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- [00:00]
Maybelline Advertiser
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- [01:24]
Jennifer Riola
Good evening.
- [01:26]
Jane Marie
My sobriety is under question, but not in the way you think. This is a joviality test. I do this before each program to test my spirits. I seem to have passed with flying colors. Once again, I wish to welcome you.
- [01:46]
Jennifer Riola
To Alfred Hitchcock Presents for another half hour of group therapy. I'm told there is nothing like a good murder to work off one's antagonisms. And if you have no antagonisms, our.
- [02:01]
Jane Marie
Commercials will create some for you. Oh Alfie, tell me about has recently come to our attention that some sneaky buggers, as I imagine he might say, have been advertising on our program. And before I directly address them, let me explain how advertising works on our show. For many years it didn't and we made the show at a loss really. I mean, we kept the lights on but no one was rolling in dough. Now that we're independent, that is not with a major podcast network, we've decided we would like to turn a profit. Novel. We work with an ad agency, acast, and they help us do this. One way we do it is by us reading ads. One is by choosing companies we're happy to have advertise on the program. And one is by something called dynamic insertion, which is kind of like an AI bot full of ads that get plucked from the adoverse or whatever. Those change depending on where you listen and how you listen. Sometimes people we do not like, for example Kristi Noem or RFK Jr. Seriously, sometimes they sneak in and freak you out with an ad and then you email me or DM me or leave comments on my social media about it. And first, I want to thank you. How else would I know what you're getting fed in Chattanooga say? And I also want to say we are on top of it as we possibly can be. And you are right to be outraged. Doing the best we can while also trying to create college funds for the kids is. It's a task and sometimes we need your help. So that's that. About the ads you hear on our program, we're not in control of some parts and we do take your concerns seriously. I'll let Alfie see us out of this rant and we'll get on with the show. I want to make it clear that we always appreciate constructive criticism. Any expression of your feeling is always welcome.
- [03:47]
Jennifer Riola
We have a very warm feeling toward our viewers. We know they are intelligent, discerning and warm hearted.
- [03:56]
Jane Marie
Present company accepted? Of course. Yes. I'm Jane Marie and this is the dream. Today you're going to hear a familiar voice, that of Jennifer Riola who has been on the show a couple of times discussing her many years at an MLM and subsequent recruitment into a coaching cult. Here is a continuation of our discussion. Well, first of all, like, tell me how you've been. Like, tell me what's going on.
- [04:38]
Jennifer Riola
Okay. So since you came to Michigan, I had just started a social work position working within the local school districts and it's really exciting. I've been incorporating anti scam and anti fraud content within the curriculum for the parent education resources that I've been doing. So that has been really rewarding and I'm excited about that. And I'm also just back with kids and families, which is what I was doing before, but with kind of a new lens on life.
- [05:20]
Jane Marie
That's thrilling.
- [05:21]
Jennifer Riola
Yeah, I love it.
- [05:23]
Jane Marie
Can you just recap real quick your Arbonne experience?
- [05:28]
Jennifer Riola
Yeah. So when I was recruited into Arbonne, I was a social worker working for the state of Michigan doing child protective services investigations. Before I knew it, I was all in. I had quit my job. I had just had a baby and I was terrified of putting toxins on myself, in myself that my children were covered in toxins. I was down this self help spiral for the next eight and a half years within Arbonne Multi level marketing coaching. And then I woke up.
- [06:12]
Jane Marie
Can you tell us about your awakening?
- [06:15]
Jennifer Riola
So when I was recruited into Arbonne, I was a new mom. I was passionate about helping people. But I was feeling really stuck in my career as a social worker. And a friend from college had reached out to me and to share this new company that she had just been using. These products. Would I like to try the products? I wasn't sleeping, I wasn't washing my face. I really Wasn't taking care of myself. I was burned out and I used the products. And I was under the impression that she was following up with me to purchase some products. Before I knew it, I was on the phone with her Wall street executive, quote, unquote, upline, or the mentor, the person that had brought her into Arbonne. And I was being asked to start my own Arbonne business. And I didn't really know what that looked like. But as she was talking to me, I thought, this woman has this great business acumen. Oh my gosh, she's on Wall street, whatever that means. I'm like, I'm like this Midwestern social worker. I didn't, you know, nobody becomes a social worker for the money and the glitz and the glamour. So obviously this woman knows what she's talking about. Sign me up. What I thought was just buying a little starter kit to wash my face because I'm like, maybe I should wash my face every night to I'm gonna make millions of dollars and go to the top of Arbonne.
- [07:54]
Jane Marie
So you did that and then sort.
