The Importance of Feminine Forever By, Oh God... Robert Wilson?

Summary

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The Dream – "The Importance of Feminine Forever By, Oh God... Robert Wilson?"

Host: Jane Marie | Guest: Danielle Friedman
Release Date: August 22, 2025

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Overview

In this episode, host Jane Marie welcomes journalist Danielle Friedman to unpack the thorny subject of menopause, its misunderstood biology, historical neglect in medical research, and the modern industry that’s exploded around treating its symptoms. Using humor and candid conversation, they focus on how old patriarchal structures and (sometimes predatory) modern trends both shape how women perceive – and are taught to manage – menopause today. The episode weaves personal anecdotes with reporting, offering clarity, frustration, and hope around women’s health.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Personal Introductions & Framing

• Jane Marie announces the show’s reboot and candidly introduces her own perimenopause, setting a personal and humorous tone.
• Danielle Friedman describes her journalistic focus on women’s health, wellness, and the societal narratives around shame and the female body.

  “My work has been focused on... shame around women's health and women's bodies and how shame can interfere with our ability as women to advocate for ourselves, get quality medical care, be included in research.” (Danielle Friedman, 04:13)

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2. Menopause: Science, Stigma & What We Don’t Know

• The basic definitions:

  • Menopause is diagnosed when it’s been 12 months since a woman’s last period.
  • Perimenopause is a vaguely defined, understudied phase marked by fluctuating hormones that precedes menopause.
  • Surgical menopause also acknowledged (e.g., ovary removal) (06:53–07:39).

• Historical lack of research:

  • Prior to 1993, women were largely excluded from clinical trials; male data used as default (07:44–08:57).
  • Menopause and much of women’s health dismissed as “too complicated” or “irrelevant” to research agendas.
  • Cultural stigma rooted in patriarchal views about women’s value only during reproductive years.
  • Noted: Humans, elephants, and possibly bees are among few species experiencing post-reproductive life (10:01–10:18).

  “Women’s bodies have been seen as too complicated because of all of our fluctuations... Menopause especially has suffered because of some of the cultural and medical stigmas around it.” (Danielle Friedman, 07:44)

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3. “Feminine Forever” and the Rise & Fall of Hormone Therapy

• Introduction of hormone therapy in the mid-century, popularized by Robert Wilson’s book Feminine Forever in the 1960s.

  • Wilson’s book pathologized menopause, describing postmenopausal women as “chemically castrated” and undesirable.
  • He was funded by estrogen manufacturers, a conflict of interest (11:00–11:55).
  • Hormone therapy use soared, despite lack of research.

• The 2002 Women’s Health Initiative (WHI) study was cut short after initial findings suggested increased risks (e.g., breast cancer), causing a “chilling effect” on both prescribing and research (12:25–13:49).

  “He describes women who’ve gone through menopause as being like, chemically castrated and just... undesirable and useless. And by taking estrogen, you... will be a lot more pleasant for the men in their lives.” (Danielle Friedman, 11:14)

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4. Generational Shifts & The Demand for Better Care

• Gen X women began questioning the dogma, speaking out about symptoms, and demanding more research and better treatments (19:04–20:51).

  • Cultural willingness to publicly discuss women’s bodies has dramatically increased.
  • Direct challenge to the old “doctor knows best” mentality and medical patriarchy.

  “Suddenly women were questioning the data and the lack of treatment and... researchers... felt a little more emboldened to start recommending [hormone therapy] again, prescribing it again for certain women.” (Danielle Friedman, 19:38)

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5. What Does Menopause Look Like? Symptoms & Barriers

• Menopause/perimenopause can have “about a million” symptoms, from the classic hot flashes to sleep loss, cognitive fog, itchiness, sexual dysfunction, and even heart palpitations. Other distressing symptoms include vaginal dryness and painful sex (21:11–24:16).

  • Many women endure years of misdiagnosis, dismissal, or inappropriate treatment.
  • Education lag: As of last year, only 1/3 of OB-GYN residencies offered menopause curriculum (22:40).

