The Dream Team

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Dream Team

Episode Title: The Dream Team
Host: Little Everywhere (Jane Marie)
Guest: Brandi Hadfield
Release Date: July 11, 2025

---

1. Introduction and Background

Brandi Hadfield introduces herself as a 45-year-old psychotherapist in training, currently based in Toronto, Ontario. She shares her journey transitioning from a multi-level marketing (MLM) company to pursuing a career in psychotherapy.

• Brandi Hadfield [00:28]: "I'm in my fourth of five years of training as a psychotherapist, which I restarted after I left a multi-level marketing company."

2. Joining Juice Plus Company

Jane Marie initiates the conversation by inquiring about Brandi's involvement with MLMs. Brandi explains her recruitment into Juice Plus Company, highlighting the company's shift from a full MLM to an affiliate-only model.

• Brandi Hadfield [02:41]: "So I was part of the Juice Plus Company. They sell like fruits and vegetables, powdered, encapsulated, and like a plant-based omega and protein powder that's vegan."

3. MLM Culture and Practices

Brandi delves into the MLM environment, discussing the company's mission to promote healthy living and how her personal beliefs aligned with the company's evangelical Christian-leaning culture. She reflects on the pressures and conditioning inherent in MLM structures.

• Brandi Hadfield [03:49]: "There's definitely some people in my downline, like in my team believers and very much still in the company."

4. Personal Struggles and Burnout

Brandi recounts the challenges she faced balancing her MLM commitments with personal life, especially during the pandemic. She describes experiencing isolation, burnout, and the detrimental impact on her mental health.

• Brandi Hadfield [34:13]: "During the pandemic... I was just hustling my heart out, thinking I was changing the world, and... I hit a wall where I burnt out."

5. Leaving MLM and Recovery

Brandi explains her decision to leave the MLM, citing financial shortcomings and the unsustainable nature of the business model. She discusses her journey towards recovery, emphasizing the importance of disconnecting from the MLM community to regain her mental well-being.

• Brandi Hadfield [21:28]: "It felt difficult to sever ties. But then I felt like, okay, this is a real like black and white reason that I can leave because it's just not making sense financially."

6. Insights on MLM as Commercial Cults

In a profound discussion, Brandi presents her academic insights on MLMs, proposing that they function similarly to commercial cults by inducing behaviors like dissociation, denial, and narcissistic grandiosity. She shares her plans to explore this theory further in her thesis.

• Brandi Hadfield [39:56]: "I propose that multi-level marketing companies induce, or commercial cults in general purposely induce dissociation, denial and narcissistic grandiosity."

7. Impact of MLM on Personal Relationships

Brandi reflects on how MLM involvement affected her marriage and friendships. She touches upon the emotional toll of integrating MLM activities into her personal life, including the introduction of religious elements and the pressure to recruit others.

• Brandi Hadfield [15:42]: "I was kind of becoming Christian, like, as I was going along. And I talked to my husband about that, and that was probably the thing that was most... challenging."

8. Future Plans and Advocacy

Looking forward, Brandi shares her aspirations to create a nonprofit focused on commercial cult recovery. She emphasizes the need for resources and support for individuals exiting MLMs, aiming to provide psychoeducation and peer support.

• Brandi Hadfield [36:01]: "I'm actually in the process of trying to create a nonprofit for commercial cult recovery. We started our first peer support group meeting last month."

9. Concluding Thoughts

Brandi concludes by expressing her commitment to helping others understand and recover from the manipulative dynamics of MLMs. She highlights the importance of providing accessible resources and support systems for those affected.

• Brandi Hadfield [38:44]: "I'm still really finding my way out of the wellness world because it was such a huge part of my identity."

---

Notable Quotes

• Brandi Hadfield [08:18]: "People are always like, oh, they're all just suckers. And I'm like, no, they're like you and me. There's nothing weird or special about people who get involved in MLMs. It could be anybody."

• Brandi Hadfield [11:05]: "I think with most people, if you spend enough time, you're going to see them get immersed in it."

• Brandi Hadfield [26:27]: "It's like tough love. Then there's like a team call every single week and then there will be bigger team calls like for the greater, you know, upline."

• Brandi Hadfield [43:19]: "They're almost training the empathy out of you."

---

Key Takeaways

• MLM Recruitment Dynamics: Brandi's experience underscores how MLMs attract individuals through relatable figures and promise of success, often leading to deep psychological conditioning.

• Psychological Impact: The involvement in MLMs can lead to disordered behaviors, such as obsessive control over diet and lifestyle, contributing to mental health challenges.

• Cult-like Structures: MLMs possess cult-like characteristics, including indoctrination, emotional manipulation, and coercive control, which can adversely affect personal relationships and individual autonomy.

• Recovery and Advocacy: Exiting MLMs requires significant emotional and psychological effort. Increased awareness and support systems are essential for recovery.

---

Conclusion

In this episode of The Dream, Brandi Hadfield provides an in-depth exploration of her journey through the MLM world, highlighting the manipulative practices and personal struggles associated with such environments. Her insights offer valuable perspectives on the psychological ramifications of MLM involvement and the path towards recovery and advocacy.

Transcript

[Acast Advertiser]

Looking for the perfect podcast to sponsor? Meet Smart Recommendations, your AI powered media planner. Just describe your target audience in your own words and Acast Smart Recommendations will pinpoint the perfect podcast in seconds. Want to reach women aged 25 to 35 interested in film? No problem. Millennials living in big cities who love true crime. We've got you covered. Get started [e-mail] ads.

