← The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
The Dylan Gemelli Podcast
Episode #52 Featuring Anti Aging Expert Dr. Bill Andrews! Uncover the SECRETS to REAL anti aging! TELOMERES, TELOMERASE, Mitochondrial Health and the role of lifestyle in anti aging!
01:09:16
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Today's episode is sponsored by my good friends at Timeline. Timeline is now offering the world's first ever longevity gummies, powered by Might appear. You've heard me talk about the importance of cellular health and our mitochondria, which is why I have time. As my favorite and most trusted sponsor, these are the only clinically proven Urolithin a gummies for strength and healthy aging. We may be living longer lifespans, but are we truly living better lives? What if the key is not just adding years to your life, but life to your years? This all starts at the cellular level. As we age, our mitochondrial health starts to decline. And one of the keys to living longer and healthier is keeping our mitochondria healthy and strong and might appear targets. This for us. Take of your health now and live the life that you not only desire, but you also deserve. As a gift to all my listeners, you can save 20% off today by going to timeline.comdylan to get started. That's timeline.comdylan. i assure you your cells will thank you. All right, everybody, welcome back to the Dylan Gelli podcast. Now, many of you that follow me, you see that I bring on some of the most renowned, knowledgeable guests in the world, in the biohacking world, in the health and fitness world. And I have had the blessing to speak to the best. But I have to tell you something about my guest today. As many amazing people as I just mentioned that I've talked to, this man has taken it to another level of intelligence, integrity and blew me away with the conversation we had before in his knowledge base and we didn't even get into a fraction of, of things prior. So I cannot wait to talk to him today and introduce you to him. So just a quick rundown, which is a very short amount of his accolades. I, I can't cover them all in an intro or I'd be going way too long. But he is a leading expert on longevity research. Now, as a renowned scientist and anti aging researcher, he's been featured in many areas that you heard of. Popular science, the Today show, the doctor's TV show, numerous documentaries on the topic of life extension. Now, he has his PhD in molecular and population genetics in 1981 and he spent much of his career in medical research and he was also recognized for his work on cancer research with second place at the 1997 National Inventor of the Year. He has over 50 patents and key roles in the discovery of several major biotech breakthroughs. And he's led the research to discover the enzyme whose Absence is responsible for human aging. And we're going to get into that today. And he brings years of expertise in biotechnology and longevity research to the Touchtone Essentials Advisory Board, which, as you know, is one of my favorite companies. So I know that that's a lot, but it's really a little for what he actually can do. And my friends, welcome Dr. Bill Andrews.
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Well, thank you for that great introduction. Glad to be on your show.
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It's great to have you, man. Like I said, I, I'm really, really excited to talk to you. I've been looking forward to this and you blew my mind with your knowledge base. So let's dig into this a little bit here. Look, you're known for a lot like I just rattled off there. You have so many amazing things. But let's shift backwards a little bit here. How did you become so smart and knowledgeable on so many different things? Where, where did you study? Like, what was it that, that enthralled you to get into what you do today?
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I've always been interested in finding ways to make people happier and healthier. You know, it's. It's like living's the greatest thing that ever happened to us. And I, I hate the idea that some people just can't enjoy living. And I'd like to do away with some of these dumb things that interfere with this enjoying living. I actually was first motivated by my father, who turned out to be always interested in anti aging. When I was 10 years old is when he first approached me after realizing how interested I was in science and medicine. And he came to me and said, bill, when you grow up, you should become a doctor and find a cure for aging. And that's even discussed in some of the documentaries that you mentioned, especially the Immortalists that I co starred with Aubrey Gray in. But my father's in that. And he, he and I talk about how he was obsessed with aging his whole life. He never understood why nobody's already cured aging. He thought it was a disease. So I, I really got into it really early on. I mean, in high school and college I was having, starting anti aging clubs, you know, having discussions about what aging is, why we age, how we age, and of course, how not to age. And some of these people that I taught with were really interested in is ended up later getting Nobel prizes. So I was working with a pretty elite group of people. Like everything we compared to tug of wars, okay? All health, there's a tug of war. Things pulling one direction or another, including aging. So we use analogies. Like that, to really understand things. And when people first discovered, like the. The Hayflick limit, when Leonard Hayflick first discovered that cells can only divide a certain number of times, human cells at least can only divide a certain number of times. Became really clear that this was something that played a big effect on human health. Not just aging, but health in general. So how could a cell know how old it is or how many times it can divide or how many times it has divided? And with everything we knew about biochemistry, all we could come up with was the only mechanism that could exist inside of a cell was something like ride tickets at an amusement park. That was our favorite analogy there. Whereas we would talk about how every time a cell divides, it loses a ticket somehow. And when it loses its last ticket, the ride's over, the cell dies and. Or the human dies the. Because typically cells die long before they lose their last ticket. In fact, it's. It's typically when a cell dies from wear and tear, another cell has to divide to replace that cell, and that's when it loses the ride tickets. So that was the other frustrating thing that we all had because we always said that all the twos and twos have to add up and that a lot of theories on aging didn't make sense. Okay? And because the twos and twos didn't explain everything. Question was, if a cell gets damaged from wear and tear and can be replaced by another cell, why do we ever age? Okay, so, you know, because we can always be replacing our tissues. We're not like old trucks sitting in a field that are having wear and tear from wind and rain and sun and things like that. We have the ability to replace these cells. Well, when it was learned that human cells can't divide indefinitely, that became a really great answer that a lot of us got really excited about. About. Okay, so now we can explain why we age because after a while, we quit being able to replace the damaged cells. And that's where this ride tickets at amusement park came from, is how could we explain that? But it wasn't. I mean, I would say we were talking about that in the 1970s or early 70s, late 70s, but it wasn't until the early 1990s that I first heard that telomeres shortened. The telomeres are at the very tips of our chromosomes. And I don't want to make it sound like it's just aging. It's all aspects of health. Okay? And so. So before I. Before I just go there, let me just say that throughout my high school, college and graduate school, I was focused on what do I need to know to understand the why and the how of aging so that I could figure out how not to age. And the. So I. Everything I did courses were all related to this. And believe it or not, it's not just biology. It was also psychology. It was also statistical theory. It was like courses in logic just to be able to. And data analysis. Okay. Study designs, data analysis. Just my ability to be able to read studies and figure out were they legitimate, did the scientists that authored the study know what they were doing? Things like that. So. So it made me. It made it possible if I could weed out the crap from the real stuff. So.
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Right.