  “If every step feels like you have a knife in your vagina... this is yet another reminder that it's not as simple as just like, get up and move.” (Danielle Friedman, 24:16)

• High risk of osteoporosis and bone fractures after menopause — 1 in 2 women will develop osteoporosis and most will suffer a fracture (24:49–25:08).

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6. Testosterone & Women: Fact vs. Fiction

• Declining testosterone in women is a slow process, bottoming out around age 60 with a slight increase afterwards (26:41).
  • No FDA-approved testosterone treatments for women; only proven benefit is in remedying low libido (26:56).
  • Many women struggle to access treatment, often requiring expensive compounding pharmacies.

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7. The Menopause Industrial Complex

• Menopause has become a booming industry, with celebrities (e.g. Naomi Watts, Halle Berry) and influencers normalizing menopause talk and pushing products (28:06–31:38).

  • Explosive growth in books, supplements, “beauty” products, and costly summits.
  • Many products lack scientific support; some practices seen as predatory.

  “It has definitely been... accelerated, normalized by celebrities... and a growing number of very powerful physician influencers... It's a multi-billion dollar industry... a massive crop of entrepreneurs has kind of risen up to basically offer solutions for women who might not be getting the help that they need from the mainstream medical system.” (Danielle Friedman, 28:21–29:54)

• Concern about misinformation and under-regulation, especially in the supplement sphere.

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8. Youth, Beauty, and the Tyranny of “Feeling Young”

• Hostile toward the idea that the goal of menopause therapies is to retain youth and “look hot” (34:22–35:48).

  • Old frameworks returning: some see this new wave as a return to “Feminine Forever”’s fixation on youth, sex appeal, and being “pleasant” for others.

  “Some of the experts I've interviewed have talked about how they see this as... literally... a return to Feminine Forever... where suddenly it wasn't just... feeling good... but also looking hot.” (Danielle Friedman, 35:20–35:48)

• Pendulum swing: Once silent, menopause is now almost over-hyped, sometimes with a “mania” and expectation that every woman should be doing everything to optimize herself.

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9. Judgment, Community, and Choice

• Women routinely judged at every life stage (37:21–37:50).
  • Intense debates about “natural” bodies vs. medical interventions.
  • Doctors and researchers caution against one-size-fits-all hormone therapy; stress need for personalization.
  • Even with the new era, very few (“around 4%”) of eligible women take hormone therapy (39:10).

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10. The Silence: Why Don’t We Talk About It?

• Menopause remains shrouded in shame and portrayed as an “old lady’s” problem, though it often starts earlier (40:37–41:04).

  • Rooted in sexism and ageism, perpetuates silence and suffering.

  “It’s sexism and ageism kind of just at their most potent in convincing women that menopause is something to be ashamed of and means they're... no longer relevant.” (Danielle Friedman, 41:04)

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11. Hopes for the Future

• Danielle and Jane agree: The best outcome is for rigorous, science-based care to prevail, crowding out “snake oil” and charlatan solutions (41:46–42:14).

• The challenge is balancing a genuinely supportive, evidence-based approach with resisting both medical neglect and the unrelenting pressure for women to remain youthful and perfect.

  “More science. Less snake oil.” (Jane Marie & Danielle Friedman, 42:14)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “We are deteriorating and we do not like it and we are complaining very loudly at the moment.”
  — Jane Marie (01:34)
• “As the cheesy saying goes, you know, menopause is hot. Menopause became hot. It's a multi-billion dollar industry.”
  — Danielle Friedman (29:26)
• “When are we going to get a break? Give us a break!... Mania. You know, it suddenly... feels like the pendulum has swung perhaps too far... now... giving women yet another... list of a million things they need to be doing to be acceptable.”
  — Danielle Friedman (35:48)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:34]–[04:06]: Personal framing, shame, and the journalism gap
• [06:53]–[09:36]: Defining menopause and the R&D gap
• [11:00]–[13:49]: Feminine Forever, hormone therapy history, WHI
• [19:04]–[20:51]: Gen X and a new era of advocacy
• [21:11]–[26:40]: Symptoms, diagnostic challenges, and bone health
• [26:41]–[27:57]: Testosterone—Fact and friction in women’s health
• [28:06]–[31:38]: Rise of the menopause industry
• [34:22]–[35:48]: Industry critiques and “the return of Feminine Forever”
• [37:21]–[39:25]: Judgment, personalization, and medical communication
• [40:37]–[41:28]: Silence, stigma, and the real timeline
• [41:46]–[42:14]: “More science, less snake oil”
• [43:16]–[43:49]: Hope for the future and closing thoughts