[Brandi Hadfield]

I'm Brandi Hadfield. I'm 45 years old and I'm in Toronto, Ontario, Canada. And right now I'm a psychotherapist in clinical supervision. So I'm in my fourth of five years of training as a psychotherapist, which I restarted after I left a multi level marketing company.

[Jane Marie]

I'm Jane Marie and this is the dream. What area do you focus on in your therapy work?

[Brandi Hadfield]

Well, my, I'll be doing my thesis next year and so I have to submit it for approval and I want it to be about commercial cult recovery. But right now as I'm in supervision, I work with anyone. My, my school is also a referral network, so they actually give the students in supervision clients.

[Jane Marie]

So that was my first therapist. My mom was going to the University of Michigan and we had, there was a family therapy place that was all referral for students like during their supervision or I thought of it doing their rounds, you know, and guess what happened like six months into Judy, she died. Oh, my very first therapist.

[Brandi Hadfield]

Shit. I just had a mammogram yesterday of breast cancer. No.

[Jane Marie]

Yes. No. Yes. The next therapist that took over from her, she was like, well, now we have another trauma to explore. And I was like, I want to talk to you. The reason I wanted to reach out to you and talk to you is because I feel like, you know so many corners of this world that we're interested in. One being you were in a multi level marketing company. Two, you have a lot of thoughts about the wellness world, which is also our favorite, and coaching. And three, you're aiming for a career to help folks like you get away from all of that. So where should we start? What company were you a part of?

[Brandi Hadfield]

So I was part of the Juice Plus Company.

[Jane Marie]

That's the name of the company?

[Brandi Hadfield]

Yeah, it used to just be called Juice plus, but then they changed it to the Juice Plus Company. And they sell like fruits and vegetables, powdered, encapsulated, and like a plant based omega and protein powder that's vegan. And then they also sold an aeroponic tower garden which.

[Jane Marie]

Who in the what?

[Brandi Hadfield]

It's like a, it's like a tower garden so you can grow produce in your home. But that arm of it or whatever ended up severing ties. Like, they're like, we don't want to be part of you anymore. We're just going to go to affiliate only recently.

[Jane Marie]

Meaning they're getting out of the multi level recruiting game. Okay.

[Brandi Hadfield]

Correct. Yeah.

[Jane Marie]

What was that company supposed to. I guess it's. What were they promoting?

[Brandi Hadfield]

Inspiring healthy living around the world.

[Jane Marie]

Was that the pitch?

[Brandi Hadfield]

Yeah.

[Jane Marie]

Give me the rest of the pitch.

[Brandi Hadfield]

Helping everyone to realize their dreams was part of it.

[Jane Marie]

Mm.

[Brandi Hadfield]

When I began my journey with them, a lot of the people within the company are very evangelical Christian, and I was more like the new age, which feeds into it just as conveniently for their intents and purposes. And I called, you know how the MLM boss babes name their teams? Like, we're team whatever. I was the dream team. And then I. And then when I was like coming out and I found the dream podcast, I was like, I like, literally changed my Instagram handle because it was dream with me or something like that. And I was like, oh, boy. Yeah. And I was like, that's perfect.

[Jane Marie]

You knew it was all a dream.

[Brandi Hadfield]

Full circle. Exactly.

[Jane Marie]

Tell me about how you got into that. How did you find this company?

[Brandi Hadfield]

Well, they found me. I was working for a very large fitness company in Canada for about a decade. I was in the human resources department and I was on maternity leave. And as I got closer to, like, my firstborn, who's now 13 when he was born, and I was getting closer to going back to work, where I traveled a lot for work, and I worked like 50 hours a week, which they would have adjusted, but I was very like, I always give my 150%. Like, I. I couldn't fathom doing less than what I was doing. So I was looking for something else. I started taking certifications, like health coaching, parent coaching, all these different, like, coaching certificates.

[Jane Marie]

You had just had your first baby.

[Brandi Hadfield]

Uhhuh.

[Jane Marie]

The audacity.

[Brandi Hadfield]

Oh, yeah. Parent coaching. Well, yeah.

[Jane Marie]

Were you just like, I got this, like, the minute you drive out of the hospital, like, nailed it.

[Brandi Hadfield]

Ask the opposite. I struggled so, so, so much because my firstborn was what they call, like a higher needs baby or like a highly sensitive baby. So I was. I was the complete opposite of feeling like I had it all under control. And then I wanted to learn as much as I could.

[Jane Marie]

And share your knowledge with the world. Yeah.

[Brandi Hadfield]

So I had found this parenting guru slash pediatrician, took the coaching certification that he had, and then his daughter, who is also certified, which is now defunct. It recently became defunct, this coaching body. She sent me a package in the mail which was basically recruiting me into the Juice Plus. And because I'd read books that literally described her and I. And she was my age now and a mom, I was just like. It felt serendipitous.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah. I have to ask, and I don't want to get into like a lot of body talk, but what were these products for again?

[Brandi Hadfield]

They were, it was. The pitch was, I know, like in the UK they're very much about like weight loss and stuff. Like they have a different flavor in the uk, but here it was more like family health. It was more like, we know we're supposed to be eating like 200 servings of fruits of vegetable. Actually they said 12, but it was just an insane amount per day. And this is all the reasons why you're supposed to. Because you have all this oxidative stress ricocheting in your body like bullets. And the antioxidants will be like pac men eating those bullets and preventing cancer and disease and et cetera. So it was more about your children. You know, we all know that they should be eating fruits and vegetables and they're not. And this is a way to bridge the gap. That was a big tagline too, is bridging the gap between what we should eat and what we actually eat.