- [07:57]
Jennifer Riola
I sort of did that. I did recruit a lot of other people. I did make it to a point where I thought the business was actually working. I hosted a lot of in home parties, was able to wrangle up a bunch of friends who then hosted parties for me. I mean, at one point in my life, I was pregnant with our third child. I had a 2 year old and a 5 year old at home. And I was traveling across the state of Michigan like four or five hours one way in one day through snow and ice and I mean by hell or high water, I was going to meet people to share the gift of Arbonne to them. There was probably a good span of three and a half years of trying to get myself in front of as many people as I could, obsessed with getting to the top. But I don't think that I ever did. I think I'd convinced myself that it was working because I was putting in all this work and this business works if you do. That's what I was told. But looking back, that wasn't actually what was happening. I was funneling money, I was spending time. And did I eventually recruit enough people to drive the Mercedes and sign a lease to make it look like I was at the top? Yes.
- [09:33]
Jane Marie
Just to remind our listeners you qualified for the Mercedes level after your team sales reached a certain point. Right. Can you just explain? I think that we just need to remind people that the whole free pink Cadillac, free Mercedes Thing like isn't actually free.
- [09:54]
Jennifer Riola
Right. So as soon as you get recruited into Arbonne, you're told that this Mercedes level is your key to financial freedom. If you could just get yourself to this level, people will be knocking down your door to join your business. Because you're driving around this car. This is proof that this works. Not everyone's driving around this Mercedes. So it really gets ingrained in you that this is where you want to go. And to qualify for the Mercedes, it was 40,000 in sales in a month between you and your team. And the way that I earned the car is basically because everyone bought new product every month. Then you have to get $40,000 again in order for Arbonne to pay for it. But once you qualify, they're. You have to have a Benz bash. You have to throw this party. You invite people to come, they can see your Mercedes. It's social proof. You pay for all of that out of pocket. You're told this is a business expense, but you're going to have so many people sign up that it's going to be worth it.
- [11:02]
Jane Marie
But like, Arbonne didn't buy you a car. Right. Can you explain? Like, Arbonne did not. You weren't given a car and Arbonne didn't pay for a car.
- [11:11]
Jennifer Riola
Yeah. So I guess once you hit that qualification, you are strongly encouraged to put a lease in your name with Mercedes that you are promised that Arbonne will pay for now that you're a regional vice president. However, every month you have to re qualify and get $40,000. So in order for Arbonne to send you a stipend of your payment, so it can be anywhere from $200 a month to $800 a month, depending on your numbers.
- [11:44]
Jane Marie
So.
- [11:45]
Jennifer Riola
And that's not how much a Mercedes costs. It is a very small portion of that entire Mercedes, but it is in your name.
- [11:54]
Jane Marie
What do you think it actually cost a month? The least. Do you know? And insurance? Like, what is the full monthly expense on that car?
- [12:00]
Jennifer Riola
A thousand? Like my make and model?
- [12:03]
Jane Marie
Yeah, I was going to say like 1200. And that's only if you do $40,000 a month in sales. Otherwise you're just. Now you just have an $1,000 a month car for some reason.
- [12:12]
Jennifer Riola
Yeah. I mean, it's.
- [12:13]
Jane Marie
So you're paying for that emblem on the side of your Mercedes that you didn't even want in the first place, I'm assuming.
- [12:19]
Jennifer Riola
Yeah. And I mean, I know that there's like, people listening who are like, how could you fall for that. You're signing a lease. You see the contract, and it's so hard to explain, but it's like you are running on hope.
- [12:33]
Jane Marie
I know how. If it's. It's billed as like a 200amonth Mercedes, it's brand new, it's beautiful, it's white, it's fancy. And at most you're gonna be spending $200 a month extra, you know, like to make up the difference between the $800 check they're gonna give you and the thousand dollars that it really costs. Like, that I would go for it.
- [12:55]
Jennifer Riola
You really believe, like, this is where I was told I'm gonna have this financial freedom. This is only gonna get better. I got myself over that mountain and now it's just gonna be smooth sailing. All these people are gonna join. And I actually think it gets worse. You ostracize yourself in a whole new way. You kind of have this air of superiority. You start to prescribe to that mindset of like, well, I just pulled myself up by my bootstraps. I worked for this.
- [13:39]
Jane Marie
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- [15:12]
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- [16:56]
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- [17:56]
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- [18:38]
Jane Marie
Talk about your breakup with multi level marketing. And then mostly what I want to focus on in this interview is like the deconstructing and what you're doing now.