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Tone, Takeaways, and Why Listen

Jane and Danielle balance irreverence and frustration with thorough reporting, underscoring how menopause is both a symptom and an amplifier of the ways women’s health is overlooked, commercialized, and policed. The episode is a guide for listeners to both understand the newly noisy menopause landscape and to advocate for science while pushing back on shaming and predatory solutions.

Essential message: Demand better science, support each other, reject shame, and don’t buy every new “miracle” cream or supplement. Your experience is valid—and you don’t have to suffer alone.

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Transcript

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[Jane Marie]

I'm Jane Marie and this is the dream. Guess what? I'm 47 and in perimenopause. I'm assuming a lot of you are too, even though you may not know it and probably don't want to know it. Honestly, part of me recommends not getting diagnosed for the simple fact that once you do, your entire algorithm becomes about menopause. I'm talking nonstop back to back content from or about women who bleed or don't bleed in many different ways as their body lurches ever closer to the grave. We are deteriorating and we do not like it and we are complaining very loudly at the moment. And we're also quite interested in that one cream that's supposed to erase menopause from the front of my face, which is a place I wasn't aware it lived. But now all I see when I look in the mirror are hollowed out eye sockets and cracking itching skin. Today we're talking to a journalist who's been reporting on women's bodies for over 20 years, and we're gonna get to the bottom of what the hubbub's about.

[Danielle Friedman]

My name is Danielle Friedman, and I am a health journalist and contributor to the New York Times well section. I am based in New York City and I am 44 years old. So in light of this conversation, I'm very attuned to what might lie ahead for me. Okay, great.

[Jane Marie]

Will you describe your beat?

[Danielle Friedman]

Generally speaking, I report about women's health, and I have been an editor or reporter in the women's health space for over 20 years. This is relevant to what I write about now. A few years ago, I published a book about the history of women's fitness culture called let's Get Physical, which was really kind of a feminist look at how exercise evolved from something that was seen as really inappropriate and subversive for women to becoming almost a requirement of womanhood. So my reporting for the time since the book came out in 2022 has been this kind of nice fusion of the worlds that the book covered. I also now write about wellness generally and often how those things impact women's health.

[Jane Marie]

Well, I'm going to ask you the question I hate answering the most. What drew you to this work?

[Danielle Friedman]

I would say for many years, my work has been focused on, and I have been personally interested in shame around women's health and women's bodies and how shame can interfere with our ability as women to advocate for ourselves, get quality medical care, be included in research. And I have sort of followed that thread through different parts of a woman's life cycle. And it was really fascinating a couple years ago to see the conversation around menopause sort of start to explode and in some ways see the kind of the veil of shame removed. But then also, I was just really interested in some of the contradictions and complexities that were emerging with this conversation.

[Jane Marie]

Was there anyone you could look to when you first started looking into this as someone who's, like, doing the kind of work you wanted to do in this area?

[Danielle Friedman]

Well, in I think it was 2023, Susan Dominus published her really groundbreaking story for the New York Times Magazine. The headline was Women have been Misled about Menopause. And it looked at the conversation around hormone therapy and ways in which women had been underserved. So that piece was definitely had an influence on me. I also just. I mean, this is a little bit incidental, but kind of like right before this Whole menopause conversation exploded. And I think it was a few months before. Actually, it was in the year before the Susan Dominus piece. My book editor had sent me an early copy of a menopause guide that the same imprint was publishing, you know, asking if I would read it, to provide. To provide a blurb. And I happened to read it while I was pregnant with my younger son. And that was really my first introduction to menopause. It was kind of fascinating because I was dealing with. It felt like many of the same hormonal issues, but from a different perspective. And so that was kind of my initial education. That was for the book Hot and Bothered by Jancy Dunn and then the Dominus article. And, yeah, so I would say, I guess I really had relied on journalists who I trusted.