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But the most exciting thing happened. It was a big aha day when I was sitting in a conference in 1993, I guess it was, in Lake Tahoe, and I heard a scientist, Dr. Calvin Harley, talk about the fact that telomere shortened and that he was. He had written a paper on the telomere theory of aging. And I'm sitting there, I think, my God, this is it. These are those right tickets. They're the first thing that I'd ever heard of that could be the right tickets. He. He said, Dr. Keller Harley said, I can measure the length of your telomeres, and I can tell you how old you are. And more importantly, I can tell you how long it'll be before you die of old age. Exactly what we wanted from the ride tickets. And so I. I've. I was there at the bottom of the podium before we even got off the stage and said, has anybody figured out how to add ride tickets back? He didn't use the analogy ride tickets, but, you know, essentially that as he figured out how to re. Lengthen telomeres. I don't know if I mentioned telomeres are found at the very tips of our chromosomes. I skipped that part. And if you think of a chromosome like a shoelace and the genes that give us our hair color, eye color, and everything like that are all along the shoelace.
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Yeah.
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Telomeres are the. Like the aglets on your shoelaces that protect your shoelaces. If they bury caps. Those are telomeres on our chromosomes. So our DNA, our chromosomes have aglets like shoelaces do that protect them. And that's what telomeres are. But the telomeres actually play a bigger role than just protecting the DNA. They actually play a role in turning genes on and off on the chromosomes. Because like every gene, or let's say most genes have something next to Them like a dimmer switch that turns the gene on and off and on and off. That's what epigenetics is. Okay? The study of epigenetics is turning this dimmer switch on and off to produce the amount of, let's say, light from electric light bulb, but also the amount of product that is produced from the gene. And so telomeres have the ability to regulate those dimmer switches. And the shorter the telomere gets, the harder it is to reach all those genes. So when we age, we start seeing changes in us, okay, that mostly due to the changes in those dimmer switches. And we and others have been able to adjust those dimmer switches. This is the study of epigenetics to be able to turn things back. And like studies of human skin grown on the back of mice have been able to do that, regulate these genes. You find skin becomes young in every way imaginable. Human cells just grown in petri dishes. There's been mice studies that have done this. Now, I want to make it clear, mice do not age like humans. Okay?
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Right.
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So the best studies are the ones where they used engineered mice that do age like humans because it is the. It is possible to engineer mice to have certain biochemical pathways that are the same as humans. And that's the best way to study the human pathways. So Dr. Ron Depenau @ Harvard, who actually became the head of MD Anderson, he actually constructed a strain of mice that age like humans. And a lot of. I think a lot of the best studies came from those mice. Yeah. And let me just say that the only animals on the planet that have been shown to age like humans platelet shortening are non human primates, dogs, cats, horses, sheep, pig, deer, and I think that's it. Every other animal has been shown to age by different mechanisms like oxidative stress, mitochondrial dysfunction. Of course, humans age by mitochondrial dysfunction and oxidative stress, too, but in a very different way than mice do. And so in order to really study human aging, you gotta engineer the mice that age like human. And that's Dr. Rhonda Pennel's mice, really did that. And Diane Sawyer did a great interview with him 10 years ago maybe, where he talked about all these mice and showed how he could reverse aging in these mice in every way imaginable. Just it's a little hard to actually do the same things with humans, because the treatments, the way you. You had to engineer these mice to do this, and you don't have to engineer the humans, but you still have to do things to the humans to get them to reverse their aging process, which sometimes are very difficult and harmful do. And so most of the science right now is figuring out ways to safely adjust aging markers and things like that. Not, not so much what needs to be done. We know what to do. I mean, we just have to figure out ways of safely changing these things.
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I, I've got several questions here. So I have spent several years now studying mitochondrial and cellular health and, you know, trying to learn and understand how that truly affects our aging process. But our quality of life and, and the feelings that we have know, being that it's source of energy and everything. So my, I guess what I'm. I'm going to have multitudes of questions here for you, but let's start with some more basic things with the telomeres in general. Is, is there a certain age where we can expect these to start, you know, losing their function, so to speak, or, you know, degrading so down. And then also, is there something that can cause that to happen earlier? Is it something diet related? Is it something disease related? Like what are the actual causes of this degradation or lessening of effect that they might have?
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Let me, let me first say, telomeres don't normally shorten by degradation. Okay. Okay. That's a terminology that's used in the science. And even I'll say telomeres short, but they don't. They actually. So if you have a really great diet, lead a perfect lifestyle, have great genetics, your telomeres only shortened by what's called the end replication problem. So when your cell divides, everything inside the cell needs to be duplicated so that the two daughter cells are identical to the parent cell. Okay, well, one of the things that has to be duplicated is the DNA that I mentioned before with the genes. And so in human cells, when we replicate the DNA to make a new copy of it, so duplicate the DNA to make a new copy of it. Our machinery inside of our cells to do the replication cannot replicate all the way to the very tip of the chromosome. So as a result, the new chromosome is shorter than the original chromosome. That's called the end replication problem.
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Got it.