[Jane Marie]

The reason I like your story and that I've been following you online is because I feel like you represent the mark for one of these companies who is really smart, very thoughtful, industrious, you're a mom, you seem to have your shit together and yet you got involved in one of these companies. Can you talk about that? People are always like, oh, they're all just suckers. And I'm like, no, they're like you and me. There's nothing weird or special about people who get involved in MLMs. It could be anybody.

[Brandi Hadfield]

Yeah, Arbonne was really big at the time when I joined Juice plus and I already knew it sounds too good to be true. It probably is. So I already had my spidey senses up about multi level marketing. Like by the time I was approached, I had read like hundreds of pages of material by literally a world renowned pediatrician who's well respected. I thought, okay, you know, I know in general these things seem suspicious, but this person I've trusted with all of these other areas has been my go to resource and he's getting his children to become distributors for this company. So there's got to Be. Maybe there's something to it. Maybe I'll just give it a shot. What's the worst that could happen? So I was just willing to kind of, okay, well, I'll give it a shot. I didn't realize the grooming and the indoctrination and all of that, that part of the MLM beast had never been on my radar. Just that it was a scam and unlikely. Not the whole coercive control piece. So that's. Yeah, that's how that happened.

[Jane Marie]

So this person who suggested it to you, how did this person come into your life again?

[Brandi Hadfield]

So he has written parenting books.

[Jane Marie]

Okay. And then he linked up with this mlm. Right. First of all, just like, how did things go? You joined. What happened in your career? How was your experience?

[Brandi Hadfield]

At first it was. It was difficult because it's awkward when you're pitching an MLM to your friends and family. But one of the things they told me, which they all do, is that, like, one of the keys is going to events and attending these trainings and events and get yourself to a conference. So this is where, like, the whole indoctrination piece happens. And you're just like, in this large group awareness training kind of environment where it's like, so much pizzazz and all of these other individuals and you're being shown all of these success stories and you are really starting to believe, well, look, she's doing it. She's just like me. I can do this too. And the conditioning is, yes, you can do it. And anybody who's suspicious of that or doesn't think that you can, they're not believing in you, rather than they're not believing in a predatory, quote unquote business model.

[Jane Marie]

Do you remember the math you were doing in your head about, like, this can't be one of those. Because of X, Y and Z. Like, you already knew what a pyramid scheme was. And the MLMs are suspicious. Do you remember, like, other than it came from a guy who had written some books that you respected, was there anything else about this particular one that made you a reasonable person? Set it into a different category, Because.

[Brandi Hadfield]

I was getting into those events and into those meetings and trainings where I was forging relationships with people who looked as though they were doing. Is my inclination to trust people that I was building relationships with. And I think with most people, if you spend enough time, like, I remember when you. In the first season, I believe a friend actually joined the company and went to the event and how she was like, oh, I kind of feel bad, like, I, you know, like you could feel the shift of when she actually got in the environment, how she started to feel a little bit like immersed in it.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah, some camaraderie there and, and getting to know the people's personal stories.

[Brandi Hadfield]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jane Marie]

What got you into those events? Did you have to just spend money to be there or was there some qualifying thing?

[Brandi Hadfield]

No. Well, it's the conference. I mean everyone, the quote was like, if you wait until you can go to conference, you'll never get to conference. So just go to conference. Just put it first. And I am the type of person who, I follow a recipe. Like I cook out of cookbooks if you, I follow instructions. So if you're telling me you will be successful and this is how you do it, I'll do that like 150%. So I did follow the quote unquote system. And I told myself, if nothing else, this will be an experiment. I'm just, just going to do all of the things and see what happens.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah.

[Brandi Hadfield]

And it was slow going, but I was getting recognized a lot.

[Jane Marie]

Not on the street. What do you mean?

[Brandi Hadfield]

I was getting recognized, showered with, with praise for doing all of the right things. Things would be said like, you are already there. The numbers just haven't caught up to you yet. Don't change a thing. You're perfect.

[Jane Marie]

Because you weren't making money.

[Brandi Hadfield]

Yeah, because I wasn't making money. But I was recruiting and I was leading events, leading trainings, acting as if, which is what I was told. Like just act as if you are a national marketing director. Which.

[Jane Marie]

Fake it till you make it, Brandi.

[Brandi Hadfield]

Yeah, act as if. And it's inevitable. So I believed all of these things with these people that I was spending a significant amount of time with. Literally spending, speaking with every single day. Like pretty much seven days a week.

[Jane Marie]

Wow. Did you expect it to be so intense? An over full time job? Yeah. And so intense?

[Brandi Hadfield]

No, because that's another tricky thing. It's not like a regular job where you're going to work and working those hours and then coming home and hopefully you don't really have to bring too much with you. The catchphrase was there's so many of them, they just keep coming up. Just do life and bring juice plus with you. So then it's sounds good. It's like, oh, I'm actually just living my life and it's just in my back pocket. But what actually happens is it's your life. And that's what happened when you said.

[Jane Marie]

Do life and bring juice plus. I thought you said Jesus for a second.

[Brandi Hadfield]

Well, fun fact, at the conferences, there's a lot of T shirts that say JC JC plus jp.

[Jane Marie]

No way.

[Brandi Hadfield]

Yeah.

[Jane Marie]

Oh, so the Lord wants you to be doing this too.

[Brandi Hadfield]

It's the Garden of Eden, you guys. It's the Garden of Eden. It doesn't get more natural than that. It's not a supplement. What?