- [18:47]
Jennifer Riola
I was doing all of the things and eventually when I got recruited into Rank Makers to become a coach because I had this Mercedes and because I was on this self help trajectory where I was like, as long as I'm spending money on coaches and I'm spending money on Arbonne and I'm spending money on my business, it's working and I'm doing all the things I know that I can teach other people to do these things. Well, when I became a coach and other people weren't maybe recruiting the way that I was, I was like, how come other people can't recruit? Not understanding the math and the numbers and the logic of it all. And when I would go to Ray Higdon who was my boss or the leader at the time of Rank Makers that I was a part of, I was met with, well, it's something wrong with their mindset. It's something wrong with your mindset as a coach. Maybe you don't believe you're worthy of coaching them. Maybe they don't believe they're worthy of recruiting somebody. And I just began to question or I would get told, well they need to spend more money, you got to spend money to make money. And all of these sort of thought terminating cliches. Kind of like the shelf in the back of my mind just broke. And I was like, if this actually works and these people are doing what I did, then how come they can't be successful? And then, well I went On a questioning rampage, if you will. And then I had other people who had left help me kind of piece things together and know that I wasn't alone. And that kind of allowed me to. To doubt this for the first time. Because before that, any doubt was like something wrong with my mindset.
- [20:47]
Jane Marie
Mm. What did you do?
- [20:49]
Jennifer Riola
I just began to become more and more just out of touch with the whole thing. And I started to record meetings with Ray because I was really questioning what he was saying. I was losing trust in him.
- [21:05]
Ray Higdon
So, like, you know, I talk about this I didn't like. There's a lot of stuff I didn't know when. When I started. And, you know, so I didn't. I didn't know visualization at all. Didn't know anything about it. Didn't know about the subconscious, didn't know anything about manifestation. But what I did know is that I didn't want to stay in a negative state. And so I created. When I was just getting started, I created a trigger that anytime I thought about how bad my life was when I was in foreclosure, broke, chased by book collectors, I had to prospect. And not that that's the healthiest, long term kind of plan, but it's a hell of a lot healthier than overthinking or staying in the negative. Because if you, you know, if you just did 10 setups every time you got negative, we'd all be six pack abs.
- [21:50]
Jennifer Riola
During the final meeting that I had as a coach for the Higdon group, someone had asked him, you know, our clients aren't getting success. We're telling them to do all the things that you're coaching us to do. You know, they're buying all these trainings. They're prospecting 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, 90, 100 people a day. They're being vulnerable. They're sharing their trauma. They're trying to relate to people, and it is not working. What should we do? I think it's. It could be a mental health issue. Maybe they need counseling. And Ray had said, no, they need more coaching. They need to buy my book. They need to sign up for our biggest package. And I am the type of person where even if I don't say something, you can read it on my face. I just can't help it. And so during the meeting, I must have had RBF or something, and it made him really uncomfortable.
- [22:55]
Jane Marie
And I like to say that my bitch face never rests. It's not a resting bitch face.
- [23:01]
Jennifer Riola
Well, she was not resting. So he calls me out in the Meeting and says, rayella, what's going on, lady in red?
- [23:13]
Jane Marie
Nothing.
- [23:14]
Jennifer Riola
What's going on with you?
- [23:16]
Ray Higdon
What an endearing tone. Does anyone have a question?
- [23:20]
Jennifer Riola
I don't really agree with the advice. I feel like it's teaching people to deny their intuition.
- [23:27]
Ray Higdon
What would you advise in that situation?
- [23:30]
Jennifer Riola
I always think when people have feelings that come up, I don't think they're emotional addictions. I think, especially for women, their feelings that come up are valid. And that's almost how women move through things, I think continuing to tell people, just distract from your emotions in activity, and it just ends up being like it explodes eventually. And that's kind of like what you did. And then you got to this point where, like, you get to this dark night of the soul because you're like, suppressing, suppressing, suppressing, suppressing with activity. And then you're like, oh, I never healed all this stuff. I mean, I hear people all the time who are like, you know, there's so much activity, there's so many trainings. Like, we just had the Reels Challenge and the Influencer brand secrets, and now there's this one K Challenge, and it's, like, all a huge distraction from what they really need to be doing with their business. And then what happens is we come to you with this information and you say, oh, it's something wrong with their mindset. And so I just think, for lack of a better word, it's all bullshit.
- [24:40]
Jane Marie
Nice.
- [24:42]
Jennifer Riola
He knew I was no longer fawning at him. I was no longer just, like, giddy when he said my name. And from then on out, I just shared that I didn't agree with what we were doing. I felt like it was wrong to just get people to spend more money with him, especially if what he's selling is not working right, and that it was a scam. And within 24 hours, I was excommunicated from the group. I was told that I resentful and bitter content was made about me. I was kicked out of the group. All the other coaches came to his aid and said, like, that I didn't understand what we were doing. And he said, well, if you hate it so much and you hate what we're doing and you hate all the people that we're trying to help, then why haven't you said anything? And the real answer is, because I was in a cult and I couldn't say anything. Yeah, I just finally had the strength to say something and got out.