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So that's the thing that when we do the math on the rate of cell division and the rate of telomere shortening, and when does telomeres get so short that you can't function anymore? We can calculate that pretty exactly. You can not possibly live longer than 125 years because of the end replication problem. This is why telomeres are the best clock of aging that I've ever seen and every other clock, which I believe are great for measuring. They are almost certainly controlled by the telomere shortening clock. Just the telomeres are a lot harder, harder to measure. Telomere lengths are a lot harder to measure than like DNA methylation and IgG glycosylation, which are some of my favorites. But we can also cause telomeres to degrade, okay? And that's called what I call accelerated telomere shortage. And all of us have terrible lifestyle habits. We're not going to live to be 125 years because we all have accelerated telomere shortening, and that's going to limit our lifespan to lower than 125. But any, like smoking, obesity, those things accelerate it fast. There's genetic mutations that people can have that will accelerate telomere shortening. Drinking will accelerate telomere shortening. That's one of my favorite examples that discussed how telomere shortening works. We can also undo those things. Okay, so genetic mutations, I think I just mentioned that to you. But genetic mutations, there are things that can accelerate telomere shortening. So oxidative stress, inflammation are the main causes. But you can take antioxidants and you can take anti inflammatories and you can decrease the rate of accelerated telomere shortening. You can also meditate. So psychological stress actually accelerates telomereshori. I've been a keynote speaker at meditation conferences where I've explained how people meditating a lot are doing themselves a great favor service and by slowing down their aging process. And I show that with data looking at telomere lengths, how people who meditate a lot actually have longer telomeres than their friends are same age that don't meditate a lot. Exercise is kind of like a Goldilocks kind of thing. It's like there's such a thing as too much exercise and too little exercise. Both of those decrease, increase the rate of telomere shortening. But intermediate is great. Now, when I say over exercise, I don't mean how much time you spend exercise, I mean how hard you do it. I run every day, okay? But I, I keep it fun, okay? When it quits being fun, I quit. And I try to always combine it with adventure. And I measure my inflammatory markers all the time, and they're always low. I can run a marathon the next day, not be stiff as a ball like most runners are, because my body's learned that that's not some dangerous thing happening in My body, I don't want to just focus on running, but kayaking, bicycling, hiking, all these things. If you're doing any kind of endurance exercise, your body can, if you, if you do do it occasionally, your body will think, okay, something's infecting you and it induces an immune response to fight that. That's what inflammation is. Now, if you exercise all a day, your body, every, every day, your body doesn't feel that way. And if you, if you keep it fun, your body never feels that way. And if you keep it fun, you, it's just amazing how easy it becomes to do endurance sports all the time without ever having inflammatory responses, things like that. I mean, I used to hold the world record for the most 100 mile races run in a year. Okay. And I had fun. I mean, I didn't finish all of them. I could have done more, but there were some where I just, I didn't have fun anymore and I decided to quit and save it for the next time. But I still ended up breaking the world record without even knowing there was a world record at the time. I was just enthralled by the adventure, the Adventure Ultra Marathon ride. You get to go out in the wilderness where nobody ever goes. They drop supplies for you by helicopter so that you can get to a certain point and replenish your water and food and things like that. You carry a backpack and you run a hundred miles. You know, I became very addicted to that sport. But, you know, I also, like, I run every day. I, I'm about 20, 20 plus days away from my 2,000th consecutive day of running. That's over five years. I become addicted to it. I, I panic that I, oh, did I forget to run today? Or something like that. I, I just, I love it. I'm getting, but the adventure I like. I, I speak at running conferences and I will tell people how to make running fun. And I say combine it with adventure. Don't stay on a trail, go off trail. Okay. Go through the country. Wilderness discoveries you make are incredible. You see a coyote, follow it, go where that coyote does. You drive the coyote crazy, but at least you're going to go see places that nobody else ever goes to. And so just don't get lost. But they'll always be able to find your way back. Do it all the time, Be consistent, keep it fun, and that's going to slow the rate of your aging down.
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So we're looking at, if we're looking at blood markers here and, and that would help us decipher what kind of maybe telomere health we have, we'd be looking at inflammation like high sensitivity C reactive protein, probably. And, and those kind of markers. We'd be looking at cortisol for stress. Right. And then anything else that would be telltale signs that we need to really work on to make sure that we're staying on the right track health wise.
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With those or sometimes it's really hard to know that you have inflammation. It's one of the major causes of heart disease, for example, and people don't really feel the inflammation. And so I actually recommend a test called the ALCAT test. A L, C a T. Okay. I've uber heard you find it and it tells you what foods and supplements and anything you choose cause inflammation in your cells. So it's not a measure of allergies. Allergies, a whole different antibody system. Okay. It's measuring sensitivities to foods that introduce, that induce inflammation. So you can take this ALCAT test. I take it every year. Okay. And it changes every year. Okay. Especially because if you eat a lot of something over and over and over again, you induce an immune response in a very high number of cases. But if you occasionally eat it, the immune responses can go down. So it changes. So I get it done every year and I find out what foods are causing inflammation in me and I quit eating them. Okay. Or I slow down on eating them and wait, get tested a year later, and then I go back to eating them again as the best kind of markers. I say plural because you're testing a whole bunch of different things. Things there.
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Right.
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But you know that that's a test I highly, very highly recommend. Okay. Excellent tumor necrosis factor. I mean, I'm trying to think of other inflammatory markers, but C reactive protein is my favorite. Hydrogen cortisol is also important. People often think cortisol is bad for you, but cortisol is actually a natural anti inflammatory. It's actually cortisol is produced because it's fighting your inflammation. So it's a marker. So if you see cortisol, that means you have inflammation because it's there fighting.
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Well, and plus it depends on the time of day you're getting it tested too. And I don't think a lot of people understand the correlation there. And that's, that's really a lot of these tests, honestly. And if you're fasted or not, and I mean we could go on and on, on that, but I think people don't understand there's a variety of ways that these Numbers could get skewed or thrown off or not really accurate. So I think that's important, too, to. To remember.
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Yeah. Consistencies. Maybe a good way to do it.
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That's right.
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Because. Yeah, because, you know, things change at all all the time. But I'm trying to think of what else to answer here. The surprising thing was that I found was there's two studies at least, showing that pessimism. People that are pessimistic have shorter kilometers than people that are optimistic. Well, I don't know. It says if you don't believe you're going to live to be 100 years old, you probably won't live to be 100 years old. If you believe it, your chances increase. You.
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You know this. And I don't. Don't fight. I don't have any science to prove this. But the more negative you are and the more that you think something bad's going to happen, ultimately it will, and the less healthy you're going to be. Because stress never. Or. Or I guess getting angry or getting worried about something never fixed a problem. Right. It only exacerbates it. And so I think a lot of people, while all of the science is so important, a lot of people don't realize just some basic things like this could correlate with our overall health and the importance of kind of having stress release. I do it through prayer. You talked about meditation. I think that's a huge thing like we're talking about here that goes along with everything else that. That you discuss and teach. You have to have it all put together or it doesn't really matter.