[Jane Marie]

As we get started here, then, because we're still demystifying this thing. What is menopause?

[Danielle Friedman]

Yeah, well, with menopause, it's technically, you have entered menopause when it's been 12 months since your last period. Perimenopause is much more kind of vaguely defined, very poorly understood. There's very little to no research on it. And it's the years leading up to menopause when women experience hormonal changes and can experience some of the. Can basically become symptomatic as a result of changing hormone levels. I also just want to mention, as far as menopause, it can be surgically induced as well. So if you have your ovaries removed.

[Jane Marie]

Right, so you just mentioned that it's not very well studied. What's up with that?

[Danielle Friedman]

Perimenopause or menopause or all of it. Okay. Women's health historically has been very understudied. It was only in 1993 that the NIH required that women be included in clinical trials. Before that point, women were often. Well, I mean, this is still true to a large extent today, but a lot of research that was only performed on men, the findings were then used to treat women clinically. Women's bodies have been seen as too complicated because of all of our fluctuations to be included in trials. So in general, we don't have a great track record as far as research into women's bodies.

[Jane Marie]

I think. Also, isn't the statistic also that it's young white men that they do almost every study on?

[Danielle Friedman]

I believe so. Yeah. Yeah.

[Jane Marie]

Cool.

[Danielle Friedman]

And so in general, we're still sort of making up for catching up for so much less time in terms of properly studying women's bodies. Menopause, I mean, like, so Many aspects of women's bodies that could be viewed as unappealing to men or not in the service of men's needs and desires. I think menopause especially has suffered because of some of the cultural and medical stigmas around it.

[Jane Marie]

Because we're not. It's a period of life where we're not useful anymore.

[Danielle Friedman]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, yeah. Reproductively, that ability to bear children goes away and then who cares? Yeah, yeah. I mean, I mean, sadly, at least historically, you know, aren't we one of.

[Jane Marie]

Just a few species that stays alive after menopause? Ooh, I believe there's only like us and elephants and bees or something like that.

[Danielle Friedman]

That does ring a bell. I would want it. I would have to fact like that. But I think you're right.

[Jane Marie]

I think that there's just like three species on Earth that like, don't die the minute they can't make babies.

[Danielle Friedman]

And you raise a good point too, which is that as we, you know, we are living so much longer into the menopausal stage of our life than women were a few generations ago.

[Jane Marie]

Right.

[Danielle Friedman]

So the fact, you know this, you.

[Jane Marie]

Can spend half of it.

[Danielle Friedman]

Yes, exactly. Which is, you know, in the scope of history, relatively new. But, you know, I'll just. Just to give a little bit more context, so. And again, this might be biting off more than I should be chewing right now, but I'll, you know, I'll. I'll just give you a quick overview.

[Jane Marie]

It's not live radio.

[Danielle Friedman]

Don't worry. Okay, so just looking at kind of the arc of. Of research into menopause, interestingly to me, anyway, the first kind of hormonal treatments were prescribed to women in the 40s and 50s, but it wasn't until the 60s that it really took off, you know, basically estrogen as a treatment for menopause. And it was thanks to this book, which is really something called Feminine Forever by an OB GYN named Robert Wilson. And this book, I mean, I actually have a copy sitting next to me right now. I had to own this just so that I could kind of see it with my own eyes. But, you know, he describes women who've gone through menopause as being like, chemically castrated and just completely kind of undesirable and useless. And by taking estrogen, you know, will not only feel better, look better, be more sexually appealing, but, yeah, generally just be a lot more pleasant for the men in their lives. It came out years later that he was also being funded by the drug company that produced the type of estrogen that he was selling. So after this book, taking hormones became extremely popular, but there was still not a lot of research. And then in the mid-90s, recognizing that so many women were taking hormone therapy, the NIH launched its first massive study into the effect of hormones on women's health, famously, in 2002. That study, the Women's Health Initiative, was cut short because of some risks that turned out later to be kind of overstated. But to women's health when it came to breast cancer and cardiovascular issues. And after that, there was just a major chilling effect, both on women taking the medication, but even on research. So it's been this real. There's been this pendulum swing with women and hormones and research going back for 80 years.

