disgusting. And I asked her what, I asked the mom what she did when she saw that comment and she said, well, I blocked and reported him. And then I sat my daughter down and told her. And I was like, wait, what? For what reason? And she was like, well, I have a parenting philosophy of like transparency and honesty. And I just felt that she needed to know. And I was like, okay, what did that conversation look like? And she was like, well, I just told her, you know, there are unsafe people in this world and, you know,

[Jane Marie]

and I'm feeding you to them.

[Fratesa Latifi]

And we, I mean, what I found so strange about it, other than like explaining pedophilia to an eight year old, which is just like something that is just like horrifying to consider, is that like, yeah, it wasn't a jumping off point to be like, and now we're not gonna show you online anymore, or we're going show you in ways that could be less construed to be, you know, whatever, inappropriate.

[Jane Marie]

It was more like, we're gonna keep doing this and you should just.

[Fratesa Latifi]

FYI. Yeah,

[Jane Marie]

I'm, I'm just like, what?

[Fratesa Latifi]

I know that really, like there are oftentimes in this book and I think, I hope this comes through in the reading of it. I felt incredibly sympathetic towards the parents and I could understand a lot of the decisions that they made. Even though I would not make them, they were not decisions I would make. But I could understand in a different situation how I could make them. But then there were things like that, or like I had this one mom tell me, oh, I've noticed that photos of my 7 or 8 year old daughter when she's in her dance costume, get like saved and shared more than content where she's like fully dressed. And I was like, okay, so what did you do? And she told me, I'll never forget, she said, oh, well, I just, I share that stuff like once a quarter now. And I was like, okay, so you know that people are looking at this with these horrific intentions and your answer is to just share it a little bit less frequently. Like why share it at all?

[Jane Marie]

Yeah. What's your theory?

[Fratesa Latifi]

I mean, you know the thing that they told me was that again, you can't control everyone and there are all kinds of creeps out there and you can't, you know, maybe there's creeps at your kids school or whatever. Like you can't control everything. But I'm just like, again, you can't control everything, but you can control some things. And I think it's just that this content, it does really well. And I don't think, I don't think that the parents are consciously thinking, oh, there are going to be pedophiles looking at this, but it's going to make me money. But there is like a part of their subconscious that's making that trade.

[Jane Marie]

You're such a better journalist than me for Tassa. You are like, no, you try to stay subjective in the face of like the most bananas information.

[Fratesa Latifi]

Yeah. Which not always easy, but I really, it mustn't be like, I really do feel genuinely like very sympathetic towards most people most of the time. And then sometimes it just like crosses this line where I'm like, I cannot understand this as a parent.

[Jane Marie]

But you can understand what their motivation is. Sorry, I know you're smart enough to get it, but you're not going to project it on others. But like I'll say it in place of you saying it. I think it's greed, right? Yeah, it's money. And I, you know, some people directly sell their children to other people and some people do it this way and it's about money.

[Fratesa Latifi]

I also think it's easier for them to pass off that it's like that their child isn't really technically being harmed because it's like digital predation, you know, as opposed to like in person. Like I think these parents would obviously have a huge issue with someone coming up to their kid and saying these things in person. But if it's online, they can kind of like, oh, I'm going to block and report them. And that takes care of that.

[Jane Marie]

Right. Maybe they're using their kids.

[Fratesa Latifi]

I mean we definitely had some difficult conversations and I think they, they are grappling with the same things that the culture at large is grappling with. Like, they know what people think of them, but I think they feel generally at large, incredibly defensive of what they do. And they feel that it is a net good and that it is more important for their kids to be financially stable and able to go to Disneyland every year and have their college paid for than to have this privacy that other kids have. One of their justifications is that the kids really enjoy it. And like, in a lot of cases, I don't doubt that. Like, I'm sure the kids do enjoy it. But something that I think about is that, like, my daughter would enjoy, like, eating ketchup for every meal.