- [25:51]
Jane Marie
How did the fallout feel at the time? Do you remember, like, understanding that you're out of the group and that people are talking about you and all of that.
- [26:01]
Jennifer Riola
So, I mean, now I feel incredibly lucky that I had the opportunity to actually confront somebody who was scamming me, somebody that I felt was doing wrong. I know a lot of people that either leave high control groups or religions or MLMs. They don't have the opportunity to have a conversation with the person that is wronging them or scamming them. And so today I feel lucky that at least I could say some sort of peace. Like, this is how I feel in front of people. Oh, my gosh. At the time, it felt like a volcano had erupted, and, like, just burning hot magma was just, like, simmering throughout my life, like, destroying everything. Because when I was in MLM and I was in coaching and that whole world, the friendships and the relationships felt real. And to wake up from all of that and realize they're not real, that they exist because of the mlm making us all think that we're doing this, like, common thing and it's all working, but it's really like, this cloud of delusion. I felt just, like, raw and exposed, and all these people are saying all these things about me, and they're no longer my friend. And do I have any friends? What are friends? You know, how do I make friends? I'm 40, you know, and it was so much.
- [27:41]
Jane Marie
And also, what is soap? What is soap, actually? What are candles? Like, what is a diet shake? Come on. All the things you have in your house that are Arbonne Pro.
- [27:50]
Jennifer Riola
Exactly, Exactly. Can I eat real food? Can I use real soap? Am I going to be okay? Oh, my gosh. It was so much. And this was happening simultaneously. So I had all of the people within Rank Makers, and then I had all of the people within Arbonne. So people at the top of the pyramid within both respective groups.
- [28:16]
Jane Marie
Right. They all turned against you at once. Yeah.
- [28:20]
Jennifer Riola
Messaging me.
- [28:21]
Jane Marie
Do you remember anything specific from that time?
- [28:24]
Jennifer Riola
Yeah, there was a national vice president in Arbonne. She was sending me these Instagram voice memos. I'm talking, like, 30, 40 voice memos, Jane.
- [28:37]
Jane Marie
Oh, no.
- [28:38]
Jennifer Riola
Telling me that I hate women and I don't want to see them succeed. Why would I say, say anything bad about Arbonne when Arbonne will always do the right thing?
- [28:51]
Jane Marie
What?
- [28:52]
Jennifer Riola
And then the end of the voice memos ended with I hope you find Jesus.
- [28:59]
Jane Marie
Oh, I was gonna say, maybe that sounds like she's projecting and maybe she needs some therapy around hating women and et cetera. And then I thought, or maybe she just needs to buy one of Rhae's books to get over her.
- [29:12]
Jennifer Riola
Especially now that Ray is a prophet.
- [29:15]
Jane Marie
Oh, right. Tell me about that.
- [29:19]
Jennifer Riola
So after a huge exodus, if you will, from rank makers, there was a bunch of people that left and were speaking out. He transitioned sort of away from mlm. I don't think he'll ever really leave MLM because it is a vulnerable group of people that will buy into his bullshit because they're victims of their MLM company, not because they're stupid or because they don't think logically because they're already roped into their mlm. So it makes it easy for him to further manipulate them. So I don't mean to disrespect people who have been recruited because there's a process to it. It's manipulation, it's coercion. He had anti MLM creators using their voice to speak out against him. And so he claims that he went to some sort of conference. I believe it was a Joe Dispenza large group awareness training.
- [30:24]
Jane Marie
Oh.
- [30:25]
Jennifer Riola
And at that Joe Dispenza large group awareness training, somebody came up to him and said they saw God in him. This is the story that he tells. That he was like anointed and sorry, I'm not. No laugh. Don't. It. It's okay. It's just so ridiculous.
- [30:51]
Jane Marie
The pivot to God. Okay.
- [30:54]
Jennifer Riola
So he did a video on YouTube telling this story that he was called by God.
- [31:02]
Ray Higdon
In 2022, my wife went and spoke at an event in Nashville and she came home and she goes, hey, there's a guy you, you need to meet. Like, okay. And. And we get on a zoom call. And on that zoom call, first words out of his mouth. And we don't know each other. I don't know him. He doesn't know me. First words out of his mouth. I see a big vision for you and God. I'm like, oh, okay, what's he trying to sell? Is he raising money? Is this a Christian mastermind or something? Or a mission trip? Like, like what? What's the agenda here? And. And we talk for like an hour. None of it makes any sense, but it feels true. And next month will be my two year anniversary with Christ.