[Jane Marie]

And so everyone was, like, into that branding.

[Brandi Hadfield]

Yeah, the target demographic certainly was.

[Jane Marie]

It's so crazy how many mlms are tied up with the Lord our Savior. How did you feel about that part?

[Brandi Hadfield]

That gets complicated there because there. There's definitely some people in my downline, like in my team believers and very much still in the company. There didn't feel this divide. Like, there feels like now between left and right and Christian and not. It was just some of my friends are Christian, some of them aren't. So I didn't really care, you know, My husband is, though, quite atheist, so as I work, you know, was becoming more and more immersed over the years. There would be things like prayer breakfast at the conference or prayer group chat. And one of my downlines sent me not a Bible, but it was like a Jesus quotes of the day kind of book.

[Jane Marie]

A daily devotional.

[Brandi Hadfield]

Yeah, thank you. Jesus quotes of the day. Yeah. I didn't go to church growing up.

[Jane Marie]

Chicken soup for the soul. Yes.

[Brandi Hadfield]

Like, in retrospect, when I look back, I'm like, oh, I was kind of becoming Christian, like, as I was going along. And I talked to my husband about that, and that was probably the thing that was most, maybe one of the most challenging things for our marriage with this whole thing. Like, the financial aspect is one piece, but seeing his wife get swept up into religion as well was difficult.

[Jane Marie]

Do you remember those fights?

[Brandi Hadfield]

It wasn't a we don't really fight.

[Jane Marie]

Must be nice. Okay, go on.

[Brandi Hadfield]

Yeah, it was a fight. It was more like conversations and me getting frustrated and saying, like, you know, sometimes there are some things in life that are so difficult that you need a more spiritual answer for. And he'd be like, all right. Okay.

[Jane Marie]

This podcast is sponsored by gab. The youth mental health crisis is all over the news, and we know social media is driving it. This shocked me. Teens spend an average of 9 hours a day on screens outside of school. That's basically a full time job outside of school, just scrolling endlessly. The US Surgeon General warns that kids who spend more than three hours a day online are twice as likely to have depression and anxiety. This is unbelievable. Or crazy. Believable. 45% of girls and 32% of boys feel overwhelming stress from being on social media and together 25% of both feel worse about their own lives. Here's the good news. A company called Gab has solved the problem by doing something no one else is doing. Their approach is Tech in Steps. Tech in Steps works by providing kid safe phones and watches tailored to every age, offering the right device at the right time. From GPS tracking enabled watches for young kids to increased features and parent enabled apps on the phones for tweens and teens, each device grows with your child. Bottom line, you don't have to give your kid a device that was made for an adult. Give them Gab, which keeps them socially connected safely. I can't recommend Gab enough. Use our code to get the best deal on something that will make parenting easier and give you peace of mind. Visit gabb.com thedream and the code the dream for a Special Offer Summer is here.

[Factor Advertiser]

More sun, more light. More time to do all the things that make summer so special. And the number one thing you don't want to be doing all summer? Spending hours cooking inside. That's where Factor comes in. Factor's chef crafted Dietitian approved meals are ready in just two minutes. Taking the hassle out of eating well. Factor Meals arrive fresh and ready to eat, perfect for any lifestyle over summer and beyond. With 45 weekly menu options, you pick gourmet meals that fit your summer gains and goals. Choose from options like Calorie, Smart, Protein plus Keto and more. Factor powers your day sun up to sundown with nutritious breakfasts on the go, lunches, premium dinners and guilt free snacks and desserts. Factor has your whole day covered. Enjoy more this summer. Get Factor if you want all of the flavor and none of the fuss. And I'll tell you I have a crappy oven. It gets really hot in the summertime, so I try to do as little cooking that involves my oven as possible. And Factor has helped so much with that. Get [e-mail] thedream50 off and use code thedream50 off to get 50% off off plus free shipping on your first box. That's code T H E D R E A M50O F F@Factor Meals.com thedream50 off for 50% off plus free shipping factormeals.com thedream50off.

[Lisa]

Hello listeners. Meet Lisa hey there. Lisa runs an online boutique specializing in sustainable fashion. With acast, she found a whole new way to reach eco conscious shoppers.

[Brandi Hadfield]

Yep, I recorded a quick ad Targeted.

[Jane Marie]

Listeners interested in fashion and sustainability using Acast's audience attributes targeting feature and set my budget.

[Brandi Hadfield]

Before I knew it, people all over.

[Jane Marie]

Were hearing about my shop.

[Lisa]

Now that's a smart way to grow your business. Hey Lisa, what's trending right now?

[Jane Marie]

Shopping sustainably.

[Brandi Hadfield]

And my sales, of course.

[Lisa]

Start reaching your ideal audience through podcast ads with Acast. Visit go acast.com advertisement to get started.

[Jane Marie]

So how did you do business wise?

[Brandi Hadfield]

So I ended up working my way up to the top 1.6% of the.

[Jane Marie]

Company, which in how many years?

[Brandi Hadfield]

I was in and out over the span of 10 years.

[Jane Marie]

Whoa.

[Brandi Hadfield]

Yeah, the first few years I couldn't crack 500amonth. And remember I'm buying all these supplements and going to conference. I was at a negative for years.

[Jane Marie]

Right.

[Brandi Hadfield]

And then I've shared this before, but in Ontario we had a program that was government funded which was like a business school. The government would pay you the equivalent of like your maternity leave benefits for a year where you would go to a business school and they would actually help set you up to start a legitimate business. And multi level marketing businesses didn't count. But I took this as my out.