[Jane Marie]

How do the kids even know that it's doing well?

[Fratesa Latifi]

Well, that's the other thing is these parents are like, you know, they're not in, like, the nitty gritty of, like, subscribers and comments and likes. And I'm like, yes, they are. Like, they're gen Alpha and gen Z kids. Like, they were raised on this. Like, they know.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah. And they know the money's coming in.

[Fratesa Latifi]

Yes.

[Jane Marie]

Which now, according to a few laws, they get a slice of, I guess.

[Fratesa Latifi]

Yeah. But they're incredibly convoluted laws and they're very difficult to follow, even if you have the best of intentions. So I don't really have the highest hope for those.

[Jane Marie]

So.

[Fratesa Latifi]

Yeah, the.

[Jane Marie]

Don't you just want to wring some of these parents necks?

[Fratesa Latifi]

I mean, I just, like, I just want them to, like, drop the defensiveness and really think about what they're doing, but that's really hard. Like, when people come at you, like, the last thing you want to do is, like, listen to them. Like, you just want to dig your heels in even further.

[Jane Marie]

You're speaking from their perspective. Yeah, yeah. But it feels like we're pussyfooting around the actual issue.

[Fratesa Latifi]

Yeah. I mean, it's definitely money. Yeah.

[Jane Marie]

So, but I mean, talking. When you talk to parents about it and say, well, can't you just get a real job that doesn't victimize your children? Does anyone have an answer for that?

[Fratesa Latifi]

Well, I mean, what they would say is that they make much more money this way, that they're able to stay home with their kids, that they can take them on any vacation they want, that they can buy them a car when they turn 16, that they can all be together and nobody has to go into the office for 10 hours a day. So, you know, I mean, they're weighing these things in their minds. But it's.

[Jane Marie]

But is it Is it less work?

[Fratesa Latifi]

I guess it depends what your other job is. But no, it's a ton of work for sure. But I guess it takes place in the home. So you're like physically there but grabbing

[Jane Marie]

your children to read a script every five seconds?

[Fratesa Latifi]

Yeah, in some cases, yeah.

[Jane Marie]

Are there comforting moments when you're scrolling and you see a family vlogger and

[Fratesa Latifi]

you're like, oh, yeah, totally. I think especially when I was in the first year postpartum and I would see mom influencers or family vloggers posting about, you know, I mean, it was like this kind of faux vulnerability where they still looked really beautiful and their hair was still done, but they were talking about being sleep deprived or like how difficult it was to get their child to take a bottle or whatever. They were talking about these struggles that I was also inside of. And it was really a relief to have that reflected back to me because I felt like the entire world had moved on and I was just in baby world and no one else was there. And so it was a relief to see that.

[Jane Marie]

The dream is a production of Little Everywhere. You can get the ad free version of our show and support our [e-mail] cast.com and you can email us at helloitaleverywhere.com as for Tessa, titled her book please like follow and subscribe. Acast Powers the World's Best Podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend.

[Podcast Host / Advertiser]

If you've ever dreamed of quitting your job to take your side hustle full time, listen up. This is Nikayla Matthews Akome, host of side Hustle Pro, a podcast that helps you build and grow from passion project to profitable business. Every week you'll hear from guests just like you who wanted to start a business on the side. If you can't run a side hustle,

[Fratesa Latifi]

you can't run a business.

[Podcast Host / Advertiser]

They share real tips and so I

[Jane Marie]

started connecting with all these people on

[Podcast Host / Advertiser]

LinkedIn and I saw Target supplier diversity was having office hours. Real advice.

[Jane Marie]

Procrastination is the easiest form of resistance

[Podcast Host / Advertiser]

and the actual strategies they use to turn their side hustle into their main hustle. Getting back in touch with your tangible cash and sitting down and learning to give your money a job like it changes something. Check outside Hustle Pro every week on your favorite podcast app and YouTube.

[Verizon Advertiser]

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[Capital One Advertiser]

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