- [31:42]
Jennifer Riola
This is something that most people in multi level marketing have already heard from their uplines. All of my uplines did trainings about how God put Arbonne on their heart. And, and Jesus will bless you with money if you in turn bless him and you live a sacred life or you follow his teachings. And he will anoint your business. And so you have to understand, many of these people have already heard this. And so the religious manipulation has already happened again. It is such a seamless transition from MLM to religion. It's been done over and over. And he tells this story and he does like this brand shift. So he goes from like Rank Makers and Rank Makers Live and this new breed of network marketers that he'd always been touting to faith over fear. With Ray Higdon, which.
- [32:39]
Jane Marie
No, it's not a brand name.
- [32:41]
Jennifer Riola
Yes.
- [32:42]
Jane Marie
Oh, okay. Not with Jesus, with Ray Higdon. Does he really believe he's a prophet?
- [32:48]
Jennifer Riola
So in this video he more or less says that God spoke through him.
- [32:56]
Jane Marie
Also, Jesus doesn't say anything about being blessed with a multi level marketing opportunity. Like there's nothing in the Bible that's like, God will shine down upon you with soap and a downline. Like, I don't know where they're getting that from.
- [33:11]
Jennifer Riola
Well, according to Ray, God wants you to be rich.
- [33:18]
Ray Higdon
You may be dealing with spiritual stuff with people. You know, people can, can have unclean spirits and things like that that cause them to show up in a way and, and, and whatever, but at the end of the day, that's still a valuable soul. God would love you to win them over and so that's what we're to try.
- [33:34]
Jennifer Riola
So when he was in Rank Makers, he didn't do a lot of religious things. And that appealed to me because I did have a lot of upline talking about Jesus and God and I didn't grow up in a religious family. So it always was like, weird. I'm like, if I wanted to go to church, nothing wrong with that, but if I wanted to go, I would go. But I can't go because I have an Arbonne training. So it's like the only thing that was odd about this shift is that Ray was never religious. Which made it even more manipulative in my opinion, is because it was really like, oh my gosh, there were so many people who were Christians and Rank Makers who were like, yes, Ray found Jesus. Like, I'm so happy for him, he's saved. It's sad, like how their faith is being so manipulated against them.
- [34:31]
Jane Marie
How does he justify the idea that God wants you to be wealthy?
- [34:35]
Jennifer Riola
Like, I don't where he takes Bible verses. So what his trainings have become, when it was just rank Makers, his trainings were like, okay, prospect 10 to 20 people today and write it down in your Rank makers journal. Do a Facebook live. Those Were the action steps every day or celebrate your wins and share them in the rank makers group. When it became faith over fear, it was him translating Bible verses.
- [35:08]
Ray Higdon
We're instructed. A lot of people miss this part, but we're instructed not to bash leaders, even if we disagree with them. Jude189 talks about that. You know, David never wanted to go against Saul because he had been appointed by God to be king. The truth is we want to be the Messiah. We want to be our own saviors. And we're not. We're not. We're here to be of love. And so I get, we got a big mission for you here today. And I, I talked about this yesterday. We had a speaker titanium dinner. And that was awesome. Had a lot of fun there. And, and I mentioned, if you came here with a hungry heart, you're going to get fed. God's going to make sure of that. He's going to use me.
- [35:48]
Jennifer Riola
He would write the names of the verses and then interpret them as to basically why God wants you to be rich. And mind you, this is someone who like, just started reading the Bible. So there were people commenting that were like, you know, I. Maybe they have some sort of theological background and saying, well, I always understood that this meant that. And he would be like, yeah, you would think that, but.
- [36:23]
Jane Marie
But I have a special phone hotline straight to God. And he told me that what you really need to be doing is paying Ray Higdon.
- [36:31]
Jennifer Riola
Yes. And then it was like, sign up for Faith Over Fear. I'm going to be doing more of these and I'm going to be doing individual coaching.
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Jennifer Riola
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- [39:39]
Jane Marie
You leave that whole world. Tell me what you do next to start getting the kind of clarity you have now. Like, how do you deprogram?
- [39:47]
Jennifer Riola
I was connecting with other people who had left that I knew had left that I knew. Ray had said never speak to them again. Because while I'm reading about cults and I'm reading about high control groups, I'm like, oh wow, that's why we couldn't talk to those people. Or that's why we were told to block the haters and things like that.
- [40:10]
Jane Marie
What did you think the reason was not to talk to people before your sort of awakening?