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It's a whole mindset, whole way of thinking really controls your aging. And I like the fact that I become so knowledgeable on the subject. I just naturally fall into all those different. And stuff like that. I want to make it clear that I don't believe telomere shortening is the only cause of aging. And it's right. My whole life I've been studying all aspects of aging. It's just that I reached a point where I realized that no matter what else we do to cure aging, aging is never going to get cured. We're never going to live longer than 125 unless we solve this hard, fast, telomer shortening problem. Okay. Because that's a block we cannot exceed. No matter what you do to extend your lifespan, you will never live longer than 125 without solving the telomere shortening problem. And there's a lot of great things that are going to happen in the future Medium intelligence in outer space. Life forms in outer space. Understanding the origin of the universe. I want to be around for those, you know, I, I'm, I, I don't suffer from a fear of dying. I, I used to hold the world speed record for barefoot water skiing and I used to compete and some of the competitors would get killed during the races. I mean I was, I was a nutcase. I, I've always been a nutcase, but. So I'm not afraid of dying, I'm just afraid of not living really. I'm afraid of missing out, missing out on the great things that are going to happen in the future. And I'm the world's greatest Star Trek fan. Just because I just dream every time I watch an episode of Star Trek, things like that. I think of aging as multiple sticks to dynamite. We have to solve them all and maybe we might find one that controls everything. But I'm very interested in mitochondria health. He had mentioned mitochondria, this extremely important thing that people really need to stay on top of. Oxidative stress, inflammation, NAD levels there. There's so many different things that I do to maintain my health. Especially while we're still short of having a way of re lengthening telomeres to the extent that our reproductive cells do. I don't know if I mentioned that the reason why I target way I discovered this enzyme called telomerase was realizing that if every time a cell divides our telomeres get shorter, there's no way we could exist as a species because our reproductive cells require cell division. And so if every time our reproductive cells, like cells producing our egg and sperm, every time those cells divided the telomeres got shorter, our children would be born with shorter telomeres than we have. Their children are born with shorter telomeres than they have. We would have been extinct as a species 300,000 years ago because we wouldn't have any DNA left. And so our reproductive cells produce something that prevents telomere shortening. And we discovered this enzyme, telomerase, right after this guy that spoke on stage and talked about telomere shortening. I asked him if anybody's lengthen him had figured out a way to re lengthen telomeres. And he said no. And I said, let me come and work with you. I'll have it figured out in three months. And he did. I mean I had a pretty illustrious career, big reputation for getting a lot of big biotech blockbusters done invented and things like that. So he, he offered me the job Right then and there. And three months, 17 days later, my team and I discovered human telomerase. And I blamed Calvin Harley for the extra 17 days because it was such a distraction. But. But, yeah, but we. We discovered this enzyme, telomerase, and we're able to quickly show that we could totally stop the aging process in human cells. In a petri dish. We could reverse aging in human skin growing on the back of a mouse. And then Dr. Rhonda Pinnell, using his engineered mice, he was able to show that he could reverse aging by lengthening telomeres in those mice. And that's what the Diane Sawyer special that I mentioned before was all about, talking about those mice. Now, the question is, how can we do this in humans without causing any. Putting telomerase into human cells isn't going to cause any problems. It's delivering the method to produce telomerase into the cell. That's the big trauma. So you can use gene therapy, which is a way of putting a gene into a virus and then infecting yourself with that virus, and it carries that gene into your cells, and that produces telomerase. That's. That's pretty much mostly how everything's been done. All the research has been done by delivering a new telomerase gene to the cell. Well, you can imagine that's not the safest thing to do. So you don't want to. You don't want to start infecting all of this. Now, we are working on trying to make gene therapy safe, but we're not there yet. It still requires years and years of clinical studies, but what I've been trying to do is bind, because our reproductive cells, because they produce telomerase. That means every cell in our body has the gene for producing telomerase. That gene is just shut off. Like I was talking about the epigenetics before the dimmer switch. Well, telomerase. There's a gene for telomerase. It's not just hair color, eye color. There's genes for everything. One of those genes is telomerase. It's actually on chromosome number five. A protein called a repressor binds to the dimmer switch and shuts telomerase off as soon as. As soon as we're conceived. Okay. Actually, before conceived. Okay. So we. So we start aging from the day we're conceived. And that. I never answered another question. When. When does telomere shortening start affecting us? From the day we're conceived. The second cells start dividing. We start experiencing changes because of telomere. So we have this Repressor, protein binding. So I, my research has been mostly on trying to find plant extracts, nutraceuticals, things like that, that can get inside of our cells. When you, when you take an, when you eat a plant or something like that, it's plants made up of hundreds of thousands of different chemicals. Okay? Those chemicals get into your stomach, they get absorbed into your blood, they migrate through the body, and they do things. Okay, well, we're looking for some of those chemicals that might actually get inside of our cells, just lodge that repressor and allow the telomeres to gene to turn on. So we have found a lot of things. We've tested like, I want to say 500,000 different chemicals, things like that, but mostly just for research studies. But we've also tested close to 20,000 different plant extracts. And I'm not talking about whole plants, because whole plants never work. Okay? There's always so many chemicals in there. There's gonna be things that might turn on the telomerase gene, but there's also gonna be things that might inhibit telomeres. So we have to do our fraction. We have to fractionate the plant extracts. We make an extract, then we separate it into different components based on size and charge and solubility and things like that. So we work with a company in New Zealand that makes these plant extracts for us. And for every plant, let's say pomegranate, they'll send us 20 different fractions of pomegranate and we'll test all 20. And in the case of pomegranate, we did find a fraction that did dislodge that repressor and turn on its farmer's chain 99% of the time. We find, we don't, we don't find any fractions to do, but we have found 40 or 50 now different fractions of plant extracts that do induce production of telomerase. Unfortunately, just not enough to lengthen. And there. I want to talk about the tug of war analogy again. I heard used a lot of different things, but telomere shortening is, and lengthening is like a tug of war. In our reproductive cells. You have shorteners that pull to shorten every time a cell divides. And you have lengtheners that pull to lengthen it back. Shorten, lengthen. This tug of war is going on, on and on. In our reproductive cells. The only thing the thing that lengthens is the enzyme telomerase. The things that shorten are the end replication problem, like I talked about before, but also free radicals, inflammation, anything, okay? So, so in our, in all the other cells of our body, because this repressor is shut off this former, we only have the shortener. So we have these shorteners pulling to shorten our telomers. Now, some of those shorteners are because of free radicals and inflammation. Some are due to the end replication problem. We can get rid of the ones that are causing accelerated telomere shorting, but we're still left with the ones that are shortening because of the end of replication problem. And that's what limits our lifespan to 125 years. We have now found plant extracts, fractions of plant extracts that can add people to the other side of the tug of war by inducing a little bit of telomerase. But we haven't gotten to the point yet of winning the tug of war. Okay? So, so shortens telomerase re lengthens a little bit, shortens further telomerase lengthens a little bit. So we're not reversing aging, but we sure are slowing it down, right? And that's really important. And maybe 20, 30 years from now, we're going to start finding people that exceed 125, especially if they've been leading a perfect lifestyle and have good genetics and things like that. Now, that said, we also know that when telomeres, the shorter a telomere gets, the easier it is to lengthen them, okay? And so in my books and a lot of my talks, I talk about how during this tug of war, and I'll actually show people pulling in each direction, okay? But the people pulling a shorten are falling off a cliff, okay? So the number of people shortening are decreasing and decreasing and decreasing the shorter the telomere gets. So you get to a point where even insufficient amounts of telomerase activity to reverse aging could at least lengthen those shortest telomeres. And so we are finding, but really right now can only amount to anecdotal responses. We are finding things of where people are seeing things that look like age reversal. It can only be explained by they had critically short telomeres in certain tissues or organs of their body. And something like something that produces a low level amount of telomerase will re lengthen those telomeres a little bit, causing the symptoms of age reversal. Okay? And those have been mostly noted with vision improvements, hair color coming back, hair coming back, endurance, people's endurance coming back, which is suggesting something related to muscle or heart function or something like that, having critically short telomeres someplace. And. But it can only work if the reason your vision went bad or the reason you lost your hair, your hair color change or is because of telomere shorts. But if it did happen, I do talk to people all the time. There are people that I know of, they're in their mid-90s, that are taking products to induce lengthening of their telomeres, and especially with the shorts. And I am seeing some major, I talk to them like once a week. I'm seeing major changes in them. Okay. And so I'm thinking that the older you are, or the, let's say I don't like older, the more longer lived you are. Life's about living, not getting older. The longer lived you are, the more critically short telomeres you're going to have throughout your body and the more positive results you're going to see from inducing telomerase expression.