[Jane Marie]

Like I shopping around for the thing that seemed legitimate enough. Were you nervous about what to tell your upline or something? Like who were you? Okay, yeah, tell me about that.

[Brandi Hadfield]

Yeah, yeah. Because I spent so much time with them and because I felt guilt and I felt like they were pouring into me and all and they had spent so much time with me and were counting on me, it felt difficult to sever ties. But then I felt like, okay, this is a real like black and white reason that I can leave because it's just not making sense financially. I'm not, we're not, we're just getting further in the whole. And I needed to be bringing in income.

[Jane Marie]

You were top 1.6%. How much were you bringing in?

[Brandi Hadfield]

Not at that point.

[Jane Marie]

Oh, okay. Not at that point.

[Brandi Hadfield]

Then when I left, started school and I was going to start an actual business supporting families with the certifications that I held. And then when I was going in the world and doing that work, I realized that these coaching certifications just are not enough that I was, I was feeling like, you know, they're coming to me for this, but what they could really use is a great psychotherapist. And so I wanted to be that so that then I went to school for that. And then when my, I had to take a maternity leave when my second son was born and we moved into the small town For a period of time. And then I've struggled with postpartum anxiety and health issues. And at a certain vulnerable breaking point, when my second born was around 2 and I wasn't going to school, I had taken a break. So I. I actually contacted them that.

[Jane Marie]

Second time to get back in. Yeah.

[Brandi Hadfield]

And I said, I want to basically get on the whole regime, the way of living the lifestyle, because I was remembering what my health was coming in and I missed being surrounded by that kind of positivity, I guess you could say. So I came back and I felt bad.

[Jane Marie]

Were you isolated socially at that time?

[Brandi Hadfield]

Yes, I was very isolated socially. We had moved to a small town like my hometown, so we. We weren't in Toronto, but my husband still worked in Toronto, so he was commuting. And some days I was just solo parenting with a baby and five and six year old. And it was really. That was like the hardest time in my whole parenting experience was those years.

[Jane Marie]

So you were kind of craving like the getting recognized.

[Brandi Hadfield]

Yeah.

[Jane Marie]

By selling Jesus juice or whatever it is.

[Brandi Hadfield]

Yeah. And I was homeschooling my firstborn at the time. And at a homeschool group, I met somebody who was very evangelical, who ended up being part of my downline. And then there was like this enmeshed friendship, part of it, which is the complicated relationship, the people in your downline. It's so unboundaried. In psychotherapy, you learn about dual relationships and how if somebody's your client, they shouldn't also be your friend or your partner or whatever because it makes it too messy and toxic. And that's exactly the dynamic that MLMs thrive on because it does make it very enmeshed and tangly and hard.

[Jane Marie]

And then you avoid getting away from it because it's already too messy.

[Brandi Hadfield]

Yeah, it just feels. Yeah, it just.

[Jane Marie]

Can you describe the feeling that you get from your upline encouraging you to recruit those people?

[Brandi Hadfield]

Yeah.

[Jane Marie]

And then what happens when you do recruit your nearest and dearest? What happens to the relationship and how does it affect your experience with the mlm?

[Brandi Hadfield]

Well, I never recruited my very best closest friends or any of my family members.

[Jane Marie]

Nailed it.

[Brandi Hadfield]

And that ended up being like a pretty protective factor because when I left, like I had people that I still had very close friendships with. It wasn't like completely starting over, which is surprising that I still stayed in for so long. So I would recruit, you know, like a mom friend. And that's where it became hard because then you're just spending so much time together. And for me.

[Jane Marie]

And are you Calling them all the time, like almost there for this, you know, like you're kind of being like a cheerleader for everybody. What did that look like for you?

[Brandi Hadfield]

For sure, we would have our overall group, team, nutrition, tenacity, and then my group, like the dream life team. And then once you get to. It's okay. I laugh myself as well. When you get to a certain point in leadership. Then I was part of literally the special leader chat. It was called like so and so's special leader chat, which was really intense.

[Jane Marie]

Meaning what?

[Brandi Hadfield]

Like tough love. Then there's like a team call every single week and. And then there will be bigger team calls like for the greater, you know, upline, and then team retreats, which you all have to pay for. This just really makes me angry as I think about it in retrospect, because you're striving to grow and be a better leader and, and eventually make an income. And one of the things that would be presented to us, for example, is this special training by a renowned self help person who everybody knows and you.

[Jane Marie]

Want to whisper it to me? We can go off the record for this one. We'll bleep it. What is it? Who is.

[Brandi Hadfield]

Okay. She didn't want to be affiliated with it. So like she, she only agreed to be part of this if it would never be written anywhere.

[Jane Marie]

Oh my God. I am not surprised. But also I do want to know how that check was.

[Brandi Hadfield]

Oh yeah, exactly. So it was like if you get to this position and have this amount of volume, then you can get this special leadership development course. And they was like really talked up. And then I strive for it. Like I worked my ass off in Canada. There were different rules and like I got it as far as the American rules, but I didn't get it for the Canadian rules. And then my upline fought for me to get it. And so I get it and it a hundred dollars. Like I have to pay.

[Jane Marie]

Like it's just another getting the opportunity to spend money.

[Brandi Hadfield]

Yeah. For the opportunity for busy work and spending money.

[Jane Marie]

Did you go?

[Brandi Hadfield]

It was all online. Oh, she's just watching recordings of her talking and doing these exercises. Like talk to someone you're too scared to talk to on your chicken list. And what's a chicken list?

[Jane Marie]

I don't know what that is.