- [40:17]
Jennifer Riola
I thought that because their negativity was gonna rub off on my mindset and affect my business and my life. And you are the average of the five people that you surround yourself with your energy and positive vibesonly. You know, hashtag because of Arbonne, hashtag because of rank makers. Like I was like in this little universe, this little bubble of any doubt is negative and if you willingly consume that, then I'm only doing it to myself and I only have myself to blame.
- [40:56]
Jane Marie
Ah, but then the scales fell from your eyes and you're like wait a minute, I Want to talk to all of these people.
- [41:01]
Jennifer Riola
Luckily, I couldn't ignore it anymore. In many cases, there were people that were either former clients of mine that coaching clients when I was working for Ray, you know, who either left and were dissatisfied, or people that I considered to have a good head on their shoulders. And also I got really pissed off from a specific incident. I had had dental surgery, and I wasn't supposed to be taking any clients. I was on pain medication because I was in pain.
- [41:36]
Maybelline Advertiser
And.
- [41:36]
Jennifer Riola
And I got a call from the Higdon group saying, we have this difficult client. And by difficult, she just wanted a refund because she wasn't getting results in her pyramid scheme. So there was nothing difficult about her. She was just standing up for herself. But they were like, we have a difficult client, and if you save her, there's a bonus in it for you. And I said, I can't talk. I just had surgery. And so I got really pissed off that day. It was a perfect storm of things. And I started to be like, where are those people that left? What are they up to now? It wasn't really until I was forced to leave, maybe that's what I needed. I don't know. But, yeah, maybe I would have just gotten manipulated back in for, you know, because I think there probably would have been something that he would have then offered new and exciting just to the coaches or something that I would have been like, oh, well, this is gonna be different. The same way that people jump from MLM to mlm, they're like, this is the one. It's the same thing.
- [42:53]
Jane Marie
Wasn't there, like, a support group you went to, or.
- [42:56]
Jennifer Riola
I spoke to a therapist, and this therapist wasn't educated in cults, but she was willing to educate herself. And really I just needed somebody to listen and validate that my doubts were healthy and it was okay to question things. And that. That kind of thinking is not negative thinking. That was very helpful. And people ask about, like, what does your husband think of all of this? And he's kind of like the silent observer type. And he knew that if he confronted me on what I was doing, that probably would have just made me just dig my heels in deeper. And he raised questions, he asked questions. He didn't always agree with things, but having him there to just support me and be like, it's so. It's okay that this happened. And I know you have a lot of shame about money you lost or money you spent. Not saying that there wasn't any accountability or responsibility there, but having a supportive partner was huge. I mean, just so many things. I also made a commitment to try to rectify any relationships that I could. So reaching out to people that I had tried to recruit into my Arbonne business and saying, I'm sorry, I'm out of Arbonne now and I'd love to grab coffee with you or.
- [44:37]
Jane Marie
That's the step in AA where everyone quits. Did you know that there's a step in AA where you have to right your wrongs and call people and apologize and most people don't get through that part. That's the part that's like insurmountable for most people. So that's very cool that you could do that.
- [44:52]
Jennifer Riola
It's crazy that you say that because it really felt like an addiction. And sometimes when I say that, I feel like I'm diminishing real addicts experiences.
- [45:07]
Jane Marie
It sounds like you haven't been to a 12 step meeting before.
- [45:11]
Jennifer Riola
No.
- [45:11]
Jane Marie
They're basically like trauma offs and everyone gets that out of their system pretty quickly. Like it doesn't matter how bad or not bad your situation is. You're not taking anything away from other victims by sharing your story. In fact, I think you're helping people identify themselves inside your story. My heart breaks for you and I feel exhausted on your behalf by how much self doubt and how much examination you've done through all of these coercive control groups where you. It must have been exhausting to be criticizing yourself constantly like that.
- [45:49]
Jennifer Riola
And as I'm talking to you, I still sometimes will hear Ray in my head. It sounds different than it used to, but he used to always say how verbose I was. And you need to be concise. You just ramble on.
- [46:08]
Jane Marie
You're talking too much.
- [46:09]
Jennifer Riola
Yeah.
- [46:10]
Jane Marie
Smile more, talk less. Yes, woman. He did kind of say smile more when he was talking to you in that meeting that I watched. Like, what's the, what's the look on your face?
- [46:21]
Jennifer Riola
You know, I. I've been out of multi level marketing now since 2022. So it had. It's still pretty fresh. But I look back and it feels like it was like 10 years ago, not two years ago.
- [46:36]
Jane Marie
Wow.
- [46:37]
Jennifer Riola
Which I think is a good thing.