- [35:56]
B
Got it. So. So you're. You're basically the worst off you are. The more response you're going to see if you're addressing the issue, is what you're saying. I mean, in short, let me ask you this. So how would you know, let's say somebody has heart disease, I'm just throw something out there, or cancer or any of major diseases. How would you know if the cause or contributor to said disease or issue was shortening of. Of telomeres? Would you be able to decipher that through testing or something that you observe or see? Or is it just kind of like a, A educated guess?
- [36:34]
A
No, no, actually, we have a lot of data like, like let's say baboon studies, things like that, where we have actually been able to check the cells of the heart, the cells lining the blood vessels, smooth muscle cells, endothelial cells, things like that. And we have shown a very high correlation between telomere length and heart disease. Same with cancer, brain issues, Alzheimer's, all these kind of things now. So, I mean, people could do this if they don't mind being super invasive. I mean, you can have an angiogram done and go in and take out some of the, carve out some of the endothelial cells and have your telomere length measured. It's. I wouldn't recommend it. It's. You can do it just like we did with the baboon models and things like that. But, you know, the bifurcation that exists like just above our legs, where the arteries and the veins and stuff like that are bifurcate to go to both legs. Well, at that bifurcation, like those blood vessel coming down, there's a V at that V. There's a lot of turbulence from all the blood. Just like there's turbulence at a river that suddenly you come to a fork in a river, there's a lot of turbulence in those areas. Well, that turbulence causes loss of endothelial cells that line the blood vessels. And so telomeres shorten at a faster rate there than elsewhere. And so a lot of the studies that we've done has been looking at the endothelial cells that amprecation. I'm probably getting more medical and technical than you probably want. It's like we do know, right? Yeah, like we're. The only unfortunate thing is the main way to measure telomere length is in blood. And cause blood is easy. You can also measure it in your. The cells lining your inside of your mouth and stuff like that. But it's. It's questionable how biologically relevant the cells inside your mouth are relative to your blood. But even there, I don't like the measuring biomarkers of aging inside your blood because the population of your blood is changing all the time. And so, and this, this makes a lot of products confusing to understand. So. So you can do things. You can do a therapy, you can get inside of a chamber, you can get inside of a box and get exposed to lights, you can try supplements, you can try diets, lifestyle things. And you can find that afterwards your telomeres in your blood are longer than they were before. Okay. But not because they got lengthened. The only way to show that they got lengthened is by showing that you had induction of telomerase expression. Because since I mentioned before, to is a way to lengthen telomerase. But what is really happening is if you do so in your blood, you don't have all your cells have the same telomeres. It's a tire bell distribution. You have cells in your blood that have short telomeres. You have cells in your blood that have long telomeres. And it's a bell curve kind of distribution. It all depends on how many times has that cell divided, how many times has that blood cell divided before them. Okay. And some have divided a lot, some have divided a few times. So you have a really mixed population. Now it also turns out that blood cells that have critically short telomeres or even short telomeres are more sensitive to toxins. So if you do something that's toxic to your body, you will actually preferentially kill the cells with the shortest telomeres. Well, as a result, the average length of your telomeres goes up. Okay. Just like if you've fired your dumbest employees in your company, the average IQ of your company goes up without any value. Be smarter. Okay? Right. It's so, so your telomere lengths can increase. And so a lot of people think they're increasing their telomere lengths because they do a product that's actually toxic. It's killing the cells, it's changing the population of the cells because it killed the cells with the short telomeres. And they think, well, their telomeres got longer, but they do, they didn't get lengthened. And the problem is that not only did they not get lengthened, other cells had to divide to replace those killed blood cells. And that causes telomere shortening. There's also cells in our bone marrow and elsewhere, immune cells that have really long telomeres. Even if you're 90 years old, you have cells called naive cells and memory cells held over from infections you got when you were a child that have long telomeres. And when you do something that's immunogenic and I'll take a product or do something that's immunogenic, you can induce those cells and start dividing and infiltrating the blood. So that makes again, makes your average telomere length longer without any lengthening, just as if you'd hired a bunch of geniuses for your company. The average IQ of the company got smarter without any, the average IQ of the company got higher without anybody getting any smarter. And so, so this is, this makes blood a really bad thing. I, I, I, I say everybody, you know, go ahead and get your telomeres measured, your DNA methylation measured, your igt glycosylation measured. All of those things are subjected to the same problems I just described for telomeres. Okay? The, the older cell is like the more the, you know, hydroge glycosylation or the methylation type of things will affect their, correlated with aging. Those cells are going to be preferentially killed by the toxins or these cells are gonna be induced with, from your bone marrow just with those and cause those markers to change too. So, so it's, I, I, I say the really only way to really test aging is what I call the Betty White test. Okay? I, you know, when you go into your doctor's office and you say, I wish somebody would make me younger, you're not asking the doctor to make your telomeres look longer in a blood test or make your DNA methylation patterns look younger in a blood test or your igg glycosylation look younger in a blood test. You want to look and feel and behave. 25 again.
- [42:51]
B
Damn right.