[Jane Marie]

I think many of us, and myself included, who are entering perimenopause or menopause had moms that were in that same position around 2002 when that study came out. My mom would have been in her mid-40s anyway when the news started swirling that if you did hormone replacement, you would get cancer. So then all of our moms became complete bitches in the early aughts.

[Danielle Friedman]

Um, yeah. And so. So basically, yeah, at that point, the one really effective tool for managing the symptoms of menopause all but kind of went away. And in its place, there's a lot more to say about this Prozac. Well, yeah, I mean, it was basically like the. Yeah, Antidepressants, anti anxiety drugs were sort of the only real clinical solution. So it's only years later that there has been a sort of re evaluation of that data.

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[Danielle Friedman]

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[Danielle Friedman]

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[Jane Marie]

What turned the tables back to, you know, reality and science? Like, did something happen?

[Danielle Friedman]

You know, I think what started to happen was as Gen X women, you know, entered perimenopause, entered menopause, were struggling and began, you know, speaking to their doctors about what the options were and were often dismissed or told. It was just sort of like this is a natural process. You just have to deal with it. There was, there was outrage that hadn't really existed or at least existed as, as loudly and as publicly with previous generations. I think, you know, this is, there's really been a shift in the last, in the last few generations in terms of just kind of accepting the like, doctor always knows best. And medicine, you know, as we've talked about, has been so patriarchal. But I think thanks to a lot of cultural shifts, including just a much louder discourse around just like discussing all aspects of women's bodies, you know, destigmatizing all of these like normal life stages and demanding better. Suddenly women were questioning the data and the lack of treatment and that I think it's kind of like with more demand. Some of the researchers who had been studying hormone therapy even before the WHI felt a little more emboldened to start recommending it again, prescribing it again for certain women because we were kind of breaking free from this just really dominating narrative that hormone therapy was extremely dangerous.

[Jane Marie]

Well, let's talk about what menopause or perimenopause can look like. I can talk for days about what my early symptoms were, but aren't there something like 63 symptoms that have been Identified or something like a million things. Everything can be menopause, right?

[Danielle Friedman]

Yes.

[Jane Marie]

Okay.

[Danielle Friedman]

Yes, pretty much. I mean, you know, kind of the most classic symptoms are hot flashes, poor sleep, which is often a result of hot flashes keeping you up at night, brain fog, memory issues.

[Jane Marie]

What's brain fog? I never. I hear about it and we talk about it with like long Covid and stuff, but I'm like, what is it? Am I just. Is that just when I feel like a ding dong?

[Danielle Friedman]

Yeah. Like what? That's been my. Yeah, I mean, like I feel like I know it when I'm experiencing it, you know, And I think I definitely experienced it postpartum. Different people experience it differently, but just that feeling of kind of being underwater or as the name suggests, you're just not as sharp as you know you can be or as you've been in the past. And then there's, I mean, like you said, there's dozens of symptoms or symptoms that could be menopause. Some surprising ones like itchiness all over, weight gain. Oh, and also very heavy periods in the years leading up to menopause. A lot of these symptoms can feel really scary. And concerning heart palpitations and women have been historically dismissed by doctors, are told either it's all in their head or again prescribed an antidepressant or anti anxiety medication or they'll spend years trying to get a diagnosis when actually it was just part of menopause. But because of the lack of education and as of last year, only about a third of ob GYN residency programs, not even medical schools residency programs for ob GYN offered a menopause curriculum. Really? Yeah, yeah. Women end up kind of just going in circles for years. One condition that has now caught a lot of attention, gotten a lot of attention historically is it's genitourinary syndrome of menopause. And it's basically vaginal atrophy and dryness that occurs with the, you know, with the drop in estrogen and progesterone. And yes, I mean, I don't have to probably convince you on the surface that it sounds really unpleasant. But beyond just making sex painful or less enjoyable, it can also lead to chronic urinary tract infections in women. And especially as women really get older, those infections can be more serious and can lead to really consequential health issues. So there's that.

[Jane Marie]

And having a dry vagina, whether or not someone wants to put their penis in it, like, is uncomfortable.