- [46:38]
Jane Marie
Yeah. Can you talk to me about some of the stuff you've learned? You brought up a phrase earlier that I think is probably part of, I guess, for lack of a better word, your deprogramming. You said something about thought terminating cliches. Can you just run through a number of these things that you've since leaving mlms and coaching? What You've learned.
- [47:01]
Jennifer Riola
Yeah. So my understanding of what a thought terminating cliche is, it's something that you say to get somebody to stop critically thinking and if somebody has a death, you might say something like, oh, well, they're in a better place in an attempt. So I'm saying it can be benign in like your intent, where you're thinking that it's helping them to not, you know, think about their loved ones or think critically about what happened. That would be an example of a thought terminating cliche. But in multi level marketing, one of the things is like when someone asks, is this a pyramid scheme? You are taught a thought terminating cliche, which is, this is not a pyramid scheme because pyramid schemes are illegal. And I would never be involved in something illegal which would get them. It sounds like a valid answer because they like to think pyramid schemes are illegal. They scam people.
- [48:06]
Jane Marie
Right.
- [48:06]
Jennifer Riola
But you know, drugs are illegal too. It doesn't mean that the crime doesn't still exist. And so another one in Rank Makers, Ray talked a lot about being postured. Being postured around your network marketing business means the belief in what you have regardless of external acceptance or approval. So what would happen is when someone would question what you were doing. If I reached out to somebody to try to recruit them and they were questioning, I would have raised voice in my head saying, I have belief in what I have regardless of external acceptance or approval, like I'm being postured. And what it meant to be postured too was to kind of be dismissive of their questions and their thoughts and their beliefs, in turn dismissing your own.
- [48:59]
Jane Marie
Right.
- [49:01]
Jennifer Riola
And this got so programmed into you that it became this like rank maker badge of honor. How quickly you could rattle off the belief in what you have, regardless of external acceptance or approval. And I can still do it, and I probably will on my deathbed.
- [49:18]
Jane Marie
What other ones are there?
- [49:20]
Jennifer Riola
There was something in Arbonne that was kind of creepy where we would say, first you're an Arbonne, then Arbonne's in you. And so I don't know why that's so gross. You don't? It's pretty gross. It's like the Exorcist.
- [49:44]
Jane Marie
Seriously.
- [49:46]
Jennifer Riola
I wonder if there's a national vice president named Linda Blair, right? There probably is. And so what that would be used for is if you were questioning or if you had a teammate questioning. And I'd go to my upline like, ah, well, Jane really isn't sending out her prospecting messages. And I'm just really worried that she's going to quit. And, you know, this is a side conversation. We would never have this conversation in front of you, Jane, because you're not privy to that.
- [50:18]
Jane Marie
Okay.
- [50:18]
Jennifer Riola
And I would be worried. Like, you know, maybe I should look at what Jane's thinking. Like, maybe this doesn't work. Maybe she's onto something. The upline would say to you, well, remember, first you're in Arbonne, and then Arbonne's in you, meaning Jane's just in Arbonne, but Arbonne is in you. Ah, so you're, like, a step above. You're, like, chosen for this. Oh. Another one is if you were questioning the compensation plan or any ingredient, it was always like, well, we're going to have a training on that. Great question. Hold off. We're going to have a training on that. And then you'd hold off. And then, like, maybe the training would come, maybe it wouldn't. But, like, you've already forgotten because you have to prospect 75 people a day, and you have to make a Facebook Live and you have to create content and you have to follow up and you have to, you know, drink your protein shakes. You have so many things that you're doing every single day that you've forgotten why you even asked.
- [51:21]
Jane Marie
I would imagine one kind of lingering, constant question is really about your compensation. The idea that you're not really a millionaire. How do you kick that can down the road?
- [51:35]
Jennifer Riola
Your mindset and your mindset around money. So there's your mindset, and then there's your money mindset. Did you know that Ray, like, rewrote? He basically stole Think and Grow Rich and rewrote it for network marketers.
- [51:50]
Jane Marie
Of course he did.
- [51:51]
Jennifer Riola
He has, like, a version that he sells. He calls it vibrational money immersion.
- [51:57]
Jane Marie
What?
- [51:57]
Jennifer Riola
And it is. It is almost word for word, like think and grow rich, but applied to network marketing.
- [52:04]
Jane Marie
Oh, my God. So then you're not making money. And it's not because the system or the business model doesn't work. It's because you haven't read Ray's book about mindset. Money mindset.
- [52:16]
Jennifer Riola
Right. And I would say Ray was a bigger perpetrator of this than at least some of my Arbonne uplines. But he was big into. I pay hundreds of thousands of dollars to have Grant Cardone coach me.