- [42:52]
A
So what I do is I show a picture of Betty White at a lot of my presentations at 25 and 85. And I just say, does anybody here not know which photo of Betty White was taken first? Because everybody knows. I mean, we don't have markers. We can't, nobody can point. If you took the 85 year old picture, erased the wrinkles, turned the hair color and got rid of the fat in the face, you would still know that that was the lighter picture. Why? We don't know. There's so many different things, so many markers that we can visualize. Just like when you walk down the street and you see somebody attractive of the opposite sex. Why, how does that, what is. That's called cognitive algebra. Okay? You are factoring a lot of different things subconsciously into an algebraic equation to come up with an answer. And that's how you determine that somebody's attractive in the opposite side. Same, same, same thing. For. How do you know when you walk down the street that somebody's in their 50s and somebody else is in their 20s? It's an algebra, it's an algebraic, cognitive algebra thing that's going on. And so I always say, and that's part of my reason why I studied psychology. So when I was an undergraduate, I got degrees in both biology and psychology because I wanted to really learn about measuring aging and things like that, like the artificial intelligence, cognitive algebra, things like that. Those are courses I was taking in the 1970s. Um, but so the Betty White test is really the only thing that matters. And so if somebody comes along and says they have a product that reverses your aging, and believe me, there's a lot of them that say that. Oh yeah, they, they're, they're not reversing their agent. They, they might be reversing some health factors, okay, that make that make you feel better and things like that. But they're not reversing your aging. The only way if, if they, if somebody says they have a product, reverse your aging, it's not true unless you pass the Betty White test. And nobody has ever passed the Betty White test. The exception might be Liz Parrish, who actually did go to a lot of extensive extremes to treat herself with gene therapy and stuff like that. And she's, she has, maybe has some signs of, actually has.
- [45:16]
B
Let me, let me ask you this because, like, in my area of more expertise that, that I've done for so long, human growth hormone is known as the fountain of youth and the anti aging, like names that get thrown around about it, which I know is BS personally, but you know, it, there are factors there that it helps to improve. Is there any correlation there between growth hormone, whether taken exogenously or released, you know, some other peptide that could release it in terms of like anti aging effects or is that totally different? Completely different side of things?
- [45:53]
A
You may or may not know that I'm actually one of the inventors of human growth hormone. Okay. So back in my early days working with Genentech, I was the person that figured out how to produce human growth hormone in bacteria in a, in a form that didn't cause immune reactions. Um, so, so I have a big knowledge of human growth hormone and yeah, very correlated with aging. But at the time we were only interested in making baby dwarfs. We had idea that it'd be an anti aging thing or a illegal sports enhancing drug. We did produce that. And so injections with human growth hormones work a hundred times better than any growth hormone releasing factor or peptide that induces, you know, those kind of things. But it's a lot more expensive. And so really successful bodybuilders and weightlifters and things like that are using authentic human growth hormone be injected even though it costs like $4,000 a month at least it used to. Maybe it's even more now. The peptides and stuff like that, they produce a small amount, which is actually probably good. I'm not going to say people shouldn't do it, but it's better than doing nothing. Okay, so human growth hormone. Keeping human growth hormone levels high is important. Just like a lot, keeping lot of hormones high, especially after you get in your 50s and 60s and stuff like that, especially postmenopausal women, things like that. It's important to be getting your, your hormones up to right levels. And there's really good doctors to be seen to do that. All right.
- [47:33]
B
Yeah, what I do, brother, that's what I do.
- [47:38]
A
Growth hormone does not reverse aging. In fact, it might actually accelerate aging.
- [47:42]
B
Okay, really?
- [47:43]
A
Yeah, because, because it induces cell division the way human growth hormone does is induces cell division. And cell division is going to cause telomere shortening. And, but here's something. And, and the same is true for microdermabrasion. Anybody, any woman or man who's treating their face with acids or lasers, it kills cells. It makes them look young. It's a boost of youth, but you're actually accelerating your aging because you're killing cells. Other cells have to divide to replace Those cells. Same is true for immune boosters. You're causing cell division. Immune boosters are accelerating telomer shorting.
- [48:18]
B
Wow.
- [48:18]
A
But here's the caveat. What's the point of living a long time if you're not living? Okay. I believe in taking human growth hormone. I don't take it. I'm more of a runner than I'm a bodybuilder. So. Yeah. Really feel it. But I do take some hormones too. To. Because I'm 73 years old now. So I. I'm trying to stay as healthy as I can. And. And there's definitely a decline of hormones. It definitely decreases health or in fact, cardiovascular disease too. So. But.
- [48:50]
B
Good point.
- [48:52]
A
I. I say. I say all the time. What's the point of living if you're not living long time? If you're not living. Do these things if that's how you enjoy living. And I will come through. I will have something. If I continue my research. The way it's going right now, I believe that we could have something that could really lengthen telomeres. Not just slow down the tug of war, but win the tug of war within three years from now and people will be able to find them. We haven't talked about this. You mentioned Touchstone. You work with Touchstone. I think Touchstone is the greatest company in the world. They are. I've been working with them for two years now too.
- [49:30]
B
Yeah.
- [49:30]
A
But they're. They're now selling a product that contains plant extracts. Fractions of plant extracts that I've discovered that will induce telomeres.
- [49:41]
B
Well, that's how I was blessed to meet you. Was through them. And. And that's where I was going to go with. And we're going to have to. I'm going to do a part two with you where we cover all of this product because it's so amazing. But let's do a little quick touch on it now.
- [49:54]
A
And I'm not a marketer. It's like, oh, no, that.
- [49:58]
B
That's not.
- [49:59]
A
No.
- [50:00]
B
You've never come across like that. But if. If something's been created or you've worked on something. That's why I even began to talk to them was because I am ridiculously particular about who I will associate with that's selling something. I. I just don't. I'm jaded. I've been doing this way too long. You know, 15 years in the supplement industry and around bodybuilders and everything. I don't. I've seen everything. So you can't really. Okay. Any Human can be tricked, but it's gonna be a lot harder with me. Right? And so this in particular and learning about this, this whole concept of telomeres and how it relates in our cellular health and aging, that's what enticed me to even say, okay, I got, I have to, I have to dig into this and I have to learn more. And listening to you today has enthralled me to the point of when we're done, I'm just gonna go read. Like on my Friday when I was supposed to be resting with my wife, I'm literally gonna get off here and go read because it's too intense and it's too amazing. This product I would like to touch a little bit on the makeup of it and why it, it can work. I wanna, we're gonna do a whole other episode right here.