[Danielle Friedman]

Yes, yes, yes. Living your life walking. Yes, yes. You know, and I mentioned, like I write about movement and exercise science a lot. And there are so many barriers. You know, this is yet another reminder that it's not as simple as just like, get up and move, you know, like if every step feels like you have a knife in your vagina. Osteoporosis and bone health is a big concern.

[Jane Marie]

I broke my foot a couple months ago doing the laundry.

[Danielle Friedman]

Ooh, there's. I want to say, you know, it's like 50% of women who have gone through menopause will break a bone at some point. I would want to check that.

[Jane Marie]

I checked it. And according to the Endocrine Society, one in two postmenopausal women will have osteoporosis. So that's 50%. And most will suffer a fracture during their lifetime. So if you haven't broken a bone yet, just wait.

[Danielle Friedman]

And, you know, there's really scary statistics too, about women, about falling, basically. And when you experience a hip fracture, you know, your chances of dying within a year once you get to a certain point, go dramatically up.

[Jane Marie]

Yeah.

[Danielle Friedman]

So. So pretty much everything that I've mentioned has to do with primarily with estrogen, but there's a big conversation happening now around testosterone for women as well. One thing that's kind of interesting, what I was surprised to learn, I assumed that testosterone, like estrogen, like, there was this big drop off at menopause, and in fact, women's testosterone, which, by the way, you know, obviously it's mostly associated with men, but is. Is crucial to menstrual cycle, to ovulating. We need it, you know, as much as men do. But it actually starts to decline very gradually from like a woman's 20s through age 60. And then women actually see a rise in testosterone again after age 60, which is sort of why you see maybe a. Of kind of like older grandmothers with chin hairs and receding.

[Jane Marie]

Interesting.

[Danielle Friedman]

Yeah, yeah. And there is a lot of misinformation out there about testosterone. And.

[Jane Marie]

Well, it's also not a part of the standard of care for hormone replacement therapy. Like, I can't get it through my insurance. I have to buy it from a compounding pharmacy. It's $200 a month.

[Danielle Friedman]

Oh, wow. Yeah. Well, there's no FDA approved testosterone for women in the U.S. yeah, for. For women, period. In the U.S. oh. And so, yeah, you either have to take, you know, you either your options are a compounded version or you take. You get a prescription for a male testosterone product and you take a tenth of it, basically. And, and I should just say the only thing that it has been scientifically proven to help with is low libido. And it helps in about 50 to 60% of women who take it for that purpose.

[Jane Marie]

My doctor said, though, it was more like energy during the day, not feeling that brain fog and that tired, exhausted feeling. I don't know if that, you know.

[Danielle Friedman]

Has been proven or anything, but many women report that. But officially, you know, officially it hasn't. We can't say that for sure.

[Jane Marie]

Can we talk a little bit about the industry around menopause? Like what's happening now? I feel like there's a lot of money being made all of a sudden by Naomi Watts.

[Danielle Friedman]

Yeah. And you know, several other celebrities as well. And it's all happened really fast. You know, it's, it's in the past like two to three years. So very suddenly the, the dialogue around menopause and perimenopause, you kind of went public and exploded and it was, it has definitely been kind of accelerated, normalized by celebrities like Naomi Watts and Halle Berry and women who I would say really defy the stereotypes that we've always had around menopause, as well as a growing number of very powerful physician influencers who are speaking out about menopause on social media, on Instagram and TikTok. There's been also, there's, I think I was sent maybe, I don't know, six to seven new books about menopause this year. So, so basically, you know, as the cheesy saying goes, you know, menopause is hot. Menopause became hot. It's a multi billion dollar industry. And in the past few years, as there's been more awareness, as women are saying, you know, sort of are feeling validated in their symptoms, a massive crop of entrepreneurs has kind of risen up to basically offer solutions for women who might not be getting the help that they need from the mainstream medical system. And it ranges, those solutions range everything from estrogen, face cream. I mean, Naomi Watts, hers is like scalp to that she calls it. So it's like from flaky scalp. Yeah, Nutrafol. I mean it basically spans everything from beauty products and face creams to supplements, I think are the biggest chunk of this, of this menopause gold rush that's happening. There are summits and conferences that women can pay hundreds of dollars to attend to learn about their bodies. I mean, and it's, it's, you know, I mean, on one hand, like how great that women are finally being taken seriously. But there is a lot of, really among, you know, among all of the, the commercialization, there's a lot of really predatory stuff happening. You know, the supplement industry is kind of notoriously, very lightly regulated. And among doctors, I mean among obgyns and women's health specialists who have been particularly those who have been treating menopausal women for a long time, they are very concerned about the misinformation. They see it as kind of a misinformation crisis.