[Brandi Hadfield]

Well, Jean Marie, you would be on my chicken list because somebody with influence who you feel like, oh, like I don't know if they would want to be friends with me, but they would be so awesome. That's somebody who's on your Chicken list.

[Jane Marie]

Wow. Who came up with chicken list?

[Brandi Hadfield]

I have no. I bet you it's something that's shared in multiple MLMs.

[Jane Marie]

Just adding it to the list, because we also. I discovered the whole drip list thing with Arbonne. I don't know if they came dripping.

[Brandi Hadfield]

Yeah, dripping on. Loving on. We used to say you just keep loving on them. And I thought it was so creepy, like, humping a leg or just like, love bombing.

[Jane Marie]

Like, weird.

[Brandi Hadfield]

Literally love bombing. But we call it loving on.

[Jane Marie]

And then the chicken list is like, you're daring yourself to speak to these people. Okay, so you're chicken listing people.

[Brandi Hadfield]

So, yeah. So I come back after the whole vulnerable state and back in my small town with a second child deferring my education. I come crawling back, and I'm like, I'm so sorry I ever quit on my dreams. And they're like, yep, one of the things they did was give me free leads. And I think it's because I was this person who would do 120%. So if you gave me a lead, I would, like, call them, like, immediately on the spot. I would do a great job with them. I'd be able to easily flip them over.

[Jane Marie]

Close the deal.

[Brandi Hadfield]

Yeah, close the deal. So the reality is, like, there really isn't that many people. Like, there really is a finite amount of people. So the only way to get ahead is if you get some. If you come in with some sort of advantage or you're given an advantage. And so I'm given this advantage because I'm golden child behavior. And that was another. Another reason why I felt guilt and felt like, well, they're really trying to help me out. And then I'm repeating that behavior to my downline, trying to give them advantages like buying them sales. And, like, it's just so mucky.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah.

[Brandi Hadfield]

But I come back, and I end up growing quicker the second time than the first time where I was stuck stagnant at $500. Second time I come, within three months, I hit comma club, which means I got, like, a thousand dollars Canadian for a whole month's worth of work. But as I share, congratulations.

[Jane Marie]

I don't know.

[Brandi Hadfield]

Well, it's like one of the milestones that are greatly celebrated. You've got this reality where if you actually took a moment and work it out, you're getting paid less than minimum wage. But congratulations, Brandi, you just got a 67% increase on your pay. That never happens in corporate America.

[Jane Marie]

And how many years was this from the time you joined to the time you hit $1,000 a month. And then also was it minus expenses?

[Brandi Hadfield]

Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no.

[Jane Marie]

Okay, okay. So you're spending money still in this business and you're getting a check for 900. Wow.

[Brandi Hadfield]

You know how Stephen Hassan talks about in cults like fear induction, there is a lot of that where, you know, they're talking about every disease and autoimmune condition and cancer imaginable and painting this, this tale of how if everyone could just basically flood their bodies, quote, with massive amounts of nutrition, then, you know, we wouldn't have so much disease. And they use videos with sad music. And you know, what if I never approached my friend whose daughter was having open heart surgery in this, like, it's heavy duty, this kind of fear induction where I'm buying it for people because I'm like, I felt that sure that it would make a difference.

[Jane Marie]

Wow.

[Brandi Hadfield]

Which if I feel like an idiot.

[Jane Marie]

Did you ever feel a difference drinking this stuff, taking this stuff?

[Brandi Hadfield]

So they would say eating it because it's food.

[Jane Marie]

Oh, sorry. Did you?

[Brandi Hadfield]

Okay.

[Jane Marie]

Wasn't it like liquids and powders, though?

[Brandi Hadfield]

They're encapsulated, so it's like this tiny amount. There's been. McGill University in Toronto has done like a debunking of the science of juice plus, and they actually showed how it's really like the equivalent antioxidants of a bite of an apple a day. So, like, you could literally say an apple a day keeps the doctor away is more sound than what they're saying.

[Jane Marie]

When I think of, like food in a capsule, I just think of Soylent Green, which is a whole other gross thing. But. So did you ever feel anything?

[Brandi Hadfield]

So the first time I had come in, I was already like, totally immersed in health and nutrition, so I was already taking a greens powder. No, I didn't feel anything right away, but I was like, okay, I'm just swapping this for that. And I'm being my own customer and I'm just explaining the benefits of. Of whole food nutrition.

[Lisa]

Say hello to Mia.

[Brandi Hadfield]

Hey there.

[Lisa]

Mia runs a pet grooming service in Chicago. But getting new clients was rough until.

[Acast Advertiser]

I started using Acast. I recorded my ad targeted pet owners in the area and let Acast do the rest. Now people all over the city know about my grooming services.

[Lisa]

Mia's business is looking sharp. What's your secret for happy pets and happy clients?

[Acast Advertiser]

A fresh cut, a friendly vibe, and a well placed podcast ad.

[Lisa]

Get the word out about your business through Acast. Visit go acast.com advertise to get started.

[Jane Marie]

So how did it fall apart? How did you leave?

[Brandi Hadfield]

So during the pandemic, there was lockdown and the film industry shut down. And my husband works in the film industry, so he was home. And we didn't have that full income, so I was working extra. And it was a perfect storm for multi level marketing. Like, everybody's business was booming because sadly people's vulnerabilities were being exploited. I was just hustling my heart out, thinking I was changing the world, and. And then I just hit a wall where I burnt out. And I was like, shit. I actually had. One of my team members was concerned about her daughter's use of her phone. And so that had me looking at my kids and their relationships to screens and my own relationship to my phone and how I was always on my phone and my kids were always playing. Like we were all in the same roof, but we were all separated. And I thought, we're going to just take like a screen free 30 days and reconnect as a family. And that was like, when I wasn't on the team meetings, like, constantly connected with these people every single day. It was like a huge exhale. And then I fell into a depression. Like, I was just got into a funk and I didn't know what was wrong with me. So I started just asking myself, like, what do I want to do? Like, I'm gonna draw birds. I'm gonna challenge myself to draw a bird a day for 100 days.