- [51:18]
A
I use it, I have it every day. It's sitting here on my desk. So go ahead, talk about how it.
- [51:26]
B
How you came up with this or contributed to come up with it and why it's so effective.
- [51:32]
A
The idea of, in getting, finding things that would dislodge this repressor from the dimmer switch to let polymer stream turn on. That's been something we've been working on for years. We've developed high throughput assays that get run by robots. We have million dollar robots here actually in the room right behind me, on the wall right behind me, there's million dollar robots, not, not human looking robots. They're like on benches that robotically test plant extracts or anything that we want to test, including. We've tested mattresses, we've tested radiation, we've tested different wavelengths of light, things like that. But we test up to 4,000 different things a day with our robots. Fractions of plant extracts is one of the main things. So it takes about two days to get a result. But we've tested, like I said, close to 20,000 different plant extracts. And these assays, we have these high throughput assays. All they do is they measure how much a long race gets expressed in human cells. So we have human cells in petri dishes that robots even make. The cells culture the cells, let them incubate for 24 hours, then go ahead and add the different plant extracts to the cells, put them back in the incubator, bring them out of the incubator again, test them 24 hours later, or telomerase expression using what's called a PCR acid. And we have found several that reproducibly turn on the telomerase gene and the five best are in this product here. I don't know. Let me see if I can get that in the camera. Clear. But it's probably not clear enough. People can find it on their website. But the five top fractions of the plant extracts are in this product. And like, number one, the most potent that we've ever discovered is actually a fraction of turmeric that actually lacks curcumin. Okay.
- [53:41]
B
Really?
- [53:42]
A
Yeah. And there's a lot of studies suggesting that curcumin is actually a telomerase inhibitor. Okay. And so that's probably the explanation as to why, like, total turmeric won't work. Got it. Lacking curcumin does work. Now, we don't know what else is missing. We just know it's a fraction. We haven't gone and tested each of these fractions to find out what are the 2 to 20,000 different chemicals that are in there. It's just that we know that one of those is actually getting absorbed into your blood and inducing salon race expression. Wow. So. So the. And there's five others there. And the reason why we have five in there isn't just to make it look complicated. When I was talking about this repressor shutting off this dimmer switch, all of our studies, and this is one of the reasons why we use chemicals a lot, is to get or be able to design chemicals to study it more accurately. We are coming to the conclusion that there's actually more than one dimmer switch and more than one type of dimmer switch and more than one type of repressor shutting these dimmer switches off. And so we think that some of the reasons why we only get partial turning on is because we were only just lodging one of the repressors. So the idea is to take as many as we can, mix them together, in hopes that we're going to dislodge more than one. And it's right now very difficult for us to distinguish between which repressor is being dislodged. So right now, the gamble is by putting five of them in that there's going to increase the chances that we're repressing more than you repressing more than one.
- [55:27]
B
So how does this actually work, then? This product is, is it going to provide what we need to. To help with some of that shortening, or what is it going to do? And what would one potentially feel from taking it?
- [55:43]
A
Well, theoretically, people shouldn't feel anything because it's slowing down aging. I mean, and there's no way to measure the slowing of aging, but people are seeing things, including me, okay. And I'm not, I don't feel, I've been through so many clinical studies. I mean, way back, even with human growth hormone, erythropoietin beta seron, a whole bunch of different tissue plasma imaging activator, a whole bunch of drugs that I invented that have been through clinical studies. I know, not that I know. Placebo effects. I've seen. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I've seen people's cancers get cured. They were getting the placebo. Okay. And because they believed. Okay. Or something like that. So, so I, I'm not prone to placebo effects, but I've seen changes. Okay. And so I don't know what's going on, but it's so, so I believe that if we, if we are seeing any age reversal, it's gotta be doing. There's critically short telomeres in us that are getting a length of a little bit. You, you shouldn't see anything with this line of Asia. But I don't want to encourage people to take just this. Okay? I mean, I think, I think this is probably the most important thing or tied with the most important thing that anybody could be doing to slow down and possibly reverse their aging. But until we have something so potent that is actually winning the tug of war, I highly recommend doing everything you can to make your mitochondria healthy. I mean, energy, your loss of energy with age is mostly due to mitochondria dysfunction. Okay. So doing whatever you can and then like, NAD levels are going to help that. So I, I take my nicotine, my riboside every day, okay. Just to increase my NAD levels. I, I take the resveratrol. I, I, I do a lot of different things in addition to, if I had to, somebody told me I could only take one, it would be telovidal. But I'd be upset about the fact especially that I couldn't take something to help my mitochondria.
- [57:41]
B
That's my stack is the televital with might appear, which is urolithina. And that's what I'm doing. I'm 43 and I want to be feeling like in my 30s. And, you know, I, I found some things with my heart that I found earlier on. Blessed that I found it early. And these are the types of things that I know that need to be done to ensure that I'm not having poor quality of life in my 40s and 50s, when we should be enjoying it our most, you know, and I want to look good, feel good, and these, the things that you and I are talking about today are things that a lot of people are being more apt and keen to understand now, but really didn't think about a lot before. And I want to bring that to light, that these are things that can be done. You don't just have to go, oh, it's inevitable I'm going to age or this is going to happen. Well, if you think that way and live that way, then it's going to happen a lot faster. But you can do things like we're talking about to slow it, hopefully reverse it one day and live a hell of a lot better and happier life. And. And you and I are, you know, our mission is. We may come from different backgrounds and intellects, but our mission's the same. And you are one of the most intelligent guys I've ever seen and met. And I think, you know, letting people see that and, and understand it is going to make a huge impact. And that's why I'm so thankful to be talking to you about this. And I think that your work speaks for itself. But your delivery and your. The way that you are so positive and so joyful in the way you present it and it comes across so easy. I love it. It helps tremendously. And I think more people need to understand. You give all these tools, you give all of these ideas and thoughts, but like you said, the attitude and the way that we function mentally to play such a huge role in this. So it all has to come together. And I really appreciate your breakdown of this and the conveyance, because you speak with a lot of science, but you make it very easy to understand and follow. So I just, I really appreciate it.