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[Jane Marie]

One thing that I resent quite a bit around the menopause industry is the push for like to maintain youth. And I wish that people understood that like you get a belly when you go through menopause, you gain weight in your middle, your skin becomes dry and you wanna cut your hair off, which I just did, because you're sweating constantly and your hair is soaking wet all the time. And it feels awful for those things to just be like, for it to be understood that those things are happening not because you don't care about yourself or because you're letting yourself go. That's what I. With the Naomi Watts stuff and these celebrity menopause influencers, I feel like they're focusing on, you know, maintaining something that kind of can't be maintained. And I wish it was okay, you know.

[Danielle Friedman]

Yeah, yeah, well, and yeah, you know, as I've like, through my reporting, it's been really interesting. Some of the experts I've interviewed have talked about how they see this as they've literally said it's a return to Feminine Forever, the book from the 60s, you know, where suddenly it wasn't just, it's not just about, you know, feeling good and being heard and having our medical needs addressed, but also.

[Jane Marie]

Looking hot.

[Danielle Friedman]

Exactly, exactly. And yeah, I mean, I think one of the, just like the reactions that I've encountered regularly to this, to this push and this, this, you know, sort of emerging industry is like, you know, when are we going to find it? Like, when are we going to get a break? Give us a break. You know, it's just, I want, the word I'm wanting to say is like mania. You know, it suddenly it just feels like the pendulum has swung perhaps too far in the direction of now, you know, giving women yet another, like another list of a million things they need to be doing to be acceptable. So what has happened is since there's been this re evaluation of hormones and more of a recognition that actually for many, many women, they are both safe and they are extremely effective at managing symptoms and do allow them to live Their lives, again, feel like themselves. There are some very loud voices on social media that even if they offer disclaimers, sort of paint the picture that every woman should be on hormones. And if you're not or if you can't, you know, you will probably, you know, suffer as a result. And so it's kind of this culture of fear, honestly, like, but that happens.

[Jane Marie]

In every stage of womanhood. I feel like there's. And then there are women that scold me online for being on hormones. Like, why are you not doing what's natural for your body? Why aren't you just letting it happen? This is how God made you or whatever. But it's the same as, like, don't get an epidural.

[Danielle Friedman]

Oh, God, yeah, yeah.

[Jane Marie]

You know, like, have your baby at home. Why would you go to a hospital? Like, there's just so much judgment at every stage. Why. Why would you use tampons? Why not pads? You know, all of these, like.

[Danielle Friedman]

Right. And again, I mean, so much of it just comes down to choice. And like, when I've interviewed these longtime menopause researchers, the few kind of scientists who have been trying to fill this void with science and study women's health, what they're saying is they have. They're very frustrated because they have patients coming to them who are basically demanding, you know, hormones. And while they. These. The sort of older guard of physicians never saw themselves as they. They have been like, pro hormones for a very long time. But this idea that it's one size fits all and everybody's risk profile is a little bit different, and it's an individual. It should be a personalized conversation.

[Jane Marie]

I didn't know for a year and a half that I could have more estrogen. I didn't realize that the patches came in different doses. I didn't have any idea. I don't know why I thought or why I didn't think this through, but that once you're in perimenopause and you go on hormone replacement therapy, your natural hormones continue dropping. So the therapy you're getting from your supplement. Supplemental. Yeah. You might need more. It didn't occur to me until, like, way after I was back to experiencing horrible symptoms, you know, and the thing.

[Danielle Friedman]

Is, too, it is important, you know, it's important to keep in mind that, like, so there's. Doctors have stopped using the term hormone replacement therapy. Oh. They've replaced it with either just hormone therapy or mht, menopause hormone therapy.