[Jane Marie]

I'm finding, talking to people that you're all like, everyone who's been higher up in these companies and then leaves. You're all still the person who likes to, like, set a goal or make a list and accomplish everything on it. Like, there has to be some structure to your existence.

[Brandi Hadfield]

Yeah, I. I'm actually in the process of trying to create a nonprofit for commercial cult recovery. We started our first peer support group meeting last month. So, you know, it does follow that pattern of, like, I feel, you know, like I've learned something important and now I'm going to pay it forward and help other people.

[Jane Marie]

Well, I've seen videos that you've made about, you know, just like, how scammy the wellness world can be. When did your skepticism around that start?

[Brandi Hadfield]

For me, the very prescriptive way that we were told to eat ended up for me becoming disordered eating. And that was very difficult to disentangle from because in addition to being fed a lot of the power of beautiful produce, we would also be fed, like, the dangers of dairy and how it's inflammatory and it's one of the. Gluten and dairy are the two of the most inflammatory foods. My son is celiac, so we already have a gluten free home. But I was still developing food phobias and to start eating dairy again for, for example, was difficult because I was afraid that it was going to like, make me arthritic and all of these things based on the trainings and videos and indoctrination that I had endured for all of those years. But food control is, is part of the behavior control.

[Jane Marie]

I now realize, like controlling what you eat is a way to control you in the cult.

[Brandi Hadfield]

Yeah. Because if you can successfully control one area, like if you can successfully control the information that somebody is exposed to, then the other things become easier to shift. So if you can successfully make somebody follow a very strict diet, they're going to be more liable to follow you in these other ways as well. So it just makes the member more malleable, essentially.

[Jane Marie]

So. Yeah. Looking at that type of eating, have you heard of orthorexia?

[Brandi Hadfield]

Yeah.

[Jane Marie]

Would you call it that?

[Brandi Hadfield]

Absolutely.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah.

[Brandi Hadfield]

So that is what I was dealing with when I was coming out, in addition to all of the other aspects of recovery.

[Jane Marie]

Can you describe what it is?

[Brandi Hadfield]

You're. You're obsessed with the purity and naturalness of your food. So you're going to be like obsessively looking at the ingredients and you might not eat something if it's not going to fit within the parameters of what your prescribed lifestyle is. And so it causes stress and anxiety and it's actually more unhealthy than if you just eat the potato chips or.

[Acast Advertiser]

Right.

[Jane Marie]

You know. Right.

[Brandi Hadfield]

I'm still really finding my way out of the wellness world because it was such a huge part of my identity. And it's so. It's like trying to find the gray, the gray area. And that's been difficult hearing that like.

[Jane Marie]

Making someone or encouraging someone to have an eating disorder is kind of part of the plan or, you know, part of how called succeed. Like, I knew that there was disordered eating and diet culture happening, but.

[Brandi Hadfield]

Yeah.

[Jane Marie]

And you get all that when you're pregnant too. So you were like, right in this perfect spot of like having to listen to a bunch of other experts on a thing.

[Brandi Hadfield]

Yeah. And I can lean on the hypochondriac side. So it was more that for me, it wasn't like I need to be as fit as possible, was like I need to not die and not get cancer.

[Jane Marie]

But then that. Yeah, but then that turns into disordered eating. And that's, you know.

[Brandi Hadfield]

Yeah, 100%.

[Jane Marie]

So tell me about some of the most interesting things that you've learned in your studies now that you're hopefully becoming a expert in this world of getting out of these sort of coercive control groups. Like what are your. What were the aha moments throughout that training?

[Brandi Hadfield]

Something that I really want to explore more when I working on my thesis next year is about borderline personality organization and pathological narcissism. And I had this light bulb moment that I'm really dying to explore more, where I propose that multi level marketing companies induce, or commercial cults in general purposely induce disassociation, denial and narcissistic grandiosity. So they're almost. Not almost, they are with their systems, with their training, with their events, with their indoctrination, creating little narcissists. Because that's the only way to survive in that world is being disassociated, denial and narcissistic grandiosity.

[Jane Marie]

Believe it, achieve it, and every man for himself. Can you talk more about that? I mean, I've been wondering that since day one of making this show. Like, why do the same types of characters, namely megalomaniacs and narcissists, start companies like this or join companies like this? What's the common thread here? But what you're saying is they may not have that in common at the beginning, but the ethos of these companies creates those type of personality traits.

[Brandi Hadfield]

Yeah. I'm not sure if you heard about the recent Arbonne where the upline was having her downline make foot porn on Instagram. Yeah, I wrote a substack about it.

[Jane Marie]

What happened?

[Brandi Hadfield]

So there is an Arbonne upline. She's like this gorgeous woman who feels like the girl at the sleepover who would like dare you to do things and egg you on and make you feel like you were a prude if you didn't do what she wanted you to do. That's the kind of vibe, show your.

[Jane Marie]

Boobs and then they put itching powder in your sleeping bag.