- [59:51]
A
My goal is to extend my own lifespan. You said you're 40 something? I'm 43. I'm 73. Okay. I. I've been. And. And one of the most important things that I have been doing, besides trying to slow down the telomeres, is mitochondria health. And I. I've been studying mitochondrias in the lab since the 1970s. And, you know, I've very, very interested in the mitochondria theory of aging and how to reverse that and stuff like that. I think one of the best and the best thing that's ever come along is urolithin A. Okay. I think that that's because urolithin A is, is. Is responsible for the clearance and disposal of dysfunctional mitochondria. And that is something that when mitochondria start getting dysfunctional, especially if they're starting to produce a lot more free radicals, they need to get targeted for disposal. So I've studied that pathway a lot, and erolithin A is something that induces that pathway to get rid of the dysfunctional mitochondria. You also have to have mitochondrial biogenesis to replace those mitochondria, and that won't happen when telomeres are short. Okay. There's, well, lots of studies showing that mitochondria biogenesis depends a lot on long telomeres, especially genes called PGC1alpha1 and 2. Other genes, too. They're all encoded by the nuclear chromosomes, not the mitochondria DNA. And so telomeres affect the dimmer switches of these. Even the mitochondria. The proteins, the genes that produce the proteins that make up mitochondria encoded by.90% of the mitochondria is encoded by the nuclear chromosomes. Most people don't know this. And so the dimmer switches get turned on and off for, like, producing PGC1 Alpha that are involved in making new mitochondria. And so, so it's a combination. I mean, the best thing. I had to pick one thing, I'd be telovid. If I had to pick two things, it would be that it might appear okay. And it's because of the urolithin A. Yeah. Those two things are extremely important. Most studies you ever find on aging would talk about telomere shortening and mitochondria theories of aging.
- [62:17]
B
Ah, man. We're gonna have to do an entire thing discussing mitochondria and telomeres. And, and also, I'm obviously inviting you back to discuss the televital more and to go into that more because, I mean, I, I can't believe I've been talking to you this long. I feel like I've been talking to you five minutes. And that's part of what I love about this. So we're gonna make this a big series if you're, if you're good with that, because this is some of the most beneficial stuff I've ever heard, man.
- [62:45]
A
I, I would like. I, I enjoy talking to you. I, I would love. I do, too. And it's. Yeah, you're very knowledgeable about aging and health and things like that, and it's refreshing. I do a lot of podcasts, but it's. It's refreshing to talk to somebody that actually knows what I'm talking about, so.
- [63:05]
B
Oh, yeah, I'm enthralled, man. I don't. If you. I, I rarely, rarely Do a podcast where I'm taking notes, like literally writing notes down or looking stuff up as someone's talking to me. And you've seen me continuously do that. And so I have, I have study stuff here that I'm going to do when I'm done. And I'm going to be bugging you for information because I. This is what I do, man. I. I live this and I can't get enough. And what you're talking about is stuff that has. It's really been the shape or the scope of my work the past couple years. And you know, I. Having an expert to the level of your expertise is what I've been looking for. So I'm gonna bug you. But it's. It's all for a good purpose.
- [63:49]
A
My mission in life is to make the world happier and healthier. A great opportunity for me to be able to do that. You know, I, as you mentioned before, I was second place for national inventor of the year for my cancer research. The people that got first place were the people that invented the HIV protease inhibitor. So not a shabby thing to be second to them, but the. And this was a contest that included even new bicycle gear, shift knobs and new cameras and things like that. So this was a pretty prestigious award to get and it was because of my research in cancer. But I've also invented a lot of like treatments, therapies and stuff like that for heart disease, like tissue plasminogen activator with ripotin, thrombomodulin. And so we, I mean we could do it episodes on anything. Cancer, heart disease, Alzheimer's. I mean, these are subjects I spend a lot of time working on. This is my. I live this. I work every day. I'm in a building right now. I'm in a small closet sized office right now. But this is a 10,500 square foot facility filled with lab equipment to do just about everything. We don't do testing. People shouldn't come here to get blood work done. We do research, discover new things and stuff like that. I mean, it's addicting. I love the field, but.
- [65:11]
B
Yeah, well, I really, really, really, really appreciate your time. I can't explain to you in words how valuable this was to me and to everybody. And I think this is just the start of a long series and hopefully a long relationship I have with you, man, because I, I really, really, really valued this a lot. So, so I, I just want to thank you for this. But all of your years and years of sacrifice and research and Everything that you've given to all of us. And thank you for what you're going to do in the future because I know you're really just getting going, man. And I. I'm here to support you and help you however I possibly can and help you spread your word. So thank you so much for everything.
- [65:54]
A
Thank you for having me and giving me the opportunity to talk.
- [65:57]
B
Oh, yeah, yeah. So why don't you tell everybody where, where is a place to. Do you have any things that you put out, any content, anything for people to read, a website? Where can people follow you?
- [66:09]
A
Well, since I just do research, I'm not really good at keeping my website up to date. I. I don't market anything. I just have companies sometimes come to me and say they're very interested in the research I'm doing. Can they market some of the products that would benefit humans? And sometimes I say yes to that. Okay. Especially Touchstone Essentials. I was very impressed when Touchstone Essentials approached me. I. Forget it. Somebody recommended that they approach me. They approached me. We had a long talk. I was super impressed with them. And so we licensed these nutraceuticals to them that had really just been sitting on the shelf because they didn't reverse aging, which is what I really want to accomplish. But. Okay, so you can go to Touchstone's website. That's what. So it's thegoodinside.com I recommend going there because you can learn a lot about me and what I'm doing there. But my website is sierrasci.coms I e r r a s c I dot com. But they can also email me and that's probably the best thing to do. I'm really good because I, I love taking a. A rest break and responding to emails so people can email me. I respond to everything. And that my email address is b as in boy andrews sierra.com Again, that's S I E R R A S C I short for Sierra Sciences. We don't market anything. We just do research. We license things to other companies and they market them. And. And then so, you know, we do get a royalty from the different companies that are marketing products that we discovered here. We get a royalty that 100% of it goes into our research. Okay. Because that's all really I care about is getting research done to cure diseases. Not just aging, but everything.
- [68:09]
B
I love it, man. I really do. Well, awesome. I hope people take advantage of that. That you're very generous for giving out your email address. So thank you for this interview. And for everything and everybody, I want to encourage you to check out the touchstone website that Dr. Bill gave out. There's I'm going to link an opportunity to take advantage of a nice deal on the Tila Vital product and in the description. I stand by it, I'm using it, I'm a big advocate and proponent of it and I'm going to be talking a lot about it. And as you can see, I've already started to do so. Everybody, I appreciate your time and I really hope you found this extremely impactful. And we're going to have a several part series to this, so stay tuned for plenty more to come. Dylan Jelli and Dr. Bill Andrews signing off.
- [69:00]
A
Thank you. SA.