[Jane Marie]

Okay.

[Danielle Friedman]

Because yes, everyone will experience a drop, you know, through menopause. But not everyone experiences symptoms and needs to have them replaced. You know, I think they're often. Estrogen is often talked about almost as if it were like thyroid hormones or insulin, where you need it to survive, it has to be at a certain level. Whereas different women will have totally different experiences based on just their genetics and biology. So, yes, it does help. Estrogen and hormone therapy is so helpful for so many women. And interestingly, only despite this conversation, as of last year, only about 4% of eligible women were on hormone therapy. So it's not like there's a problem with too many women now getting prescribed. But it is just important as a woman, you shouldn't feel like you have to go on it just because you've gone through menopause and you'll be at risk if you don't.

[Jane Marie]

Why don't we talk to each other about it?

[Danielle Friedman]

I think that women have really been conditioned to suffer in silence. Menopause has been the butt of jokes forever. You know, it's very much like golden girl style.

[Jane Marie]

And it's represented as something that happens much later in life than it actually does. That's another thing.

[Danielle Friedman]

Exactly. Yeah. And it really, I mean, I think, you know, not to be too cliche, but like, it's sexism and ageism kind of just at their most potent in convincing women that menopause is something to be ashamed of and means they're, they're old and undesirable and no longer relevant. Well.

[Jane Marie]

Part of me hopes that's true. Well, yeah, give me a break.

[Danielle Friedman]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jane Marie]

What, what do you hope happens with this whole menopause discussion? Like what's the best outcome of the craze?

[Danielle Friedman]

Well, I, I think generally, I think the more evidence based science that we have as to what works, the less of an opportunity that some of these other solutions that don't necessarily work, you know, the less of a chance that they'll thrive.

[Jane Marie]

Less room for charlatans.

[Danielle Friedman]

Yeah, exactly. More science. Less snake oil.

[Jane Marie]

There we go. That's the dream.

[Danielle Friedman]

Yes, yes. Something that's so interesting to me about this world is that among these physician influencers, a lot of what they discuss is kind of couched in the language of feminism and of sisterhood. But there's such kind of animosity toward anybody who questions them. And it's just anyone who questions them is kind of automatically written off as being sexist or being part of this old guard of physician who isn't taking women's concerns seriously.

[Jane Marie]

But when the whole world is stacked against you, you kind of have to come out swinging, you know, like.

[Danielle Friedman]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Jane Marie]

I understand that. I don't think it's cool, but I get having to have, like, a strong, you know, adamant take on things where no one has listened to us for hundreds of years.

[Danielle Friedman]

Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah. I think there's just some. Yeah, there's, like, in some cases, there's maybe a little bit of overcorrection happening, but better than nothing scenario. Yeah. It'll get us to where we need to be.

[Jane Marie]

Well, I really appreciate you talking. That was wonderful.

[Danielle Friedman]

I hope it was helpful. Super helpful.

[Jane Marie]

I mean, look, it's. It's a craze for a reason, right? Because it's fun talking about it. It's really interesting. But this has been really delightful and I appreciate you taking time out of your day to talk to me.

[Danielle Friedman]

My pleasure. Thank you so much.

[Jane Marie]

The dream is a production of Little Everywhere. We really love the calls that we've been getting from all of you. Some very, very cool stories out there, and we've been getting them on the show as fast as we can. But please keep the tips coming. It's so nice to hear from you, even if we don't get a chance to talk. 323-248-1488. Okay, love you.

[Danielle Friedman]

Bye.

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[Daily Beast Podcast Host]

Is the Daily Beast podcast where we say the quiet part out loud three times a week. I put pull back the curtain on the scandals, the spin, and the sheer madness that we're living through. And we ask the questions others are too afraid to pose. So when Trump melts down again, I call the author, Michael Wolff to break it down. When the DC Circus rolls into town, I get the unvarnished truth from Anthony Scaramucci. And when the Epstein files resurface, Tina Brown joins with the memory of when he confronted her. No fluff, no flattery, just fearless conversation every Tuesday, Thursday and Sunday. Find the Daily Beast podcast wherever you get your audio drama. I mean, sorry, wherever you get your news.