[Brandi Hadfield]

Yeah. And she's got this downline, who is a more relatable type of person. So her upline with like coaching her was like, what are you willing to do? Like, show me that you're willing to get uncomfortable, you're willing to do whatever. And so we're gonna start by pushing your boundaries by doing foot content, because why not? What are you willing to do? Let's see if you're willing to do.

[Jane Marie]

That for Arbonne no, not for Arbonne. But, like, it's not possible.

[Brandi Hadfield]

No, just like, on her Instagram, it's all down. She's taken it all down since it's been uncovered.

[Jane Marie]

But do you love Arbonne enough that you would do foot fetish videos?

[Brandi Hadfield]

Yeah, it's really weird, but this is the kind of thing that I'm seeing, like, just in the wild. Like, this is how the uplines are feeling. Feeling quite just about the way that they're treating their downlines. That wasn't the vibe within Juice Plus. It was more like this martyr, like, mama on a mission. It was a different flavor. The Arbonne stuff is a whole other flavor. The enagic stuff is a whole other flavor. But there's this common thread that I see in these boss babes where they do seem to truly believe that if you believe it hard enough, it will come to be. And if it doesn't come to be for you, you stood in your own way, which is, I think, pretty sociopathic way to treat a person.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah.

[Brandi Hadfield]

So they're almost training the empathy out of you. And that was part of my leaving as well, is that I was just seeing people in my downline who were doing everything and who it wasn't happening for. And I wasn't fully buying that it was their mindset getting in the way. Now that I'm further out, I see. Okay, it fully wasn't a mindset issue. It fully was. The system is designed in this way. And there was a point where I was asking like, this is my ratio. This is my team. This is how many people are at this position. Like, this seems really bad. And this leader was like, no, this is perfect. This is exactly what you want. You need to have people down here, basically, or else it doesn't work. Like, he was basically saying the quiet part out loud. But in the environment that I was in when I was receiving this information was at this large group awareness training where I'm getting this privileged time with this tippy top leader. In a quick moment, I wasn't hearing the truth within that. I was just like, okay, I'm good, I'm good, I'm good. Okay. You know, well, it's kind of like.

[Jane Marie]

For there to be rich people, they have to be poor people. For there to be good people, there have to be bad people. Like that. Very binary thinking. Of course, there's a bunch of people at the bottom of this. And the more narcissistic they become, the better their chances of the more narcissistic.

[Brandi Hadfield]

You are as a leader, the more apt you are to continue drinking the Kool Aid and just stay in and bury your head in the sand and.

[Jane Marie]

Wear blinders and not worry about those people at the bottom.

[Brandi Hadfield]

Yeah, yeah. Because they. Yeah, exactly.

[Jane Marie]

So what would you do in your practice going forward? Like, how do you go out into that world and impart that knowledge to people? Or is this still something people just have to come to on their. Like, are you facing an industry that's like basically every one of your best friends that doesn't want to break up with their shitty boyfriend and there's no convincing them? Or do you think that there's education that can be done?

[Brandi Hadfield]

Yeah, I don't think that there's. Like the way that I approach it is I'm not trying to change anybody's mind. I'm not never approaching it from like, let me convince you that what you're doing is wrong or anything like that. But it's more like, here's the information and the psycho education when you need it. Because when, when you do, when you're coming out of it, you're then looking like. I was searching multi level marketing recovery and I wasn't really finding anything there. So I want to have, I want to have support and, and information and education so that when those available and promote those resources that I now know are there, like Cutting Ties by Megan Williams for example. I want to help promote those things for the people that need them.

[Jane Marie]

And also there needs to be more.

[Brandi Hadfield]

Yeah.

[Jane Marie]

The fact that you've named that. I've read all the books you've named and I'm not even in an mlm. Like there aren't enough is what I'm saying. It's like a limited pile of resources there. Well, there are the cult books, but I don't think Most people in MLMs identify as being part of a cult.

[Brandi Hadfield]

Well, I wrote a book called Commercial Culture, A Multi Level Marketing Memoir, but it's still on my computer.

[Jane Marie]

Get it off your computer. Come on.

[Brandi Hadfield]

I hit my page count, I hit my word count, but it needs to be edited and a lot of work needs to be done and I'm kind of. I want it to be done right when it's ready.

[Jane Marie]

Thank you so much for the time.

[Brandi Hadfield]

Thank you.

[Jane Marie]

Bye. That's it for this week. We have a tip line open. Call us at 323-2481-488-323-2481, and leave us a message about anything that you think is funky out there. What's going on, guys? Talk to me.

[Brandi Hadfield]

ACAST powers the World's Best Podcasts Here's a show that we recommend.

[Knox and Jamie]

Do you like being educated on things that entertain but don't matter? Well, then you need to be listening to the Podcast with Knox and Jamie. Every Wednesday we put together an episode dedicated to delightful idiocy to give your brain a break from all the serious and important stuff.

[Brandi Hadfield]

Whether we're deep diving a classic movie.

[Jane Marie]

Dissecting the true meanings behind the newest.

[Brandi Hadfield]

Slang, or dunking on our own listeners.

[Jane Marie]

For their bad takes or cringy stories, we always approach our topics with humor and just a little bit of Sideways.

[Brandi Hadfield]

And we end every episode with recommendations.

[Jane Marie]

On all the best new movies, books.

[Brandi Hadfield]

TV shows, or music.

[Knox and Jamie]

To find out more, just search up the Podcast with Knox and Jamie wherever you listen to podcasts and prepare to make Wednesday your new favorite day of the week.

[Brandi Hadfield]

ACAST helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere.

[Jane Marie]

Acast.com.