- [52:34]
Jane Marie
I don't know much about him, but I know he's expensive.
- [52:38]
Jennifer Riola
I know he's a Scientologist. He, like, is a huge donor for the Church of Scientology.
- [52:45]
Maybelline Advertiser
Wow.
- [52:46]
Jane Marie
How did you come to the conclusion that you were in A cult.
- [52:49]
Jennifer Riola
When I read Steve Hasson's bite model, Behavior, information, thought and emotional control. And there was a checklist on his website that he encouraged you to print off and look at your group that you're a part part of. And him also saying, like, anything legitimate can stand up to scrutiny kind of gave me the permission to like, okay, well, let me look through this with a fine tooth comb. And if it's not icky, like I'm kind of starting to feel that it is, then fine, it'll stand up to being scrutinized. And I was doing it simultaneously with Arbonne and Rank Makers. And I'm looking at controlling the foods you eat and your diet. And I think the biggest one when I was going through the bite model was the emotional control, because I had lived like eight and a half years of thinking that any questioning, any doubt, any standing up for myself or any belief that I had that went against Rank Maker beliefs, even if it went against my own morality and my own values, was negative. Even in that final meeting where I said, I think this is wrong, you're charging people when it's not working. You're just looking to scam them out of money. And then being told she doesn't have her feelings of resentment under control, obviously she's a victim of her own resentment and she needs to defy her negative emotions. That really made me so angry. And I know now that anger is like just it's a catalyst for change.
- [54:39]
Jane Marie
Right.
- [54:39]
Jennifer Riola
I used to beat myself up and be like, why am I so angry about this? What am I manifesting that is just going to be bad because of my anger versus, like, I could really make impact and change by, you know, fighting.
- [54:55]
Jane Marie
The good fight, which is a good segue. So tell me how you're doing that now. It's really, like you said, only been a couple of years. How different does your life look now? And what are you doing with your time?
- [55:07]
Jennifer Riola
So when I first left, I thought that maybe I would create content. And then I realized I needed to really take a break and learn to listen to myself again and trust my own instincts. And in order to do that, I had to get offline. And I was applying to use my social work degree and get into that field again. And I was lucky enough to get into education, which is something I never worked in before. And I work with parents and I do parent education and I connect them to resources. And I was really lucky to be able to create some curriculum around anti fraud and anti scam.
- [56:00]
Jane Marie
And are you finding that it's a big issue in your community. Can you quantify that for me? I mean, I know what it is because I'm from Michigan in the middle of nowhere.
- [56:09]
Jennifer Riola
Absolutely. And there's so many different companies around here and they change. You know, I was responsible for the influx of Arbonne consultants for an eight year period. LuLaRoe had its time in this area. I mean Modere scentsy.
- [56:30]
Jane Marie
Isn't Melaleuca really big in Michigan?
- [56:32]
Jennifer Riola
Yeah, there's Melaleuca distributors. I see a lot of this make wellness popping up now.
- [56:42]
Jane Marie
Scams of all sorts you think are a problem in your community.
- [56:46]
Jennifer Riola
Yeah, people go looking for it. The same reason that I got recruited as well, because there isn't, there aren't options for daycare, there's limited health care. So you might go seeking like alternative therapies or remedies for your health and then find yourself getting recruited into an Arbonne pyramid scheme or any mlm.
- [57:05]
Jane Marie
You're in a real healthcare desert where you are like, I know that there's not like good hospitals. You'd have to be like airlifted if something went really awry or drive for hours.
- [57:15]
Jennifer Riola
Yeah. To have a baby. You're driving like 40 miles. Yeah. Access to healthcare, access to financial resources. There's so many paths to MLM being.
- [57:29]
Jane Marie
At your house and looking through all of your notebooks and daily planners. You're just so organized and so motivated to get your to do list done. When you are in those organizations and reach your goal and set another goal goal and work really hard to get to it. Have you found a way to incorporate that into your life now or are you relieved to not be focused so much on the next thing and the next thing and the next thing or how's that working?
- [57:54]
Jennifer Riola
I am absolutely relieved to not be focusing on the next thing and the next thing and the next thing. So that is a big yes. I have learned to just appreciate more of what I have now today. And like what do I need to do today?
- [58:15]
Jane Marie
Well, thanks again for talking and I want to keep talking.
- [58:18]
Jennifer Riola
Thank you so much.
- [58:23]
Jane Marie
That's it for this week. We have a tip line open. Call us at 3232-4814-8832-2348-1488 and leave us a message about anything that you think is funky out there. Talk to me.
- [58:54]
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- [59:20]
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- [59:52]
Howie Mandel
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